HKExpress further pay cut

[Ecam321]

News in today for UO FlightDeck. 20% pay cut for captains, 13% for Fo based on the basic salary of COS20. This is a “voluntary “ pay cut valid until end December 2021.

So an experienced Captain is now on 45K HKD pm and a low houred FO is on 17.4K HKD pm !! Pilots free to leave HK until December.

[ascalehero]

more to come for cx too then no doubt

[Mill Worker]

Whilst I sympathise with them, at least the are not getting the sack like hundreds at CX shortly...

[Ecam321]

Agreed, UO gets a lifeline until December 31st, albeit the guys are now deep into survival mode.

[Dragon Pacific]

How many there are on work visas?

[viking avenger]

If one was to leave till December, they better not leave anything valuable behind.

[volare_737]

Dragon Pacific

I think many as UO only expanded in the last few years. I am one of them ! But as somebody said above we still got a lifeline until December and some money for Food ! At least we can go home and become real Bus drivers ! :} Anybody interest renting a nice two bedroom furnished apartment ?

[smogluver]

Sorry guys, can’t wait to see the end of this :mad:

[Ecam321]

Dragon Pacific

I would guess more than 50% of the pilots are on work visa.

The work visa issue hasn’t been addressed at all, no communication at all, from the company regarding this. Either they’ve got there head in the sand hoping it will all go away or they don’t care or some deal is being done behind the scenes.

[LLLQNH]

Dragon Pacific

From a reliable source: Management are very worried about the work permit situation at UO as around 75% are work permit holders.

[krismiler]

UO is in a much better position than CX as the short haul low cost sector will recover well before the long haul premium hub airlines. Belt tightening for the next half year would indicate some form of plan in place in anticipation of recovery and implies jobs will be retained. Subject of course to work visa renewal.

Next month CX are likely to do what EK did this time last year, mass layoffs will be required as there is no end in sight. CX have done extremely well to hold out as long as they have in the hope of an upturn, especially as they lack the government backing enjoyed by EK and SQ. Even with this backing, major layoffs were made a year and half a year ago respectively.

CX pilots would be wondering what criteria would be used in deciding who gets the chop, anyone with a substantial amount of sick leave must be very worried as this was one of the main factors used at EK.

[gulliBell]

You mean they get rid of the healthy pilots who have accumulated a lot of sick leave? Out of fear they might get sick in the future and start taking all that sick leave?

[krismiler]

No, it means any pilot who has taken a higher than average amount of time off due to illness would be worried. In EK this included time accumulated due to having had cancer or having been pregnant.

CX have had much more time to work out the computer program which trawls through the personnel files looking for markers so it should be a bit more sophisticated and consider a wider range of factors such as warning letters, check rides, safety incidents etc.

[Rie]

Friends sent me a copy of the message. It seems like anyone is free to leave Hong Kong but give up their housing allowance for the pleasure. Race to the bottom...

[Curry Lamb]

It’s 2025. In fierce competition with Greater Bay Airlines, HK Express, the low low cost arm of China Pacific (formerly known as Cathay Pacific), announces further pay cuts for pilots. Captains are now earning HKD 25k per month, and FOs 12.5k per month (after tax).

As quoted by one pilot who, who shares a 750 sqft “condo” in Tung Chung with 5 other pilots, and who prefers to remain anonymous:

“It absolutely :mad: being a pilot in Hong Kong, but somebody has to do the dirty work!”

Sounds far fetched? Many a true word was said in jest. You read it here first.

[Jnr380]

As I tend to agree with this statement, no experienced Pilot will work for pay that low and no insurance company in the world is going to insure a jet with an inexperienced crew

[veritas777]

no insurance company in the world is going to insure a jet with an inexperienced crew

Except you know, every country in the world (except the US) that has cadetships and pilots sitting in the right seat at 250 hours...

[Curry Lamb]

Jnr380

You’d be surprised for how much (or how little) pilots whore themselves out nowadays.

In India they probably fly for a sack of basmati and at Bamboo Air they’re on 500 USD a month.

[lucille]

Jnr380

I think you’re wrong on both counts.

I recall chatting with Tu-154 crews in the ‘80s and early ‘90s on $400/month and no allowances and sleeping on their aircraft for a few days on end. Anecdotally, expat crews in Vietnam today are likewise not being overpaid.

As for insurance? They simply adjust the premiums to match the risk.

Manufacturers, management and infrastructure are all conspiring to devalue experience. They’re succeeding.

[Rie]

I remember speaking to a couple of Spanish ATR pilots who were working in Cuba in the mid 00's. The pay was horrible. If memory serves me correctly it was around $300US a month. But the experience was supposedly good.

This is by choice though. What UO is doing is not choice. It is squeezing people into a corner. First it was COS21 with a cut that halved CX pay. Now another cut to "help"

Even if flying went back to normal would the pay scale ever really return? Inflation keeps rising so how will a pay scale going backwards be justifiable if they need to keep a respectable level of experience in their ranks. Just look at some of the other airlines in the region who hire for a pittance. Safety records will always be lowered.

[FlightDetent]

I recall chatting with Tu-154 crews in the ‘80s and early ‘90s on $400/month and no allowances and sleeping on their aircraft for a few days on end. Don't underestimate the inflation and power of living cost. Those 400 USD probably were around 5x the median income where their families lived then, plus running a SoHo export-import (sewing machines was a big thing) one could easily double the value before kissing the wife.

6x median would be 8000€ net across the EU these days, as widely as the region differs. Not sure about your place.

[krismiler]

I recall chatting with Tu-154 crews in the ‘80s and early ‘90s on $400/month​​​​​​

In Russian terms at that time, it was pretty good money and with the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of 1991 the economy was in dire straits. Dodgy operators with beat up old Antonovs were undercutting western companies throughout the third world.

Even if flying went back to normal would the pay scale ever really return ?​​​​​​

Usual case of supply and demand, domestically China isn't too bad and some expats have returned, BUT on local rates. The days of an A320 Captain going straight onto an A330 and doubling his pay are over for the foreseeable future. The zero dollar flag chasers will return a lot sooner than business travellers flying SYD - LHR via HKG in the premium cabins. CX will probably downsize into a regional operator with a few long haul routes, similar to the unmentionable in Abu Dhabi. It is quite possible that Cathay could go out of business altogether, they have no domestic network to fall back on in the way that QF and airlines in the USA have, and they lack the government backing enjoyed by EK and SQ. The gap left could easily be filled by the mainland Big 3 with HKG being a virtual hub and most of their costs being at cheaper mainland rates . Having Air China operating long haul flights from the city is a real stamp of authority. HKG is well positioned as a hub, has an award winning airport and the city is an attractive stop over option. At one stage, prior to COVID, China Southern was the cheapest option for Sydney - London. Having CX go under and dividing the pie up among the mainland airlines could be an attractive option in Beijing.

[Dragon Pacific]

I wonder where UO fits in that scenario Kris; sold to BGA?
By the way GBA waited until the UO paycut to announce their salary or it would have been very similar, now it is 20% more. Capt 55k plus 25k special allowance plus 500 an hour up to 50hrs and a bit more after that. Tread water in HK if you are lucky.

[krismiler]

Greater Bay have applied for 104 route licences and currently have 3 ? B737s and expect 30 within 5 years. Many Chinese airlines manage dual A320/B737 fleets so it's not impossible. UO could be spun off as a separate entity for the flag chasers or merged as a going concern.

[Jnr380]

Most keep forgetting at the height of the shortage, Regional Airlines in the US upped their pay significantly and Vietnam airlines also increased their pay.

Everything happens in a cycle, demand and supply, in today’s day and age, people are starting to value their time and skills.

A pilot now will take a job for next to peanuts if it means that it keeps them current, but this is in the short term. In about 5 years time, this problem won’t exist and the pilots will move around to the company that pays more than the other one with the obvious of trade-off of seniority protection and time till command till the next pandemic/economical crash/recession.

UO and CX will struggle to attract Quality pilots and that’s when the pay creeps up.

I remember writing a post in 2008 or whatever on Pprune, commenting on how the industry will recover and there will be shortage, the amount of abuse I copped and how wrong I was was astounding.

[Curry Lamb]

UO and CX will struggle to attract Quality pilots and that’s when the pay creeps up.



I’m not gonna hold my breath on that one!

(No pun intended)

[freightdoggiedog]

Jnr380

Arguably (from a CX pilot perspective at least) you were. In the years following 2008 we didn’t even manage to keep up with inflation, and saw progressively worse contracts imposed on new joiners, starting with HKPA replacing housing in 2010 and culminating in COS18.

The shoving of that last “contract” down our throats represents a paycut of +40% for most who were here in ‘08, a loss of PFund closer to 60%, a slashing of the schooling allowance and most of all the removal of housing assistance (in the city with the world’s most expensive accommodation). The result is an astounding cut of well over 50% of our remuneration: there’s no coming back from that, ever.

[Jnr380]

From a time line perspective, no pilot was forced to sign COS08 (local) / C scale. But 2020 we had no option. Management took a gamble and it played in their favour, simple. This was also the time there was glut in the industry. Still as the industry recovered, no one was really leaving CX, so C scale wasn’t that bad overall.

Im not good at predicting the future but the way my seniority number has shot through the roof the last 9 months. Something will give either way.

But I’ll shut up now as this is a UO thread and it seems to be getting Highjacked by CX again.

Anyways, l feel for UO crew (as I know many of them) were already feeling the pinch on the new contract and weighing up options now they’re decision to stay and go has already been made for them.

Not to mention the added complexity of Immigration,

[pfvspnf]

Hke will close down like dragon ? Or stay open forever

[AusTronaut]

So, just to be on the same page, the guys that work for the LCC are complaining about their low salaries when they can go back to their countries, and enjoy the weather while getting paid for doing nothing? Is that so?
What about the thousands of other great guys that are back in their countries with NOTHING?
Let's try to call things by their name!

[Rie]

Please go on and tell everyone how someone can leave a country where they are expected to be working in, paying rent, school fees for children, the pure membership for their wife to return to their home country and pay more rent and living costs when they are paid HKD$17.4k per month? I know you are trying to troll but you have to look at this objectively for the industry. This is a company taking advantage of a situation to bring down the costs not for a pandemic but the future. Scaring people into signing something is not ever going to be great no matter where the job is located.

If you are an Australian then your brethren who are stood down are in a very unfortunate situation but your domestic travel possibilities mean a return to the cockpit is likely. Those fired have had to find other jobs and eventually may return to a cockpit once the hiring gated are opened.

[krismiler]

Have you ever tried getting an airline job in Australia ? In normal times it's extremely difficult, at the moment with all the stood down pilots and those forced to return home it's going to be impossible for years. There is a reason why so many Aussie pilots are working abroad.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

So, just to be on the same page, the guys that work for the LCC are complaining about their low salaries
So, just to be on the same page, please tell me how many of the people posting on here actually work for said LCC.....

[Rie]

Technically we are all the same group now. What happens in one affects the other. This is just a precursor to what's next.

[mngmt mole]

Absolutely correct.

[dabz]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x270/2wkaaztdhllcn4svrf7y5eappgyys77hocrcqm7aqj0_325e1589ad79ad5a 51b186b4731dfb5639ce18bd.jpg

[volare_737]

AusTronaut

A captain going home and still paying for his apartment in HK is basically left with just under 20K HKD ! Sure it is some money but won't get you far. If you have kids you definitely have to rob your savings !

[noboloco]

Whilst it is sad state, should still be grateful for still having a job and receiving any sort of income despite not working for well over a year. Can always sell their apartment in Hong Kong or cancel the rental contract and go home. They would be in a worse off situation if HKE just fired them all. Do you think pilots in places like Aus are any better off when QF just makes them all redundant, these people still have mortgages and rents to pay too, and mouths to feed.

[AusTronaut]

Please go on and tell everyone how someone can leave a country where they are expected to be working in, paying rent, school fees for children, the pure membership for their wife to return to their home country and pay more rent and living costs when they are paid HKD$17.4k per month?
HKD17.4k, who? and for what? an FO with less that 1.5kTT for living in his own country?
and the captain that gets, HKD45k, for staying in his homecountry? by the way increased to HKD68k if staying in HK, once again, for doing NOTHING!
When the average salary in Aus is less than 5000AUD (HKD29k) but to get one of those, man you need to work! Oh, yeah I forgot down in Australia, we don't pay rent, of school fees, and money grows on my backyard trees.

I know you are trying to troll but you have to look at this objectively for the industry. This is a company taking advantage of a situation to bring down the costs not for a pandemic but the future. Scaring people into signing something is not ever going to be great no matter where the job is located.

I agree with you. But I, like many others, have to work to get a similar salary. And please don't forget all the pilots that got the chop, how much are they getting paid?
So please call everything by its proper name.

I am sorry to hear they are getting a pay cut, but they still have a job, and most of them are getting paid for staying at home.

[Jnr380]

noboloco

The difference between being an ex-pat and a local is day and night.

As a local (e.g QF pilots) they can get other jobs in their home country as an instructor or driving a tram/train/bus or working in a warehouse to tie them over till they find another aviation job or another career.

As an expat, it’s next to impossible to get a job if you don’t speak the local language or get anyone to sponsor your visa, you’re just as good as stuffed

[AusTronaut]

I could not agree more

So, let's pay the expats twice the money the locals get, ohhhh no, let's pay them three times as much, and give them our wives and sisters!

I do agree sometimes being an expat sucks! but it was our option, no one pointed a gun at us to move to a different country and we are welcome to leave at any time. If you are still there is because you like it, or going back is a worse option, companies know that and they DO take advantage. It is called globalization and free market. Or we don't like it when we suffer from it, but we love it when thanks to it we can get a cheap latte...
And if I remember correctly HK is not known for its friendly labor laws, so one has to ask, "why are you still there, mate?"

[Angel 8]

Jnr380

Well there’s a thought. Do you now wish that you weren’t as snobby for not learning the language of the country that supported you all those years?
Or was it: if you speak English, you’re above everyone that doesn’t!

[Rie]

HKD17.4k, who? and for what? an FO with less that 1.5kTT for living in his own country?
That’s not total time. There are ex CX guys there who have probably 4-5000hrs on that money. They just have turboprop not jet experience.
You seem like you have been through some bad stuff in your responses. Did HK screw you in the pandemic?

[mngmt mole]

The biggest trap in working for CX was the fact that they always had the opportunity to hire from any part of the world they choose. It was never a problem in the 80's, 90's or even the 00's...but now they have concluded that the experience and value of the expat pilots is no longer needed, you have the result of COS18 (and more to come no doubt...). If you work for an American airline, they can only hire Americans. You at least can't have your career undermined by low paid foreigners. CX is now a dead-end for any expat that fondly remembers how it once was. There is no possible reason for a westerner to commit them and their families to this company. It is time to leave if you can...

[RAT Management]

There's the door.

[Jnr380]

Angel 8

I never said anything about being speaking English means you’re above anyone else. It’s not only about learning the language but also visa requirements.

If their pay is cut, to make it unliveable, they can’t exactly ask the government for financial support or subsidised housing.

If they decide to change jobs, then they’ll need to find an employer who will sponsor their visa and most positions (depending on your qualifications and experience) may require the ability to read and write Canto/Mandarin.

If they can start their own businesses to sustain them, then good on them.

[krismiler]

Back in the old days, CX pilots came from a fairly small range of countries with Britain and Australia well represented. Americans less so due to relations with communist China. It was sometimes described as an old colonial club, and membership was hard to obtain. With the "A" scale they could afford to very fussy about who they took and if your face didn't fit then you weren't accepted. If you got in then it was a career airline and you stayed until retirement.

Airlines in the Middle East couldn't be so choosey as even though the money was good, the location and lifestyle weren't so desirable. Gulf Air and Saudi Arabian needed to have a much longer list of acceptable countries in order to attract the talent they needed.

CX has simply joined the list of airlines you can go to if you can't get a decent job at home. When air travel returns it may another contract job, similar to Turkish or Vietnam, if the airline survives as an independent entity.

[SaulGoodman]

even back then for the British, Irish, Australian, New Zealand, American, German, French, Dutch, Belgian pilots CX wasn’t their first choice. It might have been a decent option, but hardly ever a first choice..

but then again, this thread was about HKE...

[AusTronaut]

As I said, it's all a matter of perspective. And if you run the numbers, getting paid for doing nothing is quite a good deal!
So as long as CX keeps all this "fat" they will lose money, not my money, the HK gov money. And where did that money come from? And who is getting the salaries?
Once again, let's not lose sight of it. Getting paid to stay at home when local people have to work to earn far less. Just saying

[kittywon]

Nice analysis Krismiler, but you went off track a little bit.
Back in the old days CX ONLY hired from British Commonwealth nations which number 54.
And you had to be white.
Americans from the United States were not less so hired due to US relations with Commie China. They were simply NOT hired because of perceived cultural difference in attitude to flying. Same with Canadians because management thought that they were too much like Americans. I can understand that, they sound the same on the R/T.
It took a major fleet expansion and a shortage of pilots for management to scratch their heads to come up with a solution. It took a senior management pilot - ex RAF - who trained in Canada under the NATO pilot training plan to testify that the RCAF was set up by the RAF .Hence the same training ideology and culture as the other commonwealth nations air forces which were set up by the RAF. Thus the door opened to Canadians.
Boers from SA were excluded after some were hired. CX then mandated that a British passport was required from SA. If your grandfather was born in the UK - you are entitled to A UK passport.
CX also exclusively only hired ex-military to the tune of 95% of the pilots on strength. The average age of hire was 35 years of age reflecting several military tours of flying. So CX was not even a consideration for pilots with a civilian background. For the very few non ex military, you had to be very exceptional to be hired.
For ex-military, it was the ONLY place to go after the air force where you were paid according to your previous experience and you jumped into the RHS of a wide body immediately. The alternative was to join another airline at the bottom of the seniority list and be paid the same as 20 year old new joiners and fly puddle jumpers.
After 3 years in CX my after tax salary was greater than the after tax salary of all senior pilots in the rest of the world baring management pilots. A-scale : Superior working conditions , pension plan and benefits to every other airline except Swissair, and we know what happened to them.
So CX was not just another airline you could go to if you couldn’t get a decent job at home. It was the ONLY airline to go to as an ex airforce pilot from the British Commonwealth to get ahead in life and to have a very rewarding career after serving the crown.
Little wonder that CX could pick and choose from filing cabinets chock full of applications from ex Air Force pilots. At one point there were enough Ex Red Arrows to make up 3 teams. I suspect that the same holds true for ex Snowbirds from Canada. Applications from those who trained in the civilian world were for the most part : ignored.
My, how times have changed!

[ascalehero]

cool story, i joined with 250 hours and we are now on the same contract so that must hurt your ex airforce ego
by the way, what does all this have to do with HK express pay cuts?

[AusTronaut]

Well it has to do, cause when the company does not value the experience anymore, and low time pilots join, or pilots with shady credential, was it UO that had a french gentleman as an examiner who was not even a captain to begin with? Then of course they can lower the contract, where are you going to go with your 250 hours? or a logbook full of "Parker 52" time?
Do you see the connection or you are still need more hours?

[smiling monkey]

Curry Lamb

The Uber driver taking you to the airport earns more than that.

[KAPAC]

The passenger pays more for the Uber than for the ticket . So can’t complain .

[CodyBlade]

You think Co. cares about the diffrence between highly exprience ex airforce and 250hrs ?."We assume the risk and we are insured anyways".

[Klimax]

So glad I left this clown company back in 2008. 4.5 years was enough. Cathay Pathetic was an average experience, Hong Kong was a good experience, leaving Cathay was an excellent experience. I wish the best of luck to all pilots in Hong Kong, I still have a lot of old friends at CX (HK express is after my time) - they deserve better.

[Drc40]

ascalehero

Most of the posts are similarly off topic, so what? Sorry your base is closing in Vancouver but no need to crap on him for making a good point. Sheesh 🙄

[Meikleour]

kittywon: I joined CX in the early 1980s when the fleet was only 17 aircraft. At the time the policy was to ideally hire pilots who were at least 30 and up to 40 years.
Now this meant that one had to have had an earlier career either civilian or military thus although there was a heavy bias of ex-service pilots the vast majority of them came from other airlines which they had joined after service - very few came directly to CX from the squadron.

A more accurate observation would be that CX exploited the various pools of aircrew available from numerous airline failures. The seniority list reads like a "whos who" of airline failures. There was one American skipper Roger S but he had worked for BahamasAir which was a Swire owned company. The Australian pilots strike yielded many many highly experienced pilots then in '89 in Canada both CP and Wardair folded so the company again sought to exploit the pool of ready crews. Once the word got out in Canada that the gig wasn't too bad after all then the floodgates of applications started.

In the early days it was simply much easier to get the HK CAD to validate licences from the UK, Aus and NZ.

As the old saying used to go : " to qualify for CX you had to have had three previous airline careers or two ex wives to support!"

[CodyBlade]

Superior working conditions , pension plan and benefits

And I guess it was a Swire contract.

[krautland]

HKD45k in HKG. How? Just how?

Usual case of supply and demand, domestically China isn't too bad (...) CX will probably downsize into a regional operator with a few long haul routes(...) possible that Cathay could go out of business altogether, they have no domestic network to fall back on (...) and they lack the government backing (...0 Having Air China operating long haul flights from the city is a real stamp of authority.

Right on all accounts. There is zero love for CX in Beijing and the domestic mainland market is back in full force. Then again, CX immediate demise has been predicted many many times. The next few months should be very interesting.

[AusTronaut]

If you work for the LCC, do not worry, you will be safe! You will get your pension for doing nothing, and you can all go back to your countries or stay in HK. And even with your 250h or your P52 time you can get a salary. You can all thank the HK government and the Swire family.
Meanwhile on the "green" side they will continue to brag about their lives with older contracts.
Congratulations to the guys in purple, being quiet and under the RADAR have made you quite wealthy in your home countries. But last stop is near, careful!

[krismiler]

CX have just raised US$650 million and more would certainly follow if a sustained recovery was becoming clearly visible. However, the investors won’t put up money just to maintain the status quo and would want to see a survival plan in place which would have to include reducing the present cash burn and restructuring into a entity which would be profitable in the post COVID era.

This would almost certainly involve a reduction in the workforce and a downsizing of the network. In September last year SQ laid off staff, and the fleet going forward has shifted to operating smaller types with the B737, B787 and A350 being the workhorses. The B777 and A380 are mostly grounded with only 2/3 of the A380s planned to return. New B777 orders are in place, but these are only for delivery beyond 2025/6.

There is a great deal of similarity between CX and SQ so it’s likely that CX will follow SQ’s lead.

[Freehills]

krautland

Well above the average household income in HKG (27k) so obviously possible

[BuzzBox]

Perhaps so, but something like half the population lives in government-subsidised housing.

[pfvspnf]

I like this company , what is the salary here ? When is hiring ?

[Rie]

Sorry but unless you are Brazilian there are no jobs.

[Jnr380]

Or at least able to speak Portuguese fluently, they let you fly their shiny new buses in exchange that you’ll happy accept complements as a form of payment

[pfvspnf]

when it will go bankrupt like the dragonfly ?

[Rie]

when it will go bankrupt like the dragonfly ?
When will you start worrying about your own country? Get the facts straight about Dragon first.

[lee_apromise]

When will you start worrying about your own country? Get the facts straight about Dragon first.

You know he is a well known troll on pprune right?

[Bokpiel]

when it will go bankrupt like the dragonfly ?

I ArE bAbOon.

English ICAO level 2....max.