NI soldiers aquitted

[NutLoose]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56942056

The trial opened last Monday and heard a day of evidence before moving to the issue of whether statements and interviews given by the ex-soldiers would be admissible.

The court was told that evidence implicating the soldiers came from two sources - statements given to the Royal Military Police in 1972 and interview answers given to the HET in 2010.

The PPS accepted that the 1972 statements would be inadmissible in isolation, due to deficiencies in how they were taken including that the soldiers were ordered to make them and they were not conducted under caution.

However, prosecutors argued that the information in the 1972 statements became admissible because they were adopted and accepted by the defendants during their engagement with the HET in March 2010.

However, the judge said it was not legitimate to put the 1972 evidence before the court "dressed up and freshened up with a new 2010 cover".

He questioned why the HET's re-examination did not prompt a fresh investigation by the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI), with the veterans interviewed under caution.

The judge suggested that course of action might have made a prosecution more sustainable.

[charliegolf]

Hopefully, the CPS, Historic Crimes Lot et al, will see no prospects of a conviction anywhere else as a result of this judgement.

CG

[NutLoose]

Both soldiers were interviewed by a police legacy unit, the Historical Enquiries Team (HET), in 2010 and it was this evidence that formed a substantial part of the prosecution's case.

The judge ruled this evidence as inadmissible and the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) on Tuesday confirmed it would not appeal against that decision, meaning the case could not proceed.

After the prosecution confirmed it would be presenting no further evidence in the case, the judge told both former soldiers: "In the circumstances Mr A and C I formally find you not guilty of the charge of murder."


Agreed CG, I read that as unless you come up with new evidence in any future cases, don't bother.


..

[Asturias56]

It'll come round again in 5 years - these things always do - it suits too many people to let it lie.

If the Americans/Turks/Armenians can get worked up 110 years after events this one still has years to run.

[Training Risky]

Good news for veterans...makes a change!

I'll keep an eye out over the next 50 years for Snowdrops or Monkeys with nothing better to do, walking up my garden path to question me over 'historic crimes' for my tiny part in Telic and Herrick!:mad:

[Two's in]

It'll come round again in 5 years - these things always do - it suits too many people to let it lie.

If the Americans/Turks/Armenians can get worked up 110 years after events this one still has years to run.

Unlike Turkey, nobody has ever claimed the NI "troubles" simply did not happen, or that the 3,500 lives lost during that period were largely "self-inflicted".

The Armenians and many other nations are "worked up" that the Ottoman Empire slaughtered over 1 million civilians and have continued to deny that fact for over 100 years. Not only do they deny it, but they blame the Armenians for their own demise, all because the Turkish State was founded on the displacement and slaughter of these people during WW1. To accept the truth would lay bare the lie of how the Turkish state was formed, so it's not going to happen. But denying something doesn't stop it being an unpalatable fact of life.

Not quite apples and apples here.

[DHC4]

Do you think we will ever get the truth around the level of collusion between paramilitary organisations and the state forces, when you look at the Miami Showband massacre and what happened in Ballymurphy. These were totally innocent people who were murdered and yet no one is going to be held accountable, Stephen Travers is a good guy and he has spent his life after the murder of his band mates trying to get the truth. It can’t be that hard to release the documents, unless there is something to hide.

[Asturias56]

Two's in - I have Armenian relatives - I hear the story regularly. My point is that Armenians still bear an enormous grudge against Turkey after 100 years - I'm sure the same happen with some people in N Ireland

[Asturias56]

"Do you think we will ever get the truth around the level of collusion between paramilitary organisations and the state forces,"

I doubt it - far too sensitive

[kendrick47247]

"Do you think we will ever get the truth around the level of collusion between paramilitary organisations and the state forces,"

I doubt it - far too sensitive

Far too much embarrassment and blood on the hands of the British government

[Two's in]

Two's in - I have Armenian relatives - I hear the story regularly. My point is that Armenians still bear an enormous grudge against Turkey after 100 years - I'm sure the same happen with some people in N Ireland

Well, given the Battle of the Boyne was in 1690, I think yours is a safe prediction.

[Geordie_Expat]

Far too much embarrassment and blood on the hands of the British government

For someone who lives in London, you really spend a lot of time slagging off Britain and the British.

[kendrick47247]

For someone who lives in London, you really spend a lot of time slagging off Britain and the British.

:confused: Please let me know my new address so I can update others

[NutLoose]

Your location says London.
Of course that could be

London, England, a city in the United Kingdom
London, Ontario, a city in Canada
London, Belize, a village
London, Equatorial Guinea, a village
London, Finland, a section of Jakobstad
London, Kiribati, a small city on Kiritimati
London, Nigeria, a village
London, Limpopo, a village in South Africa
London, Mpumalanga (Noordprovincie) in South Africa
London, Mpumalanga (Graskop) in South Africa

In the United States:
London, Conecuh County, Alabama, an unincorporated community
London, Montgomery County, Alabama, an unincorporated community
London, Arizona, an unincorporated community
London, Arkansas, a city
London, California, a census-designated place
London, Indiana, an unincorporated community
London, Kentucky, a city
London, Michigan, an unincorporated community
London, Minnesota, an unincorporated community
London, Missouri, an unincorporated community
London, Ohio, a city
London, Richland County, Ohio, an unincorporated community
London, Oregon, an unincorporated community
London, Pennsylvania, an unincorporated community
London, Tennessee, an unincorporated community
London, Texas, an unincorporated community
London, West Virginia, an unincorporated community
London, Wisconsin, an unincorporated community.

https://www.funtrivia.com/askft/question65328.html

[kendrick47247]

Your location says London.
Of course that could be:-

.

https://www.funtrivia.com/askft/question65328.html

Haha! Good shout, I was unaware of the location on here.

Got a laugh from me NutLoose

[NutLoose]

It's in the bar on the left under your name :)

[kendrick47247]

It's in the bar on the left under your name :)

Must be a desktop v mobile quirk :ok:

[DHC4]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-56986784

John Teggart, son of Daniel Teggart, said: "I want to speak directly to the people of Britain at this moment. Can you imagine what would happen if the British soldiers murdered 10 unarmed civilians on the streets of London, Liverpool or Birmingham?

"What would you expect, an investigation? Would you expect justice? Or would you be happy for them to get an amnesty?"

[jayteeto]

The news didn’t really report the fact that the soldiers were under fire from the IRA that day.
I also think that there would be less arguments if the IRA members had not been given amnesty letters. Things have to be balanced for justice to take place

[kendrick47247]

The news didn’t really report the fact that the soldiers were under fire from the IRA that day.
I also think that there would be less arguments if the IRA members had not been given amnesty letters. Things have to be balanced for justice to take place

“She acknowledged the Army was coming under fire from gunmen in the area at the time, but she concluded the use of force against the deceased was "clearly disproportionate".
She said they were innocent, unarmed and were "posing no risk." “

I took that from the same article that was linked...

What should the defence for the soldiers be then? Inability to differentiate between enemy and civilians?
Pretty poor of the British army to have sent them to a war zone when they weren’t adequately prepared then.

”deceased were unarmed and were not acting in any way of threat. No arms were found on or near the deceased and there was no evidence of gunshot residue that satisfied evidential standards," Mrs Justice Keegan said.”

[DHC4]

The news didn’t really report the fact that the soldiers were under fire from the IRA that day.
I also think that there would be less arguments if the IRA members had not been given amnesty letters. Things have to be balanced for justice to take place

Who’s fact was it that the soldiers were under fire, certainly not from people living in that area. They did not want the IRA there, this is the same battalion how ended up in Derry a few weeks months later and guess what happened there. As for you point about arguments, in a court of law these people were found to be innocent, they were murdered.


Have a look at this doco https://youtu.be/2ANOsYa1ZOU

[OJ 72]

Having grown up in Northern Ireland during the 'Troubles' you may think that I have a less than objective POV. Nevertheless, having (much later) achieved a MLItt in Irish Politics, one thing that my Professor instilled into me was to view both sides of the argument objectively and without any emotional baggage, so here goes.

What you have to remember when the British Army was sent onto the streets of NI in August 1969 to relieve a beleaguered RUC they were totally unprepared for what they found. At that stage the army's main training was to turn back the marauding Warsaw Pact hordes as they swarmed across the Inner German Border, and not to keep two warring tribes apart as they fought, what appeared to many, the continuation of the Thirty Years War. Northern Ireland was truly a place apart. Part of the UK, but fundamentally different from GB.

I can remember Army patrols around our estate stopping people and asking for directions, because they couldn't read maps of built up, urban areas! This was long before the pre-NI Deployment training package that was developed over the years.

When members of the Parachute Regiment came under fire in Ballymurphy in 1971 and Londonderry in 1972, rightly or wrongly, they reverted to their training and returned fire. What should be recalled is that these events occured only 26 years after the end of the Second World War, and many of the Parachute Regiment's SNCOs and WOs undoubtedly had fought at Arnhem and other major campaigns...so they did what came naturally to them. Those who opened fire on them, and attacked them with blast and petrol bombs were not playing by any 'gentlemanly' rules of warfare, and, as always, they gave scant regard to what would happen to innocent members of the local population when the Security Forces returned fire. Indeed, the loss of innocent civilians played well into the Republican Movements' nascent (and ultimately very effective) propaganda campaign in GB, Europe and most effectively in 'Irish America' (sic).

Was it right in the Ballymurphy and Londonderry scenarios? It was not, and unfortunately innocent lives were lost. Can I understand it? Of course I can. Northern Ireland in the early 1970s was truly a very dangerous place. I can remember my town centre being bombed and my primary school headmaster (an ex-Coastal Command Sunderland pilot) was targeted by the IRA with a booby-trap bomb in his office that killed a RUC Officer and badly injured the school's caretaker... who always reminded us children that he had fought with the 8th Army. Although, fortunately, no members of my immediate family were killed in the conflict, many of my father's friends were, and indeed a number of my friends' fathers and relatives were murdered by the IRA. So with the benefit of hindsight it is all very well condemning what happened. But unless you were actually there you can never understand what went on behind the headlines.

And as for DHC4's rather naive comment about the people from Ballymurphy 'not wanting the IRA there'...that is arrant nonsense. During the troubles Ballymurphy was one of the staunchest Republican areas of Belfast and had spawned more than its fair share of active IRA members and supporters.

[kendrick47247]

Having grown up in Northern Ireland during the 'Troubles' you may think that I have a less than objective POV. Nevertheless, having (much later) achieved a MLItt in Irish Politics, one thing that my Professor instilled into me was to view both sides of the argument objectively and without any emotional baggage, so here goes.

What you have to remember when the British Army was sent onto the streets of NI in August 1969 to relieve a beleaguered RUC they were totally unprepared for what they found. At that stage the army's main training was to turn back the marauding Warsaw Pact hordes as they swarmed across the Inner German Border, and not to keep two warring tribes apart as they fought, what appeared to many, the continuation of the Thirty Years War. Northern Ireland was truly a place apart. Part of the UK, but fundamentally different from GB.

I can remember Army patrols around our estate stopping people and asking for directions, because they couldn't read maps of built up, urban areas! This was long before the pre-NI Deployment training package that was developed over the years.

When members of the Parachute Regiment came under fire in Ballymurphy in 1971 and Londonderry in 1972, rightly or wrongly, they reverted to their training and returned fire. What should be recalled is that these events occured only 26 years after the end of the Second World War, and many of the Parachute Regiment's SNCOs and WOs undoubtedly had fought at Arnhem and other major campaigns...so they did what came naturally to them. Those who opened fire on them, and attacked them with blast and petrol bombs were not playing by any 'gentlemanly' rules of warfare, and, as always, they gave scant regard to what would happen to innocent members of the local population when the Security Forces returned fire. Indeed, the loss of innocent civilians played well into the Republican Movements' nascent (and ultimately very effective) propaganda campaign in GB, Europe and most effectively in 'Irish America' (sic).

Was it right in the Ballymurphy and Londonderry scenarios? It was not, and unfortunately innocent lives were lost. Can I understand it? Of course I can. Northern Ireland in the early 1970s was truly a very dangerous place. I can remember my town centre being bombed and my primary school headmaster (an ex-Coastal Command Sunderland pilot) was targeted by the IRA with a booby-trap bomb in his office that killed a RUC Officer and badly injured the school's caretaker... who always reminded us children that he had fought with the 8th Army. Although, fortunately, no members of my immediate family were killed in the conflict, many of my father's friends were, and indeed a number of my friends' fathers and relatives were murdered by the IRA. So with the benefit of hindsight it is all very well condemning what happened. But unless you were actually there you can never understand what went on behind the headlines.

And as for DHC4's rather naive comment about the people from Ballymurphy 'not wanting the IRA there'...that is arrant nonsense. During the troubles Ballymurphy was one of the staunchest Republican areas of Belfast and had spawned more than its fair share of active IRA members and supporters.

A brilliant and level headed post in my honest opinion (spoken as someone on the west side of Belfast rather than the east)

Stories of personal losses are never far away; much the same catalogue of experiences here, but with the murder committed by the British army and the loyalist paras.

A truly emotive subject and one which others love to make their ill informed views on heard (not referring to you DHC4)

[Training Risky]

Another politically motivated inquest (a la Saville) which shifts all the blame onto the troops and makes HUGE assumptions about events 50 years ago.

So, reading the coroners report:

https://www.judiciaryni.uk/sites/judiciary/files/decisions/Summary%20of%20findings%20-%20In%20the%20matter%20of%20a%20series%20of%20deaths%20that% 20occurred%20in%20August%201971%20at%20Ballymurphy%2C%20West %20Belfast%20-%2011%20May%2021.pdf

i) The evidence showing gunshot residue and lead traces on the hands of several of those shot has been dismissed as not reaching an evidential standard, although pretty much every bit of rumour, supposition and hearsay from others is accepted unquestioningly as evidence.

ii) The calibre and origin of weapon that killed several of those shot is uncertain.

iii) The finding of ammunition in the pockets of one of those shot has been entirely dismissed.

iv) The troops were under fire from the IRA and under petrol bomb and blast bomb attack, but were supposed to risk assess their actions and respond in a strictly proportionate manner.

v) Although the yellow card specifically states it has no legal force, the coroner claims it was not followed.

I hope we don't see another potential miscarriage of justice crop up again, so soon after the troops were cleared of murdering the terrorist commander Joe McCann.

[DHC4]

Having grown up in Northern Ireland during the 'Troubles' you may think that I have a less than objective POV. Nevertheless, having (much later) achieved a MLItt in Irish Politics, one thing that my Professor instilled into me was to view both sides of the argument objectively and without any emotional baggage, so here goes.

What you have to remember when the British Army was sent onto the streets of NI in August 1969 to relieve a beleaguered RUC they were totally unprepared for what they found. At that stage the army's main training was to turn back the marauding Warsaw Pact hordes as they swarmed across the Inner German Border, and not to keep two warring tribes apart as they fought, what appeared to many, the continuation of the Thirty Years War. Northern Ireland was truly a place apart. Part of the UK, but fundamentally different from GB.

I can remember Army patrols around our estate stopping people and asking for directions, because they couldn't read maps of built up, urban areas! This was long before the pre-NI Deployment training package that was developed over the years.

When members of the Parachute Regiment came under fire in Ballymurphy in 1971 and Londonderry in 1972, rightly or wrongly, they reverted to their training and returned fire. What should be recalled is that these events occured only 26 years after the end of the Second World War, and many of the Parachute Regiment's SNCOs and WOs undoubtedly had fought at Arnhem and other major campaigns...so they did what came naturally to them. Those who opened fire on them, and attacked them with blast and petrol bombs were not playing by any 'gentlemanly' rules of warfare, and, as always, they gave scant regard to what would happen to innocent members of the local population when the Security Forces returned fire. Indeed, the loss of innocent civilians played well into the Republican Movements' nascent (and ultimately very effective) propaganda campaign in GB, Europe and most effectively in 'Irish America' (sic).

Was it right in the Ballymurphy and Londonderry scenarios? It was not, and unfortunately innocent lives were lost. Can I understand it? Of course I can. Northern Ireland in the early 1970s was truly a very dangerous place. I can remember my town centre being bombed and my primary school headmaster (an ex-Coastal Command Sunderland pilot) was targeted by the IRA with a booby-trap bomb in his office that killed a RUC Officer and badly injured the school's caretaker... who always reminded us children that he had fought with the 8th Army. Although, fortunately, no members of my immediate family were killed in the conflict, many of my father's friends were, and indeed a number of my friends' fathers and relatives were murdered by the IRA. So with the benefit of hindsight it is all very well condemning what happened. But unless you were actually there you can never understand what went on behind the headlines.

And as for DHC4's rather naive comment about the people from Ballymurphy 'not wanting the IRA there'...that is arrant nonsense. During the troubles Ballymurphy was one of the staunchest Republican areas of Belfast and had spawned more than its fair share of active IRA members and supporters.

Having also grown up in the North I always find it amazing when people come up with different versions to suit their narrative. Two enquires have found that the parachute regiment murdered innocent people, again what would have been the reaction if this had happened in any other UK city.

You can call my take on things arrant nonsense, in the early years of the troubles and with declining support your everyday Joe didn’t want the IRA in their area. Remember what the lead up to Bloody Sunday was, a March for basic civil rights. At that time in the midst of high unemployment and poor housing, people were more interested in looking after their families. In this part of the UK at the time to be eligible to vote in a local election in Northern Ireland you had to be a homeowner, now which part of the divide do you think that benefited.

With the civil rights marchers route blocked by the army they ended up in the bogside and as they say the rest is history and with this little piece of history became the easiest recruitment job the IRA could have ever asked for.

Of course there is two sides to every story, it is just really sad that we have ended up where we are and history looks like it is repeating itself. There is a lot of anger, over these findings and the government are in my eyes doing themselves no favours by hiding the truth.