View Full Version : China Copying SpaceX Starship
https://www.universetoday.com/151039/chinese-company-claims-to-be-working-on-a-starship-like-rocket/
Chinese Company Claims to be Working on a Starship-Like Rocket
...The clear resemblance between CALT’s rocket concept and the Starship is also in keeping with the way China has monitored SpaceX’s progress practically from inception. As Eric Berger noted in his recently-published book Liftoff (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/liftoff-eric-berger?variant=32126620205090&utm_source=Eric+Berger&utm_medium=athrtwttr&utm_campaign=Liftoff+Announcement) – which recounts the early struggles of SpaceX – a Chinese spy boat was stationed off the coast of Omelek Island (part of the Marshall Islands, South Pacific) in 2006 to watch the inaugural flight of the Falcon 1.
More recent examples include the incorporation of “grid fins (https://spacenews.com/chinese-long-march-launch-tests-grid-fins-for-safely-future-reusability/)” to the Long March 2C rocket (similar to the Falcon 9) for the sake of future reusability, as well as developing the Long March 8 to land on sea platforms (https://spacenews.com/china-rolls-out-long-march-8-rocket-for-weekend-test-flight/). China’s long-term plan for the Long March 9 (https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202011/26/WS5fbee72fa31024ad0ba967a7.html) – which will be the country’s most powerful heavy-lift system once it is in service (slated for the 2030s) – includes making it partly reusable.
In the meantime, it is not clear if China plans to develop a Starship-like rocket would include equipping it for missions to the Moon and Mars (in addition to point-to-point suborbital flights). But since regular missions to the Moon and Mars were also part of the roadmap, it’s entirely possible China intends to adopt the Starship design and mission profile in its entirety.......
https://youtu.be/mzNhrUQ_Qls
FakePilot
4th May 2021, 19:04
Good. Maybe they'll show NAA how its done. The agency whose's motto is "Naa can't do it". Sorry, I grew up with lots of managers and engineers from our (US) aerospace industry. Did you know every Westinghouse employee "knew the frequency of the B52's radar?" BTW if you got them angry they'd form a circle around you and chant "We. Put. The. Man. On. The. Moon."
More recent examples include the incorporation of “grid fins (https://spacenews.com/chinese-long-march-launch-tests-grid-fins-for-safely-future-reusability/)” to the Long March 2C rocket (similar to the Falcon 9) for the sake of future reusability
Of course grid fins were developed and were being used in at least one or two spaceflight related applications way before "SpaceX"..
Good. Maybe they'll show NAA how its done. The agency whose's motto is "Naa can't do it". Sorry, I grew up with lots of managers and engineers from our (US) aerospace industry. Did you know every Westinghouse employee "knew the frequency of the B52's radar?" BTW if you got them angry they'd form a circle around you and chant "We. Put. The. Man. On. The. Moon."
Who or what is NAA?
Jacob87
5th May 2021, 15:42
Well, the list of copycats was replenished with another country. I thought Russia would be the one and only country that can embarrass itself and copy Starship, but I see I was wrong. China disappointed me, but I see people here aren't surprised. When do other countries stop doing this and accept the fact that SpaceX is more successful than they are?
treadigraph
5th May 2021, 18:28
Who or what is NAA?
Only one I know is North American Aviation... built quite a lot of (largely) successful kit for NASA didn't they?
FakePilot
5th May 2021, 19:14
Who or what is NAA?
Some people mistakenly call it NASA, without realizing the severe damage to the advancement of human space travel it's caused. It's a combination of the hubris of the moon landing and the promotional childhood dreams of Golly Gee (chemical) rockets. We need to be thinking about space travel in a whole new way. I used to shred books and papers extolling the Space Shuttle during its development. Even as a little child I realized that a LEO glider was useless. Then to compound with how fragile the thing was. The only reason I didn't kick the one at the Udvar-Hazy I because I felt sorry for the staff that would have a to clean up a pile of ceramic bricks -might be worse than legos.
No other country or private space exploration company has done anywhere near as much as NASA/USA has. Soviet Union certainly put in a good shift but ran out of money.
The future is private enterprise. SpaceX, Blue Origin, RocketLab, Sierra Nevada Corp etc and a dozen others..
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/06/rocket-report-china-to-copy-spacexs-super-heavy-vulcan-slips-to-2022/
Rocket Report: China to copy SpaceX’s Super Heavy?
About two months ago, we reported (https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/04/chinas-state-rocket-company-unveils-rendering-of-a-starship-look-alike/) on China's state rocket company releasing a rendering of a spacecraft that looked a lot like SpaceX's Starship vehicle. Now, a senior Chinese space official says the country is modifying its plans for a very large rocket, the Long March 9. This booster, it turns out, also looks similar to the design of SpaceX's Super Heavy booster, which will serve as the first stage of Starship.....
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1219x687/lm9_rocket_design_drawings_and_performance_parameters_1fc143 d4329152c75f4769e52ec7120d5ce1d867.jpg
pax britanica
26th Jun 2021, 11:42
While there is a long history of reverse engineering isnt it equally likely that if you give two teams of engineers the same brief and the same computer simulation models they will come up with virtually the same design because in our data defined world that's what we should expect to happen.
Take a look at car design , small com[acts (not the actual mini) mostly look the same small-mid SUVs look the same etc etc . A few examples from history , British Vc 10 , long haul good field performance need to operate from lower grade airfields than main hub .Russian ILK62 long haul 4 engines good field performance and operating from second-grade airports , the result they look largely the same.
Four engine pure jet transport capable of transcontinental transatlantic operation version 1 B707 version2 DC 8 , how many pax could tell them apart.
So don't be too sure about the Chinese copying things, based on their huge population and all they have learned in the last 40 odd years they are no longer second class scientist and engineers often ignorant of technological development due to Chinas place in the world (ie seperate from it) . We will/are underestimating them at our peril, they have huge resources, no greedy ignorant shareholders wanting unrealitic paybacks and can take a long term view. And vast number sof their besta nd brightest engineers went to all the same western univeristies as their peers in the west.
While there is a long history of reverse engineering isnt it equally likely that if you give two teams of engineers the same brief and the same computer simulation models they will come up with virtually the same design because in our data defined world that's what we should expect to happen.
Expect nobody did till SpaceX came along. Then up pop China with a look-alike.
Just hope SpaceX have been as forward thinking in their IT security as their rocket designs and the similarity is just skin deep.
If China’s work straight out of the box without repeating SpaceX’s crashes as they refined their designs and software I’ll be highly suspicious….
wiggy
26th Jun 2021, 15:46
Not completely convinced that it is pure reverse engineering, for the reasons pax b states..and I see the “arstechnica” author is another one who gives the impression of being confused about the provenance of grid fins….
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202401/23/WS65aef6f7a3105f21a507dba8.html
Chinese reusable rocket one step closer
A recent test by LandSpace, a leading private space launch company in China, has moved the company closer to its goal of building the nation's first reusable carrier rocket, according to industry observers.
The Beijing-headquartered LandSpace, which shot the world's first methane-propelled rocket into orbit last year, carried out its first "hop test" — in which a rocket lifts off to a certain altitude and then makes a controlled vertical landing — at the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center in northwestern China's Gobi Desert on Friday.
During the one-minute "vertical takeoff and vertical landing (VTVL)" test, the experimental rocket reached a height of approximately 350 meters and then descended to softly land on a designated point with a descent speed of 0.75 meters per second and an accuracy of about 2.4 meters, according to the company.
The rocket's liftoff weight for the test was 50.3 metric tons, and it can contain more propellants in subsequent tests to a maximum overall weight of 68 tons, designers said.
Powered by a modified 80-ton-thrust TQ 12 methane engine, the experimental vehicle is 18.3 meters tall with a diameter of 3.35 meters, and is made of stainless steel.
"The rocket landed steadily and accurately, and remained in good condition. The flight was a complete success," LandSpace announced after the test, noting it laid a solid technical foundation for the maiden launch of its ZQ 3 reusable rocket.
Yang Yuguang, a senior space industry observer and vice-chair of the International Astronautical Federation's Space Transportation Committee, said on Monday that LandSpace's VTVL test was "significant" because it was a major step toward the completion of the ZQ 3 model, which has been designed to be made of stainless steel.
"Through the test flight, designers could verify the recovery plans of the ZQ 3's first core stage and the performance of the rocket's methane engine, flight control, landing guidance and touchdown buffer systems, and also could test procedures for a reusable rocket's launch, telemetry, recovery as well as maintenance.
"So far, two private Chinese enterprises have conducted VTVL tests of their own methane-fueled rockets, and I am sure they will be joined by more of their peers," he said.
Wang Yanan, chief editor of Aerospace Knowledge magazine, said the use of stainless steel bodies and methane engines has become a shared path for space companies to build reusable, environmentally friendly rockets, which will be pillars of human space exploration in the years to come.
He said the test by LandSpace testified to the company's ability to develop and operate sophisticated rocket technologies previously dominated by foreign companies.
"Private companies around the world are at the forefront of technological innovation in the space industry. We have witnessed the rapid advances made by the Chinese private sector in terms of rocket and satellite technologies, and their achievements will surely strengthen the country's competitiveness and capability in the global space industry," he said.
LandSpace said that based on Friday's success, the company will use the same experimental rocket to make test flights reaching a height of 10 kilometers in the near future, further verifying key technologies for the ZQ 3.
If everything goes according to plan, the first ZQ 3 will be assembled and make its debut flight in 2025.
According to the rocket maker, the ZQ 3 will be 76.6 meters tall and 4.5 meters wide, and will weigh nearly 660 metric tons when fully fueled.
With a liftoff thrust of 900 tons, it will be able to transport spacecraft with a combined weight of 21.3 tons into a low-Earth orbit.
The first stage of ZQ 3 is designed to be reused more than 20 times, said LandSpace.