BA's pay offer!

[Hot Wings]

BA is offering its pilots a whopping great pay increase of:

a). 1% back dated to Jan 2002

or

b). 2% from July 2002 with FHR increasing by 2% from Feb. Holiday pay to be paid as usual.

This is on the back of 0% for 2000 and 1.8% for 2001. I figure that a rise of 10% is needed just to get us back to where we were in 1999. So much for being rewarded for increased productivity! I'd think very carefully about booking any flights on BA from October onwards.

[Notso Fantastic]

Comment is superfluous! When GMMs?

[Hot Wings]

Also, word from CC89 is that the IR will soon be taxing all of our allowances.

[Shuttleworth]

Thank goodness Darke has gone - he might possibly have accepted it on our behalf!

[Hot Wings]

Shuttleworth - I'm sure he would have got an extra 0.5% knocked off!

[FL390]

Assuming that inflation will be 2.5% this year - it's not a very good show "Hot Rod," eh? I wonder how much of a pay increase you will get....:mad: :confused:

Still, if benefits are taxed, Eddingtion's thousands of £ of benefits will also get taxed - a slight consolation perhaps...

[Thunderbug]

Maybe Rod should take a leaf out of Southwest Airlines book on management! :(

here.... (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64030)

[Jacksman]

You BA lot really should realise how good you have it, we at British European, a.k.a. Jersey European and now FlyBE.Com ! have had ZERO % for nearly 4 years and so please put this in perspective- a JY jet captain in year 1 can expect about £44,000 with about £3500 allowances to make your P60 show around £48K if you are lucky - end of story. Good luck to you all in your desperate struggle.:(

[Robert Vesco]

Wow ! Santa Claus has arrived ! :rolleyes:

Good luck to y´all @ BA !

[overstress]

(Hums) "...this could be the start of something big..."

-or it could be the end of BA - they can't afford the loss of revenue that a falloff in bookings due to threatened strike action will bring...

[Jet II]

Thunderbug

Good luck to the Southwest guys - however as several posters say in that forum - it is down to good management and good finanacial results.

These are two things that are distinctly missing in BA.

:)

[Pink Baron]

Take a look at the EK "tax free" package posted by BigBrutha if the "Grass is greener"!

[Land ASAP]

Jackman,

I forgot my violin. Could I borrow yours?

[anawanahuanana]

Here we go again........:rolleyes:

You get enough already. And I`m sure I`ll start to hear all the usual "but pilots everywhere else get better". If so, get a job somewhere that pays better. There must be a reason that you stay at B.A (pension, expenses to name a couple).

"But there aren`t any jobs out there at the moment". So just be grateful that you`ve got a job when a lot of others haven`t.

The engineers who work all hours in the worst conditions are only worth 2%. What makes you deserve more? I`ve yet to hear a persuasive argument.

I`m fed up with always hearing "we`ll just go on strike". That`s right, take a company that`s in a bad enough shape as it is, and ruin it some more. I`m fairly sure you can afford your mortgages, so quit your moaning for Gods sake

Bring on the moans..................

[Gaza]

Assuming that inflation will be 2.5% this year

Inflation is closer to 1.5% than 2.5%.

As someone who has not seen a salary increase for three years, please forgive me for not shedding any tears. In times of economic turmoil we have to be prepared to make sacrifices. It is not just the airline industry that is suffering - manufacturing, advertising, IT - are all facing their biggest slump in decades. Few, if any, people in those industries are likely to see salary increases.

We may not like it, but sometimes it is better to forgo a salary increase but still have a job, than to bring a company to its knees with very damaging strike action and find ourselves unemployed. Just look at Sabena.

The time for action is when things have improved sufficiently but management continue to take a hard line. At least in those circumstances they have something give.

Food for thought:-
"Here lies the body of John O'Day, who died defending his right-of-way.
He was dead right as he sped along, but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong."

[Double Entry]

I for one think that as BA pilots we should work for nowt. Aye, just the HONOUR of working for such a loved and respected instition should be reward enough.

Plus that way we could employ some more managers, and we could have some even more restrictive practices for the other groups in the company, and an extra man in the tug too. Why not.

[Airbubba]

>>I for one think that as BA pilots we should work for nowt. Aye, just the HONOUR of working for such a loved and respected instition should be reward enough.<<

There is a lament often heard in the expat world "Give a Brit a uniform and he'll work for nothing".

Unfortunately, there seems to be some truth to it judging from the wages.

Of course, there is a lot of genuine pride in working for your country's flag carrier, but the higher wages do help with the kids' college bills...

[acbus1]

I work for a quite large outfit , as a Capt. of some years, and can't really say that I sympathise for the following reasons:-

A BA F/O takes home as much as I , A BA Capt. takes home as much in allowances as I do in salary plus allowances .

I've seen the figures ( and the houses , cars , pensions etc. )

You lot live on another planet ! Get real !

Anyway , got to go , my Cortina needs fixing again .

[Notso Fantastic]

You are the reason it is better for BA pilots to discuss this in private! Go wallow in your poverty- you obviously prefer it to pilots doing something to improve themselves. In this case, it is not BA pilots 'improving' themselves, it is trying to recover from 10 years of excessively tight pay restraint. I should sell your computer and put the money into unit trusts for your retirement if your income is THAT bad! But I really feel you do not have a constructive input here!

[acbus1]

I thought the suggestion to "get real" WAS constructive . Apologies if not .

Selling my computer and investing in unit trusts still leaves me approximately £39600 p.a. short !

[grunt]

acbus1, what figures have you seen ? You must be on really poor pay as a Capt. As I say to all the green eyed monsters who claim to have seen our allowances, show us the money !! Any time you want to see allowances be my guest, I am a wide bodied Capt in BA, ex Brits, show us what you know, or what you think you know. The majority of BA Capts are ex other airlines so we have a good idea what is earned on the other side of the fence compared to what we earn in so called allowances. Do not let your jealousy cloud the issue, lets talk facts, you are talking fiction, are you sure you are not cabin crew ??

[bean_counter]

As an occasional poster but frequent reader I can't help noticing that:

It's the same few names each time pushing for a strike (on the public forums at least). Working on the basis that the most militant are also the most vocal I wonder how much real support within the BA pilot community there is to take this to the brink ?
(There may be a lot of course, it may just be hiding on the private forum)

I also notice that despite the plea for constructive ideas, the suggestion that in a free market and with internationally recognised qualifications that if you don't like your current job then you can go and get a better one elsewhere always seems to be met with deafening silence from those most vocal.

I think every airline would now think very carefully about agreeing another 'industry leading' contract with any union group - just ask Swiss/Sabena/United/US Air. I predict a tough fight and a lot of disappointment.

There's no chapter 11 protection in the UK, when its over its over.

[Shadowpurser]

I'm cabin crew - your point being?:confused:

[Harry Wragg]

Work for FREE, are you mad, I'm thinking of paying BA to employ me cos I luv em so much. It is an honour and a privilege to have a "Speedbird" callsign, thank you very much RE.

Harry

p.s. Just double checked my BA payslip, yep, seems to be less than I earned at CFE, and I believed the hype too!!

p.s. to the p.s. are BE recruiting then, I quite fancy the payrise?

[exeng]

Your comment "There may be a lot of course, it may just be hiding on the private forum" is quite correct.

I gave up posting anything with regard to BA conditions on 'reporting points' some time ago. I won't insult your intelligence by telling you why.

The private forums both here and on the BALPA website are very active.

I take the view that these are private matters for now; in good time all will be revealed.


Regards
Exeng

[constant-phase]

Grunt

You are indicative of the problems with an anonymous forum like this.

"The majority of BA Capts are ex other airlines...." Um, I dont think so. If you are going to come here and play pilot, try to get it right. For your info, the majority of BA Captains have been sponsored by the airline, either through Hamble, or increasingly in the future will be from Prestwick and Oxford.

On a different note, BA will be going no-where until it can reform its cabin crew remuneration. With cabin crew earning up to £35,000 as a basic salary, and £20,000 or more in allowances on top of that, it is going nowhere fast.

I would love to know how the cabin crew unions managed to negotiate a £400 payment per cabin crew member for going to TLV? That and the £90 a head payment for "unpopular" destinations................something BALPA never ahcieved!

[Dan Winterland]

All British pilots should be hoping that BA get a good pay deal. They are the industry leaders. If they get a good pay rise, then subsequent agreements for all other companies should follow the trend - as has tended to happen in the past. If there is a small pay rise, then negotiations will include the phrase "Well, look at what BA pilots got".

[Bucking Bronco]

Bean-counter,

<It's the same few names each time pushing for a strike (on the public forums at least). Working on the basis that the most militant are also the most vocal I wonder how much real support within the BA pilot community there is to take this to the brink ? >
Its the number one topic of conversation on the flight deck at the moment along with the jump seat debacle. The voices you hear are representative of feelings on the line - how many pro company voices do you hear? As an outsider you are excused because you are not privy to the shafting we have recieved over the last ten years. Specifically Guiding Principles : a code of conduct that was suppose to have the union and company working together, instead management took and never gave anything back.

Why don't I go and work for somebody else? Good point, am applying to 2 different positions as we speak; also have recently started setting up a small business. If either of the 3 options proves successful then I will have great pleasure in marching into the offices to hand in my notice. I can do this because I have only been with the company 4 years - others are bound by the seniority and pensions concrete boots.
Working as a pilot is a little different to other professions wrt mobility. Having worked in the City for a firm of top 5 bean counters I have many friends who have chopped and changed firms (pre and post qualification) for better Ts and Cs. There is the advantage of working in a meritocratic environment. As a pilot in BA you are either competent or fired, so all pilots that are currently flying are safe - you are paid according to time in the company (not how well you can shoot a raw data non precision approach) and promoted not on ability but dead man's shoes.


GAZA

The company may be struggling now but in 1997 when it was the most profitable airline in the world did the pilots recieve big rises?
<Inflation is closer to 1.5% than 2.5%.> What about house price inflation in the South East of England?



anawanahuanana

WRT pilots earning more eslewhere, they do - Emirates, Air France, Iberia and Lufthansa being examples. As for joining them please see my above comments.
<The engineers who work all hours in the worst conditions are only worth 2%. What makes you deserve more? I`ve yet to hear a persuasive argument.>
As a pilot trust me I work all hours and have to combat jet lag too. As for conditions, how about being LOCKED and BOLTED into a box 8 foot square with someone else and only getting up twice in a 7 hour flight to go to the loo. You are the one that is implying engineers are only worth 2%, thats your call - we know we are worth more. How? Through comparisons to other operators. Why don't you take the same test to see how much your comrades are paid? Or are you afraid to know the truth - that like many other depts in BA you are paid at the top end compared to other airlines?



Ta ta for now,

[Notso Fantastic]

Doesn't RP get the weirdos out with anything to do with low cost airlines or BA? As for bean_counter, if you want to know the latest score, on the private pprune BA forum poll, it is 120 FOR coming out, 8 AGAINST with 1 abstention. The pilots private BALPA Forum shows equal enthusiasm for getting our dreadful pay sorted by a strike. Make no mistake, pilots are willing to go for the throat this time and drive BA under if need be- that would only take 2-3 weeks (with 4 week recency requirement, pilots would run out of any ability to come back without rechecking by checkers.....who have run out of recency and need rechecking themselves. The perception is that BA is in such a hopeless bind that we would be better off driving the company under and losing this useless 'Leadership Team' and the tens of thousands of useless staff doing nothing essential. HOW CAN BA HAVE MORE STAFF THAN THE GIANT AMERICAN MAJORS? A broad count of efficiency is total staff/pilot. BA about 18/1, the US majors I believe are 10-12/1, Easy and Ryan about 6/1. What are we- Aeroflot of the western world? the Airline is terminal and retreating. It's make or break time, and nobody else can do it. FS&S has achieved.....not a lot- headcount reductions that are 'virtual', Waterside ever expanding whilst daft decisions to switch off lifts in crew reporting centres are taken (does this reduce peoples requirements to change floors?). Whilst our pay has been rigidly held static (or reducing), we have watched other departments sneak in large pay increases. The other day on my flight, with 15 Cabin Crew and one missing, they refused to depart one short. The tail wags the dog in BA these days. We have a management that won't manage, awarding itself 1/2 million share options, a Board of part timers who know nowt about the company (the Engineering Director a few years ago was completely unaware of Aylings 2 year pay deals- I asked him. A Baronness asked to visit the Flight Deck- complete ignorance of rules and procedures), we've seen the airline chasing premium fares when premium fares stopped travelling, then switch to chasing the mass market when most of our planes are now configured for fancy premium leather club seats (250 seats on a 409 seater 747). The appalling graffitti painted on our planes by the previous pretend leader (a Solicitor for goodness sake!) is still there. Annual bonuses are a thing of distant memory lost in the mists of time (unless you are on the Board that is), the shares are below an all time low and just hopeless. Ineptitude. We hope a strike will clean out the company or restart the whole operation unless what we now insist on is coughed up- we have waited long enough and given up enough to see it al squandered on Waterside and its meeting rooms (130?), executive laptops by the thousand (accompanied by company cars)- all totally unnecessary, and unbelievably not an executive available when the Airline could not handle all our customers lost baggage (which I believe reached a mountain up to 14000 pieces at Terminal 4 a few year ago), Pot Plant budgets to make your eyes water, Feng Shui'd office space, and legions and legions of Managers, Hot Cross Buns (Europe) Ltd.! Time for change. So if you really wonder if pilots are out for a fight.....Just hold your peace & keep watching. We are actually over the edge this time- 10 years of pay restraint and another proposed REAL pay cut of 5% this year has raised the pressure cooker to bursting point!

[Jet II]

Bucking Bronco

Ref Engineers pay scales

are you afraid to know the truth - that like many other depts in BA you are paid at the top end compared to other airlines?

Unfortunatley this is just more misinformation fed to you by certain other BA crew. If I did the same comparison as you do and compare my pay with the other majors I would be due about a 25% pay rise. Why is it the the flight crew seem to think that they are the only group within who are on bad pay scales?

I do agree with 'Notso' (for the first time ever!) that the situation is now so bad in the company that it will take something very big to change the continuous down-hill plummet.

Unless the management can be changed to people that have a grasp of reality I really don't see haw anything can change.

As an example - we have around 50 Engineers at MAN sitting at home on FULL pay - there is now a lack of type cover at MAN and we are now sending staff from LHR to MAN on OVERTIME to cover the shortfall, this is economics of the madhouse.



:confused:

[grunt]

Constant Phase

Your knowledge of the BA flt crew community amazes me ! I have been involved in recruitment and you seem to know a lot more than I do, I must ask the guys where all these other captains have come from.

BA Cabin crew with basic salaries up to 35k, change the batteries in your calculator man, your facts are based on rumour and envy, not on the real world.

grunt

[constant-phase]

Grunt

Sorry mate, but I dont know what fleet your looking at to get mainly ex-captains from other airlines? LGW B737's perhaps is the exclusion, but on long-haul (you claim to be from the B777) the majority is still ex-hamble.

What figures do you have for Cabin Crew salaries then? I forgot to include the £50 each time they use the CAT lounge........how did they manage to get these payments and we didnt??

[Notso Fantastic]

Jet II.......I have sympathy for you engineers, believe it or not. Of all the airline, engineers are one of the few groups pilots actually have respect for because we are aware of your technical knowledge coupled with the low regard the airline holds you in (with commensurate pay). BUT, don't blame us for only being focused on our own problems- for 10 years we haven't even been able to fight for ourselves (curse Ayling and our own ex Gen Sec), let alone struggle for anybody elses' interests! I know there are extreme problems in Engineering in BA today, but you must be aware because of tight union legislation there is no assistance possible. It is every man for himself.

[buckleydj]

Notso Fantastic

Accept your points regarding BA's managment style (If any..!!)
If a strike was to bring about a restarted BA or BA#2 for want of a better name what guarantees would you see that the pilots would get a better deal. If you were to close and re-open under new contracts for example.

What with the current jobs market being so tight and the perception on the outside that BA pilots get a better deal would you end up being left out in the cold with your jobs being carried out by potentially less experienced flight crew from other companies who have been waiting in the wings for an opportunity to fly with one of the big guns.

Not disagreeing with any of your points mind you, as a ground pounder looking in - just wondering:confused:

[Bucking Bronco]

Jet II,

My quote...
<You are the one that is implying engineers are only worth 2%, thats your call - we know we are worth more. How? Through comparisons to other operators. Why don't you take the same test to see how much your comrades are paid? Or are you afraid to know the truth - that like many other depts in BA you are paid at the top end compared to other airlines? >

I don't know how much Engineers are paid in relation to other Majors - thats a job for you guys and your Union. If you are paid 25% less then you have a case for more. I know there's a lot of funny things going on in engineering at the moment - the MAN situation and the commuting of LGW engineers to LHR. These are issues that you have to sort out for yourselves - we can only give you our moral support.

I apologise for assuming/insuating that you were paid comparitively well. It is basically 4 years of bitterness of learning how well other employees are paid COMPARITIVELY with the rest of the industry/world. When I joined BA my starting salary was £20K, within a couple of months of joining I was drinking in Windsor and met a Loader Team Leader who was being paid well in excess of £30k, also senior MT drivers can expect to earn £45k with a little overtime. Down route in a long haul bar I find that the CSD and 3 Pursers are all earning more than me. Now, don't get me wrong, if these groups have managed to secure lucrative terms for themselves then good for them. I feel and know that pilots are comparitively underpaid in BA and its time to do something about it.

Its a shame that the outside world and indeed other groups in BA think that we are a bunch of over paid under worked moaners. Yes we are paid well compared to Joe Bloggs but this is the nature of what we do - do people bemoan Barristers and Corporate Financiers? Our point is that WE ARE COMPARITIVELY UNDERPAID and due to the concrete wellies of seniority and pensions cannot move. People often express their surprise when they see my clapped out ford, or see that I live in a 2 bed flat next to a council run bed sit, e-mail me your phone number and you can come around and see for yourself.

NOTSO

Spot on. Its funny how people label us as a bunch of whingers who don't have the big picture when...
i) Every pilot I know hated those tails and commented on the slaying of our Brand.
ii) For years we have said that we are over staffed.
Recently BA has reverted to the Chatham Tail, and FSS has concluded after months of analysis that we are... over staffed!


Cheers

[constant-phase]

Notso

What do you think of the way the BALPA forum Pay thread is going now......people actually talking about reducing allowances and the like!

I feel we should go for a sizeable increase now, and talk restructuring later.

We should do our utmost mind you to prevent the company going bankrupt, as that would ensure we would return on worse salaries and conditions, as the ball would be in the receivers court!

Any thoughts?

[Cheshire cat EGHH]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ornithopter]

Notso - if the company goes under, as a junior FO, I lose my job. Thanks mate, really what I need when I am trying to buy a house without the ability to even buy an ex council flat in the dogiest part of London.

Why do you think you are so badly paid? Try teaching a bunch of 4 year olds for £17K a year or being a graduate in serious debt earning about the same. Put it in perspective. Everyone in the public sector has not had a decent pay rise for years and have to struggle with reducing budgets and demands for higher productivity.

I agree that there have been some terrible management descisions recently. BA is also top heavy etc etc, but striking or making the company fail will only bring real problems to the company and the employees. Ever been in a company that goes under? Ever seen what it does to your pay packet, house, family etc? Think yourself lucky that you do not work somewhere where they make you all redundant and then ask you to re-apply for your jobs and employ only half the people they had before and then expect higher productivity.

I understand all the points that are made regarding our pay, but lets be honest - we have a fantastic job, get paid very well compared to other industries (in this country) and have good working conditions.

Obviously the company will not give us their best offer first of all - so lets negotiate, but all this talk of pushing the company under will only cause tears for us all, while the bean counters make more money out of 'managing' it.

[BoeingAlwaysPlease]

Ornithopter, good Post!

Notso, break the company, and you have killed your career. I have a decade and a half to go, and want to retire from a BA that is still in business.

It is a fine airline, despite the management. Bloated but fine.

We need to squeeze them a bit, but not so much that it hurts them! The industry is a different place since 911. We missed our opportunity for a big rise, but those that got them may find Chapetr 11 takes it away. We can get a bit more out of them than 2%!!

I like the 10% idea.

No restructuring, no losing allowances, just more pay, and soon!!

[Notso Fantastic]

Chaps- as so much has been addressed to me, I feel I have to answer, but would prefer we discussed minutae in the BA section. Broadly speaking, justifying what we are after to non-pilots interests me not a bit. If they were informed what our major international competitors were earning, they would understand, but as they have never heard of airlines such as Southwest, it is a waste of time talking to outsiders, and we will have to include the press soon in that methinks.

As to some 'solutions' currently being touted, I hold my hands up with horror. There is only one solution. Unless we go into this with the full determination to sort it all out now, COME WHAT MAY, we will get nothing. In his desperation to hold onto what for him is a lousy, low paid job, Ornithopter doesn't want to 'rock the boat'. And Boeing, start touting the "I like the 10% idea. " and you guarantee the most we will get is 3%. Having co-pilots in BA fifth or sixth AT LEAST in the pay pecking order has got to stop NOW. They are probably much worse than that. On the Classic at 11 years P2 , I saw with my own eyes that 3 month stewardesses were way outearning me. It's more than just co-pilots- how long before CSDs overtake middle ranking Captains? Maybe a couple of years of sneaked extra pay rises will be all that is needed.

If anybody thinks 400 pilots and 777 pilots on BA routes can be replaced in less than a year, they're smoking something. If/when BA goes under- I will not come back. I will be on a pension. I think very few pp24 people will- we are all heartily sick of what BA has become, and there are jobs elsewhere. The people wanting to fly our aeroplanes will have more of a whip hand than realised- there is a monstrous pilot shortage looming ever larger if you look. Someone has to fly 57 400s and the same number of 777s for UK PLC.......er......I don't think Atlas and/or Virgin can handle it, and how many Rumanian pilots ARE THERE? There is no need to compromise to get this and that- we should be after a straight percentage or go for the throat.

Let's continue in the BA forum- there are too many anonymous bitter wind-up 'I'm broke, so you should be broke too!' merchants or 'you should be grateful to have a job like that and work for a slice of Hovis' merchants here whose comments I find short sighted, jealous or just plain daft.

[Shadowpurser]

The figure getting banded around here are fantastic and the kind of a contract long since gone.

No one will earn this kind of money any more. As usual the minority of people make up for the majority of rumours.

CSD's will contuinue to earn a decnt wage - but do you not think these people set the tone for up to 18 crew memebers - get them motivated - and in turn get pax coming back for more? - Paying all our wages. I'm talking about the good ones here - not the one's who sit in the office watching DVD'S.

The company will do away with the payment system eventually and we will all be on hourly rate - Watch it happen! - it may take 10 or more years - BUT IT WILL HAPPEN!!!

[Notso Fantastic]

Now Shadowpurser, I know it's right 'cos I see'd it wiv me own eyes! Me, an 11 year Classic pilot, almost the lowest paid in the room party in Harare, and we were passing around pay slips. That was 22 years ago, and it still lives with me. OK, Cabin Crew basics are lower now, but there is a whole raft of extra payments that very much changes the picture for Cabin Crew in BA. Perhaps we should move on to the cars crew park at Compass as an assessment of wealth. Now isn't the BA stewardess 'car' these days an SLK? I've seen more CSDs with monster C or E class Mercs than anything else. The married (or divorced) pilot car these days is a Fiesta!

[mainfrog2]

Notso

I don't understand?

If your prepared to push the company that employs you under for a 10% pay rise then you will end up with 10% of nothing.

Striking is the last resort of an ailing (no puns) union because it has lost it's power.You have all allowed your union to permit BA to erode you t & c for too long. I think you need to look to your union as to why it has allowed your salary to slip in relation to other airlines over the years and not to why BA has taken advantage of a weak union. They're your contributions your paying and it's you your union should be representing not the company. I suggest you make your union fight your battle and not allow them to send you like lambs to a strike slaughter.

I feel sorry that pilots in general feel that they must resort to this because of intransigence on both sides(unions and company), but if the cabin crew union over the last 10 years has supposedly been able to secure very good pay and conditions for it's members you are all going to have to ask yourselves where you should point the finger.

[Notso Fantastic]

What good does that do? I would say almost all the unions except BASSA and CC89 have been overwhelmed by Aylings forceful direction and imposed pay deals for the last 10 years. BALPA has had a GS (departed) who has also negotiated our settlements downwards! If you can tell me ONE advantage with castigating BALPA (which is only represented by my own colleagues), I'll owe you a beer. Otherwise, not a productive or sensible suggestion.

[Trader]

Why wouldn't your current and past contracts include a 'cost of living allowance' that would index your wages to inflation? You should at least be in a position to keep up with increased living costs.

[mainfrog2]

Surely BALPA which you pay contributions to is there to represent your interests, if it isn't what are you paying it for.

If things are as bad as you say then the ONLY fault is with the union as most other areas, ie tug drivers, cabin crew, management by your account are walking off with sacks of money, maybe you ought to get BALPA to take a leaf out of BASSA and CC89's book.

If other airlines pilots have leapfrogged you in the pay and conditions terms whose fault is that.

The question to ask is have your conditions been eroded away by the company?, in which case I would imagine most of this was done with input from the unions, or have other airlines improved their conditions for their pilots to such an extent that you have been left behind, in which case maybe a bit of inter-airline communication in a bar one night may enlighten you to a few t&c's which are available.

Not so fantastic - you'd never see my payslip cos even wiv your own eyes my moneys my business and I'm not about to gloat or be gloated over by anyone.

[Spearing Britney]

Why all the begruddgery - a nasty and unhelpful trait of pilots it seems. :confused:

We (pilots) should all be supporting BA's pilots in attempts to maximize their lot. The more their pay goes up the more ours does a bit down the line. BALPA will have sound advisors and if there is a legitimate and sustainable claim it will be made. If and only if the pilots stand shoulder to shoulder will it be won.

Compare and contrast Cathay and its 49ers :( and Aer Lingus and their successful, shoulder to shoulder action:).

If we (thats pilots again) had the sense to stand together, both within our own companies and across companies then we would all improve our collective lot.

Why cant we cover each others backs like mangers do :rolleyes:

[nojacketsrequired]

Well said Shadowpurser and to you Constant Phase you are talking out of your ill informed ar*s old boy!!.

CAT payments nearly right,approx £50/£40/£30 CSD/PSR/MAIN CREW.

These payments are made due to a reduced turn round time and were asked for by BA management as it SAVES BA money.

£35K Basic plus £20K allowances I don't know your source but you are very wrong.

I am a CSD on Euro and total for the year £31K(all in)!!,and as Shadow Purser points out it's us that motivates the crew when the going gets tough and get them out to play and we take a lot of sh*t from our punters who are getting less and less every flight,I don't mind this because it's my job and in my humble opinion the best job around.

Please keep your mind on your issues,argue on your own merits and don't bring other areas into it to justify your claim i.e. cabin crew pay!!,I don't think it will wash with the majority of people who read this board

As for BA flight crew colleagues I wish them every success for their pay claim, which is a just one to bring them on a par with their counterparts within Europe LH/AF/KL/IB etc.
Good luck to them all,they have my full support.

NJR.

Bacardi and Coke loads of ice and lemon.

PS Your figures are right for the TLV but that was a Union agreement.
PPS
Would you like me to disclose your money on a public forum?,NO.....so I won't because I'm professional and your earnings are nothing to do with me and mine should not be to you!!!!.

[snipes]

Compare and contrast Cathay and its 49ers and Aer Lingus and their successful, shoulder to shoulder action

Absolutely! How many people were warning of doomsday and telling us we'd be out of jobs in days if we ever went on strike here in the green Isles??

Want a quick recap?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1662

or

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54141


Now look at us! Our members re-instated, a previous weak and broken union that's now stronger than it's been in decades and flights that are full everyday! Many cabin crew that decided to take special leave for a few years are being called back early due to staff shortages!

An airline in decline? Loosing money - not friggin likely if there wasn't "Enron-esk" accounting practices going on to make the company look like it was "haemorrhaging" cash.

Not to mention talk of a new A330 comming back into service soon, and new routes are being rummoured every day - Florida, South Africa, perhaps even the middle east!!

jongar - Take note.

All about solidarity - STICK TOGETHER FOR A CHANGE!

Take a look at what it looks like ->
CLICK FOR A PICTURE (http://www.geocities.com/link3andthefoxes/EIstrike.jpg)

[Gaza]

If they were informed what our major international competitors were earning, they would understand, but as they have never heard of airlines such as Southwest, it is a waste of time talking to outsiders, and we will have to include the press soon in that methinks.

Why should it matter what a pilot employed in the US, Spain, UAE or anywhere else in the world earns? Rates of pay are largely dictated by the local market. When setting salaries companies benchmark against competitors in the local market - "What do we have to pay to attract and keep the best people?" It is for this reason that down the years many people have gone off to work in high salary, low cost of living places, such as the Middle East. If that's how people want to live their life, so be it. It's not for me.

[ornithopter]

Notso - you seem to misunderstand me, I do not have a lousy job, and while it could be better paid, it is certainly not awful by any means. I am not trying to hang on to it and as for rocking the boat, I will if it needs it, but not so it capsises.

I know that other operators get paid more and I understand all of your arguments - by all means negotiate and get what you can, but pushing the boat under while you retire is just a selfish thing to do. Those behind you who do not have a final earnings pension or the pay that you have will lose their houses etc etc.
How would you like it if ten years ago a load of senior pilots pushed the company under and you had to go and fly seneca's or drive taxis? If your pay is that bad - do something about it, but don't kill everyone else off while you do it. I won't come and nick your car, even though its better than mine - please don't destroy my job because you look out of the window and see people being paid more than you.

There is a shortage of us guys coming up - there is no one really in training (certainly cadet wise as the last couple of courses are nearly finished) and that means that our pay will go up in the next few years as it traditionally has. Don't be selfish - its coming.

Lastly, if you are so close to retirement - why worry? Oh yeah, you have a final year salary pension scheme....

[Bucking Bronco]

GAZA

<"What do we have to pay to attract and keep the best people?"> The problem is that our wages have fallen behind in comparison to the cost of living and also wrt other carriers. As I explained in my previous post on this thread pilots tend to get tied into the seniority and pension system and the company abuses the fact. 20 or 30 years ago I'd say that BA pilots were PROBABLY on a decent wage - not now.


No Jkts Reqd

I understand your frustrations and perhaps it is unprofessional to spout salaries on a public forum but where else can they be highlighted? Your salary appears a little low and could this be your net or is it your gross? Is this because you are new to the CSD role? I don't mind telling you that on PP4 my average take home was £2600pcm, when I was last on a long haul trip discussing this in the bar the 3 pursers said that they averaged out at £2900 - CSD wasn't about. As I have said previously I don't begrudge you your salaries one jot, the more you can get the better for you. I just think that we, as a group, should be paid more than you and your group - sorry mate its how I feel. That said, I value your support of our claim and I thank you for it.


Ornithopter

Hear where you are coming from but how else are we going to get what we want except by striking? We have been shafted by GUIDING PRINCIPLES for too long as we have played the reasonable thinking man. I too don't want to see BA go under but it does need a bloody good kick up the arse and the axe taken to its flabby bits. FSS hasn't really achieved whats needed, Rod has his hands tied by that Cret1n Colin and poor Skippy probably feels like a one legged man in an arse kicking contest. I can only see BA floundering and taking on water in the short term and sinking in the medium term regardless of what we are awarded - 20% rise for all pilots would only mean a 2% rise in the total BA wage bill.

Some facts...
As a % of total labour cost BA pilots make up 13% of the BA wage bill. In Europe the figure varies between 25 to 30% and in the USA 35 to 40%.
BA pilots on average spent 177 days at work in the year, AA 143, AF 137, Ib 108.
Employees per aircraft: BA 250, AF 230, IB 190, BMI 115.



:)

[Notso Fantastic]

Ornithopter- you're making my head hurt!
<<There is a shortage of us guys coming up - there is no one really in training (certainly cadet wise as the last couple of courses are nearly finished) and that means that our pay will go up in the next few years as it traditionally has. Don't be selfish - its coming.

Lastly, if you are so close to retirement - why worry? Oh yeah, you have a final year salary pension scheme....>>

You talk as if it will happen of its own accord! Not without a major amount of tweaking- which is what we are trying to do.

Your facetious last comment- my pension was fixed nearly 3 years ago. My 'final year' was then- I'm crystallised. No pay settlement would alter my pension one jot. I'm actually in this because of my disgust at BA pay rates for the likes of YOU! It makes little difference to me- if I get a rise, I won't have long to enjoy it. I would be FAR BETTER OFF NOT STRIKING myself, but I want to leave a valid career for people who worked incredibly hard to get qualified, not 3 weeks in Cranebank learning how to run a cabin. I'm beginning to wonder why I am bothering!

[Greek God]

Of more concern to me at the moment is the threat of allowances being fully taxed. #">>>*** government :mad:

[Jet II]

Bucking Bronco

As a % of total labour cost BA pilots make up 13% of the BA wage bill. In Europe the figure varies between 25 to 30% and in the USA 35 to 40%.

Whilst you may be correct about the percentages - I think that you are jumping to the wrong conclusion.

The reason that pilot pay is only about 13% of TOTAL labour costs at BA as opposed to 25-40% everywhere else is not solely down to pay scales. It is due to the fact that every other airline have less Managers and other hangers-on. If BA were manned the same as most others you would see Crew pay, as a percentage of total pay, rise.

As an example - at LGW under FSS, front line - hands on Engineers have been cut by around 20%. This has caused problems with a/c serviceability and impacted on our performance. At the same time NO management positions have been reduced - so the net result of FSS is a worse Direct/Indirect staff ratio than we had before!

As I said before - the economics of the madhouse.

:confused:

[Seriph]

Snipes, I don't think that your union, winning against a manifestly wrong attempt by management to change your conditions, has suddenly revitalised the airline! I think you will find that there is more to running the organisation than the concerns of the pilots. They tried it on and didn't win, so they carry on with managing the outfit, you drive the aeroplanes.

[knows]

nojacketsrequired.... fair post ! Thanks for the support too.

[huw stunn]

Jet II

Do you have some data to back this up...?

Employees per aircraft is not an appropriate measure as it often depends on whether ground handling is done by airline staff or outsourced. Don't think that just coz handling is in house, that it is more expensive than outsourcing. Many airlines have been suckered into outsourcing thanks to ground handlers offering loss leader prices for the initial contract and then seeking huge increases in future years to recoup their money - leading to the airline paying more than if it had done the work itself.

Never believe statistics - even when they are right.

[Land ASAP]

To jump to the assistance of Notso here are a number of 'benchmarking' statistics that may help his argument.

Labour Cost
For airlines, labour cost as a percentage of total operating cost is typically:
Europe 25-30%
USA 35-40%

Of that labour cost, pilot costs are in the region of:

Europe 20-23%
USA 28-31%

In British Airways, pilot costs as a percentage of total labour costs are 13%

Pilots per Aircraft (A key measure of our productivity)

British Airways 11.8 Long Haul + Short Haul
British Midland 11.5 Not including Long Haul
Britannia 15.2 LH+SH
Virgin 16.4 All Long Haul
Iberia 12.4 LH+SH
KLM 16.2 LH+SH
Lufthansa 13.2 LH+SH
Air France 15.2 LH+SH

That would appear to answer all the arguments. BA's woes have nothing to do with the pilots
Productivity or
Agreements

Whether the company would be better off starting with a tabula rasa is up to the city. They could easily ask the board to placate us. But the board aren't leaning on our managers who appear to be just as antagonistic as they have always been.

I have 8 years in this company and if I were to extend the decline in status that my profession has seen in that time, by the end of this decade I imagine I shall be deemed unskilled labour on minimum wage. We all know that's not the case but if you set my managers a 'performance related pay-challenge', they'll take it. If we don't retaliate, they'll get their bonus.

Enough.

[rockon tommy]

What! Only 1%? Here at DHL shifting containers all night its more like 2%. I suggest you demand 3% plus double icecream on sundays. Tell e'm if you dont get it your going to stay out late, and make a lot of noise-and you dont care.

[ornithopter]

Bucking Bronco - I certainly take your point, but see below

Notso - I appreciate your efforts on the parts of us junior guys and sorry for the comment - just got a little annoyed.

I agree with all the figures and the percentage of total cost that pilots make up etc. I also agree that people who have worked extremely hard to sit up the pointy end and have a lot of reponsibility should be paid more than someone who has had 4 weeks of cabin training. BUT I cannot see how a strike will actually help. I realise that we do not have many levers, but striking will
a) lose the company money - more of a reason not to pay us.
b) give a good excuse to management to blame losses on
c) make the accountants see us in a bad light and try to screw other things
d) might make the company go bust - then no jobs at all (until another airline buys us, puts their pilots above us in seniority and pays us less saying we should be glad we have jobs)

All I am complaining about is what seems rather dangerous. The public will not be on our side if we strike and we cannot afford to lose the people who ultimately pay our wages.

I support a lot of whay you say, I am just concerned about what a strike will do.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Why are some people so worried about the publics perception? Surely only Nurses get public approval for pay rises.

WWW

[exeng]

Good point my friend. It is our business, and ours alone. The good old public can think and say what they like. We do not need them, on side or off side, and I personally do not give a 'monkeys'.


Regards
Exeng

[HOVIS]

Ornithopter,

Lose has one "o"

Thank you and good night!:)

[Notso Fantastic]

Ornithopter,

I would ask you to trust your colleagues and go along with the majority decision. I think we have reached the stage where only industrial action will achieve anything. Giving the company complete co-operation and peace from us over 35 years has seen us decline like no other pilot group in no other company! Even John F. has calculated in the last few years our real pay has slipped 40% (from an already low base!). There is only one way to go about this- show resolve and the other side will cave in. Let others try it and see if it works for them if they want to follow (I don't think it will!).

Maggie Thatcher (bless her cotton socks) said during the Falklands something about her Cabinet had gone a 'bit wobbly' about the magnitude of the events (someone will correct me!). It's easy to feel 'wobbly'. Looking at this business, it has become apparent we are not going to get anywhere without a major recourse to industrial strife. They are going to test our resolve all they can. The only advice I can give is to VERY FIRMLY back up your reps and stand together.

[ornithopter]

I am not about to cause problems for my colleagues and will have to trust the majority descision if anything happens, as for one thing I do not have enough experience in the industry. There is still a lot to learn and you guys with more experience than me are the ones to listen to.

I just don't like words like 'lousy job' and 'pittance' and things like that as it appears that people who write that have lost the plot, as I neither have a lousy job or get paid a pittance and that is where my comparisons with other jobs came in.

I hope you realise how some of the posts above worried me a bit, in my position as a junior guy, as when things go wrong I am the first to go. Perhaps a bit wobbly - but understandable from my point of view? Will obviously wait to see what happens, but hope that industrial action is a last resort and one that we do not need to use. I would much rather be at work than sitting at home twiddling my thumbs, and as long as I feel that way, then I am happy with my job - certainly don't want to lose it.

[Bucking Bronco]

Ornithoptor

What do you suggest instead, that we go in individually to see Lloyd and ask him for 25%? Let me know how you get on. Its through abuse of Guiding Principles, scaremongering and pleading poverty and touting prudence that BAs managment has managed to erode our terms and conditions.

As for "lousy job" well I don't suppose it is compared to some BUT its certainly changed in the 5 1/2 years I've been flying and the trend is the wrong way.

"Pittance" yep, compared to what some of my friends earn it is. As I have said on a previous thread out of my Uni house of 6 people I am the 5th best paid - or is it the second worst? The worst is an aspiring actress who temps as a PA. With 11 GCSEs, 4 A levels, an Honours degree from a "redbrick", experience working in the City and ultimately what counts - a JAA ATPL. I am underpaid compared to my University and School peer group AND underpaid compared to other pilots flying for majors.

[giza]

Everybodies job within BA, and I suggest elsewhere has been eroded in the last 5 1/2 year, not just pilots, and the trend will continue because that is the nature of the beast, It will continue until the rush for the door affects the business. We are a long way from that, are we not. So not such a lousy job after all is it !.

I have seen the outside world and at the moment am happy where I am , and sad as it my seem , still proud to work for BA

[Harry Wragg]

I'm just glad that there are lots of gullible people waiting to join BIG AIRWAYS. I personally think its the best job in the whole wide world and am looking forward to paying lots of money to go to work, cos that's how much I luv it.........yeah right!

Sorry guys and gals, don't think there will be a strike, too many fuzzy heads to contend with. I think BA management would miss an opportunity if they did not introduce further cuts to the BA piloting community. 1% payrise, how about a 25% paycut across the board. Not only will it save the company but all the fuzzyheads will not mind as they work for BA cos they luv it so much!!

Harry works for money, not BA.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Good luck to all you BA boys threatening strike action. I hope as I'm sure you do that it doesn't come to it but enough is enough. Bucking Bronco is absolutely correct. We are paid a bloody pittance now compared with other professional jobs and surely a stand has to be made.

You only have to see the salaries train drivers get now to realise how we are being left behind. And if that is a harder job than flying an aeroplane, then I need to be removed from this world by the men in white coats. For a start, it wouldnt take me 18 months to get there nor would it cost me £50k. I bet the majority of pilots could drive a train if taught but most train drivers wouldn't be able to pass their ATPL exams let alone fly an aeroplane.

It irritates me listening to those who think this is a well paid profession. It most certainly is not anymore and if BA pilots manage to achieve a good deal, then it filters out to the whole UK market. My employer has given us sweet FA this year, I am being taxed more and being worked harder. So those who say just get on with and count yourself lucky - think again. Mr Darke's exit is testament to the fact that a lot of pilots feel that they have been pushed too far now.

Good Luck Boys - we're all counting on you to kick some arse.

[Sigmund]

I am surprised that nobody sees that the problem is that you have voluntarily left the free market, in that you embrace the seniority system, referred to elsewhere on this thread as "concrete wellies". Without this, pilots could come and go to jobs for which they are qualified, just like any other profession in the world of work, and the company would be forced to pay the going rate if they wanted to keep people. In fact you'd hardly need a union, though I don't suppose it would encourage thinking like this, because they want you to need them. Those concerned about earning less that their university friends might ask how many of them work in a unionised, seniority-based system.

[Seriph]

Train drivers better paid, don't be silly.

[FL390]

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/gla/story/0,9061,660019,00.html

Um, Seriph, please take a look at this article and scroll down to about half way down and you will see that basic pay for an underground train driver is £30,401 for a 35 hour week. Pay is up 9.7% over the last 12 months. Now compare that with Bucking Bronco's post on page three of this thread: he said he got £20,000 wen he started at BA. Therefore I can conclude that traindrivers do indeed get paid more than some pilots.

Of course some pilots earn far more than this; but I'm just illustrating the point that a professional that has probably worked far harder and longer to save, train (no pun intended:D) etc is getting paid far less than a traindriver that probably hasn't gone through all of the costs etc.

:eek: :confused:

[ornithopter]

Bronco - To be honest I am not sure what to do, as I have said I am inexperienced in this industry. I do agree that our terms and conditions have been eroded, but as GIZA has said it is happening everywhere. I have a good degree, A levels, GCSE's etc and was offered a job for £16K a year. Before you ask, yes it was a decent job with good training and no the pay did not go up much over the years. In fact it stopped at about £25K after 5 years!!! Things like that make me think that even though things have been eroded, life as a pilot is not the pile of compost that people portray it as.

Giza - you're right, everywhere in the public sector things are a lot worse than they are here, hence my opinion that things are not THAT bad.

Studi - fair point, perhaps I am being too windy?

I considered becoming an underground train driver while waiting for a job flying. They get paid a few thousand more than me. However, I think they are really overpaid for what they do and only get that money because they can. Striking ruins London every year and the management give in while the whole network crumbles. Certainly not something I want to see in Aviation.

I agree with Sigmund's thoughts on seniority. At the risk of starting a flame war with everyone else, it certainly seems like madness to me that we (effectively) can't swap companies. Large banks and the like swap employees all the time and in some cases the training costs for them far outweigh what the airlines have to bear for us. I am loyal to my company, but who knows where I will be in 10 years time? Certainly seems like concrete boots to me.

[overstress]

Ornithopter

If you are who you say you are (and I have no reason to doubt that you are not) then I would like to offer you some advice.

Lurk, not post. If I may modestly say so, my own "postings to date of registration" ratio might offer some guidance.

Of course, you are perfectly entitled to say whatever you like and I understand your concerns about your employment prospects.

However, once in a while, industrial unrest over pilot pay comes to our profession and it is always the case that there are new joiners on the scene when this occurs.

The whole situation is unfortunate for everyone, and I include pilots, shareholders and management within that term.

It is unfortunate for we pilots, as the bills still arrive on the doorstep.

It is unfortunate for shareholders, as they are being let down by management - it is shareholder investment which supports the company and gives said management the freedom to make the decisions it chooses.

It is ultimately unfortunate for the management, for it is they who will bear the brunt of their own incompetence.


Pilots are in demand. Shareholders can sit it out, or pick another stock. Management will be fired.

[ornithopter]

Overstress - points taken.

I have been reading Prune for about 6 years now and my number of posts has been very small. I do not usually have anything to add, but felt that this thread was something I could add to which would cause a bit of discussion. I fully plan to continue lurking. My opinions have been said now and other posts answered so I don't really see what I can add anymore. The responses to my posts have certainly made me think though -which is why I posted in the first place.

[JONSV]

I think BA must change it's allowances system.

Allowances do not accurately reflect peoples expenses downroute, and I would prefer a larger and guaranteed basic, and more simpler allowances.

It is because of allowances that people bid for certain things, and it is because of bidding that we want seniority. Thus our lust for lucrative trips means we put on our own "concrete boots" and keep ourselves here.

Increase basic salary, introduce formula pay. Make allowances on a duty hour basis; the longer you work, the more meals you need thus the more money you get, like at LGW but worth more. Have an additional nightly allowance which is the ONLY variable factor between destinations to account for the economic differences.

This will mean that senior people have less need to bid for the big money trips, and will mean that junior guys don't spend all their time in africa and other low paid stops.

People will be less concerned about bids and seniority and will bid just for things that interest them. Operationally this lets all pilots have a fairer share of destinations and gain more experience sooner. Ultimately with a much higher basic, and less emphasis on allowances and seniority, other airlines in the UK then have a higher basic salary to use as a benchmark.

When BA pilots can leave the company and go onto a similar basic elsewhere without fretting over lost allowances, they will do so when something aggravates them. Likewise other pilots will come to BA satisfied that they can still have a decent lifestyle, less scuppered by the seniority system. For example they can stay short haul without losing too much, or go long haul and see more of the world than NewYork and Nairobi.

When more people are moving between airlines, they begin to wince from huge training costs, they need to improve pensions and pay to keep people in their company, just like happens in other professional jobs; in the real world.

We are highly skilled professionals, and most of us are fairly intelligent. We are however our own worst enemy when we trap ourselves inside a company which is full of jealous managers who simply want to shaft us.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

JONSV - I hesitate to comment on this thread as I don't know much about the issues. Nevertheless - you seem to make an excellent point.

Can someone counter argue this idea?

Cheers

WWW

[Notso Fantastic]

So, in the middle of an industrial dispute, you wanna change the way the aviation world is run? Heaven help us! Let's jsut get through this dispute without egg on our faces before we try and change the laws of nature! (and aviation employment). Go dream somewhere else!

[Bucking Bronco]

Quite, lets go for the % increase. Lets stay united and not get distracted.

The problem with your idea is that the junior guys will end up in the expensive places eg NRT and HKG, having to stay in their room because they can't afford the £7 beer. Meanwhile the senior guys will develop a sudden fondness of jet lag free, warm, cheap africa with its golf courses. So the big boys with the cash end up living like kings with juniors living like paupers. If you alter the DOA for different destinations then this will just mirror the present system.


Cheers

[JONSV]

NotSo;

I wasn't talking about the aviation world, I was talking about BA. I do understand that some long-serving long-haul people in the company are unable to tell the difference however.

I also didn't suggest changing the whole way it's run. If you read carefully I am simply putting forward a proposal which could be considered as part of our long-term pay negotiation; a simplified and fairer system of duty-pay.

There is no industrial "dispute" that I am aware of just now. Please come back with a sensible counter-arguement as WWW suggests, anything else unconnected with the title of the thread is a bit boring.

Bronco;

Thank you. Is it correct then that other than the DOA all other allowances are the same for each destination? I was of the belief that there were lunch and dinner allowances which also varied. I'm not fully briefed, but I thought that the allowances on a Tokyo were significantly more than most could sensibly spend, whereas on some African trips you will often end up spending the lot. This is from a few skippers who are ex-RHSLH now at LGW.

My point was that if this were the case, it would be fairer to have the hourly system, then just one overnight payment for each day as a "top-up" to account for these differences, so the "excess", if you like, could be similar.

[Bucking Bronco]

JONSV,

Sorry if this is repetitive from before but I've copied and pasted from a BALPA thread...

<WRT swapping allowances for hourly rate - no way! For a start a Capt told me that the history of allowances being such a high proportion of mainline pay stems from the 70's (I think). When public sector pay demands were causing inflation the Government decided BA's flying staff pay rise be masked in allowance rises rather than basic salary rises which would trigger more demands from other public sector industries. So you see that the allowances are not really meant to be subsistence only - historically the intention was that we would always save a bit. Furthermore, the allowances allow us to live a little where ever we end up be it in Entebe or Narita. This job is getting less social by the day, we don't need the flight deck delsey dining like half of the CC in these expensive places. As a junior lad I would end up in the expensive places all the time whilst the senior boys developed a sudden fondness of cheap, no jet lag africa!

So if they want to get rid of allowances give me a 40% pay rise so that I can afford that £6 beer in Hong Kong. >

Having done my fair share of Africa, yep its possible to spend all your allowances if you eat in the hotel, have a few rowdy nights and do some activites. Same applies in NRT, thats why its not as social a trip, people (I've heard) go to the truck and eat in cheaper places cos its worth saving the allowances whereas in africa its not worth scrimping and cutting corners to save £.

I think that you have misunderstood Notso and myself where we have stressed that sticking to the script and being united will count for more than anything else. If we stick together we can get what we deserve/want/need. However, your points are worthy of a mention for future debates - I think the PSG team have enough on their plate trying to deal with anti pilot mgmt without "too many cooks" throwing their ideas in and clouding the issue.

Cheers

[dogsnutz]

The attitude of some on here of "the world owes me a living because I am a pilot" is sickening. The state of the industry around the world has gone to c*@p and instead of demanding massive payrises you lot should be gratefull you have jobs in the first place. :mad: :mad:

Just to remind you what its like in some other airlines which are better run than BA then look at this from the c.e.o of American Transair.

Open Letter from George Mikelsons
State of the Company
August 23, 2002

My Dear Fellow Employees,
Over the last two weeks, I have attempted to be open and up front with you by honestly assessing the state of the airline industry and ATA's situation in particular. As we move forward, I intend to continue to inform you of our decisions and the steps we must take to ensure our viability and long-term competitiveness. Some of the decisions we make will be painful and unpopular. However, I can assure you that they have been well thought out and are vital to our survival.

You need to be aware of the following decisions:
• This week we announced the removal of our L-1011s from scheduled service. These planes have served us well but the demands of scheduled service require the efficiency of our 757 and 737 aircraft. For now the L-10s will be held for our military business only.

• As part of our review of budgeted expenses, we have determined that it is essential to reduce our employee count. Even though the final numbers have not yet been determined, we anticipate eliminating about eight percent of our budgeted payroll. I emphasize budgeted headcount because the first place we are looking at is open positions. While we think we can save a lot by not filling openings, we know it will not be enough. We will have to furlough some employees, which will be very painful. Each division is currently working out its plan so this difficult process will begin and end very soon.

• We must extend the wage freeze beyond the expected end date of September 30. I understand the burden this places on all of you, but frankly, we just don't have a choice. I'm not saying it will last another year and I hope it will not. Our top priority, however, has to be saving the jobs of 7,000 people and our company, not just their raises.

• We are eliminating all non-essential cash expenditures. For example, we will not spend money even on a Christmas party this year. I hate doing this because, like you, I really look forward to the Indy base party.
There are a lot of other ideas that we are examining and thinking through. Some of the savings will be big, some small. We need every nickel. I can't promise you that this will be easy. In fact, it will be very difficult. I can promise you that I will let you know when decisions are made and what their impact will be on all of us. Everything is on the table and all suggestions are welcome.


George

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Why has BA got a bloody AUSTRALIAN running it anyway.
ITS TIME HE WAS SENT ON THE BOAT BACK TO AUSTRALIA.

[Pandora]

Dogsnutz,

poor, poor American Transair employees. You didn't get a Christmas party.

Well, hands up anyone at BA who has been to a BA funded Christmas party - nope, I thought not. The only people who get those are, yes you guessed, Waterside employees.

In the grand scheme of things we are fed up of decades of shafting (although I myself have only experienced a few years of it). Every airline employee has been hard hit after Sept 11th - BA employees have had years of it before that fateful day. We don't think the world owes us a living because we are pilots. We think our employer owes us a living because we work damn hard for it.

We at BA have taken head reductions, fleet cutbacks, pay freezes and cuts in 'non-essential' items and lots, lots more, however many of our workforce are still awaiting the rewards for 'sharing the pain' after the Gulf War, yet between now and then BA has experienced some of its highest ever profits. It patted the directors on the back, gave them wodges of cash and then when the 'uniforms' (and believe me, that is not a term of endearment in BA) asked for a bit they said 'Sorry, none left'.

BA could have nipped this problem in the bud by paying a reasonable living wage to start with. Then when the poo hit the fan last year BA would have had pilots who accepted their lot.

In the meantime Dogsnutz, if you can think of a reason for accepting a relative pay cut every year, even in those years when a company makes record profits, please let us all in on the secret.

[Oz Geek]

Dear Mjenkinsblackdog,

What makes you think we want him back!!!::::confused:

It took long enough to get rid of him....:D :D :D

[Notso Fantastic]

Mjenkinsblackdog, we have tried in BA the Australian convict trade in reverse. We brought this Oztralian over here and shackled him in Boardroom handcuffs. I gather whilst everybody thinks he's running the show, he's not! There is a superannuated 70 year old really running things and pulling the strings, and only working 1/2 day a week! When asked at an AGM why it was OK for him to stay at his age when his crews were compulsorily turfed out at 55 and apparently lived under a different set of rules to Boardmembers, he mumbled something about 'different circumstances'. Whilst we have been hard on Skippy, he has been manacled, and we hear has been dreaming of the days of going back to work for a previous employer. Perhaps what we really needed was Skippy unleashed over here!

And Dogsnutz- what possible relevance ATA's problems have to BA escapes me. Refresh me- is this some charter outfit doing ad hoc work whenever, wherever? It would be interesting to compare paychecks for equivalent positions. BA has been experiencing very tight pay control for 10 years. I'm actually barely any better off in money terms since 1995 (therefore a LOT worse of in real terms), despite now flying a 747-400 v. 737- all this in the same time frame when Board remuneration has increased in BA by record amounts. This year we are heading for a pay cut, as last year and the year before that (in real terms). That is why BA patience is worn out, so may I suggest it is a little disingenuous for you to try and interfere and deflect teh BA pilots argument? In other words, tough for ATA, but you are a very long way away!

[Crash_and_Burn]

Maybe a silly question, but why are almost all attacks in the thread aimed at BA Management? Who are THEY exactly?

Is it all people with in the organisation above the grade of A7 or even A5, should we do away with every single one?

If you guys are going to slag off people, why not quit with the generalisations and name the names or positions of those people whom you think are causing the downfall of the company and making pilots live below the poverty line.

My MG and SM and GM all contribute massivly to the sucess and continued operation of BA. They earn their wages through 12 hour days and bloody hard work, as do I.

Let's not hear any more cr@p about bad management - who are the bad managers and why. Generalisations are only useful to children and morons.

C&B

[Hot Wings]

C + B - I put the blame on our Chairman and board. Skippy should be allowed to run the airline without his hands being tied behind his back. Some blame must also be put on the Flt Ops/ pilot managers, who seem all too keen to put the boot in to their fellow pilots, in exchange for a bit more cash.

[Notso Fantastic]

Careful chaps- I smell a trap. Name & Shame & get sued! Come on C & B, WHO ACTUALLY RUNS a company and sets the scene, and overemploys in the tens of thousands? Think about it!

[Crash_and_Burn]

You could only get sued if what you were saying was not true. If you honestly believe and have proof that a person is actively contributing to the downfall of the company and your wages then you should feel free to name them and shame them.

Otherwise just bleating on about THEM or the 10,000 overemployed people or THE MANAGEMENT, just get's boring, and is pointless. :( :o

Plus if you think you can get sued on an anonymous and open fourm then this country has gone truly mad! No wonder 54% of UK citizens what to live in another country! :D :eek:

C&B

[Crash_and_Burn]

Hot Wings,

I do agree that the Board do set the tone for the company, and unfortunatley we still have to live with Aylings Legacy.

But do the board set your wages? Or is it the economic climate? Do the board hire 10,000 usless employees? or is it good intentioned people, who have no business sense?

We are also unfortunate that the UK does not have a a Hire and Fire culture, which might make us more secure in our jobs but when it comes to trying to save costs, makes it a damn nightmare.

The whole company is having a tough time, and everyone who works for it has a mortgage to pay and a life to live. We all want it to get better and at the same time earn more money. sometimes it is not possible!:eek: :mad: :(

It annoys me when people slag off thier co-workers without even bothering to find out what they do and how they contribute.:mad:

C&B

[Notso Fantastic]

<<Plus if you think you can get sued on an anonymous and open fourm then this country has gone truly mad!>>

Well mad it must be because you most certainly can. The administrators of the bulletin board bear ALL responsibility for the repercussions of what is said there. They will obviously try and defray some of the responsibility to the person who said it (and whose email address is known and can be traced to the person responsible). So with all you say, it is important to bear in mind you are equally as liable as if you said it in print with your name attached.

I don't understand your hangup with names. We know how BA got into the fix it is, the disastrous decisions taken, the bizarre changes in direction (let's repaint the tails! Let's chase premium passengers only! Let's change to little aeroplanes! Let's rip out the seats and put luxury ones in! Let's go for EVERYBODY instead now!). One disastrous decision after another followed by a complete inability to put the locomotive back on the rails. I've already told you the staffing numbers/pilot for different airlines- BA doesn't need anywhere near what it has. Whilst pilots are exhausted and working up to their legal annual limit (and incidently getting punished for overrunning it), we have thousands of staff poring over laptops and desktops doing pretty much of nothing, Fengshuid offices, hundreds of meeting rooms in Waterside (lovely stream though!), and sometimes nobody to meet the aeroplanes or get bags to our passengers. Do you really need more explanation?

[Crash_and_Burn]

"we have thousands of staff poring over laptops and desktops doing pretty much of nothing, Fengshuid offices, hundreds of meeting rooms in Waterside"

WHO and WHERE exactly are these thousands of people in fengshuid offices doing pretty much nothing? as I sit here in my non-fengshuied office (having a late lunch break) I see about 50 people all working making sure that we have planes to fly and places to send them. I look out the window and downstatirs I see a couple of hundred Sales and sales support people making sure that our planes have passengers. and let me see, nope the meeting room is empty and has been most of the day. Let's have a look, I have 1 meeting booked this whole week, for 30 mins.

No one round here does pretty much nothing 9, 10 up to 14 hours a day (average of about 2600 hours a year minus 26 days holiday) for an average of about 30-40 grand a year.

Next time your over here instead of walking through with your nose in the air, why not stop and ask some of the people what they do and how that helps our flights get off the ground everyday!?

No one chooses to work in this building, I prefered CCO or TBC myself, but we do WORK here.

Ah well, enough Lunch time back and forth, I better get my nose back into my laptop, and make sure you guys have planes to fly. No thanks is necessary, just as well as I know I wouldn't get any! :D :D :eek: :)

C&B

[TopBunk]

Crash and Burn

"...They earn their wages through 12 hour days and bloody hard work, as do I. "

Maybe if you spend your working day browsing R&N on Pprune, you haven't enough proper work to do at Waterside?

TB

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Crash and Burn,

Perhaps you will tell us all whats gone wrong then ? Because its obviously not the fault of anyone working in the Ivory Towers.

[Land ASAP]

Names?

Anyone in Revenue management who overbooks flights more than once a month.

All Performance Executives (flashy title for "Cabin Crew monitors")who felt it necessary prior to Sep 11th to watch how the new Bacon Baguette was recieved on a Barbados in November (or similar junket). We all know they're looking forward to the good old days.

All Project managers who seem capable of "change" on such a regular basis whilst never grasping the fact that this perpetual "change" is the very medium that retains their role.

Anyone who is on gardening leave from Waterside (YOU KNOW THERE'S HUNDREDS OUT THERE!). Working from home eh? My a#rse. You know full well, that the board won't sanction redundancy pay, so what do they do? Keep you at home on FULL pay? That'll sort the MPE figures. won't it?


That'll do for now, Crash and Burn.

[Hand Solo]

....9,10, up to 14 hours a day....

Aaaah, well that will explain why whenever I've arrived at Waterside at 9am I didn't see anyone, then when I've left at 5pm I didn't see anyone either. They obviously arrive earlier than me and leave later and are beavering away in their offices which is why I don't see them. But I am intrigued, just who are these imposters arriving by the shuttle bus load at 10am and leaving at 4pm? Must be the late shift arriving and the early shift leaving. You do work shifts at Waterside, don't you? Presumably that 30-40 grand a year includes the shift pay. Not bad wedge, better than a CEP (but then whats he doing to help get our flights of the ground every day). Last time I asked someone what they did they made me stack Lego bricks on top of each other in a big meeting room with a stylised vault door at the front!

PS If the meeting room is empty then you've probably missed your meeting, must have been in one of the other 182 meeting rooms. You'd best call the 'Manager Meeting Rooms' who was in BA news a few weeks ago and ask him where it was. Perhaps Dubai?

[Gaza]

C + B - I put the blame on our Chairman and board. Skippy should be allowed to run the airline without his hands being tied behind his back. Some blame must also be put on the Flt Ops/ pilot managers, who seem all too keen to put the boot in to their fellow pilots, in exchange for a bit more cash.

BA attempts to cut cost are hampered by agreements with unions that prevent anyone below AGM from being made compulsorily redundant. Flightdeck crew have similar arrangements so why should support staff be any different.

The "them" and "us" culture is very scary. It will also be detrimental to attempts to drag the company back on its feet.

[Bucking Bronco]

Crash and Burn, all managers and waterside staff

May I make a couple of points and ask a question or two?

a) Its strange to see that you have so much time to browse Pprune at work - I see you managed to post at 10.55, 12.45, 13.03 and 13.52 that’s a 2hr 57min lunch break! I suppose though that that’s probably a little on the short side for Waterworld?
(Eeehh when I were a lad and working in t' City sandwich 'n' can o' pop at the desk was all we had - writing wit' one hand and eating wit' t' other.)

b) Also interesting to note that in your profile you list "Proffesional layabout" as your occupation, that’s nice seeing as you say you earn £30k - £40k. Please don't quip that this is a wind up since in your post you ask us to get to know you and find out what you do - this doesn't help.

c) I'm concerned with the quality of some of the people working in important roles within our company.
i) Could I ask whether in your opinion, people with excellent qualifications surround you? I remember meeting a course of new joiners to the ********* dept (self moderated) and asking which Universities they came from gave a list of Colleges of further education and Polytechnics. High flyers do not apply to BA - why is a whole different can of worms.
ii) Do they have proven track records in their fields? Or perhaps some have had no experience and just fancied a change of jobs after browsing Jobscan. I've heard about ex Cabin Crew with no relevant experience that managed to attain positions in Finance, Marketing etc.
iii) Accountability, is this a word used in your office. Sure, the sales people are partly responsible for filling planes with people, if times are good I'm sure they take a pat on the back, in bad times its all down to a "soft" market. World economies have enjoyed the longest run of growth and prosperity in history, only recently has it wavered, yet for years BA has described the market as soft. In the meantime low-cost operators have emerged and other majors are stealing a march on us e.g. Lufthansa who flew more people than we did last year.

d) I assume that you are a manager; you say that you have a MG, SM and GM above you. This is one of the problems with BA - too many layers of management that leads to slow decision-making and poor accountability. Flatter structures and companies that have grasped the nettle and adopted them are far more successful than those that haven't. Even Rod said we have to get rid of layers and complexity, but as has been stated his hands are tied.

e) What about the chap responsible for ordering the retro fitting of the B777 bunks? Boeing quoted a figure of $ x and a weight of Y kg; Joe Bloggs Engineering Salesman quoted less $ and kg. Our chap, without securing a guarantee of product, orders Joe Bloggs to do the work. Guess what? It ends up costing more and being heavier than the Boeing quote, net result was higher initial cost and ongoing higher fuel costs. A manager in the fuel dept related this story to me. It shows how some people are clearly not up to the job in BA and should be got rid of. As a pilot I am put through the simulator twice a year, route checked once a year, given a thorough medical once/twice per year and have SESMA (black box spy) looking over my shoulder every time I fly. If I don't perform in any of these areas then I lose my job - simple.

f) Did you hear the one about the monthly safety team meeting in Waterside being turfed out of their meeting room because it had been allocated to a Feng Shui meeting? Quite funny that cos it highlights the lack prioritisation and also the absence of inter departmental communication and understanding.

g) Is it true that people were employed in Waterside to fill the copiers with paper and toner? When I worked in an office that was for the secretaries and also whoever used it.

h) Last year at the dentist in Waterside, I got talking to a new Graduate entrant who'd started working for us and told me of her frustration at not being given any work to do except running to the tea machine and menial photocopying and filing. Hopefully that changed some time soon after her initial 3 weeks.

j) The length of the working day 9 - 12 hours. Disputed by some people. Obviously, some of you guys do long hours and get results, thank you. But equally you must admit that there are some that don't - turn up at 10 leave at 4 etc. To quote one of my colleagues, "I honestly say that pilots don't leave work only - it’s a bloody long way to fall." Just for the record, this month of august I will have 232.5 hrs away from base (and home), not bad you think as this works out to be about 50 hrs/week. BUT I had a weeks leave so the figure is more like a 65 hr week. This is not a particularly heavy month for me and I am certainly not the hardest worked pilot in BA.

I think I can speak on the majority of pilots when I say I don't have a problem with paying and rewarding effective and successful managers. Its far better to have 1 chap earning £100k doing the job, getting results, putting in the graft than 5 layabouts earning £20k.

To summarise...Once again, to any managers that are out there who do get results, are effective in managing and putting the hours in - thank you. To the dossers - do the decent thing and resign.


Cheers

:p

[Jet II]

Bucking Bronco

Whilst I agree with almost verything you say there are a couple of items I would take issue with.

Even Rod said we have to get rid of layers and complexity, but as has been stated his hands are tied

As I understand it most senior managers are on 2 year rolling contracts and can easily be got rid of - the only thing lacking is the will. The only staff who are going at the moment are front-line which is the old BA way - no change there then.

Do they have proven track records in their fields?

What is Skippy's track record in rescuing failing companies?.

If anyone is expecting Skippy to make a difference I feel they will be very disappointed. I forcast that within 2 years Skippy will be gone with his pot of gold and nothing will have changed except the company being deeper in the s**t.

:(

[Bucking Bronco]

Jet II

Didn't know about the 2 year rolling contracts - can someone clarify? The thing is...(deep breath this is going to hurt me saying this)...even if we got rid of the whole of Waterside that is only 4000 employees, still about 15,000 short of a decent chop. Front line staff in UK should be protected but is it really necessary to have all these staff working for us overseas? ie Check in agents, sales, engineers (where adequete cover for type already exists and is cost effective), cabin crew etc. I'm not sure? At the end of the day we have got to get back to core business ie flying aeroplanes. Last year there were more people in IM than Pilots - are we an airline or IT firm? I don't know the breakdown of staffing levels across the firm - when I do I can expand.

Skippy was brought in as an Axe man - history of wielding it at Ansett and Cathay - as for turning failing companies around - not many people with that expertise wrt airlines. I think Colin should go - he's got experience of presiding over failing companies - BA and Invensys. Also, Bob Ayling was Colins choice, his puppet - I think we only managed to get rid of Darth Vader and the Emperor Sith Lord still wreaks havoc.

Methinks your prediction will be right, maybe sooner than you think. Skippy's had a stack of share options granted to him in order to stick with it a while longer.


Cheers

[basil fawlty]

BA has problems....there are a multitude of reasons for this, overstaffing, hence poor productivity, managers in fantasyland etc. etc. One reason is due to a lot of very historical pay and working practice agreements which have built up over the years and have not been sufficiently updated in the face of new, aggressive competition.
I have every sympathy for the comparatively new 'C' scale pilots, you guys/girls have really missed the boat big time and deserve a good double digit payrise. At the other end of the vastly extruded payscale now I see people who were sponsored completely through training, joined a nationalised industry 30 years ago, on comparitively good pay with respect to productivity, flying an average of just 500 hours a year (when not on standdown), now earning an absolutely vast salary compared to their junior collegues. Even a top S.F.O is earning 2.5 times the pay of a new starter for fundamentally the same job and a senior Capt is earning seven times as much! However I don't see the senior people agreeing to a restructuring of the payscale to make it fairer to their junior collegues and at the same time not sticking the knife in to that very sick animal that is BA.
Theres a lot of talk on here about "solidarity" but even if there was a significant payrise, say 10%, then 10% of £20k is really not going to improve the standard of living of a junior FO very much, whereas 10% of £140k buys a lot of stuff, especially a good final salary based pension for someone at the top of the list. The interests and ambitions of pilots in a particular airline are seldom similar or united. BALPA has let you all down big time by failing to stop the rot when it first started a decade ago. This will now be impossible to reverse, the damage is done. Also BALPA has been preoccupied with looking after the interests of the senior people (seniority numbers above say 800) who pay the most subs, at the expense of everyone else mainline and especially you franchise guys and anyone in any other airline. This has actually held back some degree of modernisation and is part of the cause of BA's woes today. I have no direct knowledge of BA cabin crew salaries, but I am told by several sources that again the senior people, mainline CSD's etc are really raking it in. In fact a couple of fairly young BA cabin crew have just bought a £300000 house in the next village. Ok so its two salaries, but thats still good going for people in that job!!

[Shadowpurser]

Basil - just because 2 junior crew buy a £300 grand house doesn't mean they are raking it in. I live in £150 grand flat on my own and afford it very comfortably (thing is I paid half of that for it!!). What I'm saying is if they both had they're own places before this property boom and have decided to buy a house together chances are they've both done very well and have put a sizeable chunk down as a deposit. Add to this low interest rates and a £300 grand house is not a problem.

You guys have a pay claim, so kick your union up the arse and get them to do something about it. Please don't blame yours or the company woes on us or a few high paid CSD's on old contracts.

[Hand Solo]

Basil - I think I agree with what your saying (but it is a bit late at night!), but I think its important not to get into the practice of trying to boost junior salaries by robbing from senior people. Regardless of past unfairness, either perceived or real, the only way to improve conditions is a net increase in the Flight Ops salary budget. Endless shuffling around of the same cash between different people is only palliative and does nothing to improve prospects in the long term. The current pay restructuring proposal aims to improve the lot of everyone, but with the emphasis on those who are most 'behind the curve'.

[Shuttleworth]

the only way to improve conditions is a net increase in the Flight Ops salary budget.

Here,here!
Jeez, I only wish more pilots would realise this simple fact...

[Crash_and_Burn]

Bronco,

It was a pleasure to read you post, it is the first time I have seen anything but the slagging off of Non-Flying BA staff on this website.

a) Firstly my postings on Wednesday I took my lunch from just before 1pm GMT till just before 2pm GMT, and during that time I made a couple of posts and eat a sandwich and took a quick walk down "the Street". As for my post at 1055 GMT, my computer was churning through a report that takes about 10 mins to run, so in the meantime, while I was waiting for the output I logged on and felt the need to write a post. You'll notice that this is not a daily occurrence, such as yesterday when I did not logon at all. (I didn't even get a chance to stop for lunch):eek:

b) My profile does indeed say Professional Layabout, which I'm sure my wife would agree with. It is listed as that, mainly as a joke and also to protect my anonymity, as I'm the only guy in the organisation who does my job role. If I put the role down everyone would pretty well much know who I was. Sort of makes it pointless me calling myself C&B.:

c)

i) Speaking for my current department, it is staffed with some of the smartest people I have ever met. In my own way I know I'm no thicko, but the odd person in here makes me feel like the village idiot. Although intimidating it makes me feel good about the work we produce. In my previous department, everyone I worked with held a degree, okay there was no Oxbridge grads, but then BA does not pay enough to attract them does it?

ii) The nature of the work we do here excludes the possibility of just hiring anyone willy nilly. Everyone has to go through aptitude testing (which doesn’t include spelling, sorry!):D

iii) I am very accountable for the quality of the output from my work. I will be slated by operations if I get it wrong, and that will directly affect my performance, and pay. So yup we are accountable. Again in my previous dept, we were accountable especially if we had problems in an operational area. Our boss was on the phone at 10 min intervals finding out how we were getting on.

d) I am not a manager, I'm A scale. I do have an MG, SM and GM above me. We need all three of them as they all do a lot of work and at different levels. When one of them is off, the person below ends up covering for them and working even longer hours. I agree that BA could be a flatter structure, but to do that in my area would mean demoting a very talented and smart individual.


E) Nope I had not heard that one, and yes I agree that the guy involved did not perform. Like the pilots, the majority of people I come in contact with and know are accountable for the quality of their work. We might not lose our jobs if we get it wrong, but it would not exactly be a career enhancing move.

F) No I had not heard that one either, I'd be surprised if it was a feng shui meeting, but who knows. I have turfed people out of meeting rooms before, I have it booked at X hour and another meeting over-runs - then sorry, but my job is important too, so out you go; . I have turfed out a delegation from Airbus from a meeting room before because they overran. The idea of any meeting should be get in, make a decision and get out. I know a lot of them do not work that way, but how you would solve that problem? I'm not sure. I can assure everyone, you do need meetings, and places to have them. The trick is to keep them short and to the point.

G) No-one is employed to fill the printers with toner and paper, you do it yourself. This is not Labor Party headquarters and I'm not Two-Jags Prescott. I get off my butt and do it myself. If I get dirty doing it I take more care next time. Our secretary (1 person for 20 odd people) does order the stationary etc. but that is like pulling teeth.

h) The only grads I have know in the past have been dropped into the deep end and done things like Station Manager HKG or T1 duty manager. It could have been that this grad joined and dis-organised dept, or the person in charge of them was on leave etc.. who knows.


i) I know you guys do spend lots of time away form home etc.. I have the luxury of going home every night, sometimes at 4 o'clock, other at 10pm. It all depends on the day. We get paid for 7 1/2 hours a day. The average round here is probably 9 or 10, but if there is work to do you do it and go home afterward.


The reason I started to comment on this thread was the vast generalisations of some of the other posters that Waterside and basically any Non-pilot BA staff are useless and should be sacked. What a load of Cr@p. If you sacked everyone in this building today, the airline would be out of business tomorrow. Simple as that, just the same as if you sacked all of the crew or pilots.

Is money wasted in this building? Yes, not as much as there used to be, but yup!:mad:

Is BA's financial situation solely the responsibility of Skippy and Co? No of course not, we all have to help. Don't order stationary, take the bus instead of claiming for mileage, turn of your PC and the end of the day, work bloody hard to make up for the 40 odd percent of staff that have disappeared in the past few months.

Is BA's financial position the result of Skippy and Co? No, of course not. World economic downturns, Sept 11th, increase competition from the low cost boys etc. And no, we cannot just take up the low cost model just like that. We are a full service outfit, and are going to stay as a full service outfit. Plus QueasyJet and Ryanair had the luxury of starting from scratch to keep costs down. if you want to follow suit, we would have to scrap all of the crew agreements, allowance scales etc.. Totally re-write your contacts.. Would you guys like that? :confused:

Personally I think the strategy we have adopted is pretty good, it was working at the beginning of last year, and with a couple of modification through FSAS it is working today. we are slowly recovering, which is more than can be said for some of the other airlines out there (UA USair Swissair Sabena etc..) You cannot expect a miracle overnight recovery.

I fully understand that the Pilots have had low pay rises in the past few years and I agree that you are entitled to a decent pay rise, but is this the time to be doing it? I don't think so, but you guys have had to wait a long time and waiting some more will be very difficult.

Is putting the future of the airline and everyone’s jobs at risk worth your pay rise now, or would it be better to get a bigger rise next year when we can afford it?

You guys have to remember, if they give you a big rise, because your threaten a strike, what is stopping the Cabin Crew or Engineers from doing the same? Either of those two groups can ground the airline is a flash as well. Giving 4000 pilots a 20 percent rise would end up with about 20000 people getting a 20 percent rise when they all threaten to topple the company as well. Not a situation I hope we get into. I have a mortgage to pay:eek:

Anyway, enough from me. Just remember we all work here together, this them and us attitude is straight from the playground and makes us look like a bunch of moronic fools.

C&B

[Notso Fantastic]

Thank you for your input Crash&Burn. Never in the history of PPrune (the Professioanl Pilots network) has a non-pilot had so much to say about pilot pay issues (apart from maybe that esteemed sage on all things aviation, the Guvnor!). Now perhaps time to get back to the office or your own professional forum?

[Crash_and_Burn]

Notso,

As we live in a free Country (not some Nazi infested hole) I am allowed to comment upon whatever I wish.

Not that you care, I hold a PPL, I was accepted onto the BA Cadet Scheme (No mean feat in itself) passed the class one medical, then was unable to start the course for reasons that are none of your bl00dy business. BA was good enough not to discard me and I now fulfil a very useful role.

If you do not wish to hear what I have to say on this or any matter, then you are free not to read any posts I make. I cannot make posts in the BA pilots only section of this fourm, so why don't you go there?

As I said this them and us or the I'm a pilot I'm superior attitude is straight from the playground and just makes people who take part in it look like mentally challenged prat's. Non-pilots make a valuable contribution to your everyday working life, so why not on PPRUNE?

Feel free not to read this!:eek: :D :)

Back to work....................................................

C&B

P.S. As a BA staff member I do have a vested interest in Pilot's pay. The financial situation of the company determins if I have a job or not. You guys demanding huge pay increases will affect the company's financial situation, therefore it affects me. You do not live in a goldfish bowl, you know!:eek:

[overstress]

Crash:

I think you'll find that NotSo is already 'in' the pilots only forum.

In his defence, I think you'll find he is saying thay pilot pay is actually pilot business. Of course you can comment, but if you stood and made your opinions aloud in, say, the crew reporting area in the Compass centre, you might get a frosty reception.

Likewise if I stood in the middle of 'the street' we all in BA hear so much about,, and started propounding my theories through a loudhailer, I might reasonably expect some abuse (apart from getting wet feet)

These are public access forums aimed at Professional Pilots - don't be surprised if you find some people object to your comments.

[AlphaCharlie]

Guys and gals,

Let's calm it down a bit. 2% pay rise might not be what you hoped for, it might not be what you deserve, but the argument of 'pilots in the US get more why can't we' doesn't hold anymore. Maybe 15 months ago yeah, and maybe 15 months ago BA should have been offering you guys a better deal, but they didn't.

It the current climate, no aviation based company is able to offer great pay deals (with the exception of Go, Easy, Ryan etc.). You should all be thankful that you still have jobs - 13,000 at your company don't anymore, and you should be happy that BAs restructing plans didn't include the rumoured drastic cuts like no more shorthaul or massive longhaul route cutting - that would have put hundreds of BA pilots out of work.

Yes, 2% might be below inflation, but so..... State pensions never rise in line with inflation. Teachers, doctors, nurses etc haven't seen good pay deals in decades. Students are leaving uni with approx. £15,000 debt and their tution fees increase each year well above inflation, whilst student loans don't.

Life isn't fair. The industry was suffering before 9/11, but that day a bunch of prats severely crippled your industry. I suggest if you're not happy with the offer then quit. There are more than enough pilots to take you place. Go work for Easy/Go or Ryan. It's 6 of one half a dozen of the other, at BA you moan about the pay at Ryan air you'll moan about the work load. Why don't you pop your heads into the wannabes section: there are hundreds of people desperate for a chance to get in the RHS. For god's sake there is a scrap currently going on for 6 (yes that's right 6) sponsored places with Britannia.

Just sit tight, things will either improve or BA will flounder and it won't matter either way. But don't let BA flounder because you guys decide to cripple its schedule by striking. The public will end up disliking BA, but hating you (take a look at the London Underground, they strike every 5 mins, rarely get a better deal, cause choas and alienate the public from their cause). Money ain't everything, and it's not like you're all struggling.

Anyway, enough rambling. If any of you want to quit, I know 30 people who'll take you sit in a flash.

[GS-Alpha]

Crash_and_Burn,

I for one appreciate your post on this forum regarding pilot pay. It is not often I get to hear things from anything other than a pilot's point of view... However, I do have a point to make…

When I began my training as a cadet for BA, I was three months away from the completion of a PhD. I stopped that dead, when I was given the opportunity to fly for BA. Almost all of the cadets on my course had good degrees and those that did not were not old enough to have obtained them but were more than capable.

I am not telling you all this to blow smoke up my own rear, or indeed that of BA cadets in general, I am simply trying to give you an indication of the calibre of people that BA take on as cadets… you know this because you yourself were accepted onto the scheme. To all none BA cadets , I am not for one minute insinuating that these qualities make us better pilots. I am simply trying to demonstrate that we could all do many other jobs and certainly earn a lot more money elsewhere. Many of my fellow cadets came from very high salaried backgrounds, and all of my university friends are earning between my salary several multiples of my salary. Those the lower salaries (comparable to mine) are working in Science research institutions… which are notoriously underpaid.

Many here will be saying, if you want more money, go get another job. The fact is that we do not want other jobs because we enjoy flying. However, that does not mean that we should be underpaid for it! By that argument, if we enjoy it so much, why don’t we work for free? (No comments please).

In the few years I have worked for BA, I have seen terms and conditions and relative pay, deteriorate considerably. At this rate, we will be akin to bus drivers by the time we retire. That is not the kind of career I want, and if things do not improve soon, I will be off. This is a feeling shared by many of my friends. There may be many pilots that wish to fill our shoes, but they need varying degrees of training which takes both time and money. Why not put that money into the salaries of the pilots who are already here and prevent this exodus from BA? If pilots come to BA for a few years and then leave for greener pastures, (which is what I can see occurring if things aren’t improved), BA will end up with very inexperienced flight decks in the future, which WILL impinge on safety.

Your argument for 20,000 people asking for a 20% salary rise if we get our way is an interesting one. It is probably correct that the cabin crew will want a rise, but one of the aims of negotiations is to try and create a differential between pilot and cabin crew salaries. As for the engineers… they are highly undervalued within the company too. To add a further point, it is my understanding that the intention of the pay negotiations is simply to keep the flight operations salary budget constant over the next few years… As the high seniority pilots retire they are replaced by a lower salaried pilot. Without the pay increase we are asking for, the pilot employment budget would actually decrease each year over the next 5 or so years.

[overstress]

GS Alpha
ll your points are true & valid especially about the flt ops budget.

Alpha Charlie i don't know which management post you fill but I would like to refute your points.

BA is hugely overmanned - in tiers of middle management. Not flt ops which is one of the leanest in the world.

We do not subscribe to the theory that we should feel lucky to have a job. You are assisting in the GREAT LIE - that BA can't afford to pay its pilots more. Well I have news for you. If BA doesn't pay its pilots considerably more very soon, it will not have a functioning airline when we fail to report on day one.

Your arguments are so weak they don't hold water:

<no aviation based company is able to offer great pay deals (with the exception of Go, Easy, Ryan etc.). >

So you just mean BA then?

<Just sit tight, things will either improve or BA will flounder and it won't matter either way. But don't let BA flounder because you guys decide to cripple its schedule by striking>

So we are to sit tight and watch our salary fall behind inflation on your say-so, are we? How long for exactly? Until we all qualify for income support?

<The public will end up disliking BA, but hating you >

I don't give a monkeys what the public think. Nor do our BALPA negotiators - this is a discussion about pay, not a popularity contest.

<Anyway, enough rambling. If any of you want to quit, I know 30 people who'll take you sit in a flash>

I think you mean you have a queue of wannabes - they actually have to pass selection first, then groundschool, then sim training, base training then line training - 40+ sectors for 'cadets'. This takes a few months. Not a flash. BA has just taken on 167 cadets. The airline has a recruitment freeze.

Most of your posting is irrelevant to any BA pilot pay negotiations as you don't seem to have a grasp of the issues at stake.

PS - 9-11 will soon be an anniversary of a tragic event. It is already just part of aviation history. It has no relevance to our pay negotiations.

[Notso Fantastic]

Alpha Charlie (or is it 'Right' Charlie), I hope you are not the naive fool you come across in that post. I don't know why this issue of pilot pay is bringing all the dorks out of the cracks in the walls. There is no point in even trying to discuss it here! If you go through life with such attitudes, are you ever going to be taken advantage of (and broke). You appear to be a student- don't try and give adults advice Sonny!

[AlphaCharlie]

Notso,

Man my post does sound extremely naive!! Sorry. I had no intention of patronising anyone or coming across as so childish.

You're right, I am a student, and the main reason I am concerned with the pay dispute at BA is because I don't wish to see them go under. Losing BA (whatever your opinion of them) would change british aviation drastically, and from the point of view of a wannabe pilot, BA have been the only airline to offer sustained sponsorship to zero hours students over a long period of time.

I'm just fed-up of my summer job, dreading another (but thank god my final) year at uni, and desperately trying to find a way to afford atpl training next year.

No offense (spelling??) meant.

[Bucking Bronco]

Crash and Burn,

thank you for your response.



Alpha Charlie

for the record you talk about student debt - I graduated in 1996 and am still paying mine off. I've been under BA's wing now for 5 1/2 years and will not have paid off my student/training debt to the bank, government or BA until at the earliest - winter 2004. Meanwhile all the usual outgoings. I could do with a rise to help me pay off these debts.


Q: - Can anybody tell me exactly what the latest figures are for how many people have left since FSS has started, both in Man Power Equivalents and actual bodies leaving?


Cheers

BB

ps and before someone else says it, yes the quick answer is not enough!

[Crash_and_Burn]

BB,

About 7700 people out the door, or excuse me, MPE's (Man Power Equivelents).

I totally agree that it is not enough, but a sufficent amount from my Dept, thank you very much!!):D Hopefully it will get better.

Overstressed,

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with my opinion. By publishing it here I'm opening myself up to be ridiculed, and I understand that. I'm always willing to listen to anothers point of view as long as it is a reasoned and logical argument, not a gross and outright lie or generalisation. If I'm wrong, tell me why!?!

What I do have a problem with is someone telling me I have no right to comment or even be here. Anyone who thinks that need to grow up!:eek:

Ah well it is a sunny sunday morning, I'm off out to my Patio to drink a cup of coffee in the sun and read the newspaper.

C&B

[Bucking Bronco]

Crash and Burn,

7,700 MPE! As we both concur that is not enough; especially if all those part timers/unpaid leave takers want to come back. So given that BA is overstaffed compared with other National flag carriers (lets not even start to think about the low costs yet) where does the fat lie? Some possibilities...

i) Too many pilots?
From last years BALPA pay review figures the pilots know its definately not them!

ii) The whole of Waterside?
I accept that Waterside on its own only holds 4,000 so axing that completely would be stupid and like farting in a hurricane.

iii) Too many engineers?
Absolutely not! Even the guys based at out stations are treated as seperate cost centres and (I believe/am told) make money from 3rd party work.

iv) Checkin staff?
Do we need these down route? In JFK I'd say yes, in Oslo perhaps not.

v) Information Management? I know they've been under the microscope since FSS, but in 2000/2001 there were more IMs employed than Pilots. (Yet still they couldn't make Amadeus run smoothly!) As Peter's would say "Stick to your core business" are we an airline or an IT firm?

vi) A general layer of fat around the whole company? For example in spring 2001 a lady from finance dept told me during my Command Development Course that external auditors had concluded that her dept was 20% overstaffed.

vii) Some other dept that I can't think of?


My own personal opinion is (vi), this would fit nicely in with the recognition that BA owing to its nationalised hang over still has people willingly participating in Empire building for its own sake.

The bigger my dept the more important we are, look at the crap spouted off in Jobscan. Its no wonder with fancy job titles and fancy job descriptions that people get above themselves and demand higher more, in my mind a "Public Waste, Refuse and Sanitation Executive" is a Bin Man.

So if it is acknowledged that we are to hierarchical, that we need a flatter, leaner, proactive, accountable and empowered structure. The answer is the same as I've advocated before - get rid of the dossers and keep the stars rewarding them better so we can recruit and retain the best in all areas.

Meanwhile while we are waiting for this to happen the pilots who are acknowledged as being the among the best and most efficient continue to get shafted with derisory pay offers of 1%. Management I believe are having there pay review after the workers I note - could it be that the more we get screwed the more they get?



Cheers

BB

[Notso Fantastic]

Alpha Charlie- forgiven. But you must understand that a company that cannot afford to upgrade its employees pay over a sustained period, even remotely keeping up with inflation, has run its course and probably does not deserve to survive. It has got fat and the Board has totally lost direction (Marconi, BT are glowing examples). Sometimes it is better if the end is 'encouraged' before the employees end up on Family Credit. To what extent do you think employees should taken eternal belt tightening? Certainly for a year or two to help the company over a bad patch, but when the company has become as bloated and inefficient and over-fascinated with 'high profile' company plans, and expects constant sacrifice and belt tightening, then the employees should call a halt. That is what we are seeing in BALPA at the moment. The pilots have decided with the rest of the world FAR better paid, it is time for BA to cough up rather than have the Board awarding itself ever higher benefits and share options (which for them are 'in line with payments to Board members in International competitors'). This doesn't stretch to pilot pay. Would YOU like to eventually join a company where pilots are broke, or would you like BA to be forced to become more efficient or bust? The bust bit is not so frightening. UKplc needs all those services- the gap will be filled. With the impending pilot shortage (cadets being recruited soon into BA), pilots should allow their value in the market place to adjust their salaries. It's not just IM specialists and accountants who should be thought of as valuable- pilots are responsible for far far more!

I was flying 737s in '95. Today I fly 747s on up to 13hr 39 flights. My take home pay is about 15% more than in '95. Now I don't make 8.5% salary Pension contributions. Not very good is it? Do YOU really want to pay a fortune and carry debts for years in a industry that treats its key workers like this? I've seen the figures for what the Board has paid itself over that time- it would make your eyes pop! Don't forget Browns hidden tax hikes mean a 3% LOSS of income next year alone from tax alone. There comes a time when you say 'No way Jose!'