Frosty end to first VIP flight

[Wirraway]

Wed "Herald Sun" 21/8/02

Frosty end to first VIP flight
By IAN McPHEDRAN
21aug02

THE Federal Government's brand new Boeing 737 VIP jet has suffered a major teething problem.

The 737-800 Boeing business jet was stranded in Sydney on Saturday night with frosted wings.
It had just landed from Fiji with Prime Minister John Howard, his wife Janette, staff, RAAF personnel on board.

De-icing equipment failed as the jet waited to fly on to its base in Canberra at the end of its inaugural VIP flight.

A fire truck was called to hose down the jet's wings, but by the time the ice melted Sydney airport's 11pm noise curfew was in force.

A smaller Falcon VIP jet was flown from Canberra, at a cost of about $6000 to taxpayers, to carry staff, officials and RAAF crew home to Canberra. Falcon jets are exempt from the Sydney noise curfew.

The incident came at the end of the Pacific Islands Forum in Fiji.

The 737 VIP jet is one of two operated by the RAAF. Fitted out for $11 million, it has a small office, first-class sleeper seats and a bathroom

[Lapsus linguae]

Was it due to a large load of fuel remaining on arrival, ice on the top can happen when tanking.

[Capt Fathom]

I have not had/seen this problem in my time...not to the extent that you would need to deice the wings(in Sydney!!)...must be more to the story.

[jtr]

Not an uncommon occurence in humid enviro, where the fuel is cold soaked (especially if you have been playing with your new toy at/near max alt, and the trop is high)
Have seen it on the ground when ambient temp was 28ish. Solution: refuel... possible problems, if next sector is a shorty and MLW limiting, you cant put on enough gas to dilute the cold fuel. Solution: Bring in the -900 ($6000 return cost of the Falcon... sounds awful cheap to me)

[ulm]

hahahaha

Couldn't have to poor little RAAFies stranded overnight now could we, poor precious little darlings. :D

I remember may years ago, before the helicopters were tuned over to people who knew what to use them for, a Huey turned up at Shoalwater Bay in pissing rain.

The little precious ones jumped out, flight suits all clean and ironed with thier little overnight bags, and asked me if there was transport to take them to their accomodation.

I looked under the chopper and remarked that their accomodation looked a lot drier than mine. They got all upset and thought an army corporal should salute an airforce officer...hmm stupid concept :D where did they get that silly idea from.

I wonder if the RAAF has worked out a ROSSO for the 737 pilots, or whether a certain big stuff up of a few years back (707 training in the US) has been repeated.

And while I'm started, Air6000, zoomie toys for befeathered idiots. How about replacing useful aircraft ... the Caribou you morons :mad: and spend the change on schools and hospitals!!!!

Air force, what a bloody waste of money!!!!! :mad: :mad:

[Trash Hauler]

ULM

Sounds like you have one huge chip on your shoulder mate.

As for the story.............

I for one am very interested in the cause of the icing and that they had to make a de-ice attempt.

Very strange indeed.

:(

[fruitloop]

Hehehehe:D :D

Maybe the RAAFies and some of the other operaters of this type should start to read some of the A.D.'s

(with new types A.D.'s are some times weekly !!!)

[Trash Hauler]

fruitloop

It sounds like you know something!

Any chance of some more information. I did a quick scan of 737 ADs and didn't spot an obvious one for this.

Thanks

Trash Hauler

:confused:

[Capt Fathom]

Hmmm...?
Airliners have been flying into SYD for decades...I've never seen one that needed deicing before...:confused:
Sounds like bs to me!

[alphaball]

ulm,

You obviously have the charm and intellect of an outstanding Army Corporal. You must have been a great loss to the infantry when you learned to read, had a shower and started flying aircraft.

alphaball

[bitter balance]

ULM, not buying into the inter service rivalry - BUT :) . I'm not convinced the Army's record of helicopter operations really stacks up that well.

[No Further Requirements]

Ulm,
Army concepts of helicopter mainetance...

"Let's form up and see if everyone has their field kit together"

"But the choppers need fixing...."

"Look, we are infantry first, aviation technicians second! Now, where are your three pair of socks, green Mister!"

Sorry mate, giving the choppers to you blokes was a big mistake. That is why you still have to get RAAFies to manage your chopper logistics.

Cheers,

NFR.

[Lapsus linguae]

Haven't seen any ice on the classic, but not uncommon on the NG.

[mutt]

We routinely have to limit the arrival fuel on B777s to avoid overwing icing, I guess that the 737NG suffers from the same problem!

Mutt.

[ulm]

Good point, the RAAF should manage logistics, it is all they are good at :)

Only two corps in the military, arms corps and support corps. Guess where the RAAF fit in :D

As for the chip. It got splintered off when a huge waste of money fell on my shoulder. Those of you who so love the precious service may care to point out why the hardest working A/C keeps getting ignored for useless toys. Perhaps the medium cap haulers (aka Gravel Trucks) need to be in 5 Avn too :cool:

Oh and while we are at it, the rumor (very substantiated) of F111s taking a joly over to East Timor just so the crews could get an ASM. Hmmm :mad: WOFTAM.

Beware, ULM has a dual personality ... ask Gaunty ;)

[ozbiggles]

Ulm re your first post

The Raafies stayed in a dry motel and got appx $100 allowances.
You stayed under a thin piece of plastic and got $15 field allowance.

which ones are the idiots?:p

[IwantmyHUDback]

Ulm,

Its called 'Reconnaissance' you moron.

[zippyz]

Operating the -700 around Europe at relatively high altitudes (41K) we usually plan arrival fuel less than 3000Kgs and I am sure there was something from Boeing about it. It is a problem here but some sensible fuel planning fixes it. I am surprised that it would be a problem in Aussie but I guess it is winter there, you poor sods :)

Straight from a Boeing pilot, when he looked the the rather minor amount of quite thin ice that actually accumualtes (and it is only a patch inboard of the wing usually on bothe lower and upper surfaces, his opinion was 'Hell, just fly with it.. no trouble'

[fruitloop]

Very good Zippyz

Unfortunately,in Aus the paper trail from manufacturer to owner
then to leeser,then to ops/record/planning then possibly to engineeing/flight ops can be a very curvy road :D :D

[topend3]

737-800 BBJ ? the BBJ is based on the -700 series 737, not the -800

[Roller Merlin]

Ulm,
You seem very naive with regard to VIP ops. Getting the PM, his VIPs and their staff to the destination safely is the highest priority, with their hectic schedules and all. The extra RAAF crew would may have travelled if there was spare space, or they were needed back home for other tasking.

Your wind-ups are in poor taste.

[Going Boeing]

Ulm, for an aviator you really have a big chip on your shoulder.

FYI the funding for the VIP aircraft does not come out of the defence budget, so there is no conflict for scarce defence force funds.

As far as the Army's helicopter operations go, a friend of mine does periodic training of Army "ground engineers". He says the lack of interest from these guys is unreal. They have had drummed into them that they are "grunts" first and "ground engineers" a long way second and it really shows in the availablity (or lack thereof) of helicopters on the flight line. A little refocusing is required.

Apologies for continuing off the original thread. GB

[Flight Detent]

Makes me wonder what the fuel temperature got down to, in relation to it's freezing point, plus three!
Cheers

[ulm]

GB

In Townsville the engineers are contracted civvies (mostly ex-RAAF), only a few are Army.

I don't know the availability rate, but it must match the Boos. Whilst in darwin in the early 90s we ordered Boos, and got so many knockbacks we started using our own chartered Navajo. TAAMS in Darwin were great, the aircraft were just neglected, and so back to my original point, so the comfort loving zoomies could have their WOFTAM toys.

As for Army helo ops, there is a huge disparity in what people think is right and wrong here. I for one think it perfectly right that these crews are soldiers first. That is why they do a good job. In the 70s and 80s 'air support' was non-existant cos the RAAF were too busy pretending to be shot-shy airline pilots.

Ozbiggles, no they didn't. We wouldn't take them ;)

[203]

ulm... a text-book example of an under-achiever at high school, pre- drop out, who has spent the subsequent years lamenting his wasted time. If you'd tried harder, maybe you could've been an officer too.

I met Cpls like you in the army and always laughed at their working class attitude. Resentment of the officer class doesn't stop them heaping attitude, usually at the detriment of efficiency, upon the ranks below them (and there aren't many). My friend, you put the 'Jerk' in 'A.J.'

203.

PS you spelt 'umm' wrong

[Chimbu chuckles]

I had the missfortune of working with an ex army 'aviator' recently...if he's typical thank god there's been no wars lately...such a shame 'fragging' went out of style in the mid 70s.

Chuck.

[Russell The Lov]

Ulm

You are a Corporal. Therefore you do not fly aeroplanes. All you are entitled to do is shut up.

Now **** off, go find some mud to roll in, and stop wasting valuable people's time and oxygen.

Mate the Defence force may be a big game, but the RAAFies got the best toys. You got mud, rat packs, and a piece of plastic to call home. You are one jealous flog.

LOOOOOOOOOOOSERRRRR.

Dumb grunt - now that's tautology. (Ulm, perhaps a RAAF officer could explain to you what tautology is).

[Arm out the window]

You're pretty full of it there Ulm.

What a load of crap, soldiers first and aviators second.
There's not enough time in the day for aircrew to waste time playing grunt; or do you like your taxes being wasted?

How about air assets train to the maximum of their ability to be good at the job they're there for?

One recurring problem with Army Aviation, and the RAAF too, is that too many commanders can't see the wood for the trees and would rather spend their time making themselves look good, than
concentrating on making sure their units can do the job when called upon.

And air support was non-existent in the 80s was it? How do you explain all those times that 3 Bde had 8 or 10 Hueys sitting in the bush for at High Range or Shoalwater bay for a fortnight at a time moving grunts and guns around, and then when the helos went to the Army they magically found that the same number of aircraft could still only support the same number of exercises, no matter who was operating them? Less, in fact, because of all the maintenance expertise that was lost to the fleet?

On another note, to the previous poster, how about we don't descend into kiddie-style name calling?

[Spad]

ulm, I seem to remember from some of your earlier posts that you are ex-(post 89)Ansett. The utter ass you’ve made of yourself on this thread should convince even the most charitable that the assertions of ‘the 89ers’ regarding the standard of ‘pilot’ accepted by Ansett in 89-90 was everything they said it was.

[Woomera]

I think this has gone far enough chaps so back to your respective Mess please.