CX offers Hong Kong pilots, cabin crew voluntary redundancy

[jetjockey696]

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3131364/cathay-pacific-offers-hong-kong-pilots-cabin-crew

[Curry Lamb]

Could you copy and paste the article, as not all players on these forums have a South Commie Morning Post subscription.

[Jim-J]

VSS now, forced redundancies thereafter....

[Veruka Salt]

You don’t need a subscription to view the article. Clear out your cookies etc.

[Walkingthedog]

Jim-J

Very “convenient” as now it’s based on COS18🙄

[Jnr380]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x549/98e2162f_9fb3_4083_a1ee_a48dd8276ec1_1b71dd82a00ae45d40a60b3 8c7ae98c8d27145a7.png
I saw this the other day, seems appropriate. It’s always front line staff in the crosshairs, very rarely middle or senior management, who seem to create more management jobs for non-existing staff

[Pistolpete47]

Seems like a gentle push to people that are already wanting to leave anyway. Maybe this along with people forced out bc of the visa issue could be all resizing that needs to happen.

[Curry Lamb]

It’s all political. Puppet masters up north, pulling strings to make space for GREATER BAY AIRLINES, who will announce very soon that their AOC has been approved (surprise, surprise), and starting ops out of Hongkers by Q4 :ok:

Vamos!

[Jnr380]

Going by the government’s inability to lie convincingly, the borders will miraculously open when GBA starts operations

[Pistolpete47]

Yeah you're conspiracy theories make much more sense. 😣

[Curry Lamb]

Veruka Salt

There you go, lazy :mad:

Cathay Pacific is offering its Hong Kong-based pilots, cabin crew and airport staff voluntary redundancy, part of a deepening effort to cut costs as the airline warned its business was not improving.

Hong Kong’s struggling flag carrier (https://amp.scmp.com/topics/cathay-pacific?src=amp-article-text&module=inline&pgtype=article&campaign=) told staff on Tuesday it saw “no discernible improvement” in the short to medium term, prompting the company to ask employees if they wanted to leave their jobs. The airline said it would continue to operate a skeleton passenger flight schedule for “some considerable time”.

The voluntary redundancies are tied to the near-total collapse of the passenger flight market amid the global coronavirus pandemic (https://amp.scmp.com/topics/coronavirus-pandemic-all-stories?src=amp-article-text&module=inline&pgtype=article&campaign=), with the ripple effects being felt across the group’s operations that rely on travellers.

Cathay Pacific’s catering business was also seeking volunteers for redundancy, but budget carrier HK Express was not planning to shed jobs, a source familiar with the situation said.

The carrier cut (https://amp.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3106365/cathay-pacific-eliminate-8500-job-posts-hk22-billion?src=amp-article-text&module=inline&pgtype=article&campaign=) 5,900 jobs last year and lost HK$21.6 billion (US$2.8 billion). Last week, it revealed it was planning the closure of the first of several overseas pilot crew bases, placing hundreds of jobs at risk.

The airline employed around 2,600 pilots and 10,000 cabin crew locally out of a total workforce of 19,452 as of the end of 2020. Across the broader Cathay Pacific Group, which includes its subsidiary budget airline, cargo terminal and catering businesses, about 25,600 were employed.

A company source said there was no set target for how many volunteers for the redundancy programme it would require.

A Cathay Pacific spokeswoman confirmed the move to staff: “Based on requests from some of our employees, we have decided to offer certain of our employee groups (pilots, cabin crew and airport employees, etc) the option of a voluntary separation scheme. We are providing support to all those who apply, including a competitive exit package.”

Deborah McConnochie, Cathay’s general manager for aircrew, told pilots in a memo: “Our working environment remains incredibly challenging, and the Covid-19 pandemic continues to have a devastating impact on our business.”

She cited the rising number of coronavirus cases, especially those tied to new mutant strains, as a factor for restricting the number of flights the airline could operate worldwide. Given that bleak outlook, the company was now seeking volunteers to walk away from their jobs, she said.

Jeanette Mao, the airline’s general manager overseeing in-flight service, including cabin crew, added: “We are still in a very dynamic situation and we will continue to undertake measures to help manage our position and remain agile in our response.”

In the memo, the airline said the voluntary separation scheme was open to all pilots with more than six months until retirement. Pilots were told they would have two weeks until May 12 to sign up, with employment to cease by May 31 for those opting in.

Mao went on to say voluntary redundancy was being offered to “frontline teams” working at Hong Kong International Airport as well.

“While the departure of our valued colleagues is not something we hoped to see, we thought it would be worthwhile to provide an option for people who would like to leave us for personal reasons or to pursue other opportunities,” she said.

The carrier is still burning as much as HK$1.9 billion a month as the pandemic continues to strangle global travel.

Cathay Pacific was one of the first and hardest hit by the pandemic. Without a domestic flight network, it is reliant on cross-border travel, which remains largely non-existent due to travel restrictions.

The carrier is grappling with a surplus of pilots – particularly for its Boeing 777 fleet – as most of its passenger aircraft remain grounded, according to sources.

[Memorylapse]

Good luck fellas - time to start packing!

[dabz]

VSS now, forced redundancies thereafter....

Yep, CX did this last year also.

Offered an early retirement scheme(the smart ones took it) then not long after that a sign worse contract(POS18) or be terminated.

CX targeted 25% pax by mid 2021, the target has not been met.

Guesses for what comes next after this VSS?

[Pistolpete47]

Imo if you have PR you don't have too much to worry about.

[10yearsSO]

Any ballpark figure on what the pr/non pr ratio of cx guys are?

[LLLQNH]

rumours of around 500 or so. Looking at it would guess most of the non pr holders would be Second Officers, JFOs and a handful of Capt

[Curry Lamb]

DEFOs also, with a certain narcissistic social media butterfly that comes to mind :rolleyes:

[LLLQNH]

100% agreed! It's already nasty and only gonna get worse. They have no option when it comes to the next round of Layoffs Work-permits have to go before a single PR! Doesn't matter what they want this is a mandate from the Gov.

[Posterizing]

Thats quite a significant amount of crew if all of those were to be gone at once. I guess it'll depend how many of the non-pr guys are 777.

[AnAmusedReader]

In GMA's email, she says,"...based on requests from some of our employees, we believe it is appropriate to offer our pilots the option of a Voluntary Separation Scheme (VSS).
I wonder who these employees were, if in fact there were any. GMA wouldn't be telling porkies would she?

[Jetdream]

I don’t get why they are even offering this now? Why not just skip to redundancies?

[LLLQNH]

Really? Because it might save some jobs! They could potentially make redundant people who could have been safe had they offered a voluntary redundancy package. It's an attractive option for those without PR if you go by the signs of what's going on and what HKA have done, you'd be silly to not consider this option ahead of a compulsory redundancy if you are on a work-permit!

[Bokpiel]

Pistolpete47

The ones who keep complaining here about leaving are too hypocritical to actually leave. I don't have to mention names.

[SandwichOfficer]

CX 'management' will be sat down planning this restructuring to the n'th degree. It's an opportunity of a lifetime for them to get rid of whoever they want, and with little or no comeback from the employee group. Seniority, in this instance, is gone. Debs and The Jellyfish can make up their own matrix and then fire and hire at will. Anyone on disciplinary will be gone first. Then 777 will go but probably not the trainers. Locals will be able to stay whatever fleet they are on. And - MOST IMPORTANTLY - if you have over 100k instagram followers you are safe.

I would take the VSS and run. I wouldn't even put COS21 out of the question.

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

Commiserations to all those involved. What does the redundancy package look like? Would be interesting to compare with flag carriers in Western Europe.

[krismiler]

VSS now, forced redundancies thereafter....

Exactly what happened at SQ, however the Singapore Government openly backed the airline and pulled out the cheque book. Singapore Incorporated recognises the importance of the airline to the city state and won't let it go under. Even though it is over reliant on premium long haul connecting traffic which will take longer to recover, adjustments have been made and the red ink can be sustained from the massive government reserves.

EK are in a fairly similar position and will probably come through after some significant and painful adjustments, which will likely include retiring a significant number of A380s and replacing them with something easier to fill, then going cap in hand to Abu Dhabi for another bail out.

Unfortunately CX doesn't fit into China's grand aviation strategy, being a largely foreign company operating from a recalcitrant city and seen as a relic of the colonial days. Greater Bay Airlines can start off on a reasonable footing with the B737 and gradually establish a long haul network in line with the recovery, they aren't sitting with a fleet of 150 widebodies incinerating cash while waiting for an improvement in the long haul, premium, transit market which probably won't happen for another 2 - 3 years. Start off as a low cost with routes that look like making money and ramp up to long haul full service as demand recovers. CX will probably survive but be sidelined in a smaller form and won't be the world airline it was pre COVID

[CodyBlade]

recalcitrant city

Absolutely appropriate adjective.

Recall the stance and behavior from some of the employees during the pro-dem rallies.The die was cast even then.

[Curry Lamb]

Asia’s “World City” - lovely place, make it your permanent home :}

US sounds alarm over Hong Kong 'exit ban' fears
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1588364-20210429.htm

[10yearsSO]

CodyBlade

Management probably finds that adjective very fitting for us pilots as well.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Total thread drift but I thought it may be valuable to know for those considering staying in HK, the locals are abandoning ship. I'm in the UK, up north, in one of the bigger but not so famous towns... I had my house valued a few months ago and the valuer told me he was having a real problem as people from HK were coming in and buying up all of the houses in the area for cash and he can't reflect cash buyers in his valuation process so would have to undervalue the house compared to what we would likely sell it for. The reason? I live within catchment to one of the best non fee paying schools in the country. Caused me a pain as I was remortgaging to do some renovations... Anyway, found it interesting. Then this week I brought the kids to school and there were FOUR different families from HK whose kids were joining the school this week dropping their kids off. This is just one small school in a random town, I expect to see much more of it.

[stevieboy330]

I would not be surprised to learn Swire have already agreed to sell all or a large part of their shareholding to Air China & therefore the CCP.
Somewhere in Pacific Place there is a fat lady singing, though it gives me little pleasure to hear her....

[Jnr380]

I can only wish Swire sells out and let another company run it. First to get fired should be that lying GMA, followed by all the Swire princes that do not care if this place burns today, as tomorrow they’ll be on a plane with their bonuses to a new senior position to make it the most toxic place to work

[Farman Biplane]

The VSS offer is cheaper for the company to shed staff than a compulsory redundancy due to loss of work permit. EO provides for payout based on 12mth average monthly earnings, VSS is specifically based on the basic monthly salary ONLY.
The offer wouldn’t be there if it cost CX more money and I am sure that they have a very good idea how the visa situation will be resolved by HKGOV.

[Fly747]

Farman. I don’t believe that they have to pay you anything if you don’t get a work visa renewal.

[Jetdream]

Is the consensus that work permits will be cancelled or just not renewed?
What happens if your current permit takes you over 7 years?
Interesting times...

[Fly747]

There are no grounds to cancel visas unless you are made redundant. If you’ve got over the 7 yrs then you are safe in that respect but it still doesn’t mean that you won’t be made redundant.
Some pilots have got Quality Migrant Visas which are for six years and they are also safe from the visa point of view. The company themselves have never suggested this as an option but a few people have done it after having heard about it from colleagues.

[Jetdream]

Thanks for the info

[rustyoldtin]

Farman Biplane

Definitely not true. The EO has a cap of 22,500 HKD per month for the calculation. I think all monthly salaries are above this. And whats more.. in the event of redundancy, the company can offset this towards the provident fund contributions they have already paid.. so basically you get made redundant with 0.

[LLLQNH]

Jetdream

Not that they will be cancelled just no renewals and that any more involuntary redundancies are rumoured to be forced to come from work-permit holders (even if they aren't expired) first before anyone else can be made redundant. And obviously no new ones issued, why you see what's happening with the bases.

[doublelift]

It is actually very make sense for the company to sack the Visa holder first, if the IMMD has made a decision not to renew the pilot visa. It could be 2-3 years from now for cathay to fully utilize all the pilot again, by that time most of the visa holder would have their visa expired. All the training cost in this 2-3 years will be wasted, and the pilot are being paid to sit at home for doing nothing.

[Dan Winterland]

What happens if your current permit takes you over 7 years?

You have to apply for PR when you have achieved the seven years. I suspect PR will not be granted.

[CodyBlade]

correct.They will check if you are 'reliable' candidate first.

[Oasis]

doublelift

It is interesting that although we now have no seniority protection in case of layoffs, the visa policy of HKSAR will now make CX follow LIFO, in sense.

[Memorylapse]

Dan Winterland

Actually you start the application process 3 months before you reach your PR date.

[kahaha]

I remember the former KA GMO talking about removing allowances, ie housing, schooling, to pilots who were holding PR cards. His reasoning was that they were now ostensibly local pilots, and should not be eligible for expatriate allowances.

Ironically, this is now what has happened at cx. But without seniority.

I recon its a fair point regarding work permits. They should not be renewed in the current crisis. Local ATPL holders should be offered jobs as pilots in CX.

[CCA]

Even if you removed all non PR pilots from CX they still have too many pilots thus won’t need to hire any PR ATPL holders living in HK.

It will be years before they recruit DE again and the cadet process will continue for SOs.

[Rie]

kahaha, it is one thing to be offered an interview for a position but I do not believe that every single PR + ATPL holder from KA or HKA should be given a free job. Holding an ATPL is one thing but being suitable for a job is another. Should someone deemed substandard be given sympathy for the sole purpose of PR?

[doublelift]

CCA

But the hiring will come much faster when rebounce happen

[Curry Lamb]

By that time there will be self-flying planes, which negates the need for pilots. Autonomous cargo planes are only a few years away, to be followed by the rest.

[Walkingthedog]

Even without autonomous aircraft the question might will be does HKG need a longhaul carrier?
It could be equally well served by ANZ,QF,JAL, BA etc etc. Many small countries don’t have a flag carrier.
The mainland market is well covered by 3 large carriers.

[TimeToWhine]

CCA

Let’s look at the numbers, bear with me here...

At the moment, CX has about 3100 pilots including almost 600 on bases. From its peak of around 3400, since October last year CX has lost about 300 pilots. If we assume full base closures, and say only 200 of those based pilot return to HK, that leaves 2700 pilots, less natural attrition of a further 200 between now and end of the year leaves 2500 total CX pilots at end of 2021 (excluding VSS and any possible further redundancies).

Now this is all very hypothetical, however if we assume a full return of worldwide and HK air travel in 5 years from now to early 2019 levels (pre protest), Cathay will need its 3400 pilots back, plus the void from KA, a further 500 pilots totaling 3900 crew by mid 2026. If we take natural attrition over the next 5 years at say 150 pilots a year, that is a further 750 pilots Cathay will lose by mid 2026. Plainly, if Cathay doesn’t retain or recruit many pilot until that time, they will only have around 1750 pilots available which means they need to recruit around 2150 new pilots up to mid 2026. Remember, at best Cathay has only previously ever been able to recruit about 200 pilots a year including local cadets.

When global travel fully returns to normal, and it will, there will be a huge shortage of pilots as those that have left will not have been readily and naturally replaced from the bottom as flight schools and natural pilot progression are currently stagnant and will be for some time. This will lead to airlines falling over one another fighting to recruit quality pilots and how many will want to come to CX on COS18 or worse when they can have their pick. I’d assume quite a few still in CX at that time will be applying elsewhere also.

So to conclude, if I was Cathay, one way or another I would be trying to hold on to as many crew as I can. However, we all know how shortsighted they are so hopefully there’s still someone left to turn off the lights by then.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Pretty good breakdown, TTW.

Obviously the company are stuck between a rock & a hard place for now - haemorrhaging cash; so it’s prudent to shave costs where you can, but the cost of lost business down the line dwarfs our poor salary.

Obviously HK needs to open up at some point for that to manifest, but if it doesn’t, no amount of cost-cutting will see CX through.

[Walkingthedog]

CX in the 80s was very profitable with a much smaller footprint and higher crew costs.
Scanario 1: operate only routes that are profitable rather than ones that contribute.
Scenario 2: as above and sell it.
Scenario 3: resurrect the whole shooting match ex covid and sell it.
Scenario 4: resurrect cx as was and keep it instead of investing the dosh in property, insurance etc

Take your pick but I’d rather not own the airline stock.

[Curry Lamb]

TimeToWhine

CXi will NEVER return to pre china virus levels. They will survive, but it’s gonna be an insignificant little airline, flying cargo and low cost punters out of a mainland city, called Hong Kong, in competition with Greater Bay Airlines and whichever other LCCs will be operating in/out of CLK.

Anyone thinking or hoping otherwise: dream on!

[TimeToWhine]

Dingleberry Handpump

And therein lies the problem. A decision now that may look good for the short term, and earn the playmaker their golden bonus, can have dire consequences down the track. However, with the way the Cathay and Swire management structure works, those managers who make these decisions now will have moved up the ladder 2 positions by then and it will be someone else’s problem to deal with.

[TimeToWhine]

Curry Lamb

Yes, CX may very well not return to normal levels, but HK and global traffic will. Someone has to fly the punters and freight in and out. Whether it’s CX, GBA, HKA, Air China Hong Kong, or Cannot Airlines, unless the future reliance is on foreign carriers, HK as a whole will still need a large number of pilots that they won’t be able to readily pull from the local population.

[Table For 1]

TTW....I think you are ignoring the other story that has unfolded undercover of COVID. The destruction of HK democracy by Beijing significantly changes how future travellers will view it. I really think you are clutching at straws if you think HK will ever return to its former glory.

And the only realistic outcome for CX is inevitable as a result. Good luck.

[Stallone]

CX will not require that number of pilots after covid because if they're still alive by then, the fleet size is probably closer to 75% of what they have now

[Busbitch]

You are just a line on an excel spreadsheet that needs to be deleted.

[Posterizing]

Table For 1

Though Hk probably wont go back to it’s glory days, as long as HK keeps it’s function as China’s money “backdoor, there should be signifcant enough air travel in the future for cathay to survive when things pick up again.
I highly doubt the destination’s democracy has any serious implications to travellers, ie. all the people traveling to the middle east, china, north korea etc

[TimeToWhine]

Table For 1

I don’t doubt you. However, never underestimate how quick people tend to forget, especially when they are on the outside and not directly impacted. Travellers to HK won’t even notice.

Stallone

You’re probably right, perhaps even much smaller than that. However, someone will need to fill the void of a major increase in air travel to and from HK. Be it CX, other HK airlines or even just mainly foreign carriers. If it’s not CX that will need that many pilots, someone else will. The point being, globally, airline crew numbers will inevitably need to return to pre covid levels. Which airlines will be prepared with fully trained crew is another matter.

[HaveQuick]

One has to wonder is the GMA on a work visa?

[mngmt mole]

I am beginning to suspect that the grand plan is to (in the not too distant future) announce that Greater Bay Airlines has purchased the assets of the newly shrunken CX....and voila, the new "greater bay airlines" , aka....Cathay Pacific. Mainland chinese owned, most expats gone and the Swires put in their place once and for all. Time will tell...

[krismiler]

A very realistic scenario, back in 1988 CAAC Airlines was split into the big three, being Air China, China Southern and China Eastern. Each of them was headquartered in a different part of the country. Greater Bay would make the big four, and whilst it’s a bit close to China Southern in Guangzhou, there is probably enough air traffic in that region to support two major airlines.

All the profits stay within China, Beijing tightens its grip on HKG and one of the last relics of the colonial era is gone.

[Avinthenews]

and the name could easily be….

‘China Pacific’ and people will recall oh yes I flew China Pacific into Kai Tak many years ago.

[CCA]

TimeToWhine

While the argument is sound, I personally wouldn’t support the airline being the same size.

The 60-70 777 (tel:60-70 777) aircraft that was going to remain a similar size and get 21 777-9s on a one to one replacement will no doubt be a much smaller fleet now, with a likely reduction of 10-15 777-9s if the rumour is true the fleet could be in the 20-25 mark like the -400 fleet used to be. The Airbus (CX+KA) fleet size has reduced the A320NEOs have been delayed except for the ones that couldn’t. A350s will most like be a one for one replacement of A330s rather than expand the fleet.

CX has historically never placed huge aircraft orders it’s always been incremental so the fleet won’t return any time soon, it could be 10 years before the fleet is back to its former self if ever and the cadet course which is it’s early years brought 10 pilots a year can tick along with over 100 a year absorbing retirement’s and keeping the training machine running normally plus you will always have the option of DE who will be floating around. COS18 will be fine if they come for AHK and HK express they can come to CX.

The airline will mostly shrink till right sized. Then who knows, begin to build, or like others have suggested become ‘China Pacific’ or the like.

[Flex88]

Posterizing;

The “only” reason HK was Chinas “back door” ( front door in actual fact) was because of HK’s” rule of British Law + an INDEPENDENT of China judiciary and government !! China has now urinated on ALL those factors leaving HK as just another corrupted CCP controlled Chinese city. This, coupled with the “flavor” of HK being stripped away in favor of elite mega malls makes HK just another stupendously expensive puppet city reminiscent of Leningrad 🧐 I imagine EVERY corporate body in the entire communist enclave is searching for an alternate HQ. As for tourism, the CCP and the damage the China Virus has wreaked on the globe has cancelled that thought from every tourist on the planet. RIP !

[Oasis]

They're finally killing the goose with the golden egg?

[krismiler]

Back in the early 1990s, CX was still an attractive employer. The newly introduced “B” scale wasn’t that bad and the airline was still a good career option. The big question was of course 1997 and the handover.

In those days, China was much weaker and HKG was a valuable prize. The goose needed to keep on laying and was cut some slack. Now a quarter of a century later China is much stronger and more developed. HKG is of much less importance, foreign airlines carrying tourists and business men fly directly to mainland cities, Shanghai is on its way to becoming the world’s largest financial centre.

HKG is becoming just another Chinese province which won’t toe the party line, similar to Xinjiang, and will be treated in the same way.

[Pistolpete47]

Hong Kong still has one of the largest stock markets in the world outside of the US. Equal in size to shanghai and london. There is a large workforce of financialy literate, english speaking citizens. That doesn't get replaced easily. Politics doesn't really come in to people's business decisions or travel plans. Hk still has a part to play.

[Walkingthedog]

Flex88

Nope it’s because HKG is still one of the few places outside of the PRC where the yuan is traded.

[krismiler]

Pistolpete47

These people are very welcome in the countries that they are increasingly moving to, the UK realises what an asset they are and gives them BNO passports in the hope that they will come with their money and expertise. HKG is in decline and unfortunately so is CX. The airline will probably survive in a smaller form but will have to downsize similar to EY, becoming more of a regional airline with a few long haul routes. The EK model of a hub and spoke airline doing long haul connecting flights in very large aircraft with a focus on premium pax is broken for the foreseeable future. At least CX avoided buying the A380, but unlike EK and SQ, they lack the strong government backing needed for an airline with no domestic network to get through this crisis.

As is the case in most airlines, it will be the foreigners that bear the brunt of the layoffs. After the pandemic ends foreign pilots will probably still be needed, but it will be as expats on fixed term contracts rather than career employees expecting to stay until retirement. Likely similar to working in China before COVID; you were needed but not wanted, contracts weren't worth the paper they were printed on, any labour laws favoured the employer but the pay was good while it lasted.

[kahaha]

Rie

No free jobs, but Local Ex KA crew operated cx simulators, doing cx prof checks, flying cx SOP’s and being paid by cx. New ka joiners and local crew were all trained by cx and even had to pass the cx hr interviews.

Who else could possibly be better pre qualified?

[Rie]

I agree entirely. They deserve a chance at a position. But there is always going to be resentment like any airline. Who’s to say the sim ride will be a normal interview sim and the interview will be fairly conducted. Time will tell how they move forward with it all. There is still HK Air Cargo, UO and Air HK to place them. I can’t see the old boys being happy letting in many Dragon pilots and they are the ones that can skew the entry criteria.

[Walkingthedog]

Despite the fact that 30 odd aircraft and routes went to cx from ka along with 8 captains🙄

[Walkingthedog]

seriously cadets with no experience🙄

[doublelift]

Walkingthedog

Heard that those 8 captains havent flown any flight in a real aircraft under CX AOC. Plus, they are only on temporary contract for A320NEO training purposes.

[Walkingthedog]

One is GM IOC. That’s not very temporary.

[cabbages]

How the **** did that get past the board?
A new GM position in IOC at a time when CX's traffic levels are at their lowest for decades. Just how many Directors and GMs does it take to run this :mad:?

[mngmt mole]

Well, depends if you are trying to run it into the ground. In that case, you would want as many Swire managers as possible to maximize the effect. :)

[bacou]

doublelift

That temporary contract was another lie from your management, sorry to give you more bad news.
From a CX FCN, 3 have been given management positions, Deputy chief pilot, A320, Training manager and China Operations manager
1 has retired and I heard that 2 were transferred to the bigger bus.
Most of the 8 pilots must have flown at least to pick up the 4 aircraft that have joined your fleet..

[Stone Temple Pilot]

swh

Wow, just wow - and we used to work out of the same crew check-in facilities just over 6 months ago?

You sound like you have the solution there - almost like a CX manager, with a lot of qualified pilots on your list above, all of them having given sooooo many years of loyalty to the CX group.

- Of course the CX pilots will do a better job on the NEO, when they have flown a big shiny 777 to JFK - all that time in the bunk really build up your hours and experience.
- The "many" CX pilots made redundant in HKG, yes, it is tough to loose the job being on probation and all and with all that SO training of making bunks. Were they by the way actually not called back onto the 747 already?
- The cadets out of ADL have naturally contributed so much to the group already and will be well qualified to take the 30+ KA aircraft on the KA routes that they know so well from their extensive cross country training in sunny Oz. Good choice there, SWH.
- And oh yes, very fair idea to take the UO pilots who have been part of the CX group for all of 22 months or so and use them on the ex KA operation. After all, they have given a few months of their life to build up a healthy business for the "group" and there's only another 5 years before they become permanent ID holders in Hong Kong.

With regards to aircrafts and routes "taken" by KA as you claim - have a good look back towards 2007, when SYD, Seoul and North America was "better handled" by CX, freighters were taken by CX as "there is no money in cargo" and BKK, NRT, several daily PVG, PEK and TPE flights were conveniently handed over to CX.
Compare fleet size net growth of KA 2007 to 2019 with CX fleet size net growth and you will see virtually :mad: all expansion in KA...
All those 330s coming from CX were actually replacing old bangers going back to leasing companies while we all had to read on "The Hub" about the droves of shiny new 350s "we" were receiving.

Good luck with the NEO into Kunming at FL276, SWH. Expedite...

[stilton]

I lived in HK in the ‘70’s, I was a UK national then but did become a HK citizen

Of course this was many years before the handover. I’m curious to know the status today
of a person who became a citizen before 1997

Are those citizenships still in effect ?

[anxiao]

Not sure what you mean by "Citizen," to become a complete citizen you need to be of Chinese extraction and have Z or W on your ID card. You would then be entitled to one of the Hong Kong passports, but lets not go there...

Those who were born outside of Hong Kong and have permanent residence usually by living permanently for 7 years, have A or O on the card. Check the codes out on Wiki, and your own HK id card.

[kahaha]

The ka A320 captains were given temporary contracts, to cover the period up until the company could restructure the pilot group into a none seniority based , productivity driven salary. Without seniority.
Now , those captains can be freely appointed throughout the fleets, as there is, as far as I understand, no precedent set to restrict this ? They can be re appointed as fleet managers, captains on A350 or whatever floats the companies boat.

If I met one of these guys down a dark alley one day...

[Walkingthedog]

anxiao

The criteria for passports is far wider though. One does not have to be ethnically Chinese to whit J Slosar and many others.

[china123]

crikey, so much negativity! how about this to lift your spirits...
Emirates Eyes 70% Capacity Recovery By Winter :ok:

you can check this article out on the simple flying website. (haven't enough posts for a link yet) :(

[Oasis]

And that is because the UAE is now 100 percent vaccinated, they can open the borders.
I'm sure they'll start hiring soon again too!

[Shot Nancy]

UAE is not fully vaccinated.
QF like thinking by EK to fill the coffers?
2000 A380 pilots down to 200 so 70% capacity of what? 777 ops? 🙄 🤷‍♂️
CX has to keep culling to survive.

[ekw]

stilton

Before 1997 British Citizens had the "Right to Land" in Hong Kong. There was no procedure to apply for citizenship. After 1997 the concept of Permanent Residence was introduced. If you lived continuously in HK for a period of 7 years you could apply. Unless you were born in Hong Kong, you lose it again if you have not returned for more than two years. People born in Hong Kong of Chinese descent are entitled to Chinese citizenship. You can otherwise only get this citizenship by naturalisation and you must give up your other nationalities.

[CodyBlade]

Check your permanent HK ID does it have 3 asterisks? i.e ***

[VR-HFX]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/sandals_in_the_bin1_cb956f740a8e0b3b6e69b11eb93994cd4a2b5d77 .jpg
Sandals in the Bin some 10 years ago. Lucky to have seen the best and sadly the beginning of the worst.
Terribly sorry for all those younger folk who have had their careers destroyed. Stay strong. There is life after aviation.

[anxiao]

ekw, all good GEN well written, but is it not 3 years out of Hong Kong to lose PR? And I believe from others that it can be negotiated if you have good reason for being away, education being the most common waiver. A year of COVID might sway them if you need an extension.

[BuzzBox]

Correct; you lose PR if you’ve been continuously absent from HK for a period of three years or more. However, if you lose PR you still retain the right to land. It’s virtually the same thing except that you can be deported if you’re convicted of a crime that’s punishable by two years or more imprisonment, you can’t vote or stand for election, and a few other minor differences.

[krismiler]

Unfortunately, it's not inconceivable that CX could go out of business altogether and this could be what the government in Beijing wants. Dividing the pie up between the Big 3 wouldn't be too difficult and having Air China operating routes from Hong Kong to London and New York sends a big message. If EK or SQ went under it would be a massive loss of face, and present immediate and long term difficulties for the city states. Losing CX removes a relic of the colonial era and capacity could easily be replaced by mainland airlines, particularly given the current surplus and aircraft available from the CX fleet.

Hong Kong is better located as a transit hub than Shanghai or Beijing, has an award winning airport and the city is an attractive stopover option. Using the city as a virtual hub keeps costs down. Back in the 1990s the Middle East hub airlines were just starting, now they dominate transit traffic.

At one stage prior to COVID, China Southern was the cheapest option on the Kangaroo route. Chinese airlines are pretty acceptable these days, a shorter travelling time with a HKG stopover and a low fare would be serious competition.

[ekw]

anxiao

Yes, I stand corrected. Thanks.
BTW the three star marker is to indicate that you are entitled to Chinese Citizenship by virtue of being born in HK and partly of Chinese descent but the test comes when you try to actually apply for an SAR passport. Incidentally, it's a barrier to getting a Chinese tourist visa for the Mainland in Hong Kong. Once they see the three stars, they demand to see your Home Return Permit.

[VforVENDETTA]

The first of rejection emails are coming out. Has anyone heard of any approved VSS requests so far?

[MENELAUS]

Yes. Quite a few as it happens. Jumbo obv not the best fleet to apply from. Despite having taken a hell
of a caning over at least 18 months.

[Memorylapse]

What can I say? Buckle up boys - some nasty news soon. Good luck to all.

[Dragon Pacific]

I can see no point in keeping anyone under the current circumstances who has applied for VSS.

[Curry Lamb]

I can.

The VSS was merely a charade to satisfy the 2 govt officials on the board, HK public etc in pretending to be a “responsible, caring, sharing company”.
A circus act.

Their real intension is to get rid of all non PR/non citizen expats - as per Beijing’s memo to Augustus, passed onto Debs.

Good luck to all, this is the way :}

[cabbages]

Can't fault your logic Curry. (Apart from the fact that those already refused VSS include non PR/non citizen expats)

[Curry Lamb]

Yes please thank you. As I said, refuse VSS only to make them redundant anyway when OPEN SEASON starts on 1 June.

Why pay 6 months when you can get away with 3.

These bean counters with their MBA and fancy qualifications are way too smart for any pilot, save a few clever ones who took the bait last year during round 1 :ok:

[CodyBlade]

Brutal but it's survival mode.

[kahaha]

When I was at HSBC in Cathay City, just after the millennium, there was a cx Captain enquiring about something to do with his salary and wether it was in his account .
The amount that I overheard was $375000 . That was just for one month . I was gobsmacked . What a :mad: Her was me earning a measly 100k a month.

When he left the bank, I thought about following him and sorting him out . However I turned the other cheek, and ran off to my tung Chung hell hole .

[Flex88]

Fact of life, no matter where you go, there's always someone whining about they want what someone else has "without" putting in the time or effort as everyone else has done.. Go cry to your mommy then go back down to her basement !!

[Farman Biplane]

.....measly 100k a month.....tell’im he’s dreamin.....

[Bangaluru]

What’s wrong with earning $375K?

[LLLQNH]

Curry Lamb

???? Have we all missed something, why is it open Season June 1st?

[VforVENDETTA]

What planet do you live on? The writing has been on the wall for some time.

[anxiao]

Banga, plus one from me. I know of several professions in HK who make that kind of money after 25 years in the business.

I sense a green eye from those who have not yet done the hard yards.

[LLLQNH]

VforVENDETTA

yup well aware of what's going on thanks, just curious why June 1st? From recent events FRA for example it seems management don't advertise when in advance they will do something. So again I ask why June 1st? If you have inside knowledge then please speak up!

[mngmt mole]

Envy and resentment of others. Always a guaranteed pathway to mediocrity and failure...

[VforVENDETTA]

LLLQNH

Nothing special about june 1st, July 1st etc or something in between. But the writing has been on the wall about no visa renewals for months now. Anyone still in denial must get their head checked. And please don't say what the company or hk government said etc.... Cathay and hk government are known best and foremost for lying about everything for time immemorial.