Quarantine Hypocrisy

[Troo believer]

Given that this is a pilot forum, I’d like to open a thread dedicated to the confusing, illogical and hypocritical nature of the legislation and rules governing quarantine for international pilots domiciled in Australia.

At present there is a dog’s breakfast of rules determining what quarantine requirements a returning crew must complete prior to being allowed out into the wider community depending on which state you preside in.

It’s generally accepted that upon return to Australia, you may complete either 14 days of home quarantine, if you can meet the distancing rules, or otherwise 14 days in a hotel or until your next duty. You have to complete a pcr COVID test every 7 days and on day 10 prior to being released on day 14. Obviously testing negative.

At the moment Queensland Health has determined that crew landing back in Darwin after completion of an international repatriation sector are to quarantine at HWS for 14 days prior to operating an empty aircraft back to Brisbane. No other state requires this. Crew from other states are permitted to home quarantine instead. Remember that the crew are not gallivanting around overseas having a fun time getting boozed up in quant English pubs or a German Beer garden. No, they remain confined to their hotel room for the whole duration of their stay. Masks and PPE is worn to and from the aircraft with minimal contact afforded between themselves and the general public. A significant amount of crew are now fully vaccinated which adds to the illogical position of the authorities in the police state of Australia. I’m not across what happens in WA but could only imagine.

Added to this with the advent of the Tasman bubble throws further fuel on the flames of stupidity. Air New Zealand crew whom operate to a high risk area ,which is currently the USA, are upon return, required to quarantine in a designated hotel for 2 days only and with a negative pcr test are sent on their merry way to mingle and pollute the general public whom could be Aussies having a grand old time in NZ. My God this has to stop immediately. Heaven forbid that the virus could be bought back into Oz via Kiwi crew whom have not quarantined to OZ standards. WTF is going on? Half their luck for the ANZ crew.

The toll the draconian, punitive quarantine policies of Australia are damming and a joke. I’ve lost faith with this country. Perhaps it’s our convict roots but is this heavy handed approach necessary. Pilots are trying to earn a living but listening to the lucky few that are stood up for one month in four, it’s a poisoned chalice. For the poor buggers in continual quarantine for months on end, it’s taking its toll. It sucks the life out of you.

Could someone way smarter than myself point me to the science of such nonsense. I wonder if Anna or McClown are aware of this nefarious loophole that’s apparent with our Kiwi cousin bros. All could be lost unless we shut the borders forthwith. And why is it that the guards at Howard Springs are armed? What the hell have we allowed our country to become?

For crew from other countries we’d like to hear what your governments require for quarantine purposes.
May the discussion continue. And if you’re not a pilot or a flight attendant, we don’t need your shrill chicken little hyperbole.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

The covid 19 industry is now pretty much fully fledged in Australia.

No way thats going to change any time soon. This event is the bureaucrats olympics!

The harder everything is made, the more relevent these types become.

Meanwhile, Diggers get locked out of ANZAC DAY services while 80000 attend a football game. Thats a national disgrace of the highest order.

The common thread?. As always. Money.

MCD.

[SixDemonBag]

800,000 at a football game?! Must have been a big stadium.

...and yes. Quarantine sucks. Good luck trying to instigate change. We’ve been trying for months

[Fuel-Off]

Or alternatively, HQ workers and COVID ward staff don't need to isolate after their shifts and free to go about their homes and community as they see fit. Flight Crews on the other hand are treated like diseased animals and locked up. That is where the hypocrisy lies.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Plastic787]

Try the United Kingdom for nonsensical quarantine rules. Enter the UK from a red or amber area and undergo quarantine but, as you are flightcrew, you are allowed to leave quarantine to go to work. Then you can fly back to the very place you’ve just had to quarantine from but upon your return - because you are now entering as crew - you have now been cleansed of potential COVID and the slate is wiped clean, no further quarantine period. And no I am not making this up.

[DUXNUTZ]

Rediculous. Where’s the unions.?

[Break Right]

Or alternatively, HQ workers and COVID ward staff don't need to isolate after their shifts and free to go about their homes and community as they see fit. Flight Crews on the other hand are treated like diseased animals and locked up. That is where the hypocrisy lies.

Fuel-Off :ok:
This is where the joke belongs. Quarantine staff from all around Australia can roam free after mixing with potential COVID cases. Granted they are PPEd up, just like we are when on duty overseas.
This bureaucratic Olympics moment is spot on. They won’t lose face over this. Science and stats don’t matter to these people, it’s all about building their empires and protecting their own. They have no skin in this game, it doesn’t affect them unless it starts hurting their bottom dollar.

[ozbiggles]

So you are having a crack at NZ for being to lax whilst having a go at Aus for being too strict?

One word...India

[Radgirl]

Troo Believer you asked fro some science:

We have a range of vaccines and some are very questionable but the two mRNA vaccines - Pfizer and Moderna - seem not only to stop serious disease but also to provide sterility ie stop the individual passing on illness by reducing the viral load in the nose. The data is coming out day by day but in healthcare I feel safe based on the science although like you I am told what to do by politicians who seem to ignore the science.

In the UK we are interested in how Australia and NZ will ever open up and save their economies given recent statements by your politicians and the slow rate of vaccination.

PM me and I will find some data for you - IMHO if aircrew are vaccinated with 2 doses of mRNA and have 2 negative PCR tests then they are safe. We need 2 tests not one due to false negatives but as long as they are done by a trained healthcare worker and not self administered they could be done an hour apart. The PCR just checks you arent contaminated. If you want to be really pedantic you could insist on a shower, change of clothes and leaving luggage airside for 72 hours but there was a non peer reviewed paper that found only 1 in 100 cases arose from touching contaminated surfaces, the rest being due to aerosol transmission.

[Troo believer]

So you are having a crack at NZ for being to lax whilst having a go at Aus for being too strict?

One word...India
Far from it. What NZ does is totally practical. Just pointing out the glaring stupidity of Australia’s rules. We stay in the same hotel in LAX. What’s the difference?

[Paragraph377]

The fact that there are so many inconsistencies, from country to country and from state to state proves the Governments have no idea. They just slashed passenger numbers returning from India to 30%. What quantifiable data did they use to come up with 30%? Why not 22% or 71%? Because these idiots are making it up as they go. Some research has shown masks don’t work. Some Vaccines are only 30% effective due to new and evolving strains. Did they pull the trigger on vaccines to quickly? Why are COVID numbers escalating worldwide when vaccines have been handed out for at least a month or more?

I am not a conspiracy theorist nor am I against vaccinations. But the absolute lack of consistency worldwide simply proves that they do not know what they are doing, otherwise it would be the same action everywhere.

Seriously, governments couldn't even run a raffle, so how could people possibly trust and put faith in them with mitigating COVID? All they have done is fail to stem the COVID spread and killed the worlds economy. How’s that working for everyone??

[Angle of Attack]

Troo Believer,
I sympathise with you as your obviously international, but the whole system is just an unmitigated disaster even for a domestic pilot like me.
Ive put up with 1 year of this crap state by state disaster system that changes daily, gone through seven 2 week quarantine directions, now up to 36 COVID tests and ridiculous and completely inept rules that are all based on land based people, not pilots or cabin crew going through most States weekly. The best I had was arriving into SA after doing simulator in Melbourne during the height of their lockdown last year. SA police asked, have you had a COVID test in the last 7 days? , Me , yeah 6 days ago in QLD before I went to VIC for simulator. SA police officer, right! Your good to go! Lol...The whole thing is a joke and I can only imagine the shambles that would involve international flights, it would be double layered crap.

[Angle of Attack]

Paragraph, I think you’ll find cOVID numbers escalating worldwide are due to the vaccination rates of particular countries, and when India gets involved, it’s population is so huge it skews the worldwide figures...

Sorry edited as wasn’t clear, what I meant to say that you will find the infection rates are dramatically falling in the higher vaccinated countries. India just skews the worldwide result with its massive population and inadequate healthcare system.

[Troo believer]

Thanks Radgirl but I’ve read a ****load of science on the subject. It was a rhetorical question. There is no science. We know that. The Tasman bubble illustrates that beautifully. 14 days compared with 2 days quarantine. Dutton should revoke the bubble immediately and fine anyone having fun in NZ. After all that is the Australian way.
On the subject of ATC being moved to Melbourne. I’ve got a great idea. Outsource it to the FAA? Double the traffic with half the radio calls. End of rant.

[Car RAMROD]

Or alternatively, HQ workers and COVID ward staff don't need to isolate after their shifts and free to go about their homes and community as they see fit. Flight Crews on the other hand are treated like diseased animals and locked up. That is where the hypocrisy lies.

Fuel-Off :ok:

Anyone care to take a guess as to what was behind the two lockdowns BNE had?

I’ll give you all a hint. It wasn’t flight crew!

[cattletruck]

A big part of this problem is the senior public servants running the health industry and its responses to the pandemic have been shown to be quite wanting. They are so used to just maintaining the status quo and getting the tax payer to fund it. When something comes out of left centre field they... well... try to ignore it hoping it will go away and be forgotten about.

The health system could do with a huge upheaval. The levels of hypocrisy, inconsistent measures, unnecessary risks, and poor handling of new challenges will just continue to plop along like a dead body rolling downhill.

[ozbiggles]

Anyone want to have a guess at the leading suspect for the Northern beaches was...

It seems some people just don’t want to see. Australia and NZ don’t have a population dying from a hundred different things because there is no oxygen left for their hospitals or running out of places to put the dead.

Yeah it’s sucks, it’s a one in a hundred year pandemic, deal with it and be thankful you are in a country that has done the hard yards were you don’t have to roll a 20kg O2 tank down the street in a futile bid to keep your parents alive.

I got retrenched because of I t after 30 years of flying. Adapt and overcome

[Troo believer]

A US based crew member apparently.
Sorry to hear of your retrenchment. The fact remains however that there are massive inconsistencies across the nation and NZ that need addressing. None of it passes the pub test. How does our governments refute this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/25/world/europe/american-travel-to-europe.html

[Keg]

Anyone want to have a guess at the leading suspect for the Northern beaches was...


If you’re suggesting it was Aussie flight crew you’d be wrong.

If you’re suggesting it was flight crew from another nation you may be closer to the mark.

[compressor stall]

Troo Believer - Can I guess that you have only just returned to flying?

I was lucky enough to have still been operating continuously through the last 14 months, domestically and internationally. This hypocrisy and unthought out state and federal quarantine idiocy hasn't just started..... I could bore you for hours with COVID tales from the last 14 months, Clamping down on us in some areas and other you could fit the QE2 inside with room to spare.

I kept relatively quiet at the time (and still do) as I felt some survivor guilt and I'm sure that many of you would have rather put up what we were enduring than been on job keeper...

[Troo believer]

No incorrect. Lucky for you. Whatever your circumstances though it doesn’t make it right when there are significant inconsistencies. If you’re happy with the status quo so be it. I trust Alan rang you to thank you for your service.

[compressor stall]

Never said it did make it right and never said I was happy with it. But complaining on Pprune of my plight wasn't going to help last year.

I went other ways - twice I even got as far as the Government solicitors who draft the legislation to point out the omissions that were landing us in Q having done less than things that would exempt you from Q. It took 3 months in one case but the new directions covered it.

For most of last year I was keeping a matrix to stay abreast of all state/territory ever changing Directions and we regularly fired it back to the Police and health departments when they interpreted things on a whim towards our crews against their own advice.

Alan? Nice try but, no.

[donpizmeov]

No incorrect. Lucky for you. Whatever your circumstances though it doesn’t make it right when there are significant inconsistencies. If you’re happy with the status quo so be it. I trust Alan rang you to thank you for your service.

I think compressor stall works in even colder climates than Alan's office. So not QF.

Fortress Australia has screwed the few to protect the many. It's economy is doing well, unemployment is going ok. And that's where the big picture stops. In comparison to life in other parts of the world it is still the lucky country. And I say that as an Ozzie locked on the outside.

Unfortunately the working life of the international pilot (and domestic with the way states shut down) is of no consequence. If qf don't do the flying, someone from outside will The public and travelers don't care. I don't endorse this, but this where Australia is at.

There is lots of real world data now supporting the use of vaccines. And until the major population of the world have been jabbed, there won't be change. And that is taking a long time to achieve.

But, on our network, where quarentine is no longer an issue, our aircraft are full. So I see this as evidence as a strong rebound in travel when things finally open up.

I only hope that those still waiting to be recalled can wait it out.

And troo believer I agree with everything you say about the inconsistent way it's all being managed. But those making the decisions weren't the ones we saw do well in class at school.

[swh]

All I will say, what is happening in Oz is by far not the worst out there.

Some countries want you to test and quarantine for departing and landing at the same airport, like a 2hr air test. Literally pulling up at the same stand you departed from.

Don’t see a lot of science in this, probably been tested over 100 times, fully vaccinated however I’m considered more of a threat than
the people at immigration that never get tested however in contact with unknown passengers every day.

[Climb150]

Some quality journalism suggests CoVID can "creep" from one hotel room to another? By creep do they men shoddy adherence to procedures in quarantine hotels?

[aviation_enthus]

Troo believer, for once I agree with you!!

Australia has truly lost its way with the various restrictions in place for quarantine. I can’t comment on the rules for Oz based flight crew, but I can certainly tell you that what arriving crew experience is also following the same inane path.

I’ll add my experience though from the last 12 months in the UAE.

We started with 14 day home quarantine after every flight or until your next duty. For those is us that continued flying, that meant a continuous quarantine period that lasted around 3 months until the rules changed. During this time if you were unlucky enough to be on a flight with a confirmed case, you were removed from duty for 14 days and also required to take a PCR test at the end. We were also given a PCR test at the end of every duty.

Approximately 3 months in the rules changed and the PCR test on arrival was dropped. The home quarantine requirement was also removed. For the “confirmed case on board”, we still had to isolate for 14 days, however the PCR test at the end was removed.

Sometime around October the “confirmed case on board” rules changed again. Now we were notified but only required to monitor for symptoms.

Throughout this time restrictions on layovers have been in place. Most destinations we are not allowed to leave the hotel. However in your case, if you believe 100% of QF/ANZ crew follow this on every layover, I have a bridge to sell you..... If restrictive rules exist, I guarantee you someone isn’t following them.

We also had requirements for PPE since March last year, including on layovers.

To be honest, I’ve been quite happy with the progression of the various rules here. Things have changed regularly but appear to be based on new information or actual available data. Unlike some of the pedantic BS in Australia. Plus this country is actually able to figure out how to administer a vaccine, so almost all crew are vaccinated (plus a significant portion of society and airline families).

Just to add, the rule changes at the beginning of 2021 for international crew on layovers, are another example of what you speak about. Please tell me what benefit there is in testing crew on a 24 hour layover??? Especially when the results can take 24-48 hours to come back. There has been flight crew ON THE AIRCRAFT, about to board passengers, that then receive a positive result. The threat is almost 99% guaranteed to be asymptomatic and is ABOUT TO LEAVE AUSTRALIA!!! But the rules require all the crew to leave the aircraft and undergo 14 days quarantine in Australia.

All I can really say is HAHAHAHA and good luck. And I’m Australian!!

[Koizi]

I believe the overriding problem in Australia is the very thing "we" are most proud of - our Elimination Strategy. This will be our downfall going forward.

Politicians with the aid of the media have hammered the concept of zeros, double zeros etc so hard into our skulls that even seeing the number "1" sends citizens rushing to the shops for toilet paper, fears of city wide lockdowns and 10-20k ppl rushing to be COVID swabbed.
This concept of absolute zero risk is unsustainable and has moved the country head first into a brick wall.

Who wants to be the one to relax any rules in this environment?

Using COVID logic, Easter Weekend should be cancelled. If it had been cancelled, we would have saved 20 lives.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Those wondering why differences exist between Australian and NZ rules - just look at the media ownership in NZ (or specifically lack of ownership by Newscorpse). What possible incentive would any (particularly labour) state government have to apply any judgement to practicality of risk based outcomes on crew quarantine (manageble when you consider recent WA and NSW Northern Beaches) when any perceived lack of absolute control will result in a media campaign akin to what Victoria saw last year (totally unmanaged - and from the same organisation that actively promotes the "let it rip" brigade)?

[Car RAMROD]

I’m not so concerned or wound up about myself being isolated.
What gets to me, as per the thread title, is the hypocrisy.

In short, there are arguably people who are at an equal or greater risk of catching/spreading it than compared to us flight crew, and they are not required to isolate yet we are.
Now if you isolated those people I’d complain less.

I’m not complaining about the hypocrisy in an attempt to get out of quarantine; but if they made it fair and let us not quarantine (like the equally or higher risk staff) then I wouldn’t say no.

[Aluminium Mallard]

Some quality journalism suggests CoVID can "creep" from one hotel room to another? By creep do they men shoddy adherence to procedures in quarantine hotels?
Par for the course for quality journalism some would say!.... before a mid life career change I worked in commercial airconditioning, including some hotels and hospitals. To make them as energy efficient as possible (which has been a major influence in he past 20 years) typically just the rooms themselves are airconditioned with the absolute least amount of fresh air introduced via an central outside air unit. The introduced air returns and relieves down the corridors (which are not air conditioned at all).

It's possibly the worst design for preventing the spread of a respiratory virus. The virus load will leak down the hallways continuously and also build up in the room so when the door to the corridor is opened sent a big parcel of infected air down the common areas. It's surprising we haven't had more outbreaks.

A better setup would be to have a purpose built facility (or two) to safely process international arrivals, big enough to handle as many people that want to come here. Plenty of flying for both international and domestic.

The federal government really needs to show some leadership... the state by state approach will only lead to a dogs breakfast.

[josephfeatherweight]

I believe the overriding problem in Australia is the very thing "we" are most proud of - our Elimination Strategy. This will be our downfall going forward.
Koizi is absolutely correct. The majority of the voting public (who, funnily enough, are not international aircrew) will not accept anything other than ZERO cases.
You can't really blame them, it is something that people can be proud of. It just makes life difficult for those of us (the minority) that need to travel overseas as part of our work.
We've "done so well" that we've made a rod for our own backs...

[Dannyboy39]

Par for the course for quality journalism some would say!.... before a mid life career change I worked in commercial airconditioning, including some hotels and hospitals. To make them as energy efficient as possible (which has been a major influence in he past 20 years) typically just the rooms themselves are airconditioned with the absolute least amount of fresh air introduced via an central outside air unit. The introduced air returns and relieves down the corridors (which are not air conditioned at all).

It's possibly the worst design for preventing the spread of a respiratory virus. The virus load will leak down the hallways continuously and also build up in the room so when the door to the corridor is opened sent a big parcel of infected air down the common areas. It's surprising we haven't had more outbreaks.

A better setup would be to have a purpose built facility (or two) to safely process international arrivals, big enough to handle as many people that want to come here. Plenty of flying for both international and domestic.

The federal government really needs to show some leadership... the state by state approach will only lead to a dogs breakfast.
Are you seriously suggesting sending everyone to a facility like Nauru? Even more so where in a few months time most of the western world will have reached herd immunity. That policy is inhumane in itself. Literally no other country is doing this. All for the sake of 1 case that slipped through the net. This Covid jingoism really needs to stop to be honest.

[kitchen bench]

Are you seriously suggesting sending everyone to a facility like Nauru?

Where did you get that from?

He’s talking about Australia.

to have a purpose built facility (or two) to safely process international arrivals, big enough to handle as many people that want to come here.

[Keg]

NSW alone would require a facility that can house 6,000 people given the NSW arrival cap of 3,00 a week. Add workers and you’re talking a facility of 7,500-8,500 people in a Covid safe way. With 410 leaving each day and 410 arriving each day that’s a very, very significant logistical issue to sort out for one facility.

[Dannyboy39]

Where did you get that from?

He’s talking about Australia.
I said like Nauru - where people are held like second class citizens. If Aus decided to hold people in these desert camps, it would massively hurt it’s international standing.

[WingNut60]

I said like Nauru - where people are held like second class citizens. If Aus decided to hold people in these desert camps, it would massively hurt it’s international standing.
You're overlooking the FACT that a fair proportion of the returnees have spent their time overseas living in quarters that would make a desert quarantine camp look like a Kempinski penthouse.
For many of them, two weeks in a Mercure quarantine lockup will be the first and only time in their lives that they spend time in a star rated hotel.

It's 2 weeks FFS. Not a life sentence.

In addition to which, I doubt that our "international standing" would be hurt by one iota, let alone massively.

[sagesau]

The problem with rules is too many people forget the intent while flat out trying to find an exemption because they are special.

[halfmoon]

Quarantine is here and it's here to stay. It's sad the government hasn't even considered reducing hotel Quarantine to 7 days and possibly doing the remainder 7 days at home. Look at the stat's, 95% of all positive cases test positive in the first 7 days after exposure. The few that get through the cracks will be under home isolation.
There needs to be a path to open borders eventually.

[kitchen bench]

where people are held like second class citizens

So, you've been to Nauru and that's a first hand observation? Or are you repeating the drivel that comes out of the mouths of some do-gooders?
At least the people that arrive in the country to go to the quarantine facilities will have done so legally. On the other hand ..............


in a few months time most of the western world will have reached herd immunity.

If you believe that then I imagine you believe pigs can fly too.

in these desert camps

And finally, just so you've got the facts, the Victorian State Government announced today that they'll build a dedicated quarantine facility not 40 kms from Melbourne. Now, even by the wildest of imaginations, that's not the desert.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-29/victoria-identfies-melbourne-site-for-quarantine-facility/100103308

[Troo believer]

From across the Tasman for aircrew quarantine rules in New Zealand. Have a read of this compared with Australian crew requirements. Correct me if I’m wrong but do Air New Zealand crew have to quarantine at all if they fly to Singapore or Hong Kong and back to NZ? It appears not but please enlighten me. For flights to LA or San Fran 2 days and a negative test. Not 14. Can anybody else see this as a major flaw in the bubble? Perhaps Aussies are just more diseased than our Kiwi bros.
https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/201224_requirements_nz_based_air_crew_final_interim.pdf

[ScepticalOptomist]

From across the Tasman for aircrew quarantine rules in New Zealand. Have a read of this compared with Australian crew requirements. Correct me if I’m wrong but do Air New Zealand crew have to quarantine at all if they fly to Singapore or Hong Kong and back to NZ? It appears not but please enlighten me. For flights to LA or San Fran 2 days and a negative test. Not 14. Can anybody else see this as a major flaw in the bubble? Perhaps Aussies are just more diseased than our Kiwi bros.
https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/201224_requirements_nz_based_air_crew_final_interim.pdf

Not a flaw, but some common bloody sense!

They get tested, and trust their tracing system. We just run and hide and shutdown at the first sign of a sniffle.

[Dannyboy39]

So, you've been to Nauru and that's a first hand observation? Or are you repeating the drivel that comes out of the mouths of some do-gooders?
At least the people that arrive in the country to go to the quarantine facilities will have done so legally. On the other hand ..............




If you believe that then I imagine you believe pigs can fly too.



And finally, just so you've got the facts, the Victorian State Government announced today that they'll build a dedicated quarantine facility not 40 kms from Melbourne. Now, even by the wildest of imaginations, that's not the desert.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-29/victoria-identfies-melbourne-site-for-quarantine-facility/100103308
Ok to clarify - the USA and most of Europe will hit herd immunity, and probably the Middle East will hit it in the next few months. 70% of the UK now has Covid antibodies as of today.

[kitchen bench]

Ok to clarify - the USA and most of Europe will hit herd immunity,

Well, that's cleared up that inconsistency.

And your responses to "Nauru" or "desert camps" claims are not evident. How convenient.

[Dannyboy39]

Well, that's cleared up that inconsistency.

And your responses to "Nauru" or "desert camps" claims are not evident. How convenient.
And I guess pigs are indeed flying. I have worked with the airline there... you know the one that is subsidised by Aus taxpayers? But don’t let it stop your whataboutary. The point I’m making is that it is completely inhumane to be holding people in these massive offshore or remote hubs who are likely to be vaccinated or completely healthy. All because of 1 case that slipped out. The world needs to move on where it can.

[witwiw]

the one that is subsidised by Aus taxpayers

WRONG. There is no Australian Govt. subsidy - none, and never has been!! If anything, the airline got assistance from Taiwan in the past but not from Australia.

They certainly do some charter work for one or two government departments but that’s as a result of a competitive process. Sky Traders is another company that does similar work for the government and benefits from that same process.

Where do you get your information from?

[Car RAMROD]

With the increase in hotel quarantine case numbers , and now the positive test result of a guard in Perth, will we see any isolation of the staff that work in these environments (other than when the individual tests positive)?

I bet no, we won’t.

I would put money in there being another “outbreak” (to use some media sensationalism) in more than just Perth, and subsequently there being more lockdowns.


quote from ABC news article today:
The cases stem from a security guard in his 20s who was infected with the virus while working at the Pan Pacific Hotel, Mr McGowan said.

The man worked on the same floor as two other positive cases staying in hotel quarantine, he said.

He had been out in Perth's inner-northern suburbs for days before testing positive for COVID-19.

Two of the man’s housemates had since tested positive for the virus.

They have all been moved in hotel quarantine.




Just to recap:

work with covid positive people, allowed out in the community, spread it to others.

fly an aeroplane, isolate in your room at the destination, fly home to Australia, vaccinated= 14 day quarantine.

That makes sense.

[cloudsurfng]

Perhaps it’s time the rest of Australia returned the finger to WA like they did previously.

[kitchen bench]

to be holding people in these massive offshore or remote hubs …….

Oh dear, there you go again Dannyboy. Howard Springs (have you heard of that?) and Mickleham are neither remote nor offshore. The furthest most one is less than 40 km from a major mainland Australian city therefore not remote. When I last looked, both were firmly implanted on the Australian mainland therefore not offshore.

Given that Howard Springs has multiple recently returned people returning positive Covid results would indicate quarantine is a necessary element of control.

“ ……. likely to be vaccinated or completely healthy

but not necessarily either.



I concur – where DO you get your information from??????

[blubak]

Oh dear, there you go again Dannyboy. Howard Springs (have you heard of that?) and Mickleham are neither remote nor offshore. The furthest most one is less than 40 km from a major mainland Australian city therefore not remote. When I last looked, both were firmly implanted on the Australian mainland therefore not offshore.

Given that Howard Springs has multiple recently returned people returning positive Covid results would indicate quarantine is a necessary element of control.



but not necessarily either.



I concur – where DO you get your information from??????
We all wish quarantine wasnt neccessary & some dont believe it is & they are entitled to that view 100%.
What i would like to know is if the borders get thrown open & everybody who wants to can come & go freely & covid spreads like it has in other countries what do we do then?
Do we ignore the fact it is here,that is definitely an option as some dont believe it exists or causes illness/death.
For the pilots & many others who want their jobs back( they are not being selfish wishing for that) i just wonder how long those jobs will be there if covid cases are hundreds or thousands per day.
Do we want government control of the situation or should they just treat it like a bad flu.

[Troo believer]

We all wish quarantine wasnt neccessary & some dont believe it is & they are entitled to that view 100%.
What i would like to know is if the borders get thrown open & everybody who wants to can come & go freely & covid spreads like it has in other countries what do we do then?
Do we ignore the fact it is here,that is definitely an option as some dont believe it exists or causes illness/death.
For the pilots & many others who want their jobs back( they are not being selfish wishing for that) i just wonder how long those jobs will be there if covid cases are hundreds or thousands per day.
Do we want government control of the situation or should they just treat it like a bad flu.

Well you tell us. Do you understand that eradication isn’t possible unless we isolate forever. The end game has always been a vaccination, herd immunity and returning to some semblance of normality. How many people were infected by the flu pre COVID? Was it even mentioned in the media or government? No hardly at all. Do you know someone whom has had COVID? Have you had COVID? What was it like? Of course now that we have vaccines of which all 6 prevent death or severe illness, COVID will become just another human illness that we have to deal with.
Yes for most it’s like a flu. Welcome to life. It’s a health hazard.

[havick]

We all wish quarantine wasnt neccessary & some dont believe it is & they are entitled to that view 100%.
What i would like to know is if the borders get thrown open & everybody who wants to can come & go freely & covid spreads like it has in other countries what do we do then?
Do we ignore the fact it is here,that is definitely an option as some dont believe it exists or causes illness/death.
For the pilots & many others who want their jobs back( they are not being selfish wishing for that) i just wonder how long those jobs will be there if covid cases are hundreds or thousands per day.
Do we want government control of the situation or should they just treat it like a bad flu.

I hear North Korea is doing quite well with their quarantine measures.

[blubak]

Well you tell us. Do you understand that eradication isn’t possible unless we isolate forever. The end game has always been a vaccination, herd immunity and returning to some semblance of normality. How many people were infected by the flu pre COVID? Was it even mentioned in the media or government? No hardly at all. Do you know someone whom has had COVID? Have you had COVID? What was it like? Of course now that we have vaccines of which all 6 prevent death or severe illness, COVID will become just another human illness that we have to deal with.
Yes for most it’s like a flu. Welcome to life. It’s a health hazard.
If i was able to tell you,do u think i would be asking.
Ur right,flu doesnt get mentioned in the media,nor do lots of other diseases that kill many people & for what its worth i have had personal experience of that happening to a family member.
If you want to go on the defensive when someone asks a question well that is of course your right but why not consider that maybe everybody is not as clever as you make yourself out to be & who knows you may be the cleverest person in the world.

[Troo believer]

This article is bang on correct.
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/asia/the-world-is-watching-and-it-is-wondering-what-this-draconian-decision-says-about-australia-s-character-20210503-p57okq.html

from the article
“For the record, Payne has been given a vaccine, is flying to London on a private jet and won’t quarantine in a hotel upon her return to Australia.”

WTF.

[compressor stall]

Misleading sentence for journalistic effect and it worked on you.

This would be no surprise if you are familiar with the various state / territory regulations. There are - and have always been - exemptions for mandatory hotel Q for various Commonwealth officials (amongst others). Some states, however, have recently started to obfuscate this and lump it into the "minister may grant an exemption" subclause.

I guarantee you that Payne will not be wandering the streets of Canberra or Perth upon her return. She will likely be isolating alone in an apartment or other location for the 14 days - a location that will allow her to continue her function as a commonwealth official - which is what we pay her to do. I don't have an issue with that. Singers and actors, however......

edit - And also interesting choice of words of "private jet". Conjures up all sorts of emotions - particularly those of envy. In fact the RAAF 7x just landed in Rome. I assume she's on it.

[ozbiggles]

Any citizen who is a resident of the ACT can apply to home quarantine in the ACT. Have been able to do so since this began. Calm the farm.

[Troo believer]

Any citizen who is a resident of the ACT can apply to home quarantine in the ACT. Have been able to do so since this began. Calm the farm.
The private jet is what I was questioning. Could have used a 787 direct from Perth or Darwin. Much faster and logistically simpler.

[On eyre]

The private jet is what I was questioning. Could have used a 787 direct from Perth or Darwin. Much faster and logistically simpler.

Which airline is currently running a 787 direct from Perth or Darwin to Europe ? 😳 None that I’m aware of but stand to be corrected.

[compressor stall]

A56-003 has left LIRA and is right now off the coast of Brighton heading towards Southhampton. ASY304.

The private jet is what I was questioning. Could have used a 787 direct from Perth or Darwin. Much faster and logistically simpler.
Are you suggesting that our foreign minister and entourage shouldn't be flying around in a RAAF biz jet?

[rexxxxxy]

A56-003 has left LIRA and is right now off the coast of Brighton heading towards Southhampton. ASY304.

This is the third time the Falcon's have been overseas in the past month

First was Trade (https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/tehan-claims-breakthrough-on-australia-uk-trade-deal-20210424-p57m0s) Minister Trip to Europe - ASY301 (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASY301)
Second was Foreign Minister Trip to NZ (https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/visit-new-zealand-0) - ASY302 (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASY302)
And now ASY304 (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASY304) - off to London, Geneva and then heading to the USA (https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/visit-united-kingdom-switzerland-and-united-states).

A 787 (or KC30) makes no sense with such a small travelling party.

[Climb150]

This is the third time the Falcon's have been overseas in the past month

First was Trade (https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/tehan-claims-breakthrough-on-australia-uk-trade-deal-20210424-p57m0s) Minister Trip to Europe - ASY301 (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASY301)
Second was Foreign Minister Trip to NZ (https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/visit-new-zealand-0) - ASY302 (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASY302)
And now ASY304 (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASY304) - off to London, Geneva and then heading to the USA (https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/marise-payne/media-release/visit-united-kingdom-switzerland-and-united-states).

A 787 (or KC30) makes no sense with such a small travelling party.

Surely these top level ministers are vaccinated so can travel on scheduled flights to EU and beyond?

[havick]

This is the third time the Falcon's have been overseas in the past month


lol, why else would the government purchase an aircraft with that sort of range?

[layman]

Climb150

It seems RPT flights can be a bit a lottery

Only a sample size of 2 Australian diplomatic staff but 1 was on a wait list to fly back to Australia - rung in the early morning, flew later in the morning. 2 weeks in quarantine (finished Netflix!)

Another has been waiting to return for two weeks - had their 2nd flight cancelled on Monday.

[Troo believer]

The government could have used a Qantas 787. I’m sure Alan would have given them a good deal. You know quid pro quo. The crew are all vaccinated and so is the minister. Could have combined it with a repat flight on return via Darwin. Business class is off limits to returning passengers. Just a thought but there is certainly no security issue with it since many heads of state have travelled on Qantas flights in the past. Prime ministers, The Pope, The Queen. Standard run of the mill dignitaries.

[rexxxxxy]

lol, why else would the government purchase an aircraft with that sort of range?
It's more a comment that they haven't been overseas for most of 2020 with the only real exception being the Corman round the world.
So international VVIP flights have resumed.

[Koizi]

My most current gripe with HQ is the designation of your arrival day as "day zero" and the academic decision that you will be released at 23:59 on day 14.

This leads to different crews isolating for different lengths of time.
So a pilot arriving early morning has an additional 15+ hours of isolation compared to a crew arriving late evening.

The DHHS (VIC) doesn't want to have a bar of it and continue to hide behind the line that any early release from nominated quarantine poses a health threat to the community.
If this day zero concept is really health based, as opposed to an administration short cut, then why are some crews isolating for 336 hours and others for 350 plus?

[compressor stall]

Not all states do that. WA is to the minute from your touchdown time.

But mid last year it was 14 nights no matter what time you checked in.
Tas was 14 days/13 nights.

[Koizi]

Not all states do that. WA is to the minute from your touchdown time.

But mid last year it was 14 nights no matter what time you checked in.
Tas was 14 days/13 nights.

This makes me even more angry. One of the excuses given by the determinations team was that this a national strategy and thus it is hard to change things at a state level.

[Troo believer]

The NZ quarantine rules and the apparent hypocrisy of our own rules for aircrew now have the attention of most state and the federal governments. It will be interesting to say the least to see how this plays out. They either relax rules for Australian quarantining aircrew or require NZ to quarantine their own crew in order to keep the bubble alive. Highly unlikely. If there is no relaxing of the current draconian rules then one could surmise that the rules are completely arbitrary and not based on science. Most probably the likely outcome. Thanks LNP in advance. As an idea would those affected by this matter write to the Minister of Home Affairs and highlight the fact. Also write to your local MP. Makes some noise. Get their attention.

[Cirressna]

Does the 7 day at home 'pilot' (I know, not pilot) program for SA announcement create any relief for crew? Or is this just more of the same hypocrisy, whilst NZ crew mingle with green zone travellers without an eyelid battered.

[Veruka Salt]

Does the 7 day at home 'pilot' (I know, not pilot) program for SA announcement create any relief for crew? Or is this just more of the same hypocrisy, whilst NZ crew mingle with green zone travellers without an eyelid battered.

Or your mates at Cathay get quarantined in a HOTEL ROOM for 5 WEEKS. Despite being fully vaccinated. And Hong Kong having done vastly better at COVID than Australia. Go figure.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Or your mates at Cathay get quarantined in a HOTEL ROOM for 5 WEEKS. Despite being fully vaccinated. And Hong Kong having done vastly better at COVID than Australia. Go figure.

Chinese overlords are hard Masters…

[Paragraph377]

So in Queensland the idiotic Premier and her lapdog Dr Young are responsible for;

Saying it’s to dangerous for two pilots flying in an Anzac Day flyover to do so.

Saying that children 12 years and under don’t need to wear masks but close down schools for deep cleaning if any age child has Covid. So a child 11 years and 364 days old turns 12 half way through a lockdown. Apparently they are more contagious from one day to next.

Saying that movie stars and football teams pose no greater risk then anyone else so they get home quarantine and special treatment because they bring money to Queensland.

Saying the virus will spread more at 1800pm on Tuesday so we need a 3 day lockdown but between 12pm and 17:59pm it’s ok to panic and be at supermarkets across Qld with no masks and no social distance. Gee that virus can read a clock good.

Saying wearing masks for 2 weeks now to stop the spread of no virus in the community even though there’s no one in hospital and we have had records broken of vaccinated people last week.

Saying vaccinated people will still be quarantined. WTH! And why did the Premier and CHO stall being vaccinated themselves??

Yep, COVID, a virus from which only 0.01% of those who catch it, die and the rest recover and get on with life. What an absurd joke this has become.

[MrScooter]

Saying wearing masks for 2 weeks now to stop the spread of no virus in the community even though there’s no one in hospital and we have had records broken of vaccinated people last week.

Having just had to endure time in a queue next to someone who was obviously not well, I found myself feeling very grateful that we were both wearing masks. I do not want to get sick in the current environment - even if it's not covid.

[Icarus2001]

Yep, COVID, a virus from which only 0.01% of those who catch it, die and the rest recover and get on with life. What an absurd joke this has become.
Quote (https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11072798) I am no fan of the Qld team but I have to pull you up on 0.01% CFR

It is between 1.8% and 3%, maybe less because many have it and are asymptomatic.

I do agree with your last line however.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I am no fan of the Qld team but I have to pull you up on 0.01% CFR

It is between 1.8% and 3%, maybe less because many have it and are asymptomatic.

I do agree with your last line however.

Probably they meant to say 0.01% of the population will die from COVID as not everyone will catch it in the first place. But in fact 0.05% of the population have died from COVID…

[Pinky the pilot]

But in fact 0.05% of the population have died from COVID…

And of that 0.05%, how many died from COVID alone, ie no other underlying health problems?

[Derfred]

Actually, USA, UK, most of Europe and South America are about 0.2% deaths per total population.

Peru is around 0.6%.

[dr dre]

And of that 0.05%, how many died from COVID alone, ie no other underlying health problems?

This has been argued here plenty of times before.

To put it simply we know there has been a massive increase in excess mortality for the time period starting from March 2020 compared to the previous 5 year average. Check out the stats in the article below:

Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19) (https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid)

[Ascend Charlie]

Who is going to grant Anastacia Pallachook permission to leave QLD for the Tokyo Olympics? Will the chook be locked in a hotel room for 2 weeks on return?

Or will there be a series of Special Dispensations to allow the old duck to leave and return, but regular humans can just wait in the queue?

[Qwark]

Who is going to grant Anastacia Pallachook permission to leave QLD for the Tokyo Olympics? Will the chook be locked in a hotel room for 2 weeks on return?

Or will there be a series of Special Dispensations to allow the old duck to leave and return, but regular humans can just wait in the queue?

Hopefully the federal government wont give her permission to leave Australia!

[Chronic Snoozer]

Hopefully the federal government wont give her permission to leave Australia!

Wouldn't it be funny if she left but then couldn't get back in because of the quotas in quarantine.

[lc_461]

Who is going to grant Anastacia Pallachook permission to leave QLD for the Tokyo Olympics? Will the chook be locked in a hotel room for 2 weeks on return?

Or will there be a series of Special Dispensations to allow the old duck to leave and return, but regular humans can just wait in the queue?

Standby for QLD taxpayers to pick up the tab for a charter due these "logistical challenges" "health advice"...

[WingNut60]

Standby for QLD taxpayers to pick up the tab for a charter due these "logistical challenges" "health advice"...
I'm guessing that she's going to want to be in Tokyo by 21 July when the announcement will be made for the host city for the 2032 games for which Brisbane is a front-runner.

[Paragraph377]

Singapore has announced that they are going to stop counting COVID cases and they are going to start treating COVID as if it was a seasonal flu.

Finally a country and Government with half a brain. And before all the COVID scaredy-cats start bagging them out, Singapore is a very clean country with some of the best hospitals and medical systems on this planet.

[Chronic Snoozer]

But no chewing gum.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Singapore has announced that they are going to stop counting COVID cases and they are going to start treating COVID as if it was a seasonal flu.

Finally a country and Government with half a brain. And before all the COVID scaredy-cats start bagging them out, Singapore is a very clean country with some of the best hospitals and medical systems on this planet.

Couldn’t agree more - as more and more countries do so, we will follow.

Be good if we could lead, rather than follow though!!

[dr dre]

Singapore has announced that they are going to stop counting COVID cases and they are going to start treating COVID as if it was a seasonal flu.

Finally a country and Government with half a brain. And before all the COVID scaredy-cats start bagging them out, Singapore is a very clean country with some of the best hospitals and medical systems on this planet.

The only reason Singapore are doing that, the only reason they can do that, is their wider vaccination coverage. They are at 61% first dose and 38% second dose, with a goal of reaching 67% second dose by August 9, Singaporean National Day.

Australia is at 25% first dose and 7% second dose. We too can be in Singapore’s position when we reach similar coverage levels, whenever that will be.....

[MickG0105]

Singapore has announced that they are going to stop counting COVID cases and they are going to start treating COVID as if it was a seasonal flu.

Actually, Singapore hasn't done that at all. There seems to be some confusion between an opinion piece (https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/living-normally-with-covid-19) published in The Strait Times two weeks ago and Government policy. Two markedly different things.

The opinion piece, authored by co-chairs of Singapore's Covid-19 multi-ministry task force - Trade and Industry Minister Gan Kim Yong, Finance Minister Lawrence Wong and Health Minister Ong Ye Kung - is not much more than some thinking on how COVID-19 might be managed. It's yet another political "road map" to better times that lacks specificity. The penultimate paragraphs wrap it up:

We are drawing up a road map to transit to this new normal, in tandem with the achievement of our vaccination milestones, though we know the battle against Covid-19 will continue to be fraught with uncertainty.

In the meantime, we still need to take the necessary precautions and safeguards, to keep infections and hospitalisations at bay.

[blubak]

Singapore has announced that they are going to stop counting COVID cases and they are going to start treating COVID as if it was a seasonal flu.

Finally a country and Government with half a brain. And before all the COVID scaredy-cats start bagging them out, Singapore is a very clean country with some of the best hospitals and medical systems on this planet.
It will be very interesting to see how that works & hopefully its a very positive exercise.
Its definitely going to take something like this to make other countries take notice.
We have very good medical systems here too along with good living conditions & just need to get the vaccination debarcle sorted.
Theres no doubt Scomo has made a dogs dinner of the rollout however it was interesting to note his post on instagram this morning & the hundreds of anti vax comments.
I bet that doesnt happen in singapore.

[601]

Standby for QLD taxpayers to pick up the tab for a charter due these "logistical challenges" "health advice"...

Why a charter, the Qld Govt has the Joh Jet or its descendant.

[megle2]

601, correct except it only has one engine at present

[WingNut60]

601, correct except it only has one engine at present
..........but don't you worry about that.

[SOPS]

It will be very interesting to see how that works & hopefully its a very positive exercise.
Its definitely going to take something like this to make other countries take notice.
We have very good medical systems here too along with good living conditions & just need to get the vaccination debarcle sorted.
Theres no doubt Scomo has made a dogs dinner of the rollout however it was interesting to note his post on instagram this morning & the hundreds of anti vax comments.
I bet that doesnt happen in singapore.

I just spent some time reading those above mentioned comments. With that amount of stupidity around, we have no hope of enough people being vaccinated to allow the borders to reopen.

[601]

601, correct except it only has one engine at present

Take the Caravan.
We might get a couple months freedom.

[No Idea Either]

601, correct except it only has one engine at present

Take Mathias’ jet. He doesn’t need it any more. I’m sure slomo will let her if he gets a press conference out of it letting everyone know how empathetic he is😒😒

[Foxxster]

The only reason Singapore are doing that, the only reason they can do that, is their wider vaccination coverage. They are at 61% first dose and 38% second dose, with a goal of reaching 67% second dose by August 9, Singaporean National Day.

Australia is at 25% first dose and 7% second dose. We too can be in Singapore’s position when we reach similar coverage levels, whenever that will be.....

i suspect we will be at about 70% around Feb or March next year at which point all measures should be dropped. Masks, QR codes, lockdowns and the international borders should be swung open to all regardless of their vaccination status. The whole point of a mass vaccination program is to immunise the population. We don’t bring in any measures for flu even in bad years and once we get to around 70% of the total population, which would mean 100% of the most vulnerable, then WuHu flu should be treated exactly the same as normal flu.

[601]

“For months we’ve been advocating for a purpose-built regional quarantine facility in Queensland, like Howard Springs [near Darwin], that address the weaknesses we’ve seen in hotel quarantine,” Miles said.“The more facilities, the less risk of leaks in hotel quarantine and the more ability we will have to bring home stranded Australians coming from high-risk countries.

“Australia needs more alternatives to hotel quarantine if we want to eventually return to life as normal.”


The leak from hotel quarantine follows multiple cases where Queensland hospital workers contracted the virus despite not coming into direct contact with Covid-positive patients.

Three separate nurses at the Princess Alexandra hospital contracted Covid (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/01/was-it-airborne-brisbane-queensland-covid-outbreak-mystery-princess-alexandra-hospital-nurses-ward-5d) earlier this year – including two who caught the virus from a patient with whom they had no contact. The ward was temporarily closed and is no longer used to treat Covid patients (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/pa-hospital-ward-5d-partially-reopens-amid-bed-stress-across-region-20210512-p57r9g.html).

Similar concerns are now focused on the Prince Charles hospital, where two staff have contracted the virus. One was an unvaccinated woman who worked as a receptionist (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jun/29/queensland-covid-update-annastacia-palaszczuk-furious-as-unvaccinated-hospital-worker-tests-positive) outside the Covid ward.

The Premier of Queensland has warned that Australia simply cannot contain the new Delta variant of Covid-19 with its current systems.

So does that mean that our hospitals are as leaky as the quarantine hotels?