Irish Air Corps SAR bid machine costs

[Old jockey]

The Irish Air Corps are plotting a return to military SAR on Ireland's east coast. The Air Corps released details to the Irish Times of a deal they're believed to have agreed with Leonardo, to provide two fully SAR equipped 189's at a cost of 17.5 million euro each for the first two and 14 million euro for a third.
The big question is, are they getting a good deal?

[nowherespecial]

Depends on spec of course but assuming it's Leonardo baseline SAR config with FLIR, belly tanks, hoists etc and not a light SAR spec, I'd say that price of 17.5m EUR is exactly where it should be if not a bit on the cheaper side. Depends what LH have included in their numbers though, they could be making their money on the training and through life support.

14m EUR for a SAR 189 is crazy low.

[Old jockey]

It does seem surprisingly cheap!
They also appear to have agreed the price without having to go to a public tender, although this may be because they already have 6x 139s. It will be quite an achievement for them to get back into SAR, as they have virtually zero operational experience, having had SAR removed from them nearly 20 years ago. They have 2 or 3 pilots with previous SAR experience and the current winchcrew have zero, with all of them being recently trained.
They're also short of engineers so a lot of the maintenance will have to be contracted out.
Fun times ahead!

[Lurching]

Is there a news article?

[Old jockey]

Is there a news article?
Yes, in the Irish Times on the 7th April, with information released by the Irish Air Corps. They are concerned the UK may be a security risk :)

[chopper2004]

Here is the official link

https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/ed653-irish-coast-guard-search-and-rescue-sar-aviation-project/

cheers

[rrekn]

You sure they are AW189s? Sounds more like AW139 pricing which would make sense for the East Coast bases...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/air-corps-could-provide-maritime-search-and-rescue-service-for-east-coast-1.4531109

[minigundiplomat]

They are concerned the UK may be a security risk

When I saw that, I thought for a moment it was probably euromoney being gifted to Ireland for some petty optics on protecting the single market, but then I realised there would be no way the French would allow the Italians to get their hands on free money.

[Glevum]

Have they got enough people to provide 24/7 cover?

[Koalatiger]

Pretty sure they are referring to SAR kitted AW139’s. It does not make sense to have another type added to the fleet when they are already short of staff etc.

[Old jockey]

Have they got enough people to provide 24/7 cover?
Maybe, but only for the duration of the pandemic! After that it's unlikely they will stick around. The Irish Air Corps has a long history of struggling to keep staff :bored:

[hoistop]

I really wonder how this will do any good to taxpayer and to persons in need of SAR. Have watched this outfit for a while and also was involved for years in similar operations and am in serious doubt this will be better arrangement than current one-both for taxpayers and those in need.
But, well, maybe I will be positivelly surprised...

[Same again]

I know that it is frowned upon these days to look back more than 12 months but is anyone familiar with the history of Waterford SAR?

[Lurching]

I know that it is frowned upon these days to look back more than 12 months but is anyone familiar with the history of Waterford SAR?

Are you talking about 1999?

[Same again]

Yes - and the Sligo debacle that finally convinced the Irish Government to give the contract to a private operator.

[Una Due Tfc]

Yes - and the Sligo debacle that finally convinced the Irish Government to give the contract to a private operator.

Which incident was that?

[Northernstar]

Which incident was that?

He’s probably referring to when there was CRM failure to a spectacular level and the minister of the time brought CHC in to fly their own airframe at almost no notice. Just ask the ex navy crewman trainer who had to deal with the IAC officer attitude when teaching the crewmen. Isn’t one of them now an IAA ops inspector for Irish SAR? Oh but wait, the IAA ran for cover after the R116 crash and claimed they had no oversight despite visiting bases to spend multiple days at a a time auditing.

There seems to be a proliferation of ex IAC crew claiming SAR experience on AW139 and EC135, both types introduced since the above removal of the IAC from all SAR duties. Some of these crew are pilots in Qatari military or crewmen with a Canadian company contracting in Yemen all claiming SAR experience they don’t have. Sadly employers cannot do enough of a background check to discover they lack said experience.

Given that’s the case then a local government being lobbied heavily is only going to be swayed more and more by a false belief of capability and no understanding of methods, recency, training and knowledge. The IAC have been criticised for lack of oversight before but has the culture changed? The give-it-a-go attitude appears to prevail.

Surely it will just be another avenue to better paid civilian jobs for those who man a military SAR asset as used to be the case back in Irish S61 SAR days.

There still exists a cover up culture. The Irish Dept of defence attempted to slur the innocent student pilot in the Pc9 crash a few years back in open court in front of his still grieving family. Only after they damaged the 139 lifting some of the wreckage off the mountains and never reported it. What about the unusual attitude incident during the initial aw139 delivery in 2006. The AS365 sent to Marignane for rebuild many years before on a low loader that was never reported. The CN235 that landed at base with foliage in the landing gear. The Alouette written off claiming an engine failure when the video camera at the wedding nearby confirmed unauthorised whazzing. The video of the FR172 crash that was never publicised and the AAIB report never published. Or the CHC s61 with a smashed tailwheel when 2 IAC pilots during the work up to Sligo in 2002 attempted to lift to hover with engines at idle.

Does anyone in their right mind want that for a state SAR setup in modern times?

[Same again]

That just about sums it up. Now they want to operate SAR again? Frightening....

[Idlestop]

stuff that happened before most of the current members joined
You mean stuff like actually doing SAR? It is after all almost 20 years since the Irish Air Corps last 'played' at SAR, a little debacle that despite a dedicated aircraft and multi million Euro budget ended in the usual mess.

[[email protected]]

The question is - What SAR experience exists in the Irish Air Corps now?

Anyone can call themselves SAR qualified and experienced and a number of 'wide-boys' do exactly that with no real-world experience. Doing a bit of SAR training in nice weather does not make you SAR qualified - it's one of those 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' scenarios where the unknown unknowns come and bite you in the a&se because you thought it was all easy-peasy.

Flying an aircraft into the ground on a coastal letdown in dodgy weather is typical of the 'We can do this, we are SAR and anything goes' mentality - amateurish and dangerous.

East Coast irish SAR might not be as challenging as the West Coast on a regular basis but there are plenty of situations where the unwary could easily get caught out.

Modern SAR is no place for amateurs or turf wars.

[Franks Town]

“ SAR is no place for amateurs or turf wars”

Thats this whole discussion in a nut shell. What has developed is a concerted effort by the retired Officer Corp to push an agenda with the political backing of like minded public representative.

Enough said

[norunway]

I’ve mostly tried to stay out of the ongoing SAR debate except to try to clear up points that I can on a different Twitter thread, mostly relating to the fit of the current 139s. I’ve done so because I have friends on both sides of the argument and on one hand don’t want to see anyone having to relocate for work and on the other hand would want to see it happen for the people I know in Bal. Either way, discussions about SAR in Ireland rarely end well.

I think the remarks above are not entirely fair to the organisation or the people in it. Some of the issues raised are from well before my time, so you’re talking quarter of a century plus. I’m sure all can recognise that a legal team acting on behalf of the department are not going to be representative of the culture of the Air Corps itself. The Casa incident and the AW139 delivery flight are both used as CRM case studies internally, my understanding is that the 139 one also has an Italian incident report but I could be wrong on that. The Cessna accident in Clonbollogue is notable, because it marked the last nail in the coffin of the ‘pre Flight Safety section’ culture in the Air Corps, and that was already very much in its last legs. The AIII that was lost had a control issue not an engine failure, but again that was before my time so🤷‍♂️.

It’s worth saying that the culture and practices described above don’t match at all what I experienced in over twenty years in the place. ‘Give it a go’ and ‘cover ups’ would just have been impossible given the regulations and organisational structures in place, even if any rogue operator had been of a mind to try it.

For clarity, I do believe that either organisation be it CHC or the Air Corps have the requisite skill sets to carry out SAR on the East coast. I’m sure the Air Corps must have a sustainability plan for it because I simply can’t see the proposal getting passed the GOC otherwise. That will be a policy decision by Govt though, no doubt influenced by the Commission on Defence, not anyone in the AC.

Where all of us have more or less gone wrong though is to see this as a binary thing - Air Corps or CHC. If the AC are told no, you’re not involved in RW SAR and it goes to tender, another operator may win and they may make their case on the basis of a 139 or 189 ( or anything else), especially if the price tag is weight heavily in the final decision. If they then hoover up a bunch of AC guys to staff it, what then? Are they still not up to scratch?

I’ll bow out at that, but I think going back over such a long period of time and imagining things are the same now doesn’t help anyone and it reduces public trust in a potential provider. There’s some good cases being made about a civilian run SAR, but they're being done by putting a positive case forward, not slating the Air Corps for stuff that happened before most of the current members joined.

There is no need for anyone in Balldonnell to relocate if the Air Corps should not get a SAR base. The Air Corps already have a staffing issue to cover the roles they are obligated to provide, this has been well documented over the last number of years.

The incidents and accidents that were previously mentioned may or may not be factual but outside of the Air Corps we will never know, as the Air Corps is not subject to EASA regulation or Accident or Incident investigation by the AAIU.

The Air Corps have not conducted AWSAR for 20 years so the Air Corps should make public there reasoning where they state they have the prerequisite skills required in order to conduct AWSAR.

Regarding a sustainability plan, how many staff members will leave again once commercial air travel restarts. What sustainability plan had the Air Corps in place when the EAS had staffing issues, or was it a case of just let CHCI & Medevac 112 clean up the mess?

Should the Air Corps believe they have the required skill set, let them enter a competitive tender process along with any of the other operators competing for the contract, however they should be required to hold an AOC & Part 145 so they are subject to regulation and oversight as any other operator.

The questions people should be asking is why are the Air Corps so he’ll bent on regaining SAR, when they do not provide the service the should be providing to the Army or Navy.
Why they could only initially provide one helicopter for the wild fires last weekend, where two private helicopters were made available almost immediately.
Why a top cover aircraft was not available the night of the R116 crash.
Where is the coat analysis to show that military SAR is allegedly cheaper?

[Northernstar]

So how often have the IAC been requested for SAR top cover and how often have then been able to respond? When they did not what were the given reasons? Top cover is also a matter they are pushing forcefully where the U.K., Spain and Netherlands all have coast guard top cover as opposed to military.

Also with reference to requirement for an AOC ATO etc they are required by law, debated here before, to have exactly those functions for HEMS. German Bundespolizei have all EASA functions in place and licensed crew as they will tell you under EU law it is required. But this then begs a question as to how the authority in Ireland allow this to continue?

If the IAC wish to resume SAR it will cost more than a civilian provider already approved as there cannot be anyone still flying with SAR experience after all they do not do SAR and are not a declared asset. To train new crew in all weather SAR to cover the task takes time under training and mentorship which cannot come internally as a result. Who will be captain as nobody would meet civilian SAR or even oil and gas command criteria experience wise. There is a reason for that. To be a civilian SAR captain requires several years as a copilot learning all weather SAR.

We all know Leonardo are great at sales, so believing their pitch for cost is naive. Ask how much the FISAR and UKSAR 189’s actually cost...

Crewing issues mentioned, quite publicly the charity funded hems operation stepped in at some time not too long ago. So as mentioned they won’t have the capacity to man a 24 hour SAR operation even if there is a significant recruitment drive.

[norunway]

AWSAR will give Junior Air Corps pilots the required experience they need to deploy overseas, is one avenue they are pushing as justification to try and get AWSAR back.
Has anyone told them that AWSAR flying is one of the most demanding roles a pilot can do in a helicopter, and they are using it as some kind of stepping stone for Junior Pilots (majority of whom have less than 500hrs) to gain flying experience to deploy overseas.

[norunway]

So how often have the IAC been requested for SAR top cover and how often have then been able to respond? When they did not what were the given reasons?.


Rarely available!
It’s only provided on an as available basis! Monday - Friday 9am - 5pm!

[[email protected]]

What overseas deployments do the IAC have?

[Declan275]

What overseas deployments do the IAC have?

At the moment, none with the exception of personnel serving in DF overseas operations generally. There’s a commission on defence due to report at the end of the year and all eyes are on that. Up until relatively recently, the stated govt policy was to not send aircraft o/seas but that has now been changed, or rather, the prohibition is removed.

To answer the obvious question about staffing any potential detachment, I think the game changer that has yet to make its results apparent is the use of foreign military ab initio training. Turn the taps on with that and you can provide the service with junior members at a much increased rate.

[[email protected]]

Where is that ab initio training going to take place and what will be the quality of it?

[Declan275]

Where is that ab initio training going to take place and what will be the quality of it?

Ongoing in the US at the moment, at a guess it will have been quality assured before the first students went. At very least any gaps between the syllabi will have been identified to be filled on return to Bal.

That’s in Rucker, as far as I know, for the RW guys. There’s a few on exchange with the RAAF for FW multi engine instructor courses and the first batch of FW an initio students either are or soon will be going to the USAF for the Texan course.

[[email protected]]

I'm not sure that the vast, highly structured sausage machine that is Rucker will produce what you want or need in the IAC, especially when it comes to SAR potential.

You want pilots who think for themselves and can manage weather, not automatons who can talk a good flight.

[Declan275]

I'm not sure that the vast, highly structured sausage machine that is Rucker will produce what you want or need in the IAC, especially when it comes to SAR potential.

You want pilots who think for themselves and can manage weather, not automatons who can talk a good flight.

Hence the operational phase being done in Bal I suppose! Being familiar with our lovely weather is definitely a requirement for SAR or any of the other roles, all my more interesting moments were wx related, and always unforecast.

[norunway]

A certain UK based training provider, a company set up by ex CHC employees and a Canadian based training provider currently supplying services to the Air Corps may possibly have something to do with the drive for the Air Corps to take over Irish SAR.

These three companies have a vested interest €€€.

A number of people on various different social media platforms have stated that CHCI are a Canadian based company and that large quantities of money are leaving the state under the current contract.
CHCI are an Irish based company paying tax in Ireland, with Employees working and residing in Ireland paying tax.

The UK based training provider (ex British armed forces - yet Air Corp personnel talk about sovereignty) will pay no tax in Ireland.

The Canadian based company currently providing training services to the Air Corps pay no tax in Ireland on a contract they received with no tender (Oversight of government money?).

Instead of the Public Accounts Committee investigating the current contract, should they not turn their attention to the lack of services provided by the Air Corps for the money that they receive.

Top Cover - rarely available.
PC9’s purchased for basic training - IAC do not have jets (PC9 lead in trainer for jets).
Cadets sent to CAE US, Fort Rucker US and Australia to receive flight training.
Not able to provide 24hr coverage for fixed wing air ambulance.
Wildfires routinely covered by PDG and Executive Helicopters despite 6 x AW139’s in Balldonnell.
Not able to provide AW139’s to Army (reason they were purchased)
The list goes on!

[Northernstar]

Is this the same canadian company employing ex IAC tech crew who claim SAR experience despite their entire service being post 2003 when the IAC stopped doing SAR? Also the company operating S61’s on NVIS in Yemen where ex IAC crew are contracted?

Slight thread drift but did CHCI not hand out an NVIS training programme to a non Irish company without a tender using public contract money?

And would the company set up by ex CHC employees be a consultancy claiming to provide expertise in AWSAR which requires knowledge and flight experience of modern 4 axis glass cockpit all weather types such as those in use yet those ex chc employees don’t have such experience? Tantamount to fraud.

[Davey Emcee]

Excluding Air Corps from €1billion search and rescue contract is 'outsourcing of risk' in event of tragedy, TD claims (thesun.ie) (https://www.thesun.ie/news/6968364/air-corps-search-rescue-contract-simon-coveney/)

[Same again]

Excluding Air Corps from €1billion search and rescue contract is 'outsourcing of risk' in event of tragedy, TD claims (thesun.ie) (https://www.thesun.ie/news/6968364/air-corps-search-rescue-contract-simon-coveney/)

Rather making a sensible decision to mitigate risk I would have thought.

[[email protected]]

Agreed, that extra 140 million would quickly be used up in training the inexperienced IAC crews up to a safe level in all weather SAR.

[Koalatiger]

Why dont the gov buy the choppers and then outsource the operation and crew it with a mix of experienced civil crews and IAC :-)

[donner89]

Why dont the gov buy the choppers and then outsource the operation and crew it with a mix of experienced civil crews and IAC :-)

A CRM and SMS nightmare in the offing.....

This is a ludicrous proposal any way you look at it and I suspect it is being pushed by a cadre of officers trying to justify their existence, and maybe jack up the ‘retention bonuses’ they will surely seek to keep them in the service. All the maritime SAR experienced pilots the Air Corps had in the past are either employed with the current service provider or occupying crew seats with Ryanair.

[Koalatiger]

A CRM and SMS nightmare in the offing.....

This is a ludicrous proposal any way you look at it and I suspect it is being pushed by a cadre of officers trying to justify their existence, and maybe jack up the ‘retention bonuses’ they will surely seek to keep them in the service. All the maritime SAR experienced pilots the Air Corps had in the past are either employed with the current service provider or occupying crew seats with Ryanair.

For sure, If you throw away all CRM you learned since you started flying and bring politics and whining on the aircraft...but I am sure they are all professionals and this will not happen ;-)

[norunway]

Why dont the gov buy the choppers and then outsource the operation and crew it with a mix of experienced civil crews and IAC :-)

Do the IAC pilots operate on EASA licences?
Do the IAC have an AOC?
Do the IAC have a EASA Part 145?
Do the IAC have a EASA Part CAMO?

Your suggestion is to outsource it, is it to outsource it to a IAA EASA AOC holder, if so then how do you suggest IAC pilots operate civilian registered aircraft.

[norunway]

For sure, If you throw away all CRM you learned since you started flying and bring politics and whining on the aircraft...but I am sure they are all professionals and this will not happen ;-)

Under what regulations do you suggest that military pilots with military licences and civilian pilots with civilian licences operate under?

[Koalatiger]

Do the IAC pilots operate on EASA licences?
Do the IAC have an AOC?
Do the IAC have a EASA Part 145?
Do the IAC have a EASA Part CAMO?

Your suggestion is to outsource it, is it to outsource it to a IAA EASA AOC holder, if so then how do you suggest IAC pilots operate civilian registered aircraft.

Well obviously the IAC need to put some effort in and get a civi license, if not the majority already have it...

[Northernstar]

Do the IAC pilots operate on EASA licences?
Do the IAC have an AOC?
Do the IAC have a EASA Part 145?
Do the IAC have a EASA Part CAMO?

Your suggestion is to outsource it, is it to outsource it to a IAA EASA AOC holder, if so then how do you suggest IAC pilots operate civilian registered aircraft.


Far from arguing the point but it did not and still does not stop them doing HEMS which under EU Ops (read LAW) is a CAT function requiring all of the above.....

It would be great to hear from the civilian contract engineers for Airbus UK and the likes who have won open tender contracts for maintenance of IAC airframes such as police as to some of the issues they have faced or had to repair. It would be great also to read the report from the previously acknowledged AW139 initial ferry flight from Italy across Europe. Has it been published by the ENAC or their accident investigation counterparts?

[chopper2004]

Why dont the gov buy the choppers and then outsource the operation and crew it with a mix of experienced civil crews and IAC :-)

On a humorous note


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/564x402/8b43f290_fa7a_4dc0_97e8_1d24c3b94552_8a8c99b0f1f5cfb7fa2b9d1 197730dbbb10cde2a.jpeg

Laying aside , there be a nightmare as Donner rightly says.

I am of the adage ‚if it ain’t broke don’t fix it‘ but here’s the thing what is a near perfect solution.

Also interesting Crab‘s observation of Mother Rucker, I heard from the Heeresflieger (or was it Luftwaffe?)Huey pilots at Yeovilton Air Day 07 about some of the Mother Rucker Bundeswehr graduates who needed more tutoring when they returned to Germany. In short concerns about the Level of tutoring the students receive in Alabama. Met a CH-53GA/GS Luftwaffe crew at Austrian Helidays 2016 and the Aircraft Commander was wearing US Army aviator wings as he himself was one of the cadre of Heeresflieger who transferred few years earlier when Major changes took place with airframes being divested between the Heeresflieger and Luftwaffe.

cheers

[Franks Town]

So the Irish Coast Guards Sar tender page stated that a decision will be made in late Q2 on the model of the next contract. Rumour abound that the Air Corp have pulled the wool and got back in . SAR crew recruitment has started with external help from Heli Ops. Anyone else hearing the same

[norunway]

So the Irish Coast Guards Sar tender page stated that a decision will be made in late Q2 on the model of the next contract. Rumour abound that the Air Corp have pulled the wool and got back in . SAR crew recruitment has started with external help from Heli Ops. Anyone else hearing the same

If the IAC have been informed to start recruiting for SAR crew prior to any government announcement on the tender, does this not call into question the tender process?

[donner89]

Currently recruiting direct entry aircraft maintenance technicians, bypassing the traditional apprentice program. Going out on a limb to assume pay and benefits will not match industry standards as the defense forces personnel have been underpaid for years, unlike their civil service peers, the Gardai.
This is obviously an attempt to stem the outflow of personnel which again begs the question of adequate staffing to run a SAR contract. Heavy maintenance is now outsourced to the civil side with the AW139’s flown to Belgium for tear downs.
Watch this space, next it will be direct entry pilots albeit invitations to those with previous (military SAR) experience.

[Northernstar]

So the Irish Coast Guards Sar tender page stated that a decision will be made in late Q2 on the model of the next contract. Rumour abound that the Air Corp have pulled the wool and got back in . SAR crew recruitment has started with external help from Heli Ops. Anyone else hearing the same

Is this the same Heliops who claim delivery of SAR NVIS training to CHC Ireland yet CHC are somehow doing their own training in house at the same time? Or the same Heliops who claim modern SAR training in some old sea king with no radar on the front therefore how can the front seats learn an IMC or night letdown?

[sycamore]

N-star, the Sea-king may be `old`but many Navies/Air forces have used it for 50+ years .The radar has/had a 15/20 *degree blind-arc ahead,but using the appropriate techniques and good Crew co-operation that did not impose any limitation on crews ability to do IMC,or night IMC /NVG letdowns,even with ,in it`s earlier Mks a simplex autopilot/AFCS with full transition-down,hover/transition-up modes.

[Northernstar]

N-star, the Sea-king may be `old`but many Navies/Air forces have used it for 50+ years .The radar has/had a 15/20 *degree blind-arc ahead,but using the appropriate techniques and good Crew co-operation that did not impose any limitation on crews ability to do IMC,or night IMC /NVG letdowns,even with ,in it`s earlier Mks a simplex autopilot/AFCS with full transition-down,hover/transition-up modes.

But then it’s still not appropriate to train with that tool for use of modern airframes where the radar work is conducted by PM and PF using CRM and backed up by crew behind with moving map/FLIR etc. The point is the suitability of platform and procedures being trained as a result. Who uses SK nowadays? Even countries in the east have begun scrapping them.

[norunway]

That’s fine if the radar is working, rumour has it those Sea-kings being used to train navy pilots for a certain country in the EU are doing letdowns at night on NVIS only.
N-star, the Sea-king may be `old`but many Navies/Air forces have used it for 50+ years .The radar has/had a 15/20 *degree blind-arc ahead,but using the appropriate techniques and good Crew co-operation that did not impose any limitation on crews ability to do IMC,or night IMC /NVG letdowns,even with ,in it`s earlier Mks a simplex autopilot/AFCS with full transition-down,hover/transition-up modes.

[sycamore]

N-star,/norwy,,there is no reason why you should not train NVG letdowns without radar.In military operations,radar is not used,as it is a big `flag`,so you use the other aids you have.And above all else you should do a lot of pre-planning,using a map,for land or sea,otherwise reliance on databases in FMSs can lead you astray,as evidenced by the loss of the ICG S-92,an aircraft that has a fairly complete suite of navigation and advanced FCS,including radar...However,if you do not do the appropriate training and currency........?
You may not be aware .but military crews do not have `licences`,nor AOCs,etc,etc...they may ,of course hold such licences in a private capacity,but not under Military Rules....

[[email protected]]

Just to clarify - the Sea King radar was used for over-water letdowns when IMC, day or night, with strict procedures about overflying radar contacts.

Night over-water letdowns using NVG(NVD/NVIS) were for VMC conditions but often backed up with a radar service from the rearcrew. Additionally in later years the FLIR turret could be used to enhance SA for letdowns, but the rearcrew were the only ones who could see that.

Out of interest, the Sea King radar was of a far better resolution than modern weather radars, had a much bigger screen with higher levels of processing and a dedicated radar operator - not a co-pilot who also has to perform PM duties as well.

[Northernstar]

So the question stands: given nobody uses the SK anymore what relevance does that procedure have. All modern SAR aircraft have radar up front with appropriate sweep bias and it’s pilot driven radar let downs as a result. Regardless of who thinks what is or was better the point is whether teaching using such a different setup is appropriate and relevant and the clear fact pilots are not able to see radar on screen up front which is what they will need in a 139, 189, 175, 225, 92, even 101 unless I’m mistaken as to NAWSAR airframes. Now if the letdowns are being taught purely VMC and with no radar that’s a whole new level of unacceptability in the modern all weather 4 axis SAR environment. What is taught in newquay in the civilian reg 412 out of curiosity?

[[email protected]]

All VFR there I believe.

The guys teaching on the Sea King are doing it for a client/Govt that still uses them so it is quite appropriate.

Teaching NVD letdowns without radar is completely acceptable.

Not having NVD on a modern SAR platform is the disgrace.

[jimf671]

... ...

Not having NVD on a modern SAR platform is the disgrace. :ok:


Where's the 'Like' button we ordered? :cool:

[Franks Town]

Government Decision on new Coast Guard Aviation ServiceGovernment today (27 July 2021) agreed to commence the formal procurement process for a new Coast Guard aviation service in October next. The service is currently contracted to CHC Ireland and may be extended up to June 2025 at the latest. The decision was based on a detailed appraisal and business case prepared by KPMG for the Department of Transport, and was brought to Government by the Minister for Transport, Eamon Ryan, T.D.

The business case brought to Government set out the strategic case for a new service, considered the range of options for how such a service could be delivered, including the potential for the Air Corps to provide an element of the service as a “hybrid” option alongside another civil operator. It also sets out an implementation plan to achieve the desired service. The detailed appraisal included a financial and economic appraisal of short-listed options, with an assessment of costs, benefits, affordability, deliverability, risks and sensitivities associated with the options. The approval of the business case is one of the key steps required in the Public Spending Code (PSC). Details of the procurement will be announced in October when the formal Pre-Qualification requirements for tendering will be published.

Commenting on the decision, Minister for Transport, Eamon Ryan T.D. said: “After a lengthy deliberative process, I am glad we now have a decision to proceed to tender based on a business case which has considered all relevant aspects involved including its core SAR role but also the important secondary benefits to be derived from the service including supports to the island communities and the Health Service Executive. The report considered all the various options for how the service can be best delivered, the demand drivers and the changing technological and market environment in which this procurement will be set. This is a costly but vital service to the State and it is important that we optimise the benefits to be derived from it”.

The Minister for Defence and Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney, T.D welcomed the decision and the fact that it provides for the possibility of the Air Corps providing a new fixed wing element as part of the Coast Guard’s overall aviation service: “My Department and the Air Corps, working in close consultation with the Irish Coast Guard over the next two and a half months, will look at how the Air Corps might provide a dedicated fixed wing element of the service which meets the requirements and parameters which are now clearly set out in the business case”.

Minister of State Hildegarde Naughton T.D. also welcomed the decision and thanked those stakeholders across the SAR system and the relevant Departments and state entities who have informed the deliberations on this process to date. “The decision paves the way for the procurement of this vital element of our Search and Rescue system over a 10 year period. The timelines and procurement strategy agreed today will ensure a seamless transition from the existing contract with CHCI. It will also offer the potential to avail of developments in technology since the last contract was let in 2010 and to build on the experience and lessons learnt over the last 10 years.”

She added: “The process of consultation and deliberation started over 18 months ago and has included extensive discussions with state and voluntary organisations involved and reliant to one degree or another on the Irish Coast Guard’s aviation service. Their views have helped to inform and shape the scope and nature of the new service which KPMG’s business case has appraised and costed”.

The formal procurement documentation will describe the expectations and requirements for the pre-qualification stage of the procurement. This will be published by end October next when the formal procurement is launched.

Based on the business case analysis, the new service is expected to benefit from some new elements including a dedicated fixed wing component to provide the IRCG with an on-call pollution monitoring, high endurance search and top cover capability. It also has the potential to allow a more innovative helicopter fleet. The helicopter element will include night vision capability from the outset. From a competitive perspective, the procurement will benefit from a more extensive range of potential helicopter solutions than would have been on the market in 2010.

The current service already provides significant secondary services to the HSE and the National Ambulance Services and medical evacuation services to the island communities. The service scoped in the business case will continue to deliver these ancillary services and has the potential to deliver more supports to the HSE and additional fire-fighting capability to the Department of Housing / Fire Services. These aspects will be subject to further discussion with those services as the procurement strategy advances.

The cost of the existing contract is in the region of €60m a year. The analysis concludes that the estimated costs for a new service could be similar although the precise costings set out in the business case are premised on a number of different assumptions and based on a different model to the current one. The costings are confidential and commercially sensitive. The actual cost will only be known once the tenders have been received, evaluated and Government awards the tender – expected to be in March 2023.

[jimf671]

... ...
... ... Not having NVD on a modern SAR platform is the disgrace.

"The helicopter element will include night vision capability from the outset." :ok:

"The cost of the existing contract is in the region of €60m a year. The analysis concludes that the estimated costs for a new service could be similar ... "
Really? Why have I a bad feeling about this?

[jimf671]

Download update.
GOV.IE Update, 2021-08-09 (https://assets.gov.ie/181230/03074dcf-3d61-46fb-aa64-b2945211038c.pdf)
If your so #e<&in rich then it might be time to spend proper money on keeping your people safe.