Grumman Avenger down in Cocoa Beach, Florida

[Two's in]

Sad to see a Grumman Avenger ditch just off the beach today at the Cocoa Beach Air Show. Looked like an engine failure, followed by a text book ditching. Pilot seemed to be OK. Looks like it was from the Valiant Air Command group.

[treadigraph]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/249862

Nicely done in the circumstances. Hope they can fish it out before any further damage is done...

[sharpend]

Nearly hit a swimmer, popped over him. That is always the problem ditching in shallow water close to a busy beach. Pity the water there was also deep & the aeroplane sank. I suspect it will be a write off, but hopefully repairable. Luckily no one hurt.

[Buster Hyman]

Maj. Nelson should be able to sort that.

[dragon166]

Video of the landing is now on BBC news
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-56792530

[Mookiesurfs]

Pilot is ok, declined medical treatment. Water depth about 1 meter. At the very end of the ditch, it looks like an abrupt stop as the nose stuffs into the sand. Fwiw, same type of plane President Bush was shot down in during WW2, then rescued by submarine.

[gums]

Salute!

Previous poster might explain the brief rise in the glide angle to avoid a swimmer. Then the final impact a little more of a mush.

Local TV has several videos, including one by a TV dude from the station. This is first airshow for the Thunderbirds 2021, and the Space Coast is BZ this week with another Crew Dragon going to the ISS on Thursday.

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/watch-plane-goes-down-during-cocoa-beach-air-show-lands-in-ocean

I was surprised the TV dude did not show the crew getting out and the beach folks helping as they normally do here in Florida when a swimmer is in distress.

Gums sends...

[Airbubba]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/175329968_10222747744313602_8646202072192205386_n_0dc940dbbe 683e6a39bec522cf09c9b7d536f687.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1493/175567705_10222747746153648_7389401913632228132_n_3ba63a2ff8 6fa5a3523121af2bd485d530d0df1a.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/175093184_10222747750913767_2500577776812322718_n_0c13e492c7 95ae6fb874a218ea75609ef87acde5.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/175134261_10222747747513682_2083442971933645801_n_dbd421b90d 7c2ebcf7bc43681b6951d907518f23.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/175348708_10222747754073846_4187399787940519041_n_2f26dba7d6 2ec0b6e5f80211bcd014fb14fb7e94.jpg

Pictures by Amber Ditmer posted on Facebook.

[sycamore]

Think the climb might have been last lot of flaps down,and just avoiding the swimmer...
However,it was a good ditching,but..
Open the canopies before touchdown..
Wear a lifejacket operating over the sea...
Wear a `hard-hat`,as the canopy rail runs right across the top....
and if you don`t and it had turned over....would`ve been possibly a different outcome....but ,hey ..ya gotta look good climbing out....shame he`s not wearing Randolphs...

Oh ,yes ,I do have TBM display time,and over the `oggin....and Randolphs...

[West Coast]

She’s out of the water.

https://spacecoastdaily.com/2021/04/images-world-war-ii-era-tbm-avenger-that-ditched-off-brevard-coast-pulled-from-ocean/

[tdracer]

A restored Boeing 307 Stratoliner ditched in Elliot Bay off West Seattle back in 2002 when it ran out of fuel on the way to Boeing Field (I know one of the pilots involved - never dared to ask him about it though).
It was hauled out of the water, cleaned up, and was flight worth again about a year later. It was flown to Dulles where it's currently on display at the Smithsonian Udvar-Hazy museum.

[megan]

td, Stratoliner report here.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20020401X00435&AKey=1&RType=Factual&IType=FA

[NutLoose]

Nice to see all those folks on the beech socially distancing and wearing masks.... Nice landing, it was only flown last year after an 18 year rebuild.

[Less Hair]

Lucky to have escaped those swimmers only by a tight margin.But it might be the lens.
It looks like done in the smoothest way possible and everybody could walk away. This is what matters.

[Two's in]

Nice to see all those folks on the beech socially distancing and wearing masks....

Nutloose, it's Florida. If Darwin had come here instead of the Galapagos, evolution would still be a wild theory...

[Airbubba]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1653x951/tbm_ditch_2_79535b40384c8a47788281628aa9ee9ee22312f4.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1650x1099/tbm_ditch_06e96f6e7f8532a2d1fa5f327830876a360ebed2.jpg

[TBM-Legend]

That's a lot of damage. Interesting how the paint peeled off the cowling...

[VintageEngineer]

That is poor. I’d be demanding the whole aircraft be redone if I didn’t have larger issues to deal with. I’ve had to deal with salt water immersion before and that is going to take time and deep pockets to sort.

I believe the restoration team took 18 years to restore it and it only flew again a few months ago. I feel for them, particularly the volunteers. They must be crying in their beers.

FWIW My immediate reaction on seeing the video was horror at the risks of hitting someone in the water. The length of the ditching run may be short, but the chances of not seeing and landing on a swimmer were high. I suspect many non-aviation people will think the same once they’ve finished marvelling at the video, which is widely distributed, getting as far as The Sun. Of course, the pilot may have had little choice or time for anything else - he had passed down the beach at low level earlier at the same event and the prop seems to be slowing - but it is an interesting counterpoint to the “the hero pilot bravely stayed at the controls to steer the crashing aircraft away from houses” that we often hear.

[NutLoose]

Surprised they never used spreader beams on the slings to prevent some of the damage from the lift. It needs a lot of fresh water putting through it followed by something like ACF 50.

[charliegolf]

May I ask a stoopid question?

When the aircraft stopped on the surface, would (in an Avenger) there have been a 'blow-down' facility on the gear? Obviously I get why it wasn't down before then. (It works on a Vulcan, I saw it in Thunderball!)

CG

[falcon900]

A good amount of paint came off the starboard fuselage just ahead of the tail too. Depressing to see just how second hand she looks after such a gentle ditching and short immersion.

[treadigraph]

I think emergency gear extension is free fall, plus maybe some "G" to lock down - looked to me like it was sitting on the seafloor almost immediately after it stopped.

[charliegolf]

I think emergency gear extension is free fall, plus maybe some "G" to lock down - looked to me like it was sitting on the seafloor almost immediately after it stopped.

Makes sense, thanks. I wondered about an air bottle or some such.

CG

[GeeRam]

Think the climb might have been last lot of flaps down,and just avoiding the swimmer...
However,it was a good ditching,but..
Open the canopies before touchdown..
Wear a lifejacket operating over the sea...
Wear a `hard-hat`,as the canopy rail runs right across the top....
and if you don`t and it had turned over....would`ve been possibly a different outcome....but ,hey ..ya gotta look good climbing out....shame he`s not wearing Randolphs...

Oh ,yes ,I do have TBM display time,and over the `oggin....and Randolphs...

The pilot that lost his life when he ditched that P-47D in the Hudson river after engine failure a few years ago, likely lost his life because he failed to jettison the canopy prior to hitting the water, as per SOP and was trapped inside as the aircraft then sank.

[Nige321]

A bit battered and bruised...
Valiant Air Command, Inc. gives an update on the N108Q Avenger accident that occurred on April 17th in Cocoa Beach, FL:

"After much effort, we have managed to fold both of the wings, place her on the trailer, and strap her down, ready for travel. This was accomplished despite mother nature throwing some curve balls with the weather. We are now waiting for the necessary permits to move her home.

Thank you to the volunteers who assisted with this, along with the security forces and fire services at the Patrick Space Force Base.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/screenshot_2021_04_20_at_14_41_17_80c400dde75fdce6b06977362c e8e1ed7721cce0.jpg

[NutLoose]

Prop looks like it might straighten. as for gear freefalling I was surprised they never tried it before lifting, then as it rose they could pull it manually down and lock it, that way they would have had the gear to put it down on when lowering out of the sea, but I don't know the system it uses.. Cowl paint simply hasn't adhered to the primer, that would have eventually shown itself up.

[sycamore]

CG/Treads/Nutty,..the gear can be lowered by using the handpump; if that fails there is an `unlock the uplocks`` handle ,and it should freefall with springs assistance...likewise the wings can be folded by the same handpump,but is `knackering`....don`t ask...!

[treadigraph]

Sycamore, I assume you never flew Stephen Grey's Wildcat? I think the standard method of undercarriage retraction/extension involved a considerable number of turns on a cranking mechanism, with the facility to crack yer knuckles if your hand slipped...

If Lomcevak reads this, he can probably confirm the first bit, hopefully not the second!

[NutLoose]

That’s correct for the wildcat. But this isn’t one.

update.

Avenger was hydraulic with back up hand pump and free fall emergency facility, found the TBF1 manual here

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/grumman-avenger-tbf-1-pilots-handbook.38589/

[TBM-Legend]

I owned and flew my TBM Avenger for 20 years. The gear is hydraulic and the emergency extension is pull the uplocks manually and free fall. Agree our man should have opened the canopy. Lots of damage to that aircraft particularly underneath.

[treadigraph]

That’s correct for the wildcat. But this isn’t one.

Apologies, I didn't intend to suggest the Avenger uses the same gear retraction system as the Avenger - rather that the Wildcat's (and presumably the earlier pigeon-chested Grumman biplanes) standard method of gear retraction was as knackering as the backup system in the Avenger (I think I recall 40 turns being required to stow it)... and some people profess to enjoy flying it...! :)

[[email protected]]

Seems to me that most of the damage to the tail must have been done during the recovery operation.

[GeeRam]

Interesting photo's appearing elsewhere taken from their B-25 of the formation enroute to Cocoa Beach and its quite clear that there is an obvious blue smoke trail coming from the TBM before even getting to Cooca Beach.

[meleagertoo]

Looks like an extraordianrlily hazardous place for a forced landing with all those swimmers who would be invisible until the last moment. As it was he seems to have only narrowly missed a couple, and there was a whole crowd of them just ahead of where they stopped. Fifty yards further out and there would have been no hazard to 3rd parties...but a sunken airframe. I wonder if that was a factor in landing so very close to the beach.

[GeeRam]

Looks like an extraordianrlily hazardous place for a forced landing with all those swimmers who would be invisible until the last moment. As it was he seems to have only narrowly missed a couple, and there was a whole crowd of them just ahead of where they stopped. Fifty yards further out and there would have been no hazard to 3rd parties...but a sunken airframe. I wonder if that was a factor in landing so very close to the beach.

Possibly.
Plus pilot also not appearing to be wearing any life vest/preserver for an over water display, so again not wanting to be risking ditching in deeper water?

[NutLoose]

Apologies, I didn't intend to suggest the Avenger uses the same gear retraction system as the Avenger - rather that the Wildcat's (and presumably the earlier pigeon-chested Grumman biplanes) standard method of gear retraction was as knackering as the backup system in the Avenger (I think I recall 40 turns being required to stow it)... and some people profess to enjoy flying it...! :)

No, not your error, mine, I was in a rush so just put a short answer that may have appeared a tad abrupt, one meant to post a longer version later but fell asleep.

[NutLoose]

Seems to me that most of the damage to the tail must have been done during the recovery operation.

and the wing, though bouncing up and down in the surf you don't know what its beating itself against, the missing bomb door for one

[meleagertoo]

You can see in Airbubba's first pic how the flaps are folded under the wing by it being dragged out of the oggin and up the beach. It will have suffered quite a bit more damage in that process before it got close enough to a crane on a hard surface to be able to lift it (and that rather brutally by the looks of it). The steel hawser has chewed up the engine firewall pretty badly.
No lifejacket. No helmet. Canopy closed.
Hmmm.
I'll await the NTSB's views on very nearly landing on top of swimmers instead of a safe distance offshore with interest.

[treadigraph]

I've seen it suggested elsewhere that he was hoping to get it down on Patrick AFB's runway, but didn't get quite close enough. Looking at the pic in Nige321's post above, the ditching appears to have taken place adjacent to the beach side car park in the centre of the map here (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@28.2582146,-80.6045072,492m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) - about half a mile short and with the beach and A1A to cross.

Watched Discovery launch from KSC from around that spot in September '88 - a bonus was watching a U-2 launch from Patrick a short while before (a U-2 and not a TR-1!).

[Two's in]

All the the want of a bit more altitude. There's 5 substantial runways within a 20 miles radius of the ditching point, but if you can't there, you can't there.

[LOMCEVAK]

Sycamore, I assume you never flew Stephen Grey's Wildcat? I think the standard method of undercarriage retraction/extension involved a considerable number of turns on a cranking mechanism, with the facility to crack yer knuckles if your hand slipped...

If Lomcevak reads this, he can probably confirm the first bit, hopefully not the second!
First confirmed, managed to avoid the second. If not well rigged then when lowering the gear it can free fall and the handle rotates very quickly! TFC’s is well rigged.

[TBM-Legend]

The Avenger glides like a brick. Heavy aircraft with lots of drag, windmilling prop or partial power. If you start turn the situation get worse quickly says I who just made it back to a runway in mine when the engine quite turning a reasonably tight base. I immediately pulled the gear up and left the flap as it was [about half] and at about 200' over the fence put the gear down and had "jellied" legs....

[NutLoose]

You have got to be seriously kidding....... words fail me re recovery.

https://youtu.be/XSORkfEGTVI

[West Coast]

The decision to write it off perhaps might have been made before the drag.

[skydiver69]

You have got to be seriously kidding....... words fail me re recovery.

https://youtu.be/XSORkfEGTVI
Blancoilirio on YT has a video explaining why it had to be recovered that way. The initial plan was to support it with inflatable pontoons and tow it to a nearby inland waterway where it was to be lifted onto a lorry but the local authorities objected to that plan. As a result and because the crane couldn't get closer than the edge of the beach, it had t be dragged out as seen on the video you posted, He also pointed out that some of the damage to the torpedo bay doors probably happened overnight as they organised the recovery, when the Grumman grounded on the beach.

[sycamore]

They`d have done better with a Chinook,or a -53/64....

[oxenos]

Or even some rollers.

[NutLoose]

So why didn’t they float it with bags position it over a sledge and pull the sledge up the beach, heck even a boat trailer would have been better and simply modified to sit it on.

[GeeRam]

The decision to write it off perhaps might have been made before the drag.

I suspect that is the case, given the relative cost of another complete nut and bolt strip and rebuild vs. cost of just buying another already airworthy Avenger?
Probably trying to get it out as quick as possibly to salvage as many parts and components as they can before the salt ruins everything.

[Bksmithca]

I suspect that is the case, given the relative cost of another complete nut and bolt strip and rebuild vs. cost of just buying another already airworthy Avenger?
Probably trying to get it out as quick as possibly to salvage as many parts and components as they can before the salt ruins everything.
GeeRam
One would have to wonder how many airworthy Avengers there are that are available to purchase.

[treadigraph]

This one for starters...

https://www.platinumfighters.com/inventory-2/1945-grumman-tbm-3e-avenger-

Mind you, I'd prefer the Bearcat they are also advertising but it is a teensy bit more expensive...

[ancientaviator62]

tredigraph,
you should not have put up that link ! I should have been cutting the grass and was sidetracked to the site. The Waco Cabin Class would be my take home ! Or perhaps the SF 260.

[NutLoose]

Well at least it’s not an SF260W so is a civilian model, bit of a pain getting spares for, the “factory” is geared towards the military.
Looked after one for quite a while, nice to fly in too, but took a lot of slowing down. It took us 6 months to get a nose leg for the one I looked after, getting motor brushes for the gear / flaps etc was a nightmare.

[GeeRam]

GeeRam
One would have to wonder how many airworthy Avengers there are that are available to purchase.

That's relatively easy, there are about 30 currently airworthy TBM's in North America alone, and the airworthy one that was based in Switzerland has I believe recently sold for a lot less than the advertised price of the one in the ad that NutLoose linked to. With a 'value' of under $500k to buy, but a restoration cost of probably 3 to 4 times that, it will have to be a very dedicated team to undertake another restoration on this. Mind you, the Blenheim team did it, but they are a lot rarer!!!

[West Coast]

$495,000 USD, that’s a lot cheaper than I would have thought. Anyone want to go in halfs?

[Watson1963]

From Dan Gryder ...
https://youtu.be/mVFwYqueJ58

[Mogwi]

Ouch!

As someone who regularly flies an 82-year old aeroplane, this makes appalling listening.

Mog

[Less Hair]

Scary stuff.

[FlightlessParrot]

Scary indeed, and he's obviously not worried about defamation laws. Can I ask what his reputation is like? I find some people on the web who don't think highly of Dan Gryder, and I have no way to make a judgement.

[rich34glider]

Sounds like the cowboys are going to stop us having nice things again ...

[Less Hair]

If nobody joined the safety briefing before and he flew trailing smoke still getting cleared into the box and finally crashed in the public area more is wrong than just a video blogger.
He is right the FAA might have to stop an entire industry if a ton of things don't improve fast.
I have a friend owning a Mustang and I know what it takes to fly it safe and get it insured.

[GeeRam]

Sounds like the cowboys are going to stop us having nice things again ...

I think that's why Gryder went 'off on one' probably a bit excessively OTT, and has ruffled feathers, because he probably does care about the powers that be putting a stop to everyone's fun, rather than trying to just weed out the cowboys. He clearly hopes the industry will tidy up their own backyard before someone else comes in and does it for them, by removing the backyard entirely.
There clearly are good operations out there, as witness by the EAA immediately grounding their B-17G the other day and cancelling the B-17 tour season this year, after an observant crew members spotted a slight abnormality during a pre-flight, resulting in further inspection which showed fatigue issues in part of the structure.

[NutLoose]

Utterly appalling.

[rich34glider]

I think that's why Gryder went 'off on one' probably a bit excessively OTT, and has ruffled feathers, because he probably does care about the powers that be putting a stop to everyone's fun, rather than trying to just weed out the cowboys. He clearly hopes the industry will tidy up their own backyard before someone else comes in and does it for them, by removing the backyard entirely.
There clearly are good operations out there, as witness by the EAA immediately grounding their B-17G the other day and cancelling the B-17 tour season this year, after an observant crew members spotted a slight abnormality during a pre-flight, resulting in further inspection which showed fatigue issues in part of the structure.

Yep, unfortunately a lack of professionalism by just a few can quickly ruin things for everyone.