Cessna 'Down' near Sutton, N. of Canberra

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Report of a 'Cessna Aircraft' down near Sutton, N. of Canberra, at about 4.35PM EST this afternoon..
Aircraft has a logo suggesting that it may have been engaged in power line survey....

Two dead in light plane crash near Sutton, north of Canberra (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/two-dead-in-light-plane-crash-near-sutton-north-of-canberra/ar-BB1fAXcl?ocid=msedgdhp)

That is all at this time.

[0ttoL]

I lost a school mate back in a 1995 crash of a power line survey plane near Dunkeld, VIC
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1995/aair/aair199503131/

It’s a dangerous business. I hope that some is working on doing this work with drones or another method.
My condolences to all those involved.

[aroa]

Not good. One would think something with a bit more grunt than a C172 would be better/ safer for such a job.
Bring in the drone otherwise

[Squawk7700]

For years they used to use a JetRanger to inspect the gas line from Longford to Melbourne and they could hover or land wherever if needed. With inevitable cost cutting last time I saw they were back to using a 210.

[Torukmacto]

For years they used to use a JetRanger to inspect the gas line from Longford to Melbourne and they could hover or land wherever if needed. With inevitable cost cutting last time I saw they were back to using a 210.

I did the Longford to Melbourne pipe line inspection for 4 years in late 80’s to early 90’s in a C-182 . Pipeline easy to see as grass was different colour and markers where prominent. No need to get low . Just make sure no one digging it up or new fences erected . The 182 with a bit of flap was slow and powerful enough to get the job done safely in my opinion .

[neville_nobody]

Drones wouldn't have the range to do powerline inspections. You would spend more time finding the thing and changing the batteries in the middle of nowhere than actually doing the inspection itself.
As mentioned previously helicopters are the solution and arguably safer but noone wants to pay for it.

[Art Smass]

Usually rotary doing those jobs around our part of NSW

[nojwod]

Webtrack shows an hour or so of normal activity right up to the loss of signal. A few tighter turns a few minutes before the accident. Altitude was quite stable at 2163' if I remember, and the aircraft was tracking straight and level at the end. 172s are prone to stall during climbing turns however there was no indication the aircraft was changing altitude or course. Not that radar tracks are reliable in rural areas, but it's a mystery.

[pistonpuffer]

Not all drones are battery powered. I remember when visiting Jabiru at Bundy they were making a drone, sort of a Jab 120 lineage I guess, for some south african country.
I agree with another post, 182 with STOL kit may be a better choice for 2 POB.
Can someone tell me what are you looking for when flying over the lines?

[Ascend Charlie]

Can someone tell me what are you looking for when flying over the lines?

The things we looked for were:
Broken insulators, frayed wires, broken wires, trees infringing the cleared area, pole caps missing, cross-arms rotting, tracking marks (electrical leakage) on cross-arms, missing coloured warning indicators of crossing lines ahead.

In a chopper, puttering along at 25-30 kt, easy to see any faults, easy to circle back and hover next to a fault, easy to scare the snot out of horses grazing under the lines, hard to fly steady when the line made a heading change and it was all cross-wind or even downwind - usually the inspections were in May-July, with the westerly winds roaring out of the Blew Mountains.

In the early 90s, Integral Energy put out a tender which required the helicopter providers to be Quality Assured. Nobody in Oz woz. We made the effort and started the process, masses of paperwork, submitting QA manuals for approval, getting knocked back, paying more money, re-writing, knockbacks, and finally getting approval after around 6 months. The tenders had closed well before that, but as we were the only company to even have started QA approval, we got the job, and spent 2 or 3 months inspecting the lines. One spot I saw was down near Lithgow, a lightning strike had splintered the pole and the wires fell to the ground, still live. A cow wandered over to look, trod on the wire and dropped to the ground. A fox came to chew on the cow, same fate. Even a crow which wanted a feast got blown to a pile of feathers. All reported.

Next year, same lines, I saw the same pole, but with wires put back onto it, skeletons of cow and fox and feathers still there. I asked the inspector why this and multiple other faults weren't fixed, he replied that during the year when the energy providers all amalgamated into one, there had been a maintenance team in each council area, but under one group, there was only one team retained. Too far to go to look at everything. The policy became "wait till it fails, too expensive to fix minor faults, let them become major faults."

Then the reason for inspections became simply to get insurance cover against dropped lines causing bushfires. They started using fixed wing (one of the inspectors owned a Cessna and had a private licence...) scooting along at 120kt , not seeing the minor faults, and then putting in the report "All good. Insurance cover please."

So much for Quality Assurance.

[Squawk7700]

I did the Longford to Melbourne pipe line inspection for 4 years in late 80’s to early 90’s in a C-182 . Pipeline easy to see as grass was different colour and markers where prominent. No need to get low . Just make sure no one digging it up or new fences erected . The 182 with a bit of flap was slow and powerful enough to get the job done safely in my opinion .

Ah that’s interesting. I moved next to the pipeline in 1990 and it was a Jetranger on a weekly basis. It was usually a Saturday morning as I wasn’t home during the week. I guess their S-76’s were too costly for the exercise :-)

Was later replaced by either a 210 / RG so I guess it could have been a Cutlass as I didn’t know the difference back then.

[Ixixly]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-13/reports-of-light-plane-crash-near-canberra/100066868

Both deceased, reports of going into a spin by a local who witnessed it and the photos look pretty ugly. Stay safe out there everyone.

[Torukmacto]

Ah that’s interesting. I moved next to the pipeline in 1990 and it was a Jetranger on a weekly basis. It was usually a Saturday morning as I wasn’t home during the week. I guess their S-76’s were too costly for the exercise :-)

Was later replaced by either a 210 / RG so I guess it could have been a Cutlass as I didn’t know the difference back then.

Log books are being relocated after job loss so can’t confirm exact year but defiantly from 1988 for a year or two . Working for a local airline based in Welshpool . Think we lost contract to a rotary wing operator . Reading the requirements for power lines it sounds like it’s a job for a helicopter. A hot pipeline is not hard to follow especially in winter with livestock sleeping on the warm ground .

[Duck Pilot]

I’m pretty sure most powerline inspections could be now done with small fixed wing drones such as a Wingtra operating under BVLOS conditions.

[Squawk7700]

Log books are being relocated after job loss so can’t confirm exact year but defiantly from 1988 for a year or two . Working for a local airline based in Welshpool . Think we lost contract to a rotary wing operator . Reading the requirements for power lines it sounds like it’s a job for a helicopter. A hot pipeline is not hard to follow especially in winter with livestock sleeping on the warm ground .

Apologies if I made it sound like I was questioning your timeline. Mine may have been a little loose. PromAir, lots of stories from there I’ll bet.


Regarding drones, it feels like a $60k 172 would do the job in far less time in terms of purchase price, staff numbers and not require a ground based vehicle. Some of these drones are well in excess of $200k and require dual operators etc.

[Torukmacto]

You been around awhile and know your local history , yes 6 years at promair . Yes , lots of stories which are filed as fiction when told in the cockpit these days .

[nojwod]

Apologies if I made it sound like I was questioning your timeline. Mine may have been a little loose. PromAir, lots of stories from there I’ll bet.


Regarding drones, it feels like a $60k 172 would do the job in far less time in terms of purchase price, staff numbers and not require a ground based vehicle. Some of these drones are well in excess of $200k and require dual operators etc.
Yes our electricity supplier had a $500k drone shot down in rugged country, presumably by crop growers, could buy a lot of chopper time for that!

[aroa]

On a helicopter powerline job in NZ years ago ...a controlled video camera looked ahead and then swung down ..all to get hi res coverage and a gps spot on passing over the pole or tower.
All this could be looked at back in the office and any defects , enlarged on the screen and noted.
And the fwd view gave the country surrounds for ease of access or difficulty.

But like any Low level op there are hazards. Fatalities occurred when following a small line the chopper hit wires from a higher over passing transmission line.

The really dangerous job to me is the insulator washing op. I like to watch that from solid ground. Scary !

[Duck Pilot]

Accidents such as this only throws my fuel on the fire for drones, stop reminiscing!!!

[Torukmacto]

To all our aviation friends,
It is with heavy heart that we write this post following the passing of Tom and Hayden. They were both remarkable young blokes that were just following their dreams.
They lost their lives trying to keep us safe. The importance of what they were doing in power line survey cannot be underestimated as we have seen by the devastating bushfires that nearly wiped-out Tom’s place only a year ago.
To us, they are heroes and always will be. We will miss them both dearly. Our love goes out to their family, friends and love ones.
Keep strong all and get around each other.
Ian, Rhena and the Expanse Team.

[Super Cecil]

Adequate training should be done, not sure if that was the case here? An Ag rating should be considered minimum for ANY low level work. There has been a trend for a so called "Low level " endorsements for powerline inspection, training should cover all conditions/weather.

[Capt Fathom]

An Ag rating should be considered minimum for ANY low level work.

Why an AG Rating? It is for a very specific purpose!

[roundsounds]

Adequate training should be done, not sure if that was the case here? An Ag rating should be considered minimum for ANY low level work. There has been a trend for a so called "Low level " endorsements for powerline inspection, training should cover all conditions/weather.

You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about in regards to this accident and those involved.

[Dora-9]

You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about in regards to this accident and those involved.

Well said, roundsounds.

[dysslexicgod]

Would it be safer to use a zenith 750 or suchlike with LE slats and good s low speed capabilities?

[Ascend Charlie]

training should cover all conditions/weather.

Cecil, we didn't go out on powerline inspections if there was low cloud / rain / fog / strong winds / night time.

And an Ag rating is absolutely not needed.

[Super Cecil]

You blokes are not the only ones to have done powerline work, wasting time here listening to you blokes dribble

[ThrushG10]

You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about in regards to this accident and those involved.
Oh how wrong you are roundsounds.

[FJ44]

You blokes are not the only ones to have done powerline work, wasting time here listening to you blokes dribble

Don’t worry Cecil, you can’t expect those without experience like yours to understand the low level world in it’s entirety.

Extremely sad to see lives lost.

Unfortunately with the way these power companies are, it will always be contracted out to the cheapest operation, not necessarily to the safest or most appropriate means of doing the job.

[aroa]

I'll dribble in a quick question...on the day of the accident I saw on TV about the raging cold front/snow/ strong winds doing a job on SE Oz.
How was the weather in the Sutton area at the time ?

[mickjoebill]

Have spent a lot of time low and slow in the back seat for aerial filming.

As most would know, High voltage powerlines are a doddle to survey compared to distribution lines that duck and weave and do their best to hide in the trees.

Did a season in NSW operating a power company's $700k stabilised gimbal. I believe this operation has since been replaced with a hand held stills.(?)
The idea was to fly higher and faster and record in HD (2k) and do a QA check in the office on a big screen. This was a success apart from its high cost (!) The demonstration/proving sales pitch was conducted during a short demo flight of poles that were not obstructed by trees so poles per minute count was higher than real world.

An accident database I collated 2000-2013, the number of incidents where stabilised gimbals are employed is very low compared to open door shooting. My view is, in general, the more expensive the cost per hour the better managed is the flight.
New technology of relevance, in the last few weeks Sony launched a 8k stills camera which is cable of 30fps. Late last year a 12k motion picture camera became available from South Melbourne run company Blackmagic design. The cost of exterior mounted stabilsied gimbals to house these cameras remains relatively high and is a barrier to their use.
Lidar continues to improve as well.

In the 1990's the cost of burying all the power lines in Australia was put at $50B. https://www.aph.gov.au/sitecore/content/Home/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/Publications_Archive/CIB/CIB9697/97cib11
In 2002 cost of replacing aerial with underground lines in NSW was $7500 per customer, if this was amortised over 15 years I believe it is doable.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/powerlines-may-be-buried-if-you-pay-20020730-gdfhx4.html

Roll on to 2019 in USA is $3m per mile (run buy energy companies rather than community) for distribution lines or $15k per customer
https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/environment/2019/10/11/cost-to-bury-california-fire-prone-power-lines-why-not/3937653002/

My point is that if aerial inspections are the solution to otherwise spending $15k per customer, workplace safety of those providing the solution should not be compromised. (I'm not saying it was in this incident)
Sad and frustrated to hear of two lives lost in what should be an unremarkable survey mission, I hope the cause was unavoidable, ie bird strike or freak mechanical failure.

I'm reminded of the Dec 2014 fixed wing crash during photography of the Sydney to Hobart race where Aussie Ppruners were criticised for insensitivity in discussing the incident before official investigations had begun.
Column inches immediately after an incident can have an effect on political response, which in turn can have a positive effect on workplace safety. A mission to improve the safety of critical infrastructure for the benefit of communities has ended in tragedy.

Mjb

[Lead Balloon]

Well said, mjb.

[Squawk7700]

I'm reminded of the Dec 2014 fixed wing crash during photography of the Sydney to Hobart race where Aussie Ppruners were criticised for insensitivity in discussing the incident before official investigations had begun.
Mjb

I seem to recall that you were the one that was sensitive about this event, but the pictures at the time spoke for themselves.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1618731325_6098ccad7678220f02277058168f72c245f99569.jpeg

[mickjoebill]

I seem to recall that you were the one that was sensitive about this event, but the pictures at the time spoke for themselves.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1618731325_6098ccad7678220f02277058168f72c245f99569.jpeg
IF you are referring to me, I'm puzzled. I received PM to stop commenting on the match race crash by friends/acquatances of the family who were holding onto hope it was not pilot error.

[Squawk7700]

IF you are referring to me, I'm puzzled. I received PM to stop commenting on the match race crash by friends/acquatances of the family who were holding onto hope it was not pilot error.

So you were in the other camp then. I recall it coming up either way.

[kiwi grey]

In the 1990's the cost of burying all the power lines in Australia was put at $50B. https://www.aph.gov.au/sitecore/content/Home/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/Publications_Archive/CIB/CIB9697/97cib11
In 2002 cost of replacing aerial with underground lines in NSW was $7500 per customer, if this was amortised over 15 years I believe it is doable.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/powerlines-may-be-buried-if-you-pay-20020730-gdfhx4.html

Roll on to 2019 in USA is $3m per mile (run buy energy companies rather than community) for distribution lines or $15k per customer
https://www.desertsun.com/story/news/environment/2019/10/11/cost-to-bury-california-fire-prone-power-lines-why-not/3937653002/

My point is that if aerial inspections are the solution to otherwise spending $15k per customer, workplace safety of those providing the solution should not be compromised. (I'm not saying it was in this incident)
Sad and frustrated to hear of two lives lost in what should be an unremarkable survey mission, I hope the cause was unavoidable, ie bird strike or freak mechanical failure.

Mjb

I think your figures are way too cheap.
When I worked for an electricity distribution company twenty years ago, our general rule of thumb for undergrounding overhead distribution lines was "$5k per span plus $5k each end"..
Just my $NZ0.02 worth

[roundsounds]

I'll dribble in a quick question...on the day of the accident I saw on TV about the raging cold front/snow/ strong winds doing a job on SE Oz.
How was the weather in the Sutton area at the time ?
look it up