ATC - Adult Helper

[Toadstool]

Good morning.

I have two years left to serve, by which time I will have completed 37 years in the military. I’m currently a Phase 3 instructor on my OCU but have done Phase 1 training at RAFC Cranwell. I’m looking for information on how to help out at my local ATC Sqn when I retire. What is the age limit, how rewarding is it (I imagine very) and any observations.

Any help would be gratefully received.

[Dan Dare]

As a Civilian Instructor you would merely contact the local Sqn, they are likely to be very keen to get someone with your background. I should think the only hoop to jump through is filling and waiting for the DBS. With your background I expect there would be opportunity/pressure to be uniformed staff and Wing admin tasks could also be encouraged if that’s your thing.

(and thanks to all those ATC CIs and officers who gave up their time to set me on my way in aviation all those years ago!)

[Arclite01]

If you are serving then there is probably a Sqn on your station. I'd find out what night they parade and then pop in for a look around and talk to the CI's and Sqn staff - they will give you all the gen you need.

Arc

[Doobry Firkin]

Just pop along (if it's open) or email your local Sqn.
You'll need to be vetted for PVG (child Safety) but that takes no time and there's paper work to go to Wing / HQ and give you a service number.

I've been a CI for about 5 years now (after one of the kids joined and snitched on me as ex-RAF) and I've become qualified to run the range & carry out Weapon training.

It's very rewarding and keeps you out the pub.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

If I can add that the Civilian Committees are ALWAYS on the lookout for people willing to give up their time to help with such a rewarding cause. Getting uniformed staff is always a challenge, getting civilian instructors equally so but the processes can take time due to background checks. Whilst this is going on I strongly suggest you join the CivCom, you get to be involved, you get to meet the other staff and you get a real feel for the Squadron. Once the paperwork is through for CI, the transition is much smoother.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircadets/find-a-squadron/ will help you find your nearest squadron.

If you get stuck, drop me a PM. I've been a CivCom Chairman for the past 16 years or so. There is nothing more rewarding than seeing these youngsters come through the doors as shy and under-confident teens, and several years later seeing them on TV photographing the government, or leading a helicopter relief effort at some disaster.

edited to supplement something Doobry said. CivCom does not (normally) keep you out of the pub : We hold our 8-weekly meets in our local :-)

[chevvron]

Are squadrons parading again yet?

[muppetofthenorth]

Are squadrons parading again yet?
If they've gone through the (many) hurdles, they should have started either last week or this week.

[Sky Sports]

I should think the only hoop to jump through is filling and waiting for the DBS.

If you think the regulars are bad, standby for hoop jumping on an epic scale. DBS/PVG, SC, BPSS, AVIP, first aid, climatic injuries, child welfare, fire, health and safety, the list goes on. Most of which has to be renewed every year.

You'll join, full of enthusiasm and good ideas, only to be met with the reality check of, "No, you can't do that because of X, Y, and Z rules. But, if you fill in that mountain of paperwork over there, wait 6 months for a part-timer who is considerably less qualified than you, in wing HQ to approve it, you might be good to go".
Every couple of years there is a review to reduce the admin burden of staff, yet we always end up with more paperwork etc.

The chat on the Air Cadet Central forum is that quite a lot of adult members of staff, uniformed and civilian, are using the lockdown as an excuse for 're-evaluating their spare time' and banging out.

[phil9560]

I had some fantastic experiences as an ATC cadet.But the majority of these were on RAF stations at summer camp and were despite the majority of the VR staff not because of.This was in the '80s and wasn't typical of most ATC squadrons at the time.A staff member of your pedigree would have been great addition to our Squadron.I'm sure you'll be welcomed with open arms :)

[478152]

True, many thinking of banging out, thought has crossed my mind.

As for the beaurocracy, yes there is lots. However, how smoothly this goes, and how sensibly the Squadron is run when it comes to paperwork and perceived hurdles and barriers to activities depends entirely on the Staff already there. Some err far too far on the side of caution, and the default position is no if they don't like the look of the requirements, or do not understand, dont want to understand or have been fed wrong info. Others are far more pragmatic, and find ways to make things happen.

Ultimately it is still a great organisation, and does great things for our young people, but be prepared to bite your tongue and humour a few people, as long as you can weed those out, there is lots to achieve that can be very rewarding.

[sharpend]

Depends on the Sqn. I did just the same, but despite driving 20 miles to instruct each week (as programmed), often my student cadets did not turn up. Various feeble excuses, but mainly lacking motivation. I even arranged a super visit to my nearest airfield, aeroplanes, air traffic, helos, lunch etc. Even with a minibus laid on, only 4 out 45 bothered to turn up, What is it with some youths today? I asked one female cadet what she wanted to be after school. 'Don't know', she replied. Why are you in the ATC?, I asked, 'because my boyfriend joined'. Soul destroying. I resigned eventually; I am worth more than that.

[unmanned_droid]

Both uniformed and non-uniform staff in my squadron represented a range of differing people and personality types. They taught me a lot about 'people' in the 5 years I attended.

A couple were amazing, a couple really flawed (one now senior wing officer...) and someone who tried it on with a couple of the lads (jail time and life completely ruined).

I considered going back as staff, but after talking to a few I realised the ATC was nothing like I remembered from the 90s and would probably be nothing but a ballache for me, as an adult. Maybe it was for the staff back then. I know my first CO and his 2IC (married couple) put a great deal of effort and time in to it and I hope they were rewarded in seeing their cadets do well. I owe them for helping me get as many flying courses and opportunities as possible.

The guys I flew with and worked around as a long term staff cadet at an AEF were almost universally great. These were the people I looked up to and wanted to be like.

Just like all forces training staff, if you take part, you have the opportunity to change some peoples lives and the direction that they take, but perhaps, in the cadet forces this is more acute since you're exposing young people from the age of 13 upwards to all kinds of 'adulting' that maybe they're not getting at home or elsewhere. There's still a range of outcomes for the young people, you're not moulding a master race, but for a few it will be extremely beneficial.

[muppetofthenorth]

If you find yourself a good sqn with self starters and a large staff team who have a desire to do things themselves, then you'll be great. If you end up with a unit who relies on higher organisations to arrange things, then you'll be feeling a little bereft.

Having said that, you can still do a lot of good at a unit level.

[BEagle]

sharpend wrote Soul destroying. I resigned eventually; I am worth more than that.

Darned right you are, bluntie old bean! People should pay good money to listen to you talking about your experiences - and I know you'll still have the same boyish enthusiasm you've always had. A real shame that those cadets were so lacking in motivation - I wonder whether the loss of gliding for all those years has ruined the unique appeal of the Air Cadet organisation irreperably?

[bobward]

I had a great time as a cadet in the late 1960's to early 70's. A couple of years after I left as a cadet I went back as a civilian instructor. I ended up serving for over 40 years as CI - AWO- sqdr officer- sqdn commander-sqdn officer-CI. I worked with some great people, and one or two who weren't - just like life. The staff were both civilian, police and a couple of service personnel who gave freely of their time. In the same way, some of the kids (no insult intended, just my affectionate term for them) were, in the main, enthusiastic and well motivated. As was said earlier, to see the quiet reticent cadet arrive on parade night one, then develop through the academic and rank stages to leave years later as a much more confident and rounded character was one of life's great things, and gave me great pride to have been a small part in helping them.

Of course you'll always get some who just turn up and can't be arsed to do anything, that's life I'm afraid. However, for me , the good ones far outnumbered the less good. What caused me to walk away was alluded to above: the mountains of paper we had to fill out once the blunties took over at HQ Air Cadets. When we had to do a risk assessment for the cadet who made the tea, that made me question why I was there. When I left I wrote to the Commandant to explain why I was going, and to express my genuine concerns about how the Corps was progressing or not, due to the gliding and powered flight pauses. I was very surprised that, in less than a week, I received a very courteous letter from Ma'am answering my points. It took my Wing Commander a month to answer, and the letter from my Squadron Civilian Committee must still be in the mail after two years.

Don't let my jaundiced view put you off. The ATC / Air Cadets is still the premier cadet force in the country.

[chevvron]

I had some fantastic experiences as an ATC cadet.But the majority of these were on RAF stations at summer camp and were despite the majority of the VR staff not because of.This was in the '80s and wasn't typical of most ATC squadrons at the time.A staff member of your pedigree would have been great addition to our Squadron.I'm sure you'll be welcomed with open arms :)
I got the definite impression that a few of the officers in my wing only took a commision in order to have an excuse to buy a No 5 and attend 'functions' in the mess at our parent station.
When I took over as OC of a squadron which was about to be disbanded and rescued it, I couldn't have done so without the support I got from an ex RAF JNCO who was already there serving as a CI.

[phil9560]

I got the definite impression that a few of the officers in my wing only took a commision in order to have an excuse to buy a No 5 and attend 'functions' in the mess at our parent station.
When I took over as OC of a squadron which was about to be disbanded and rescued it, I couldn't have done so without the support I got from an ex RAF JNCO who was already there serving as a CI.


One incident I've never forgotten.
We had a summer camp at RAF Valley.Cue loads of excited lads thinking loads of Hawks so bound to be a fair chance of a ride in a jet.Anyway 2 slots became available at very short notice.Unfortunately the bulk of the 2 ATC squadrons were visiting Wylfa power station with maybe half a dozen lads from both squadrons still on the base.So one trip was allocated to each squadron.Unfortunately the only cadet on base from our squadron was too small for the ejection seat and couldn't fly.Guess who took the ride instead ? One of our VR officers.And worse he was heard to say 'well I wasn't letting one of their lads have it '. 'Their lads' meaning the other squadron of cadets.

[chevvron]

Obviously things change at Valley.
Don't know what year you were there Phil, but when I did summer camp in '79, we were told 'adult staff only can go back seat in a Hawk where the instructor normally flies solo on a close formation trip'.
Often with a training station, eg Cranwell 1989, a cadet slot was allocated in a JP for the morning 'weather check' flight but only one per week.

[phil9560]

Didn't want to be too specific about dates as I was commenting on an individual.But it was mid '80s ish.

[Sky Sports]

I think cadets flying in fast jets is pretty much a thing of the past. Its just another one of those activities which is a health and safety nightmare for HQAC, and has subsquently been turned into a paperwork/red tape/ hoop jumping minefield for staff.

The organisation has become so risk adverse, that anything mildly exciting has been banned/made impossible to run. Afterall, no activities = no accidents = medals all round! Doesn't matter that staff and cadet numbers are reducing, at least there is no bad publicity from a sprained ankle!

[charliegolf]

I think cadets flying in fast jets is pretty much a thing of the past. Its just another one of those activities which is a health and safety nightmare for HQAC, and has subsquently been turned into a paperwork/red tape/ hoop jumping minefield for staff.

The organisation has become so risk adverse, that anything mildly exciting has been banned/made impossible to run. Afterall, no activities = no accidents = medals all round! Doesn't matter that staff and cadet numbers are reducing, at least there is no bad publicity from a sprained ankle!

On this specific point...

I bagged a Harrier back seat trip when a Puma crewman at Gutersloh. Yay for me! Looking back- qualified, sensible aircrew bloke gets a 6-7 minute rundown on ejection and off we go.Later, I became an instructor at 6FTS, and taught abandonment drills to baby navs going onto the JP. Which I had never been near! I've looked back often on that trip, the memory of which I treasure, and wonder how I'd have fared if push came to bang. Maybe leave the Cadets to helicopters and Hercs (for a short while longer).

CG

[downsizer]

What I found when I volunteered as a service helper was that staff members with no actual service felt very threatened by those who did. I found that really odd and left as a result....

[charliegolf]

What I found when I volunteered as a service helper was that staff members with no actual service felt very threatened by those who did. I found that really odd and left as a result....

Ha! I wasn't going to say, but...

That's exactly how I felt when I pitched up to show interest in being one. The sqn boss really didn't want a former aircrew member telling his boys and girls actual real boring war stories lol! It went nowhere from there. I should have persisted perhaps.

CG

[bobward]

Sky sports,
I'd agree with your comment about the organisation being risk averse. We had a large town common within yards of our unit HQ and for years used it for night exercises. This all came to an end, as we had nobody qualified as a mountain leader (or other such phrase, sorry the grey cells grow old,) Thus, no nightex. Very sad as the cadets used to love them, all carried out in perfect safety.

I never found out who decided on this - just 'higher authority'.

As for adult uniformed staff, I'll agree that one or two did join for the glamour of wearing the uniform. In my limited experience, the majority were in it to help the cadets florish.

[Toadstool]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I’ve contacted the Sqn where I want to help out. They seem interested. I’ll start out part time as and when I’m available and do full time when I leave the service.

[chevvron]

Didn't want to be too specific about dates as I was commenting on an individual.But it was mid '80s ish.
I find his attitude pretty disgusting, the cadets should always come first when it comes to flights and it shouldn't matter if a cadet who is not one of yours got the flight; only if NO cadets at all could take the flight should adult staff take it instead.
When I allocated the JP flight at Cranwell it was my decision, based on merit (I discussed it with other adult staff) and no it wasn't one of my cadets and yes I would have loved to get a JP in my logbook but as I said, the flight was specifically for a cadet, not adult staff.
That same camp I'd already had a run-in with the Wing PRO who wanted me to fly female cadets first in the Chipmunks so he could take piccies; I said no, those cadets who haven't flown before in anything go first just in case the weather closes in.

[phil9560]

I find his attitude pretty disgusting, the cadets should always come first when it comes to flights and it shouldn't matter if a cadet who is not one of yours got the flight; only if NO cadets at all could take the flight should adult staff take it instead.
When I allocated the JP flight at Cranwell it was my decision, based on merit (I discussed it with other adult staff) and no it wasn't one of my cadets.
Nobody ,staff or cadets , was overly impressed.He left very soon after citing work pressure.

[Sky Sports]

We had a large town common within yards of our unit HQ and for years used it for night exercises. This all came to an end, as we had nobody qualified as a mountain leader (or other such phrase, sorry the grey cells grow old,) Thus, no nightex.
Night navex were banned about 4 years ago because a cadet fell over in the dark and hurt themselves. Around the same time as crab football was banned as having the potential to injure cadets.
IMO, it won't be long before drill is banned as well. It'll only take one cadet to faint on parade, injure themselves on the way down.

[air pig]

What I found in my very short time as a member of a Squadron Civilian Committee (1.5 years) was a basic lack of honesty from some of the uniformed staff as they rose up the promotion chain. Some of them think they are still in the RAF and are running a junior air force where everybody jumps at their rantings and don't actually like it when they are challenged by a civilian.

Conversely there are some very good people at Squadron level and I worked with them as a CI in the 80s and 90s. The cadets came first, flying, shooting etc if it was avaialble they got it, staff just enabled them too get there. Annual camps In the early 80s had cadets working on sections. We had cadets doing nights with the RAF police on patrol, marshalling Hawks at Valley and doing AF and BF checks under close supervision of the lineys, even cadets up out of bed at 05:00 on the dispersals at Waddington stood under Vulcans during start up and see off to go to the US.Going shooting at our local army training camp and booking out after training of SLRs and LMGs from our own now ARC and taking them there in a car at the height of the PIRA threat and teaching PARAs how to use a Lee Enfield .303. cadets at places like Lyneham moving from one aircraft to another to keep flying all day or Finningley in Dominies and Jetstream on nav exs.

Those sort of days will never return, the 'management' would never allow it. They were the good times.

[Old-Duffer]

I joined the ATC at 14 in Feb 58 and moved to adult service at 19. On leaving regular service, I first became a CI and then was recommissioned in the RAFVR(T) at a school CCF. During that time, I was also employed as a Wing Admin Officer for several years.

There were many things wrong with the air cadets but on the plus side there were huge incentives - I never tired of seeing the smile on a cadet's face after their first AEF flight etc. Furthermore, several commandants started to expand what the cadets could do and align some of the stuff with civilian qualifications. Unfortunately, things became too risk averse but having coped with the the LGB in LGBT, I could not accept the 'T' bit, as I viewed this as possibly being complicit in drugs and possible surgery, which was irreversible. Furthermore, I discovered that some 45 % of under 25s who had 'reassigned' their gender, had also attempted suicide. I judged this as indicating much deeper emotional issues and there were practical issues re camps and accommodation. As I could not support the transgender policies, the only honourable thing to do was resign and a few months before I would have received another clasp to my Cadet Forces Medal (CFM), of which I am enormously proud, I did so. The letter I received from HQ Air Cadets acknowledging my service was fairly close to: 'Dear Sir or Madam'.

I believe, nonetheless, that the air cadets is one of the best youth organisations in the country - if not the best. Unfortunately, the politics and risk aversion require some skill to be navigated safely and the complaints procedure is awful, often used to challenge orders with which one does not agree.

Old Duffer

[teeteringhead]

Old-Duffer

You speak - as always - much that is wise and all that is the truth. I agree with much of what you say and admire your stance on a point of principle; it is irrelevant whether or not I agree with you. ("I may not agree with what you say.....")

You will know that I was (and still am) involved with the Air Cadet Organisation; my view is that most problems stem from two not disconnected strands: risk aversion and a lack of connection with the "front line" where the work is done. I can call on many anecdotes illustrating this - as I am sure can you - but will content myself here with four.

1. At the time of the volcanic dust cloud from the Icelandic volcano with the unpronouncable name, there was a pause (before THE PAUSE) in all glider flying, because of concerns on dust effects on aero engines. But that pause included the winch-launched Viking. Er.......

2. DBS clearance is quite correctly required for those dealing with young people, and the requirement was equally correctly extended to Staff Cadets (aged 18+) who are legally adults. However, the DBS requirement is for those who have regular and unsupervised access to young people (my italics). This was in many cases interpreted (don't recall whether it was HQAC policy) as no access at all. So the potential CI, having signed all the paperwork, was (in many cases at least) effectively banned from the Squadron until the clearances arrived - and we know how long that could be. Many didn't bother to wait.

Now my personal favourites

3. The first concerns required staff/cadet ratios for activities. I forget the exact figures, but the requirement was increased if the activity was above a certain height amsl. However, some Squadrons in Wales and Scotland had their bases above that height, and by the letter of the law would have needed to increase the ratios outside their own front door.

4. And finally, one about rank. I knew of a squadron officer in the rank of Flt Lt who was appointed as a Wing Staff Officer (very part time for some activity or other) which carried the (unpaid) rank of Sqn Ldr, with potential embarrassment for the OC when on the Sqn. HQAC's initial solution? "Couldn't they be a Flt Lt on the Squadron and only wear Sqn Ldr rank when on Wing Staff duties.......?" !!!

But all that said, the spirit is still very much there in very many places - and that "first flight grin" still inspires whenever I see it.

[pasta]

2. DBS clearance is quite correctly required for those dealing with young people, and the requirement was equally correctly extended to Staff Cadets (aged 18+) who are legally adults. However, the DBS requirement is for those who have regular and unsupervised access to young people (my italics). This was in many cases interpreted (don't recall whether it was HQAC policy) as no access at all. So the potential CI, having signed all the paperwork, was (in many cases at least) effectively banned from the Squadron until the clearances arrived - and we know how long that could be. Many didn't bother to wait.

This happens all over the place. I need a DBS clearance to be treasurer of my local scout group. When Scout HQ screwed up the paperwork, causing my clearance to be delayed, I received a snotty letter from some senior so-and-so, forbidding me from performing any part of my role, including attending committee meetings (where I suspect I'm the youngest member present) or even signing cheques.

Back on topic, I've just started investigating whether my gliding club can do something with oneof the local ATC squadrons. Feedback from those who've tried it before is along the lines of "Definitely investigate, would be great if we can get some cadets flying, but don't be surprised if you get push-back from someone senior, for unspecified military reasons". Certainly, all the Air Cadets I know at civilian gliding clubs got into the sport through their own/parents' initiative rather than via the ATC; it's effectively a parallel activity for them. That's great, and good on them for having the initiative, but there must be more than a few less-outgoing individuals who are missing out...

[Carcharodon]

Unfortunately, at a Sqn level, your previous aviation experience is actually more of a problem than asset. As has been stated elsewhere in the thread, many see it as a way of getting what they couldn't in the "real" Air Force and so build mini empires. As a former ex regular GD/P I have now been involved in the Air Cadets as initially a RAFVR(T) officer (a "proper" Commission) and now RAFAC (waste of paper) for 33 years. I continue to find that the empire builders (a few officers but mostly the senior non coms) really do not like ex regular officers and continually try to scent mark me. With the general decline in flying over the years it has become the Royal Adventure Training and Drill Force and occassionaly Air Cadets. These Walters (and you can see in their Facebook page that they think they are regular WOs!) do not like the fact that Pilots are taught to think differently from some grunt on a drill square, and the number of arguments I have had about whether I can wear my Forage Cap or leather jacket (which I can under both AP1368 and AP1358C) are too many.
If you are still flying then a much better bet is either the AEF's on the Grob (when they fix their little rudder problem) or the VGS gliders -flying units with the right attitude. If not flying then maybe one of the newish AGS units which use synthetic PTT to prepare the cadets for the future flying.
I will also back up everything that Teeteringhead and Air Pig say. If you go to a Sqn you might hit lucky with the staff, but expect some dislike of your wealth of experience somewhere in the chain!

[Doobry Firkin]

This happens all over the place. I need a DBS clearance to be treasurer of my local scout group. When Scout HQ screwed up the paperwork, causing my clearance to be delayed, I received a snotty letter from some senior so-and-so, forbidding me from performing any part of my role, including attending committee meetings.

I had the opposite with becoming an ATC CI - DBS / PVG came through in under a month but it took Wing HQ over 10 months to sort out my paperwork to get me a Service Number and 'officially' be on the books. Then they had the neck to backdate it all about 9 months then give me grief for not having carried out training I couldn't do until everything was rubber stamped but was supposed to be done within 3 months of everything being sorted - one quick email to the office waller involved and a few people above them (all the way to regional commandant) let them know exactly what I thought. Fortunately my OC is great and he waded in as well and told them where to go.

I've also had someone wo was a Sqn OC shout at me as a CI in a hangar in front of Cadets and other staff because my OC requested changes to a pick up route for the bus for an activity and there were problems as a result, as if it was all my fault that WG HQ messed up - I quickly defaulted back into an Ex-SNCO with 23 years in the real air force and put them back in their box where they stood.

Once in and everything running it's enjoyable and good seeing the cadets grow and expand their experiences, the BS that comes with it all can get a bit much at times.

[air pig]

I've also had someone wo was a Sqn OC shout at me as a CI in a hangar in front of Cadets and other staff because my OC requested changes to a pick up route for the bus for an activity and there were problems as a result, as if it was all my fault that WG HQ messed up - I quickly defaulted back into an Ex-SNCO with 23 years in the real air force and put them back in their box where they stood

Was it one of those very low voiced one sided conversations with just a hint of menace, that senior NCOs ex or otherwise can deliver in spades to officers, in particular those who overstep the mark.

[212man]

Some insights here that probably point to some individuals' motivations: https://forum.aircadetcentral.net/t/no-more-salutes/4741 (Concern about whether RAFAC Officers should be saluted or not!)