France to ban internal short haul?

[Asturias56]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56716708French lawmakers have moved to ban short-haul internal flights where train alternatives exist, in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.

Over the weekend, lawmakers voted in favour of a bill to end routes where the same journey could be made by train in under two-and-a-half hours.

Connecting flights will not be affected, however. The planned measures will face a further vote in the Senate before becoming law. Airlines around the world have been severely impacted by the coronavirus pandemic, with website Flightradar24 reporting that the number of flights last year were down almost 42% from 2019. The measures could affect travel between Paris and cities including Nantes, Lyon and Bordeaux.

But the French government had faced calls to introduce for even stricter rules on domestic flights. France's Citizens' Convention on Climate, which was created by President Emmanuel Macron in 2019 and included 150 members of the public, had proposed scrapping plane journeys where train journeys of under four hours existed. Saturday's vote came days after the French government more than doubled its stake in Air France. The government had previously offered €7bn ($8.3bn, £6bn) in loans to help the airline weather the pandemic, although France's economy minister said at the time the funding was dependent on the airline scrapping some of its domestic flights (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52527517).

This is not the first time similar measures have been introduced. Last year, Austrian Airlines replaced a flight route between the capital Vienna and the city of Salzburg with an increased train service, after receiving a government bailout with provisions to cut its carbon footprint.

[Pistonprop]

Since connecting flights are not affected I don't really see what the fuss is all about. Are there really that many who travel point to point domestically by air to destinations which are 2.5 hours or less by train? I'm guessing but I would estimate it to be a relatively small minority.

[davidjohnson6]

Those flights can be useful if travelling from regional France to CDG to self-connect to a flight which doesn't interline with a suitable schedule (or doesn't interline at sensible prices) with Air France.

As an example, trying to combine Air France and Easyjet on the same ticket is not worth trying. However, 2 separate (modestly priced) tickets, and it's sometimes worthwhile. Connecting from somewhere like Montparnasse across Paris to CDG by metro / RER is a pain

[Alsacienne]

Strasbourg City to Paris CDG via train is more complicated than a short feeder flight ... even if the train has an AF flight number ... (personal experience!)

[DaveReidUK]

Before the pandemic, Orly-Toulouse had 20+ return flights per day.

[Dmitri]

ORY-TLS is not concerned by those measures. There is no train service Paris-Toulouse in under 2.5 hours.

[anothertyke]

How will connecting flights not be affected? Surely on a route like Nantes to CDG there will be p to p travellers sitting next to interlining. Just like Newcastle-LHR. If your business has a branch in Woking or your mum lives in Staines, it's useful. Is the proposal actually that you can't buy a p to p ticket but the flights will continue?

[davidjohnson6]

Is the proposal actually that you can't buy a p to p ticket but the flights will continue?

Yes, seems so

[Pistonprop]

"If your business has a branch in Woking or your mum lives in Staines, it's useful."

Fully agree, but that is covered by my "relatively small minority".

[Asturias56]

can't see how they "not affect connecting flights" would work either - you're not going to run services just for connectors

I suspect its mis translated

2.5hours by TGV - that's about 400km including starting and stopping? So still flights to the deep South and SW

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1031x1002/2021_04_12_171540_dd43d3dc42ec0d2332a1fa4b5ac1ff6a6478002f.j pg

[dlcmdrx]

Madness. There are several lobbies lately which too much power, they need to be stopped.

[Asturias56]

Here are some train times....... Major Routes from Paris

All train times given here are the shortest time on a direct route. You can continue on to other cities from all these destinations.

TGV Nord from Paris Gare du Nord. Connects to the north of France, to Lille (https://www.tripsavvy.com/guide-to-lille-in-north-france-1517635), and Eurostar (https://www.tripsavvy.com/eurostar-between-london-paris-and-lille-1517908) to London, Lille, and Brussels.


Paris to Lille - 59 minutes
Paris to Dunkerque - 1 hour 37 minutes

TGV Est from Paris Gare de l’Est. Connects to the east of France, one of the new regions now called Grand Est (https://www.tripsavvy.com/the-new-regions-of-france-1517841), serving destinations like Reims, Metz (visit the great Pompidou Metz Museum (https://www.tripsavvy.com/most-visited-sites-in-france-1517875)), Nancy, Strasbourg, Luxembourg and beyond.


Paris to Reims (https://www.tripsavvy.com/guide-to-reims-in-champagne-1517305) - 48 minutes
Paris to Metz - 1 hour 27 minutes
Paris to Nancy – 1 hour 31 minutes
Paris to Strasbourg (https://www.tripsavvy.com/strasbourg-france-and-germany-collide-1517703) – 2 hours 18 minutes

TGV Sud-Est from Paris Gare de Lyon. Connects to the south and east of France.


Paris to Lyon (https://www.tripsavvy.com/pictures-of-lyon-4123516) - 1hr 59 minutes
Paris to Dijon - 1hr 37 minutes

TGV Alpes from Paris Gare de Lyon. Connects to the east of France and in winter is particularly useful for skiers (https://www.tripsavvy.com/paris-stop-over-rail-journeys-to-alps-4119332), going on to Alpine resorts like Courchevel (https://www.tripsavvy.com/glamorous-ski-resort-of-courchevel-1517848).


Paris to Grenoble - 3 hours 2 minutes
Paris to Annecy - 3 hours 48 minutes
Paris to Chambéry - 2 hours 50 minutes

TGV Méditerranée from Paris Gare de Lyon. Connects to Provence (https://www.tripsavvy.com/guide-for-provence-southern-france-1517796) and the Cote d'Azur.


Paris to Marseille (https://www.tripsavvy.com/guide-to-marseille-city-renewed-1517956) - 3 hours 25 minutes
Paris to Avignon (https://www.tripsavvy.com/top-attractions-in-avignon-1517711) - 3 hours 36 minutes
Paris to Aix-en-Provence (https://www.tripsavvy.com/provence-france-picture-gallery-1517836) - 3 hours 8 minutes
Paris to Nice (https://www.tripsavvy.com/nice-travel-guide-and-city-guide-1517608) - 5 hours 38 minutes
Paris to Nimes (https://www.tripsavvy.com/guide-to-nimes-south-of-france-4031374) – 2 hours 59 minutes

TGV Atlantique from Paris Gare Montparnasse. Connects to the south and the west of France.


Paris to Tours (https://www.tripsavvy.com/attractions-in-the-loire-valley-1517293) – 1 hour 49 minutes
Paris to Bordeaux (https://www.tripsavvy.com/top-things-to-do-in-bordeaux-france-1517144) – 2 hours 14 minutes
Paris to Toulouse (https://www.tripsavvy.com/toulouse-travel-guide-1517704) – 5 hours 19 minutes
Paris to Pau (https://www.tripsavvy.com/pau-france-info-1517697) – 4 hours 9 minutes
Paris to Lourdes (https://www.tripsavvy.com/lourdes-france-info-1517693) – 4 hours 36 minutes
Paris to Le Mans – 55 minutes
Paris to Rennes – 1 hour 25 minutes
Paris to Nantes (https://www.tripsavvy.com/nantes-france-travel-guide-1508682) – 1 hours 56 minutes

[OldLurker]

Surely the guide should be comparative travel times for real journeys.
For example, Paris to Nice. How long does it take, on average (not fastest achievable by racing) to get from Notre-Dame to Place Masséna by public transport (1) by TGV, (2) by air, including travel time to station/airport, check-in, security, sitting around waiting to board, boarding, gate-to-gate time of train or plane, getting out of station/airport, travel time to destination? I don't know, but I'd bet on the TGV winning.

[Asturias56]

You are of course correct but they can't calculate an infinite number of journey options. I presume the idea was you spend 45 minutes pre flight and 15 post landing absolute minimum when flying. 2.5 hours by TGV is about 400 kms so say an hour in the plane including taxying etc. So that's an absolute minimum of 2 hours by air and likely more like 2.5 hours - so just set the limit at 2.5 hours by train

You'll note the Citizens' Convention on Climate suggested 4 hours - which is what I'd think is closer to reality for any centre to centre trip.

If they do it I could see it spreading across Europe

[Asturias56]

dlcmdrx

That's it - once you decide to start cutting emissions it starts to hurt I'm afraid. This is just the start - the "low hanging fruit"

[DaveReidUK]

anothertyke

By "connecting flights" ("trajets en correspondance") they presumably mean multi-leg ones, as opposed to a flight that starts and ends within France.

[Bindair Dundat]

Negan

Couldn’t agree more. There are real tangible solutions to climate change and a ton of low hanging fruit to make huge impact we never talk about.
Activists have completely damaged the narrative and polarized the debate so completely that politicians make stupid decisions.

[WHBM]

As I understand it the French railway unions, on the odd occasion when they are not on strike, have been behind this, strongarming their associates in government.

[anothertyke]

So what's the modelled effect on the French air sector carbon budget? It must be three fifths of two ninths of **** ***.

[Hamsterminator]

Bindair Dundat

Also agreed. I like to think of myself as someone who takes the climate change thing reasonably seriously, but the topic has been adopted by the green peace contingent as a way of targeting the elite and the establishment, totally missing the point that most domestic travellers aren’t in that category.

Im also surprised that France of all countries is trying to enforce change by blanket ban rather than taxation or similar. It doesn’t seem very Libertarian?

Having said that, if it is indeed the case that only a select few passengers will be affected then this is perhaps just a symbolic change to make it look like the government is “tackling the issue” regardless of the fact it will barely scratch their emissions per capita.

[Tartiflette Fan]

Hamsterminator

The number of passengers involved is about 800 000 annuallly per Le Figaro.

[eagle21]

BOD airport would be the most affected, but in reality BA, LH, KLM, IB, will increase their flights there and create the extra connecting capacity. If anything this measure will create jobs outside France.

[Alsacienne]

Thankfully EZY have domestic flights such as BSL-BOD ... remembering that BSL is a 'shared' airport with MLH!

Oh and while we're listing Paris Gare de l'Est to the Grand Est region, these wonderful TGVs and Ouigo trains are plagued by speed restrictions often because of previously derailed rolling stock. Don't believe all you read as to the city-to-city timings in this part of the world.

[Cyberhacker]

Asturias56

France has quite a good TGV network... Germany has the ICE, not forgetting the Thalys etc - their main airports are also on the TGV/ICE network (stand fast Brandenburg).

In the UK, this would have minimal effect... two-and-a-half hours by train from Heathrow doesn't get you very far.

LHR to MAN - just over four hours (three changes)
LHR to BHX - two-and-three-quarter hours (three changes!)

Never mind the cost...

[IBE8720]

Pistonprop

If that is so, then why let market forces dictate the travel requirememt?
Is it going to effect private aircraft as well? Are the rich and famous going to have walk into Gard de Nord and sit next me on the train?

FYI, the electricity that is required to run the trains, is NOT generated by trees, or thin air. It comes from a power plant that emits CO2! This is where the electric car argument falls apart, when examined more closely.
Pointing the finger at the aviation industry for carbon emissions is just political grandstanding to appeal to the uneducated masses. Aviation would have to be one of the most innovative industries in the world. Except when the SID or STAR goes over some rich pr!cks house. Then we need to divert the procedure to avoid their sensitive ears.

Someone at some stage needs to stand up to this lunatic agenda

edit: HA! I see LHR-CDG would fall within the time limit. Of course exempt as it is an international flight. How convenient, and what perfect example of how idiotic, and ineffectual the policy will be.

[Cyberhacker]

IBE8720

Unlikely...

CDG - Lille : one-and-a-half hours
Lille - StPan : one-and-a-half hours
StPan - LHR : one hour

Four hours, minimum, before throwing in long connections...

[DaveReidUK]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/472x291/sncf_d7109b3968662dceaaa35a772c2482056257c375.jpg

[highflyer40]

Cyberhacker

You are way off on your numbers. There are dozens of daily direct services between London and Manchester. Same for Birmingham. London - Manchester is 2 hrs 9 min. You can get from London to Edinburgh in 4.5 hours direct.

[IBE8720]

Cyberhacker

What are you talking about?

[DaveReidUK]

highflyer40

You are way off on your numbers. There are dozens of daily direct services between London and Manchester. Same for Birmingham. London - Manchester is 2 hrs 9 min. You can get from London to Edinburgh in 4.5 hours direct.[/QUOTE]

The numbers are correct for travel from airport to airport by train.

Correct, but irrelevant.

[davidjohnson6]

To clarify.... the 2h30 cut-off being applied in France, refers to travel between city centre and city centre. Thus, the equivalent for the UK on London-Manchester is not how long it takes to travel from Heathrow to Manchester airport... but how long it would take to travel by train from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly

[WHBM]

If the French government would concentrate more on aspects of their TGV trains that could make them more valuable, such as the ability to go through Gare du Nord station without having your pocket picked, it might be a better use of their time.

[Asturias56]

It used to be like that but over the past few years its a lot better

[Asturias56]

For the UK I'd guess the main change would be Manchester - London, then Leeds Bradford and Teesside - hardly a major issue

[wiggy]

davidjohnson6

Yep...Bordeaux (centre) to Paris (centre) the TGV is the obvious choice, has been ever since the link opened.

As eagle21 pointed out:

BOD airport would be the most affected, but in reality BA, LH, KLM, IB, will increase their flights there and create the extra connecting capacity. If anything this measure will create jobs outside France.

Agreed - Certainly BA seems to have let BOD fall off it's radar over the last few years but you'd hope BA might have a look at the possibilities/financial side of nicking some traffic off AF and others by actually serving BOD with increased frequency, certainly once long haul travel recovers....then again it's BA.

[LGS6753]

If Air France are clever (I did say if), surely they would put on connecting flights via AMS. and their KLM partners rather than PAR.

[ZULUBOY]

Asturias56

And it is a good start

[DaveReidUK]

LGS6753

That would be one good way to make sure the train was quicker than flying.

[highflyer40]

They already do. As the two airlines are in essence one airline, a KLM ticket or AF ticket means about the same to
either.

[Trim Stab]

Air France will also likely lose a bit of long haul traffic as travellers from regional France will not be too keen to get TGV/Bus with luggage to CDG or Orly to get a long hauler. Easier just to use Lufthansa, BA, Swiss etc and fly all the way from their regional airport.

[highflyer40]

Except if you read the article connecting flights aren’t affected. Just point to point.

[Asturias56]

Lets stay on topic if we can...............................

I can't see it having any significant affect on airline sin France TBH

[wiggy]

Except if you read the article connecting flights aren’t affected. Just point to point.

If that's really the plan it's going to interesting to see how/if that will be policed, and TBH in reality I can't see AF running flights (well, not many) between ORY and Nantes, Bordeaux and Lyon solely for connecting passengers.

https://www.linternaute.com/voyage/pratique/1373763-air-france-la-compagnie-devoile-ses-nouvelles-liaisons-pour-l-ete/

[DaveReidUK]

I think the distinction being made is between O&D flights and those continuing to somewhere else, so for example a theoretical ORY-BOD-MAD flight would be exempt.

If the exemption were for any flight that could be carrying passengers who are connecting at the destination, then that would effectively give carriers carte blanche (or whatever the French equivalent is) to fly pretty well any internal route.

[Pistonprop]

My bet wiggy is that you may find that a significant percentage (+/- 80%) of the past loads have been connecting pax.

[Asturias56]

I've been looking for the actual text to see how they define "connecting flights" but no luck so far

[Asturias56]

Article 36 : Interdiction des vols réguliers en cas d’alternative en train d’une durée de moins de deux heures trente

Fixation, par décret en Conseil d’État des niveaux d’émission de CO2 par passager et par kilomètre transporté permettant de considérer qu’un vol est décarboné [3147 de M. Zulesi (LaREM) rapporteur].
Rapport du Gouvernement au Parlement sur la possibilité d’étendre le dispositif d’interdiction aux services aériens de fret entre Paris–Charles-de-Gaulle et les métropoles situées à moins de 2 h 30 en train [identiques 4316 de M. Fugit (LaREM) sous amendé par le 5384 et 5383 de M. Zulesi (LaREM) rapporteur, et 4712 de M. Pupponi (Dem)

Article 36: Prohibition of regular flights in the event of an alternative train lasting less than two and a half hours Fixing, by decree of the Council of State, of CO2 emission levels per passenger and per kilometer transported, allowing a flight to be considered carbon-free [3147 by Mr. Zulesi (LaREM) rapporteur]. Report from the Government to Parliament on the possibility of extending the prohibition system to air freight services between Paris – Charles-de-Gaulle and the metropolises located less than 2 hours 30 minutes by train [identical 4316 to M. Fugit (LaREM ) as amended by 5384 and 5383 from Mr. Zulesi (LaREM) rapporteur, and 4712 from Mr. Pupponi (Dem)].

I've looked at some of the Amendments and they seem to envisage adding passengers to the restrictions - can't see any definition of "connecting flights"

[Asturias56]

It looks like the actual definitions will be up to the Council of State -"when the air services mainly provide the transport of connecting passengers" is the critical wording I think


Article 36 I. - Article L. 6412-3 of the Transport Code is amended as follows: 1 ° At the beginning, the words: "I. -" are added; 2 ° A II worded as follows is added: “II. - Are prohibited, on the basis of Article 20 of Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 September 2008 cited above, the regular public air transport services of passengers concerning all air links to the 'Inside French territory, the journey is also provided on the national rail network without a connection and by several daily connections of less than two and a half hours. "A decree in Council of State specifies the conditions of application of the first paragraph of this II, in particular the characteristics of the railway links concerned, which must ensure a sufficient service, and the methods according to which it can be derogated from this prohibition when the air services mainly provide the transport of connecting passengers or can be regarded as providing low-carbon air transport. It specifies the levels of carbon dioxide emissions per passenger carried per kilometer that aircraft must reach to be considered carbon-free. "The application of this ban gives rise to an assessment after a period of three years from its entry into force. " I a (new). - Within one year of the promulgation of this law, the Government presents to Parliament a report on the possibility of extending the system mentioned in I to freight flights between Paris-Charles de Gaulle airport and metropolitan areas located less than two and a half hours by train, in order to provide rail courier services as an alternative to air and road transport. II. - This article comes into force on the last Sunday in March of the year following that of the promulgation of the law.

[bekolblockage]

Lets stay on topic if we can...............................

I can't see it having any significant affect on airline sin France TBH

If that is true, then how does this achieve the objective?

[KayPam]

Asturias56

Actually it's not mistranslated.
It's just that politicians themselves (at least here) don't understand airline economics.
So they made an amalgam between connecting flights and flights to CDG (which is the main hub, as you know), and local/domestic flights and flights to ORY (which is the secondary hub, with many connecting flights to french overseas territories)

So you can still book a ticket from Bordeaux to Paris provided you choose CDG. You can book a ticket from Bordeaux to La Réunion but if your long haul flights departs from Orly you will have to take a train to a city called Massy, 15 minutes away from Orly by cab, and make a self connection with a taxi or something.. I don't know if they're planning anything serious.

Only three destinations are concerned for Air France : Orly to Bordeaux, Lyon, and Nantes. Maybe there are some HOP lines affected as well, but Air France working hand in hand with the government I think will not mourn them, as they want to replace HOP with transavia, which is a true low cost; HOP is the regional subsidiary, it was made by joining 3 previous regional airlines, but instead of merging them, they added a fourth entity to manage the three previous ones. So they just piled up the costs.

Aviation faces many challenge as of now in France.
Some environmentalists and the left party (a bit more left than left but not so extreme) want to increase the limit to up to 4 hours or 4.5 hours by train. They say this would include Paris to Nice, but the shortest train travel is 5h50min so this proves that they really don't know what they're talking about. But it would include Toulouse and Marseille which are two huge domestic lines, as well as montpellier, maybe Brest
The mayor of a small city started a nationwide controversy after saying that children should forget their aviation dreams.
The mayor of another small city refused its airshow to continue.
They closed an airstrip (before covid) in the mountains that was very useful and had much mountain flying activity. They also want to limit mountain flying around the Mont Blanc due to noise pollution..
The mayor of Lyon refused the national aerobatics squadron to continue flying over their city for airshows.
Aerial advertising which had some presence over our beaches was made illegal.

... Who knows what's next ?
It's a bit worrying.
Surely the guide should be comparative travel times for real journeys.
For example, Paris to Nice. How long does it take, on average (not fastest achievable by racing) to get from Notre-Dame to Place Masséna by public transport (1) by TGV, (2) by air, including travel time to station/airport, check-in, security, sitting around waiting to board, boarding, gate-to-gate time of train or plane, getting out of station/airport, travel time to destination? I don't know, but I'd bet on the TGV winning.
This is not a good metric. There are 12 million people in Paris. Of which only 2 million, about 16%, live inside Paris center. Sort of the same situation in most cities (except Nice due to peculiar geography between sea and mountain)
For Nice it certainly does not make the TGV win, 5h40 to 6 hours vs 1h20 by plane, even if you add very generous times for boarding. You may add 3 hours to the airplane time and 1 hour to the train time, so this would make about 7h vs 4h20.
There is however a match for destinations like Marseille, 4 hours by TGV, 4 hours by plane. If you're a frequent flyer used to arriving late at the airport, and/or if you live closer to an airport than a station, plane wins, if you're closer to the station and/or are not used to flying, TGV wins.

In practise, the TGV wins over the airplane when the train time becomes lower than 2h30 approximately. Except at Bordeaux because there were a lot of companies with sites just close to Mérignac airport and just close to Orly airport. So for them BOD-ORY was perfect.
AF can compete with the TGV when there is at least 2h30 of train time, easyjet can do so when there is at least 4.5 hours of train time.

[KayPam]

BOD airport would be the most affected, but in reality BA, LH, KLM, IB, will increase their flights there and create the extra connecting capacity. If anything this measure will create jobs outside France.
Other problems :
Orly is an airport limited by its slots.
Cancel a flight with the shorter flight time, that frees up a spot.
Free up a spot, another flight can take place. Since the cancelled flight was the shortest, and short flights are forbidden, mandatorily a longer flight will take place.
Now Orly instead of having a short flight has a long flight.
A long flight pollutes more than a short flight.

Suppose there was a CDG to XXX flight with some airlines, and some low cost airlines wanted to get into this market, but couldn't because there was too much competition.
Now a low cost airline can start a flight from XXX to ORY, with a competitive advantage that allows them to take this risk.
The lines to CDG are well established and they may lose some revenue per seat but they will continue to operate.
You have extended the market from Paris to XXX.

This measure is totally counterproductive.

So, either our politicians are stupid, either they are serving someone else's agendas. Be it to satisfy the green party or any other thing...


If that is so, then why let market forces dictate the travel requirememt?
Is it going to effect private aircraft as well? Are the rich and famous going to have walk into Gard de Nord and sit next me on the train?

FYI, the electricity that is required to run the trains, is NOT generated by trees, or thin air. It comes from a power plant that emits CO2! .
Of course not, the rich and famous have a private jet from Le Bourget or Toussus. Are you crazy, haha ?

In France powerplants are still mainly nuclear, so they pollute a bit less, and criticizing the train's emissions is harder. You need to take into account more advanced concepts like marginal consumption or infrastructure construction emissions.
But France is closing nuclear capacity to replace it with renewable and fossil, so it's still stupid !
If Air France are clever (I did say if), surely they would put on connecting flights via AMS. and their KLM partners rather than PAR.
Actually the union saw that coming and put in place an agreement that requires AF to keep a percentage of activity at AF and not KLM. But they struggle to uphold it.

[Asturias56]

Thanks KAYPAM for an in-country perspective

Of course the TGV wins over air even when it takes lightly longer- no security , no early check-in, no wait for bags - and the seating is better and you can move around. I'd always use the TGV Paris - Marseilles but agree that to Nice or the south-central the plane wins

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I much prefer the train anyway.
NO 'Security' bag search (normally - when I have travelled in France anyway), get out of your seat and go for a walk when you want to, have a beer or two in the bar, or numerous coffees if that's your style, enjoy the scenery - you can actually see it thru the BIG window....AND.....
Depart and Arrive - in the MIDDLE of town..!

What's the fuss..?

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Wouldn’t biofuels solve this ?
Plus a carbon tax to make them competitive?
Otherwise aviation has no future.

[Asturias56]

I think they'll offer a dispensation for electric powered aircraft.. Nice niche market - 2.5 hours all over land sounds just about right

[fdcg27]

Good thing that the Mercure is long since retired, LOL!