JP233

[typerated]

Wondering what runway was used for the JP233 trial?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAGmDqH4c-8
Presumably West Freugh / Luce Bay?

[Radley]

Think that the JP233 was trialed on the roads around my county, and they still haven’t repaired them!😟

[ORAC]

“The first JP233 test flight was flown over the range at West Freugh, U.K., on February 23, 1982, using a British Aerospace flight trials Tornado (ZA354/BS07). Trials continued throughout 1983 with the release of the munitions, initially from height, and then at lower levels, including against a prepared surface to confirm its concrete-busting performance.”

[Duchess_Driver]

Not knowing too much about the 233, I’m presuming the parachute was to retard it’s horizontal trajectory so it would remain “over the area” and to give it a more vertical impact.

One would have thought a few more inches of penetration given by an unretarded vertical may have been beneficial against the concrete...

out of curiosity - (haven’t looked) - are there any publicly available BDAs from its use?

[RHINO]

Whilst the weapon worked as advertised....operationally it was a complete flop.

[ORAC]

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/199874-jp233.html

[alfaman]

Whilst the weapon worked as advertised....operationally it was a complete flop.
If it worked "as advertised", in what way was it a "complete flop"?

[Willard Whyte]

If it worked "as advertised", in what way was it a "complete flop"?

Perhaps the need to fly directly over a heavily defended target meant its utility was limited.

[1.3VStall]

The first live drop from an RAF aircraft, flown by an RAF crew, was out of Duke Field (a satellite of Eglin AFB) FL in the Spring of 1986. Mike Rondot did a painting of the event.

[Peter G-W]

My memory from an OEU presentation at Laarbruch in 1986 is that no full operational drops were trialled in that the dispensers were always retained at the end of each drop. This was due concerns about safe separation of the empty dispensers at operational speeds and heights. Thus they were jettisoned at 250 kts in 25 wing on a second pass. Therefore the first full operational trial was carried out on the first night of Desert Storm.

No aircraft were lost dropping JP233 so to call it useless or tactically ineffective is just plainly incorrect. One aircraft was lost post-target but this was mostly likely a CFIT event. There were occurrences of nav computer reversions to a degraded (Doppler SAHR) mode at the end of a JP233 run which had an immediate effect on the accuracy and latency of the HUD symbology. Thus bunting down by night in reaction to the ballooning effect of losing over 5 tonnes of mass from the aircraft over a few seconds was particularly risky.

In terms of weapons effects, I think they were reduced somewhat by the soft sand beneath the Iraqi runways as the heave effect of the secondary warhead relied upon a good dense subsoil to direct the blast.

[ORAC]

Main problem, IIRC, was that they were designed to deny single runway WP runways in Eastern Europe, whilst Iraqi airfields were/are enormous with up to nine main runways and taxiways suitable for aircraft operations. Meaning denying a MOS was almost impossible - and every airfield would have had to be revisited almost daily to keep the suppressed.

[Pontius Navigator]

A more profitable target was, I believe, the HAS access tracks. Stop them leaving their HAS then pick them off one by one.

We visited Huntings in 1974 when on the WEC and asked about a standoff capability. They paled as they thought it might be cancelled.

[pr00ne]

Pontius Navigator

Interesting. The original JP233 programme was a joint effort between the UK and the USA, to arm Tornado GR1 and USAF F-111's various. As originally specced it WAS powered, to be a stand off weapon. When that was changed to free fall the US pulled out.

[typerated]

Pontius Navigator

Interesting. The original JP233 programme was a joint effort between the UK and the USA, to arm Tornado GR1 and USAF F-111's various. As originally specced it WAS powered, to be a stand off weapon. When that was changed to free fall the US pulled out.

Then the USAF bought the French Durandal runway cratering bomb - Heyford F-111E's used them in Desert Storm

[typerated]

Perhaps the need to fly directly over a heavily defended target meant its utility was limited.

It always seemed easy to defeat - Tethered balloons trailing cables ready to partly set free on Air Attack Red - have one of these at the end of every straight bit of concrete

[just another jocky]

It always seemed easy to defeat - Tethered balloons trailing cables ready to partly set free on Air Attack Red - have one of these at the end of every straight bit of concrete

Very good point, but most of the operational drops were flown across the runways/taxiways/HAS access.

Not sure I'd want to take-off from or land at an airfield with a lighter than air blimp at either end of the runway mind you.

[Slow Biker]

Most trial/surveillance drops were against the Hard Target at West Freugh, which, supposedly, was laid to WP spec. Only SG357 munitions were dropped and the dispenser retained on the ac. AFAIK no HB876 mines were dropped at West Freugh, the range not being suitable for such munitions; trials and surveillance of the 876 were conducted on Eglin ranges.
The SG357 was very effective on the target, creating a camouflet and heave around the edge. Clearance of ux SG357s either complete or ux secondaries was a long and complicated job, involving an RC Hymac in 3 roles - concrete breaking, excavating and 'grabbing'; two RC EOD wheelbarrows and an RC sawbench.
In late '91 I was involved in a UN visit to Iraqi airbase H2, I was not able to get to the runways to see any results of JP233 - that was not my brief, but the airfield was rendered unusable by bombing: HAS doors blown off their hinges and the 'contents' a plie of molten metal, even the gym took a hit. There were ux cluster bomblets still laying in the gutters. One thing that struck me was the preparedness, not that it did much good, air raid shelters were plentiful and well stocked with food and medical supplies, in stark contrast to those in the UK and RAFG.

[John Rogers]

TOEU did live drop trials at Eglin AFB in '86 and '88 if I recall correctly.

[John Rogers]

JP233 was specifically requested by the US for DS. Origianally allied forces wre deployed directly opposite Kuwait to deter Iraqi forces from pressing into Saudi. However, for the ground offensive Gen Shwarzkopf was redploying the Army to the W to enter Iraq and carry out the hook to cut off the Iraqi forces in Kuwait. But he needed to do the redeployment quickly and in secret and to achieve that he needed to keep the Iraqi AF on the ground, and you don't do that by bombing HAS's one by one. So Tornado+JP233 was specifically requested and carried out the job as tasked - Iraqi sortie rates fell by c70% after first night and stayed that way.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Then the USAF bought the French Durandal runway cratering bomb - Heyford F-111E's used them in Desert Storm

This guy said they they were asked to do Durandal but declined!

https://youtu.be/0GhMLFB4wfA?t=3556

[57mm]

What fascinated me were the special to type loaders, IIRC in the form of hovercraft, which allowed for the limited ground clearance under the fuselage......

[RAFEngO74to09]

What fascinated me were the special to type loaders, IIRC in the form of hovercraft, which allowed for the limited ground clearance under the fuselage......

The Type Z Weapon Loader

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1439/vhddmf_333e9b955b9e29502d084bdfcb9c9b08fc379113.jpg

[teej013]

The infamous "Z" Loader,probably a good idea on paper, or a nice clean smooth floor, but in the real world of uneven, rutted and sand encrusted concrete on the HAS and sun shelter floors of Dharhran, they were utterly useless. Only ever used it in the sand storm generator mode the once, after that I just lugged it around on the castors.

The JP233 was also fairly easy to defeat, simply by having any peasant with a gun to fire it into the air over the airfield and approaches and let the crews fly through it...
Teej...

[MG]

The JP233 was also fairly easy to defeat, simply by having any peasant with a gun to fire it into the air over the airfield and approaches and let the crews fly through it...
Teej...
Didn't stop us. If you were a Dharhan man, you will, of course know that.

[John Nichol]

There are a lot of myths & misconceptions kicking around about the employment and effects of the JP233 in GW1, and some of the losses experienced during those ops.
Although I (clearly) wasn't around at the time, over the last 12 months I've been speaking to many of the crews involved in the first 3 nights of JP233 ops back in Jan 1991 for my new book (shameless plug) and - unless of course you were there - you might be surprised at the recollections. Truly astonishing feats of combat aviation.
I've also got a VHS video taken at one of the Iraqi sites a couple of days after the ceasefire showing some of the damage and repairs. And a couple of interesting US satellite images too; unseen at the time I understand. But as I say, I can't confirm as was otherwise engaged.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/355x533/tornado_hb_cover_small_c3197fe92f3e71ddf9b7b62d58c5f9c8b5702 d2f.jpg

[57mm]

Pre-ordered just now, John, you rascal! 👍

[just another jocky]

Pre-ordered just now, John, you rascal! 👍

Same here.

John, you must owe me a beer by now! Next Feb maybe? ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

.....for the ground offensive Gen Shwarzkopf was redploying the Army to the W to enter Iraq and carry out the hook to cut off the Iraqi forces in Kuwait. But he needed to do the redeployment quickly and in secret and to achieve that he needed to keep the Iraqi AF on the ground,.

Are you sure about that? I thought the redeployment was in advance of any action.

I remember watching TV broadcasts from 'somewhere in the desert but I can't tell you where'. The idiot broadcaster (BBC) was grinning like a Cheshire cat in front of a shop with the town name on it and Hercs were using the runway behind him. It could have been IRAFHA but that is much a guess.

Once the air offensive began then the media switched their focus.

[NIREP reader]

Same here.

John, you must owe me a beer by now! Next Feb maybe? ;)

and again.

[NIREP reader]

There are a lot of myths & misconceptions kicking around about the employment and effects of the JP233 in GW1, and some of the losses experienced during those ops.
Although I (clearly) wasn't around at the time, over the last 12 months I've been speaking to many of the crews involved in the first 3 nights of JP233 ops back in Jan 1991 for my new book (shameless plug) and - unless of course you were there - you might be surprised at the recollections. Truly astonishing feats of combat aviation.
I've also got a VHS video taken at one of the Iraqi sites a couple of days after the ceasefire showing some of the damage and repairs. And a couple of interesting US satellite images too; unseen at the time I understand. But as I say, I can't confirm as was otherwise engaged.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/355x533/tornado_hb_cover_small_c3197fe92f3e71ddf9b7b62d58c5f9c8b5702 d2f.jpg

Just had an email from Waterstones that my pre-order is ready to collect. Looking forward to this one.

[John Nichol]

Hope you enjoy it!

It's always tricky to tell other people's stories but initial feedback from a few chums - and their loved ones back home - who were involved, and draft-read the manuscript for me, seem to suggest I haven't made any terrible bloopers.

That said.... no doubt a few PPrune experts might disagree. We shall see!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x512/card_knock_1593cb69300feae6af9f5eae74c067e4bc9d8aa1.jpg

[typerated]

Really looking forward to reading it.

John, Is there any plans to make any of your recent your books into talking books? Especially this one?
I think I had a copy of Tornado Down on tape once.

Also, as an aside.
For the nighttime missions - were the Mauser cannons loaded with ammunition? and if so what might you have used it on?
I'd have thought better to have the (lack of) weight

TR

[John Nichol]

Hi Type, Almost all of my books are available as audio books - just have a look on Amazon.

The loads changed as the ops changed (and the 3 separate Dets also sometimes diverged) but certainly on the first few nights the guns were fully fuelled.
Indeed, on night 2 or 3 Steve Barnes took umbrage at a AAA site trying to kill him as they flew in towards an Iraqi airfield at 540kts & 200ft so he selected TOO and hosed the position down with HE.
Anyone who has ever used the guns at night (the flash/flame rather tends to envelope the cockpit) will understand what an abject and truly unpleasant shock this was to Charley Barley in the back seat who was head in looking for the offsets as they were in the midst of the attack run. Halcyon days indeed.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x512/card_strain_4d3fa6df48d81e84e9089d408a62da36d79b2f2e.jpg

[just another jocky]

My copy arrived today. Perfect timing for the sunny days ahead and a good read sat in the garden.

[John Nichol]

Hope you enjoy it and I look forward to the debrief...............!

[Cat Techie]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1724x1140/purple_heart_2_183fbf1e40086ddc1783cbd226f8f0a012c3eedf.jpg
The first aircraft to use JP233 in anger I believe? Jerry Witts mount for the first raid, ZD843. My photo of her, looking at the repair Bernie James did for the big hole on the front. I repaired the hole in the cockpit floor. The badly damaged jet from the night raid of the 24th of Janunary 91 from Dhahran. Was on the ABDR teams that got her back to be a war goer. The other aircraft in that formation didn't get back, ZA403. I know Simon Burgess was the pilot (RIP). Just brought Johns book as a birthday present for my brother and another copy for my wife to pack for mine. Shame I didn't find this photo earlier as it would have been in Dave Gledhill's next book being released at the end of the month.

[Cat Techie]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1153x677/tonka_launch_3ab33d4bdfbe6980e409cea38e74a0c9ba312422.jpg
Early morning launch by the Dhahran wing, early Feb 1991. Only picture of a flying jet I got!

[Cat Techie]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1748x1148/morning_dhahran_51498cdf0053353abe04ea7fb7cffbf371326338.jpg
The 31 Sqn line at sunrise.

[Cat Techie]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1743x1169/floor_damage_d2492ec7f2b1bf69ac41b298c2070356ab49d171.jpg
That was a bast**** to repair and required some lateral thinking outside of the box of stuff we had.

[typerated]

That's amazing John,

On so many levels!

Good on him for having the chutzpa to have a go back - never mind the spare capacity - I can't imagine having any other thought than get lower and faster!
Hard to imagine he could see what he was firing at apart from AAA's flash's - hard to estimate range Id have thought
Presumably the AAA was on track and he just bunted over (in the dark) to have at pop at it.

The mind boggles!

Never heard of any nighttime strafe before

But surely you would expect to be blinded by the gun!

[frodo_monkey]

Never heard of any nighttime strafe before

But surely you would expect to be blinded by the gun!

I can’t speak for 1991, but night strafe is practiced regularly - although now you’d use the pod (and HUD cues) for aiming. I’ve only ever strafed from the GR4 with a single gun vice the two of the GR1, but it was so far under the nose it wasn’t an issue (plus we weren’t using tracer).

[Just This Once...]

GR1, both guns, fast rate with tracer in the haribo mix was no drama at night.

To put that into context, whilst we doing that with the first 'coloured' NVG-modified cockpit against a single target at Deci, the A-10 dudes were doing up to 4 targets with zero NVG mods, a basic HUD and with cylumes pointing from knees or wrists to view the steam gauges and the library of CAS paperwork. Balls of steel.

[Cat Techie]

GR1, both guns, fast rate with tracer in the haribo mix was no drama at night.

To put that into context, whilst we doing that with the first 'coloured' NVG-modified cockpit against a single target at Deci, the A-10 dudes were doing up to 4 targets with zero NVG mods, a basic HUD and with cylumes pointing from knees or wrists to view the steam gauges and the library of CAS paperwork. Balls of steel.
Met Wam, concur.

[Cat Techie]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1743x1169/floor_damage_d2492ec7f2b1bf69ac41b298c2070356ab49d171.jpg
That was a bast**** to repair and required some lateral thinking outside of the box of stuff we had.

Just read the description of the mission in John's book. I had heard of it from the SEngO of 31 at the time and from one of the pilots from the second part of the package. At the time we started repairing ZD843, we were told it was damage from a SAM. Later on, we got to hear it was caused by air burst fuzed weapons arming directly on release. After we had finished the repairs and "DH" was back on the ramp as an active asset, an Armament Engineering Officer came in with a drawing and asked if 40 "Z" shaped brackets could be knocked up for an emergency mod for certain weapons. Made a batch up that early morning. The part of bomb casing that caused that damage, I picked out of the cockpit. After chopping through the gun bay door, the gun barrel support mounting foot (that did take most of the kinetic energy out of the fragment) and the cockpit floor, a small cable support bracket, that was cracked took the last brunt of the fragments velocity. Aircraft was released as CAT 3 (Fly) with multiple ADF's for repairs and one Lim for the LH Gun not to be used. Did several more missions before a failure of the canopy hinge structure (not war related) saw her being swapped out. Was on the ground at Bruggen for a long time afterwards with the resultant peace time repairs. ZD843 did take part in other operations until being RTPed in the mid 2010s, the circular patch on left side of the fin being the only indication of the damage caused to her that night that remained.

[bobward]

I'm part way through the book, John.
A very impressive tome thus far, with more than a little dust in the air at times.
Greatest respect to all who flew and fixed the jet in GW 1, and all the events thereafter.

[ancientaviator62]

Very impressive BDR by the technicians and great thinking 'outside the box'. Begs the question how would the modern 'plastic' a/c fare in similar circumstances ? Genuine enquiry from an ex 'techie' but not airframes.

[John Nichol]

Thanks for that info about the BDR Cat, really interesting. It really was an incredible feat of aviation that Stew Gillies & Pete Rochelle managed to get that jet home. In different times, I think it would almost certainly have attracted an award.
& thanks for the comments Bobward - very much appreciated.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x512/card_die_d7bd48ae3402f1f553c95a16f5c062d7402e224d.jpg

[Cat Techie]

Very impressive BDR by the technicians and great thinking 'outside the box'. Begs the question how would the modern 'plastic' a/c fare in similar circumstances ? Genuine enquiry from an ex 'techie' but not airframes.

Replace plastic with metal was the first gen stuff for the GR5s etc. Not sure about modern Expedent Repair as composite patches could be as quick to "attach" as metal ones were. My problem was the rivets used on the repair on the nose of ZD843 were the only ones we had on the kit. Nobody had thought about internal damage such as a machinced pocket floor on the side of a Tornado. Saved by BAE having a structures bay at Dhahran and a wide choice of countersunk Cherrymax rivets. There were two BDR teams out at Dhahran. The 431 MU boys from Bruggen and us from Abingdon and pressed men from other units. Most of the RSS boys didn't have Tonka Qs. So it was decided we would do the repairs and the 431 guys would do the mass of component changes. Repairs carried out to fwd nose, LH cockpit floor, LH cannon mount foot, LH gun door, LH Wing, access panel on LH wing, hole in fin fuel tank and hole in fin fuel vent triangluar panel. 28 system wiring inline repairs. Items replaced included both RB199s, both sets of engine doors, both tailerons, LH Wing Spoiler and LH Wing Flaps. Any damaged LRU in areas mentioned were also replaced. I think it was 8 days of work 24/7 including the customary 10 pm SCUD attack. Whole story is here. Book plug time. https://grubstreet.co.uk/product/groundcrew-boys/
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1740x1092/foot_952593d77b002698df2cfe1fd523adf7af0122d9.jpg
Spelling was as bad then as it is now.

[Cat Techie]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1772x1048/cat_3_514d1278b7887defd993a4326bbf1182f9cfcef0.jpg
The Cat didn't survive SEngO's edict that only a purple heart was allowed to be added as art.

[ancientaviator62]

CT,
thanks for the link to the book. It is on the wish list.About time the groundcrew got a shout. When I was on 92 a rigger mate taught me to rivet, with pop (?) rivets. I became quite good but was painfully slow much to his amusement. Still it came in useful later when restoring a classic car. So I can fully appreciate the skill you and your mates so clearly demonstrated.
Shame on the SEngo , every artist is entitled to sign their work.

[MG]

Just read the description of the mission in John's book. I had heard of it from the SEngO of 31 at the time and from one of the pilots from the second part of the package. At the time we started repairing ZD843, we were told it was damage from a SAM. Later on, we got to hear it was caused by air burst fuzed weapons arming directly on release. After we had finished the repairs and "DH" was back on the ramp as an active asset, an Armament Engineering Officer came in with a drawing and asked if 40 "Z" shaped brackets could be knocked up for an emergency mod for certain weapons. Made a batch up that early morning. The part of bomb casing that caused that damage, I picked out of the cockpit. After chopping through the gun bay door, the gun barrel support mounting foot (that did take most of the kinetic energy out of the fragment) and the cockpit floor, a small cable support bracket, that was cracked took the last brunt of the fragments velocity. Aircraft was released as CAT 3 (Fly) with multiple ADF's for repairs and one Lim for the LH Gun not to be used. Did several more missions before a failure of the canopy hinge structure (not war related) saw her being swapped out. Was on the ground at Bruggen for a long time afterwards with the resultant peace time repairs. ZD843 did take part in other operations until being RTPed in the mid 2010s, the circular patch on left side of the fin being the only indication of the damage caused to her that night that remained.
yep, escorted that back to Dharhan from the target that night, after seeing Budgie and Bob Ankerson go down.

[Cat Techie]

yep, escorted that back to Dharhan from the target that night, after seeing Budgie and Bob Ankerson go down.

Would be interested to know anyone that flew "DH" as a war goer afterwards. I did see it go off on its first mission post repair with Baldrick, one of the other riggers on our repair team. Alas lost the negatives of it's see off. I know an uncle of my old Jag unit was in your part of the package (being the guy that got me in touch with SEngO for the raid info for my story). Rumours I heard that it flew like a pig as one of the taileron spigots wasn't as straight as it should have been. Les had asked if peace time repairs could be carried out. The lead Riggers on both repair teams had said it would be months if cat 3 standard level of repair was attempted. Bernies insert repair on the nose was the closest example to a peace time standard repair. All repairs passed the remit of restoring structural strengh.

[MG]

Would be interested to know anyone that flew "DH" as a war goer afterwards. I did see it go off on its first mission post repair with Baldrick, one of the other riggers on our repair team. Alas lost the negatives of it's see off. I know an uncle of my old Jag unit was in your part of the package (being the guy that got me in touch with SEngO for the raid info for my story). Rumours I heard that it flew like a pig as one of the taileron spigots wasn't as straight as it should have been. Les had asked if peace time repairs could be carried out. The lead Riggers on both repair teams had said it would be months if cat 3 standard level of repair was attempted. Bernies insert repair on the nose was the closest example to a peace time standard repair. All repairs passed the remit of restoring structural strengh.
Sorry, didn’t fly it again until Dec 91, and then quite a lot in Jan 92. From what I recall, it got a good reputation as being a bag of spanners.
But you guys did a sterling job in getting it back on line considering the damage it received.

[Cat Techie]

Sorry, didn’t fly it again until Dec 91, and then quite a lot in Jan 92. From what I recall, it got a good reputation as being a bag of spanners.
But you guys did a sterling job in getting it back on line considering the damage it received.

Les said it was the first Tornado to use JP233. His diary and camera shots filled my story. Just wish I had known my photos were at my mothers house!

The Tornado with the Purple Heart. The UK ABDR lads waiting to go into work at Dhahran for the first time in the afternoon after the raid. We didn't know we had trade. Had got off the Herc from Rhyaid the evening before. I knew the famous 31 Rigger "Charlie" Brown from my days in Germany. He was waiting for others off the Herc. "Charlie, why the **** are you dressed like Rambo?!"

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1772x1095/bdr_team_5c53662763ff2b23cc7a7cbadb6eb44a96c43b07.jpg