Reciprocal agreement with the EU on the transfer of UK CAA Flight Crew Licences. [Archive]

BONES_

29th Mar 2021, 21:11

Banana Joe - I passed 14 EASA exams, why should they no longer be valid for issue of an EASA ATPL for example if I meet all the other 3rd country requirements?

If you have passed the 14 exams before 31st December 2020, you can still use them for an EASA licence application; having said that you will need a new EASA initial medical. If you need more details, let me know.

UK citizens have the right to live and work in Ireland,
Right to live and work in Ireland is NOT the same as unrestricted right to live and work in the EU. Clearly stated on Ryanair website. I guess you could ask directly Ryanair HR dept for clarification? Have a look on LinkedIn perhaps.

there are jobs in the UK (Ryanair), and outside of the EU, that require EASA licences for various reasons.
I can’t think of any outfit in the UK other than RYR requiring an EASA licence only. But you could be well right, i’m not disputing that!

The UK is recognising EASA licences for 2 years, and providing a pathway to gain a UK licence
Not quite. The UK CAA is only recognising EASA licences issued PRIOR 31st December 2020. For EASA licences issued after, no recognition.
Similarly, the pathway you mention to obtain UK part-FCL licences only applies to those who previously HELD a UK issued EASA licence AND SOLI’ed out.

Is it unreasonable to ask for reciprocation to be considered?
Please don’t take it personally, but the risks of a hard Brexit have been obvious since 2018. EASA and the UK CAA have been very clear on their respective websites.

I really find this whole story terribly sad: I’m genuinely sorry for all those fallen through the cracks. But ultimately it was the UK that wanted out; EASA membership was offered and indeed wanted by the UK CAA. However the Transport Secretary had different ideas.

I truly hope some compromise can be found; anything from rejoining EASA or a facilitated licence conversion would great (eg get a new medical, sit Air Law and a skill test?). As for the petition, I can’t sign it because I haven’t got the right to; I shall however share it among my colleagues and friends!

rogue leader

29th Mar 2021, 21:39

Bones, thank you for the reply.

If you know how a UK CPL holder (former UK EASA CPL holder) who meets all the other EASA requirements for issue of an ATPL to a 3rd country applicant can use their 14 EASA exam passes taken in the UK by 31/12/20 I would be very interested.

There are flying jobs in Ireland which don't require unrestricted right to live and work in the EU, but do require an EASA licence - Banana Joe's suggestion of a validation is a more difficult and short term solution.

Ryanair will accept applications from UK passport holders to work on the UK AOC, but only if they have an EASA licence.

Recognition applies to any holders (of any nationality or citizenship) of current EASA licences issued by any EASA state up to and including 31/12/20, unless you applied to SOLI transfer out of the UK by that date, in which case it applies to EASA licences issued up to and including 31/3/21.

The EASA to UK pathway is open from 1/4/21 to anyone (of any nationality or citizenship) who currently holds an EASA licence issued by any EASA state up to and including 31/12/20, unless you applied to SOLI out of the UK by that date, in which case there is no restriction on issue date.

I'm suggesting reciprocation, so a system for those who completed all the EASA theoretical and practical training in the UK, and were issued an EASA licence by the UK CAA (valid for life at time of issue) prior to us leaving the EU. Since 1/1/21 we are no longer in EASA so licences issued in the UK after that date are unfortunately no longer equivalent, and vice-versa.

EASA and the CAA may have been clear on their websites, but some of your fellow pilots have been instructed by their employers on what they could do. Others will have been unable to SOLI transfer out of the UK in order to retain their well earned EASA licence as if they had an LPC due at a UK employer between receiving their new EASA licence, and being able to apply for and receive their UK licence after 1/4/21, they would have needed an EASA licence TRE and sim/aircraft to do it in.

I thank the EU for offering to allow us to stay in EASA, and I wish we had, but there were certain legal and ideological ties that would have involved which were deemed unpalatable given the result of the democratic process, so a political decision was made. This should not interfere with legitimate, reasonable and perfectly sensible agreements being made for the benefit of UK and EU citizen aircrew moving forward.

https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition/commercial-pilots/

Alrosa

30th Mar 2021, 10:07

This is a case of professional pilots (and many others, in other industries) being held hostage to politics. We have a self-obsessed, inflexible, bureaucratic monster engaging with a stubborn, petulant and immature government that wants to turn the clock back 100 years. Not a great recipe for progress.

In the meantime, the only thing left to do to repair this mess is to engage with our political representatives, although my concern is those in a position to make things happen are simply not interested.

Denti

30th Mar 2021, 13:00

I can understand the frustration caused by the choices of the UK government. And of course it is a course of action to petition said government to change its mind.

However, there is of course another party to any such agreement, and the situation has now changed. There is a huge surplus of pilots in the EU to begin with, without having to accommodate third country immigrant workers competing for jobs and driving down wages even more than they are now already. In the end, the EU is responsible for the wellbeing of its own citizens, not those of third countries. Therefore, there is of course a justified case to be made to make it easier for EU citizens to reclaim their EASA license, not so much for non-EU citizens.

The EU never demanded license acceptance by the UK, it was the unilateral choice of the UK to grant that, most probably driven by the inability to exchange former UK issued EASA licenses to valid UK licenses in a timely manner and under lobbying from UK airlines, who, unlike their employees, sometimes do get heard at government level.

Dark Stanley

30th Mar 2021, 16:58

Well it all seems to be a bit confused I think.
DHL UK still seem to be able to fly point to point in Europe. Have all the DHL pilots SOLI’ed out? Could be a storm brewing if they haven’t and the airframes have to transfer to the D reg...

Contact Approach

30th Mar 2021, 17:24

Isn’t sourcing funding and completing pilot training complex enough without this problem. What precedence do we set for the next generation when we can’t even recognise that one or the other is exactly the same.
Utter shambles and those involved should be ashamed.

Central Scrutinizer

30th Mar 2021, 18:54

I signed this petition and shared it across all my contacts.

Please don't turn this into a stupid political discussion guys. We are pilots here, we just want to fly...
Most people affected by Brexit regarding their FCL licenses either weren't eligible to vote in the Brext referendum (because they weren't British nationals), or voted to stay in the EU. It's a bit daft to tell UK LICENCED pilots (not necessarilly British nationals, many of them in fact EU nationals like myself) to just shut up and accept the consequences of something that was never even within the realms of their control...

nickler

30th Mar 2021, 19:19

Xavelha

30th Mar 2021, 19:36

could not agree more

Contact Approach

30th Mar 2021, 20:00

As pilots theres little that truly separates our skills and knowledge other than bureaucrats. Let’s stick together.

Banana Joe

30th Mar 2021, 20:35

Let's first sort all EU jobless pilots, then we'll discuss that. Now the UK is a third country, and the UK voted for it.

Central Scrutinizer

30th Mar 2021, 20:49

But I am an EU jobless pilot. Just happen to have a UK licence. Now what?

simmple

30th Mar 2021, 21:05

olster
It’s really good you were welcomed by the U.K. airlines as I guess you are European.
I am a U.K. national And worked for a European airline and let’s just say your experience differs from mine slightly!
Things got even worse for everyone on this side of the pond when the EU got involved years ago
Saying that we are all pilots examined and trained to a standard and should stick together, hell we all know once politicians get involved things only change for the worse.
Why fight amongst ourselves?

5strypes

30th Mar 2021, 21:20

Banana Joe

You sound like you'd be a great day out to fly with:rolleyes: Point was made quite well above, we all want to fly and have been hindered by politics. A license from a first world country is a valid license. For the record I have an EASA license, working for an EU airline and living in the EU. I have no skin in this game, but what's good for one, is good for all. Banana Joe, you don't know where your next job may be.

nickler

30th Mar 2021, 21:20

Banana Joe

True, but keep in mind that a lot of those voters would have had troubles in deciding whether to go for a double cheeseburger or a fish burger... let alone deciding the future of their Country. Those are the limits of democracy.

lear999wa

30th Mar 2021, 21:58

Although I have no problem with granting all pre brexit atpl holders a blanket exemption to be issued with an easa atpl. The problem is that should easa give uk caa atpl holders, easa atpls going forward. The uk caa could and would be able to relax standards. At the end of the day the uk isn't part of easa anymore and anything could happen with regards to atpl issuing requirements. In my opinion it would be reckless for easa to give such a blanket exemption without first entering some sort of negotiations (witch in all fairness will happen at some point in the coming years).
Then there is of course the point of fairness, as has been mentioned previously. There are hoards of other pilots world wide, with third country licenses who would undoubtedly also like to have the opportunity to be issued with an easa atpl. How fair would it be to only grant this to uk licence holders and not of say australia or argentina.

Central Scrutinizer

30th Mar 2021, 22:08

Look, it's very easy: UK licence holders had an EASA licence up and until the end of 2020. On 1 January 2021, their previously held EASA licence was retroactively removed and taken away from them. Do you call that fair?

It has absolutely nothing to do with Australia or Argentina. UK pilots were and continue to be trained to exactly the same Part-FCL requirements as the rest of EASA pilots. Most importantly, UK "WAS" EASA. Australia or Argentina have never been EASA countries. There is no precedent for an EASA Member State leaving and becoming a Third Country so no other case is comparable to this one.

Banana Joe

30th Mar 2021, 23:18

But I am an EU jobless pilot. Just happen to have a UK licence. Now what?
As I've said in a previous post, for current EU citizens that held a EASA license before 31 January 2021 I would support a facilitated pathway. In an ideal world, that means just a couple of papers to sign to have your license with ratings issued.

Denti

31st Mar 2021, 00:27

Look, it's very easy: UK licence holders had an EASA licence up and until the end of 2020. On 1 January 2021, their previously held EASA licence was retroactively removed and taken away from them. Do you call that fair?

It might sound callous, but the question of fairness is actually beside the point. It was a clear, and well known, consequence of leaving a regulatory area and moving into another. EASA published its first guideline about that in March 2018, there was enough time to figure out what to do. I'm sure there was a possibility for an reciprocal agreement on licenses, same as there was a clear cut offer for visa free touring for artists. But, unlike artists, flight crew licenses have a very direct and immediate safety implication. And it is up to the issuing authority to police that. Which means invalidating licenses, removing privileges or other means of curtailing license privileges in case of problems on the line (incidents, accidents), medical issues and so on. Within the EASA area the rules are developed and published by EASA, but the enforcement is up to local authorities, both under the supervision of a legal system that at its final arbiter has the ECJ and as its basic rulemaking authority the European Parliament. And EASA has direct authority over local authorities.

With the hard brexit for services, which was the clear cut aim of the current UK administration, the CAA was no longer under the authority of EASA, the European Parliament and the ECJ. Therefore, there was no way to be sure that proper policing of licenses takes place any longer, especially with the more and more wide usage of Henry VII powers by UK ministers including junior ministers in all matters previously regulated by the EU.

There still seems to be a way to regain your EASA license without having to do all the tests again, and for anyone out of work or on furlough, now is the time to get cracking and jump on that possibility. Any possible agreement between the EU and the UK (and of course agreements always remain possible), will most likely take a few years if it is possible with the current UK administration to begin with. For EU citizens there is of course always the possibility to contact your local MEP, work through the EU commissions citizens participation project and put pressure on your local government which, after all, has a seat in the council.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 06:18

Denti

There is a way to ensure anything pre 1st jan 2021 is properly policed and that is because it was then under the jurisdiction of EASA. Failing to recognise that previous standards were met for the sake of gaining new licences in MS is absolute codswallop and helps nobody.

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 08:24

Contact Approach, you knew what was coming. It was clear and both EASA and the UK CAA advised the current UK administration. Why didn't you convert your license?

My employer had to ground and terminate 6 contractors on the long haul fleet because they were confident common sense would prevail. It won't. It never will with the current muppets in the administrations on both sides of the channel.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 08:26

It’s not about me. I hold an EASA licence.

I’m able to think beyond myself and for the sake of my kids or anyone else who has saved up and paid thousands of GBP/Euros to complete EASA training courses to be met by a global pandemic, a political s**t storm and then to lose previously gained credentials needlessly so. How is this situation fair on them? Honouring pre-Brexit EASA training / licences would not have been an unreasonable nor difficult thing to have implemented, it’s how it worked when JAR became EASA.

Those of the opinion this situation can be justified simply care for themselves and sod the rest. Pathetic. Frankly that mentality isn’t welcome on my flightdeck irrespective of where your homeland lies.

We share a common goal and interest and that is simply to do our job. Last I checked the UK lot still knew how to fly aeroplanes pretty well before and after Brexit.

Nothing has truly changed from a pilots perspective.

Denti

31st Mar 2021, 08:32

There is a way to ensure anything pre 1st jan 2021 is properly policed and that is because it was then under the jurisdiction of EASA. Failing to recognise that previous standards were met for the sake of gaining new licences in MS is absolute codswallop and helps nobody.
Indeed there was, the SOLI transfer was possible without any problems until december 31st for a reason, and actually advised by both the UK CAA and EASA. When i had my last UK bound simulator event in december the trainer told me that his company had switched a fair share of their UK based trainer to a non-UK EASA license to be able to sign EASA licenses in the new year, apparently companies did know that as well as many individual pilots, there are numerous thread over the last few years about SOLI transfers on this very forum for a reason.

And of course, since January 1st there has been no official partnership between CAA and EASA, therefore EASA and EASA national authorities do not have any knowledge whatever did happen to license holders and their previously held privileges, after all, it has been nearly four months now.

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 08:33

It’s not about me. I hold an Irish EASA licence. I’m able to think beyond myself and for the sake of my kids, how is this situation fair on them? Those of the opinion this situation can be justified simply care for themselves and sod the rest. Pathetic. Frankly that mentality isn’t welcome on my flightdeck where ever your homeland lies.
I'd love to have a FAA ticket and have the ability to work in the US, but such is life... :hmm:

I am sure an EASA license will be the least of their problems for your kids. For current professionals instead, they are supposed to think and act accordingly with the information available and not hope for "common sense to prevail".

FlyingStone

31st Mar 2021, 08:38

For EU citizens there is of course always the possibility to contact your local MEP, work through the EU commissions citizens participation project and put pressure on your local government which, after all, has a seat in the council.

Except for EU citizens who happen to be living in the UK.

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 08:48

And anyway it seems that if the EASA ATPL exams were passed in under the authority of a current EASA country, one doesn't need to resit 14 ATPL exams. Look into that.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 09:06

Like I said you’ve clearly got a chip on your shoulder.

The UK has started imposing charges for EU carriers landing in the UK who haven’t yet negotiated block deals. This is but one of the many issues we all face as this political situation gets worse. If you support this madness you are in the wrong job.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 09:09

Banana Joe

What information is currently available to those EU nationals currently working for UK airlines who may be soon made redundant with UK licences and want to return to work in their homeland?
Your attitude stinks mate.

Central Scrutinizer

31st Mar 2021, 09:16

Why didn't you convert your license?

This questions comes up all the time.

The simple answer is: It was never clear, in the months leading to the 31 December 2020, that for a UK licence holder, a student in the middle of training, transferring the licence was the best course of action AT THAT TIME. There were many risks involved.

By November or December 2020, when it was becoming more evident that there would be no immediate recognition of UK licences, a transfer was already too late in many cases. With the UK CAA not recommending any transfer past October. And many EASA NAA rejecting applications that were initiated in the last months/weeks of 2020 because they hadn't reached them in time (this is probably illegal, but go and spend the money, time and effort to prove them wrong...).
Rumours were circulating around ATOs that a last minute deal would include a 2 year grace period. Unfortunately it turned out that this grace period was only unilateral, not bilateral.

Now we have the benefit of hindsight and everybody who doesn't clearly understand the situation is saying: YOU SHOULD HAVE SOLIED, YOU IDIOT!
It was never that clear cut a few months ago.

Central Scrutinizer

31st Mar 2021, 09:19

Except for EU citizens who happen to be living in the UK.

Precisely.

We are on the absolutely worst boat possible:

EU National
UK resident
UK licence holder
Not intending on staying in the UK past 2021 since I am sick of this bloody Brexit and distantiation from the EU.
If I can't obtain an EASA licence I will be "imprisoned" in the UK against my will.
Can't lobby EASA or EU MEPs because I don't have an EU MEP since I am a UK resident.

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 09:23

What information is currently available to those EU nationals currently working for UK airlines who may be soon made redundant with UK licences and want to return to work in their homeland?
Your attitude stinks mate.
My attitude doesn't stink. It had been known for two years at least that this would come. Get a grip. Sorry for the EU nationals that were stuck with a UK operator and as I've said I would make it easy for them.
But you keep not getting it. You want to keep cherry picking in pure British style.

Enjoy your blue passport now.

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 09:25

Central Scrutinizer

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Thousands of people SOLI'd their licenses out. Plenty of information and warnings were available. You failed to do your homework unless you were stuck with a UK operator that wouldn't allow you to SOLI your license. In this case you've got my sympathy.

My employer advised those 6 contractors, they were stubborn. Their contract was terminated.

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 09:33

Really? Taking it to the next level with personal offenses now? Did I touch a nerve?:}

Landflap

31st Mar 2021, 09:45

Of course it is political . We need to get back to the simple concept of every nation having the right to establish a Regulatory Authority that issues it's own licence and sets it's own standards. Nations agreeing on similarity can just issue a validation. Some will not, in a ,sort of, tit for tat but understandable stance. US never gave us Brits an FAA ATR just because we had a UK ATPL. Reasoning was that we did not recognise the FAA ATR as the same standards as the UK. So, there ! Political, actually, not professionally reasonable.

Regulatory Authority Licencing Departments should be peopled by Professional or ex-professional pilots . Let the politicians take over the regulation and you have this mess.

Denti

31st Mar 2021, 09:47

EU citizens living outside the EU still can lobby their home countries MEPs, after all they remain citizens and are, at least in the countries i know, still able to vote even if outside the EU. But that might depend on member state. Living inside the EU they can vote for MEPs either in their home country or their country of residence obviously, not in both of them.

Theholdingpoint

31st Mar 2021, 11:31

I'd support such agreement if it only applies to EU nationals that on the 31st Dec 2020 had/were studing for an EASA CPL.
As long as it means UK nationals can convert to EASA (which as of today has no saying in what the CAA can or can't do) I'm not signing it.

Contact Approach : YOUR cockpit?

TURIN

31st Mar 2021, 11:40

rogue leader

Short answer. Because the UK has withdrawn from EASA the oversight and enforcement of which is the ECJ which the UK has demonstrated it does not want to be ruled by. This was all fully explained ad nauseum before during and after the UK vote. No body wanted to listen, because, well, bananas, £350M to the NHS etc. we wanted sovereign rule and autonomy. We have it. The consequences are clear and obvious. I feel for sorry for all avaiation licence holders. we were lied to by government, again. (I still have my letter from my MP assuring me that the UK would be staying in EASA).

UberPilot

31st Mar 2021, 12:02

But you won't be able to change country.

As for Ireland, get a validation. The rest is cherry picking.

Not true either. Any Brit married to an EU citizen retains the freedom of movement to follow their spouse around the EU.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 12:20

Theholdingpoint

Those justifying this stupidly serve only to prove Brexiteers correct. Very sad.

Theholdingpoint

31st Mar 2021, 12:30

You're just labelling as "stupid" everyone disagreeing with you.

The UK voted to leave the EU and become a third country. Stop your (failed) cherry picking.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 13:26

Theholdingpoint

No I’m just stating facts.

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 13:35

UberPilot

Well I could go to Vegas and marry the first woman I meet then. Where's my FAA certificate waiting for me now?
:ugh:
And that still is not unrestricted right to live and work in Europe.

Theholdingpoint

31st Mar 2021, 13:40

Facts are both the U.K. CAA and their counterparts in member states want reciprocity based on the same standards.

EU pilots have nothing to gain from allowing an automatic conversion from UK CAA to EASA, even less if we also consider the new UK immigration system. This is a fact.
Stop the cherry picking.

Contact Approach Those justifying this stupidly serve only to prove Brexiteers correct. Very sad.

This is an opinion, not a fact.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 13:41

Banana Joe

So are you suggesting we Europeans should be given the boot from the U.K. then?

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 13:54

Theholdingpoint

What a load of a rubbish! Our European national carriers cherry pick also, setting language barriers and sometimes national service for entry.
You clearly care only for yourself. I see this as nothing but a bad result for everyone.

HP,

I just checked and we work for the same company... initially a UK airline that thrives on being European to it’s core.
Beggars belief! You ought to know better.

Pistolpete47

31st Mar 2021, 14:10

I'm a Kiwi with a UK and EU passport so have the ability to work in both places. Now my once European licence is only useful in UK. It's the same bloody licence, I've done the same tests as everyone in Europe but my options are now massively restricted. It's a joke and should be fixed!

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 14:27

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 14:29

Banana Joe

So are you suggesting we Europeans should be given the boot from the U.K. then?
Have I said that? No, but I don't care what the UK. For whatever reason, the UK CAA decided to recognise EASA licenses, but EASA and the EU don't need to. That's it.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 14:39

Then ask the UK government to become part of EASA again. But they won't, they don't want to. They don't care about you, about their pilots, about their carriers, about their infrastracture (bye bye LPV).

Don't blame EASA or the EU, blame the UK Government.

I blame all political parties involved in creating this mess for many professional pilots who simply want to do their job.

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 14:47

The EU did their job, they offered the option to the UK Government. Blame them.

Denti

31st Mar 2021, 14:53

Contact Approach

While the frustration is understandable, there is only one party to blame. It was the UK that wanted to leave the EU, not the other way round. It was the UK that wanted out of EASA, not the other way round. It was purely the choice of the UK to do this thing and additionally to accept EASA licenses. There is only one party to blame.

Paul Rice

31st Mar 2021, 15:04

I paid cash to the CAA for the issue of an EASA Licence which was valid in all EASA states and also included recognition in some non EU member EASA associated countries such as Norway, Liechtenstein, Switzerland and Iceland.

The CAA have once again stolen my licence privileges as they periodically do (IMC rating and BCPL).

Have we passed the point were the CAA can no longer be trusted with the basic responsibility for pilot licensing ?

Do pilots with British issued Licences need to form their own Professional Licencing Institute similar to the BMA for medical doctors or the Law Society for solicitors or the Institute of Chartered Accountants for Accountants. This non Governmental professional body could then negotiate directly with EASA for mutual recognition for its members qualifications independently free from the ideology of the Government of the Day on the understanding that with recognition our members would have to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ while exercising their professional licence privileges

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 15:05

Wow you guys are so petty its unbelievable.

Without doubt the UK Gov have screwed everybody and they are the ones to blame but what has that got to do with Pilots and why should those who aren’t involved with that mess have to suffer?

Banana Joe

31st Mar 2021, 15:17

You live in a crystal ball, don't you? People were warned about the consequences of Brexit. The UK CAA tried warning the UK Government of the impending mitake. In my little I suggested a few friends in their training to sit their exams under Aerocontrol instead of the UK CAA. It was all already too much clear 2 years ago.

Blake Seven

31st Mar 2021, 15:18

The simple fact is that an ideologically driven, Little Englander mentality, UK Government have screwed up the life chances of so many people, not just Pilots, not just Brits.

Theresa Mays Red lines and Johnson/Shapps lack of intelligence/ integrity are to blame, not the EU. And yet, and yet, so many Pilots I know voted for Brexit and so many would do so again.

Maybe the penny will finally drop, that the U.K. is a competitor to the EU and Global Britain is a painful joke. A joke nonetheless that its people need to suffer, not everything can be blamed on Europe.

Theholdingpoint

31st Mar 2021, 15:26

Theholdingpoint

What a load of a rubbish! Our European national carriers cherry pick also, setting language barriers and sometimes national service for entry.
You clearly care only for yourself. I see this as nothing but a bad result for everyone.

Why can't you just accept that someone has different ideas than yours? You're insulting everyone disagreeing with you, while at the same time blaming Banana Joe for his (supposed) attitude in the cockpit.
I care for my EU collegues first, and as I said I'd agree with the petition as long as it's for EU nationals only. What I'm seeing as a result is that I won't be flying from a UK base anytime soon and UK pilots won't be flying from an EU one...win-win, right?

HP,

I just checked and we work for the same company... initially a UK airline that thrives on being European to it’s core.
Beggars belief! You ought to know better.

Well, I'm still in an EU company, flying from a EU base...so what? "Being European" in our airline died when pilots voted for Brexit. They did and you know it for sure.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 15:34

"Being European" in our airline died when pilots voted for Brexit. They did and you know it for sure.

I can agree with you on that and it still baffles me to this day.

Denti

31st Mar 2021, 15:41

Paul Rice

As you pointed out, a state does not need to be an EU member state to be full member state of EASA, which all of the mentioned states are. And of course there are many other levels of agreements possible, yet, the UK decided to have no agreement whatsoever. No bilateral agreement, no technical cooperation, no memorandum of understanding and no working arrangement. And least of all, there is no EASA representative office in the UK, and no UK management board observer at EASA. Which means the UK has a more distant relationship with EASA than countries like Singapore, India, Thailand and Kazakhstan.

The idea of a professional licensing institute sounds interesting, but of course that would require the UK government to relinquish regulatory control over a professional sector, and the EU to accept it. For most professional qualifications to be accepted from the UK into the EU, it has to be done in each single EU member state, with the exception of certain professions that are EU regulated like pilots (sic), ATCOs, lawyers, seafarers and others. In the end an approach like that could de-politicize the whole issue and make it easier for both sides.

Deltasierra010

31st Mar 2021, 16:59

It’s not just aviation the EU do not accept any regulations that it cannot supervise, the UK decided to leave EASA nothing now complies with their rules. The ridiculous part is that at present our standards are exactly the same, we have not diverged, the way forward is for the UK to rejoin EASA, they are not going to accept our regulation unless they can supervise them.

Paul Rice

31st Mar 2021, 17:47

A independent professional institute which welcomes all pilots of any nationality or background who currently hold or who have held an EASA Pilots Licence. Pilots retain their licences as issued by their respective licensing authorities. Pilot membership grade within the institute is a function of the licence held ATPL, CPL, PPL, LAPL and the ratings that are current are closely monitored. The institute seeks EASA professional validation for its members who have been placed in distress by their national aviation authority by quality checking members credentials and acting as a bridge between the individual member and EASA thus acting as a refuge of professional asylum for displaced licence holders. The institute strives to becomes an inter state non national competent authority and seeks to mature into a full working member of EASA in due course.

Contact Approach

31st Mar 2021, 17:47

I agree and so do the U.K. CAA.

Paul Rice

31st Mar 2021, 18:19

The CAA has no jurisdiction over what professional associations or institutions its licence holders choose to join. If a professional association or institution secures an advantage for its members on the basis of the members holding a licence again it has nothing to do with the CAA. E.G a pilots union negotiating preferential life insurance for its members on the basis of the occupation group requires no agreement from the CAA. If the professional institute gains international validations of UK Licences for its members it has nothing to do at all with the CAA. I am sure that EASA would welcome the opportunity for continued co-operation and harmonisation with as wide a group of pilots as possible. In due course if the Professional Institute gains recognition by EASA as a competent authority then individual pilots might rely on their professional membership of the institute for their on going licensing while some might also choose to keep a CAA licence active in the background.

Denti

31st Mar 2021, 18:49

I doubt it would be that easy. Again, the EU will require robust legal oversight and enforcement of rules, subject to ECJ ruling and laws decided solely by EU members. And of course, licenses in the UK will remain under the oversight of the CAA and subject to laws and rules issued by UK ministers (not parliament anymore, they have squandered away their sovereignty). And of course the main reason not to align with EU rules was to diverge from those. It might be in minor matters, or in major matters. And of course, EU rules and laws evolve constantly, there is new secondary law issued by EASA roughly once a month, not completely, but in single issue topics. The UK would have to follow those rules to be considered of the same level, and not only for the moment, but for the future as well. After all, the EU deals with other governments, not professional associations except for lobbying reasons.

And in the end licensing, unlike insurance deals, is about legal government oversight and enforcement. However, personally i would love to se that play out, but i have no high hopes about a construct like that.

biddedout

31st Mar 2021, 20:19

Totally agree Blake,
The CAA have made it clear for the last two years what would happen in the event of a no deal and they wanted to reman in EASA as there was no particular area in which they felt the need to diverge. Leaving EASA was pointless as far as they were concerned, particularly as they were heavily involved in creating it. In the end we effectively got no deal for licencing and the bare bones air service package to keep the aircraft flying. At the time two years or so ago when the CAA published the "unlikely but we have to prepare for it plan" liar Johnson was running into an election supposedly with an oven deal ready promising everyone that the chances of no deal was a million to one. Amazingly, people fell for these blatant lies assumed everything would work out and gave the liar an eighty seat majority. It was always going to be no deal from then on. Shapps was well aware of the consequences but in order to save his ministerial skin, he said and did nothing. The little Englanders in the ERG got their way and we all suffer just because EASA contains the E word. The only person to blame here is liar Johnson.

Paul Rice

1st Apr 2021, 08:31

1 April 1918 saw the formation of the Royal Air Force so the 1 April does seem to be a favourable day to establish an aviation organisation such as an Institute of Pilots to protect the qualifications of its members from political persecution and administrative incompetence. As the CAA have devalued the UK Licence from having a validity throughout EASA to having a validity in the the UK only they can no longer be trusted with the responsibility of safeguarding the value of the Licences that they issue. Given the scale of investment in the Licence, the interconnectivity of the aviation industry the CAA Licence is no longer a viable instrument unless it is recognised respected and easily validated within EASA. As a UK Governmental body the CAA is incapable of achieving this and so the Institute of Pilots mission should be to form today as a non Governmental Body representing EASA Licence holders who have had their licence privileges stolen from them by the CAA. The aim of the Institute is the recognition of members qualifications and the facilitation of EASA validation of those qualifications. The Institute of Pilots has to be the Gold Standard upon which EASA can rely upon to support the now unstable CAA Licence. This process will not be easy but with pragmatism and a practical approach it may work. Are there enough unemployed pilots with organisational talent, time on their hands and the drive to set this up ?

biddedout

1st Apr 2021, 09:22

A good plan in theory and there are plenty of unemployed pilots around but the CAA is just a regulator. It works for the Government as an aviation police officer ensuring laws and regulations written by Government are complied with. Its role through the Brexit negotiations was to provide technical advice and I am sure it did. Sadly, the politicians weren't interested in opinions from experts they had only one aim.
It is staggering that the UK negotiators who"held all the cards" and were going to get an even better deal than the one we already have, with no downsides, have managed to negotiate the best possible deal for Irish pilots and the very worst for UK pilots. Good luck to our Irish colleagues and things are already starting to fall into place in MANbase. its no wonder Rees-Mogg moved part of his hedge fund to Dublin. I knows its going to be boom time over there.
In the midst of all this stupidity, the Government has from June also managed to cancel its subscription to the EGNOS Safety Of Life part of the Galileo project taking away a great opportunity to enhance safety in the UK by upgrading approaches at smaller airports and improving helicopter operations for minimal cost. All because there is an E in EGNOS. At least Shapps has sheepishly admitted that this was possibly a mistake although they are hoping to bury this next bit of bad news in all the background noise. Amazingly, the DfT have admitted that they were only on the edge of the room for this part of the negotiation. Clearly, out omnipotent Mr Frost knew best and we will of course be launching our own world beating rocket star satellite system thingy imminently.

Contact Approach

1st Apr 2021, 12:22

Or everyone with a UK issued licence could simply convert to an Irish EASA licence and leave the UK with nothing.

Young Paul

1st Apr 2021, 12:43

I totally get why EU citizens would be pretty peed off at the way "the UK" is behaving.

However, please bear in mind that only 17.4 million people voted in favour of Brexit, and very few of those expected other than "sunlit uplands".

Most people in this country are victims of a far right wing cult. As I said, I totally get EU citizens' frustration with the UK, but the more entrenched positions become, the more people lose sight of the fact that we are all humans, the harder it becomes to eventually reverse this madness.

Joe le Taxi

1st Apr 2021, 14:49

The government's decision not to stay with EASA is frustrating and damaging for UK aviation, but now we're seeing how Europe is weaponising any remaining influence it has, you can see how leaving the ECJ as a cornerstone of UK aviation could have become a true nightmare.

I have looked for the aer Lingus advert and can't find it, but presumably, it is open to British citizens, but they must have an EASA licence - and that is the beef amongst the Brits in the middle East. Surely though, there are loads of British pilots with EASA licences, many of whom converted in the run up to 2021, enough to fill the vacancies at any rate?

olster

1st Apr 2021, 18:45

I am surprised that there is not a legal challenge to this. Essentially we all do the same job. If you fly a B737 for Lufthansa or Jet2 it is all the same and the same standard. This is really Alice in Wonderland stuff. I am not interested in controversy or having an internet spat. This whole situation is beyond stupid with a spectacular lack of common sense. It is not fair on professional pilots either side of the channel who have their employment opportunities taken away. I do not have the inside track so have no idea whether the CAA wished to stay in EASA or not. My experiences with the CAA over a 40 year career have not left me with a warm feeling. Essentially the CAA, Balpa and the governmental protagonists have let the pilot community down. As already said I have had a long career mainly unhindered by politics. This is a real shame and I still hope common sense in the form of reciprocity can occur. My sympathies are with all posters whether they voted for Brexit or not, Brit or European.

lear999wa

1st Apr 2021, 19:09

A legal challenge before the ECJ? See, therein lies the problem.

Denti

1st Apr 2021, 20:26

olster

That is the point. We do indeed all the same job, whether we fly with a FAA license, an EASA one or a UK one. The thing is that a rather large change happend to the UK. The UK has now a lesser status than our US colleagues, imply due to choices made by the UK government. And yet, all three of us do the same job. But there is no escaping the fact that the UK is now a third country and not in the EU anymore, which does, inevitably, have consequences on both sides. And in the case of europeans, they did not have a say in that at all, even if they lived and worked in the UK.

As to a legal challenge, the question is, in front of what court? On which side?

rudestuff

2nd Apr 2021, 02:43

That is fairly obvious: In an EU court by an EU citizen who has been disadvantaged by an EU decision.

At the end of the day it's common sense that the 'spirit' of EASA is that there should be a common standard - so to revoke recognition for purely political reasons is wrong. Ok, so the CAA has left EASA, they can't now issue new EASA licences, but their old ones were done to EASA standards, in many cases in EASA countries with EASA examiners so to say that they somehow no longer meet that standard is farcical.

FlyingStone

2nd Apr 2021, 02:45

It is not fair on professional pilots either side of the channel who have their employment opportunities taken away.

Is it fair on doctors, engineers, taxi drivers, factory workers, cleaners?

olster

2nd Apr 2021, 07:23

Of course not. It would not be fair on other professions in the same circumstances. Firstly, this is a pilot (hence no requirement to discuss other jobs) rumour network and secondly why does everything have to be disputed or an argument on the internet? I am not interested.

Denti

2nd Apr 2021, 08:02

rude-stuff

Which would lead british pilots still with just a british license. Based on nationality there is a case to be made for EU citizens, as i posted several times above. They were disadvantaged, though with ample, very clear and precise, three years of warning by EASA. British pilots and british resident pilots are not disadvantaged, they still hold a british license.

And of course, you completely dismiss the element of oversight, which is crucial to any safety sensitive area.

That said, there was a clear advise from EASA to switch to EASA licenses as early as possible. And everyone could start that process until the end of last year where EASA oversight was still present. There is a clear reason why bigger players like the orange bunch switched their continental crews to non-UK licenses (more than two years ago already), and supposedly even quite a few UK based trainers as well. All based on publicly available advise. In the end, there will always be some who miss out on a deadline issue, but judging from the number of posters on this thread compared to the many SOLI threads, it is actually quite a small number.

Of course one can try a legal case, which, in any case, will take at least 3 to 5 years, a time probable better spent on just getting on with it and regaining the license the "normal" way if one needs it right now.

Banana Joe

2nd Apr 2021, 08:44

Denti, mate, your attitude stinks:}

Smooth Airperator

2nd Apr 2021, 08:51

And everyone could start that process until the end of last year where EASA oversight was still present.

How is that so? You could have been with an employer that expressly prohibited it, one such employer did, and they went bankrupt dumping 600 pilots on to the market.

Denti

2nd Apr 2021, 09:01

I would sue the administrators of that employer then. And of course, it would mean, that that employer went bankrupt in 2021, in 2020 there would have been still time to start the SOLI transfer.

Field Required

2nd Apr 2021, 09:29

Why is it not possible to simply apply for a new EASA licence off the back of training / licences held pre-Brexit when said training or licences would have met all EASA standards, regulations and oversight? I understand the UK is now recognised as a third country and anything issued from 1st Jan 2021 onwards suffers a different fate but I’m unable to find any regulation that would not make this possible. Infact EASA adopted that when JAR became EASA:

COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) No 1178/2011

of 3 November 2011

laying down technical requirements and administrative procedures related to civil aviation aircrew pursuant to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 of the European Parliament and of the Council

Article 9

Credit for training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation

▼M11 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/AUTO/?uri=celex:32019R1747)

1.

In respect of issuing Part-FCL licences in accordance with Annex I, training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation in accordance with the JARs and procedures, under the regulatory oversight of a Member State recommended for mutual recognition within the Joint Aviation Authorities’ system in relation to the relevant JARs, shall be given full credit provided that the training and testing were completed by 8 April 2016 at the latest and a Part-FCL licence is issued by 1 April 2020 at the latest.

▼B (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/AUTO/?uri=celex:32011R1178)

2.

Training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation in accordance with Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention shall be given credit for the purposes of issuing Part-FCL licences on the basis of a credit report established by the Member State in consultation with the Agency.

3.

The credit report shall describe the scope of the training, indicate for which requirements of Part-FCL licences credit is given and, if applicable, which requirements applicants need to comply with in order to be issued with Part-FCL licences. It shall include copies of all documents necessary to demonstrate the scope of the training and of the national regulations and procedures in accordance with which the training was commenced.

Is it simply because this wasn’t negotiated by the UK in the TCA agreement? As far as I understand it there is still scope for further adoption of Annexes by both sides into said agreement:

The first stages of that agreement have been incorporated in the Aviation Safety Title of the TCA. The TCA commits the parties to establish a Specialised Committee on Aviation Safety which is empowered to adopt Annexes for personnel licensing, ATM, aircraft operations and other areas covered by the Chicago Convention. Once agreed, each party is obliged to accept findings of compliance and certificates issued by the other party in accordance with any Annex.

Understandably there is a lot of heat on this topic so presumably it’s politically driven but theres little to be gained in all reality. Regardless of what licence you may have Brexit has removed certain fundamental working privileges from both sides of the channel which remains the biggest hinderance.

Asturias56

2nd Apr 2021, 11:29

The whole thrust of the Brexit argument was to "take back control" and "to control who has the right to work in the UK". Once the UK Govt . indicated they really were going ahead it was clear that there was great risk that we would finish up where we are now. People warned on here several years ago that the CAA had no people or resources to do anything quickly and the Govt sure as hell weren't intending to provide them. The risks were clear and there was a way to protect yourself if you moved with any speed at all. It was also a certainty that the EU wouldn't continue licensing after a hard Brexit - legally they can't and there is zero political will or benefit for them to change things. Politicians mouthing off about "having or cake and eating it " only poured petrol on the flames.

Fairness doesn't cut much ice with lawyers I'm afraid. Pilots aren't the only sufferers either

Alex Whittingham

2nd Apr 2021, 12:42

Field Required the UK, as you know, adopted all EU law before exit day and amended it with the Aviation Safety Act, which effectively repeatedly deletes the terms 'EASA' and 'member state' and replaces them with 'UK CAA'. Thus it is bound by Article 8 of EU decision 1178/2011 which says that, absent a two way agreement between States, the UK can convert foreign licences giving, in the case of ATPLs, credit against approved training but requiring all 13 TK exams to be taken and an ATPL skills test on type. EASA is bound by their equivalent, which is now amended to Article 3 of something else - can't remember. This means that licence reciprocity needs either (i) a bilateral agreement between UK and EASA, which is apparently being pursued but even if successful may take years, or could be done in a day if there was political will or (ii) a change in the law on both sides of the Channel. Obviously (i) is easier, but depends entirely on the political will being there on both sides.

TURIN

2nd Apr 2021, 12:59

rudestuff

It wasn't an EU decision, it was a UK gov decision based on 'the will of the people'.

How can EASA oversee the licences of current personel if the CAA, having withdrawn from EASA, can not be forced to comply with EASA regulation, should it change over the next few years? The UK has decided it does not want to be told what to do by the ECJ. By default that means EASA cannot tell the CAA what to do either.

It s a bl00dy mess and the UK has only itself to blame for allowing a populist opinion to get out of hand. But lets save that for Jet Blast.

rudestuff

2nd Apr 2021, 14:09

??? We’re talking about the EUs refusal to acknowledge that training done under EASA is still valid. That is *entirely* an EU decision. The CAA have done the decent thing, the EU are refusing to allow a common sense approach.

Field Required

2nd Apr 2021, 14:16

TURIN

As rudestuff points out it is an EU/EASA decision not to recognise or validate pre-Brexit EASA training / credentials.

EASA cant oversee anything the UK does from 1st Jan onwards, thats accepted, but what I struggle to understand is why/how EASA doesn’t recognise training or UK issued licences / medicals pre 31/12/20 as meeting EASA standards/regulations for the purpose of gaining a new licence in a member state.
All of my training documents from course completion through to skills tests and PC checks state clearly that said course/test was conducted and met EU regulation No 1178/2011 as amended and issued in accordance with Part FCL.

So you have a situation whereby (Pre-Brexit) individuals completed an EASA course, in an EASA country, in an EASA aircraft, with an EASA examiner, meeting all EU standards and regulations, completed all EASA paperwork but can’t now apply for a new EASA licence.

My EASA course completion form literally states:

12. Declaration
-I certify that I have examined the applicants flying log and the entries in them meet in full the flying experience requirements for the grant of the licence and/or rating in accordance with Part-FCL.
-I certify that the applicant has met the pre-requisite requirements in accordance with Part-FCL prior to commencing a course of training and has satisfactorily completed a course of training and has passed a skill test in accordance with Part-FCL for the issue of the licence and/or rating detailed above.
-I certify that the applicant has satisfactorily passed all of the required theoretical examinations, radiotelephony practical test and language proficiency requirements for the grant of the licence as outlined in section 10.

[QUOTE]FCL.015 Application and issue, revalidation and renewal of licences, ratings and certificates

a)

An application for the issue, revalidation or renewal of pilot licences and associated ratings and certificates as well as any amendment thereto shall be submitted to the competent authority in a form and manner established by that authority. The application shall be accompanied by evidence that applicants comply with the requirements for the issue, revalidation or renewal of the licence or certificate as well as associated ratings or endorsements established in this Annex (Part-FCL) and in Annex IV (Part-MED).

(e)

The holder of a licence that has been issued in accordance with this Annex (Part-FCL) may apply to the competent authority designated by another Member State for a change of competent authority relating to all licences held, as specified in paragraph (d).

(f)

For the issue of a licence, rating or certificate the applicant shall apply not later than 6 months after having succeeded at the skill test or assessment of competence.

If a SOLI was possible how can a new licence issue not be possible? Does an assessment of competence pertain only to instructor and/or examiner privileges?

Alex Whittingham

2nd Apr 2021, 16:11

UK issued medicals that were transferred before exit day are recognised, and now cannot be transferred because you can't transfer SOLI into an EASA State from a non-EASA state. If you have all the certificates for licence issue, all UK issued before exit day and all still valid, at the last look some Member States would still accept them (it was Austria and Denmark) because the advice from EASA not to do so was not an EU Decision, only an EASA recommendation, it had no legal force. Of course you would need a new EASA Class 1 held in the member State.

olster

2nd Apr 2021, 16:18

For those interested the Danes, very helpful by the way issued me a validation of my U.K. B737 SFE / SFI. This validation is FCL.900c. What that means is that the holder can train EASA trainees but NOT in an EASA member state as of now anyway. Hope that this could be useful info. Very pleasant exchange with the Denmark CAA which as opposed to the passive aggressive, surly and at times downright obstructive treatment from the U.K. CAA was a very pleasing and welcome change.

Bus Driver Man

3rd Apr 2021, 08:28

A validation of a U.K. licence, or at least a quick and easy conversion should be allowed by EASA. Especially from a country that was previously part of EASA. The standards in the U.K. are still a lot higher than in certain EASA countries.

Some non-EASA countries allow operation with a simple validation of an EASA licence, others require a conversion with only a single Air Law exam. EASA can easily apply this for U.K. licences. (Like the U.K. is recognising EASA licences for the next 2 years without any paperwork.)

However, those non-EASA countries recognising EASA licences do this because they are in a need of pilots which can’t be covered by local pilots (e.g. Turkey, U.A.E., Qatar, etc.). So as long as there isn’t a need for non-EASA pilots in the EU, I don’t think this will change soon unfortunately. There are plenty of unemployed EASA pilots available at the moment, so I don’t see EASA accepting non-EASA licences at the moment.

Bloated Stomach

3rd Apr 2021, 11:10

Without sounding pompous, I believe we were provided more than ample time to change state if required. A lot of people were hoping for positive negotiations during the brexit talks. Some of us saw the writing on the wall and had no confidence in the incompetent Conservative government. Any petition going forward should be in regards to incompetence, and not about equal terms.

Banana Joe

3rd Apr 2021, 13:23

I am quite sure no employer can prevent their pilots from changing their SOLI. We aren't in China where airlines own their pilots' license. Pilots should grow a pair.

nickler

3rd Apr 2021, 16:56

Not really. Having multiple different States issued licences becomes a headache during LPC renewals as each country has their own specific procedure (thumbs up EASA), hence airlines tend to have all pilots aligned on the same State license, especially when employing a few thousand pilots.

Banana Joe

3rd Apr 2021, 17:31

bittersweetheart

3rd Apr 2021, 19:10

End of the day, BREXIT and leaving EASA was supposedly the will of the people...

To my knowledge, EASA treat all ‘third countries’ the same. And much like the EU, it is a choice to be in or out. No judgement. But expecting special treatment from EASA, especially given the present political situation, might not be completely realistic me thinks..

To be frank. The information about what would happen to UK issued EASA licenses was both clear and readily available well before each and every deadline subsequently extended during the BREXIT negotiations.

As an EU Citizen living, working and raising a family in the UK until recently, keeping my EASA License was one of many BREXIT flavoured reasons why we did our own ‘exit’.

Leaving a good job and a settled life is never easy, but as has been shown, cakeism doesn’t really work when faced with reality... Staying put (and losing my EASA License) would have been a choice with consequences. Our decision to leave was a choice with other consequences, both in terms of career and family life.

On the individual level, this whole EASA vs CAA Licensing issue sucks. But in reality, compared to the grand scale of all things BREXIT, the number of people affected by flight crew licensing sort of pales in comparison.

I sincerely hope that some kind of solution is found in due course. But this ‘EASA MUST RECIPROCATE’ statement is perhaps a tiny bit naive. The UK has unilaterally decided to become a third country to EASA. And now they are. A bit blunt perhaps. But no less true?

nickler

3rd Apr 2021, 19:23

That's what my employer says, but the training department has also said they can't prevent us from changing the SOLI of our licence. The downside is that the individual pilot will have to organise the paperwork and advise the examiner in advance.

I don’t know how big your employer is, but with 4/5K + pilots it’s virtually impossible to handle multiple Licences.

deltahotel

3rd Apr 2021, 19:41

Providing they’re all EASA licences I don’t see why.

FlyingStone

3rd Apr 2021, 20:06

I am quite sure no employer can prevent their pilots from changing their SOLI. We aren't in China where airlines own their pilots' license. Pilots should grow a pair.

My employment contract states I am required to hold an EASA licence issued by a specific authority. Should that cease to be the case, my employment will be terminated.

Would I be able to win an unlawful dissmissal lawsuit? Possibly. Do I want to risk my ability to bring food to the table, and spend thousands of EUR for legal fees to sue my employer, who will categorise costs as "rounding error"? Not really.

Providing they’re all EASA licences I don’t see why.

EASA Examiner Differences document has over 100 pages. That's the problem. Every EASA member state has their own licencing authority, who interprets EASA regulation in their own way, with their unique procedures, which ultimately achieve the same goal.

A pan-European licencing authority would solve all these problems, but I doubt we'll see that anytime soon.

deltahotel

3rd Apr 2021, 20:13

You’re right about the EDD, but this is bread and butter for a multi licensed airline. This week was LPC on UK and Ireland. Next week it’s Germany. After that can’t remember. You don’t need to remember all 100 pages, just be able to interpret the ones relevant to today’s check.

I suspect you’re also right about the likelihood of a pan European licensing agency!

FlyingStone

3rd Apr 2021, 20:36

Bread and butter, sure. But it's definitely in orders of magnitude easier having all pilots with the same SOLI. One set of rules, one set of forms, one authority to deal with. Less complexity, smoother process.

Imagine a hypothetical airline which has 31 pilots. Which one would spend less resources (time = money) - the one where all pilots have licence issued by the same authority, or the one where every pilot has their licence issued by a different EASA member state (there are 31 of them)?

deltahotel

3rd Apr 2021, 20:41

No argument from me on the simplicity front - my life would be a whole lot easier, but I doubt my airline has much to do with individual licences or authorities. The bulk of the work is down to the TREs.

Since I’m doing LPC for my Head of Training soon I’ll ask him!

Arthur1815

4th Apr 2021, 02:30

It’s not just the EDD issue. There are numerous differences between NAAs on all manor of licensing and medical issues. E.g. examiner signature for LPC vs new licence issue; time to issue new rating (days vs months!); different acceptance of medical conditions, to name just a few.
COVID derogation management was also a nightmare with multiple different interpretations of EASA guidance.

deltahotel

4th Apr 2021, 08:44

I’m sure you’re correct. I just don’t know how we’ve managed over the years. Even now with currently 14 different states of issue.

Anyway, somehow I seem to have drifted the thread so apologies for that. Happy Easter all.

Always Moving

4th Apr 2021, 09:22

Dumbest thing was to ask the general population whether it was better to leave the EU or not as 90% of the voters did not have an damned clue about the political and economical consequences of voting yes or no. Those are the results. Anyway, UK/EASA should have mutual recognitions... anything different is just ridiculous.

That is the basics of democracy, everyone votes and every voter counts the same. I do not agree but.... that is how it is!

Why should it have mutual recognition? do not even have it with the FAA or TC and are commonwealth!

Contact Approach

4th Apr 2021, 12:18

Sounds like the best way to resolve the issue is for the U.K. to rejoin EASA in some capacity. Can’t see any other way forward really.

All hail Boris and his world beating leadership!

nickler

4th Apr 2021, 17:11

deltahotel

As others have said, every country has a different procedure for test notifications, paperwork filling and, most important, license endorsements. Some NAAs are VERY picky and the tiniest mistake in filling the papers or the license can easily get you reported to the NAA that issued your TRE authorization.
Sometimes I do understand the UK will to get rid of all this nonsense.

HURZ

5th Apr 2021, 03:32

I think there is not even 1 (one) pilot who would like to xfer from EASA to UK CAA.
The majority of the Brits voted for BREXIT. So now every one in the UK has to live with it. Sorry!
There are too many unemployed pilots in the EU, So take it as it is.
The work permit would be the second hurdle btw.

Contact Approach

5th Apr 2021, 07:56

Few pilots wanted to leave EASA so that’s hardly surprising. This whole “you voted for it, sorry” attitude is something else. Regardless of what people voted for few want this mess.

I’m also not entirely sure why those whining about Brits working across Europe are doing so. From what I see theres far more Europeans working in the U.K. than the other way around. If you exclude Ryr and EJ I’d guess there’s all but a handful of Brits working for EU carriers.

TURIN

5th Apr 2021, 13:17

According to the many, many pro brexit posts on the JB thread this is not true. WTO rules they shouted, We thrived outside the EU before we shall do so again, they said.

It's funny how its getting more and more difficult to find anyone that voted for brexit these days, A couple of years ago they were all standing outside Westminster waving great big union flags around.

Contact Approach

5th Apr 2021, 13:26

Turin,

Did they hurt your feelings or something?

TURIN

5th Apr 2021, 13:32

No, they hurt the economy, my children and grand children's chance of a prosperous future and unrestricted travel opportunities within Europe. They hurt the NI Good Friday agreement and reintroduced the prospect of nightly news reports of sectarian death and destruction. They have hurt many things, but my feelings are nothing in comparison.

bittersweetheart

5th Apr 2021, 14:08

Contact Approach

I think this entire thread is proof of the amount of people they ‘hurt’, and this is still within a relatively small group of people, and a very specific consequence of this supposed ‘will of the people’...

Perhaps a Petition ‘for the UK government to reconsider its relationship with EASA’ would be a slightly more humble wording, as opposed to demanding special treatment...

Contact Approach

5th Apr 2021, 16:29

I very much doubt the UK would reconsider under the current Gov, sadly. I can only see this getting worse before getting better.

bittersweetheart

5th Apr 2021, 18:42

I completely agree with your assessment of the state of affairs. Being a casualty of it all, I just feel there is a bit of misdirected animosity in the discussion. BREXIT did not necessarily have to involve leaving EASA, Galileo and other EU agencies; Norway, Switzerland and others seem to be enjoying their Sovereignty just fine.

These ‘red lines’ seem well beyond anything the public had any direct say in from my perspective. It’s easy to vote on blanket statements printed on the side of a bus. I can only assume the fine print was posted on the underside of said vehicle...

Contact Approach

5th Apr 2021, 18:47

Yeah i agree and that’s why those who keep posting you voted for it so deal with it aren’t entirely correct.

bittersweetheart

5th Apr 2021, 19:29

Still in agreement. But subsequently some kind of introspection needed, in some cases, before blaming the EU/EASA/whathaveyou for the failure to deliver said message on the mentioned bus. ‘Perhaps’ the author over-promised on the benefits of being a non-member. At least in the case of EASA.

So once more. Perhaps the petition should be rephrased: To the UK Parliament and its
MP’s responsible for a hard exit from EASA membership and affiliation; On behalf of those affected who were quite content being a part of this inter-governmental European Agency and the associated Flight Crew Licensing benefits...

Sovereignty politics apart, we will still continue to be operating in the same geographical aerospace...

Horsepowerrr

6th Apr 2021, 04:10

It’s ridiculous of course that both sides don’t recognize EASA licenses issued before 1-1-‘21 under grandfather rights regardless in which EASA country it was issued at the time. Pure bureaucracy and obstruction, serving no purpose.

Exams passed or licenses issued after Brexit not being accepted by both sides, as that was after the split, is fair enough I suppose.

Contact Approach

6th Apr 2021, 06:33

Exactly that. I genuinely don’t see the argument as to why licences weren’t grandfathered? What purpose did it really serve? Would have probably saved the SOLI paperwork. I also don’t understand why being part of the EU is so vital as others have rightly pointed out the likes of Norway, Switzerland etc are still members of EASA but not part of the EU. I get that the UK would have to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ but is that really so much of a big deal? It’s clear the UK Gov haven’t got the foggiest when it comes to aviation in any case so maybe that would have been a good thing!

vp89

6th Apr 2021, 17:04

Well... I am European living and working in the UK. I have EASA licence for the next two years still valid within the UK, but after that I will need a British licence. That Brexit is just a dream of great again britain by those pub visitors that flushed their brains in a daily pint of beer :) and absolutely no sense for the aviation community!

Ryanairrecruitment

7th Apr 2021, 16:32

this is a major issue for UK pilots who did not transfer before 31st Dec, this also means that currently Ryanair cannot accept apps for the AFA B737 type rating programme, the solution for UK licence holders is to contact somebody who will do a quick transfer course, Diamond Aviation in Sweden are doing something.

rogue leader

7th Apr 2021, 17:18

Another solution would be for Ryanair to accept UK licences for UK based roles.

FlyingStone

7th Apr 2021, 17:23

How would UK licences work for flying Irish-registered aircraft?

rogue leader

7th Apr 2021, 17:27

“It has been our long-standing position that a UK airline with a significant presence in the UK, such as Ryanair UK does, should not rely heavily on using wet-leased, foreign-registered aircraft to undertake their operations. Doing so undermines the competitiveness of the UK aviation industry and the effectiveness of the regulatory regime.”
UK CAA

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/UK-Civil-Aviation-Authority-response-to-Ryanair-press-release/

FlyingStone

7th Apr 2021, 17:56

There is nothing preventing EU airlines from basing EU-registered aircraft in the UK and operate UK-EU flights with those aircraft.

It would be extremely silly for any airline to move their fleet to G-reg, if large majority of their flights are UK-EU, as they'd lose the flexibility in not being able to operate inter-EU flights with those aircraft.

rogue leader

7th Apr 2021, 18:03

There is nothing preventing the EU empowering EASA to issue licences to former UK EASA licence holders either.

I'm sure operating EASA registered aircraft with EASA-licenced UK-based crews is financially the best option for Ryanair shareholders, in the same way employing pilots via bogus self-employment schemes or not recognising unions was until the regulators and courts caught up. There may be nothing preventing them doing this now, but who knows in the future.

Maybe Ryanair can use their considerable lobbying power to encourage the reciprocation of licence transfer.

Uplinker

7th Apr 2021, 18:51

vp89

Good for you, and thanks for your touching concern. The UK is being its usual accommodating self and allowing a generous leeway for EASA licence holders. Such a pity that the EU is not being "gentlemanly" by not providing a reciprocal leeway for UK licence holders. Certainly, grandfather rights should apply, since UK licences before Brexit were gained and awarded under EASA rules. Nothing has changed that.

lilpilot

7th Apr 2021, 19:00

You realise British people were also "European pilots that were unable to transfer their license to any other EASA authority because they were working for a UK operator." :ugh:

You realise there's no point of transfering to an EASA authority if one has no right to live and work in a member state.

Denti

7th Apr 2021, 19:07

Sick

Indeed. Just all of irish and british crews. But certainly not a huge problem at the moment. However, without technically being based in the UK, but rather seconded there on a temporary base, that might still be possible, after all, the TCA makes it very much clear that wet leasing from the EU into the UK remains possible, just not the other way round.

rogue leader

7th Apr 2021, 19:07

lilpilot, do you realise UK citizens have the right to live and work in Ireland? Do you realise there are jobs outside of the EU which require an EASA licence for various reasons?

FlyingStone

7th Apr 2021, 19:19

There is nothing preventing the EU empowering EASA to issue licences to former UK EASA licence holders either.

And the benefit to the EU in all this would be...?

Therein lies a need for British and uk settled-status pilots with EASA licences... that's now a finite, and eventually dwindling supply.

Not sure if it's necessary a finite supply. What's stopping British citizens from pursuing training and licencing under EASA?

rogue leader

7th Apr 2021, 19:24

And the benefit to the UK of Ryanair operating EASA-registered aircraft with EASA-licenced pilots based in the UK is?

Nothing stopping them as I can see, but why should those who have already held EASA licences need to do it all again?

Denti

7th Apr 2021, 19:47

Good question, I wondered that myself. But in the end, the UK signed an international agreement that allows just that. Not that it is yet ratified by the EU, after all, it might still sink which would bring another whole host of problems, like the immediate and complete loss of traffic rights of the EU into the UK and vice versa.

FlyingStone

7th Apr 2021, 20:12

And the benefit to the UK of Ryanair operating EASA-registered aircraft with EASA-licenced pilots based in the UK is?

As Denti points out, UK signed the agreement which allows this. DHL UK benefit from the same thing on the other side of the (now hard) border.

Nothing stopping them as I can see, but why should those who have already held EASA licences need to do it all again?

I think the same rule applies for EASA licence holders, who have never held a UK EASA licence, and wish to obtain a UK Part-FCL licence:

Holders of EASA licences issued after 1 Jan 2021 are required to complete training as recommended by a UK ATO, complete all theory exams and a skill test with a UK examiner and to gain a UK medical certificate appropriate to that licence.

Gordomac

8th Apr 2021, 09:29

How can one be 'based' in the UK unless one has the right to work/reside ? In days of gold, therein was the problem first. One of my dreams was to live and work as an airline pilot in the USA. Getting the right to live & work was the first, major hurdle. Same with Canada. Gave up.

Later, lived and worked with an Italian carrier 'based in Milan' on work/res permits and licence validation. Worked just fine. Just prior, in m y former company, Italian division required full UK ATPL writtens and type ratings to fly our UK registered aircraft out of the UK, just for extensive line/training. Politicians just trying to close up potential political loop-holes, I guess.Doesn't half create problems and divisions though.

Dark Stanley

8th Apr 2021, 09:29

Quote....And the benefit to the UK of Ryanair operating EASA-registered aircraft with EASA-licenced pilots based in the UK is?

Nothing stopping them as I can see, but why should those who have already held EASA licences need to do it all again?

Ryanair created a UK AOC with 1 G reg aircraft on it. Then tried to wet lease hundreds of EI reg aircraft in. Which was stopped, rules state only 10% of fleet can be wet leased.

Quote...As Denti points out, UK signed the agreement which allows this. DHL UK benefit from the same thing on the other side of the (now hard) border.

Really. So you’re saying G reg aircraft can fly point to point in Europe with UK licence only pilots...Amazing.

Denti

8th Apr 2021, 09:46

Well, cargo is a special case to begin with, under TCA rules. But even without going there, the TCA does provide for wet lease from the UK to the EU, however, only in very limited and special cases. So it is not something that can happen on an everyday level. The other way round there is no such caveat.

For air cargo the TCA provides the express possibility to have bilateral agreements between EU member states and the UK about fifth freedom rights on a reciprocal level. No such provision is given for other air transport operations.

But of course, both areas can dry lease without any restriction from each other area, so there might be D-registered aircraft flying with UK licensed crew within the UK, and G-registered aircraft with EU licensed crew in Germany for example. I have no idea how DHL UK currently operates, but it could be interesting how it works within the confines of the TCA.

The TCA provides no further freedoms apart from 3 to 5, and 5 only for air cargo.

Contact Approach

9th Apr 2021, 10:29

The UK needs to rejoin EASA, is this not obvious`?

Dark Stanley

9th Apr 2021, 15:55

Quote....But of course, both areas can dry lease without any restriction from each other area, so there might be D-registered aircraft flying with UK licensed crew within the UK, and G-registered aircraft with EU licensed crew in Germany for example. I have no idea how DHL UK currently operates, but it could be interesting how it works within the confines of the TCA.

If then, as a cargo operator you can dry lease in and out and operate an EASA reg aircraft on a UK licence, then it seems it matters very little what the TCA says anyway.

Still seems a precarious way to run a large business. I know for a fact the French impounded a G-Reg cargo airframe that was operating point to point in France, and this was before Brexit. Cost an exuberant fee to settle too....Be amazed if they weren’t waiting to pounce again.

So yes, it may well prove to be very interesting....

Groundloop

9th Apr 2021, 16:29

Contact Approach

Not to the politicians who take these decisions!!!

deltahotel

9th Apr 2021, 17:28

@DS. I may be mistaken but you seem to have thing about how DHK goes about it’s business - any particular reason? For me if the regulators are ok with it then so am I. If they ever change that, then I guess we’ll deal with it then.

I’m not aware of EASA reg being crewed by UK licences.

lilpilot

11th Apr 2021, 02:44

lilpilot, do you realise UK citizens have the right to live and work in Ireland? Do you realise there are jobs outside of the EU which require an EASA licence for various reasons?

The CTA gives the right to to live and work in Ireland, not through Ireland in other countries in the EU. Any operator trying to circumvent EU law by using the CTA as a trojan horse will be dealt with, Ryanair has been under scrutiny for violating EU employment laws already, as a repeat offender authorities can't wait to add a couple big fines on their account. But what matters is pilots may also get the shortest end of the stick.
With that said it would have been prudent to grandfather in all professional qualifications that were issued during EU membership. Unfortunately this concept didn't make the final agreement, other professions are struggling too: https://www.archdaily.com/959569/uk-architects-no-longer-recognized-in-eu-countries-following-brexit

I see from your posts that your ATPL exams is your main concern, I do hope they are working on these "ground certificates" and they'll get the proper acknowledgement, on every side. In the event that there's a huge runup and they need to find every single pilot pronto, you can bet on it, that common sense will return to them quickly.

Smooth Airperator

19th Apr 2021, 12:32

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/566x686/capture_174962e74f086c1e83a98d388fa5029a8d975652.jpg
Just to highlight it still happens...

German jobs for German people by stealth. The French do it too.

Contact Approach

19th Apr 2021, 13:02

Most operators across Europe do that.

FR9999

19th Apr 2021, 13:24

Wrong, it says German speakers. There are many people who are not from Germany, but who speak German. Same goes for French. The inability of being multilingual doesn’t warrant accusations of only hiring certain nationalities.

FR9999

19th Apr 2021, 13:37

there are many Italians who live in the Piemonte or Lombardy area that either work for German companies or commute to Austria or Switzerland. Maybe you didn’t realize, but the north of Italy is full of German manufacturing.

To indulgence further in your ignorance, besides German speaking countries as Switzerland and Austria, there are many Dutch, Luxembourg,Belgian, Polish and Scandinavians that do speak German.

Maybe odd for you, but a large portion of the European citizens speak more than English as a second tongue.

iome

19th Apr 2021, 14:17

And?
If I ran a company I'd like to hire who I want to hire

aerolearner

19th Apr 2021, 14:30

As a matter of fact, German is an official language in a couple of regions in Italy, including the one I live in.

rogue leader

19th Apr 2021, 15:34

lilpilot, thank you for the reply. I was referring to the fact there may be jobs in Ireland which UK citizens are no longer eligible to apply for as their UK EASA licence (valid for life at time of issue) has been rescinded and replaced with a UK licence, not a back-door into living and working elsewhere in the EU. Additionally there are jobs around the world, outside of the EU territorially, which require EASa licences.

To clarify, my main concern is for those who have completed EASA ground examinations and flight tests before 1/1/21 (in any EASA state), and were issued a valid for life EASA licence, but who now have ended up with a UK licence and are unable to get an EASA licence without re-doing it all. This includes those who always had a UK EASA licence, and those who transferred SOLI to a UK EASA licence, often as a condition of employment.

The ability to SOLI out of the UK before 1/1/21 wasn't particularly useful for those working in the UK who would then potentially not be able to sit their next LPC unless their company had EASA licensed examiners and equipment, and would then not be able to fly until they applied for a received their UK licence (after 1/4/21 and with no timescales given).

Added to that is the fact that non-UK EASA licence holders who gained their licences before 1/1/21, doing identical tests and training, can fly in the UK until the end of 2022 using their EASA licences, and gain a UK licence with no additional training or testing. And then the icing on the cake of certain operators demanding EASA licences for UK based roles.

Life is not fair I guess, and while the politicians responsible for this won't be losing any sleep, it has successfully divided us professional aviators who have no real recourse as our regulators are just doing what they are told by the lawmakers.

Denti

19th Apr 2021, 17:11

UK EASA licensed TREs could sign the license from any EASA state before the end of last year. However, one had to bring the national forms for them to fill out and comply with the relevant rules around them, but that is certainly not rocket science. So yes, one could SOLI out before the transition period was over, but of course, that took a minimum amount of work.

And no, life is not fair, it never was and never will be, most people learn that very early on. Kindergarden is a normal place where that starts to sink in. In this case it was of course aided by the fact that anything to do with the ECJ, even if it was very far removed, was completely impossible to accept for Lord Snowflake, while the EU is a very much rule based organization (which does not mean that they can't change the rules very fast if needed) and therefore follows its own rules. The UK wanted to be a third country, Ok, lets start from the status of a third country without any relation to the EU and negotiate upwards from that. Aviation and especially licensing was not very important to either side.

As to the requirement by Discover: not unusual anywhere in the EU, but in this case probably even excusable, after all German is by far the language with the most native speakers in the EU both before and after brexit. Close to a 100 million people in Europe do speak some form of german natively, in quite a few countries, and some do learn it in school, as most of Europe teaches at least two foreign languages in school (one of them usually being english).

rogue leader

19th Apr 2021, 19:04

You're absolutely right, but not for the period between 1/1/21 and getting your UK licence issued, which you couldn't apply for until 1/4/21, and which no timescale can be provided by CAA. So even if you were lucky enough to be due your LPC in December, or could convince your employer to do an early LPC in December, you would have no idea if you would have a UK licence by your next LPC. The process for applying for issue of the UK licence was not finalised by 1/1/21, just that it would be available at some point.

Added to that, realistically you would have needed to apply for SOLI by September time 2020 to know you would receive your non-UK EASA licence by 31/3/21, which is the cut-off off for being able to use it in the UK under validation until you got your UK licence issued - which you can't apply for until 1/4/21 and have no idea how long it will take to arrive. So now you've got to get your LPC done in September 2020, and hope you have your UK licence by August 2021, but with no knowledge of how that process will look or how long it will take. That's also assuming you don't need a new type rating added to your licence for example in the meantime.

In conclusion you can decide for yourself how much "work" was involved, but you sure needed to enjoy gambling if you had a UK job you wanted to make sure you could continue flying in for the next year or so - so no I don't believe it was an option for many of your fellow professionals.

The rest is all politics and out of our hands.

lear999wa

19th Apr 2021, 20:28

Smooth Airperator

Instead of whinging about how unfair the world is, you could have spent your time researching the ITALIAN province of South tyrol. For instance, I just learned that 62.3% of the population of South Tyrol speaks German as a first language. Who would have known, Italians that speak German.

hans brinker

20th Apr 2021, 00:48

https://jakubmarian.com/average-number-of-languages-spoken-by-the-eu-population/

Raised bilingual Dutch/Spanish, had 6 years high school English, French & German.

Bus Driver Man

20th Apr 2021, 18:58

There are other nationalities working at Air France, Lufthansa, Swiss and KLM. They speak French, German or Dutch.
They all meat the requirement of speaking the (or one of the) national language(s). There's nothing unfair about that.
A language requirement and a requirement for the right to work in that country is not discriminating.

Banana Joe

20th Apr 2021, 21:30

Smooth Airperator

Here I am.

deltahotel

20th Apr 2021, 21:32

Go skiing in the Dolomites - everyone speaks Italian and German. (And probably English).

ps. If I ran a German company I’d want German speakers. Likewise France, Italy, Spain etc

Theholdingpoint

21st Apr 2021, 17:42

Smooth Airperator

You have no idea what you're talking about.

hans brinker

22nd Apr 2021, 04:21

Smooth Airperator

https://www.mallorcazeitung.es/

largest newspaper in the Balearic Islands......

Landflap

22nd Apr 2021, 09:08

After the demise of Air Europe in 1991, Condor took a whole bunch but they all had to do the full German ATPL. End of season, I think only a couple remained, German speakers only.
I went to Holland. Only did Air Law for full validation. Very hard to find a Dutch speaker anywhere in Holland. Funny old world eh ?

Alrosa

22nd Apr 2021, 09:17

Anyone know what the process will be for those working for an EU operator with EASA licence and and also holding the new U.K. Part-FCL licence when getting the LPC revalidated ? EASA TRE revalidates for EASA, but can the new expiry date be transferred to the new U.K. Part-FCL or will the pilot need to undertake two separate LPCs?

deltahotel

22nd Apr 2021, 09:36

I’m currently TRE on IAA licence and I can sign EASA and UK licences (at least until end 2022), so if someone had both licences and it was all in date and appropriate and my airline allowed it (and it will) then I would sign both. Because it would entail extra paperwork (two notifications, post check reports etc) I would expect extra beer.

Once I get my UK licence back I will put my uk number on the uk signing and my IAA number on the EASA signing.

Alrosa

22nd Apr 2021, 09:43

Thanks deltahotel, much appreciated.

Horsepowerrr

26th Apr 2021, 22:32

Is there anything going on behind the scenes in the EU and UK on this lack of grandfather rights for exchange of EASA licenses that are issued before Brexit?
As it’s so insane that my non UK, but EASA doctor did my medical the last decade under EASA rules and now I have to do a whole new initial EASA medical as my flying license and with that my medical were in the past changed to a UK EASA license.
It’s an unnecessary destruction of qualifications and just obstructing pilots for what purpose? The Europarlement and European Committee should correct this.

Banana Joe

27th Apr 2021, 08:46

No, you can blame the UK Government. Only them.

You were warned, you didn't act. Deal with it.

It's this simple, the UK did everything.

Denti

27th Apr 2021, 09:24

Considering the EU commission just threatened the UK with remedial tariffs and quotas as the UK continues to be in breach of the TCA i do not think any further negotiation is really taking place on anything. It is kinda sad that things have deteriorated to such a state, but i am afraid it was, in the end, unavoidable. Things probably will get worse before they can change for the better.

bittersweetheart

27th Apr 2021, 13:09

Horsepowerrr

The UK unilaterally decided to leave EASA. They had the choice to stay in. They have the choice to re-join. Not really up to Europarliament or Committee, is it...

Contact Approach

27th Apr 2021, 14:15

It’s not exactly horsepowers fault is it? There’s no need to throw fuel on the fire. It still amazes me how some here are criticising fellow pilots for the mess they find themselves unwillingly caught up in.
It’s absolutely pathetic.

Banana Joe

27th Apr 2021, 15:29

They are in this mess due to the UK Government, not the EU or EASA.
Your continuous attempt at blaming the EU and EASA is pathetic.

bittersweetheart

27th Apr 2021, 16:36

Contact Approach

Nobody is blaming individual pilots for this. But individual pilots are blaming the EU and EASA for the current state. Nothing wrong with adding another viewpoint then?

Horsepowerrr

28th Apr 2021, 02:37

Banana Joe, if that’s all you can say then just don’t as you made your point before and yes we could have all SOLI’d before, but many didn’t for various reasons. That’s not the point though.

The point is, why doesn’t EASA give grandfather rights to pilots who had a UK EASA license before Brexit happened? And is this still being looked at or considered, like it has with many other professions and their qualifications?

As why is this so bad to do this and why don’t they look after the people who are licensed according to their own system and rules? And why obstruct the pilots? What good does it do? The UK doesn’t do this and doesn’t make it so difficult and does accept EASA licenses.
And that is on the EU/ EASA as that is their choice.

One could wonder in a way how this is possible in a world where equality seems more important than ever before. And EASA decides to disadvantage a certain group of people who just got their license issued by an authority that was operating according to EASA rules, but now isn’t a friend anymore.

Denti

28th Apr 2021, 04:56

There is, again, quite a bit to be unpacked here. Most that had any qualms about the post-brexit situation seem to have been able to SOLI out or do not care as they do not have the right to live and work in the EU anyway. Just judging by the number of posters on the SOLI threads compared to this one. Therefore, not a big problem right now for the industry.

Yes, of course the whole mess was caused by the UK government. First by the decision to leave the EU, and then, by the decision to just want to have a very thin trade deal and the wish to be treated as a normal third country, none of which has a license acceptance or grandfather scheme with the EU. EASA in itself is not deciding anything there, it is simply applying the letter of the EU regulations, nothing more, nothing less. The EU commission could of course negotiate something else if their counterparts wish to do that, if there is any incentive for them to do so, which would be only the case if there was a major demand from member states.

And of course, UK issued licenses were fully recognized as long as the UK CAA was a local authority under the EASA oversight. Since january 1st the CAA is not seen as a competent authority anymore since it does not have the full capability as a regulator, shown in fact by the willy-nilly acceptance of licenses over which they have absolutely no regulatory oversight. The CAA has to earn the trust of other authorities over time, but has not yet done so.

There has been no change to any EU regulated profession as none of the 19 TCA committees has started working yet, however, many professions are not regulated on an EU level and can be regulated differently in each member state. Currently there is no ongoing process to change the status of any EU regulated profession, which does include pilots. There is no need for that as there is no shortage in suitably qualified personnel in the EU anyway, therefore the UK would have to give the EU major concessions to change the status quo, the UK is currently seen in the EU as unreliable or even hostile and would have a lot of convincing to do.

ndue345

28th Apr 2021, 07:17

That doesn’t explain why the EASA don’t want to recognize the training done in any state members (other than UK) and issued on a UK licence.

it’s been 4 months and no guidelines have been published.

Therefore force pilots to retake those training. The conversion as a 3rd country doesn’t cover instructor certificate.

Contact Approach

28th Apr 2021, 09:13

There is no valid argument as to why training undertaken pre-brexit, under EASA and completed across the EU is no longer recognised other than political nonsense.

Denti

28th Apr 2021, 09:38

It is much simpler than that though. The UK wanted to be treated as a third country. Third countries licenses are not recognized in the EU. It doesn't matter if one did its complete training in non-UK EU countries, only if the license held at the time the UK became a third country was one issued by the UK or not. It is really as simple as that. Leaving the EU did in fact reset every and all things formerly regulated by the EU to a non-EU recognized status, except if regulated differently in the TCA or the WA.

Again, to change that there would need to be an incentive to do that on an EU level. And to be fair, for british airlines there is probably no wish to do that either, as it is in their favor to trap pilots within their regulatory region and therefore being able to drive down conditions even faster without any fear of them escaping easily elsewhere.

Big_D

28th Apr 2021, 10:03

Denti

This is what the Russian CAA has been doing for years for the exact same reasons.

likair

28th Apr 2021, 10:45

Same situation. I am an EU jobless pilot with a useless UK licence......:confused:

Horsepowerrr

28th Apr 2021, 18:17

Contact Approach

Exactly right. We have to deal with what the politicians decide, like with everything else.
It isn’t a law though in this case. It’s EASA’s choice to still accept their own organization licenses from before or not. UK or not, it was and technically still is an EASA license.

Its as if a car dealer argues with the manufacturer resulting in a break and change of brand for the dealer.
The dealer will still accept and service the cars of the manufacturer, but the manufacturer tells customers the cars of their brand they bought from that dealer before the break won’t be seen as their brand cars anymore and won’t be accepted at any other brand dealership. 🤦🏼‍♂️

What EASA does is by their choice and doesn’t punish the UK, but just individual pilots who spend a lot of time and money to get their EASA license. Completely unnecessary. No politician will stop or say it’s unacceptable EASA will accept pilots who got a license fully IAW EASA regulations before Brexit. And why would they? As those are issued under EU/ EASA regulations. It’s simply unnecessary obstruction that serve little to no purpose. Period.

Denti

28th Apr 2021, 18:56

Again, EASA does not have a say in that. EASA does not make laws or international agreements, those are negotiated on commission level and decided by the European Parliament. And it would have required primary law to recognize licenses issued by a third country. It was offered to the UK of course, on a reciprocal non-time limited way, together with all other EU regulated professions. The UK declined. Same as with the other professions, the UK would have to make watertight assurances that it will be fully and dynamically aligned to EU regulations, following all judgements from the ECJ. Again, it was the UKs choice to decline reciprocal treatment, and the EU simply follows the letter of its agreements and laws, unlike the UK of course. It is basically the same case as with border controls. The EU had those running from day one, the UK is unable to do so and therefore does not fulfill the most basic WTO rule there is. Same for licenses, as it was unable to issue new CAA licenses in a timely manner it had to accept EASA licenses, not because it wanted to play nice, simply because it was unable to work properly.

Yes, those too slow to act fall through the cracks, that is always the case with a deadline. It has been nearly four months, by now one could have done a new initial EASA medical and the required ATO training and checks to get his EASA license, the 14 theoretical exams are apparently accepted in some EASA countries if written in that country, as are hours if properly documented.

Alex Whittingham

28th Apr 2021, 22:20

This is a ridiculous arguement. Let us suppose that the UK had offered the EU reciprocal non-time limited licence recognition provided they submitted to UK court jurisdiction. Would they take it? Of course not. This whole posture stems from the concept that the EU is somehow bigger, and more authoritative than the indvidual nation state. Some believe that to be so, many others not.

Contact Approach

29th Apr 2021, 06:57

Denti,

The situation is absurd. You can say what you want but that is a fact. EASA could absolutely issue a new EASA licence, similarly to what the U.K. is doing, to those who before brexit previously held an EASA licence.
Anything else is political nonsense and helps no pilot I know.

Sick

29th Apr 2021, 07:06

As the hostility and protectionism of Europe becomes more apparent by the day, I dearly wish UK Aviation regulation and licensing would pivot to America's FAA, like the so many other industries who are simply turning away from Europe to nations and blocks who actually want to do business.

Contact Approach

29th Apr 2021, 07:14

Id fully support the UK joining the FAA and negotiating some sort of green card scheme for pilots and vice versa.

FlyingStone

29th Apr 2021, 07:33

Anything else is political nonsense and helps no pilot I know. So is Brexit and it also benefits only very few people, mostly those with deep pockets.

Id fully support the UK joining the FAA and negotiating some sort of green card scheme for pilots and vice versa.

Talk about unicorns...

CW247

29th Apr 2021, 08:01

What some of you don't get is that the UK CAA's decision honour EASA licenses was to protect UK airlines who would overnight have a headache on their hands. Majority of EASA license holders operating out of UK basis are not Brits. This was for the job protection of Europeans and to ensure airlines could continue to operate with a full workforce (though Covid ruined that plan anyway). All of this proves the point once again that the UK provides refuge to way more European pilots than the other way around.

Denti

29th Apr 2021, 08:07

Sick

Really? Hostility? If a country leaves a club all its certificates in that club are null and void, it is simply a normal consequence, there is no ill will involved. And of course, EASA made everyone aware of that for more than 3 years.

Contact Approach

29th Apr 2021, 08:16

The UK should abandon EASA and join the FAA. Far greater opportunities. Europe is a sinking ship.

Banana Joe

29th Apr 2021, 08:18

Again, how are you going to make use of those opportunities without at least a Green Card?

bittersweetheart

29th Apr 2021, 08:20

Sick

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black…

Here I was thinking that it was the U.K. that ran a protectionist, hostile, anti-EU, BREXIT campaign. And unilaterally turned down every single offer to stay in cooperation with its closest neighbours. I haven’t heard of many companies running away from the worlds biggest trading bloc, but quite a few seem to be moving away from the U.K. post BREXIT, yes?

And in the same context of protectionism, mentioning the US and FAA as somehow being better. Did anybody not hear about ‘America First’?

Yes. People who did not want, or felt they couldn’t, SOLI out in time, are victims of the U.K. leaving EASA. As are all other formerly EU licensed professionals who can no longer do business freely like they used to.

FYI. If you want an FAA License, the process is actually quite quick and straight forward if you hold an ICAO License. Knock yourself out

Contact Approach

29th Apr 2021, 08:37

Brexit is over and its time for a new chapter. Good bye Europe, hello America! Quite nice to get rid of the many language barriers too.

Contact Approach

29th Apr 2021, 08:40

Banana Joe

You see, thats the beauty with being independent, you’re able to negotiate new and prosperous agreements.

FlyingStone

29th Apr 2021, 08:48

The UK should abandon EASA and join the FAA. Far greater opportunities.

UK has already left EASA. What kind of opportunities would you expect by UK joining the FAA (even though I don't think this is even possible under USA federal law)?

Brexit is over and its time for a new chapter. Good bye Europe, hello America! Quite nice to get rid of the many language barriers too.

UK has been so far unable to negotiate some sort of bespoke trade agreement with the USA - and there doesn't seem to be an optimistic outlook on that front. I doubt you'll be getting any green cards for pilots soon.

Banana Joe

29th Apr 2021, 08:50

Keep dreaming, you need a reality check. Why not only pilots and not also the other professionals that facing consequences of your stupid Government's actions? Why have Americans not done it with their Canadian or Mexican neighbours and why would they do it with someone on the other end of the Atlantic?

You need a solid reality check.

Sick

29th Apr 2021, 08:58

Hardly, negan, and don't get me started on the EUs wrongful triggering of article 16, while hypocritically making threats about borders checks, which with their current siege strategy, only serves to stoke the violence.. Anyway, let's forget about green cards - a separate issue, and it's unlikely in the extreme. The FAA on the other hand, is a breeze for crew and operators to deal with, practical, and safe. I think the UK CAA is to small to stand alone in modern aviation, and being stuck with being licenced by a little known minnow authority, in the international arena, is very unattractive.

FlyingStone

29th Apr 2021, 09:01

If only there was a world-renowed aviation regulating authority, with which UK had nearly 100% full alignment already. If only...

Contact Approach

29th Apr 2021, 09:04

Hahahaha! Knew I’d get him! I’ll get my coat.

bittersweetheart

29th Apr 2021, 09:08

Contact Approach

Hahaha. Best of luck to ya. So far the best UK has managed is to mirror the agreements already held by the EU. And notably nothing agreed with the US, your supposed new best friend…

Exactly what improved leverage in negotiations do you achieve as a country of 502 billion pounds GDP (UK 2020), vs 13 trillion USD (EU 2020).

Extending your logic based on these statements, anybody that have been freed from the EASA shackles should be happy now that they finally have a proud sovereign UK License. So no need for this thread. Right?

Banana Joe

29th Apr 2021, 09:16

Sick

Let's assume such a deal was to go forward, can you explain me why only pilots and not other professionals like the architects, accountants, analysts, etc? It's not like we're a class of privileged brats, are we?
And they aren't short of pilots either.

You can have all the licenses you want, but you won't go far without the ability to live in the US or EU unrestricted.

Sick

29th Apr 2021, 09:26

I say again, nothing to do with British pilots working there. I'm talking about the aviation regulatory structure, whether it's just an rough alignment, or through to the Belgrano being like an FAA regional office. I dunno. But everything I have encountered with the FAA has been sweetness and light compared to the UK or EASA.

Gordomac

29th Apr 2021, 09:27

Green cards, Res visa, work permits. One world and very political. Licence recognition, can get very arrogant. A marriage (?) forget it. Another time, looking at the Canadian route, I was told by a Canadian Company that they would "love to hire " me but needed me to first produce a Res Visa. Canadian Embassy would not unless I had a specific job offer. I told them that the Company first needed a Res Visa and asked if both sides might entertain a discussion. Never heard from either again and just dreamed of sipping a Jack & Coke in Vancouver Heights !

Banana Joe

29th Apr 2021, 09:28

Sick

We agree that the FAA is a breeze to work with. And I would argue that in Euope we could learn a couple of things on how to structure flight training.

likair

6th May 2021, 10:46

Hi,

It seems there is a variation from EASA on acceptance of ATPL exams.
I successfully completed mine in 2009. :rolleyes:

FCL.025 (c) states the following:
Validity period(1) The successful completion of the theoretical knowledge examinations will be valid:(i) for the issue of a light aircraft pilot licence or a private pilot licence, for a period of 24 months;(ii) for the issue of a commercial pilot licence, instrument rating (IR) or en route instrument rating (EIR), for a period of 36 months;(iii) the periods in (i) and (ii) shall be counted from the day when the pilot successfully completes the theoretical knowledge examination, in accordance with (b)(2).(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of:(i) an IR entered in the licence; or(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that licence.

TURIN

6th May 2021, 11:04

There is no valid argument as to why training undertaken pre-brexit, under EASA and completed across the EU is no longer recognised other than political nonsense.

I'm probably repeating myself here,

The UK has decided that it does not want to be governed by the ECJ. The ECJ enforces the regulations as dictated by EASA.

How, if the UK has left the EU, can the ECJ enforce the law on a UK citizen when the UK does not recognise the authority of the ECJ? It can't. Hence, the situation in which we find our selves.

Contact Approach

6th May 2021, 11:26

Turin,

I think you are missing the point. The UK have little to do with training conducted in EASA states pre Brexit. Why cant those who conducted Integrated / Modular courses at FTE Jerez pre Brexit apply for a new EASA licence based on this training?

A UK citizen can hold an EASA licence so whats your point?

hijack

25th Jan 2023, 15:39

Alex Whittingham

25th Jan 2023, 16:10

hijack sorry, I don't. States tried to be flexible in the early days but the regulatory pressure is relentless. Always worth trying Malta I suppose, but not with much expectation

EGGW

25th Jan 2023, 18:16

ToppersTwr

5th Feb 2024, 14:10

Danish have been very helpful. I should have the EASA ATPL back in my hands very shortly. Has taken more or less 9 months. 3 months to get Initial Medical appointment. Got medical issued by Austro control, within 3 weeks (had a couple of issues, old age). The started SOLI to Danish CAA. Got EASA skills test on a type I have current. SoLI took 9 weeks. Now just awaiting licence issue. Danish CAA do have quite a backlog, of UK peeps. The Danish verified my UK licence with UK CAA.

Irish gone off the rails by all accounts. Maltese helpful apparently as well.

EGGW.
Hi EGGW

Thanks for the insight there. I was hoping you could perhaps just add a few details to your experience if that's ok? I am currently a B737 Capt for the red yorkshire airline and looking to follow in your footsteps. Can you confirm that the process you followed was, EASA medical (Dr. Christopher J. KING does Danish CAA medicals), skills test, submit to Danish CAA? No exams? If you could highlight anything I've missed I'd really appreciate it.

Kind regards,

TT

EGGW

6th Feb 2024, 10:10

EASA Initial needed, unless you hold an EASA medical currently. Suggest you e mail Danish CAA, am not sure if there was a time limit on former UK CAA EASA licence to Euroland EASA like I did. The Danish CAA do respond quickly. I didn't have to do exams.

The process took 6-7 months

Message me for more info, if you need help.

EGGW

rogue leader

11th Feb 2024, 16:59

The UK Licence is a 3rd country ICAO licence so any credit towards gaining an EASA licence based on a UK licence are under those rules. The rules are available on the EASA website but in simple terms for example to gain an EASA ATPL(H) based upon a UK ATPL(H) you are credited:

- Flight training.
- Theory exams if you are within 7 years of when you passed your EASA ATPL(H) exams or the expiry of your last PC.
- You'll still need to do an ATPL(H) check ride and your UK ATPL(H) will need have a current PC.
- Crediting of R/T licence and English language seems to differ with authorities.

Austro were very good for me, but are not even replying to a colleague, so your mileage may vary.