Hawk incident near Culdrose

[KPax]

Reports on the news of a double ejection from a Hawk near Culdrose, hope all is well with the crew.

[TRENT210]

Coastguard and air ambulance have landed at the scene

[Leecj1]

Oh my, I was briefly following one on FR24 earlier too in that neck of the woods. I see the Falcon 20s from BOH are circling close by. Wishing the best...

[NutLoose]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/cornwall-plane-crash-royal-navy-hawk-t1-goes-down-emergency-services-at-scene/ar-BB1eWSL5?li=AAnZ9Ug

One witness said: "I saw 2 parachutes. Don't know where the plane crash landed though. Hope everyone ok"

Fingers crossed.

[Treadstone1]

Reported on BBc news, both crew where able to walk away after the incident.

[Non Emmett]

Local press reports crashed In to a field near St. Martin which is on The Lizard. XX189 report adds. Hope above post re crew is accuarate.

[dead_pan]

Coastguard and air ambulance have landed at the scene

Coastguard helo is now heading north.

Fingers crossed all involved are okay.

[dead_pan]

Devon & Cornwall Police have just Tweeted that 2 people have been treated at the scene and are now being taken to hospital, and that their injuries are not thought to be life threatening or changing.

[MATELO]

Oh my, I was briefly following one on FR24 earlier too in that neck of the woods. I see the Falcon 20s from BOH are circling close by. Wishing the best...

It popped up on the alerts for FR24 just before 09:30, it then disappeared over the water about 5 miles south of Falmouth.

[dead_pan]

Martin-Baker have just Tweeted about another successful ejection courtesy of their products, so I'm guessing all is well...

[EXEL1966]

Oh my, I was briefly following one on FR24 earlier too in that neck of the woods. I see the Falcon 20s from BOH are circling close by. Wishing the best...

736 hawk operating the 'Thursday War' ? along with the Draken DA20s?

[srobarts]

From Cornwall Air Ambulance FB Page.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/625x575/screen_shot_03_25_21_at_11_28_am_04ca5cde6be63cf0bb5d17ee714 fee6b45018aa3.png

[MPN11]

Further News link from ITV with images of wreckage ...

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2021-03-25/police-respond-to-plane-crash-in-cornwall-latest-updates

Glad both occupants are safe.

[STENDEC North]

Lost on the approach to 29 by the looks of. Great to hear both are safe and well, MB have something in the post for you.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1480x2000/mb_patch_2_d04b287600eaaf83ee511065bda32870f827323c.jpg

[Tankertrashnav]

Do they use Irvin parachutes (or the successor company)? If so I assume there will be caterpillar club badges on the way eventually as well.

[NutLoose]

Red Arrows are safe after Ministry of Defence plans to retire entire fleet of 76 Hawk(Multi-page thread 1 2 3)Needs changing

Red Arrows are safe after Ministry of Defence plans to retire entire fleet of 765 Hawk(Multi-page thread 1 2 3)

So glad they are safe and well.

[Union Jack]

Sadly, now one less T1 to be considered. I'm also sure that I'm not the only one who feels that the MB patch is, shall we say, capable of more than one interpretation.

Jack

[BEagle]

Very glad to hear that the crew are OK!

XX189? What a shame - I first flew it over 40 years ago on the first of the new TWU courses with 63 Sqn at Heaven-in-Devon.

6 October 1980 Self/solo WC6 (DNCO camera U/S) 0:40

[Fareastdriver]

UK Serials was pretty quick.

d/d 23/02/1978, w/o 25/03/2021

If that had been built by the Wright Brothers it would have still been operating during the 2nd World War.

[NutLoose]

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/royal-navy-jet-crash-reaction-5227599#source=breaking-news

[Ken Scott]

XX189? What a shame - I first flew it over 40 years ago on the first of the new TWU courses with 63 Sqn at Heaven-in-Devon.

A few years ago when I had some time to kill & I was in something of a reflective mood I went through my old logbooks to work out how many ac I’d flown had been subsequently lost during the nearly 40 years since I’d started flying.

I totalled up 17 which was rather sobering (though none were at my hands!) I count myself fortunate to have got away with it especially given some of the near misses.

Very relieved to hear that both crew walked away, I hope their injuries are minor & they’re back in the air soon.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Lost on the approach to 29 by the looks of. Great to hear both are safe and well, MB have something in the post for you.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1480x2000/mb_patch_2_d04b287600eaaf83ee511065bda32870f827323c.jpg
.....and an excellent offer on a Bremont MB1 watch !

[419]

Do military aircraft such as the Hawk in question have flight data recorders or CVR's fitted to them?

[CAEBr]

Do military aircraft such as the Hawk in question have flight data recorders or CVR's fitted to them?

Broadly yes, as far as newer types are concerned. The TMk1 has an ADR but no CVR. Fitment of a CVR has been recommended in several BoI/SI's but the MoD haven't yet taken the plunge. With the prospect of a 2030 oos date interest was being raised again, but with the latest defence review that now looks unlikely.

[Wirbelsturm]

Do military aircraft such as the Hawk in question have flight data recorders or CVR's fitted to them?

Not in my time they didn't (thank god!). Not sure about now but I, personally, wouldn't think so. ^^^^^^ I accede to greater wisdom above! ^^^^^^

IIRC Thursday war 'let's be a missile' jaunts were normally done solo. Often taking a punter in the back for a jolly. If that's the case today then I guess the ballast got more of a ride than they though they might and the delights of the MB tie and subsequent after dinner dit!

Best wishes for a speedy recovery to both!

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Comments on the BBC news page."The pilot was very concerned about the whereabouts of the jet," he said.
"He said they aimed to put it in the Helford River but we saw it heading away from the river."

Why the river and pollute a water course?

At least there were no comments like "Bravely steered away from the local primary school"

[NutLoose]

Probably to minimise possible damage to both structures and people, (whilst contaminating the river with jet fuel and killing a few fish), plus I would imagine it would stay relatively intact and in a localised area and reduce the risk of fire / explosion.

[Fareastdriver]

There is a marked CofG shift when two people leave a Hawk so any idea of trimming it to fly any where once you leave it is a waste of time.

[STENDEC North]

Do they use Irvin parachutes (or the successor company)? If so I assume there will be caterpillar club badges on the way eventually as well.

GQ I believe.

[212man]

GQ I believe.
https://www.irvingq.com/our-story/caterpillar-club/

[ORAC]

A suitably restrained and laid back comment from the local MP.....

”Johnny Mercer, a defence minister, said that the accident was caused by “suspected engine failure”.“

There’s nothing more to it than that,” he said. “They’ve had a problem, they’ve ejected, they’ve been picked up. We’re assessing them and we’ll have more information in due course.”

Mercer, who represents the constituency where the accident took place, served in the armed forces between 2002 and 2013 after graduating from Sandhurst.”.......

[Timber1667]

Johnny Mercer MP for Plymouth Moor View, not where accident occurred near Helston, Cornwall,

[grmps]

I know folk discredit Fr24 but I happened to be watching the plane after being alerted to the 7700 indication. The “glide” speed (if, as reported in the press, an engine failure) seemed to vary between 250 and 350 until the trace stopped over the sea at around 2500ft, I think. Isn’t that a bit fast?

Or is the whole trace rubbish?

[peterperfect]

Mercer is MP for Plymouth, Moor View. He was nice and succinct though.

[STENDEC North]

Relight speed perhaps?

[A310bcal]

It popped up on the alerts for FR24 just before 09:30, it then disappeared over the water about 5 miles south of Falmouth.

Hi, what sort of altitude was the Hawk at when you first followed its progress having presumably been alerted by the 7700 squawk ?

[Non Linear Gear]

Engine failure. Nobody has said birdstrike yet. Birds of the Herring Gull size do kill engines, including Adours. Could be as simple as that. I have seen Adours totally wasted by bird strike FODing. The Jigsaw puzzle will not take long to be put together.

[NutLoose]

T1’s grounded until more is known


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-56531788

[Tankertrashnav]

"He said they aimed to put it in the Helford River but we saw it heading away from the river."

Why the river and pollute a water course?

The Helford River is in fact the name of the arm of the sea which cuts across the Lizard Peninsula almost as far as Culdrose, so not a river as such. Part of it is known as Frenchman's Creek, made famous in the Daphne du Maurier novel.

At least there were no comments like "Bravely steered away from the local primary school"

True, but the local facebook page had a comment congratulating the pilots on crashing their aircraft in an empty field!

[tmmorris]

Or is the whole trace rubbish?

Well... many accident threads on PPruNe certainly lead me to take things like speed with a pinch of salt, especially at low altitudes. Unless the speed is transmitted on ADS-B or similar, it’s calculated from successive positions and if an aircraft is manoeuvring it can be highly inaccurate.

[idle bystander]

The Helford River is in fact the name of the arm of the sea which cuts across the Lizard Peninsula almost as far as Culdrose, so not a river as such. Part of it is known as Frenchman's Creek, made famous in the Daphne du Maurier novel.
I hope your navigation in the air is better than that. The Helford River is one of the most beautiful sailing areas on the Sout Coast, but, though tidal all the way up to Gweek, is not "an arm of the sea"

[Bob Viking]

Please bear in mind I have absolutely no idea what happened to the Hawk yesterday and I have no idea whether they would have had time or cause to establish a glide.

What I can tell you is that the Hawk glide speed (certainly at lower levels) is 190 KIAS.

BV

[Asturias56]

Frenchman's Creek is an arm of the Helford on the south side and is tidal in part. Some locals bring large items (such as freezers) by boat from Falmouth and land them there rather than navigate the tortuous road network

[ShyTorque]

I know folk discredit Fr24 but I happened to be watching the plane after being alerted to the 7700 indication. The “glide” speed (if, as reported in the press, an engine failure) seemed to vary between 250 and 350 until the trace stopped over the sea at around 2500ft, I think. Isn’t that a bit fast?

Or is the whole trace rubbish?

I’ve seen our helicopter doing 360 kts, according to FR24. Its fast, but not that fast.

[olster]

The execrable Jeremy Vine this morning on Ch.5. That well known aviation expert Ann Diamond gives her authoritative views on this accident. Apparently the Hawk crew comprise a pilot and a navigator. Also there has not been a fast jet ejection for 18 years. It is bad enough when anonymous pruners expound on their expertise but when supposed journalists who have no idea about aviation still spout rubbish they should be challenged and corrected. It makes you wonder what else is made up in other areas. I know very little about military fj flying apart from one of the most fun hours of my life in the back of a Hawk circa 1995. I was not the navigator. Glad the guys are ok, well done Martin Baker.

[thunderbird7]

Frenchman's Creek is an arm of the Helford on the south side and is tidal in part. Some locals bring large items (such as freezers) by boat from Falmouth and land them there rather than navigate the tortuous road network

Are they the same ones that dump fridges and freezers in the Mediterranean providing multiple ‘hi conf snorts’?

[McDuff]

Very glad to hear that the crew are OK!

XX189? What a shame - I first flew it over 40 years ago on the first of the new TWU courses with 63 Sqn at Heaven-in-Devon.

6 October 1980 Self/solo WC6 (DNCO camera U/S) 0:40
I strongly suspect that I flew it at Valley while on the first Hawk course in 1977. But my logbooks are still on one of the boxes scattered around the house after a move . . .

[Tankertrashnav]

I hope your navigation in the air is better than that. The Helford River is one of the most beautiful sailing areas on the Sout Coast, but, though tidal all the way up to Gweek, is not "an arm of the sea"

Well if the sea finishes at the mouth of the Helford, what do you call the bit which extends up to Gweek - a leg? a finger? As you say, it is tidal to Gweek. My son was painting a boat in Gweek boatyard today, which pretty well dries out at low tide. I admit my marine terminology is a little shaky (think pointy bit and blunt bit on ships, etc) but I cant see where navigation comes into this? Anyway I was just trying to explain to On The Top Bunk that whatever you call it, it's not a river in the sense that he quite naturally understood.

[chevvron]

I totalled up 17 which was rather sobering (though none were at my hands!) I count myself fortunate to have got away with it especially given some of the near misses.

I only ever managed to scrounge 2 fast jet rides but I can claim 100% loss rate; the Hawk I flew in during Aug 1979 (XX183) was lost due to a birdstrike in 2003 and the Hunter I flew in during Sep 1979 (XF321) made an 'inadvertant' gear up landing in 1984 and was written off.
In both cases no fatalities.

[peterperfect]

Well if the sea finishes at the mouth of the Helford, what do you call the bit which extends up to Gweek - a leg? a finger? As you say, it is tidal to Gweek. My son was painting a boat in Gweek boatyard today, which pretty well dries out at low tide. I admit my marine terminology is a little shaky (think pointy bit and blunt bit on ships, etc) but I cant see where navigation comes into this? Anyway I was just trying to explain to On The Top Bunk that whatever you call it, it's not a river in the sense that he quite naturally understood.
Its a Ria.

[Tigger_Too]

Do they use Irvin parachutes (or the successor company)? If so I assume there will be caterpillar club badges on the way eventually as well.
Parachute is made by GQ, not Irvin. No caterpillar, but quite a nice set of GQ 'Wings'
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/602x302/gq_2b4120256da9320ac48c1fae6d32e1ca930c20c0.jpg

[Auxtank]

Parachute is made by GQ, not Irvin. No caterpillar, but quite a nice set of GQ 'Wings'


I thought they were one and the same?

https://www.irvingq.com

[Tigger_Too]

I thought they were one and the same?

https://www.irvingq.com
You are correct in that GQ acquired Irvin some time ago (pre-1985?). In 2001 the merged company was re-branded as Irvin-GQ. In 2007, it was re-branded as Airborne Systems; however, during 2018, the company re-adopted its previous name of IRVIN-GQ.
I am not sure at what stage the caterpillar disappeared, but probably at the time of the merger. But I can say for sure that the GQ wings had replaced the caterpillar by 1987!

[Nige321]

Back in the air apparently...

The Red Arrows have flown back to RAF Scampton this afternoon from RAF Valley, where the team had been for pre-season training.
The RAF (https://www.facebook.com/royalairforce/?__cft__[0) paused Hawk T1 activity, as a precautionary measure, following an incident with a Royal Navy jet yesterday.
While it remains inappropriate to comment on the ongoing investigation, further technical advice has enabled the Chain of Command to make appropriate decisions on the continuing safety assessments of the wider fleet.
Consequently, the RAF has resumed Hawk T1 flying.
It is inappropriate to comment on the nature of this advice, as this could prejudice the ongoing inquiry.
Safety is always our priority.

[idle bystander]

Well if the sea finishes at the mouth of the Helford, what do you call the bit which extends up to Gweek - a leg?
@Tankertrash OK, I over reacted, for which I apologise. As an NCI Coast Watch watchkeeper I spend many happy hours at Nare Point watching the very area of water where these guys might have ditched this thing, and I'm just very glad they they put it safely in a field instead. A much better option.

[Bengo]

@Tankertrash OK, I over reacted, for which I apologise. As an NCI Coast Watch watchkeeper I spend many happy hours at Nare Point watching the very area of water where these guys might have ditched this thing, and I'm just very glad they they put it safely in a field instead. A much better option.


Yes indeed. The investigation can find the bits much more easily, and go back again if there are any vital to the investigation parts missing. A ditching makes it all much more difficult.

[Richard Dangle]

Thread drift alert

It makes you wonder what else is made up in other areas.

Pretty much all of it, my friend.

And I'm not any sort of dark-state conspiracy theorist.

Just a worldly-wise cynic who is constantly bemused at the myopic gullability of so much of my fellow manslashwoman kind.

Sorry for the drift :oh:

[A310bcal]

Well bearing in mind Pprune is a rumour network, the word on the street down here in Cornwall is that the Hawk was brought down by a birdstrike into the aircraft/engine and the culprit was a sea-gull.
Seems the most likely culprit bearing in mind the flocks of them around our coastline and really its surprising there aren't more problems with them.
No more detail to this rumour that was passed on to me by an old school mate who is a retired CPO ( ex Culdrose ), so we will see how good his source of information was in due course.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Snag with birdstrike "rumour" is that it would not account for the "rumoured" grounding of the entire T1 fleet.
Unless of course there was a concern that the new variety of Hawk T1 engine oil was particularly attractive to sea birds.

[Non Linear Gear]

Snag with birdstrike "rumour" is that it would not account for the "rumoured" grounding of the entire T1 fleet.
Unless of course there was a concern that the new variety of Hawk T1 engine oil was particularly attractive to sea birds.

How many hours was it between the crash and the grounding of the fleet? Not enough time to get an investigation team down there to remotely start to accertain why that Adour Mk 151 engine decided not to produce any more thrust. I do not know if the accident sequence started at meduim level or low level. Low level over the sea, there is always the risk, same over the land. Not spotted, engine destroyed with RPM dropping and EGT rising/falling. Pull up to get height and time. Try and relight. pilots would have no idea why bar bad noises, the aircraft is slowing down, losing height and the engine dials winding down / warning panel / master caution statrting to go mental. Fleet would be grounded because the cause is not known and birdstrike is a possiblity that cannot be discounted untill the investigation is completed. As I said, I have seen what a gull can do to an Adour after climbing down the intake. I am also an LAE so know a little about aeroplane structures and systems in general.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

NLG, seems it kicked off at around 14,000 ft or so as xx189 tracked south west. 7700 squawk appeared on fr24 as it passed north of Falmouth, still heading sw, and descending through around 11,500ft.
The aircraft appears to have followed a wide left turn with continued descent passing around Culdrose at about 8000ft before tracking east across the Lizard, coasting out, then making a left turn back towards the Helford.

FR24 playback is still available to view.
​​​​Time will tell, and thankfully there are two people still around to give their 1st-hand input rather than our 2nd-guessing.

[dead_pan]

Seagull at 14,000'? Wouldn't be my first thought

[Non Linear Gear]

NLG, seems it kicked off at around 14,000 ft or so as xx189 tracked south west. 7700 squawk appeared on fr24 as it passed north of Falmouth, still heading sw, and descending through around 11,500ft.
The aircraft appears to have followed a wide left turn with continued descent passing around Culdrose at about 8000ft before tracking east across the Lizard, coasting out, then making a left turn back towards the Helford.

FR24 playback is still available to view.
​​​​Time will tell, and thankfully there are two people still around to give their 1st-hand input rather than our 2nd-guessing.
Well, medium level does kill the Gull kill. I had no idea what height things kicked off. Failure of a LP or HP rotating part is a grounding event usually in anything else nowadays. Pilots first hand input will not tell anyone why the engine failed. Investigation of the remains of the engine will. They will only say it made a horrible noise and gauges started winding down or temps rocketed and they would done the FRCs to try and save the situation.

[treadigraph]

Various migratory birds will fly much higher than 14000' so it's not impossible that something feathery went down an air intake. I believe a 727 had a (feathered) hawk through the radome somewhere up around 30000' in the '70s (the version I heard had its carcass entering the cockpit via the footwell and busting the first officer's leg!) and another airliner ingested a vulture even higher than that. Think both occurred over Africa/Middle East though.

Gulls are far too lazy to climb that high, particularly if there's any prospect of snaffling a pasty or a 99.

[Ken Scott]

Not a bird strike but many years ago I was westbound to N America around 30W at FL260 when an insect impacted the middle of my windscreen, I always thought that was one very lost (& unlucky) bug.

[ORAC]

Not lost, but ballooning.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballooning_(spider)

[Busta]

I took an albatross just after airborne at Midway many years ago. No indications. Six hours later after landing it was extracted from one of the concord shaped cooling duct intakes between the jet pipes. Deep frozen and quite cylindrical. Only slight damage to the redundant intake.

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.

[sharpend]

I hit a duck in a Hawk... Pate :)

[Ninthace]

I hit a duck in a Hawk... Pate :)
I am surprised its feet were long enough to reach the pedals.

[Fareastdriver]

Coming back through cloud and dodging the cu-nimbs in China there was a loud thud and the windscreen got covered in blood and feathers. An unauthorised cormorant flying illegally under IMC had run into the radar radome. Not only had it totalled itself but it collapsed the radome and jammed the scanner. Now blind to the weather there followed quite a bumpy ride until we were clear.

The British engineers looked at it in an advisory capacity and stated that it needed a new radome. The Chinese engineers, whose aircraft it was, took it off and departed for the nearest panel beaters.

It come back a few hours later; indistinguishable from new.

[Cat Techie]

I hit a duck in a Hawk... Pate :)
Got you a medal.

[NutLoose]

I can remember a Learjet we operated, the wing on it was so critical, it had a mixture of flush and dome headed screws along the leading edge to maintain the wing characteristics etc, it was forbidden to remove the leading edge for maintenance, this had to be carried out at a Lear main facility because simply removing the screws and putting them back in the same holes could alter the characteristics. Anyway on take off it meet a goose and boy was the dent to behold.. pictures flew back and forth and eventually Lear told us to take the leading edge off, beat the proverbial out of it to get it back into some shape resembling the leading edge, then fly it back to the USA for replacement and setting up.

[ShyTorque]

A Hawk flying at speed and suffering a bird strike could easily zoom climb to quite some altitude. Converting speed to height is ingrained into military trained pilots, to give more time to deal with the situation. So if it was a bird strike it might have occurred much lower than the appearance of the 7700 squawk might suggest.

[Bob Viking]

You are correct in your statement of zooming to height but you have over egged it slightly.

A Hawk at LL (let’s assume 420 knots) that suffers a catastrophic engine failure can expect to achieve somewhere in the region of 5000’ AGL and establish a 190 KIAS glide. This assumes it is flown in an energy efficient way.

I will reiterate that I know nothing about the accident in question and the bird strike idea is still theoretical.

BV

[212man]

Coming back through cloud and dodging the cu-nimbs in China there was a loud thud and the windscreen got covered in blood and feathers. An unauthorised cormorant flying illegally under IMC had run into the radar radome. Not only had it totalled itself but it collapsed the radome and jammed the scanner. Now blind to the weather there followed quite a bumpy ride until we were clear.

The British engineers looked at it in an advisory capacity and stated that it needed a new radome. The Chinese engineers, whose aircraft it was, took it off and departed for the nearest panel beaters.

It come back a few hours later; indistinguishable from new.

Panel beating glass fibre must take some skill!

[Out Of Trim]

I hit a duck in a Hawk... Pate :)

Shame, you would have thought he would have ducked! 🤔. 😂

[NutLoose]

Coming back through cloud and dodging the cu-nimbs in China there was a loud thud and the windscreen got covered in blood and feathers. An unauthorised cormorant flying illegally under IMC had run into the radar radome. Not only had it totalled itself but it collapsed the radome and jammed the scanner. Now blind to the weather there followed quite a bumpy ride until we were clear.

The British engineers looked at it in an advisory capacity and stated that it needed a new radome. The Chinese engineers, whose aircraft it was, took it off and departed for the nearest panel beaters.

It come back a few hours later; indistinguishable from new.

with probably a bloody great shadow on the radar return.

[Fareastdriver]

with probably a bloody great shadow on the radar return

Absolutely perfect. All their machines were immaculate with a serviceability rate that eclipsed their G reg forerunners. They were the smoothest and fastest of all the helicopters I had ever flown for over forty years.

[ShyTorque]

You are correct in your statement of zooming to height but you have over egged it slightly.

A Hawk at LL (let’s assume 420 knots) that suffers a catastrophic engine failure can expect to achieve somewhere in the region of 5000’ AGL and establish a 190 KIAS glide. This assumes it is flown in an energy efficient way.

I will reiterate that I know nothing about the accident in question and the bird strike idea is still theoretical.

BV

How do you know that I “over egged” it? Do you know at what altitude they suffered the engine failure?

[Bob Viking]

A Hawk flying at speed and suffering a bird strike could easily zoom climb to quite some altitude.

If you believe that gaining 5000’ classes as ‘quite some altitude’ then by all means please consider your pudding to be egged to a satisfactory, but not excessive, level.

If you had started at LL that means 10 miles of gliding until the aircraft will impact the ground. Since we usually plan to eject before we get too low (let’s say about 1-2000’ minimum) that gives about 6 or 7 miles of useful gliding range which equates to approximately 2 minutes of flying time.

Of course if the engine failure happens at a higher altitude you can add the numbers on (although your zoom potential will be lessened and you will be less likely to have been traveling at such a high IAS).

Despite all of this I still know precisely nothing about the circumstances surrounding last weeks crash.

BV

[ShyTorque]

If you believe that gaining 5000’ classes as ‘quite some altitude’ then by all means please consider your pudding to be egged to a satisfactory, but not excessive, level.

If you had started at LL that means 10 miles of gliding until the aircraft will impact the ground. Since we usually plan to eject before we get too low (let’s say about 1-2000’ minimum) that gives about 6 or 7 miles of useful gliding range which equates to approximately 2 minutes of flying time.

Of course if the engine failure happens at a higher altitude you can add the numbers on (although your zoom potential will be lessened and you will be less likely to have been traveling at such a high IAS).

Despite all of this I still know precisely nothing about the circumstances surrounding last weeks crash.

BV

I’m really not sure what your point is. I have flown single engined military jets, albeit before the Hawk was in service. I was simply making the point that FR24 isn’t a reliable flight recorder, for more than one reason.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Whilst we accept that tracking sites like 360radar and FR24 are not perfect they can offer a good insight of profiles sufficient to generate discussion. There is often a lot of gap-filling and extrapolation of speeds and altitudes.
It is a shame that XX189 appears on the plot at around 14,000ft so with minimal history we don't know if it got there after a climb, a decent or was happily S&L.
Here is a screen shot of the profiles to aid that discussion.

As an ex-atco it raises a few questions for me but I can wait for the inquiry report to come out.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1908x884/xx189_13bb5b188714c362d7be9cbb30317e42fd357afd.jpg

[Bob Viking]

There had been talk earlier in the thread of the Hawk squawking 7700 at 14000’.

When I read your post I felt you were inferring that a Hawk that had suffered a LL bird strike might have zoomed to such an altitude. If that was not the case then I apologise.

Talk of bird strikes usually conjure up thoughts of LL profiles. Whilst bird strikes are obviously possible higher up they are much more rare.

Of course I have no idea what altitude the jet was at when it suffered an emergency and indeed what caused it.

BV

[ShyTorque]

BV, I never mentioned the term low level, nor did I infer this aircraft was.

Apology accepted.

(After over 45 years of flying for a living (and unfortunately having hit a few, including one with about a metre of wingspan which was flying well after midnight) I have some idea of where most birds fly).

[treadigraph]

I'm curious... looking at the FR24 posted by Satco, the aircraft arrives overhead Culdrose at roughly 7000, and then carries out a wide circuit down past Mullion, over Goonhilly and back out over Falmouth Bay steadily losing height - even allowing for FR24 position errors that looks to me as though the Hawk may have been returning to base, positioning for a RIAB or landing, and the engine failure occurred much later in the sequence, down wind of the runway.

If it had happened at 14000' over Falmouth, wouldn't they have arrived over Culdrose and kept very tight to the airfield, with an eye on dropping it in Mounts Bay if necessary? Falmouth Bay in my experience usually has shipping at anchor awaiting quay space.

[212man]

I thought the MOD temporarily grounded the Hawk T1s - that doesn't sound like it was a bird strike to me.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

I'm curious... looking at the FR24 posted by Satco, the aircraft arrives overhead Culdrose at roughly 7000, and then carries out a wide circuit down past Mullion, over Goonhilly and back out over Falmouth Bay steadily losing height - even allowing for FR24 position errors that looks to me as though the Hawk may have been returning to base, positioning for a RIAB or landing, and the engine failure occurred much later in the sequence, down wind of the runway.

If it had happened at 14000' over Falmouth, wouldn't they have arrived over Culdrose and kept very tight to the airfield, with an eye on dropping it in Mounts Bay if necessary? Falmouth Bay in my experience usually has shipping at anchor awaiting quay space.
- When the a/c first appears on FR24 it is showing a height/altitude/level of around 14000' and the squawk says N/A
- The aircraft icon turns red (I believe this indicates a "track of interest" on fr24 so could be the system detecting 7700 ) just south of Trelisick Garden but now indicating 12,600' , however Squawk is still showing as N/A
- FR24 shows 7700 squawk appear as the a/c icon is overhead Penryn at 10,200'.

From that I suggest the problem did occur at a medium level but we cannot say if the appearance of 7700 at Penryn is when it was selected or simply when the tracking software detected it and it had been selected quite some time prior.

As for a recovery profile after that... I don't know serviceability of Culdrose radar at the time, how big its blindspot is overhead, nor the cloudbase, all of which would have a bearing on a visual PFL or radar PFL profile. There is an assumption of engine failure but we have no idea what else packed in, if indeed the engine was the initial problem.

We were not there, we were not in that cockpit so I'll wait for the report to come out.

[treadigraph]

Thanks Satco, curiosity piqued by image and assuaged by answer!

[A310bcal]

Looks like MAYBE the FRADU Hawks are flying again as one was sighted climbing Eastbound around 6,000' this afternoon.

So maybe the reason for the emergency incident with subsequent ejections will be explained now.

Yes I know , lots of "maybes ".

[Asturias56]

Opportunity to save cash right at the end of the Financial Year?

Give everyone a longer Easter break....................

[mad_collie]

Opportunity to save cash right at the end of the Financial Year?

Give everyone a longer Easter break....................
I wouldn't have thought crashing planes is a good way to save money.

[diginagain]

I wouldn't have thought crashing planes is a good way to save money.
Perhaps a Beancounter might wish to express their perspective?

[falcon900]

I am not a beancounter, but I can think of many pretexts to stop flying, including the traditional "stop flying" instruction so would discount the grounding being anything other that a sensible precaution.
As for causing a crash to precipitate an opportunity for cost saving........

[kenparry]

Not a beancounter, but......................

Many years ago the company I worked for had a total loss of an airframe that was on dry lease half a world away. It emerged that the company made a profit from the tragic event, as the insurance payout was significantly greater than the book value of the aircraft.

Bizarre and distasteful, I thought.

[falcon900]

As RN/MOD are not insured, I think we can discount that theory too.
As an aside, I am not sure what is bizarre or distasteful about an insurance settlement being different from the accounting book value of the asset. It would be rare for them to coincide. If you are suggesting the aircraft was deliberately destroyed, I would suggest that Criminal would be a more accurate description than bizarre and distasteful.

[Asturias56]

"As for causing a crash to precipitate an opportunity for cost saving........"

Not what I meant to suggest - just that once the crash happened there may have been some who weren't as keen as they might be to get the aircraft back in the skies immediately. Soem people see an opportunity on the worst possible days - such as the lady in the Labour party who was desperate to get out "bad news" in the shadow of 911

[[email protected]]

As I understand, the hawk pilot initially positioned for a PFL to Culdrose but the engine problem appeared to correct itself - he changed plan and was then caught out when the problem came back in spades.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

That's interesting. Seem to recall the Mustang pilot that ended up in a field near Duxford facing a similar problem. He said that the intermittent engine issue he encountered was worse than losing the engine from the start. Much more dangerous than a straight forward donkey stops working as there is now added uncertainty and doubt thrown into the mix.

He was very lucky at Duxford, these guys were very lucky at Helston.

[Asturias56]

The US magazine "Flying" runs an "Aftermath" column on private aircraft accidents and that's a point they make regularly - if everything stops you have no choices - but "intermittent" means people often keep going in the hope it'll get better - or rather that their choices will improve.

They often don't

[PPRuNeUser0211]

The US magazine "Flying" runs an "Aftermath" column on private aircraft accidents and that's a point they make regularly - if everything stops you have no choices - but "intermittent" means people often keep going in the hope it'll get better - or rather that their choices will improve.

They often don't

Indeed. Only aircraft accident I've ever watched in person was a civvy chap trying to go around with a rough running/intermittent engine he'd just fluffed a PFL with, rather than put his (literally brand new, first flight from the factory) aircraft on the grass at the end of the 6000' runway he missed the first 5000' of!

[rans6andrew]

Is there any real info regarding the cause of the Hawk incident? There has been nothing concrete at all, just the speculation of the good members of Pprune. Will there be any info? or will the powers that be sort out the cause for themselves and then make it classified info?

Just curious.

Rans6.......

[LateArmLive]

Is there any real info regarding the cause of the Hawk incident? There has been nothing concrete at all, just the speculation of the good members of Pprune. Will there be any info? or will the powers that be sort out the cause for themselves and then make it classified info?

Just curious.

Rans6.......
Why do you need to know? If you are a current military pilot, or involved in Hawk operations, then you already know the high points of the accident.

No, it won't be covered up either - a Service Inquiry takes time to be published.

[ShyTorque]

As I understand, the hawk pilot initially positioned for a PFL to Culdrose but the engine problem appeared to correct itself - he changed plan and was then caught out when the problem came back in spades.


Probably carburettor icing.
;)

[H Peacock]

Heard a strong rumour that the engine failed due to a lack of oil pressure!

[mad_collie]

Heard a strong rumour that the engine failed due to a lack of oil pressure!
So it seems.

https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/rnas-culdrose-hawk-jet-crash-7399276

[Asturias56]

Engine failure has been blamed for a Royal Navy jet crashing into a remote Cornish woodland (https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/royal-navy-hawk-jet-crashes-5226707) on the Lizard Peninsula.

A report by the Defence Safety Authority which took almost a year to complete has now revealed that the jet from RNAS Culdrose crashed in a woodland area outside St Martin near Helston (https://www.cornwalllive.com/all-about/helston)in March 2021 after losing its engine oil when a plug was incorrectly fitted and popped out when the pilot and co-pilot fired the engine during their training exercise last year.

In its conclusion the report found that the crash was due to the loss of engine oil after an incorrectly fitted Magnetic Chip Detection (MCD) plug was ejected from its housing on engine start by the oil system working pressure. Furthermore, there was a failure of the self-sealing valve situated within the missing MCD housing, the purpose of which is to prevent oil from leaking when the MCD is not present.

The report also revealed the pilot’s lifejacket had burst on ejection and was a vital piece of survival equipment if they’d landed in water. The report concluded it had been incorrectly packed. The immediate actions of the post-crash emergency team were also commended in the report.

[superplum]

Engine failure has been blamed for a Royal Navy jet crashing into a remote Cornish woodland (https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/royal-navy-hawk-jet-crashes-5226707) on the Lizard Peninsula.

A report by the Defence Safety Authority which took almost a year to complete has now revealed that the jet from RNAS Culdrose crashed in a woodland area outside St Martin near Helston (https://www.cornwalllive.com/all-about/helston)in March 2021 after losing its engine oil when a plug was incorrectly fitted and popped out when the pilot and co-pilot fired the engine during their training exercise last year.

In its conclusion the report found that the crash was due to the loss of engine oil after an incorrectly fitted Magnetic Chip Detection (MCD) plug was ejected from its housing on engine start by the oil system working pressure. Furthermore, there was a failure of the self-sealing valve situated within the missing MCD housing, the purpose of which is to prevent oil from leaking when the MCD is not present.

The report also revealed the pilot’s lifejacket had burst on ejection and was a vital piece of survival equipment if they’d landed in water. The report concluded it had been incorrectly packed. The immediate actions of the post-crash emergency team were also commended in the report.

The full report is here:

Service Inquiry into the Loss of Hawk T Mk1 XX189 from 736 Naval Air Squadron, RNAS Culdrose - GOV.UK ( (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/service-inquiry-into-the-loss-of-hawk-t-mk1-xx189-from-736-naval-air-squadron-rnas-culdrose)www.gov.uk)

[lefty loose]

The report indicates that engine ground runs to test a disturbed system were discontinued in 2012, since this incident they have been reinstated; problem solved?

[tucumseh]

The report indicates that engine ground runs to test a disturbed system were discontinued in 2012, since this incident they have been reinstated; problem solved?

Shortly after failure to conduct disturbed systems testing had killed Flt Lt Sean Cunningham. Not errors of omission. On both occasions a conscious policy decision was made not to do it. A repair is not complete until verified.

Even the briefest glance at the recommendations tells you most would be unnecessary if mandates were met in the first place.

Surely the Convening Authority should be asking 'How are you getting on with implementing the same recommendations from.....?' (Insert almost any accident, but Hawk XX204 and Hawk XX177 for a start). But then, that would bring matters too close to home.

You can't make this stuff up.

[Ninthace]

Did not a 146 from Northolt run out of oil some time ago when work was not done properly?

[sycamore]

Turned over a lot of `stones` there.....

[Mortmeister]

I get that most are horrified by the MCD error, but I think it is worth highlighting the errors with regard to the provision of maintenance of AEA.

Once leaving any incident aircraft there is an assumption that the AAES and AEA will all work as advertised. In my 25 years of working alongside RAF SE personnel, I am surprised and disturbed that RN SES personnel are not operating to a similar standard and particularly in this case, not provisioned with adequate staff and facilities to undertake their work correctly.
For the SI to state that 736 NAS made no use of the main SE Bay is a little disingenuous, given the geography at CU, or the practicality of moving this kit around what is a huge piece of real estate at all times of the day.
Possibly a ‘one off’ given the operating circumstances at CU and hopefully the Joint environment will help to address any differences (I consider myself as being ‘purple’ and work in the Joint environment).
Or then again, maybe RAF SE personnel are being similarly ‘leaned’ to save money by those that removed the requirement to conduct an engine Ground Run post MCD removal. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of not, or poorly fitted MCDs bringing down aircraft.
Anyone can know the cost of something, but only the SQEP few know the value and there but for the grace of God there were no funerals from this event, it could have clearly had a different outcome.

[8674planes]

Isn't the installation of a Mag Chip detector a duplicate inspection item? On my days working on airliners I seem to remember it was.

[tucumseh]

Or then again, maybe RAF SE personnel are being similarly ‘leaned’ to save money by those that removed the requirement to conduct an engine Ground Run post MCD removal. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of not, or poorly fitted MCDs bringing down aircraft.
Anyone can know the cost of something, but only the SQEP few know the value and there but for the grace of God there were no funerals from this event, it could have clearly had a different outcome.

The reports from the Cunningham and Bayliss deaths (Hawks XX177 and 204) spell this out in excruciating detail. In the latter case, lack of SQEP was a common complaint. AOC 22 Group said he'd bags of staff, but they weren't SQEP; although others said they lacked any kind of staff. In the former, the Reds had armourers with no seat experience, they were directed to ignore mandates, and had/were allowed to use the wrong tools. But that is no excuse for so many above them agreeing to omit testing; especially, as 8674planes says, when double-checking is mandated.

That they were RAF, and the current one RN, simply highlights that these are core activities. The Panel's report, at 1.6.11, rightly touches on this, pointing out there is a single Type Airworthiness Authority. (I thought it a good report). But previous occurrences have demonstrated the weakness caused by TAAs not having the necessary authority, and the dearth of support afforded them. It's rather like giving a chippie a bag of nails and telling him to build a house.

If this is happening time and time again, and the subject of hundreds of recommendations in accident reports, then the Safety Management System isn't working and is unfit for purpose.

Here, DGDSA says there are 'valuable lessons', and then lists many that came up in the Jon Bayliss case, where only last November the Coroner found MoD negligent because it repeated breaches from 2011 and 2007. That damning indictment was on his desk when he took up post, and his predecessor knew throughout her tenure. I conclude the DG, also, doesn't actually have the necessary authority, and we already know that neither do the Delivery and Operating Duty Holders. Once again the current Duty Holder construct is proven a complete crock. There's plenty of people who say they're in charge, but there's apparently no-one in control.

[longer ron]

On my last Hawk Unit (not military) if the mag plug change was carried out on a turn round or (say) if an engine runner was not available after an evening mag plug change - we did the mag plug leak check on the next sortie start up as we always had a 1st line tool box with us.
One of those vital little jobs.

[Krystal n chips]

Isn't the installation of a Mag Chip detector a duplicate inspection item? On my days working on airliners I seem to remember it was.

Certainly is for obvious reasons.

The reference to EFDC is alarming. EFDC's are worth their weight in gold to any organisation....they have the expertise to analyse any debris after all....and it was a golden rule, never remove debris from a plug before sending it to the EFDC. If I've read the report correctly, the mention of "on condition" seals being inspected is also concerning.

Once a seal has been removed from its seating, irrespective of the location, it gets replaced NO exceptions ...remember, its been under compression and subject to varying px and temps...and you can't tell its condition just by looking at it.

[tucumseh]

Krystal

SQEP+.

[BEagle]

Notwithstanding the plethora of maintenance and organisational failures involved, I find it rather surprising that a pilot flying through the overhead at 8000ft, with a surface W/V of 220/11G18 for RW29, 29km vis. and few (less than 2 oktas) of cloud below 6000ft didn't fly a simple spiral descent to High Key?

[KrisKringle]

Notwithstanding the plethora of maintenance and organisational failures involved, I find it rather surprising that a pilot flying through the overhead at 8000ft, with a surface W/V of 220/11G18 for RW29, 29km vis. and few (less than 2 oktas) of cloud below 6000ft didn't fly a simple spiral descent to High Key?

Probably because a spiral FL isn't as simple as you insinuate and quite easy to mess up with serious consequences, especially so with some of the immediate area built up - Helston to N and families quarters to S. If the engine is running smoothly with an oil caption (no other symptoms) the teaching has been, for the last decade or so, to fly a straight in fixed power approach, ideally over an unpopulated area. As such, pilot did 100% the right thing.

[Bob Viking]

I know exactly what you’re saying. I’m not about to throw spears since I wasn’t in the cockpit but my 3000+ Hawk hours did lead me to question it.

By way of mitigation though I have come to realise that our teaching of how we handle OIL captions and engine malfunctions could be slightly erroneous.

If you have an OIL caption the drill is to set 78-87% RPM (note that the ACM says 80-85%) and land ASAP. We teach and practice flying a straight in approach maintaining a constant RPM. If at any stage you were to suspect engine damage or an impending mechanical failure then you would probably consider a forced landing. Here is where the confusion may set in though.

A fixed power of 78-87% is not going to allow you to gain much height if you were low and slow since it is quite low. It also won’t work if you try to fly a glide profile since it is too high to allow a sensible glide (some guys in Canada tried to practice powered forced landings for this reason and they weren’t pretty). We also know that the engine should keep running if we maintain a constant RPM.

So, the pilot in this case did everything right and set up for a straight in approach in accordance with the teaching. Once the engine started to vibrate he was too low and too slow to really be able to get onto a glide profile quickly and land ASAP.

I think it’s easy for us to look with hindsight and say they should have gone for an AFL profile sooner but that would involve bringing a faulty engine back to idle and risking a complete failure. Therefore giving yourself one shot at glory versus the supposed safer option of maintaining powered flight.

What should perhaps come out of this accident is a rethink of some of our teaching for OIL captions. If you’re at height, and can successfully glide maybe throttle to idle and forced landing is the best option. Bear in mind though that the T1 would have had zero avionics with the engine shut down. If you’re low and slow the fixed power option would seem more sensible.

As an example I was on base leg for a RAD-PAR in a T2 at Valley a few years back when the OIL caption illuminated. Since the power was already set in the correct range I simply declared a PAN and continued my PAR to land. If I had been descending at high speed out of the local medium level airspace though maybe a precautionary forced landing might have been more sensible. It turned out to be an erroneous caption by the way!

So, in summary, I think the pilot did what he was taught and just got very unlucky. But I bet he is kicking himself at how close he came to winning an AFC for landing successfully!

BV

[BEagle]

I wasn't criticising the pilot's actions, merely expressing surprise that he didn't fly a simple spiral descent (in benign Wx condtions) from the overhead.

It's 41 years since my last trip in XX189 at Chiv. Back then we weren't taught any fixed power straight-in options; the radar PFL (a lot easier than a 1-in-1 in the Hunter) was the preferred option. A visual spiral from 8000ft to high or low key wouldn't have been particularly demanding in my view. The Hawk T1 was extremely easy to fly and had good systems redundancy; personally with any engine associated caption I wouldn't wish to fly beyond gliding range of the aerodrome if at all possible - and the Hawk glides extremely well too.

Perhaps current teaching might be reviewed following this accident?

[Bob Viking]

Experience from other oil related incidents had shown that the engine will work just fine with limited oil as long as you keep the RPM stable. That is probably what led us down the straight in path instead of forced landings.

On the flip side can you imagine if they had proceeded to high key, chopped the throttle, the engine had failed and then they screwed up the forced landing pattern? Guess what the criticism would have been then?!

Maybe the handling advice will be reviewed. But not by me. I’m out!

BV

[Minnie Burner]

Oil pressure low.
1981: Land ASAP, using min power.
If the engine vibrates it may seize.
Simple.