Best IFR planning software for pilot students

[math341c]

Hello dear folks. I am a student pilot taking the full ATPL course. And now I am finishing soon my PPL/VFR flights, so I can begin with my instrument rating.

For now, I have used a nice software called SKY DEMON to plan my VFR flights, I am happy with the software, and has really helped with my VFR flying, but now I am about to take the next exciting step, which is IFR Flying :)

I have tried to look through the forums and a bit of google, but I cannot find any software which has a realistic price for students.

I am looking for a similar software as SKY DEMON, but just for IFR flying. I want to be able to plan my IFR with software which have the latest updated charts I need for my flights at any time and that I can print them at any time. Software that works well on both PC (Windows) and Ipad.

Is there any software which has some realistic price for students? maybe some special editions for students? I only need charts for northern Europe and for low altitude waypoints, as I have no plans to fly very long routes :)

I see forward to hear some nice ideas. Thanks in advance!

[Arrow Flyer]

If you want to do things on a budget, use Autorouter(.aero) to generate and file the route, then paste that route into Skydemon. Put SD in Airways mode. You can use the AIP plates for approaches.

If you want to spend money, get Foreflight with the Jeppesen Charts addon.

I think Autorouter's route generation is better than Foreflight's for European IFR.

[Miles Magister]

There is routefinder
RouteFinder (free access area) (http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/)

[Genghis the Engineer]

For somebody developing their skills?

Paper chart, PLOG, whizz-wheel. For both VFR and IFR.

Use the computer to source met and NOTAMs, if necessary for downloading approach plates, then leave it alone. You need to learn the basic principles as well as possible, not learn how to use software to make your life easier - that comes later.

If you really must, have plates and a chart in flight on a tablet on something like Rocketroute. And have them on paper as well, and make damned sure that EVERYTHING you do is on paper until you have passed your CPL and IR.

[Banana Joe]

Autorouter is very effective. Foreflight with Jeppesen is also a good option. There's also Rocket Route.

You have to try all of them and find out which option best fits your needs.

[Banana Joe]

Genghis the Engineer

The last time I used paper charts was indeed on my CPL and ME-IR skills test. Since then everything has been on the EFB, including OFP, WX, Notams, etc. I haven't printed a single sheet in the crew room for 2 years now.

Maybe it's about time that flight schools adapt to how airline pilots actually operate.

[rudestuff]

...and let someone else plan the route for you 👍

[Field Required]

Im based in Europe and use Foreflight primarily as my IFR planning and filing tool. It just makes life a lot easier and has everything you need. It costs, however they do offer free trial periods and their support is second to none. If you are just looking for a web based planner then I recommend https://skyvector.com It’s totally free and very useful. Coupled with www.Autorouter.aero you can’t go far wrong.

[math341c]

Thanks for the all kind of answers. :)

As i see now i will take a decision between two solutions:

Solution 1:

I have noted ForeFlight as the software.

You guys that have mentioned ForeFlight, Is the basic subscription (The cheapest one) enough for me then for IFR planning=

Solution 2:

You guys that mentioned doing a PLOG sure, but i still need a software or database where i have access to all the latest charts, and no. The school wont provide it. Not so i can at home plan it, i need to rent scool's computers to get access to updated charts. But i want it for myself also, access to all charts, at least for north Europe.

Thanks in advance.

[Field Required]

Foreflight basic has all you need and it also comes with a PLOG inbuilt into the software if you really need. There’s very little gain printing out or plotting on paper charts these days, particularly in the world of PBN. More often than not when flying IFR around N.Europe you’ll get a direct or change of routing at some point so the plan goes out the window in any case.
Your time will be better spent getting to grips with the G1000 before your IR course so you don’t waste valuable time trying to figure out how it works. I can recommend the ipad app simionic for that.
Good luck.

[math341c]

Thank you for the help and clarification it give sense now. I do also not see the sense making it on paper. It is just waste of paper. And about learning; I can learn the same things doing it in a software. I need to know what all the symbols on the charts know etc, I have a book for that that explains it all. I just wanted a software where I have all in one for planning. It seems that ForeFLight is the good option.

I will take a look at ForeFlight, but when I see their basic subscription it also says that it covers VFR, so I do need need SKYDEMON subscription anymore? ForeFlight is covers the VFR features?

[Field Required]

Yes Foreflight covers VFR also. Skydemon is the superior VFR option tho.

[math341c]

Field Required

Thanks for the help, of course SKYDEMON Probably is. But I have not so many VFR hours left to be done. So I will stop SKYDEMON subscription and upgrade to ForeFlight. Seems like the right choice for me. I have no plans for now to fly VFR later, not in the school at least. There are no more VFR flying, after I finish my last VFR hours soon.

Thanks for the help!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Banana Joe

Flight schools need to inject solid basic skills first. The fact is that you can still function without the EFB, because you know how. And also when presented with a totally different system, you will have the advantage of that fundamental knowledge in learning your way into the new system. The pilot who has *only* done things using the latest software interface, may be at something of a disadvantage.

Also, not everybody is an airline pilot.

[Contact Approach]

I’ve not once manually plotted an IFR route in all my life. You just create it using whatever you like, file the plan and then load it in the fms/gps. Of course during the IR course you’ll fly raw data but that doesn’t change your plan.

[math341c]

SkyDemon was recommended by my chief instructor. for my VFR flights, I do not understand why it is bad to use software. When you have made VFR flights on paper a few times, there is no need to do everything manually it is waste of time. In software planning apps you still need to create the route. Away from obstacles, research NOTAMS, weather, etc so it does not does the job for you, it just makes it easier. The software just shows you it all at once, and you do not need to search for every single piece of information you need.

By the way, i agree with the others, sitting with a piece of paper and doing calculations with Flight Computer is not even accurate, this is mainly VFR. The Flight Computer is not that accurate, can clearly feel it with ATPL questions, where you get a much better result when you do calculations with a calculator. So again another reason why it's better to do this with Flightplan software, much more precise calculations for winds, heading, and so on.

[Field Required]

Correct. This is what you need to be practising:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/bae60553_adcd_484e_82d9_c50613d81ce3_407f5993761944b0c652289 95c5192be4083add9.jpeg


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1284/a489f743_486b_497d_ab1a_051b99b6a9fb_6283adcac851e590efbad1f 32c1c5e9186394303.jpeg

[math341c]

Are you sure that the Simionic App is good? The one i found in app store is made by some Asian developer i see Chinese letters of the developer name, and it has very bad reviews? People complain that it crashes all the time.

Thanks for your reply.

[Field Required]

It depends what you want to use it for. Its very useful for learning how the G1000 works and is pretty accurate.

[math341c]

Good, thanks for the answer.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Maybe I'm a luddite, but I value basic skills. I had a chap I was instructing a while ago, a fairly experienced PPL, navigating using Skydemon on an iPad - and 10 miles from his usual home airfield, the battery went flat. He was incapable of working out where he was, and declared himself lost. He then got so stressed, even after I pointed out how to get back to the overhead of his normal club airfield, that he lost control of the aircraft in the overhead requiring me to take control before he spiral dived the pair of us into the middle of the circuit.

Not me, but I was around a training airfield in the USA a couple of years ago where somebody failed their IR because they were flying with an iPad, it overheated in the Florida sun and shut down, and he had no paper backup from which he could complete the flight. Was me, a few years ago I picked an aeroplane up from Madrid to fly back to the UK for a flying school, and discovered that the old owner had been a bit untruthful about the condition of the nav kit, and the power socket didn't work so I couldn't run my portable Garmin for more than about half of every leg: I flew the length of Europe safely on basic instruments, a mode A transponder, paper charts and a PLOG.

I use these gadgets myself, and they're great. I do my flight planning on Skydemon as often as not, and I'm used to flying with various Garmin kit in the air. But I am very very nervous of ever allowing my fundamental skills to degrade, or that of anybody I'm responsible for. And I'm guessing that you have less than 100hrs, you're a complete beginner - yes, use these tools and be good with them, but concentrate in the short term on basic skills as well. Running a couple of simple nav trips on a paper PLOG is not expertise, it's basic exposure.

[math341c]

I understand what you’re trying to say. But I think that I have not made myself clear. Now when using Sky Demon. I only use it for planning. I do not use the app in flight or flying after my iPad. When I have made a flight plan in SKYDEMON I use the briefing pack option, to generate all in one plan that t have made on a page or two. I take a screenshot of it and navigate after just how it would be on paper. I write the times on the screenshot and calculate the next waypoints time in my head. And I want to do something similar in IFR.

[Genghis the Engineer]

That seems fair enough, and no you weren't entirely clear, but it's fine.

Have a look at Rocketroute.

[math341c]

Thanks for your recommendation. And no, of course, I do not use it in the flight as mentioned. We are also, not allowed to use any software on iPad or phone to navigate, we may only use the equipment in the aircraft. Software like Sky Demon are only allowed for planning.

And when reading the example with the student you had, I completely agree with what you say. I would never fly like that. Even if my battery went flat, I have a mini handbook (physical) with me, that can be in the side pockets, which gets renewed every year and contains all airports in Denmark, frequencies, and most important information, and I also have a VFR map with me.

So a flat battery won't be a problem for me. And in VFR you must have visual contact, so even if all your navigation instruments fail, you should be able to navigate visually with your VFR map.

[hum]

https://www.eurofpl.eu/

inexpensive, you can get a sim version if not using for actual filing. Interface Takes a little Getting used to, but very powerful system with lots of features.

[math341c]

Thanks, @Hum for your ideas I will take a look at them also.

So guys, you who recommended ForeFlight, I looked at the Basic subscription yesterday. I Saw that you can also buy additional Jeppesen IFR charts? It cost almost 347 dollars extra per year just for northern europe, which is pretty expensive. But do I need them for the school flight? Does the Basic edition without additional options have all the charts I need?

[Field Required]

You dont need to pay for the Jepp subscription as no doubt the school you attend will have them. Foreflight charts tab allows you to access to a free set of charts in any case. When you plan and pack your flight it will fetch the required charts for you.

[math341c]

Good to hear, thank you very much for the help.

[Field Required]

No probs, it also gives you a preflight briefing you can print out or just read through which covers WX, Notams, PLOG etc. Just dont forget to properly check the NOTAMs when flying IFR. Many gotchas there.

[GKLondon]

I’ve not once manually plotted an IFR route in all my life. You just create it using whatever you like, file the plan and then load it in the fms/gps. Of course during the IR course you’ll fly raw data but that doesn’t change your plan.

I used to have 12kg+ of charts in my flight case, and before a flight spread enroute charts out over the dining table with a highlighter in hand to do the route.

[45989]

For somebody developing their skills?

Paper chart, PLOG, whizz-wheel. For both VFR and IFR.

Use the computer to source met and NOTAMs, if necessary for downloading approach plates, then leave it alone. You need to learn the basic principles as well as possible, not learn how to use software to make your life easier - that comes later.

If you really must, have plates and a chart in flight on a tablet on something like Rocketroute. And have them on paper as well, and make damned sure that EVERYTHING you do is on paper until you have passed your CPL and IR.
Genghis.... Nail on the head. Magenta line rears it's ugly head again. Basics? Who needs such trivia? Apple or Google will sort it. Till the Merde arrives..........

[modular atpl]

looks good, I have to try one

[Brian Pern]

Banana Joe

Flight schools need to inject solid basic skills first. The fact is that you can still function without the EFB, because you know how. And also when presented with a totally different system, you will have the advantage of that fundamental knowledge in learning your way into the new system. The pilot who has *only* done things using the latest software interface, may be at something of a disadvantage.

Also, not everybody is an airline pilot.

This. if you only ever learn how to push buttons, then you really are a Child of the Magenta Line. The old skills are disappearing. What would you do if you had a FMC Failure and had to rely on basic skills? You know flying to and from a Nav aid, yep even airliners sometimes fail, they certainly do when I am examining in the sim, often to the surprise of the kids being examined.

[Brian Pern]

Thank you for the help and clarification it give sense now. I do also not see the sense making it on paper. It is just waste of paper. And about learning; I can learn the same things doing it in a software. I need to know what all the symbols on the charts know etc, I have a book for that that explains it all. I just wanted a software where I have all in one for planning. It seems that ForeFLight is the good option.

I will take a look at ForeFlight, but when I see their basic subscription it also says that it covers VFR, so I do need need SKYDEMON subscription anymore? ForeFlight is covers the VFR features?

Sadly you don't seem to have much sense at all. I cannot for the life of me understand why you would not want to know how to do things on paper. You may one day get the chance of some interesting flying, ferry, airtest etc other than A to B, I can assure you the normal stuff will get boring.
During the covid shutdown, I and a old friend of mine, he is a TRI with a rather large 737 operator head office in Dublin did some ferry flights to the middle east and beyond on older 73's. I spent several days with him, getting him up to speed on planning, ploting etc all on paper, even though I have Jepp on ipads, because if things go wrong, you are on your own. He was astounded, he had never learnt these basic skills and felt humbled by this old lag. He is now using some of the old ways to teach airmanship to the FO's at his base.
You want to be a Professional Pilot, you should know how to fly, not just button press. What would you do if your iPad went off over the Sahara?

[lederhosen]

As a retired airline pilot I was amazed when I started IFR private flying again. There are some really impressive computer tools now available most of which have been referred to above. One point I would emphasize from real world experience. Where I fly at least, the preferred route system makes doing IFR planning by hand a non starter. Autorouter does a great job generating flight plans and briefing packs efficiently and at nil cost, a great system!

[Contact Approach]

I can vouch for what lederhosen says. I’ve flown a fair bit IFR so far in my career and the software keeps things simple and effective. Use skyvector or something else if necessary to see how difficult to plan an IFR trip across Europe can be particularly for performance limited GA aircraft.