Group Captains Galore

[LincsFM]

Just wondering if this is the new normal and to ensure we have more Group Captains!!

Group Captain M D Lorriman-Hughes OBE to be Officer Commanding Royal Air Force Waddington in January 2022 in succession to Group Captain S P Kilvington.

Group Captain C R Melville OBE to be Commander Air Wing, Royal Air Force Waddington in May 2021. This is a new post.

[Friedlander]

Just wondering if this is the new normal and to ensure we have more Group Captains!!

Group Captain M D Lorriman-Hughes OBE to be Officer Commanding Royal Air Force Waddington in January 2022 in succession to Group Captain S P Kilvington.

Group Captain C R Melville OBE to be Commander Air Wing, Royal Air Force Waddington in May 2021. This is a new post.

One to oversee the flying and station support functions, the other to keep an eye on the RAF Regiment!?

Too soon?

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Just wondering if this is the new normal and to ensure we have more Group Captains!!

Group Captain M D Lorriman-Hughes OBE to be Officer Commanding Royal Air Force Waddington in January 2022 in succession to Group Captain S P Kilvington.

Group Captain C R Melville OBE to be Commander Air Wing, Royal Air Force Waddington in May 2021. This is a new post.
I'm surprised there aren't greater concentrations of them at active stations given that there are around 280 Group Captains and an ever dwindling number of bases. :-(

[Martin the Martian]

Perhaps they will raise station commanders to Air Commodore rank next?

[Warmtoast]

ISTR that RAF aircraft inventory totals c..475 aircraft. That gives each Group Captain two aircraft supervise / look after. What do the rest of the senior officers do?

[Fortissimo]

Cynicism aside, it might be worth considering the span of control for the current Stn Cdr? Details of resident units here (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/stations/raf-waddington/) for those who are interested. RAFAT due as well, and in terms of the Environmental Protection Act (personal accountability for the CO), the station with all its BFIs and weapon storage sits on a Grade 1 aquifer. Add in the Air Warfare Centre and EWAD as major lodger units and you have a bit of a handful. The workload on annual reports alone doesn't bear thinking about. Splitting the responsibilities between 2 people might actually allow all elements of the job to be tackled properly. I think it is a sensible move and, as a taxpayer, I quite like the idea that activities might be adequately supervised.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

ISTR that RAF aircraft inventory totals c..475 aircraft. That gives each Group Captain two aircraft supervise / look after. What do the rest of the senior officers do?

They create absolute messes like Astra and the inept 80:20 synthetic:live fly strategy.

[LincsFM]

Cynicism aside, it might be worth considering the span of control for the current Stn Cdr? Details of resident units here (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/stations/raf-waddington/) for those who are interested. RAFAT due as well, and in terms of the Environmental Protection Act (personal accountability for the CO), the station with all its BFIs and weapon storage sits on a Grade 1 aquifer. Add in the Air Warfare Centre and EWAD as major lodger units and you have a bit of a handful. The workload on annual reports alone doesn't bear thinking about. Splitting the responsibilities between 2 people might actually allow all elements of the job to be tackled properly. I think it is a sensible move and, as a taxpayer, I quite like the idea that activities might be adequately supervised.

EWAD disbanded 10+ years ago when the R1 left service. As for the rest of the units 5 Sqn is about to disband and 8 Sqn will soon be moving to Lossie

[NutLoose]

Cynicism aside, it might be worth considering the span of control for the current Stn Cdr? Details of resident units here (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/stations/raf-waddington/) for those who are interested. RAFAT due as well, and in terms of the Environmental Protection Act (personal accountability for the CO), the station with all its BFIs and weapon storage sits on a Grade 1 aquifer. Add in the Air Warfare Centre and EWAD as major lodger units and you have a bit of a handful. The workload on annual reports alone doesn't bear thinking about. Splitting the responsibilities between 2 people might actually allow all elements of the job to be tackled properly. I think it is a sensible move and, as a taxpayer, I quite like the idea that activities might be adequately supervised.


The word delegation comes to mind, oddly enough it used to work well..

[The Oberon]

Cynicism aside, it might be worth considering the span of control for the current Stn Cdr? Details of resident units here (https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/stations/raf-waddington/) for those who are interested. RAFAT due as well, and in terms of the Environmental Protection Act (personal accountability for the CO), the station with all its BFIs and weapon storage sits on a Grade 1 aquifer. Add in the Air Warfare Centre and EWAD as major lodger units and you have a bit of a handful. The workload on annual reports alone doesn't bear thinking about. Splitting the responsibilities between 2 people might actually allow all elements of the job to be tackled properly. I think it is a sensible move and, as a taxpayer, I quite like the idea that activities might be adequately supervised.
The AWC, although a lodger, was independent of the station and commanded by an Air Commodore, assisted by 3 Group Captains.

[Asturias56]

Nearly as bad as the RN - 34 serving Admirals, Vice Admirals and Rear Admirals and 75 ships.4 Mar 2019

Or the CoE who seem to have more and more Bishops as the number of worshippers plummets

[Easy Street]

Perhaps someone needs to have a word with the secretariat of the Government Major Projects Portfolio, which I gather is concerned that too few 1*s have been loaded up with 'Senior Responsible Owner' duties for too many very large acquisition programmes (list here (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/898122/SRO_list_for_Q2_1920.csv/preview)). Is the answer to have more 1*s, or to push SRO duties down the rank scale, or to civilianise the sponsor/SRO function for military equipment programmes? Before answering that you might want to consider what civvy street pays those responsible for delivering just *one* hundred-million pound programme, never mind multiple billion-pound programmes, and compare to the military pay scales.

[Old-Duffer]

This seems to mirror the USAF with its 'base commander' and 'wing commander' - one looks after the hardware/people etc and t'other the operations. Until a few years ago DHFS had a similar split and with everything being packed into a smaller number of bases it might be seen as the way to go.

When I suggested to a stn cdr a while ago that he had hardly been in post anytime at all, he told me that after a 'single cycle' (a year or so) he was liable to move on as there were so few stn cdr slots and lots of budding gp capts who needed to prove themselves.

Old Duffer

[Ken Scott]

When I suggested to a stn cdr a while ago that he had hardly been in post anytime at all, he told me that after a 'single cycle' (a year or so) he was liable to move on as there were so few stn cdr slots and lots of budding gp capts who needed to prove themselves.

This accords with the realisation I had around half way through my time in the RAF, that the purpose of the organisation was not the delivery of air power but it existed to give its personnel (at least the senior ones) a ‘good career’. If the RAF was able to drop a bomb or deliver a load along the way that was a bonus but not the core task.

[Bergerie1]

What is the collective noun for a group of Group Captains?

[sargs]

They create absolute messes like Astra and the inept 80:10 synthetic:live fly strategy.
Is the other 10% mental arithmetic?

[MPN11]

When I suggested to a stn cdr a while ago that he had hardly been in post anytime at all, he told me that after a 'single cycle' (a year or so) he was liable to move on as there were so few stn cdr slots and lots of budding gp capts who needed to prove themselves.
Like it or not, there always remains the need to have a sufficiently broad career pyramid to ensure that elevation to Air Rank doesn't simply become "Buggins Turn". As the RAF got smaller, there grew a need for additional appointments at OF-5 and up to ensure that those moving on to 1* had relevant experience (and, importantly, assessments). It's simply necessary!

As a former member of the small GD(G)ATC Branch this was particularly noticeable, In 1990 the Air Force List shows we had one 1* (AOC MATO), 3 gp capt and 36 wg cdr. It didn't need a PhD to work out who was going places! And as the Branch shrank even further (airfield closures, Area Radar units amalgamating at Swanwick, HQ MATO closing and merging at HQ STC/HQ Air with our Fighter Control brethren) it inevitably became harder to find appointments to develop and evaluate those high flyers. That led to a few in-house surprises around the turn of the Century!

[jimjim1]

What is the collective noun for a group of Group Captains?

A Bevvy.

PPrunish padding.

[ZH875]

An Over-rule of Group Captains.

[MPN11]

A Scrambled Egg of ... ?

[Dan Gerous]

A Groupon?

[Wensleydale]

A Hope of Group Captains?

[Stuff]

Just wondering if this is the new normal and to ensure we have more Group Captains!!

It's the new normal. The idea is that you split the traditional Stn Cdr role into a Commander Air Wing who as aircrew can be the Duty Holder and Head of Establishment who would normally be a non-aircrew branch. This then allows non-aircrew to command at flying stations and widens the pool of people who can be selected for promotion to 1* and beyond. In time, this will mean we will see a greater variety of branches in the top jobs.

[Brewers Droop]

A grump??????

[NutLoose]

A groupie?

[cynicalint]

Janus..........?

[popeye107]

Ask your MP. There are more Group Captains now than there were in WW2.
work that one out, each costing £137000. Compare a USMC with 60000 and 1/10th of the show boaters!

[Union Jack]

Nearly as bad as the RN - 34 serving Admirals, Vice Admirals and Rear Admirals and 75 ships.4 Mar 2019

Or the CoE who seem to have more and more Bishops as the number of worshippers plummets
Instead of doing what so many other civilians do through lack of awareness, trotting out this timeworn trope, perhaps Asturias could do himself a favour and some homework, and establish the very wide range of appointments these officers of flag rank actually hold, often in dual-hatted roles, not just in purely naval posts, but in tri-Service and multi-national posts. Once that's done, he can come back with a more realistic assessment of just how "bad" the figure he quotes actually is. Other Services are of course available....

Not being C of E, I'll leave the question of the bishops to someone else.

Jack

[Big Pistons Forever]

Prerequisites for promotion

On promotion to Sqn Ldr = remove spine
On promotion to Wing Cdr = remove heart
On promotion to Grp Capt = remove brain

And now we have people perfectly suited for flag rank....

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Is the other 10% mental arithmetic?

Ha, yes it was. Edited.

[Haraka]

If you look at the titles :Rank Structure erosion has been an ongoing process for decades.......

[Asturias56]

"Once that's done, he can come back with a more realistic assessment of just how "bad" the figure he quotes actually is"

Like it or not people associate Admirals with commanding fleets and Wing Commanders with commanding Wings of Aircraft

They also notice the numbers of these eminent people don't seem to fall when the actual front line numbers of people and kit does (as with the bishops)

​​​​​​​Perhaps we should change their titles to reflect what they do???

[Bergerie1]

Paper Officer, Filing Officer, Form Lieutenant, Desk Leader, Pen Commander, Obfuscation Captain, Corridor Commodore?

[Haraka]

Paper Officer, Filing Officer, Form Lieutenant, Desk Leader, Pen Commander, Obfuscation Captain, Corridor Commodore?
Taking full account of observance of D&I and BAME protocols of course.

[tucumseh]

"Once that's done, he can come back with a more realistic assessment of just how "bad" the figure he quotes actually is"

Like it or not people associate Admirals with commanding fleets and Wing Commanders with commanding Wings of Aircraft

They also notice the numbers of these eminent people don't seem to fall when the actual front line numbers of people and kit does (as with the bishops)

​​​​​​​Perhaps we should change their titles to reflect what they do???


Indeed. The civil service used to have a concept of 'limited opportunity' posts. It recognised that certain posts required the authority to, for example, task others or be seen to be a 'customer' to industry; but otherwise the majority of the work could be done by a junior clerk. Spares Ranging and Scaling was always the obvious example on the engineering side; albeit a few grades below Group Captain. They could not be promoted until they'd moved sideways and achieved two good annual reports in a post in which the Job Description could be reconciled with the Grade Description. (Rigorously applying the Grade Descriptions would save a fortune, as there'd be very few promotions allowed!) I can think of a number of (un)suitable Group Captains I came across. But the vast majority were excellent.

[Bob Viking]

There are probably the sum total of about 12 UK citizens (I may have slightly exaggerated that number for comedic effect) outside of the British military that either know or care what an Admiral or a Gp Capt is. You are evidently one of them.

The bottom line is that the senior officers in question are employed to do a job and they do it. Whilst that may no longer mean commanding ships and Sqns they still have a role to play.

The amount of bureaucracy (think Haddon Cave and the MAA for example) that has come about in recent years obviously requires a few grown ups to deal with it.

Whilst we are repeatedly told everything was much better in the good old days remember that things are not the same as they once were. That is for good and bad.

For example, we no longer accept service deaths as just ‘one of those things’ or brush things under the carpet to save face. We have much more accountability these days.

It is not the military that chose to go down the path of massive regulation and accountability but they must stick to it. That requires senior officers to put their name on a document and accept the blame when things go wrong.

If you can actually identify a single senior officer of any service that is not gainfully employed in a job befitting their rank then I would be surprised.

BV

[esscee]

Not sure if this is true today, however a few years ago the highest rank in the Israeli Air Force was a the equivalent of a Brigadier General. They may have a fair few aircraft than UK, but as someone will point out no doubt less than the RAF. Far too many high ranking officers in the Armed Forces overall, more admirals than ships/boats for example. Cut out 50% of high ranks/posts etc and start to save some money that way.

[Ninthace]

What is the collective noun for a group of Group Captains?
A seniority?

[Maxibon]

A pension of group captains?

[sharpend]

Ridiculous. I remember when Sqn Ldrs were squadron commanders and Flt Lts flight commanders.

[Union Jack]

There are probably the sum total of about 12 UK citizens (I may have slightly exaggerated that number for comedic effect) outside of the British military that either know or care what an Admiral or a Gp Capt is. You are evidently one of them.

The bottom line is that the senior officers in question are employed to do a job and they do it. Whilst that may no longer mean commanding ships and Sqns they still have a role to play.

The amount of bureaucracy (think Haddon Cave and the MAA for example) that has come about in recent years obviously requires a few grown ups to deal with it.

Whilst we are repeatedly told everything was much better in the good old days remember that things are not the same as they once were. That is for good and bad.

For example, we no longer accept service deaths as just ‘one of those things’ or brush things under the carpet to save face. We have much more accountability these days.

It is not the military that chose to go down the path of massive regulation and accountability but they must stick to it. That requires senior officers to put their name on a document and accept the blame when things go wrong.

If you can actually identify a single senior officer of any service that is not gainfully employed in a job befitting their rank then I would be surprised.

BV

Very well said BV but, having worked for the Naval Secretary, I would actually be more astonished than surprised. Regrettably, Mr Asturias's Post # 32 seems to suggest that he's either not prepared or not able to take up my modest challenge. It's simply a matter of fact that numbers of officers of flag rank and their equivalent have reduced sharply over recent years.

Jack

[Union Jack]

Not sure if this is true today, however a few years ago the highest rank in the Israeli Air Force was a the equivalent of a Brigadier General. They may have a fair few aircraft than UK, but as someone will point out no doubt less than the RAF. Far too many high ranking officers in the Armed Forces overall, more admirals than ships/boats for example. Cut out 50% of high ranks/posts etc and start to save some money that way.
Oh look! Hot from the press: https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/the-chief-of-the-air-staff-has-visited-israel/ :D

The proper use of "plethora" is sometimes a useful way of describing excess numbers.....

Jack

[MPN11]

Ridiculous. I remember when Sqn Ldrs were squadron commanders and Flt Lts flight commanders.
Well, some of them were ... and some weren’t.

WW2 heavy bomber sqns had wg cdrs, did they not? And Air Cdres commanded their clutch of Base airfields (main plus 1-2 satellites). Post WW2, most front line FJ, and certainly V-Force, sqns had wg cdrs almost from startex. Presumably based on their sqns’ importance in the Defence constellation? At Tengah, wg cdrs ran the Javelin//Lightning sqns, but sqn ldrs ran the Hunter/Canberra sqns.

No doubt someone will explain why VC-10 captains needed A/sqn ldr rank, but that’s a separate handbagging topic! 😎

[Old-Duffer]

On the face of it, it might seem that there are too many VSOs for the size of the air force, ditto other services but there are some good reasons for this apparent abundance. Some of the reasons have been touched on already.

There is the obvious one that you need 25X in order that 35 years later 1X pops out the top. There is an international equivalence to be considered and hence an apparent over promotion. The complexity of the modern services requires appropriate remuneration and the only way seen to do this is by advancing rank (it might be that some people could be paid a premium without promotion – a sort of Branch Officer/specialist setup for higher ups). We still seem to have a pyramid of 3 times A reports to 1 times B but then 3 times B report to 1 times C etc.

In about 1994 there was a study undertaken to consider ranks, rank skipping and one or two other things, including doing away with some ranks entirely but as long as those most likely to be affected are probably the same people who will decide the study’s outcome, it won’t happen. The only outcome of the 1994 study was that Marshals of the RAF wouldn’t normally feature!

Old Duffer

[Easy Street]

Ridiculous. I remember when Sqn Ldrs were squadron commanders and Flt Lts flight commanders.

Bomber squadrons were commanded by wing commanders from as early as January 1925 due to the larger number of aircrew and technicians required to fly and maintain these larger and more complex machines. Fighter squadrons got there in the 1950s and 1960s as the complexity of their aircraft increased. Meanwhile groups have been commanded by AVMs since at least the 1940s. You either have a long memory, or are thinking of training squadrons...

[Asturias56]

Didn't Parkinson's say

" Superiors generate subordinates"

[Fareastdriver]

You either have a long memory, or are thinking of training squadrons...

Not that long ago. 103, 110 and 230 Squadron had Sqn Ldr commanders until the 1970s.

[Haraka]

No doubt someone will explain why VC-10 captains needed A/sqn ldr rank, but that’s a separate handbagging topic

"The ring of confidence " :)

[DC10RealMan]

I suspect that it would help their confidence when dealing with real VC10 Captains such as BOAC Captains down route.

[Old-Duffer]

Far East Driver is correct and then again 22 Sqn was the largest (in aircraft terms) and was also commanded by a sqn ldr.

The RAF (until about 1969) had General and Supplementary Lists, several types of direct entry aircrew commissions and Branch officers. The General List (eg Cranwell grads) were those on full career terms and the Supplementary List contained the 'also rans'. It was possible to transfer from supplementary to general (I did it about a year before it was abolished - but then I took my 'B' and 'C' exams the year they were binned and so was trebly f**^ed).

I do believe that there is a place for those who simply want to fly or whatever and those who genuinely aspire to carve a successful career and as long as the latter realise that : a. they are favoured and b. don't think they are God's gift and try to lord it over others, things can work. There used to be a retired AVM who resided at Cranwell and his job was to read Forms 1369 (confidential reports) and pick out 'high flyers' or put the black spot on the no hopers.

Of interest, there were a significant number of Cranwell graduates who, having been promoted to sqn ldr en masse, didn't get any further.

Perhaps somebody will resurrect the 'green shield stamp' sqn ldrs - HEY HO!!!!

Old Duffer

[Yellow Sun]

As an archetypal Old Cold Warrior I accept that things have changed. The Air Force is much smaller but strives to be better and more effective. It seems to achieve this but I do worry that it retains sufficient mass. The overburden of administration and legislation however has certainly not decreased in proportion to the force size, if anything the opposite has occurred. I recently read:

“The Changing of the Guard - the British Army Since 9/11” by Simon Akam (https://scribepublications.co.uk/books-authors/books/the-changing-of-the-guard).

Whilst one might not agree with all Akam writes; and he refers specifically to the army; there is much in his book that at the least should provoke thought. I am sure that the other two services have similar traits. At the core of Akam’s concerns, is that the army still lacks accountability and tends to reward failure. I am sure it has raised blood pressure in places, but I am equally sure that some aspects will ring true to most who have served in any of the services.

On a lighter and mischievous note, I should enjoy asking one of the myriad Diversity and Inclusion Zampol managers “....and what is your war role?”

YS
😇

[Melchett01]

Not that long ago. 103, 110 and 230 Squadron had Sqn Ldr commanders until the 1970s.

OC 28 Sqn was a Sqn Ldr at the point of the Sqn’s disbandment in 97 when we handed HK back, becoming a Wg Cdr’s post only in 2001 when it reformed at Benson.

[Red Line Entry]

This is a regular argument that appears on this website every now and then. And yet, those who trot out the ‘more Air Marshals than Sqns’ line never seem able to answer the challenge below.

if there are so many excess senior officers, name 5 air rank posts that you would disestablish today. Should be easy, shouldn’t it?

[Burnswannabe]

Not that long ago. 103, 110 and 230 Squadron had Sqn Ldr commanders until the 1970s.

So just 50 years or thereabouts. So very soon that will be nearer to the inception of the RAF than the current day. 🤣

[30-20-20]

This is a regular argument that appears on this website every now and then. And yet, those who trot out the ‘more Air Marshals than Sqns’ line never seem able to answer the challenge below.

if there are so many excess senior officers, name 5 air rank posts that you would disestablish today. Should be easy, shouldn’t it?

1* Force Commanders - let the Groups manage their assets

[DaveJ75]

Interesting debate. Stuff and Bob Viking have it spot on - the current duty holder hierarchy requires each level of risk (specifically Risk to Life, although wider functional safety risk is salient) to be owned by those with the authority and resources to effectively manage that risk. As you may imagine, the higher levels of risk require owners with more levers to pull, hence more Group Captains these days. Most I have met performing these roles are extremely switched on and often hampered by budget.

RA1210 illustrates the post Haddon-Cave SRM responsibilities: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-article-ra-1210-ownership-and-management-of-operating-risk-risk-to-life

Obviously the realities are much more complicated and nuanced to warrant an exhaustive description of here but those are the bare bones of it.

[teeteringhead]

Two facts I regularly throw into these threads, so I apologise in advance to those I've bored with them before!

1. The RAF I joined had about 150 000 personnel, about 7 Commands/Air Forces and Lord knows how many aircraft. And was run by a 4-star CAS. Now the RAF numbers in the low 30 000s, has one Command, not many aircraft and .... er .... is run by a 4-star CAS!

2. The Met Police has more people in uniform (about 35 000) and has a total of 11 ranks (from Constable to Commissioner), which is 2 or 3 more than most forces. The RAF has about 18 (not quite sure where we are with Tech ranks and Rockape L/Cpls).

Discuss........

[MPN11]

teeteringhead, IIRC there was anout a dozen ...

Bomber, Fighter, Coastal, Transport, Flying Training, Tech Training, Signals, Maintenance ...
RAF Germany, Far East AF, Near East AF, AF Middle East ...

... and I’m sure I’ve missed one!

[Just This Once...]

2. The Met Police has more people in uniform (about 35 000) and has a total of 11 ranks (from Constable to Commissioner), which is 2 or 3 more than most forces. The RAF has about 18 (not quite sure where we are with Tech ranks and Rockape L/Cpls).

Discuss........

One is police force that has responsibly for the majority of just one city and one is a military force with responsibilities across the globe that can face armed conflict in the most hostile of environments.

Or how about Lincolnshire police - with an annual budget that could not run just one of the squadrons at Waddington yet has a Chief Constable that is salaried around £165k.

Completely meaningless stats (both yours and mine) and utterly superfluous when we have have a parsimonious Treasury-led pay review process for the Armed Forces that does include job-weighting and civilian equivalents in its terms of reference.

[MPN11]

Only £100,000 p/a for a Chief Inspector of Police here in our peaceful little Island, with a population of about 110,000. 😎

https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Working%20in%20Jersey/GD%20Police%20pay%20scales.pdf

[spekesoftly]

But net pay probably very similar, given Jersey's less punative income tax?

[MPN11]

But net pay probably very similar, given Jersey's less punative income tax?
Our taxation is lower than UK ... in that essentially it’s 20% with no upper band. So the higher earners actually do considerably better here.

[Union Jack]

Only £100,000 p/a for a Chief Inspector of Police here in our peaceful little Island, with a population of about 110,000. 😎

https://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Working%20in%20Jersey/GD%20Police%20pay%20scales.pdf
If only Bergerac had tried harder....

Jack

[Tankertrashnav]

Bomber, Fighter, Coastal, Transport, Flying Training, Tech Training, Signals ...
RAF Germany, Far East AF, Near East AF, AF Middle East ...

... and I’m sure I’ve missed one!

Maintenance Command. Always happy to oblige MPN 11 ;)

TTN

Talking of group captains and command HQs, I seem to recall there were 26 group captains at HQ FEAF at Changi when I was in Singapore in 1967.

[minigundiplomat]

This thread reminds me of that picture of a dozen managers stood around in high viz, holding clipboards, and watching one polish guy dig up the street.


The number of VSO's is unjustifiable, and has been for years. I remember being at Cranwitz at the height of the Iraq/Afghanistan distractions, and being astonished to find there was a Gp Capt for each of the pillars of leadership - WTAF?

[Imagegear]

If the terms to leave fail to exceed expectations, no one will go especially if outside prospects are minimal.

IG

[Easy Street]

teeteeinghead's point about the RAF still being commanded by a 4* despite a fivefold reduction in size is, IMHO, completely undermined by the reduction in 4* posts over the same period with the disappearance of the C-in-C posts along with the commands (eightfold, by your reckoning: 7 commands plus one CAS, to just one CAS). One was retained as DCINC Air for a while but went a decade ago. So just one RAF 4* now (unless we're also filling UK StratCom, VCDS, CDS or NATO CMC).

30-20-20: if you were to abolish the 1* FCs, would you re-establish the 1* posts in Group HQs which preceded them? Just wondering whether you think the FCs actually do anything useful on behalf of the AOCs... they are not an 'additional' lower level of command, just parts of the Group HQ which happen to be dislocated from High Wycombe.

[downsizer]

Possibly controversial opinion....

I think a bigger waste is the number of Sqn Ldrs and Wing Commanders.

[teeteringhead]

Well I certainly started something there!! ;)

[MPN11]

Maintenance Command. Always happy to oblige MPN 11 ;)

Thanks, TTN ... I vaguely knew because I used to have a long Distribution List at HQ MATO, and the figure of 12 Commands/AFs sort of stuck in my mind!

[oldmansquipper]

As most of the armourers have gone, perhaps the Groupies could take on their collective noun.

`A thicket of Groupies` sounds OK doesn't it? But I expect it will remain a `Plethora`

:ooh:

[minigundiplomat]

Possibly controversial opinion....

I think a bigger waste is the number of Sqn Ldrs and Wing Commanders.

You've eaten in the DFAC too?

I was always amazed at the hordes of SO2's of all three services cutting around KAF/Bastion apparently in HQ roles. There must have been 10 SO2's in a HQ to every lancejack in the field.

[superplum]

As most of the armourers have gone, perhaps the Groupies could take on their collective noun.

`A thicket of Groupies` sounds OK doesn't it? But I expect it will remain a `Plethora`

:ooh:

Tsk! It was never a "thicket" of armourers; the correct term is "a charm"!

:=

[Bergerie1]

Oh no! A charm applies only to goldfinches

[Training Risky]

What is the collective noun for a group of Group Captains?

A Vortex.

(10 characters)

[RetiredBA/BY]

Why not cut the group captain posts by 50 % at a stroke ?
A few years ago BA slashed the management headcount by a similar amount, my daughter was one who bailed out.
Despite the outcry, things continued and BA went on to record record profits.
One group captain per two aircraft is a nonsense.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

OC 28 Sqn was a Sqn Ldr at the point of the Sqn’s disbandment in 97 when we handed HK back, becoming a Wg Cdr’s post only in 2001 when it reformed at Benson.

OC 84 Sqn is still a Sqn Ldr. OC 78 was also a Sqn Ldr in Falklands days (until 2007 ISTR) but became a Wg Cdr when it reformed as a Merlin unit.

[Wensleydale]

On one section that I used to work on...it started with over 300 people back in 1990 with a wing commander, 5 squadron leaders and 15 JOs. When I departed 10 years ago there was one squadron leader, two JOs and a 50% mix of service and civvie with a strength of around 100 people. Still had the same number of secondary duties though (which the civvies didn't do). I had 9 secondary duties when I retired.