What are aviation degree students being told?

[Climb150]

As the title says, what exactly are avaition students at universities that offer flying training being told about job prospects at the end of their course?

A quick flick through pprune would suggest many graduates think that they will go straight to Qlink with 200 hours, or maybe instruct for a year and then Qantas second officer is a given.

Please tell me this isn't true and most people who graduate with 100k+ dollars debt and a CPL have realistic expectations?

[bafanguy]

As the title says, what exactly are avaition students at universities that offer flying training being told about job prospects at the end of their course?

What can anyone tell anyone about the future ? One would have to be clairvoyant to tell anyone what comes next in aviation. (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=clairvoyant&spell=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR89GYq67vAhUlqlkKHYV6B-MQkeECKAB6BAgLEC8)

[bafanguy]

Speculation will be endless. Some of it will ultimately turn out to be accurate but only by the pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey principle.

[Look Mum - no hands]

[QUOTE=Climb150;11008066]As the title says, what exactly are avaition students at universities that offer flying training being told about job prospects at the end of their course?

Whatever they need to hear to be convinced to sign on the dotted lne.

[Flyboy1987]

The Uni lecturers/career advisors in high schools need their @rses kicked.

They’re lieing to vulnerable/hopeful kids, then signing them up to 150k dollar debts in an industry where most will NEVER get a job which pays minimum wage.

There is no pilot shortage in Australia, most likely won’t be anything close to a shortage for 10 years.

Also, I’d imagine that most students have no real interest in actually flying...but more of an interest in walking around Tullamarine in a set of raybans, do 2 trips to LA a month and put cockpit pics on Instagram.

[machtuk]

Gotta remember flying schools, uni's etc are just a business, they generate income they are not there to make you feel good or do anymore for you than the min required to fleece you, job prospects of YOUR problem!

[Speed_Alive_V1]

Academia is often sheltered from the realities of the (any) industry. They'll often sell you on the fact that it takes 2/3/4 years to get educated, and when you get out the industry will be in a better position than it is currently. They'll say, well you won't get a job now anyway so why not spend your time doing something useful like studying. They may be right. Who knows where we will be in a couple of years.

I've just noticed you are referencing flight training institutions specifically. Yes there will be an influx of spare pilots for some time, but the money making machine rolls on as always. Carry on.

[TXU]

The fact that as a potential student to any large flight school you're being 'advised' by business development managers or G3 instructors desperate for hours etc etc speaks volumes and answers your question.

When you incentivise people to sign up new students they same lies get peddled year after year with little regard for the truth.

Let's face it you don't exactly have to be the worlds best salesman to sell the dream of flying for a living!

[Clare Prop]

Caveat emptor.

Way past time the Govt stopped dishing out loans for these courses.

Still waiting for the pilot shortage someone tried to use to sell me a full time CPL course 33 years ago.

I did a few units of an aviation degree and it was truly woeful.

[kingRB]

Caveat emptor.
Still waiting for the pilot shortage someone tried to use to sell me a full time CPL course 33 years ago.


you must have had your eyes shut then.

I've already seen two recruiting bonanzas and big industry movements in Oz since i've been in the game - one around 2005 /2006 pre GFC (which I missed) then another around 10 years later in 2016 / 2017 (which I managed to catch).
It's all about the timing and being ready when the next wave of recruiting arrives - they don't last long but when they are pumping the majors very much can't employ enough pilots.

It may be years now until we see this again, maybe not - but with expanding populations and economies its naive to think there won't be more.

[Climb150]

you must have had your eyes shut then.

I've already seen two recruiting bonanzas and big industry movements in Oz since i've been in the game - one around 2005 /2006 pre GFC (which I missed) then another around 10 years later in 2016 / 2017 (which I managed to catch).
It's all about the timing and being ready when the next wave of recruiting arrives - they don't last long but when they are pumping the majors very much can't employ enough pilots.

It may be years now until we see this again, maybe not - but with expanding populations and economies its naive to think there won't be more.

I hiring spike isnt a pilot shortage. When you have aircraft that can't be crewed, that's a shortage.

[kingRB]

I hiring spike isnt a pilot shortage. When you have aircraft that can't be crewed, that's a shortage.


uh yeah, there were multitudes of aircraft that couldn't be crewed - from all sectors of GA right through to regional airlines

[George Glass]

Hello ?
Reality calling.

DO NOT listen to academics or flying school spruikers.
QF has had most crew stood down for a year. Domestic is slowly coming back but can fall back into the crater as soon as some idiot Premier decides to close the borders again. Noticed what’s happening in QLD and NSW ?
QF International is dead in the water and will take years to recover. The A380s will probably never fly again.
Virgin International is finished. Permanently.
The effect of this pandemic on Aviation and Tourism is beyond catastrophic and will take many , many years to recover.
Go and do something else.

[Squawk7700]

You could say the same thing about University courses in general. You need more supply than demand, as things change and people move on, quit, retire, die or whatever, it’s a fact of life.

To loosely suggest that they should stop training pilots is absurd thinking.

[Jnr380]

As the title says, what exactly are avaition students at universities that offer flying training being told about job prospects at the end of their course?

A quick flick through pprune would suggest many graduates think that they will go straight to Qlink with 200 hours, or maybe instruct for a year and then Qantas second officer is a given.

Please tell me this isn't true and most people who graduate with 100k+ dollars debt and a CPL have realistic expectations?

The two major unis in Melbourne that provide courses are absolutely full of it.

That 100K from a university will probably only cover a CPL, Frozen ATPL with a SECIR (which is useless), it all depends on your finances, get government assistance and walk away with the need to spend an extra $30k to get a MECIR and a Retractable Undercarriage or if you have the money ready to go, you can get all the above for $100K.

If you’re waiting for an upturn in the industry, then maybe consider this path.

Do your CPL and G3 rating - Get a job instructing. While professionally working in the industry, go do your ATPLs and your MECIR and they’ll be claimable on tax so a win-win for you.

[Climb150]

uh yeah, there were multitudes of aircraft that couldn't be crewed - from all sectors of GA right through to regional airlines

Do tell which companies these were that cancelled schedules? Rex I think used it as an excuse but that was due to them not being able to train new hires fast enough.

[Climb150]

You could say the same thing about University courses in general. You need more supply than demand, as things change and people move on, quit, retire, die or whatever, it’s a fact of life.

To loosely suggest that they should stop training pilots is absurd thinking.

I'm not saying that at all. You have missed the point entirely. Anecdotal evidence suggests these unis grossly misrepresent the opportunities available to students on graduation.

Now the student should have a little more common sense than to think that when they finish they will walk straight into a dash 8 but unis need to be truthful about employment stats for graduates.

Actually whilst I don't think Unis should stop flight training completely, I do think Unis should not be able to access govt funds unless the admission prerequisites are much higher. You could rack up the same level of debt for a medical or law degree but at least these degrees have transferable skills. A CPL is a one trick pony and completely useless outside of flying planes. Getting into Law or Medicine also requires you to be crazy smart. Avaition degree courses seem to take anyone with a pulse.

​​​​

[Deltasierra010]

Any relevant engineering or technical degree would be OK aeronautical engineering probably a good choice, join the university flying club, get a scholarship and see how it goes, either way you’re going to need a second string, lots of opportunities in aviation related businesses.

[dream747]

Tell them not to come to PPRUNE. :}

[lucille]

If you’re going to do a degree, at least do a proper one - one from any of the STEM disciplines. Then go spend your $100K on flying lessons. This degree will make you a far better pilot in the long term.

A MECIR with 200 hours TT is a joke, you’re uninsurable and only your daddy will employ you.

It’s no coincidence that the providers of aviation degrees are mostly former hairdressing colleges now calling themselves universities.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Hello ?
Reality calling.

DO NOT listen to academics or flying school spruikers.
QF has had most crew stood down for a year. Domestic is slowly coming back but can fall back into the crater as soon as some idiot Premier decides to close the borders again. Noticed what’s happening in QLD and NSW ?
QF International is dead in the water and will take years to recover. The A380s will probably never fly again.
Virgin International is finished. Permanently.
The effect of this pandemic on Aviation and Tourism is beyond catastrophic and will take many , many years to recover.
Go and do something else.

What rubbish. This, like EVERY other downturn will change direction.

Either be ready to join the wave - or don’t, but the wave will come regardless.

[George Glass]

What rubbish. This, like EVERY other downturn will change direction.

Either be ready to join the wave - or don’t, but the wave will come regardless.

There are QF A380 Captains driving buses. There are displaced A380 F/Os and Second officers that will be rehired before any new hires.There are B747 pilots yet to go through the QF reduction in numbers process. Virgin has shut down its whole international division. Tiger is gone.There are expats retuning from Emirates , Cathay etc.
Believe what you like. There will be a surplus of experienced jet pilots in Australia for the foreseeable future.

[A320LGW]

If you’re going to do a degree, at least do a proper one - one from any of the STEM disciplines. Then go spend your $100K on flying lessons. This degree will make you a far better pilot in the long term.

A MECIR with 200 hours TT is a joke, you’re uninsurable and only your daddy will employ you.

It’s no coincidence that the providers of aviation degrees are mostly former hairdressing colleges now calling themselves universities.

Dont know about training standards down under but in Europe 200hrs is the point to advance onto turboprops/medium range jets. All works well here and I had no issues starting in an airline at that 'experience' level. I actually had 160TT when I flew my first passengers in a turboprop.

Anyway I agree the shortage is a scam the world over. I hate reading it and wish it could somehow be classed as false advertising and made illegal. A hiring boom is NOT a shortage. I have heard anecdotally that the US did actually have a shortage around 3 years back, though I don't know of any shortage to have occurred in Europe at least!

[engine out]

It’s not just University that sell these stories, flying schools (not all) are equally as bad. At the end of the day they are a business and want your money through the door. As with all things it’s buyer beware. The people who sign up need to take some responsibility for their actions or lack of career investigation.

[Petit-Lion]

It’s not just University that sell these stories, flying schools (not all) are equally as bad. At the end of the day they are a business and want your money through the door. As with all things it’s buyer beware. The people who sign up need to take some responsibility for their actions or lack of career investigation.
"Money flows naturally from the pocket of the dumb to the pocket of the smart" is one way to define business ethics. There are other ways, but they require legislation.

[Ixixly]

Dont know about training standards down under but in Europe 200hrs is the point to advance onto turboprops/medium range jets. All works well here and I had no issues starting in an airline at that 'experience' level. I actually had 160TT when I flew my first passengers in a turboprop.

Anyway I agree the shortage is a scam the world over. I hate reading it and wish it could somehow be classed as false advertising and made illegal. A hiring boom is NOT a shortage. I have heard anecdotally that the US did actually have a shortage around 3 years back, though I don't know of any shortage to have occurred in Europe at least!

No offence, but there was a reason why the Buffalo crash in the US made them take stock on experience levels for crews. A lot of Pilots might be fine at 160TT but honestly, at that point you're still a very unknown quantity and I think the industry has been riding on past experienced crew for far too long and hoping for the best.

In relation to Universities and what they're telling students, we recently had one posting on here about being told to go do a "Jet Orientation Course" and MCC with about 200hrs TT. I personally did a single semester at a Uni about 12years ago when they were still relatively new and it was awful, lots of talk about Qantas Cadetships which never came about in any meaningful fashion and plenty of courses that were completely irrelevant to Aviation let alone being a Pilot along with people involved who really had no idea, seems like not a lot has changed tbh.

[TheBlackHand]

Surely the Qantas cadets being pumped out of FTA Tawoomba will have a more direct route into Qlink or mainline... surely? They paid the money, and I’m sure were promised the world, not guaranteed anything of course. The first group were even named “the golden 11” to make everyone feel special.
Seriously all jokes aside, it would be good business to get those first groups jobs at qantas ASAP, at least to show future wannabes at FTA that there is a chance after signing up, and therefore guaranteeing fta a more secure future income until the contract with qantas runs its course/ pandemic disappears.

[George Glass]

When the sh#t hits the fan on a dark and stormy night and the bloke in the right hand seat has 200 hours TT its single pilot IFR if your in the left hand seat. Been there. I don’t know how the regulatory authorities have let it happen. Glad I’m retiring soon. The industry ain’t what it used to be.
Very sad.

[havick]

Ixixly has hit the mail on the head. It’s especially humoring to hear that a lot of the instructors teaching MCC have never flown in a two pilot operation in their life.

[ZFT]

No offence, but there was a reason why the Buffalo crash in the US made them take stock on experience levels for crews. A lot of Pilots might be fine at 160TT but honestly, at that point you're still a very unknown quantity and I think the industry has been riding on past experienced crew for far too long and hoping for the best.

In relation to Universities and what they're telling students, we recently had one posting on here about being told to go do a "Jet Orientation Course" and MCC with about 200hrs TT. I personally did a single semester at a Uni about 12years ago when they were still relatively new and it was awful, lots of talk about Qantas Cadetships which never came about in any meaningful fashion and plenty of courses that were completely irrelevant to Aviation let alone being a Pilot along with people involved who really had no idea, seems like not a lot has changed tbh.

Why did experience (or the lack off) have any relevance to Buffalo?

Incompetence, poor training yes, but experience no

[dr dre]

Why did experience (or the lack off) have any relevance to Buffalo?

Incompetence, poor training yes, but experience no

Truth. Colgan 3407 was not caused by fresh CPL new hires who were an unknown quantity. Both pilots had prior professional flying experience before joining Colgan. The Captain had failed multiple prior checks which he didn’t disclose to Colgan, so he definitely wasn’t a “known” quantity to them. The FO had previous experience as a flying instructor in sunny Arizona, which didn’t really help out in a Buffalo NY snowstorm.

To an airline a 5-10,000hr pilot is only a known quantity for as much as you can glean from them during a brief selection process, many an airline has recruited a high houred pilot only to discover the person they thought they were hiring was not the person who existed in reality.

Not only does the rest of the world outside of the USA put low time pilots into the FO seat, it’s been going on in Australia for decades at a rate higher than most posters here would realise. Norwegians, Swedes, Finns other Europeans can put low houred CPLs into the RHS of a big turboprop or jet and have them operate in poor winter conditions in near perfect safety.

A thorough selection process combined with standardised and appropriate training and oversight avoids the problems which led to a Colgan 3407 crash.

[A320LGW]

No offence, but there was a reason why the Buffalo crash in the US made them take stock on experience levels for crews. A lot of Pilots might be fine at 160TT but honestly, at that point you're still a very unknown quantity and I think the industry has been riding on past experienced crew for far too long and hoping for the best.

In relation to Universities and what they're telling students, we recently had one posting on here about being told to go do a "Jet Orientation Course" and MCC with about 200hrs TT. I personally did a single semester at a Uni about 12years ago when they were still relatively new and it was awful, lots of talk about Qantas Cadetships which never came about in any meaningful fashion and plenty of courses that were completely irrelevant to Aviation let alone being a Pilot along with people involved who really had no idea, seems like not a lot has changed tbh.

No offence taken at all. Regarding the Buffalo incident, the Captain had 3,400hrs and the FO had 2,300hrs. They both exceeded the 1,500hr rule that was allegedly brought in to stop a reoccurrence, in other words as far as experience goes there is nothing about these new rules today that would have stopped those two pilots sitting together in the same cockpit doing the same thing.

Beyond the first few hundred hours it is mainly raw skill and quality of training that dictate the quality of the pilot. You know as well as I do that there are 500hr FOs out there performing better than some 2,000hr FOs.

Again referring back to the Colgan/Buffalo incident, the real question is how a fully qualified crew managed to end up in such a situation. What about training and checking? It sounds like that failed. I did not hear of protests and lobbying to review training and checking procedures though, this would have made far more sense as it was ultimately the reason that plane crashed.

[morno]

Dont know about training standards down under but in Europe 200hrs is the point to advance onto turboprops/medium range jets. All works well here and I had no issues starting in an airline at that 'experience' level. I actually had 160TT when I flew my first passengers in a turboprop.

Anyway I agree the shortage is a scam the world over. I hate reading it and wish it could somehow be classed as false advertising and made illegal. A hiring boom is NOT a shortage. I have heard anecdotally that the US did actually have a shortage around 3 years back, though I don't know of any shortage to have occurred in Europe at least!

The reason we don’t generally have low hour pilots going into the right seat in Australia is not because we think they aren’t capable of it, but we don’t have to do it. There’s a GA industry here that forms the basis of a lot of careers and provides that initial experience that then flows up the industry.

I know the argument about “what relevance does flying a 210 have with flying an A320”, and yes there’s not a lot of relevance in some ways. But I’ve flown with F/O’s with both backgrounds, and it’s beyond the SOP’s where the one with more experience will prove their worth. Problem solving, lateral thinking, workload management, just a few things that come with an experienced pilot.

While there’s hundreds of highly experienced pilots driving buses, there will be very little need to put low time pilots in the right seat in Australia

[neville_nobody]

While there’s hundreds of highly experienced pilots driving buses, there will be very little need to put low time pilots in the right seat in Australia

Well that all depends on what you might get paid. A few people I have spoken to recently are seriously thinking of walking away from aviation as their previous career/business actually is paying the same or more than their aviation one at the moment. Whilst they will probably make more money in the long run flying, the perception is that it isn't worth the hassle of everything that goes with it. Weekends off, No Sim, No CVRs, No nightshift etc for 75-85% of pilot pay is starting to look appealing to some people. Additional to that if you are in business your tax bill decreases somewhat.

[Climb150]

The USA 1500 rule was touted as lifting standards in the cockpit. This wasn't necessarily true. What it was about was improvements to pay and work rules. A 200 hour fresh CPL will work for next to nothing to fly a jet. With 1500 hours they value their experience and expect a more than $1600 a month to live on (the FO wages at the time). You also can't live in most US major cities on that money so people lived at home and commuted to work on jumpseats and slept in crew rooms because they couldn't afford a hotel for a day off between trips.

And judging by pay and contracts now it seems to have worked.

[dr dre]

But I’ve flown with F/O’s with both backgrounds, and it’s beyond the SOP’s where the one with more experience will prove their worth. Problem solving, lateral thinking, workload management, just a few things that come with an experienced pilot.

An experienced pilot could also bring bad habits, poor attitudes, change resistance, an unwillingness to adapt to new methods etc. Much easier to sort out a poor attitude early on in a career if the training oversight is thorough enough to identify those weaknesses. Lateral thinking and those other personal traits in a way are natural aspects of personality irrelevant to how much prior experience you have.

While there’s hundreds of highly experienced pilots driving buses, there will be very little need to put low time pilots in the right seat in Australia

I think it's more geared towards recruitment once the industry goes back toward normal. But even then those who've trained at one of the various airline linked academies will be first in line for recruitment. After they've been processed only then will pilots out in the industry be considered.

[morno]

An experienced pilot could also bring bad habits, poor attitudes, change resistance, an unwillingness to adapt to new methods etc. Much easier to sort out a poor attitude early on in a career if the training oversight is thorough enough to identify those weaknesses. Lateral thinking and those other personal traits in a way are natural aspects of personality irrelevant to how much prior experience you have.

Ahh yes, because an airline pilot never develops bad habits, unwillingness to adapt to new methods etc. :rolleyes:

What’s to say an experienced pilot can’t adapt? And then have the added bonus of experience to be able to critically asses a situation.

It’s an age old argument, but I’ve flown with experienced pilots and cadet pilots in the right seat, and as an overall package, I’ll in most circumstances take the experienced pilot on a dark stormy night.

[Checkboard]

I'm happier with cadets in the RHS on a dark and stormy night because they keep quiet and let me get on with it. :)

[redsnail]

Yes dear. I remember that tale you told me when you saw an innocuous looking cloud. FO suggested a heading change. You said "nah, she'll be right. I know clouds". Cue quite a thumping from the innocuous cloud.
"so... tell me again about those thousands of hours you have?" :D

[Checkboard]

That's called "experience". :)

[Pastor of Muppets]

Wanna buy a watch?........

[lucille]

A320LGW:....“I actually had 160TT when I flew my first passengers in a turboprop.”

Impressive, was it single pilot? Plus had to be IFR if it was in the UK. I didn’t know it was possible get a CPL and IR with only 160 hours.

In Oz, you’d consider yourself very, very lucky to be doing the same VFR in a C206 in the bush.

[dr dre]

Impressive, was it single pilot? Plus had to be IFR if it was in the UK. I didn’t know it was possible get a CPL and IR with only 160 hours.

According to UK Regs (https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Pilot-licences/Aeroplanes/Commercial-pilot-licence-for-aeroplanes-with-an-instrument-rating/) a CPL + IR is a total of 180hrs of which 40 can be on the ground so 140hrs TT in the air. Or an MPL which can be even less time in the air. There’s a big world outside of Australia.

In Oz, you’d consider yourself very, very lucky to be doing the same VFR in a C206 in the bush.

In a lot of Oz no, the majority of airlines in Australia have put plenty of CPL and IR grads into the right hand seat of aircraft ranging from 320s to Q400s to Metros and everything in-between with about 200hrs TT. This has been going on for decades.

[lucille]

Dr. Dre. & 320LGW....

I live and learn.

So let me get this right, there’s a whole generation of western airline pilots who have never had to fly alone? Incomprehensible to an old fossil like me. That’s progress, I guess.

What worries me is that there is a whole generation of pilots with thousands of mistake free hours. How can you make a mistake to learn from? This is most certainly a good thing in a highly regulated, trained and documented airline environment if you stick to the SOPs.

With the instability in careers of late how do they cope when thrown into a G550 or similar and told to go La Paz for 3 days? Or find themselves flying into strips in Irian Jaya? I ask because this is stuff I could and have drawn from as result of of a mistake riddled career.

Not proud of making mistakes but they have been good learning experiences to extrapolate from.