PDA

View Full Version : Turkey to Replace F-35B with UCAV


ORAC
13th Mar 2021, 06:59
https://www.defensenews.com/global/2021/03/11/turkey-plans-to-deploy-attack-drones-from-its-amphibious-assault-ship/

Turkey plans to deploy attack drones from its amphibious assault ship

MERSIN, Turkey — The Turkish government hopes to transform its landing helicopter dock Anadolu into a carrier ship for attack drones, and has already begun tests to see if the dock ship is strong enough for the mission.

When the United States removed Turkey from the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter project (https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/07/17/turkey-officially-kicked-out-of-f-35-program/) after it purchased the s S-400 air defense system from Russia, the Turkish Navy lost the capability to launch a fixed-wing aircraft from Anadolu.

“To give UAVs takeoff-and-land[ing] ability on aircraft carriers, their structure must be strong because they are subjected to very high G-shocks. We aim to develop a new [unmanned combat aerial vehicle] UCAV that will successfully land and take off on LHD Anadolu in one year,” the CEO of drone-maker Baykar, Haluk Bayraktar, said during an recent interview.

Ismail Demir, the government’s president of defense industries, said companies have been working on the Baykar-made Bayraktar TB2 and other unmanned fixed-wing projects to turn Anadolu into a drone carrier.

With that setup, at least 10 armed drones could be simultaneously used in operations and integrated into a command-and-control center on the ship. After completing the project, between 30 and 50 folding-winged Bayraktar TB3 drones will be able to land and take off using the deck of Anadolu, he said.

Officials are reluctant to offer specifics about the projects, yet it’s widely expected that a new model of the Bayraktar TB3, derived from the combat-proven TB2, is under development. The new drone will be larger and feature a higher payload capacity.

The Turkish Navy fitted the Anadolu ship with a fully equipped flight deck (with a ski jump ramp in front), suitable for F-35B short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing aircraft. The ship’s deck was designed and built with these type of aircraft in mind; but it doesn’t have the structure, provision and equipment for the conventional landing of fixed-wing aircraft. Only VTOL and STOVL air assets can operate on Anadolu.

As a result, the Turkish military’s attack drones cannot land and take off from Anadolu, and that’s why officials want to make modifications. But doing so could cause a delay in the delivery of the ship.

A drone carrier would also be a new operational concept. Since the drones do not have air-to-air combat capability yet, their primary purpose seems to be intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance as well as small-scale strike operations (such as engaging coastal targets and naval assets with low air-defense capabilities).

The drones could also be used as sonobuoy carrying platforms for anti-submarine warfare operations.

T28B
13th Mar 2021, 20:16
/notasamodadmin
That looks like some forward thinking by the Turkish MoD.

Asturias56
14th Mar 2021, 08:21
When you look at the footage released of their operations in Armenia/Azerbaijan it 's pretty impressive stuff

If I was in any Army I'd be seriously questioning how you maintain security over your own forces against such a threat

etudiant
14th Mar 2021, 13:20
When you look at the footage released of their operations in Armenia/Azerbaijan it 's pretty impressive stuff

If I was in any Army I'd be seriously questioning how you maintain security over your own forces against such a threat

Hush, you don't want to disturb the slumber of our current military planners. By the evidence, they have successfully ignored that event.

Video Mixdown
14th Mar 2021, 13:41
Hush, you don't want to disturb the slumber of our current military planners. By the evidence, they have successfully ignored that event.
UAVs don't have magic powers as far as I know - they're a target for air defence systems like any other aircraft. They've been shot down before and will be again.

ORAC
14th Mar 2021, 14:03
UAVs don't have magic powers as far as I know - they're a target for air defence systems like any other aircraft. They've been shot down before and will be again. Assuming you've got adequate air defence.....

https://news.yahoo.com/british-tanks-no-match-russians-124411826.html

...."Were the British Army to have to fight a peer adversary - a euphemism for Russia - in eastern Europe in the next few years, whilst our soldiers would undoubtedly remain amongst the finest in the world, they would, disgracefully, be forced to go into battle in a combination of obsolescent or even obsolete armoured vehicles, most of them at least 30 years old or more, with poor mechanical reliability, very heavily outgunned by more modern missile and artillery systems and chronically lacking in adequate air defence.".......

Asturias56
14th Mar 2021, 15:47
"UAVs don't have magic powers as far as I know - they're a target for air defence systems like any other aircraft"

and they're very very expensive - using a $1 mm missile to shoot down a $ 500 drone isn't a good way to stay in business - and the UK has only very limited ground based anti-aircraft capability anyway

etudiant
14th Mar 2021, 16:30
UAVs don't have magic powers as far as I know - they're a target for air defence systems like any other aircraft. They've been shot down before and will be again.

As Asturias56 has pointed out, nobody has demonstrated a cost effective drone killing capability, despite the clear need. That indicates it is a significant problem, still being ignored in the force planning by all appearances.
Filtering out a set of small, agile and cheap airframes really requires an effective drone hunter of some sort, which no one has been able to produce. Laser based air defenses are in development, but still a good ways off from practical service.
So there is no need for magic powers, just a recognition that this is an unsolved issue which needs fixing asap.

Headstone
14th Mar 2021, 16:50
"using a $1 mm missile to shoot down a $ 500 drone isn't a good way to stay in business"

We've been doing that for years using very expensive missiles fired from expensive and capable assets to take out basic Toyota Technical Trucks and the like. I agree it seems a very expensive answer to a cheap problem but imagine the damage the drone could be responsible for.

Asturias56
15th Mar 2021, 08:46
For years I've questioned why the UK has such poor aground based anti air capability - a few Rapiers to be replaced by Martlet with very limited range

I'd have thought an old ZSU23-4 would be useful against small drones

etudiant
15th Mar 2021, 16:12
"using a $1 mm missile to shoot down a $ 500 drone isn't a good way to stay in business"

We've been doing that for years using very expensive missiles fired from expensive and capable assets to take out basic Toyota Technical Trucks and the like. I agree it seems a very expensive answer to a cheap problem but imagine the damage the drone could be responsible for.

Indeed we've been doing it for years indeed, the effort unblemished by success.
In a more rational world, we would consider changing our approach, But we've educated our military to believe that ongoing failure is perfectly normal.

dead_pan
16th Mar 2021, 08:36
When you look at the footage released of their operations in Armenia/Azerbaijan it 's pretty impressive stuff


Indeed it was - it seems to have got to the point they ran out of targets and resorted to targeting small groups of troops in foxholes. By contrast Armenia's efforts were rather lame, fielding converted AN2s to give the Azerbaijan AD gunners some target practice.

Turkey are certainly setting the pace for drone development and application. I'm sure many western planners are watching with interest.

etudiant
16th Mar 2021, 10:51
For years I've questioned why the UK has such poor aground based anti air capability - a few Rapiers to be replaced by Martlet with very limited range

I'd have thought an old ZSU23-4 would be useful against small drones

Drones are a lot smaller target, plus they normally stand well off from the target, so absent a proximity fuse, the ZSU would struggle.
Perhaps a bit bigger system, such as the Korean War vintage Skysweeper with twin 40mm tubes might work with appropriate ammunition.

GlobalNav
16th Mar 2021, 15:18
No personal knowledge of these, but it seems like lasers could become effective against drones. Drones that depend on visual sensors for targeting might at least be dazzled by lasers.

Asturias56
17th Mar 2021, 08:18
This weeks Economist noted that drones are cheaper than manned aircraft but they don't necessarily lower your costs

The US is finding that ground level and intelligence "customers" want 24/7 coverage everywhere. You can't do it with manned aircraft - there aren't enough and the costs would be astronomical - but drones are a lot easier.

Total costs are going up with the amount of coverage, and the vast increase in data collected and which needs to be interpreted

dctyke
17th Mar 2021, 08:52
I guess the next logical thing will be drone killer drones.

Video Mixdown
17th Mar 2021, 11:58
Just another phase of the arms race that has been going on since man first picked up a stick, and his foe picked up a bigger one. I well remember leafing through Jane's and on one page seeing and advert for the ultimate attack helicopter, and on the next page one for the ultimate anti-helicopter weapon. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Asturias56
17th Mar 2021, 15:09
AS in torpedo, torpedo-boat, torpedo-boat-destroyer............................

ORAC
20th Dec 2022, 04:14
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2022/12/19/turkeys-future-unmanned-fighter-jet-conducts-first-flight/

Turkey’s future unmanned fighter jet conducts first flight

MERSIN, Turkey — Turkish drone manufacturer Baykar Tech on Dec. 14 conducted the first flight test of its next-generation unmanned fighter jet, known as the Bayraktar Kizilelma. The drone is expected to be the…. backbone of the Turkish Navy’s future flagship, LHD Anadolu.

Selcuk Bayraktar, the technology chief at Baykar, announced the first flight with a video on Twitter. The test took place at Corlu Airport, approximately 80-85 kilometers (50 miles) west of Istanbul. The drone flew for 18 minutes and landed at the same airport.

“Today marks the maiden flight of Bayraktar #KIZILELMA, our unmanned fighter jet,” Bayraktar, the technology executive, said in the presentation video he released. “Our country has stepped into the domain of unmanned fighter aircraft, which is ushering the future of air warfare.”

The first flight was initially planned for 2023.

Baykar unveiled the unmanned fighter jet project (initially called MIUS) in summer 2021, and the Kizilelma was spotted on the assembly line in March 2022. In September 2022, the company conducted the first engine integration test for the unmanned jet. As part of its ground tests, Kizilelma conducted a “taxi test” at slow speed and a roll test at takeoff.

On Dec. 3, the future unmanned combat aircraft conducted a jump test in which it did not actually fly, but the aircraft’s landing gear lifted off the runway for a few seconds. The jet moved from prototype to maiden flight within ten months.

Kizilelma is a private project Baykar has been working on with its resources for over a decade. According to the company, it will have a maximum takeoff weight of 6 tons, including 1.5 tons of ordnance, and will fly at a height of 35,000-40,000 feet. The initial prototype will fly at speeds ranging from 0.6 to 0.9 mph.

Kizilelma will be able to stay in the air for up to 4 to 5 hours and will be controlled by satellite via the SATCOM antenna, Baykar said. It’s powered by AI-322F turbofan engines from Ukraine’s Ivchenko-Progress company.

The jet will be outfitted with an AESA radar built by Aselsan and will be capable of launching indigenous Bozdogan and Gokdogan air-to-air missiles. For surface warfare, the future unmanned plane will be armed with SOM-J cruise missiles with a range of more than 250 km and Roketsan-made MAM family guided bombs for small attack missions.

According to the company, Kizilelma will be able to take off and land on aircraft carriers with short runways and conduct missions with internally carried munitions.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/image_063b4df7f96682ea87db9e6930e80f096db2f2ee.jpeg

artee
20th Dec 2022, 05:25
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2022/12/19/turkeys-future-unmanned-fighter-jet-conducts-first-flight/

Turkey’s future unmanned fighter jet conducts first flight
.../
Kizilelma is a private project Baykar has been working on with its resources for over a decade. According to the company, it will have a maximum takeoff weight of 6 tons, including 1.5 tons of ordnance, and will fly at a height of 35,000-40,000 feet. The initial prototype will fly at speeds ranging from 0.6 to 0.9 mph...


Is that a typo, or will the prorotype really fly at speeds ranging from 0.6 to 0.9 mph?

rattman
20th Dec 2022, 06:14
Is that a typo, or will the prorotype really fly at speeds ranging from 0.6 to 0.9 mph?

Typo they obviously mean Mach so 0.6 - 0.9 mach

Asturias56
20th Dec 2022, 07:52
"he initial prototype will fly at speeds ranging from 0.6 to 0.9 mph..." sort of creps up on you

they clearly watch Dr Who........

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x168/weeping_angel_dbc2f50c0faef5ea90e949f48d759474df46c40b.jpg

ORAC
10th Apr 2023, 09:52
https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1645135806317621248?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


The Turkish Naval Forces are preparing to launch their First Aircraft Carrier tomorrow; the TCG Anadolu is an Amphibious Assault Ship that will be operated as a Drone Command and Control Center featuring the Bayraktar TB-3 Combat UAV as well as the Kızılelma Unmanned-Combat Jet.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1066/image_7202e4629e91b7e431e0a26843ec0b652a2bfa63.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1066/image_2a0e1d9bb37edfb92cec0e176d3cc59bc1eae669.jpeg
​​​​​​​

ORAC
10th Apr 2023, 09:54
The Ship will reportedly be the Flagship of the Turkish Navy as well as the beginning of the Massive Drone Fleet that the Turkish Naval Forces are planning to Deploy by 2025.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/image_b7c77200e81282ad6dc98bac928452f680e33452.jpeg

Ninthace
10th Apr 2023, 11:49
The Turkish Naval Forces are preparing to launch their First Aircraft Carrier tomorrow; the TCG Anadolu is an Amphibious Assault Ship that will be operated as a Drone Command and Control Center featuring the Bayraktar TB-3 Combat UAV as well as the Kızılelma Unmanned-Combat Jet.


Hmmm! Pointy! It looks the business at least. I wonder what the exchange rate is for one of those against an F-35?

Finningley Boy
11th Apr 2023, 03:29
"UAVs don't have magic powers as far as I know - they're a target for air defence systems like any other aircraft"

and they're very very expensive - using a $1 mm missile to shoot down a $ 500 drone isn't a good way to stay in business - and the UK has only very limited ground based anti-aircraft capability anyway
$500 for a Drone in place of the F-35B? Why has no one else thought of that?!?!?!?

FB

steamchicken
11th Apr 2023, 15:38
those really look like they cost $500 a pop, definitely realistic costings. Here's a DJI Matrice 300RTK by comparison:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjDv7izlKL-AhXTMMAKHbXnAQAQFnoECBMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fm.dji.com%2Fuk%2Fproduct%2Fmatrice-300-rtk-and-dji-care-plus&usg=AOvVaw0124uZLpA-X6Mipscod-4Y

That's £11k and it's much less than what you're looking at there

SLXOwft
11th Apr 2023, 17:27
I am idling wondering how much recycled Invicible class is involved pysically and design (lesson) wise in the Anadolu?:}

ORAC
26th Apr 2023, 05:04
https://twitter.com/Doranimated/status/1650817501767380992?s=20


The Turkish heavy-weight attack UAV (Bayraktar Akinci) and unmanned fighter (Bayraktar Kizilelma) carried out a joint flight. Selcuk Bayraktar shared the footage.

rattman
26th Apr 2023, 06:35
I am idling wondering how much recycled Invicible class is involved pysically and design (lesson) wise in the Anadolu?:}

Probably close to zero by the turks, Anadolu is a Juan Carlos, as is HMAS Adelaide and Canberra

The Spanish probably took a long look at invincible for the Juan Carlos was built to fly harriers as well

ORAC
30th Apr 2023, 22:18
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2023/04/28/turkeys-baykar-unveils-cruise-missile-for-drones/

Turkey’s Baykar unveils cruise missile for drones

ANKARA, Turkey —Baykar has revealed a new cruise missile for use on the Turkish company’s TB2, TB3 and Akinci combat drones.

The miniature weapon, known as the Bayraktar Kemankes, was on display April 27 at the Teknofest exhibition in Istanbul.

It is powered by a jet engine and has a range of 200 kilometers (124 miles). The company said it features an auto-pilot system supported by artificial intelligence technolgoy.

The missile can fly at a speed of Mach 0.7 and carry a 30-kilogram (66-pound) payload.…

Baykar did not disclose a per unit price for the Kemankes. But a company engineer, speaking on the condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to talk to the press, told Defense News his team has tried to minimize the cost to “less than $20,000 per unit.”