Epsom NDB - did it move?

[Ockham85]

I've joined this site just to ask this one question!
In about 1972 I listened to a conversation between two British radio amateurs discussing the Epsom NDB (EPM). Living in the area I already knew that EPM is actually a few miles away in Stoke D'Abernon. One of the guys was saying that the beacon had originally been in Epsom itself but had been relocated. I can't find anything on the web to support this. Can anyone confirm please and if it was relocated, when, and whereabouts in Epsom was it originally located? I have read that aircraft once circled over Epsom Downs to hold. Is this perhaps the answer?

[Discorde]

The location of the Epsom NDB 'EPM' (freq 316 kHz) is the same today as it was in 1969 (chart shown below), approx 5 statute miles WSW of the centre of Epsom town, but I don't know its history prior to that. EPM is the holding pattern for aircraft to proceed to after missed approaches from LHR runway 09R/27L.

ILS chart R27L (https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2019-03-28-AIRAC/graphics/101102.pdf)

[ShyTorque]

I think one edition of the CAA charts might have "moved" it by mistake, along with the Princes Risborough mast, which suddenly appeared near Banstead!

[Flap40]

My 1991 Pooley's has it in a slightly different position at 5119.13N 00022.22W. This might be due to a change in grid from OSGB36 to WGS84.

[DaveReidUK]

The location of the Epsom NDB 'EPM' (freq 316 kHz) is the same today as it was in 1969 (chart shown below), approx 5 statute miles WSW of the centre of Epsom town, but I don't know its history prior to that. EPM is the holding pattern for aircraft to proceed to after missed approaches from LHR runway 09R/27L.

EPM is also a waypoint on the westerly Detling SIDs (https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2021-02-25-AIRAC/graphics/123695.pdf).

The NDB is at the far end of Blue Bell Lane, just past the Shetland Pony Club. :O

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/675x525/epsom_ndb_cb29d4be45bc534af14f20330b8a86fbbb919010.jpg

[rog747]

Was the Iberia Caravelle crash near Fernhurst on Blackdown Hill in Nov 1967 using that NDB for it's let down and APP from Malaga to LHR?

Sadly killed in the accident were British film and TV actress June Thorburn, who was five months pregnant. Other notables who died were industrialist and Coventry City Football Club vice-president John Clarkson, and Donald "Doc" Campbell of the Campbell Aircraft Company.

Just got this off the report - Iberia flight IB062 left Málaga, Spain, at 19:30 UTC on a flight to London-Heathrow Airport, United Kingdom. The local arrival weather at the time was slightly misty with intermittent drizzle but there was reasonable visibility.
The aircraft was cleared to descend to FL210 after passing latitude 50 °N and was given a routeing via Ibsley and Dunsfold. After passing conflicting traffic, the aircraft was recleared to FL110 and directed to turn right on to 060° for Dunsfold.
Passing abeam Fawley the aircraft was further cleared to FL60 and, in acknowledging this instruction, the crew reported leaving FL145. Just under 4 minutes later the aircraft was cleared to proceed direct to Epsom on its own navigation.
The flight crew acknowledged this instruction. All the while the aircraft had been in a continuous descent, until it impacted trees on the southern slope of Blackdown Hill, approximately 48 km south-southwest of Heathrow Airport.

[DaveReidUK]

Clearly popular for target practice. :O

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/512x384/epsom_ndb_2cd1623fbb23859d21e5bdb0cf881418515f9397.jpg

UK Navaids Gallery - Epsom EPM NDB (trevord.com) (http://www.trevord.com/navaids/epm.htm)

[eckhard]

Somebody with an air-rifle seems to have a dislike for the EPM NDB!?

[chevvron]

My 1991 Pooley's has it in a slightly different position at 5119.13N 00022.22W. This might be due to a change in grid from OSGB36 to WGS84.
I vaguely recall it was moved to its present position sometime after 1980 having neen notified as 'withdrawn' for a short time. At one time the coding was 'EPS' not EPM' and I suspect (stand to be corrected) may have been changed when it moved.
The co-ordinates quoted above seem to be OSGB 36 notation and not WGS 84 but I'm sure that change didn't happen until late '90s.

[DaveReidUK]

I vaguely recall it was moved to its present position sometime after 1980 having been notified as 'withdrawn' for a short time. At one time the coding was 'EPS' not EPM' and I suspect (stand to be corrected) may have been changed when it moved.
The co-ordinates quoted above seem to be OSGB 36 notation and not WGS 84 but I'm sure that change didn't happen until late '90s.

Those Pooley's coordinates point to the middle of the field next to the pony club, about 150 yards from the actual position of the antenna.

That amount of offset is the right order of magnitude for the different between the WGS84 and OSGB36 datums, as I recall from writing a routine about 20 years ago to convert between the two.

As to whether the NDB has been moved from a previous position, there may be some truth in that - despite the name, its current location is actually closer to Leatherhead than Epsom, but it may not have been in the past. More research required !

[chevvron]

The present NDB is situated about half a mile north east of Chelsea FC training grounds which during WW2, were evaluated (but as far as I know not used) for use as an ELG or 'Emergency Landing Ground'.

[Flap40]

The mast marked on the OS map above also appears on the 1960 edition but I suspect that, in both cases, this is the much larger telecoms mast that sits next to the NDB.

[India Four Two]

Flap40,

Thanks for that. I was looking at GE and thinking “That’s a really big NDB mast!”

[treadigraph]

I had no idea what an NDB looked like (I'm familiar with the VORs at Biggin, Seaford and - slightly bizarrely - Lands End...) so assumed the mast visible on Google was it. Bit of Googling shows me an NDB mast is slightly less substantial.

[Jhieminga]

I vaguely recall it was moved to its present position sometime after 1980 having neen notified as 'withdrawn' for a short time. At one time the coding was 'EPS' not EPM' and I suspect (stand to be corrected) may have been changed when it moved.
The co-ordinates quoted above seem to be OSGB 36 notation and not WGS 84 but I'm sure that change didn't happen until late '90s.
It was 'EPM' on this 1968 approach plate: https://www.vc10.net/History/Images/LHR_NDB28L_epsom.jpg

[Flap40]

http://www.trevord.com/navaids/naimages/epm1.jpg
The NDB is the smaller mast.

[Discorde]

It was 'EPM' on this 1968 approach plate: https://www.vc10.net/History/Images/LHR_NDB28L_epsom.jpg

The Epsom nav facility also included one of the four 4-leg MF radio ranges serving the London area, the others being Watford, Dunsfold and Chatham (chart below). These MF ranges were withdrawn late 50s or early 60s. Garston VOR moved to Bovingdon but for a while retained its freq: 112.3 MHz.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/watford_range_46e46bbea42f9ae7a94b898aa880277ae476ff95.jpg

[Flap40]

Some digging...

I've used this chart from 1960ish at https://atchistory.wordpress.com/2020/12/29/egll-heathrow-atc-part-2/ and also taken the variation of 7w as given on the Jepp chart.

https://atchistory.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/egll-departure.jpg

Plotting a three way fix from Brookmans park, Woodley and Rochester (and assuming none of those moved before 1991) gives a fairly wide spread but the general consensus seems to be somewhere about 3nm ENE of the current site.

Google earth clip below with the three plots in yellow and the current position in green.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x612/screenshot_2021_03_11_at_12_12_23_0aa1cb409784d84583ad5bb9fc c08c943b6a88fb.png

[Flap40]

Just found this...

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/1968-02-21/debates/5f469466-c0d4-4a0f-a4d8-4c56c18bc385/AirwaysRadioBeacons

[Discorde]

@ Flap40: variation 7° would date the chart to late 60s or early 70s. From the UK Air Pilot COM section, page date 21/11/69. Note that the format for longitude omits the leading zero:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1949x192/epm_ukap_v2_89aca4066632fd5b390786104746550d3ec0f93c.jpg

[Flap40]

I've just spotted Epsom hiding at the bottom of this...

https://atchistory.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/egll-app-rw28rl.jpg

Taking the LAT/LONG off that as 51.20N 000.17W puts it just east of my previous plots (pink pin) so I think we can safely say it has moved.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x667/screenshot_2021_03_11_at_12_54_05_62db952c98090d7cec0424dc7d 33cab3bbdec5d9.png

As to when it moved, I think we can assume that it was in its original position when Lord Trefgarne asked his question in Feb 1968 and the co-ordinates provided by Discorde from Nov 1969 has it in the current position (allowing for datum change) so sometime in that window.

[Discorde]

Good detective work! If the Jepp chart is correct then we can say that EPM moved a mile or two westward sometime between March '66 and November '69.

[DaveReidUK]

Taking the LAT/LONG off that as 51.20N 000.17W puts it just east of my previous plots (pink pin) so I think we can safely say it has moved.

I've just found an old AIP that shows Epsom at N 51° 21' W 000° 17', so a little further north than your pink pin.

Bearing in mind those coordinates are to the nearest minute, the potential error is up to +/- 3000 feet N-S and 1900 feet E-W, and then you need to offset the bounding box by around 400 feet to account for the OSGB36 to WGS84 offset.

But it's definitely in a different place from its current location. :O

[India Four Two]

Since there has been mention of radio ranges, I thought I would look for a picture of the antenna layout. I could only find one picture - an anonymous US one:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x346/9cd31d3c_750e_4eda_b30e_3bd75d651a43_c8ef1ada4662152fc41e2f3 a77c63fe38b01b92f.jpeg

There were still some operational ones in Canada in the early 70s.

[treadigraph]

I've just found an old AIP that shows Epsom at N 51° 21' W 000° 17',

Dave can you confirm those co-ords please, I was just using Bing's Ordinance Survey map to pinpoint where it would have been sited and that places it in South Earlswood, just west of Redhill Aerodrome and about 10 miles SSE: 51.209683, -0.170325 (https://www.bing.com/maps/#)... :confused:

[DaveReidUK]

Dave can you confirm those co-ords please, I was just using Bing's Ordinance Survey map to pinpoint where it would have been sited and that places it in South Earlswood, just west of Redhill Aerodrome and about 10 miles SSE: 51.209683, -0.170325 (https://www.bing.com/maps/#)... :confused:

We're talking different languages. :O

My coordinates from the AIP are degrees and minutes, yours are degrees and decimal degrees. So N 51° 21' would equate to 51.35 degrees, for example.

As it happens, I've just been playing around with a conversion from OSGB lat/lon to OS Grid, and produced this bounding box based on the AIP coordinates:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/511x664/epm_radio_range_location_bounding_box_7b6420bb55dab3b2c12cc7 ebbe4ec43975fc2686.jpg

Height and width are 1 minute of latitude and longitude, respectively, centre of the box is the above-quoted coordinates.

As for whether there is any discernable sign of the radio range remaining today, we would be looking for 4 points spaced more-or-less equidistantly around a 600 foot diameter circle.

Here's an example of one in the USA from GE - it looks like somebody has helpfully planted trees in the holes vacated by the antennae. :O

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/477x511/radio_range_958c5af70cad0ac0ccc0727aec2f599036a659d6.jpg

The Epsom one may well be under housing, or the golf course.

[treadigraph]

Ahhhhhhhh! Bloody decimals... I couldn't see how it could be THAT far wrong... Your box is roughly where I expected it to be and I was looking at old maps yesterday to see if it was marked (current OS 1/25000 maps certainly show VORs).

Incidentally, the three housing estates in the lower half of the box are all former mental hospital sites - there were five more or less adjacent to one another so I think the beacon would most likely be on the golf course site.

[DaveReidUK]

Good detective work! If the Jepp chart is correct then we can say that EPM moved a mile or two westward sometime between March '66 and November '69.

We can be a little more precise than that - the Aerad chart linked in post #15 shows EPM in its current location, based on the Biggin radial and the distance from Heathrow's OE.

The chart is dated May 1968, so it must have moved some time before then.

[Ockham85]

Thank you all for your interest and fascinating comments and nuggets information e.g. the EPM holding pattern, difference between OSGB36 and WGS84 and radio ranges. Especial thanks to Flap40 for great geometry and DaveReid and Discorde for their research. Belatedly, seeing those pins on the map reminded me of something which I had overlooked, having become fixated on my Epsom Downs theory. I used to live on the west side of Epsom and walked frequently in the former mental hospitals cluster. I vaguely recall a small brick building in the then farmland between West Park and Long Grove Hospitals. Also, I recall, but can't find, mention on local maps of a radio station in this vicinity. After a bit of digging (thank you National Library of Scotland!) I found an OS map published in 1962 showing a small fenced building at TQ 190 620. TQ 19 62 is the whole 1km grid square within DaveReidUK's red oblong so bottom left of that!

I've twice tried to send this post with a JPG of part of the OS map only for it to be rejected for apparently including a URL. Rather than risk it again I'll post the JPG separately.

Thanks again everyone!

[India Four Two]

Ockham85,

You won't be able to post URLs or images until you have ten posts. Here's the location you were referring to:
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1020x689/screen_shot_2021_03_12_at_5_48_43_pm_1008755f7838fc88851fa59 12ccbfbf035399e6e.png

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/310x300/screen_shot_2021_03_12_at_5_48_55_pm_67f830ba3a174479b060f34 7b4c6086356207db1.png

Here's the map URL: https://maps.nls.uk/view/189258746 (Sheet TQ 16 SE, Six Inches to the Mile, 1962). The NLS site is a truly wonderful resource if you like old maps.

I estimated the 10m grid reference as TQ19036206 and converted it to WGS84 Lat/Long:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/523x252/screen_shot_2021_03_12_at_6_00_04_pm_9d378230e182d2c420080e2 6096b6458835e8d16.png
http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong-os-gridref.html

and then entered the Lat/Long into Google Earth:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1151x636/screen_shot_2021_03_12_at_6_37_13_pm_4bfb6e6c83768a53766b1b7 b326d40c297f50b6e.png


If you zoom in, you can see the outline of the foundations!
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/821x530/screen_shot_2021_03_12_at_6_18_25_pm_934be26122ab1a1725adfb7 f917bbb7c91776de6.png


PS I have just noticed that the conversion website gave me the OSGB36 Lat/Longs as well. If you assume they are WGS84 coordinates and plot them on Google Earth, you would have a point 59 m S and 110 m W of the true position.

[treadigraph]

The line of trees on the western side of that field is the route of the Thames-Down Link national path from Tolworth to Dorking, which I walked a few years ago... Had I known then...

[Discorde]

EPM is also a waypoint on the westerly Detling SIDs (https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2021-02-25-AIRAC/graphics/123695.pdf).

Tragic historic overtones​​​​​: it was during the left turn towards EPM that an unfortunate set of circumstances on 18/06/72 brought down Trident Papa India just outside Staines - the aircraft was following a Dover 1 departure.

[DaveReidUK]

Congratulations - great bit of detective work !

The rectangle on the map (strangely truncated by the grid line) presumably marked a wall or fence around the central antenna and hut. I suspect that by 1960 the radio range had been dismantled, leaving only the NDB, but if I'm not mistaken the orientation of the fence/wall matches the orientation of the original radio range beams. The Epsom beams were more-or-less at 90° to each other (though that wasn't necessarily the case for all radio ranges).

So the original four antennae would have been outside the rectangle, but in line with its vertices. Sadly, no trees planted in the holes. :O

[ShyTorque]

I had no idea what an NDB looked like (I'm familiar with the VORs at Biggin, Seaford and - slightly bizarrely - Lands End...) so assumed the mast visible on Google was it. Bit of Googling shows me an NDB mast is slightly less substantial.

Indeed, they look like not a lot more than a garden shed.

[BillieBob]

The rectangle on the map (strangely truncated by the grid line) presumably marked a wall or fence around the central antenna and hut.
The truncation is caused by the map data to the east and west of the grid line being of differing dates. Have look a little further south where similar changes are evident in the mapping of Epsom Common.

[treadigraph]

Indeed, they look like not a lot more than a garden shed.

...occupied by a Radio Ham...

[eglnyt]

The current site for EPM would be totally unsuitable for a Radio Range so it must have been on a different site at that time especially as the current building would not have been big enough to accommodate the range transmitters.

I have no knowledge of the Radio Range at Epsom, it predates me by many years, but at Dunsfold the Radio Range was converted into an NDB by retaining the original building and using the Range Mast nearest the building for the aerial. That arrangement continued until the early 80s when the remaining mast was condemned and replaced with the type of aerial now seen at EPM. The Dunsfold Range Building consisted of an equipment room next to a generator room with a firewall between the two which looks remarkably similar to the outline of the foundations in that field.

Originally at its current site EPM would have used a wire antenna strung between two fairly tall masts/poles either end of the compound. There aren't many en-route NDBs left but the building at EPM is at least brick built. Recent Google Map pictures of Westcott show something more akin to a horsebox.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Very close to the NDB was The Barwell Trading Estate where I spent many happy years employed in the family business. I also flew into the nearby farm strip in a Rallye Club and the (brave or insane) in a single Commanche. The brief for landing was 'just don't overfly the several mental homes for fear of disturbance!'. I was also told that the wartime PLUTO pipeline ran very close to both the farm and Trading Estate and I've attached an interesting reference to that. RAF Chessington (grass strip) was also very close but I was defeated in my efforts to fly in there!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1697x1067/pluto_e11f9388e40439de1e20ea5d716acb76d66f69c2.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

Originally at its current site EPM would have used a wire antenna strung between two fairly tall masts/poles either end of the compound.

It's a bit outside my comfort zone, but I'd be surprised if the Epsom radio range used crossed-loop antennae - weren't they superseded fairly early on in the history of radio ranges by Adcock monopole arrays (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adcock_antenna)?

[treadigraph]

The Rushetts Farm strip in a Comanche must have been quite interesting - from memory several Pitts Specials came to grief there when visiting for maintenance by the late Geoff Masterton. I think one was fatal...

[pax britanica]

As Discord says the ill fated Papa India would have crossed Epsom as its first waypoint out of LHR on what in those days I think was a simple Dover One departure, I think the first SIDs were in use by then. Earlier than that one could listen to LHR departure controllers issuing the whole Instrument departure for each aircraft which was usually something like cleared IMC to XXX cross Epsom above two (thousand) Biggin above four and something along the lines of climb as directed by radar . A long time ago when nice neat looking aircraft like Swissair Convair 440s used those instructions to head off to Zurich. A bit of a joke these days as an A320 series departing on an LHR westerly could probably make about 8000 ft by Epsom if it was allowed. I must admit I thought Epsom disappeared as a beacon when Ockham VOR was activated and became one of the LHR holds. The past year must have been odd for folks who live underneath the LHR holding patterns as they probably haven't been used for a year depriving the good folk of that pricey part of the outer London area of their early morning wakeups from the Atlantic inbounds wending their way around the Ockham pattern

[Discorde]

. . . the ill fated Papa India would have crossed Epsom as its first waypoint out of LHR on what in those days I think was a simple Dover One departure, I think the first SIDs were in use by then. Earlier than that one could listen to LHR departure controllers issuing the whole Instrument departure for each aircraft which was usually something like cleared IMC to XXX cross Epsom above two (thousand) Biggin above four and something along the lines of climb as directed by radar . . .

Prior to the introduction of SIDs outbound routes from LHR were as shown here. SIDs therefore must have appeared sometime after May 1969. The Dover 1 SID from 28L/R followed the route shown here (possibly omitting BIG), then DET - DVR.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1380x1168/dvr_1_sid_f458261bca9777f9bbb0a665e3eee6eb75b354ae.jpg

[treadigraph]

I noticed an Etihad 787 did a very tight left hand turn after departing 27R this morning, it passed north of Walton on Thames flying 090 and intercepted roughly the 09L/R Dover SID routing somewhere north of Croydon except at 12000' probably rather higher!

[DaveReidUK]

I noticed an Etihad 787 did a very tight left hand turn after departing 27R this morning, it passed north of Walton on Thames flying 090 and intercepted roughly the 09L/R Dover SID routing somewhere north of Croydon except at 12000' probably rather higher!

Though, looking at the track on WebTrak, he was flagged as "off-track" not because he turned too tightly, but because he didn't turn enough to stay on the NPR/SID.

[treadigraph]

What, for the 09 SID? :}

[spekesoftly]

he was flagged as "off-track"

Pilot's defence - "Somebody's moved the EPM NDB again!" ;)

[DaveReidUK]

What, for the 09 SID? :}

It was a DET2F (https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2021-02-25-AIRAC/graphics/123695.pdf) departure off 27R, so to be classed as "on-track" he needed to stay on the relevant SID/NPR to 4000', after which ATC could send him anywhere. He diverged from the NPR over Old Windsor at about 3600'.

Overflying a different SID later at 10,000' didn't get him off the hook. :O

[treadigraph]

So he should have been turning overhead Wraysbury reservoirs?

[FullWings]

I flew one of our younger 777s a few weeks ago on a Detling departure from LHR and noticed that it didn’t have NDB receivers fitted at all, so EPM came and went as a RNAV waypoint... :(

[DaveReidUK]

So he should have been turning overhead Wraysbury reservoirs?

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/508x601/det_27r_npr_a131f1096e05c209756bfe037b6c1c7e4317ada9.jpg

[treadigraph]

Thanks, yes, looking at an El Al 787 just departed, turned nicely over the Wraysbury reservoirs and direct towards EPM before overhead Weybridge getting a direct Koksijde by the looks of it - just passed to the north of Dover. Singapore 747 departing shortly...

[hoss183]

Thia '45-'65 map has a trig point, and mast on the current image. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=51.31923&lon=-0.37264&layers=219&right=BingHyb
And for IFT's position this: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=51.34541&lon=-0.29234&layers=170&right=BingSat
Theres a building marked, but no antenna. One corner is marked 'revision point' so clearly part of a survey, an important location

[DaveReidUK]

This '45-'65 map has a trig point, and mast on the current image.

Yes, the trig point, unsurprisingly, marks the top of a 200' hill with the masts just a few feet lower.

The mast marked on the map is a cellphone/DAB (http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=1441) tower, not the NDB (the latter are rarely, if ever, marked on OS maps).


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/316x331/epm_ndb_810540b2e80b3fbdc71530e0ee7d078e3992886b.jpg

[chevvron]

As Discord says the ill fated Papa India would have crossed Epsom as its first waypoint out of LHR on what in those days I think was a simple Dover One departure, I think the first SIDs were in use by then. Earlier than that one could listen to LHR departure controllers issuing the whole Instrument departure for each aircraft
SIDs were already in use for Heathrow departures in March 1969 when I joined 'D Watch at West Drayton, working initially on the 'outbound' suite where a controller, designated 'DO' would pass the appproved SID to Heathrow tower when the departure was requested by them via myself and my colleagues and we would then pass the request on to 'DO',..
Papa India occured in mid 1972 when I was working in Glasgow Tower where we did pass the entire clearance to the pilot rather than just a SID name and number.

[condor17]

Off Rwy 24 at Manchester , very quiet day so given direct Otringham and climb , with No speed restriction. Tightened the bank angle and reduced speed to 140kts [ ATP ] . They tried to 'boxxxx' me for coming off min noise route , which were designed at 210-250 kts . They had forgotten at 140 we'd have a smaller radius of turn . We went up well so less noise , saved fuel , and time as well.
If quiet at LHR , back in the day our rented in 737-300s with all derates out could easily get above FL100 at EPM or Burnham from Westerly departures .
Chevvron , remember full clearances with readback . Never read out as fast as US controllers did , thankfully . When I retired we were getting them on Acars [ data link ] , but the 744s still had NDBs !

rgds condor .

[pax britanica]

Thanks for the clarification Chevron , I remember the pre SID rather tedious readout which I imagine just got too much for the LHR traffic load. If I recall right early on in the SID era didnt get IFR clearance at startup but as they approached the runway they had to back to LHR Clearance on 121.7 for airways clearance which probably wasnt ideal given that i presume flight deck work load approaching the runway or holding point is pretty high. I also rather liked the idea of the Something airways XXis cleared to some exotic place or other and even thats gone as its all done by data link. Another little bit of the magic of flying gone.

As an aside during my years living in Bermuda I took mum in law to the airport for the only night civil op the BA 2232 to London , LHR at the time I am referring to.
Bermuda Airport (Kindley Field as it was colloquially known) was an active US Navy airstation . The US Navy controllers filed the flight plans and gave startup clearances and then handed back to the ramp controllers, civilians, for push and taxi. . Once again airways a clearance was given just prior to take off .I was listening on my little airband as a US Navy controller cleared the BA 2232 to London via , a couple of rather fishy named waypoints, then all the Atlantic crossing waypoints and finally, Lands End , Southampton Midhurst ... at which point a very 'old fashioned' BA voice cut in with a 'Thank you, I think we can find our way from there'.

i dont think LHR would have coped with having to give everyone that treatment , but for those of us 'on the outside' much of the interest in listening to Airband once one had figured out the generality of what was going on was to hear these occasional wholly human remarks , some exasperated some amusing.

[India Four Two]

While doing my IR training, I was listening to Calgary Clearance Delivery before asking for my clearance, when we heard an American Airlines flight call up for their clearance. The controller came back with "... cleared to the Dallas Fort Worth airport via .." and then listed every intersection for the 1300 nm flight! The crew had obviously been expecting to be cleared "... via XX SID, flight-planned route", because there was a pause and then "Say again." :)

[chevvron]

Off Rwy 24 at Manchester , very quiet day so given direct Otringham and climb , with No speed restriction. Tightened the bank angle and reduced speed to 140kts [ ATP ] . They tried to 'boxxxx' me for coming off min noise route , which were designed at 210-250 kts . They had forgotten at 140 we'd have a smaller radius of turn . We went up well so less noise , saved fuel , and time as well.
If quiet at LHR , back in the day our rented in 737-300s with all derates out could easily get above FL100 at EPM or Burnham from Westerly departures .
Chevvron , remember full clearances with readback . Never read out as fast as US controllers did , thankfully . When I retired we were getting them on Acars [ data link ] , but the 744s still had NDBs !

rgds condor .
It was only Heathrow departures where DO woiud pass 'standard XXX One departure climb to flight level XXX', other airfields like Luton and Gatwick had some very quaint IFR departures eg westerley Luton departures via WOR were 'Beacon Hill, Burnham, Chersey and Dunsfold at 4,000ft, climb when instructed by London radar to flight level XXX'; for an easterley departure it was 'Brookmans Park, Kilburn, Epsom and Dunsfold at 4,000'etc.

[Mooncrest]

The Leeds Bradford NDB - 'LBA' - was once co-located with the outer marker on the RW 32 ILS approach. When the outer marker was decommissioned, the NDB was moved on to the airfield itself. This move eradicated the malicious damage problem at the same time. All this happened some time in the 1990s, IIRC.