Heathrow before the Europa terminal and Queens building

[Leovinus]

I've been looking to get a sense of how Heathrow worked before the permanent structures (Europa and Queens buildings) were completed post-war. I've seen discussions on here about it's past, with pictures of the post war tents for example, and it's been very interesting. But I've gained little grasp on how it was organised and how it was experienced by passengers. Is there a good source I could turn to? Perhaps you have any experiences of visiting Heathrow before the proper terminals were built?

Thank you in advance

[DaveReidUK]

There are several good books on the history of Heathrow. For example:

"Heathrow - From Tents to Terminal 5" by Ian Anderson
"Heathrow - 2000 Years of History" by Philip Sherwood

Wikipedia also has a good history of the airport: History of Heathrow Airport - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Heathrow_Airport)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1443x1014/northside_aa4e2408800d185d114434cafedab398045041dc.jpg

[Leovinus]

There are several good books on the history of Heathrow.

Thank you kindly for that, I'll look into the books. And thank you for the picture as well, it's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for (among descriptions). Do you know when it's taken and what's showing? Passenger terminals?

For other curious about Heathrow I have found some old photos, but I'm not yet allowed to post links sadly.

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Dave I assume that image is of Heathrow North which I think was at one time essentially The International Terminal. I don't know when it was closed but I remember quite by chance bumping into a pal from school there - that would have been roundabout 1960ish......?

[DaveReidUK]

Dave I assume that image is of Heathrow North which I think was at one time essentially The International Terminal. I don't know when it was closed but I remember quite by chance bumping into a pal from school there - that would have been roundabout 1960ish......?

Yes, I believe it was in use until the Oceanic Building (later T3) opened in 1961.

[chevvron]

Northside was still in use as the 'Royal' apron until much later; I remember Air Force One parking and departing from there in 1970 when I was an assistant at the old LATCC Radar Unit.

[chevvron]

I've been looking to get a sense of how Heathrow worked before the permanent structures (Europa and Queens buildings) were completed post-war. I've seen discussions on here about it's past, with pictures of the post war tents for example, and it's been very interesting. But I've gained little grasp on how it was organised and how it was experienced by passengers. Is there a good source I could turn to? Perhaps you have any experiences of visiting Heathrow before the proper terminals were built?

Thank you in advance
In the early '50s we couldn't afford a car so day trips during the summer holidays by train or bus was the 'norm'.
We lived in Chesham, Bucks and at least once a year, our parents would take us to 'London Airport' by Greenline to Uxbridge then transferring to a red bus which stopped on the Bath Road near the terminal building.
I remember walking through the tents to access the public viewing area; initially (before the tunnel was built) all spectators were 'marshalled'; across the taxiway which was of course active at the time to an area between the central area still under construction and 28R (which was presumably not in use at that time due to the construction of the tunnel by the 'cut and cover' method involving the digging of a huge trench), where there were refreshment stands and joyrides in Dragon Rapides available. On one occasion, two RAF Meteors landed and they came and parked next to the joyriding aircraft; one single seat (presumably F8) and the other two seat (T7?).
This must have been about 1952 to about 1954, (I was born in 1948 so I was still very young) then when the tunnel opened, we would walk to the spectator area through this.
In 1956, London Transport ran Greenlines into the central area where the Queens Building and what was to become T2 were then open.

[Leovinus]

I've seen one picture of the interior, check-in desks. Would the North building have contained waiting areas and customs as well, or was that relegated to adjoining prefabs/Nissen huts/tents?

It baffles me slightly that Heathrow took so long to see any major improvements considering it was the first welcome to Britain for new travellers. But it's also charming in a way. Certainly would have given foreigners, like myself, a taste of the "make-do-and-mend" mentality that Britain is so famous for.

[Leovinus]

Thank you kindly for that information. I thought I had replied, but seems it got lost in the ether. Wonderful picture, would you happen to know when it was taken and what it's depicting? I see OUAQUKGF Ops mention Heathrow North which I'm sad to say I can't pinpoint in the clutter of small buildings.

I'll see if I can find those books as well, would you suggest any one over the other for someone on the hunt for a thorough description of the happening, amenities, and layout of the pre-1955 era?

[DaveReidUK]

Thank you kindly for that information. I thought I had replied, but seems it got lost in the ether. Wonderful picture, would you happen to know when it was taken and what it's depicting? I see OUAQUKGF Ops mention Heathrow North which I'm sad to say I can't pinpoint in the clutter of small buildings.

A better view of the northside terminal:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1338x881/northside_terminal_c948e0e1072e2896ef0ceb22fb4a1b80619d96b3. jpg

[Jhieminga]

Charles Woodley also did a book on the early days of Heathrow Airport (https://amzn.to/2Os9PJS), I cannot comment on how it compares to the other titles mentioned though. A search on that South American river site shows various Heathrow related titles, such as this one (https://amzn.to/3qmbvSs).

[ExSp33db1rd]

1958/9 - I recall walking from the the BOAC Crew Reporting and Flight Operations office, known as Building 221, across the apron and on to the Stratocruisers, alongside Britannias, Connies, Argonauts and DC-7C's parked at the Northside terminal, also awaiting our passengers. This "apron" was parallel to the Slough (name?) Rd. near the subsequent entrance to the tunnel into the new Central Area, Queens Bldg, T.2 etc. BOAC crews subsequently parked at the BOAC building at Hatton Cross on the Staines Rd, officially named Tech. Block A, which housed aircraft hangar and maintenance facilities as well as being the Corporate headquarters, but called The Kremlin by most employees, and were then bussed to the Central Area Crew Reporting, Operations Centre in T.2 from where we would eventually walk out to our aircraft, before "Elf and Safety" got into the act. No yellow jackets in those days, commonsense prevailed. BOAC also built a training Empire at Cranebank, just up the road from Hatton Cross towards Hounslow.

Fond memories of it all.

[wiggy]

This "apron" was parallel to the Slough (name?) Rd.

?Bath Road?

I was based at LHR '89 onwards and am trying to visualise where the picture provided by the OP fits in with my much ore recent model of the airport..

With regard to the image in the OP - Am correct in thinking the minor road with a bend in it heading away from the viewer, centre view towards the top, is the Sipson Road, and if that's the case the Terminal being talked upthread was situated somewhere near the current Renaissance Hotel (I think that's what it's called this week)?

[treadigraph]

Wiggy, yes, Sipson Road.

Here's the site around 1960.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=51.48163&lon=-0.44398&layers=193&b=1

Use the "change transparency" slider in the search box to see it today.

[wiggy]

Wiggy, yes, Sipson Road.

Here's the site around 1960.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=51.48163&lon=-0.44398&layers=193&b=1

Use the "change transparency" slider in the search box to see it today.

Excellent resource, thank you.

[DaveReidUK]

Here's another view:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/871x507/northside_view_reduced__e0ac3c3be6cfedaed9c0edd447ab255ec1aa 9cd4.jpg

The northside terminal is/was directly behind the tail of the Stratocruiser.

Before my time, needless to say, but I can vaguely remember how the Northern Perimeter Road still used to kink around the rear of the buildings in the top left of the photo in the early 70s.

[Leovinus]

1958/9 - I recall walking from the the BOAC Crew Reporting and Flight Operations office, known as Building 221, across the apron and on to the Stratocruisers, alongside Britannias, Connies, Argonauts and DC-7C's parked at the Northside terminal, also awaiting our passengers. This "apron" was parallel to the Slough (name?) Rd. near the subsequent entrance to the tunnel into the new Central Area, Queens Bldg, T.2 etc. BOAC crews subsequently parked at the BOAC building at Hatton Cross on the Staines Rd, officially named Tech. Block A, which housed aircraft hangar and maintenance facilities as well as being the Corporate headquarters, but called The Kremlin by most employees, and were then bussed to the Central Area Crew Reporting, Operations Centre in T.2 from where we would eventually walk out to our aircraft, before "Elf and Safety" got into the act. No yellow jackets in those days, commonsense prevailed. BOAC also built a training Empire at Cranebank, just up the road from Hatton Cross towards Hounslow.

Fond memories of it all.

chevvron mentioned the marshalling kids across active runways. I might have a dark sense of humor, but it did make me wonder what percentage of kids returned in one piece was viewed as a successful outing!

On a side note, I must say that I've been on this forum a while as a passive observer, and your posts ExSp33db1rd are some of the ones that have been a special pleasure to read. Have you ever thought of writing a book?

[Leovinus]

Here's another view:

The northside terminal is/was directly behind the tail of the Stratocruiser.

Before my time, needless to say, but I can vaguely remember how the Northern Perimeter Road still used to kink around the rear of the buildings in the top left of the photo in the early 70s.

I've got a special fondness for early post-war Britain over-all. And as an aviation nut these are the things that absolutely make my day. Thank you DaveReidUK. Looks like an Elizabethan down on the right of the picture too.

I've come roughly half-way through Robin Highams wonderful book "Speedbird: The Complete History of BOAC". But while it gives very detailed accounts of the management and political wrangling it doesn't, at least not so far, give more than exceptionally brief overviews of the experience of employees throughout BOAC and of the passengers that few with them. An extra human touch if you will. I do love the book however, and would recommend it to most anyone interested in the machinations behind one of the worlds most famous airlines.

[Leovinus]

Wiggy, yes, Sipson Road.

Here's the site around 1960.

Use the "change transparency" slider in the search box to see it today.

Thats absolutely wonderful, thank you!

[chevvron]

I've seen one picture of the interior, check-in desks. Would the North building have contained waiting areas and customs as well, or was that relegated to adjoining prefabs/Nissen huts/tents?

It baffles me slightly that Heathrow took so long to see any major improvements considering it was the first welcome to Britain for new travellers. But it's also charming in a way. Certainly would have given foreigners, like myself, a taste of the "make-do-and-mend" mentality that Britain is so famous for.
Bear in mind that Northolt had been used up until about 1950/51 for some flights and terminal facilities had to be built there too.

[chevvron]

Here's another view:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/871x507/northside_view_reduced__e0ac3c3be6cfedaed9c0edd447ab255ec1aa 9cd4.jpg

The northside terminal is/was directly behind the tail of the Stratocruiser.

Before my time, needless to say, but I can vaguely remember how the Northern Perimeter Road still used to kink around the rear of the buildings in the top left of the photo in the early 70s.
Note the 'original' control tower (later to become the airport police station) at centre.

[chevvron]

chevvron mentioned the marshalling kids across active runways. I might have a dark sense of humor, but it did make me wonder what percentage of kids returned in one piece was viewed as a successful outing!

It was adults too, not just kids, however I do wonder how many 'accident's' there actually were having almost been one myself.
I was walking back with my parents, my older brother and sister (both about 10 or 11 years old) were some way ahead. I saw them crossing the taxiway and ran ahead of my parents to follow them, only to be grabbed by a man in an 'airline' style uniform and pulled back out of the way of the DC4 (or it could have been a DC6; at the age of 4 my aircraft recognition abilities had not developed beyond the aircraft operating from RAF Bovingdon near where we lived) which I hadn't seen coming along the taxiway!
What would 'elf an' safety' have to say nowadays about pedestrians in such close proximity to spinning props?

[Leovinus]

It was adults too, not just kids, however I do wonder how many 'accident's' there actually were having almost been one myself.
I was walking back with my parents, my older brother and sister (both about 10 or 11 years old) were some way ahead. I saw them crossing the taxiway and ran ahead of my parents to follow them, only to be grabbed by a man in an 'airline' style uniform and pulled back out of the way of the DC4 (or it could have been a DC6; at the age of 4 my aircraft recognition abilities had not developed beyond the aircraft operating from RAF Bovingdon near where we lived) which I hadn't seen coming along the taxiway!
What would 'elf an' safety' have to say nowadays about pedestrians in such close proximity to spinning props?

It must have been great living relatively close by as a youth and interested in aircraft. Sadly I've never been close to an international airport other than when passing through. And I'm too young to have seen any of the props and early jets I find most appealing.

When you said Northolt was also in need of construction I'm not quite sure I follow. Wasn't Northolt only temporarily used for passenger services before the RAF took it back? I would have thought the focus would have stayed with London Airport (Heathrow) as prime concern over Northolt.

The only "developed" aerodrome in London, so far as I know, would have been Croydon. Which had actual arrivals and departure halls etc. So Heathrow, especially after being designated London Airport, should have seen rapid development. Though I'm sure the post-war era economy and several other more pressing concerns put it on the back burner for natural reasons.

[Leovinus]

A better view of the northside terminal:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1338x881/northside_terminal_c948e0e1072e2896ef0ceb22fb4a1b80619d96b3. jpg

What entrances would these be? International travel? Also wonderful photograph!

[pax britanica]

Gr
I grew up next door to LHR from the mid 50s, no doubt why I am on Pprune in the first place.
A few comments,
The road alongside the north side of LHR was the A4 Bath Road, a really major road back then-no M4 , the road along the eastern side was the A30 which goes all the way to Lands End . The roads joined/divided at a pub just to the North east of the airport called the Peggy Bedford, who Peggy Bedford was I have no idea. The dual carriageway onwards into London was called the Great West rd -A3. These roads are still there but are dotted with roundabouts and airport entrances and of course, are no longer trunk roads as such having been supplanted by the M4 and M3.

Northolt was I think still in BEA operation into the mid 1950s, one of my earlier memories was going to see where dad worked' at Northolt and climbing up the interior of a Dakota and Viking -ahhh tailwheels , or conventional undercarriage. This would have been 1955 because in mid 1955 I think BEA moved to LHR because we moved from Rickmansworth to Stanwell. Stanwell was almost still a very old and sleepy village (sadly it is a bit of a dump today) but the main element so f the old village are still there. I do not know how my father got from Rickmansworth to Northolt-no car, but although Stanwell literally adjoins LHR he worked in the central area and in the summer it was a push bike job until he got a car in about 1960. Stanwell was developing into something likre a northern company town' everyone except for a few elderly locals (who always called it Stannull) who worked at Heathrow. It still had a working blacksmith though and a high street with three pubs within 100 yeards.

The southern and especially S western side of the airport was virtually open countryside-security -whats that no fences, no guarded gates, cross the parallel rivers at the north end of the village and you were on the airport and occasionally people who had perhaps had a few too many in the Rising Sun Pub would get disoriented and wander too far onto the airport , no cargo centre then although the road bridge over the rivers had a security gate it was only to stop vehicles. Lots of rabbits foxes pheasants etc lived on the green 'meadows' that surrounded the few bits of concrete that came down to the SW corner

From 1955 on of course lHR grew and grew and grew, the central rea terminals T 3 or Oceanic being the last one, the extensions to the western end of both runways (known back then by their numbers as much as their orientation LHR of course had 6 originally but I can only ever remember seeing operations on five of them. The southern runway ( 10R 28L now ) was I think extended twice, firstly from block 79 to block 101 and then further west right to the western perimeter road.

Great views for my spotting days especially on a warm summers day with an easterly wind. On westerlies, things were not so good because there was no runway rotation and all landings were on the southern runway and all take offs (which seemed to comprise a pattern of -random aircraft -BEA Viscount random aircraft BEA viscount ad infinitum) were on the northern runway.

So excuse the memory dump but LHR was extremely interesting back then with all kinds of strange movements and a great variety of aircraft. It was also something of a social obstacle, the 'other side of the airport was long way away back in the 50s/60s not everyone had cars and the poor bus services meant there was nt a lot of interaction between the towns and villages, even two largely different spotting communities, the Cains Lane (now referred to as Myrtle Ave) group and the North LAP (as it was then) group.

Not always happy days but certainly happy memories and thanks for reviving them

[treadigraph]

The only "developed" aerodrome in London, so far as I know, would have been Croydon. Which had actual arrivals and departure halls etc. So Heathrow, especially after being designated London Airport, should have seen rapid development. Though I'm sure the post-war era economy and several other more pressing concerns put it on the back burner for natural reasons.

I live just a few hundred yards south of the extended centreline and half a mile from the threshold of what would have been runway 30 at Croydon. Sadly it had already been closed for 11 years when I moved to Purley and 31 years when I bought the house I'm in now. Not that flying has been totally absent from the site in the time I've been here!

[DaveReidUK]

Note the 'original' control tower (later to become the airport police station) at centre.

The tower stood roughly where the Customs House is today.

[Jhieminga]

I've come roughly half-way through Robin Highams wonderful book "Speedbird: The Complete History of BOAC". But while it gives very detailed accounts of the management and political wrangling it doesn't, at least not so far, give more than exceptionally brief overviews of the experience of employees throughout BOAC and of the passengers that few with them. An extra human touch if you will. I do love the book however, and would recommend it to most anyone interested in the machinations behind one of the worlds most famous airlines.
Higham's book is indeed a bit dense at times. Have you considered Graham Simons BOAC title (https://amzn.to/3kOhaQi)? I see that Amazon doesn't stock it right now (you can get a glimpse of the contents though), but the publisher should be able to deliver a copy: https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/The-British-Overseas-Airways-Corporation-Hardback/p/15601

[renfrew]

Yes,I found "Speedbird" a little disappointing.
It is an academic study using the minutes from board meetings.
The "Seven Skies" by John Pudney is an older book which is worth a read.

[Sygyzy]

Hi,

Not wishing to be (too) picky but wasn't the Peggy Bedford pub further along the A4 at the point which is now a Mackedees and the left hand fork in the road there takes you into Longford village and the western side if the airport.
There still is a great big pub (name escapes me) at the fork/junction of the A30/A4 but that's much further east - in fact about a mile west of what used to be known as Henleys Corner (IIRC).

Thinking of little security in those days,..My father and I went from Ashford Middx on pedal bikes in ~1954 and entered the airfield via the Beacon Road entrance just along from Stanwell village. (The big green flashing aierodrome beacon was situated there). There were Yorks parked nearby and we climbed into one. Bear in mind my father had no affiliation with the airport. Cop cars whizzed up with bells ringing, ran to the aircraft and asked what (the hell) we were doing. My father replied that it was my birthday and he was thinking of buying one of these fine aircraft as a present, ' Please close the door after you've finished then sir' was the reply.

Those were the days. S

[GeeRam]

The tower stood roughly where the Customs House is today.

The old tower ceased being the Police Station around 1969/70 when the new Police Station was built next to the tunnel ramp, diagonally opposite across the roundabout from where the customs house now is.
That 'new' Police itself has now been gone for 6 or 7 years now, which make you feel really old when you can remember a building being built and demolished within the space of only 40 years!!
My memories of the old zig-zagging peri road around the back of the old buildings from the tunnel up to the Arial Hotel junction is now very vague in the memory cells.....largely having spent a lot of time working at LHR in the early 80's and then the early 2000's and back again from 2015 to last year, so the old layouts get lost more easily in the memory, even the old central area road layout is only vague in the memory now and that's only been gone 10+ years.

[DaveReidUK]

Hi,

Not wishing to be (too) picky but wasn't the Peggy Bedford pub further along the A4 at the point which is now a Mackedees and the left hand fork in the road there takes you into Longford village and the western side if the airport.

There still is a great big pub (name escapes me) at the fork/junction of the A30/A4 but that's much further east - in fact about a mile west of what used to be known as Henleys Corner (IIRC).

That is/was the Travellers Friend - now also a McDonalds !

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

Leovinus - as to your question 'What Entrances....' The photograph depicts what these days is described as 'Airside'.

[ExSp33db1rd]

?Bath Road? Probably !

......and your posts ExSp33db1rd (https://www.pprune.org/members/214455-exsp33db1rd) are some of the ones that have been a special pleasure to read. Have you ever thought of writing a book?

Many of my previous colleagues have, I am currently composing an auto-bio for the grandchildren, and including Flying Stories, may expand it one day, but it would be a limited audience of course.

One of my ex-colleagues, ex-Manager, has recently published a book of "apparently" fictitious flying stories based on real events, e.g. he has changed names and locations to protect the innocent, not only of course to protect himself from litigation (!). He has included a couple of my tales. SKY TALK Vol 1 available now, SKY TALK Vol 2 awaiting publication PM Bergerie1 for details.

[Jhieminga]

Feels a bit like I'm peddling books here... my apologies... but I too can recommend Sky Talk vol.1, see here: https://amzn.to/38ghgv4, also available from the publisher here: Sky Talk | Sunrise Publishing (http://www.burntash.eu/sky-talk)

[treadigraph]

And as I see it's also recommended by Mike Riley then I must definitely get me a copy!

[PAXboy]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x615/lhr_lap_1950_b7621c84f38ac7b0d33600e78344f7e7a15c6560.jpg

Around 1950. I think.

[rog747]

What a lovely thread - Bring on the memory dumps please.

I was too little to recall Northside in operations.
Our first stints out to London Airport where in 1964 when Dad booked a holiday to the Costa Brava with Lunn Poly/Everyman Holidays who flew most of their package passengers on British Eagle Britannia's then from LON/LAP
(what was the 3 letter code>? I gather it was LON then)
We would have drives out to the airport on a Sunday afternoon 'to have a look' before we went on our Hols.
We used the British Eagle coach from their Knightsbridge air terminal in the end to join the flight at the Europa Building.

Re the Bath Road A4 - AFAIK it has always been the A4 (not the A3) right into Earls Court and beyond to Westminster & Holborn Circus.
Along the A4 was the Berkeley Arms Hotel in Cranford Hounslow opposite the Jolly Waggoner.
The Master Robert Hotel was further along towards Osterley.

The Three Magpies was formerly The Three Magpies Tavern. There has been a pub on this site since the 16th century and is the last pub left on the Bath Road.
Built 150 years ago, there is some interesting wood panelling. There was also the Old Magpies pub too.
All part of the Hamlet of Heathrow in the Harmondsworth Parish.

The lovely pub in Longford on the original Bath Road is the White Horse Inn.

(The avoiding Colnbrook by-pass was built early in the 1950's)

Back along the old Bath Road from the White Horse was the Peggy Bedford Hotel situated at 400 Bath Road. Previously known as The Kings Head, it closed in 1994 to make way for a McDonald's. The original Peggy Bedford, lived in a house known as The Stables in the village of Longford on the A4. It is believed that Peggy was the daughter of a landlord of the coaching inn then called the Kings Head and she ran the inn after her fathers death. In her honour the inn was renamed.


My pal Shirley who was Wafic Said's stewardess (Yes, Mrs Thatcher's pal) on his private BAC 1-11, then his 727 and she bought a lovely thatched cottage on the Island in Longford on the river there. Cute place which, if the 3rd runway build goes ahead will be all knocked down)

[Leovinus]

Higham's book is indeed a bit dense at times. Have you considered Graham Simons BOAC title (https://amzn.to/3kOhaQi)? I see that Amazon doesn't stock it right now (you can get a glimpse of the contents though), but the publisher should be able to deliver a copy: https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/The-British-Overseas-Airways-Corporation-Hardback/p/15601

I'll have a look at it, certainly. And don't worry about peddling books! I've already ordered Heathrow - The first 25 years on your suggestion. I'm also trying to get my hands on a copy of David Beatys book "Story of Transatlantic Flight", but it seems to be out of print and unavailable in Sweden where I live. I'm really trying to get a better, more intimate, picture of what flying was like during the 1940-'60s. Who were these people? Why did they fly (both passengers and crew)? What did they experience both large and small? A quote from L.P. Hartley Is very apt in that "The past is a foreign country; They do things differently there". So all suggestions on the subject are definitely welcome. I've been too focused on the technical aspects of aircraft up until now. Flying needs a proper, human, context to go along with it.

I'll also look into the BOAC books being discussed. As luck would have it I find the denseness of Highams book quite welcome, though that's because it aligns with my interests rather well. And even I'll admit parts of it I don't read as thoroughly as the rest. I'll give your and renfrew s suggestions a look.

Probably !



Many of my previous colleagues have, I am currently composing an auto-bio for the grandchildren, and including Flying Stories, may expand it one day, but it would be a limited audience of course.

One of my ex-colleagues, ex-Manager, has recently published a book of "apparently" fictitious flying stories based on real events, e.g. he has changed names and locations to protect the innocent, not only of course to protect himself from litigation (!). He has included a couple of my tales. SKY TALK Vol 1 available now, SKY TALK Vol 2 awaiting publication PM Bergerie1 for details.

I don't know about limited audience. I think there are enough who would be interested, and with e-books being both easy to publish and purchase the spread would be wide. I'll have a look see if I can find Sky Talk!

[Leovinus]

Leovinus - as to your question 'What Entrances....' The photograph depicts what these days is described as 'Airside'.

Ah, thank you.

And to all of you who contribute with your memories, this is quite something. Thank you for sharing!

I'd like to contribute if I can. I found the following website brimming with photos of old Heathrow:

http://www.ukairfieldguide.net/airfields/Heathrow

And this very nice blog detailing some of its past and development:

http://exceptthekylesandwesternisles.********.com/2015/09/heathrow-in-1950s-60s.html

[ExSp33db1rd]

Ahhh ! The Peggy Bedord, the Three Magpies, remember them well. Lived in Osterley whilst initially working out of Heathrow

[WHBM]

The absence of BEA aircraft can be noted. They built up quite a substantial operation immediate postwar from Northolt instead with DC-3s and Vickers Vikings, surprisingly the frequencies to the likes of Paris or Amsterdam by the early 1950s were not a lot different to nowadays - much smaller aircraft, of course. BEA were waiting for the completion of the Queens Building. The Airspeed Ambassador's arrival (and very soon after the Viscount) changed things, these were never operated from Northolt, although it was apparently not unknown for their flights to be in the transition years - passengers had reported to Heathrow and were suddenly told the Ambassador was u/s and the flight would now be operated by two Vikings from Northolt; all aboard this bus.

Speaking of buses, note the aircraft in the pictures are all on remote stands. The apron bus contract had been given to London Transport, who used a motley collection on airside transfers, quite separate to the elegant (for their times) new vehicles running from the central London terminals. Some of them were even pre-war. It was however a nice driving experience compared to regular bus routes, so came to the more elderly, most senior drivers, who apparently struggled negotiating the ramp, especially at night, between the aircraft.

The European operators came to Heathrow much earlier, although a few pioneers, like KLM, actually went back to Croydon at the beginning, from 1946. They were handled by a separate BEA team.

Such was the popularity of the airport as a tourist attraction that a sightseeing operation, with Dragon Rapids running 10-minute flights, started from alongside the spectators' enclosure; there have been several posts about the detail of this here in the past, so won't repeat that.

The big Northside ramp west of the tunnel later became the long term car park, not resurfaced, and certainly until the early 2000s had the original concrete surface, looking a bit careworn, with the ghosts of where various flush lights etc had been patched over.

[GeeRam]

The Master Robert Hotel was further along towards Osterley.


The Master Robert was demolished about 3 years ago and a brand new budget hotel built on the site, which was finished about 6 month before the first lockdown started!
There used to be a big aviation model shop/book shop etc where they sold/made a lot of the big models that used to be in travel agents etc across the road from the Master Robert, in the curved row of shops, but the name of the shop completely escapes me now 45+ years on despite many visits there.

[treadigraph]

Was it Skyline Models? I never went there, used to go to the enthusiasts' shop further east down the Bath Road - same people as the Aviation Hobby Shop?

Or is that the one you mean - I don't recall the travel agents' models though...

Edit: I think we are talking about the same place!

[rog747]

What airlines did we see at North side?


BOAC up to the Comet 4 and 707 era

Pan Am up to the 707 era

TWA

TCA up to the DC-8 era

KLM

SAS

Flugfelag (Iceland Airways)

Air India up to the 707 era

Qantas Empire up to the 707 era

SAA

Lufthansa

Swiss Air

Air France

Panair do Brasil

Air Ceylon

PIA first 707 1960

CAA

CAA WAAC EAAC SAA Malayan Nigeria Ghana BWIA (all flown by BOAC types)

Aeroflot

EL AL

Slick

Sabena

Iberia

Capitol

Hunting Clan


Fascinating stuff, seems St Mawgan NQY was the only other place that had the same tower as Heathrow, complete with the SECO huts and Met. square all laid out the same, it's all still there?

Runway No1 28R/10L was closed from about 1952 - 1955 while the road tunnel was dug by cut and cover. The eastern end was used for overspill aircraft parking from the Northside apron which BEA was using increasingly with Ambassadors and Viscounts and eventually all of their London ops went there when they had to vacate Northolt, the passengers were processed in the Northside terminal then bussed to the temporary apron on Runway No1.

[DaveReidUK]

The big Northside ramp west of the tunnel later became the long term car park, not resurfaced, and certainly until the early 2000s had the original concrete surface, looking a bit careworn, with the ghosts of where various flush lights etc had been patched over.

I don't think there was ever a northside ramp west of the tunnel, just a continuation of the parallel taxiway that eventually rejoined the northern runway at the 09L (10L) threshold, just past the threshold of the relocated 15R (originally 16R), opposite what is now exit A11:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x629/aerial_photograph_of_heathrow_airport_1955_64814b2f837ae961a 8d634c5361a21a4c43144c2.jpg

You can indeed still see the neglected concrete taxiway slabs on GE, at least up to the boundary fence, and I remember them in the northside staff car park when I used to work in the CTA, though it looks like the car parks themselves are pretty well all tarmac now.

The stretch of the Northern Perimeter Road past the Renaissance is on the line of the original taxiway, and you can still see part of the Heathrow North apron to the south of the road, opposite the Heathrow Academy.

[pax britanica]

Thanks for the additions/corrections to my recollections and indeed ut was the Travellers Friend at the A4 A30 split-it was, of course, the A4 not the A3 as well.

My first date with my wife was in the very old White Horse in Longford village 45 years ago, of course being locals the fact that the lovely old pub was so very close to the airport and noisy as hell-this is 1976 -was just unnoticed.

As has been pointed out being an old coaching era road there were several pubs along the Bath road and indeed if one headed a little further west to Colnbrooke there were several coaching inn types including the famous/infamous Ostrich .
Perhaps they have all gone too.

As for the poster who cycled from Ashford to Beacon road via Stanwell village (,wouldnt Clare Road through the 'Airways Estate' have been quicker of perhaps it was not built by then. The road access at Beacon road was open to all and I remember the Skyways Yorks parked down that end of the airfield at 'Field Aviation' or thereabouts. Fields was the main handling company for various biz jets light aircraft and other oddities back then and a spotters target even though for those days it was fairly secure.

[PAXboy]

Pre WWII.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/525x368/heathrow_before_world_war_ii_map_86aee73bbe090896ec4e343faf9 1439190315675.jpg
Then in 1948


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/525x370/heathrow_1948_9dbb48f91bbb131b90c7e102f078a4ba4cf57a61.jpg

[Jackjones1]

Wasn’t Hunting Clan before Fields?

[chevvron]

I don't think there was ever a northside ramp west of the tunnel, just a continuation of the parallel taxiway that eventually rejoined the northern runway at the 09L (10L) threshold, just past the threshold of the relocated 15R (originally 16R), opposite what is now exit A11:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x629/aerial_photograph_of_heathrow_airport_1955_64814b2f837ae961a 8d634c5361a21a4c43144c2.jpg


Look above the two 15R thresholds; there's a site outside the taxiway with connnection to the taxiway. This was originally an air defence radar unit (nothing to do with airport ops) for Ground Controlled Interception (GCI) ie vectoring fighters onto attacking aircraft.
It was operational from WW2 until the mid '50s when its function was transferred to a new unit at Chenies, just south of Bovingdon airfield and the site was then occupied by Southern Air Traffic Control Centre controlling civil aircraft in controlled airspace around the south of England who moved in from Uxbridge.
This was later joined by Heathrow Radar, an RAF ATCRU ie not air defence and the two operated from this site until 1971 when they moved to RAF West Drayton, Southern ATCC being re-named London ATCC in the late '60s and Heathrow Radar becoming London Military Radar..

[chevvron]

When you said Northolt was also in need of construction I'm not quite sure I follow. Wasn't Northolt only temporarily used for passenger services before the RAF took it back? I would have thought the focus would have stayed with London Airport (Heathrow) as prime concern over Northolt.


During WW2, Northolt was a fighter airfield and as such, did not have aprons large enough for large numbers of transport aircraft nor did it have buildings suitable for processing large numbers of passengers, so these were built on the south side of the airfield next to the A40 road.
The apron is still in use nowadays.

[India Four Two]

My first date with my wife was in the very old White Horse in Longford village 45 years ago

In the late 80s, I was with a group of fifteen oil-company colleagues that overnighted in the Sheraton at Heathrow, on the way back to Calgary, after two weeks in Russia. Collectively we were desperate for something other than vodka to drink, so after checking-in, the plan was to meet in the lobby and go to the hotel bar. The bar didn't look very inviting so I went to the concierge and asked him if there was a decent pub nearby. He enthusiastically recommended the White Horse so we strolled the half-mile down to the pub. It was the evening of Guy Fawkes Day and I distinctly remember the smell of gunpowder in the air and rockets littering the streets.

Several of my colleagues had never been to England before and were stunned to discover that the building was 400 years old! We had a very convivial evening and probably drove out some of the regulars, but I don't think the landlord minded. We drank vast amounts of beer and the smokers amongst us bought the whole of the landlord's cigar stock. I remember a blue-haze overcast between the ceiling beams that was becoming lower and lower as the evening progressed. ;)

[treadigraph]

It was the evening of Guy Fawkes Day and I distinctly remember the smell of gunpowder in the air and rockets littering the streets.

I believe Baron Knyvet who was instrumental in foiling the Gunpowder Plot had connections with the Heathrow area...

[PAXboy]

My first visit was in about 1963 to wave my sister off on a school exchange trip to Germany from the Europa.
First 'active' visit was leaving from the Oceanic on a VC-10 for JNB in December 1965 (via CIA + NBO!) with my family, I was nine.
Perhaps most unsual arrival was on the old diagonal '23' in a Viscount of the first Manx Air (from IOM) in the early 1980s. Someone will tell us when 23 was closed.

[MarkB1]

There used to be a big aviation model shop/book shop etc where they sold/made a lot of the big models that used to be in travel agents etc across the road from the Master Robert, in the curved row of shops, but the name of the shop completely escapes me now 45+ years on despite many visits there.


VHF Supplies?

[3greensok]

Hi, I am really enjoying this thread. As a boy I grew up around LGW. Anyone care to offer similar memories? Thanks!

[DaveReidUK]

VHF Supplies?

Yes, VHF Supplies at Noble Corner (opposite the Master Robert), run by the late Brian Tomkins who later traded as Collectors Aircraft Models.

[DaveReidUK]

Someone will tell us when 23 was closed.

You'd have to tell us whether you mean 23L or 23R. :O

[PAXboy]

DRUK. As you are a venerable poster, I shall refrain from saying Smart@rse! We were approaching from IOM and, somewhere near the usual Wenbley point of turning on to the Eastbound circuit, the flight deck announced we would see an unusual view of LHR but not to be worried as it also meant we would arrive early! As far as I recall, it was then in from the North East on to 23 [?]

[treadigraph]

Yes, VHF Supplies at Noble Corner (opposite the Master Robert), run by the late Brian Tomkins who later traded as Collectors Aircraft Models.

Ah yes, that's the place I used to go to - could never afford much as an impecunious teenager, would generally just buy a few postcards from their extraordinary collection. Rather more spacious than AHS as I recall...

[GeeRam]

VHF Supplies?

That's it.....:ok:

I've been trying to remember what it was called for years and years. For about 4 years I used to drive past that junction every morning on way to work, and often used to sit at the lights looking over to where it was and trying to remember what it was called. :rolleyes:

[Clyffe Pypard]

In 1948 on the 81 bus towards Slough on the Bath Road, whilst on way the the ATC gliding School at Langley, Heathrow had Yorks, Lancastrians and the odd Halifax. Lots of mud and cement mixers.

In Sept. 1951 with 26 other RAF trainees on a BOAC coach from Victoria, we shivered in the tents before boarding a brand new Stratocruiser to Montreal via Keflavik. Still lots of mud and cement mixers.

Rather surprised and the lack of progress over the intervening ears although things picked up in the mid '50's.

[goldox]

Bought my first Airband Radio in VHF Supplies many years ago.

[DaveReidUK]

DRUK. As you are a venerable poster, I shall refrain from saying Smart@rse! We were approaching from IOM and, somewhere near the usual Wenbley point of turning on to the Eastbound circuit, the flight deck announced we would see an unusual view of LHR but not to be worried as it also meant we would arrive early! As far as I recall, it was then in from the North East on to 23 [?]

Sorry! Though I've been called worse. :O

The last movement on 23 (23L) was a landing by a South African Airways 747 on 27th October 2002. Even in those days, using 23 (in strong south-westerly winds) was a PITA because it meant that the stands at the end of the T2 piers weren't able to be used at the same time.

There was an airside roadway crossing the runway which I used to take advantage of whenever I had a need to get from the CTA to the BA East Base (just discernable in the photo below). The spoilsports used to close it on the rare occasions when 05R/23L was in use, but even with no landings it was still fun crossing the inner and outer ring taxiways, giving way to aircraft taxying past if necessary.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/319x283/23l_crossing_84aa6a81adf2f23a9b9c842cd4c6db3c97b7408a.jpg

[PAXboy]

Most interesting. I did not realise that 23L functioned so long. It could certainly have been used by the Manx 146 which took over from the Viscounts and started operations in December 1987. I remember it well as, by chance I was on the innaugural rotation of G-MIMA (I think it was) from LHR.

The aircraft was officially launching on the Friday evening rotation and there was to be the usual razzamatazz, I learnt. I had booked on the lunch time rotation to see my mother for the weekend and found myself with a small group of others being given champagne as the lunch time was a proving flight for the evening and the photographers. We could have popped in and out on 05R/23L with ease, especially as we usually went from gate 12 (or 14?) at the end of the long pier - this done for inspection and isolation of pax as IOM was a known staging point from Northern Ireland.

It turned out to be the only time I've been on a new a/c for a route but did find myself on the innaugral rotation of a new route once - but that did not involve EGLL.

[ExBa]

Several memories from me. Old school mate of mine used to work at VHF supplies. My wife and family lived opposite VHF supplies Upper Sutton Lane. I worked for British Eagle 1966-68. Walking down passed the hangers from the ops huts to the admin building and witnessed BOAC 707 WE landing with engine fire ran out to the aircraft with a bunch of Eagle engineers to help pax onto the grass verge next to the RWY.

[ExSp33db1rd]

I did not realise that 23L functioned so long.

23L ? April 1974, on the final leg of my check flight to be promoted to Captain, Bahrain to London, I was cleared for a visual approach to runway 05R ! This was not a plot organised by the Training Captain, he was as surprised as I was. Visual Approach in a 707 ? Rwy. 05 R ? Never ever landed on that runway, or anything other than the 10/28's but at least it was daylight. All happened, and as I applied the brakes and shut down, the Training Captain extended his hand and said " Congratulations, CAPTAIN XXXX " Success.

[chevvron]

Bought my first Airband Radio in VHF Supplies many years ago.
Me too.
I was stationed at West Drayton so I took a trip down to the Bath Road late 1969 after a morning duty to buy my first airband radio; also bought a kit for a 1/72 scale Islander but could never figure out how to build it as it was vacform and I was used to 'standard' Airfix and Frog plastic kits.

[pulse1]

I am not sure of the year, probably 56/7, but the only thing I can remember about a day trip to Heathrow was a line of Constellations. I first saw them, gleaming in the sunshine, when we were about a mile away. When we were taken past them I could see that they were covered in green mould and were obviously awaiting disposal. The visit was part of an ATC camp which was either at Andover or Benson.

[MarkB1]

Bought my first Airband Radio in VHF Supplies many years ago.

I used to sneak out of school at lunchtime through a gap in the fence and cross the great west rd to visit VHF Supplies. I remember an airband scanner was always on and tuned into Heathrow App and TWR. There was also a list of interesting movements at Heathrow (and others?) on the wall that was constantly updated. Used to get excited when the latest edition of World Airline Fleets arrived.

[PAXboy]

ExSp33db1rd Great story! So you declined the suggestion and asked for a '28'??

[WHBM]

23L ? April 1974, on the final leg of my check flight to be promoted to Captain, Bahrain to London, I was cleared for a visual approach to runway 05R ! This was not a plot organised by the Training Captain, he was as surprised as I was. Visual Approach in a 707 ? Rwy. 05 R ? Never ever landed on that runway, or anything other than the 10/28's but at least it was daylight.
Didn't the BOAC accident 707 in 1968 (engine fell off) make a tight visual onto 05R ?

[Bergerie1]

Yes it did - and not the easiest runway to land on.

[WHBM]

I used to visit in the early-mid 1980s the large office building (non-aviation) Heathrow House on the A4 at Cranford. Inbound to 28R were pretty close and low on the A4 side of the building, but rooms further back gave a westward view of anyone on finals for 23L. Not a lot, but suddenly they would start passing by at close intervals, often for just a couple of hours, then stop again. The same company used to have another place by Wembley Stadium, and if 23 was in use they used to pass right over there as well.

I am convinced that one morning there at that time I saw a Northwest 747 passing by for 28R, which I worked out at length was a subcharter substitute for Malaysian coming in from Kuala Lumpur, but have never found any more to substantiate that. No documented lease, nor can I see any reason why Northwest would do it. Alternatives could be a Gatwick diversion ? White House press charter ? Any offers ?

[pax britanica]

Real memory lane for me this thread,
Yes the White horse in Longford was ancient and a real picture postcard English pub , door way was tiny and you had to stoop if much over 5 ft tall. Ostrich in Colnbrook was even older I think.

landings on 05R were rare to say the least although i was on a Trident 3 Faro LHR returning from my honeymoon on the only time in probably 200 landings at LHR i have clocked up as pax. Very strange sort of massively upscaled GA type approach flying overhead LHR then a big sweeping base leg to take us back south of Staines and then back for a visual or 'talk down approach-extremely strong and extremely cold NE winds. I used to listen to the talk downs on my Airband on the rare occasions in use, very interesting . If I recall the approach controller handled the aircraft until 'report crossing the Thames at Laleham , sort of outer marker and then pilots told to change frequency and 'not to respond to further instructions as controller began a stream of slightly high on the glide , on the glidepath etc etc or turn left 5 degrees , two miles to touchdown etc ending very abruptly with half a mile from touchdown on glidepath on localiser check wheels down and locked approach completed out . Fascinating .

As to BOAC 707 accident I watched that happen, sitting on my wall in Stanwell with a friend a small boy (i was a bigger boy just) -said to us look that plane is on fire and we both thought it was sunlight glinting on the fuselage as it was early evening but were horrified to see flames and smoke streaming from it and as it disappeared from view (it would have been only about 100ft) at that point waited until an inevitable huge pall of black smoke welled up from the direction of the eastern end of LHR . Pretty shocking site that i can see in my minds eye today.

As for the relationship between the man who caught and probably tortured Guy Fawkes was Sir Thomas Knyvett , He was given lands in what would have been the south western part of LHR and Stanwell village. A Lord Knyvetts Close is there to this day and he has what is for a small country church (albeit one with a very tall spire) quite a substantial memorial inside the church itself. The Church, with the rather un Anglican name of St Mary the Virgin dates from the 12th Century and is a grade 1 listed building. Readily visible from LHR it also has a strange twisted spire and was where I got married. Only a few hundred meters from 27L anyone on the left hand side of a departure from that runway gets a striking view of the lovely old building. It also had a beautiful Georgian Vicarage in the Church close on the small village green I also went to Sunday School there as a kid , rather unwilling but in 1957 that wasn't uncommon. I attended Lord Knyvetts School built in 1624 after a provision in Knyvetts will. he was a very distinguished servant of the crown, the ancient school is barely 100m from the southern perimeter road . Back then it was open country at that end of the airport before the Cargo centre was built and spoiled much of the view.

By a bizarre coincidence I am writing this in my new home in Frome Somerset where a man came today to mend my dishwasher and he also grew up in Stanwell and the stricken BOAC 707 would have flown over the road he lived in at the other end of the village from me .

So excuse my self indulgent thread drift but I often feel that because of its once rural nature the southside of LHR gets a bit overlooked .

PB

[dixi188]

About 1982 there was a Northwest 747 that spat out a load of turbine blades on take off at Gatwick. It diverted to Heathrow as the Gatwick runway was being swept and inspected for FOD.
Were there fire engines about?

[WHBM]

That could fit the NW 747 indeed. The office is a mile or so from the threshold so no idea what was happening inside the airport, and I was back inside the office. But there was something about it (low ? noise ?) that caught my attention more than most, as I saw it flash past.

[Trinity 09L]

My association starts with being at school alongside Croydon airport from 60 to 65, and getting the aviation bug. I did not train spot but moved to aviation instead, travelling to LHR or LGW. Unable somehow to get into aviation,
I did arrive in Staines to live just as the PI accident had taken place. I did work at Northside from 75 to 81, and had access to all areas.
My first flight from LHR was in 76, and it took over 40 yrs before my first pax go around inbound on 09L AE from Dublin. I also had a jump seat on a BMA DC 9 from Teeside and on BA 747 - 300 inbound from Chicago. Visited both towers to the top. Close friends with retired and current pilots, and ATC staff.
Got my PPL eventually aged #&. I organised the start for the memorial for PI in 2000+ via pprune and local folk.
LHR still by home airport.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Leovinus - pls. see P.M.

[chevvron]

landings on 05R were rare to say the least

PB
Not in the early '80s when I lived in Frimley.
Inbounds would pass virtually overhead on long final; I was woken up several times by 05 ops and of course when I got to work at Farnborough, our departures from 07 had to be limited so as not to climb into the Heathrow inbounds as normally when Heathrow was on easterlies, we could climb our departures to 6,000ft overhead Farnborough.

[DaveReidUK]

I don't recall seeing any 05R landings during the various spells I had working in the CTA in the mid-70s, so they certainly weren't as common as those on 23L. That's hardly surprising given the relative frequency of strong NE vs SW winds in this part of the world.

Interestingly, the extract below from a July 1968 Aerad chart shows 15R/33L as having recently closed (for the construction of T3 Pier 7 for the 747), but 05L/23R still available. At that point, the latter would have been by far the shortest (and narrowest) of Heathrow's runways (6255' x 250') and I don't think it survived much longer, as by then it was constraining any extension of T3 Pier 5. The current control tower also stands on the old 05L/23R footprint.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/546x271/extract_from_lhr_1968_chart_7abb60442a72eaf2e9bddbe4435536e3 68c0e9c2.jpg

[treadigraph]

The elevations are interesting, it really is as near as dammit flat! Bit mountainous in the NW corner... :p

I recall seeing a few landings on 23 over the years (including a BA 747 with some alarming looking flames while reverse thrust was deployed) but never anything on 05 - but maybe I avoided going to Heathrow when a spending a few hours on the roof of the Queen's Building/T2 would have been in a chilly NE wind!

[bentbanana]

Im a bit late to the party - used to travel to LHR as a teenager in the 70s - the 140 bus of course! Hanging out of the front windows and unscrewing the light bulbs......
Sometimes also used to bike from South Harrow with mates and spent time riding around the perimiter road - one spectacular sight was a whole line up of 747 waiting to depart the then 10R - BA-AC-AI-PA-TW - I wish Id had a camera handy!!
Later in life actually worked there for various foreign airlines - I remember one stormy night 05R was being used (late 80s??) and the captain on the flight I was handling kept asking if he could use 10R but was out of crosswind limits - he didnt look too pleased about 05R - but departed all the same!

[GeeRam]

I don't recall seeing any 05R landings during the various spells I had working in the CTA in the mid-70s, so they certainly weren't as common as those on 23L. That's hardly surprising given the relative frequency of strong NE vs SW winds in this part of the world.


I thought landing on 05R were stopped by early 1981, because of the starting of the building of Terminal 4, with any 05R landings being far too close to the works and site boundary of the new T4..?
I started on the T4 site in April '81 and there were no 05R landings in my time on site there between then and 1984 when I left.

[DaveReidUK]

I thought landing on 05R were stopped by early 1981, because of the starting of the building of Terminal 4, with any 05R landings being far too close to the works and site boundary of the new T4..?

That's entirely possible.

Never having seen any means that I have no idea when they stopped. :O

[PAXboy]

DaveReidUK reported:
The last movement on 23 (23L) was a landing by a South African Airways 747 on 27th October 2002. Even in those days, using 23 (in strong south-westerly winds) was a PITA because it meant that the stands at the end of the T2 piers weren't able to be used at the same time.

[DaveReidUK]

Well yes, I think we've established that the last movement on 05R was probably some years prior to the last movement on 23L.

Same bit of concrete, different direction. :O

[rog747]

05R
BA 747 landing March 1977

pic credit. Kjell Nilsson

Last time I recall flying off 05R was in one of our F27's (BMA) in howling NNE winds/sleet/blizzard and the Tower told the skipper to STOP during a very slow T/O roll.
We had plenty of runway left to start again.
The conflict was one landing on 10R and another 3 miles behind him.

I cannot ever recalling landing on 05R but may have done when I was a boy with British Eagle in a Britannia.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x655/0282437_02d44d01f8952cffdcf553f27b02292dfcc73358.jpg

[DaveReidUK]

Next challenge - find a photo of any movement on 05L or 23R ! :O

[pax britanica]

Rog 747. As I mentioned in an earlier post we came back from Faro our honeymoon on I think March 27 1977 and landed on 05R. Nut your pic could have been taken a few days earlier because I think UK was in the grip of biting strong NE winds and snow for a few days that month.

Threshold shots would have been hard as not much public space around the 05 threshold only roads or rivers and it would have been bloody cold that week as well.

I seem to remember that 05s had very inferior approach lights on wooden poles

PB

[FAL]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/616x972/ace_of_spades_25b4b7b27ffe686a37eb98d1b4ad4a5f3e4abe59.jpg
The Master Robert on the then A30 was mentioned earlier. It can be seen in the background of this photo from late 1967. At the time the walls and ceiling of the Pit and Paddock bar carried signatures and comments from many of the then current F1 and Sports car racing drivers. All that was lost in a later re-decoration. The photo is taken across the road at the Ace of Spades service station and is the day after the cancellation of the 1967 RAC Rally of Great Britain due to a Foot and Mouth disease outbreak. It shows Lars Helmer, co-driver of later world rally champion Bjorn Waldegard with a Porsche 911 of the Swedish Scania Vabis team (who taught the Porsche factory how to prepare cars for rough forest rallies). Next to VHS Supplies across the road who were also mentioned was later the site of Automania Accessories who sponsored my own first International rally entries.

[GeeRam]

The Ace of Spades service station is also now long gone as well.

You can still see the remains of the low level white brick wall which bordered the footpath and where the entrance's crossed the footpaths, and there are two big advertising hoardings on the waste ground of where the service station used to be now.

[WHBM]

The office I described on the A4 at Cranford, Heathrow House, was a nightmare to get taxis to from a Heathrow terminal, where they had been ranked up for an hour or two anticipating a job to The City at least. It was next door to another hotel, the Berkeley Arms, which has also been demolished and a Doubletree built on the site. But if you asked the taxi driver for the hotel instead, which didn't have its own shuttle bus, they knew they could be given a ticket by the doorman which allowed them back to the head of the taxi queue at the airport. Driver still grumbled though.

Probably early 1980s, when standby transatlantic tickets had their time, the company there, based in Detroit, had a miserly US managing director Mr X who wrote around that travel to the US, which there was quite a lot of, should henceforth be by standby, "as it's cheapest and in my experience there are always seats". What a pain to have to go to the airport twice, once when the ticket office opened and once for the afternoon flight. Said MD was also provided with a Daimler and chauffeur - the classic sort of such driver, had the job for years and seen all the top management come and go. One morning the manager of the Newcastle office had come down on the first BA domestic to a meeting, and was walking out of Terminal 1 when he sees said chauffeur standing in the ticket counter queue. So he goes up to him. "Hello, what are you dong here". "Oh, Mr X is going to Detroit this afternoon so I've to come over for his standby ticket. Hang on a minute and I'll give you a lift back to the office ".

It's surprising that over the decades Heathrow never sorted out short distance taxi journeys from the terminals.

[India Four Two]

I was just looking at the historical imagery on GE. Here's one from 2004, where 23L is still marked as an active runway, but must only be used as a taxiway, due to the proximity of the parked Concorde. The runway number and the TDZ markings survived until 2006, but no X markings were applied.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/749x543/screen_shot_2021_03_12_at_6_49_51_pm_7d537ef70e99e9fe7706edd b0f06e5ad7628c5b8.png

[chevvron]

The office I described on the A4 at Cranford, Heathrow House, was a nightmare to get taxis to from a Heathrow terminal, .
When NATS moved out of the CTB in the Central Area, units like AIS moved to a 'Heathrow House' on the A4 as did the admin/personnel offices from Sibson Court. Unfortunately this also meant their medical branch at the CTB also moved so my annual visit to Heathrow for my ATCO medical (parked my car in Woking and got the coach from the railway station to the Central Area which stopped right outside the medical centre) had to be done elsewhere; nice little money spinner for NATS it used to be as many airline pilots would get their medicals done there too.
I presume this is the same Heathrow House as the one mentioned above, however I thnk all these units have now moved to Whiteley, Hants.

[WHBM]

Yes, I think Heathrow House (still there) had worked through a few tenants, including BA, as I recall a continuing problem with telephone crossed lines with a BA back office elsewhere (in passing an aspect of telecoms that has gone completely away). The company took over the whole building some time in the late 1970s, and moved out 10 years later. The building had a substantial "refacing" of the glazed front A4 elevation, including much more rigorous double glazing. Phone number 01-759-6522 I recall (which appears thus to have been circulating uselessly in my brain these last 35 years ...).

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Yes, I think Heathrow House (still there) had worked through a few tenants, including BA, as I recall a continuing problem with telephone crossed lines with a BA back office elsewhere (in passing an aspect of telecoms that has gone completely away). The company took over the whole building some time in the late 1970s, and moved out 10 years later. The building had a substantial "refacing" of the glazed front A4 elevation, including much more rigorous double glazing. Phone number 01-759-6522 I recall (which appears thus to have been circulating uselessly in my brain these last 35 years ...).
759 being derived from SKYport on the old rotary dialling telephones. British Eagle's telephone number was SKYport 3611, BOAC's was SKYport 5511 as late as April 1969, but by October 1972 it had changed to 01-759-5511.

[G-ARZG]

The office I described on the A4 at Cranford, Heathrow House, was a nightmare to get taxis to from a Heathrow terminal, where they had been ranked up for an hour or two anticipating a job to The City at least. It was next door to another hotel, the Berkeley Arms, which has also been demolished and a Doubletree built on the site. But if you asked the taxi driver for the hotel instead, which didn't have its own shuttle bus, they knew they could be given a ticket by the doorman which allowed them back to the head of the taxi queue at the airport. Driver still grumbled though.

Probably early 1980s, when standby transatlantic tickets had their time, the company there, based in Detroit, had a miserly US managing director Mr X who wrote around that travel to the US, which there was quite a lot of, should henceforth be by standby, "as it's cheapest and in my experience there are always seats". What a pain to have to go to the airport twice, once when the ticket office opened and once for the afternoon flight. Said MD was also provided with a Daimler and chauffeur - the classic sort of such driver, had the job for years and seen all the top management come and go. One morning the manager of the Newcastle office had come down on the first BA domestic to a meeting, and was walking out of Terminal 1 when he sees said chauffeur standing in the ticket counter queue. So he goes up to him. "Hello, what are you dong here". "Oh, Mr X is going to Detroit this afternoon so I've to come over for his standby ticket. Hang on a minute and I'll give you a lift back to the office ".

It's surprising that over the decades Heathrow never sorted out short distance taxi journeys from the terminals.

​​​​​​It was sorted - cabs returning to the feeder rank within a certain time period could queue-jump. Didn't stop the cabbies whinging though.

[SimonPaddo]

Anyone else willing to admit to buying JP World Airline Fleets from VHF supplies for spotting?

[GAXLN]

I thought landing on 05R were stopped by early 1981, because of the starting of the building of Terminal 4, with any 05R landings being far too close to the works and site boundary of the new T4..?
I started on the T4 site in April '81 and there were no 05R landings in my time on site there between then and 1984 when I left.

Use of 05R continued for a while longer after 1981. I had just the one landing on 05R which was 9th December 1983 on board BA315 inbound from Paris CDG, operated by Tristar-1 G-BBAH. IIRC it was a very windy night and the total flight time for the flight that I recorded was one hour twenty-seven minutes as we held for some time due to the weather conditions and the use of runway 05R. It was a pleasant surprise to me when I realised it was a 05R approach as, at that time, I lived between Staines and Laleham and a very rare opportunity to fly directly over the area at low level. Sadly, it was dark so not the view it might have been dodging amongst the clouds on a daytime flight. Certainly by this time use of 05 was pretty unusual but if the weather conditions were "right" it was still in use at this time and I believe for a while longer.

[scotbill]

When I moved to Viscounts at London in 1960 the staff carpark for the Queens Building was a green field next door - which subsequently became the site of Terminal 1
O5 L may have been shorter than the others but I remember landing a Comet on it mid-60s. No problem with a strong north easterly

[DaveReidUK]

When I moved to Viscounts at London in 1960 the staff carpark for the Queens Building was a green field next door - which subsequently became the site of Terminal 1
O5 L may have been shorter than the others but I remember landing a Comet on it mid-60s. No problem with a strong north easterly

In the 60s, BEA supplemented the Vanguards between LHR and EDI, with its then 6000' runway (shorter than LHR 05L) and frequent crosswinds, substituting Comets on some services to compete with BUA and its 1-11s.

[scotbill]

Actually the Trident 3b was more challenging than either the Comet or Vanguard on EDI 31.

[pax britanica]

Wasn't the short runway at EDI ,one of the reasons the Trident 3 had its 'extra engine . In fact as I now recall my landing on 05 was a T3 with some of the internal decor having the word Shuttle on it

[treadigraph]

Anyone else willing to admit to buying JP World Airline Fleets from VHF supplies for spotting?
I certainly bought at least one copy when I was about 13 or 14 - Civil Aircraft Markings was a bit limited in what was included.

Great thread, please keep the memories flowing!

[DaveReidUK]

Wasn't the short runway at EDI, one of the reasons the Trident 3 had its 'extra engine.

I'm not so sure that EDI performance in particular was a design driver, but there's no doubt it helped.

Of course the real reason was that, with the curvature of the Earth being less up north, that couldn't be relied upon to get the aircraft airborne.

[eckhard]

Gravity's stronger up there too, and you're further from the helpful pull of the moon .......

[Kiltrash]

My first flight I can just remember was early '60's and would be 7or. 8. Edinburgh to London in the Vanguard. Looking at the Aircraft I thought it was a space rocket and in flight it sounded like one....
Now although I cannot remember the incident I was taken to the cockpit for the ctuise and possibly not strapped for the landing and there is / was a photo long lost of the event.😐
Later experienced a couple of Trident flights to EDI and I remember landing and stopping just before the fence and was pushed back to turn to the terminal. ..

[mcdhu]

Witnessed quite a few Vanguard, Trident and 1-11 (BUA) 'arrivals' onto RW 13 at EDI while on the UAS and AEF. This was in the late 60s before Edinburgh had radar; the routing was 'OE' and 'TRH' NDBs, procedure turn followed by ILS 13. I don't think there was an instrument approach onto RW 31 and so with a strong westerly, there was a tailwind and a crosswind. Great spectator sport!!
mcdhu

[ExBa]

Yes, I think Heathrow House (still there) had worked through a few tenants, including BA, as I recall a continuing problem with telephone crossed lines with a BA back office elsewhere (in passing an aspect of telecoms that has gone completely away). The company took over the whole building some time in the late 1970s, and moved out 10 years later. The building had a substantial "refacing" of the glazed front A4 elevation, including much more rigorous double glazing. Phone number 01-759-6522 (tel:01-759-6522) I recall (which appears thus to have been circulating uselessly in my brain these last 35 years ...).
Worked in BOAC purchasing department for a while 1970, we moved from TBA into temporary accommodation at Heathrow House before the final move to the offices top of TBC. Now that provided fantastic views for the approach for 28R. Including a birds eye view of the 707 engine fire whilst performing engine runs.

[WHBM]

Edinburgh : I seem to have been everywhere that gets discussed, and I was at university there early-mid 1970s, from the first discussions about the "new" runway (with its approach directly over our professor's house in Cramond, so we heard it all) through to its opening and the new terminal. For some reason three of the four major airports in Scotland in that era, Prestwick, Aberdeen and Edinburgh, all had their main runways at right angles to the prevailing wind. Only Glasgow was the "right way round". There was extensive coverage that because of the short runway BA had to continue using Vanguards, not jets, but when BUA started One-Eleven ops to Gatwick there were Comets, and then Tridents, slipped in at competitive times, and by the time the new runway was complete it was an all-Trident operation anyway.

Bits of the old terminal, on the opposite side of the airport, were still there when I last looked some years ago, a set which would have given Heathrow Northside a good run in the ramshackle stakes. It faced the ramp and didn't even have double glazing - Vanguards manoeuvring directly in front of the windows made any communication impossible. As these doing so were audible from up at Edinburgh Castle, 6 miles away, it must have been ear splitting for the staff.

Well remember when BUA became B Cal they introduced a 10pm departure "Moonjet" to Gatwick. I think the fare was £6.60 each way. In more recent times I went up to Edinburgh when a 146 was operating some of the Scot Airways flights from London City, otherwise a Dornier turboprop run. Left the terminal one evening, maybe 15 years ago, turned an unusual way, and actually did a runway 13 takeoff to the south-east. Just like a generation beforehand.

[DaveReidUK]

Well remember when BUA became B Cal they introduced a 10pm departure "Moonjet" to Gatwick. I think the fare was £6.60 each way.

It was indeed £6.60. I used it just the once, while I was waiting for my BEA concessions to kick in, from which point onwards it cost me £2.20 return to go back and visit my folks, who lived in Cramond and were strong supporters of the new runway.

With admirable foresight, they had built a ground-floor extension in the early 1970s which included a skylight. :O

[chevvron]

When I was at Glasow doing my tower training, we had a Vanguard come in on a 3 engine ferry with about a 60 deg crosswind.
All looked 'normal' until at about 100ft, I think he must have dropped full flap and the aircraft's attitude became VERY steep nose down just before flaring.
Prior to this, my instructor had asked me what 'standby' I would put on and I replied 'Local Standby' but he said 'no, Full Emergency; you'll see why'.
And I did!!

[chevvron]

It was indeed £6.60. I used it just the once, while I was waiting for my BEA concessions to kick in, from which point onwards it cost me £2.20 return to go back and visit my folks, who lived in Cramond and were strong supporters of the new runway.

Explains why in mid 1972, BEA introduced a '£13.20p return' offer from Glasgow (maybe Edinburgh too?); you had to travel out and return weekends only a week apart to take advantage so I booked to go to Heathrow one saturday, hiring a car at Heathrow to visit my parents in Chesham, returning the following sunday.
No concessions for ATCOs those days; we were still Civil Servants and a concession, in the eyes of our bosses at the DoTI, could have been interpreted as being a 'bribe' to get preferential treatment for whichever airline we travelled on. (At least that was the 'official' reason)

[WHBM]

A bit more on 1970s Moonjet experience here : Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion. - Page 92 - FlyerTalk Forums (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1282073-old-timer-s-airline-quiz-discussion-92.html#post21711179)

[PAXboy]

chevvron
... could have been interpreted as being a 'bribe' to get preferential treatment for whichever airline we travelled on.
Pal of mine who works a tower in the UK says that the only priority is if one of their colleagues is on board waiting for a departure. They try to make sure their holidays get off to a good start! They later report that the flight deck said: "Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm glad to say that our slot has been brought forward. Cabin Crew please take your seats."
:ok:
[allegedly]

[treadigraph]

Feels a bit like I'm peddling books here... my apologies... but I too can recommend Sky Talk vol.1, see here: https://amzn.to/38ghgv4, also available from the publisher here: Sky Talk | Sunrise Publishing (http://www.burntash.eu/sky-talk)

My copy is arriving later today :) .

I was also reminded of another excellent and relevant book when moving a pile of recently read tomes last night:

Flight From the Croft by Bill Innes

This is an account of his flying career which encompasses most of the types operated by BEA/BA, plus more besides. My copy has now been recycled - to the "waiting to be read" pile, and hopefully by the time I've read it again, my bookshelves will be back up to provide a more fitting home than the top of a chest of drawers...

Recommended.

[Dave Gittins]

My recollection from visiting VHF Supplies (regularly by bicycle in the 1960s on a Saturday from home in Isleworth) was that one Brian Stainer also inhabited VHF Supplies shop, from where he sold his photos and slides as APN; Aviation Photo News.

And on the subject of pubs in the area, my favourite was always the Green Man, from where, sitting in the garden with a pint of Watneys you could reach up and touch the tyres of planes landing on 28L and later on 27 L

[treadigraph]

There used to be a shop on Selsdon Road in South Croydon which did mail order aircraft slides and prints - think it might have been Brian Stainer? I never went there as I bought postcards as a lad (or raided airline offices) but wasn't much interested in other people's pics.

Edit: quick research suggests definitely not Brian Stainer, does anyone else recall it? Sure they used to advertise in Air Pictorial, etc...

[pax britanica]

The Green Man at Hatton cross was indeed a good place for inbounds but you couldn't see the departures from the other side of the airport and Iwas too young to be on 'licensed premises' so it was the Cains lane A 30 junction for me. Another pub with good views on the right day (ie wind in right direction) was the Rising Sun at the end of Oaks Raod in Stanwell , cross the bridge over the two rivers and you are in the airport but the Cargo centre damaged the views when it came along

Brian Stainer I do remember , I think he had a bad leg and limp IIRC but he would stop by that junction for a chat with some of the more veteran spotters of that group. For some reason I think he had a red Del Boy style vehicle but that was an awfully long time ago. I know he was a keen and commercial photographer though and a good source of info on what might be around on the airfields local to LHR like Denham, Northolt, Fairoaks etc

[MarkB1]

I remember sitting on the grass area close to where aircraft would be towed across the perimeter road from the maintainence hangers. Probably inside the airport boundary now, it was fully open back in the late 70s when I was there. Good views for 28R arrivals and the odd very close up view of a 747 being pulled across the road. There used to be a Comet parked on the grass for training.

[PAXboy]

I remember that junction well! It (Eastchurch Road) was secured many years ago and all other traffic routed past the Long Stay 2+3 parks and to the Eastern Perimiter Road and Envoy Avenue to skirt all the maintenance areas and reach Hatton Cross.

[Max Tow]

And in the very beginning....
Somewhat before the time under discussion, but I recently came across this in a parliamentary report on LHR expansion.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/834x526/7e325512_85ea_42c8_917b_5467f5b54f6c_1_201_a_496c6f97ae9467b dd9dd8e901b627641bf7767bb.jpeg

[ZFT]

I remember sitting on the grass area close to where aircraft would be towed across the perimeter road from the maintainence hangers. Probably inside the airport boundary now, it was fully open back in the late 70s when I was there. Good views for 28R arrivals and the odd very close up view of a 747 being pulled across the road. There used to be a Comet parked on the grass for training.

That Comet arrived from Mexicana if my memory is correct in about 1969/1970. The BOAC apprentices moved over from an Argonaut to this Comet for training purposes. Whilst I was lucky enough to do engine runs on that Argonaut, I don't recall if the Comet was ever utilised for that.

[treadigraph]

I recall the rather singed looking Argonaut GALHJ was on the fire dump down near the threshold of 10L, as was, and the Comet G-APDT was parked nearby sans wings during my first visits in '75/'76

[ZFT]

All such a long time ago but I suspect you are totally correct with both airframes, especially APDT as I'm sure this was the aircraft BOAC leased to Mexicana

[DaveReidUK]

And in the very beginning....
Somewhat before the time under discussion, but I recently came across this in a parliamentary report on LHR expansion.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/834x526/7e325512_85ea_42c8_917b_5467f5b54f6c_1_201_a_496c6f97ae9467b dd9dd8e901b627641bf7767bb.jpeg

Nice find !

Although, interestingly, that plan was changed even before construction began, with the result that the northern runway was built longer (9000 feet) than the plan shows, so that the western NW-SE taxiway was no longer parallel to its runway (No 3):

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/580x550/heathrow_airport_and_continuing_construction_work_harmondswo rth_1946_4_8273b45220225c00713342eac8ee7e082088e6ab.jpg

[sandringham1]

I recall the rather singed looking Argonaut GALHJ was on the fire dump down near the threshold of 10L, as was, and the Comet G-APDT was parked nearby sans wings during my first visits in '75/'76
I was a BOAC apprentice 68/71, the Argonout was heavily corroded and went for fire training before I could get to play with it but the Comet arrived and we did use that, we would open the engine cowling, function controls and systems culminating with running the engines which seemed to worry the instructor in case we opened the throttles too wide, as if we would!
The radio still worked in RX but no longer in TX after someone broadcast music on a LHR's frequency and the cabin had been kitted out as a classroom with chairs and desks, t didn't go to the BAA fire crews until sometime in the 80's. .

[dixi188]

What and when was the first aircraft to use the new LAP?
Immediatly after WW2 long haul flights operated from Hurn, BOAC moved most ops. to LAP around 1948.
As an aside, in 1976 I worked in Airworks radio section at Hurn and outside on a concrete bollard you could still read "B.O.A.C No2 Line Headquarters".

[pax britanica]

Interesting to look at the very old map-oldest i have seen and with secret stamped all over it one assumes wartime.

Interesting to see the rail link from the Reading /Windsor to Waterloo line at Feltham which was never built but probably should have been - even today there is still a lot of open space between that line and southern LHR.

The 'Sludge' works known as Perry Oaks was reduced in size a little and the Duke of Northumberland's canal rerouted parallel to the Longford river along the southern boundary.

Perry Oaks hamlet had to be the least desirable place to live in Britain with runways on either side of it and back in the day another runway immediately to the east with sewage works to the west. Challenge for any estate agent to make that sound good.

All gone now of course under T5

[WHBM]

What and when was the first aircraft to use the new LAP?

British South American Airways Lancastrian, to Buenos Aires. Captain was Don Bennett. 1 January 1946.

That Comet arrived from Mexicana if my memory is correct in about 1969/1970. The BOAC apprentices moved over from an Argonaut to this Comet for training purposes. Whilst I was lucky enough to do engine runs on that Argonaut, I don't recall if the Comet was ever utilised for that.
The Comet 4 was ex-BOAC fleet G-APDT. Out of service at BOAC Autumn 1965 with the rest of the fleet, instead of being sold to Dan-Air like its compatriots it was one of a pair leased, only, to Mexicana, supplementing their fleet they bought new, which lasted for four years. BOAC probably thought they had seen the last of it but it came back at the very end of 1969, and was used as a ground trainer through to 1980, nicely in BOAC livery again. There's a well-known photo of it and a BOAC 747 nose-to-nose, for of course they were never in service together. It was subsequently given to the fire service. The last BOAC Comet flight was November 1965, it coincided with the opening of the new Auckland airport in New Zealand, where the old one had been able to handle Comets, just, but not 707s/DC8, and the Comet doubtless hung on. The last BOAC Britannia was a few months before; it was a time of change.

[GeeRam]

British South American Airways Lancastrian, to Buenos Aires. Captain was Don Bennett. 1 January 1946.


It was named Starlight.

And this is why the 'temporary/semi-permanent' office accommodation block (old T2 site offices) was named Starlight Point......although Covid situation has now resulted in this building being closed down last autumn and won't be re-opening.

[Ancient Observer]

I have an old rolled up 1975 1:50000 map of the area covering LHR. (Not the folded version)
A friend was clearing his office and I thought "That might be useful". No great projects emerged, so it has lived in my man cave for over 10 years.

It has close to zero value, and the postage might be expensive, as might be acquiring the tube for it, but if it is of value to anyone, do PM me.
AO

[PAXboy]

AO Perhaps consider a museum that covers the area, or civilian aviation?

[WHBM]

This film was shot in 1962 driving along the A4 road.

Journey Without Incident 1962 | bpvideolibrary (https://www.bpvideolibrary.com/record/762)

From the 6 minute mark, for about a minute, it is passing Heathrow Northside. The road diversion seen there is around the works for the bridge over M4 motorway spur.

[Nineiron]

I was based on the south side in the mid sixties.This was the original Harmondsworth Airport. The southern perimeter road from Hatton cross would take you past the Pan-Am base (best canteen on the airfield), the executive aircraft park, then what were known as the Comet hangars. Hunting Clan was based there, I remember the 'Clan' being painted out as it became the base for Fields, Shell Aircraft Ambassadors with Douglas Bader being a regular visitor as he kept his twin Beech in the hangar, One hangar was used as a freight shed for Seaboard & Western Airlines CL44 aircraft and another housed all the snow ploughs and runway clearing equipment. Fields often had aircraft for maintenance, the Syrian Arab DC6, Iraqi Viscounts and the Misrair Comet come to mind. Further round the peri track you would find the Air India base and the flashing beacon, which was a large cone of green flourescent tubes. There was a glue factory (hoof & horn) down that way and if the wind was right down the runway, everybody knew about it. Regarding the Northside, it became very congested and restrictions were made on Britannias using reverse pitch in the area. Although the Europa building was eventually finished the West London Air terminal at Brompton continued with check-in and the BEA half decker buses with their baggage trailers were a regular sight. Anybody remember collecting mushrooms off the airfield? The best ones were to be found near the runway holding points where the hot air would pass over the grass.

[chevvron]

Interesting to see the rail link from the Reading /Windsor to Waterloo line at Feltham which was never built but probably should have been - even today there is still a lot of open space between that line and southern LHR.


But there was a railway line there; single tracked splitting from the main Paddington - Slough line at Yiewsley. What it was used for I don't know but the tracks south of the old Bath Road (no longer the A4 as this designation was transferred to the Colnbrook bypass) were still down up until the '80s at least so probably just used for goods trains; I think it originally joined the line from Staines to Windsor and Eton Riverside just north of the Staines bypass near where 'PI crashed however I think the section of it south of Bath Road disappeared when the M25 was built and it looks as if it finishes at Poyle now in an industrial area just north of the old Bath Road .
There was also a huge marshalling yard on the south side of Hounslow Heath, just north of Hanworth aerodrome; you can still see traces of it on ZoomEarth..

[Fareastdriver]

I have an old rolled up 1975 1:50000 map of the area covering LHR.

Here is a 1959 1/10560.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/189258389

[GeeRam]

But there was a railway line there; single tracked splitting from the main Paddington - Slough line at Yiewsley. What it was used for I don't know but the tracks south of the old Bath Road (no longer the A4 as this designation was transferred to the Colnbrook bypass) were still down up until the '80s at least so probably just used for goods trains;

Line runs right under the M4/M25 junction from the GWR main line, and is still in use for the two concrete/aggregate works located in Thornley and Colnbrook. It was also heavily used for bring in materials and equipment to the purpose built logistics centre set up for building Terminal 5.

[treadigraph]

Yes, looking at the old maps it ran from West Drayton via Poyle and joined the Staines/Eton line just NW of Staines. Staines Station used to be Staines Junction and there was another Staines Station which was a branch terminus on the west side of the River Wraysbury. Ones lives and learns...

[Max Tow]

The rail line is perhaps visible in this photo (to a better trained eye than mine!)

https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW003344

[DaveReidUK]

Line runs right under the M4/M25 junction from the GWR main line, and is still in use for the two concrete/aggregate works located in Thornley and Colnbrook. It was also heavily used for bring in materials and equipment to the purpose built logistics centre set up for building Terminal 5.

Also used for offloading aviation fuel brought in by rail and then piped to the airport:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/333x551/bpa_colnbrook_dd6a4638242fdbf62040cb6fcb6676445fdea514.jpg

Operation, Maintenance and Management Services for the Colnbrook Rail Terminal and Colnbrook Pipeline - Oil and gas pipeline consultant (bpa.co.uk) (https://www.bpa.co.uk/portfolio-view/operation-maintenance-management-services-colnbrook-rail-terminal-colnbrook-pipeline/)

[WHBM]

The train line is a branch from the main line at West Drayton. It used to have a shuttle passenger train to Staines, using a separate unconnected station to the main one at Staines, which was given up in the early 1960s, but still has cargo trains as far as the several terminals in Colnbrook, for heavy building materials and jet fuel for the airport. These run as and when required, but there is one most weekdays and I've even seen two at once down at the end. The line runs right through the middle of the M25/M4 motorway junction at Heathrow, between the bottom level turning lanes, and a few years ago I had a train passing alongside there as I drove through from T5 back to London.

The oil depot (picture above) is not the mainstream supply to Heathrow, which comes by long-distance pipeline from the refinery, but is a very necessary reserve, still regularly used for a proportion of supply. When the Buncefield fuel storage depot exploded (10-15 years ago ?) it operated 24x7 keeping things going.

[treadigraph]

Buncefield was 15 years ago - time flies...

[GeeRam]

The oil depot (picture above) is not the mainstream supply to Heathrow, which comes by long-distance pipeline from the refinery

Via a new build (early 60's?) pipeline that connected up to the WW2 era GPSS and PLUTO fuel pipeline systems, one of the many immense wartime infrastructure projects undertaken in such a short period of time during the war, and which are still being used to this day to our benefit.

[chevvron]

The oil depot (picture above) is not the mainstream supply to Heathrow, which comes by long-distance pipeline from the refinery, but is a very necessary reserve, still regularly used for a proportion of supply. When the Buncefield fuel storage depot exploded (10-15 years ago ?) it operated 24x7 keeping things going.
The Fawley - Heathrow pipeline runs right past my front door at the moment but is scheduled to be re-laid about 200 yards away next year.

[Trinity 09L]

As described it currently ends facing south. However, the plans for R3 were that it arrives at a new siding facing west, for material (maybe fuel as well), carbon offset etc.
Pre Covid a new contract was signed between a rail freight operator and a fuel company (Kent coast), probably to feed T5 satellite (not T6).
Of course another new line via tunnel is proposed from GW line to T5, £1bn +. Both lines will impact on rail capacity, freight trains are slower.

[dixi188]

The new runway should be No. 8, as there have been 7 runways at Heathrow already.
Perhaps the fallout of applying for an 8th runway may not be very good.:)

[Kiltrash]

Ah Buncefield, about 6-8 miles away due South and happened to be looking out the widow to see the Weather for a Golf Game in Watford. Huge red mushroom cloud and the rumble about 30 seconds later...Radio report shortly afterwards advising M1 closed so cancelled Golf
Drove past next day still damping down
Seem to remember no one killed

[treadigraph]

No one killed thank God Kilty - I woke up around the same time that the explosion took place (early Sunday morning) and wondered if the bang had travelled 30 miles south and permeated my double glazing and slumbers... My colleagues had been working on the design for the rebuild when we folded - no reconstruction work visible on Google yet...

[chevvron]

No one killed thank God Kilty - I woke up around the same time that the explosion took place (early Sunday morning) and wondered if the bang had travelled 30 miles south and permeated my double glazing and slumbers... My colleagues had been working on the design for the rebuild when we folded - no reconstruction work visible on Google yet...
Our house near Woking shook badly at the right time so I'm guessing that was the shockwave so you would have felt it too..

[WHBM]

We heard it at Canary Wharf. Colleague in Rickmansworth had garage window broken. The Laing construction company, relevant to a Heathrow history thread as they built so much of it over time, had their offices directly facing the site, they had merged into Laing O'Rourke about three years beforehand and had just finished consolidating everyone elsewhere and the offices were just finally vacant weeks beforehand. They were completely destroyed. Talk about fortune.

[PAXboy]

This is main entry for Buncefield Depot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buncefield_oil_depot) with a link in there to the fire in December 2005. I was away that weekend but my housemate about 8.5 miles away was rudely awakened. It measured 2.4 Richter Scale!

The site opened on the edge of Hemel Hempstead but, as in all places, the new town expanded steadily. There were a number of large offices on the eastern side of the industrial estate and some were prefab, rather than brick. Mostly they were shredded. If it had not have been six in the morning the death toll would have been enormous. The Wikipedia page is fairly detailed and lists that the explosion was the usual Swiss Cheese of failed equipment and failure to maintain. The site operator was found liable.

On a business trip today, I made a drive by of the site. Still some old tanks that look like they are waiting for removal but lots of new ones. Also various excavations, bunds and ponds evidently to do with fire precautions. I'm not sure when the pipeline reopened.

[treadigraph]

My infrastructure engineering colleagues were working on the design of the bunds to contain spillage and so on. Actually, just looked at Google Earth rather than Google Maps so I could look at the site history and I see that while some of the storage tank area is still vacant, there are indeed new tanks in place on other parts which I thought were those left intact (or are they all to be replaced?). Also, remarkably or so it seems to me, part of the original tank farm is now a large Amazon distribution centre!

[Commander Taco]

This film was shot in 1962 driving along the A4 road.

Journey Without Incident 1962 | bpvideolibrary (https://www.bpvideolibrary.com/record/762)

From the 6 minute mark, for about a minute, it is passing Heathrow Northside. The road diversion seen there is around the works for the bridge over M4 motorway spur.

Is that perchance the Three Magpies at 6:40?

[PAXboy]

Thanks for the suggestion treadigraph, that is a very good view of Buncefield. You can see clearly where some buildings have not been replaced and, therefore, how close they were!

There is a cemetery nearby (800m or so) which was undamaged of itself but - due to the very strong intake of air at low level by the fire to feed itself - the wind had collected LOTS of rubbish, paper, take away food cartons from the neighbouring area and so on that then got caught in the flowers, trees and hedges. Took them a long time to clear it all and it demonstrated the power of the fire in a very different way.

[WHBM]

Is that perchance the Three Magpies at 6:40?
I think it must be. When did it come down ?

Notable also the 1930s housing on the opposite side of the road, all bought up and hotels put there.

[MarkB1]

I think it must be. When did it come down ?

Notable also the 1930s housing on the opposite side of the road, all bought up and hotels put there.

I think the Three Magpies is still there? I wonder what else survives that is visible. I notice on Google maps that a bit of Cains Lane can still be seen inside the airport. I think it used to go right across to the Bath Rd prior to 1946.

[DaveReidUK]

I think it must be. When did it come down ?

Methinks reports of the Three Magpies demise are greatly exaggerated.

Three Magpies pub in Heathrow | Greene King Local Pubs (greeneking-pubs.co.uk) (https://www.greeneking-pubs.co.uk/pubs/middlesex/three-magpies/)

[Commander Taco]

October 21 2019


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1111/24a55e8c_27f5_4b6f_8afe_bfb2e98c417b_ffcbaa419c8b5958831f447 a70269ff9bd4e19d7.jpeg

[akerosid]

Here's a good site, with some links to old LHR photos and charts (and indeed, many other UK and foreign airports and air bases):

https://atchistory.wordpress.com/2020/10/10/heathrow-atc/
https://atchistory.wordpress.com/2021/03/24/egll-heathrow-atc-part-2/
Here's some more old charts - not all LHR, but a good few, further down: https://atchistory.wordpress.com/2020/10/14/aerodrome-and-approach-charts/

I've been a visitor to LHR since the early 1990s and for all its faults (and a far, far better today than it was then), I've always loved the place. Was born in late 1960s, so missed the "golden" jet age.

My first flight as a pax through LHR was in March 1981, 40 years ago last week, flying to KWI on a KAC 747.

[pax britanica]

The West Drayton to Staines line terminated at Staines West station. The Station building in Staines is still there but was converted to a house many years ago, The line ran across the remote Stanwell Moor area with a station at Colnebrook and a wooden 'halt ' at Poyle which was basically a wooden platform and hut in the middle of the moor and which to my horror at the time was claimed to have been burned down by a friend of mine. Considering the number of rail lines around LHR it is incredible they took so long to build the Heathrow express line and even then failed to connect it to the Westward part of the GWR line whereby it could have gone on to Reading which must have the best connectivity to anywhere in UK . Basically the entire country except for East Anglia.

Cains Lane is still there as junction off the A30 , the turning after the now famous Myrtle Ave, I didn't know it origibnal went right across the airfield I just thought it was little residential road in Bedfont . I also dont know why back then, 1965 , no one spotted from Myrtle Ave .

To all intents and purposes LHR was my home town , I grew up and got married in Stanwell to a girl from Cranford who I met in Longford who worked for both BA short haul and long haul (back then moving from one to the other was basically seen as treachery) . My rather was BEA Ops my father in law BA Ground Ops , my wife BEA engineering secretary later Speedbird London HF-SSB operator . My best man BA cargo and I played footbal for two airprot teams ever though I never worked there. itwas different living there comapred to most places because certainly in Stanwell back then most people worked at LHR/LAP . When the Airways Housing trust or whatever it was called developed a large new estate based around Clare Road virtually evryone worked at LHR mostly of course for BEA/BOAC although there were some ministry people too. Of course all those shiny planes ,especially the early jets were a complete fascination with destinations that were far more exotic back then than in todays shrunken global world

Having moved to the west country i miss it for all sorts of reasons, down here an airliner is the silver dot at the end of a contrail

Sorry for the thread drift but like several this has been a real nostalgia thread for me

[canuck slf]

Great thread!
I used to be taken to LAP/LHR as a pre teen in the late 1950s before we left London in 1959.
Remember getting a bus tour of the "airside" the from newly opened Queens Building. I was really impressed when the bus came around a corner in the BOAC maintenance area and met a Brittannia, which promptly backed up to give the bus right of way.

Incidentally I just viewed LHR on Google Earth and was amazed to see that the latest photo has only one aircraft on the whole airport and that is the Concorde beside 27L, amazing and difficult to believe, as this includes the cargo and maintenance areas.

[goofer]

V H F SUPPLIES, I BELIEVE.

[DaveReidUK]

V H F SUPPLIES, I BELIEVE.

You believe correctly.

Yes, VHF Supplies at Noble Corner (opposite the Master Robert), run by the late Brian Tomkins who later traded as Collectors Aircraft Models.

[treadigraph]

Staines to West Drayton line - this new video just popped up...

https://youtu.be/dqvEaMpwFPw

[DaveReidUK]

Latest episode posted yesterday:

SpS3wPf0BXM

[ex82watcher]

Have only just looked at this thread,and haven't read it all,but thought I'd post these pic's of two items I recently found in a late friends effects,as they seem relevant.The first two are from a booklet ,1959,last four, 1962.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/img_20210417_190140_791d084b118aa89bea99b9336cdefd93fd0e3167 .jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/img_20210417_190258_8195e318f67e87a9e9bc4afdc836d5fbfba20153 .jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/img_20210417_190443_dfdcc9ddd90567ceb8adef1aab512ed6017b5b30 .jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/img_20210417_190507_c59ad4eee1a897adc1c7e051c142a642f5973739 .jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/img_20210417_190824_c7e96a9dd9ab9f75a39ba753bae390a52e4274bf .jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/img_20210417_190850_7898aa166491ad5df03df451cb86ae34a2fddcea .jpg

[dixi188]

I have one of those ESSO fold outs somewhere but not in such condition, it was on my bedroom wall as a kid.

[Asturias56]

"Considering the number of rail lines around LHR it is incredible they took so long to build the Heathrow express line and even then failed to connect it to the Westward part of the GWR line whereby it could have gone on to Reading which must have the best connectivity to anywhere in UK"

But remember by the time LHR started to really expand we were into Beeching era - railways were doomed........... everyone would go by car - hence the M4 right next to the airport. The idea of traveling by Tube to Heathrow was considered to be bizarre - no glamour at all .

Not building the link to Reading & the West was criminal - and selling the land off even more so - but it was probably to protect the vast profits being made by the Heathrow Express. Remember that the GWR stopping service wasn't even allowed to put "Heathrow" on the destination boards at Paddington to start with - they were officially only to W Drayton and then ran into the central area as a sort of hidden service to protect the revenue stream

[PAXboy]

Question about the Main Runway alignments. Given the steady movement of Magnetic North, what were they when first commissioned? Does anyone know/guess when the changes happened to reach their current designation? Lastly, when might we expect the next?
Cheers.

[DaveReidUK]

All of Heathrow's six runways (not including the original 16R/34L that was relocated to build the CTA) were redesignated at some stage during their lifetime.

While many people will remember when the current 09/27s were 10/28s (the most recent change), prior to that the 06/24s became 05/23s and the 16/34s became 15/33s (all subsequently closed). I don't have those dates to hand, but I probably have them kicking around somewhere.

Don't hold your breath for any more changes in the foreseeable future - the 09s are aligned at approximately 89.7° (true) and of course the 27s are on the reciprocal. But with magnetic variation currently about 0.4° E and an annual change of a measly 0.2° E per year, I don't expect I will ever see them becoming 08/26s (nor reverting to 10/28s) in my lifetime.

[PAXboy]

Thanks DRUK. Do you know when the 10/28s became 09/27?

[chevvron]

About 1971 or '72 I think.

[DaveReidUK]

Surprisingly, much later than that: 2nd July 1987.

Needless to say, it was a Thursday. :O

The 16/34s became 15/33s some time in 1952; I haven't unearthed the date yet for the 06/24s becoming 05/23s.

[PAXboy]

So, change them on a Thursday - in time for one of the busiest days of the week? Sounds like a good plan.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Surprisingly, much later than that: 2nd July 1987.
Needless to say, it was a Thursday. :O

I've got the date as 3rd. So was it done overnight from 2-3 with last 28s on 2nd and 1st 27s on 3rd?

[DaveReidUK]

Significant ATC changes are almost always on a Thursday: Aeronautical Information Regulation and Control (AIRAC) (icao.int) (https://www.icao.int/airnavigation/information-management/Pages/AIRAC.aspx)

I have no idea what time on the 2nd July it happened, but presumably it didn't involve movements having to observe a "Wet Paint" sign. :O

I've now narrowed down the date of the 06/24s -> 05/23s change to 1951 or earlier.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Being picky, but time of change is kinda what I am getting at. You reckon it was 2nd, I have the 3rd, so is it the case it changed at close of play on 2nd, before midnight. and so first movements would be on the morning of the 3rd? So changeover would be dated 2nd but nothing would have used either runway until the following morning?

[DaveReidUK]

No harm in being picky. :O

The change would have been promulgated in the AIP, and elsewhere, for the AIRAC cycle commencing on Thursday 2nd July 1987. Given Heathrow's operations, it would be reasonable to conclude that the necessary changes to the runway markings and taxiway signage were accomplished between the last movement on 1st July and the first on the 2nd.

There's a reference to the designation change in this thread: Heathrow runway change from 28L to 27L (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/326537-heathrow-runway-change-28l-27l.html), including a contribution from Heathrow Director, whom one would expect to know about such things, confirming the 2nd July date.