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islandguy
4th Mar 2021, 15:12
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1614874230_6b7b6cfa0f48b0456887472a83d25868bab4de28.jpeg

A Frontier passenger airplane nearly took off in Nashville with an ice-covered wing during last month's snow/ice storm, the airline confirmed to the Tennessean.

The plane had gone through de-icing from Trego-Dugan Aviation, but a flight attendant afterward noticed what appeared to be ice and snow mixed with de-icing fluid on one of the plane's wings, according to a tweet from an aviation watchdog Tuesday (https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1366851756634873858?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembe d%7Ctwterm%5E1366851756634873858%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpublish.twitter.com%2F%3Fquery%3Dhttps 3A2F2Ftwitter.com2FxJonNYC2Fstatus2F1366851756634873858widge t%3DTweet) that exposed the near tragedy.

The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating the incident, an agency spokeswoman confirmed Thursday morning in an email to the Tennessean.

Experts say ice on a plane (https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/why-its-so-critical-to-deice-planes-prior-to-takeoff/337056) can stop the plane's lift and can create other barriers to safe flying.

In an email to the Tennessean, Frontier confirmed "this incident did occur."



But Frontier would not say what date or time it happened or where the plane was going.

"Safety is our foremost priority and we are very proud of our flight crew for identifying the issue and ensuring the matter was addressed before takeoff," the statement said.

"We are no longer using the deicing company in question."

The de-icing company, the nationwide outfit Trego/Dugan Aviation, said in a statement to the Tennessean that "there was a breakdown in the detailed and vigorous de-icing process in Nashville."



"An aircraft that had remained overnight during the storm was not fully de-iced," the statement said. "TDA applauds the efforts of the Frontier flight crew for detecting the issue before initiating flight."

Frontier would not identify that flight attendant nor make him or her available for an interview.

A Nashville Airport Authority spokeswoman would not say how many airlines use Trego/Dugan Aviation for de-icing. The spokeswoman, Kym Gerlock, referred all questions about the incident to Frontier airlines, adding the authority only "provides the infrastructure for flying at Nashville International Airport."



Trego/Dugan said there were "rigorous re-training" sessions with all operators who de-ice planes at all of its stations.

"Nothing of this sort has happened in the past 50+ years and we have vigorously attacked the underlying circumstances to prevent anything like this in the future," the company said in its statement.


https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2021/03/04/flight-attendant-stops-nashville-frontier-plane-taking-off-icy-wing/6917907002/

Mostly Harmless
4th Mar 2021, 15:33
Sprayed Type IV without first removing the ice and snow with Type I?

ASRAAMTOO
4th Mar 2021, 19:16
I suspect that the deicing crews in Nashville get less practise than those in many other locations.

packapoo
4th Mar 2021, 20:28
Probably the case, just not the reason...

DaveReidUK
4th Mar 2021, 20:51
Or the reason, but not an excuse ...

Australopithecus
4th Mar 2021, 23:05
Isn’t there a requirement for a pilot or mechanic to visually inspect and confirm ice-free surfaces prior to taxi, or at least prior to take-off? Asking for my late colleagues killed on take-off in 1989 in an iced up F-28.

Check Airman
5th Mar 2021, 08:02
This is typically done by the deicing crew in the US. There are exceptions though.

Flightmech
5th Mar 2021, 09:18
2-step de-icing with the first step missed. Looks like they sprayed Type 4 straight onto a contaminated wing.

Pelican
5th Mar 2021, 09:22
Yeah, looks like Type V straight on contamination. This is a mistake. This can happen. What is unforgivable is that it wasn't flagged in the post application check.

And great job for the Flight Attendant for a) spotting it, and b) speaking up about it.

RetiredBA/BY
5th Mar 2021, 09:43
Yes but says little for the flight crew.

After deice and after inspecting the deicing certificate one pilot, and in my case it was always me, should ALWAYS check that the wing, stab and fin are completely clear of contamination. Each time , every time without exception.

Checkboard
5th Mar 2021, 10:42
That's just not practical in many cases. If you de-ice while taxiing out, for instance.

A0283
5th Mar 2021, 11:15
Icing has always been a risk of all times and all types of aircraft. It is a systemic issue that just like gravity demands awareness and attention.

If I take a database with 2200 cases dating from 1956 to 2021, there are at least 98 cases of all aircraft types where icing alone (not including snow/precipitation contamination cases) was a factor, in at least 42 cases icing was causal, in 35 cases there were fatalities, in 32 cases the aircraft was written off or destroyed, the number of killed/serious/light/uninjured 1800+/200+/100+/1600+ of 3700+ PoB,

My impression is that icing got more recognition in the 1940s... icing is mentioned in many cases during WW2... One early very good report (you could use it today and most would not recognize it as being written that long ago) dates from about the 1950s if I recall correctly, but I would have to check that. Report included a very good sketch of horn-type icing on wings and horizontal stabilizer by the incident's pilot.

The US system got a warning in for example 1982 with the Air Florida 737. The 1989 case pointed out a systemic failure of the Canadian aerospace system (crew, airline, regulations, knowledge,...) and not a specific aircraft,

lederhosen
5th Mar 2021, 12:26
Excellent contribution from the flight attendant! and this is an area where in my opinion things have definitely improved with people speaking out. I am a little intrigued by what RetiredBA/BY means. The concept that someone needs to confirm that the aircraft is clean is obvious. But does he mean the pilot personally? Most of the times I have deiced it was with engines running and I am unclear how you could personally check the fin and in most cases the stab. Going back to look at the wings in inclement conditions I have done regularly. But our manuals always made clear that we were delegating the inspection in most circumstances to the lead deicer. The deicing report is also verbal and then entered on the tech log. In this case there seems to have been a clear failure by the deicing crew.

Check Airman
5th Mar 2021, 13:25
RetiredBA/BY

Only in certain circumstances will the crew be required to visually check the wings. This situation is clearly an exception to that. How’d you go about checking the empennage?

FlyingStone
5th Mar 2021, 13:59
RetiredBA/BY

How do you check the stab and the fin after remote de-icing with engines running?

FlightDetent
5th Mar 2021, 14:08
Unless you're willing to put own age in the profile and it is within radio range from 76, perhaps a smaller calibre is more gentlemanly for the first round, gents. It may well be that during R.BA/BY active career such was the best practice and SOP, or self-preservation instinct alone. The industry develops...

IIRC there are some types where a tactile check is required before departure after deicing.
https://images.app.goo.gl/kiJbiuSZiArek8J18

For the record, I have never seen a requirement to physically leave the cockpit and go see the result post-spraying. Wrong, bad? No idea but also only 2 types on the logbooks.

n.b. The empennage pretty much flies on the angle of incidence or it could if needed. Dirty wing under EO not so much.

Pistonprop
5th Mar 2021, 14:37
Was it really noticed by the F/A? Or did a passenger draw attention to it from whereon the F/A informed the cockpit? I know that if I'd looked out the window to see that I would not have remained silent! Nevertheless, good that the F/A followed up.

Herod
5th Mar 2021, 15:04
Somebody (the airline?) getting their CRM right. The F/A felt able to tell the flight crew and, more importantly, the flight crew listened.

ASRAAMTOO
5th Mar 2021, 16:07
To be fair, Retired BA/BY led with the 105mm howitzer rather than the mini gun when he said this: "Yes but says little for the flight crew.".
There is a wealth of experience on this forum and when shared, we can learn through the benifits of others experience, without going through the pain ourselves.
BUT, aviation changes ( and I appreciate not always for the better) so I think it can be useful for those now detached from the industry to research current practice before pointing the 105 at their feet.

GlobalNav
5th Mar 2021, 16:11
Clearly this deicing failure should not have happened. But the discovery by the cabin crew, their ability to notify the flight crew and the consequent decisions saved us from a terrible outcome.

It also resulted in retraining of the deicing company employees, probably company-wide. There were clear deficiencies of knowledge and judgment that are being addressed and probably removed in some cases.

I would expect that every deicing vendor will take advantage of this event by giving extra emphasis on how to do the job right. This is embarrassing, yes, but it is a gift.

Likewise, I can imagine that cabin and flight crews of many operators have taken note of this event and it has reinforced training they received in the past.

May we give thanks to Providence that are not mourning for the loss of passengers and crew. Thank Him also that a gradual degradation of safety has at least for the moment been turned around.

JW411
5th Mar 2021, 17:01
I don't know what sort of aeroplane BA/BY has been flying but I simply cannot go along with his statement that "the wing, stab and fin are completely clear of contamination. Each time, every time without exception". Is he really telling me that every time I taxied my DC-10 through the de-icing rig at CDG I did this? Not once on a BAe146 did I ever get out, mount a 30 foot cherry-picker and check the upper surface of the stabiliser. There are times in aviation that you have to rely on others to have done their job.

RetiredBA/BY
5th Mar 2021, 17:04
ASRAAMTOO

Well, I have been retired for 24 years but flew jets for all of my 34 years of jet flying, since I was 18. I have never been deiced engines running, so I checked the wings, stab, and fin from pax and service doors of my 73/ 75/76 or whatever. Seen no reason why the wings, at least can’t be checked via the D. V windows or the pax windows.

Ice contamination is a potential killer , remember the Potomac, hence my extreme caution, for which I make no apology.

Perhaps the world has moved , but in this aspect Im not sure it has improved.

Denti
5th Mar 2021, 17:17
As others have mentioned, we always have to rely on others. Be it maintenance doing their job correctly (not all always do), be it cabin crew, or deicing crews. All of those are (hopefully) well trained professionals and we do have to rely on them. And yes, deicing with running engines, often right next to the runway, is nowadays the norm, has been for a long time in the area i operate in. Additionally, there is of course the thing with the holdover times, getting out of the plane, do a leisurely walk around, organizing stairs to the wing and stabilizer, climbing up there and check myself and then climbing back into the flightdeck, do the last bit of checklists and briefing and then the normal sequence would most likely violate the holdover times, especially in precipitation.

In this case i am very happy that a professional cabin crew and a professional flight deck worked as they should and assured a safe course of action.

Flying Clog
5th Mar 2021, 18:29
Retired BA/BY - you have no clue how things operate these days, so please refrain from positing nonsense if you don't mind.

Obviously, we all rely on engineers on the bay, and remote rigs with engines running to deice. We never, ever inspect the wings as pilots before take off. I have personally, as a 747 captain, never looked at a wing post deice. I just want to get to the bloody runway and get the show on the road.

Anyway, it'll all slide off before V1, so she'll be right!

FlightDetent
5th Mar 2021, 19:43
I second the agreement about the gameplay having changed procedure-wise. The trade-off between ability to check in person and being deiced while #2 for take off is an easy one.

Keeping a good flow of aircraft through the parking bays is helpful to everyone too, keeping the stress level low and having a beneficial effect on the safety margin in snowy precipitation.

The PAX / CC / FC team work had been praised deservedly above, so only one thing remains:

How much (little) do they pay the trucksmen, so they could not be bothered advising the job is not done. My fearestimate is that those were not trained hands who did (not do) the job.

RetiredBA/BY
5th Mar 2021, 20:01
Well, may be I don’t but I DO know how it was done in my day, kept me and my crew and pax. safe for all those years, so hardly nonsense, thank you.
I, too, wanted to get to the B runway, BUT with a clean wing !

Check Airman
6th Mar 2021, 08:20
Thanks for coming here and sharing the wisdom of your experience with us. Your method would indeed be ideal, but it’s either impractical, or impossible, given how I’ve seen airlines do it nowadays.

As an example, at my current airline, we deice with both engines running, and (usually) well away from the gate. If and when required, a crewmember will inspect the wing, but opening a door to inspect the tail is out of the question under normal circumstances.

mustafagander
6th Mar 2021, 08:33
CRM works.
Such a great outcome that the F/A felt comfortable to take it to the Cpt.

maxxer1977
6th Mar 2021, 09:57
Check Airman

As i remember they have to deice at a fixed place where they can recycle the stuff, seems glycol doesnt dissolve quickly.

ManaAdaSystem
6th Mar 2021, 10:31
I hazard a guess that our retired friend did not deice very often. The one time i deiced in LHR it was done at the gate, and it would have been possible to open the door/window and have a look. If I wanted to.
The last time I went to work was a four sector day and I deiced on three of them. Engines running. No way I can open doors or have time to enter the cabin to check the wings.
That is what a HOT is for.

RetiredBA/BY
6th Mar 2021, 11:58
Yes, I am retired (how did you guess ?) However, I respectfully suggest you guys read the Boeing winter ops. procedures, the requirements of the FAA , CAA, EASA, and Transport Canada. So far as I can see they are not type specific.They all relate to the “clean” concept. Except, of course for frost under the wing tank surface due cold fuel.
Then go and read the accident reports of : AF 90
SAS 751,
China Eastern 5210
Arrow 1285
Air Ontario 1363
US 405


All very sobering and all relate to improper deicing procedures, and reflect on what might have happened to that flight, if the ice had not been seen by the cabin attendant as say, at night !

...and if the cabin crew could see out of a cabin window, why could’nt the captain take a look himself ?

Coffee finished !

You might learn something.

FlyingStone
6th Mar 2021, 12:06
Nobody here is contradicting the clean wing concept, just the fact that pilot inspecting all surfaces post de-icing is just not something that can realistically be done in many situations.

HOT can be sometimes as short as 10 or 15 minutes, depending on the conditions. If you can tell me how it is possible for a pilot to inspect all de-iced surfaces after de/anti-icing has been completed and still depart within the HOT period, I would be more than happy to learn something new.

Denti
6th Mar 2021, 12:09
I had the „pleasure“ once being advised by a colleague in the cabin from another airline and rated for a different type that we were not allowed to take off as we had cold soaked fuel frost on the wings, while already being cleared for takeoff. After a short chat with the Senior Cabin Crew and on her advise, we taxied back de iced, right at the runway of course and with engines running, and went on our way. After the flight we asked him into the flight deck and kindly explained that cold soaked fuel frost in certain limits (black lines on the wing) is actually allowed on this type.

Knowing a little can both be costly and ultimately dangerous.

Kirks gusset
6th Mar 2021, 12:24
The airport has a legal obligation to ensure de-icing contractors are familiar with both the rules and specifics for individual types, having said that, commercial pressures, boredom and being human means mistakes are made. but the ultimate responsibility for ensuring the aircraft is fit to fly is with the Captain.
Cabin crew are usually briefed in cold weather ops and in fact encouraged to look out of the windows, the wing inspection lights are not just ornaments.
Flight deck to ground ops and cabin communications should be sufficient to cover most scenarios, of course you cannot plan for them squirting guilds where they are not meant too. e.g 737 horizontal stabiliser tracks.
It is not practical for the Flight crew to physically inspect post de-icing, unless it was done on the ramp before boarding and there are no HOT issues, having said that it is again usually not practical as pax marching through dripping fluid and contaminating the interior and steps is a bigger problem.
De-icing with engines running, or one running is not uncommon is packs are off and the crew make an had about the blasting going on outside,
This event merely shows the system "works" and cabin crew suggestions should be encouraged, of course, we've all had the "know it all" pax in the cabin, "difficult decisions are the privilege of rank"

safetypee
6th Mar 2021, 13:00
Flying Clog ‘Anyway, it'll all slide off before V1, so she'll be right!’
If thats for real; … or even making an erroneous statement, which could mislead others, you should first reconsider other cultures, language, or humour in this forum.

The properties of deicing fluid affect the amount of fluid which remains on the wing.
A Boeing study many years ago (737 re T1 and T2 fluids), suggested that more than the assumed 6% of deicing fluid remained on the wing. However, there was a reassuring statement that the climb performance was not affected, but no proof given.

Following initial difficulties with T4 (dry-out, gel, refreezing), several manufacturers flight tested the residual effects of T4; significant amounts of fluid remained on the wing. I cannot recall if any aircraft had revised performance data for use after deicing, but some required special procedures and restricted configurations, trim settings.
‘… these new fluids were sub-misted for aerodynamic acceptance and holdover time testing, it became apparent that the differences among Type IV fluids were greater than those among Type II fluids. Experience with Type IV fluids also showed that some fluids had unacceptable dryout characteristics.’

We cannot judge how a residual mix of fluid and contaminant will behave during takeoff; see refs below re dilution. A worst case is partial melting and refreezing of the lower levels of contaminant on a cold wing - solid ice.

Flow off characteristics Fig 4, 25% pass/fail boundary.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_08/deice.pdf

Fluid characteristics, page 72 -
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/3404.pdf

Info;
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_1_07/AERO_Q107_article3.pdf

Big Pistons Forever
6th Mar 2021, 16:15
The bottom line is the deice crew told the captain that the aircraft wing was clean, when in fact it had a foot of snow on it. The FA action prevented an accident but she was the final link in the safety chain.

This in IMO, is criminal negligence on the part of the deice lead

Check Airman
6th Mar 2021, 16:17
maxxer1977

Here in the US, it varies quite a bit. Some airports, you’ll be sprayed at the gate, others, at the runway. I don’t recall where it’s done in Nashville.

Marius_S
6th Mar 2021, 22:42
safetypee

Without having de-iced in the US, it seems like Type IV fluid is more common there than Type II. I don't have any experience with Type IV, but from reading up on it, it does provide a longer HOT. In Norway, where I do 99% + of my flying, the only types used are I and II, and I've never had any issue with HOT. Is the reason it's used longer taxi times from the de-ice pad to the runway compared to other places?

Uplinker
7th Mar 2021, 11:11
There have been some really awful avoidable crashes owing to airframe icing.

The manuals talk about the importance of a proper inspection of the aircraft's surfaces, yet in my experience there were never steps provided on the ramp during icing conditions, with which to check the upper wing surfaces. One had to do a visual check from an aircraft doorway, or ask to go up the refueller's steps, (which were never quite high enough to reach the upper wing surface).

I never got a satisfactory answer about whether the de-ice crews understood that, while the tops of the wings must be clear, the bottom of the THS is the important surface to be sprayed since it operates "upside down".

OMA specifies the need for a pre-take-off contamination check, Opening the locked cockpit door to check through the cabin windows with the engines running has security risks. DV windows, wing lights, and the difficulty of checking wings at night or in LVPs is not very satisfactory.

So we are left with the poor sod(s) freezing his nuts off on the de-icing rig; on his 12th aircraft on the ramp or through the de-icing bay in steadily worsening conditions. Is he able to give a truly objective report, and did he do all the wings, or did he miss one out? Is his eyesight annually tested?

ICEHOUSES
7th Mar 2021, 12:21
Here in Europe as I imagine the USA most deicing operations are carried out by third party handling agents, most employees are payed just above the minimum wage, many been furloughed for months, many with no job security, high turnover of staff, handling agents making a big loss due covid. Im not questioning their training but maybe the post deicing check should be carried out by engineers in these current times or at least the regulators need to inspect the handling agents ability to de-ice.

aterpster
7th Mar 2021, 12:24
Nobody here is contradicting the clean wing concept, just the fact that pilot inspecting all surfaces post de-icing is just not something that can realistically be done in many situations.

HOT can be sometimes as short as 10 or 15 minutes, depending on the conditions. If you can tell me how it is possible for a pilot to inspect all de-iced surfaces after de/anti-icing has been completed and still depart within the HOT period, I would be more than happy to learn something new.
Just the wings. The FO could easily do that. If the wings are clean, then trust is reasonable for the other areas.

Herod
7th Mar 2021, 12:35
Turbo-props also need de-icing. How do you, as crew, check the upper surface of a high-wing aircraft?

Lake1952
7th Mar 2021, 12:50
Anyone remember the saga of IB 6166 BOS-MAD A340 DEC 2, 2007. Several professional airline crews pointed out to the taxiing IB crew that in their opinion, the aircraft had contaminated wings that required deicing. Tower controllers politely pointed out several times that every other airplane in the takeoff queue had undergone deicing. But the crew dug in their heels and refused to reconsider. Did the crew ever have any repercussions from their potentially hazardous decision, or did the fact that no accident occurred make it moot?

604guy
12th Mar 2021, 20:38
check the upper surface of a high-wing aircraft

Typically a "representative" surface. Often pop the spoilers, which would be painted a contrasting colour, and which would be visible from the pointy end.

John Marsh
13th Mar 2021, 04:08
Lake1952

As SLF, I would respectfully suggest that their decision was hazardous regardless of the outcome. They 'got lucky'.

I suspect that the flight crew in question never realised how fortunate they and their passengers were that day. Consequently, their successful takeoff from Boston would have served to reinforce their unsafe attitude to de-icing.

Gizm0
13th Mar 2021, 09:57
Certainly good CRM and all kudos to the cabin crew. But surely this should go without saying - at least in those airlines where all staff (ground or air) are respected for the job they do.
Certainly in my flying days I expressly said to the entire crew during the pre-flight brief that they were expected to bring any concerns (even those from pax) to my attention - without any fear at all of me being dismissive. This was particularly & specifically emphasised during ops where de-ice was expected / a possibility. It was part of my job & responsibilities. Don't all airline Captains do this still? If the upcoming professional flight crews don't have a similar, personal, policy then they should! Learn something from us old dinosaurs.
Also HOT can be extremely brief - especially so in freezing rain! It would be impossible as well as impractical for a pilot to visually check all flying surfaces. Leaning out of open doors to inspect a tail surface would also be personally very hazardous - not to mention alarming the pax! Daft & dangerous. And sooner or later someone would blow a chute......

Lake1952
13th Mar 2021, 12:33
John Marsh

Back to IB in Boston... wouldn't you think that after several other crews and the tower controllers politely pointed out that deicing was a good idea on a recorded frequency, the IB captain would have felt that he was "painted into a corner " and had no choice but to accede to the suggestions.

HURZ
13th Mar 2021, 13:25
Which airplane type would this be being good to go with frost on the upper wing surface?
Any references from the manufacturer or Flt Ops Manual would be interesting.

Denti
13th Mar 2021, 13:42
Boeing 737NG. Widely available in the FCOM, however, separate approval by the relevant authority is needed.

Takeoff with light coatings of cold-soaked fuel frost on upper wing surfaces is allowable, provided
the following conditions are met:
• the frost on the upper surface is less than 1/16 inch (1.5 mm) in thickness
• the extent of the frost is similar on both wings
• the frost is on or between the black lines defining the allowable cold-soaked fuel frost area (see figure) with no ice or frost on the leading edges or control surfaces
• the ambient air temperature is above freezing (0C, 32F)
• there is no precipitation or visible moisture (rain, snow, drizzle or fog with less than 1 mile visibility, etc.)

HURZ
13th Mar 2021, 14:04
I Ford,
Same on the 747.

Denti
13th Mar 2021, 14:33
Yep, the same paragraph is in the 737NG FCOM as well, in supplementary procedures as well. However, the above paragraph is in the normal procedures for those airplanes that have been approved for that operation.

It was developed by Boeing under considerable pressure, after the launch customer (TUI and Air Berlin) discovered that they could not use the 737NG at all on any operation to the canary islands and similar destinations, as they would develop cold soaked fuel frost on the wing which could persist for hours and would have required complete defueling and refueling with warm fuel. No de-icing equipment is available at those airports. I believe the same problem existed for north american operation to the caribbean.

FlyingStone
13th Mar 2021, 14:59
Denti, not sure how old is your FCOM/AFM, but ours has been showing for at least couple of years now that OAT has to be 4C or more and fuel tank temperature -16C or more, in order for the relief to be valid.

ManaAdaSystem
13th Mar 2021, 15:16
The 320 also suffer from a cold spot on the wing. No go without deicing. Funny is, you can fly and land with this ice/frost, but not take off.
I belive there is pressure on Airbus to allow this ice in the same way Boeing does on the 737.

ManaAdaSystem
13th Mar 2021, 15:18
FlyingStone

Yes, terms and conditions apply. Above 4 degrees and no precipitation are two of them.

Denti
13th Mar 2021, 15:34
FlyingStone

Yes, it is a few years old, so thanks for that update on the conditions.

Was just showing that it is quite easy to mistake procedures for the aircraft one is rated on for those one is not rated on or has no experience with. On my current type it is a very clear clean wing rule (upper side, normal stuff lower side) and of course i do follow that.

John Marsh
13th Mar 2021, 18:50
Lake1952

I'd like to think so. Perhaps the 'doubling down' mindset came into play. Or face-saving. I know de-icing isn't cheap, but surely cost wouldn't be a factor? Concern about the delay is no excuse either. There is no excuse.

White Knight
14th Mar 2021, 03:39
Although of course, in the Air Florida accident into the Potomac, a very big factor was the EAI being OFF and the take-off being attempted with very reduced thrust because of that!

'Make it Clean and Keep it Clean'

Sailvi767
14th Mar 2021, 13:02
Keep in mind that this was a self proclaimed Ultra low cost airline that contracted with the lowest bottom feeding support companies for ground servicing. The company in question is used almost exclusively by low cost airlines. It’s employee turnover rate is weeks not months but you do get the lowest bid!

hoistop
2nd Jun 2021, 14:26
Sorry to interrupt, but AF 90 (Potomac) was not related to faulty deicing by airport workers. The issue was with the crew omitting engine anti-ice switch, that resulted in erroneous EPR reading (too high) due to ice-blocked P2 Pitot tubes.

grizzled
6th Jun 2021, 02:11
Your comment is incorrect hoistop; faulty de-icing was indeed a contributing factor. Read the report.

dingy737
6th Jun 2021, 13:56
The two sides of the plane were de-iced with different de-icing mixture percentages. And the mixture dispensed was different from what it was labelled (18 per cent actual vs. 30 per cent selected).

The operators of the de-icing mixture had no way of knowing the accuracy of the fluid being dispensed as an incorrect nozzle was installed, one without a "mix monitor."

canyonblue737
29th Dec 2021, 00:52
ASRAAMTOO

Well, I have been retired for 24 years but flew jets for all of my 34 years of jet flying, since I was 18. I have never been deiced engines running, so I checked the wings, stab, and fin from pax and service doors of my 73/ 75/76 or whatever. Seen no reason why the wings, at least cant be checked via the D. V windows or the pax windows.

Ice contamination is a potential killer , remember the Potomac, hence my extreme caution, for which I make no apology.

Perhaps the world has moved , but in this aspect Im not sure it has improved.

That simply isn't done today, at nearly any carrier. 75% of deicing tends to be engines RUNNING now, and either way there are very limited circumstances where cabin checks are made, typically involving very heavy ongoing preciption that is likely to overcome the deicing on the way to the runway. I'm glad you did it your way, but that is NOT the way it has been done in my 25+ year career.

ACMS
29th Dec 2021, 06:09
This is what is in my last Airlines Ops manual.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1141x1160/00e1c632_c15e_45a4_b4e0_f89625548008_93d6b81ebfd8db59dc9b990 047a5a8e9e620a9ad.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1022x213/fb8e11dd_001f_4189_bd7c_586bd40cb884_01ca07c17ef817756c7e610 70b638f882cc8f191.jpeg

givemewings
29th Dec 2021, 10:49
Was it really noticed by the F/A? Or did a passenger draw attention to it from whereon the F/A informed the cockpit? I know that if I'd looked out the window to see that I would not have remained silent! Nevertheless, good that the F/A followed up.

Can't speak for all of them but it was my regular practice to do a side to side visual sweep of the cabin (including out the windows) as a sort of double cabin secure)check on my way to my jumpseat.

When seated forward, it was particularly effective at catching out the wiseass pax who thought they could get our their bags/laptops after I'd done the cabin check.

Twice during such I noticed issues, once what appeared to be a fuel leak and the second what looked to me "not right" after de ice
I'm sure many of my colleagues do the same as a standard practice

ACMS
30th Dec 2021, 07:21
Why don’t you all just follow your company Standard procedures with respect to pre takeoff…….worked for me.

blind pew
31st Dec 2021, 08:24
My outfit had them installed onto the inboard top of the wing so that we could inspect them through the cabin windows which were especially handy for clear ice.
I was sent forward whilst dead heading by my skipper between GVA and ZRH on a North African carrier as he had spotted a sheet of clear ice caused by cold soaked fuel with relatively high humidity and temperatures in double figures; it had been missed by our engineers.
We had a German skipper imprisoned in Anchorage after he climbed onto the wing of a local carrier after the crew refused to de-ice the aircraft that was covered in dry snow.
My next trip there I witnessed one of their aircraft disappear in a cloud of snow as it rotated and the airflow change dislodged the snow on their wings. Normal ops dont clear dry snow. Never flown with them nor will.
Only ever had one disagreement after we had passed hold over times with a skipper who was a big cheese in the military and refused to return, I re checked the wings and decided that it was time to threaten standing on the brakes time but ATC closed the airport before we were cleared to line up.

HOVIS
31st Dec 2021, 09:28
Boeing 737NG. Widely available in the FCOM, however, separate approval by the relevant authority is needed.

Takeoff with light coatings of cold-soaked fuel frost on upper wing surfaces is allowable, provided
the following conditions are met:
the frost on the upper surface is less than 1/16 inch (1.5 mm) in thickness
the extent of the frost is similar on both wings
the frost is on or between the black lines defining the allowable cold-soaked fuel frost area (see figure) with no ice or frost on the leading edges or control surfaces
the ambient air temperature is above freezing (0C, 32F)
there is no precipitation or visible moisture (rain, snow, drizzle or fog with less than 1 mile visibility, etc.)
I remember having this discussion with a South European airline captain, he insisted de-icing was not necessary. We deiced anyway, pointing out the the UKCAA had not approved the procedure. This was well over 20 years ago so I've no idea if it was subsequently approved by EASA.

RatherBeFlying
31st Dec 2021, 16:41
As pointed out, a cold soaked airframe just down from FL350 can develop frost over the fuel tanks in clear air. And fine drizzle can also get stuck all over a cold airframe.

There's three temperatures to keep in mind: Air, airframe (especially over tanks), precip.

Operators in Alaska have figured out that dry snow on a cold airframe doesn't stick. But watch out for an airframe just pulled out from a cozy warm hangar with snow coming down.

Airbus and Boeing publish guidance for frost over fuel tanks on various aircraft. The performance degradation has been found acceptable in these cases. We should also remember that certain deice fluids also come with a performance penalty.

blind pew
31st Dec 2021, 19:04
Maybe but you don't know until you rotate..the skipper concerned was a German 104 starfighter guy trained up by the US of A..his group were the best lot I flew with. After he was arrested they de iced..
There was a lot of odd ball flying out of ANC that I witnessed including a couple of sheets of ply strapped to the side of a Cub on floats.
Place full of fugitives from the lower 48 which made it interesting.

Zeus
5th Jan 2022, 18:01
I often had problems getting de-iced at an airport close to New York where anything could happen during de-icing and often did. Procedures were rarely followed.
On one of the flights a cabin crew member called on the interphone and asked if de-icing was finished. It was just that she said she could still see snow and ice on the wing. The FO promptly said they would double check and headed down in to the cabin. Yes, there was snow and ice on the wing. So I asked to be de-iced again.
After that was finished I went down to check. The contamination remained. This resulted in a further request to be de-iced. This time I stood by the overwing exit to watch the de-icing. We finally taxied with a clean wing after a considerable delay.
My wife was on board and had witnessed the whole thing. She began to realise that some of the "horror stories" I had told her had some basis in fact.
We lived to tell the tale!

Excellent CRM from the cabin crew member! I wrote to her line manager commending her for her actions.

Chiefttp
10th Jan 2022, 23:24
In cargo ops you can’t physically view the wing from inside the aircraft..757/767 dedicated freighters.

Super VC-10
11th Jan 2022, 18:47
Anyway, it'll all slide off before V1, so she'll be right!

And when it does come off, and goes straight in the engines...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines_System_Flight_751

hans brinker
12th Jan 2022, 03:35
And when it does come off, and goes straight in the engines...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines_System_Flight_751

not very likely on a 320

condor17
22nd Jan 2022, 18:49
Like BA/BY , had a lifetime airline LH and SH and retired 12 yrs . Airline practices have changed over time .
Seem to remember CDG was 1st in centralised deicing . The new Munich followed , all seemed efficient , and did not inspect from inside post deice ..taxi on to the Rwy and go . LHR always on the gate , and in olden days 7000L was used on LH 707 trying to de snow , de ice this Boeing block of ice . Us on SH were out on the wing with a broom and wellies ... de snowing before being de iced .. SH V. hot on deice post '58 Munich with Man U. 'Busby's babes' disaster on an Elisebethan .
Iberia cavalier , as on several occaisons , I've seen them taxying out with V heavy frost on wing . We would have deiced .. told them on radio , but they just blasted off. Embedded in Spanish culture perhaps , as MAD in heavy cold rain on cold soaked '75 . I as SFO asked for cherry picker so could check wing top for glaze ice , Capt was asked to confirm my request before action occured . Manyana was not in it to get deiced , included towing to eng. base , neither he nor I were best pleased .
SVO when our station eng. withdrawn , locals then checked deicing ... luckily one of the 'gurls was dating an F/O .. 1 wing deiced , the other Not .. back to stand and station eng. posted back .
2 more tales , fog closed Bangalore whilst on descent . Off to Madras before that shut with a supertanker load of gas on board . Hot moist on V cold wing.....
Us '' Deice please ''...
Ground Eng. '' Wait until the sun comes up and melts it '' !
Us , '' Ohh ! Ok ''
Gas 'n Go in Gander , January snow storm ,,, luckily a Tristar so Flt Eng. did outside chk. V cold , V dry snow , none of it sticking , so for 1st and last time . N need to deice .
Now ... still deicing PA28 'Cherrytrees 30 mins after sunrise for a days 'destructing .

Be aware , be suspicious and assume nothing when it comes to de-icing , it's your lives not the ground guys .

rgds condor .