R44 200ftAGL engine out Autorotation video

[Agile]

Would have been better if he had gained altitude faster sooner, is 100ft a minute all you can do on take off?
my instructor used to say, always use 100% power and get away from the ground as fast as possible.
that video makes the point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYBf3XPwvaU

[Robbiee]

Its a hog hunt, so I doubt he was planning on going much higher,..from what I've seen of other hog hunt videos.

Funny thing, some of people on other forums think he had the mags off, if that's even possible?

[gulliBell]

For the life of me I don't know why you'd do the take-off roll and initial transition over dirt when only just outside the left door you have a perfectly flat level hard 3000+ foot long taxiway. Considering he had very little RRPM at the start of the "flare" it's surprising they didn't hit the ground harder than they did. They'll be able to fix that one.

[megan]

Funny thing, some of people on other forums think he had the mags off, if that's even possible?We had an article in one of our regulators crash comics explaining that an engine failure in a Cherokee was because the battery went flat, thus depriving the mags of a source of electrons. Gotta be careful corralling those electrons.

[Agile]

Funny thing, some of people on other forums think he had the mags off, if that's even possible?
there are two types of panel magneto key indicators for the R44 it seems:

the first design: start at 10 o clock (off) and goes to 1 o clock (2 mag)
the second design: that start at 1 o clock (off) and goes to 4 oclock (2 mag)

the video shows the key at 1 o clock in flight but the panel has the graphics of the second design, that would lead you to believe the mags are off.

[SpamCanDriver]

there are two types of panel magneto key indicators for the R44 it seems:

the first design: start at 10 o clock (off) and goes to 1 o clock (2 mag)
the second design: that start at 1 o clock (off) and goes to 4 oclock (2 mag)

the video shows the key at 1 o clock in flight but the panel has the graphics of the second design, that would lead you to believe the mags are off.
interestingly post crash when he goes to shut off the mags, looks like the key doesn't actually turn. So you might be right

[teej013]

Some observation from the video as posted.
00.07 Pre Take Off, key at 1 O'Clock.
00.34 Take Off Roll, key still at 1 O'Clock.
01.53 Post Arrival, key still at 1 O'Clock.
02.01 Shut Down, key turned to 12 O'Clock.
02.06 Post Shut Down, key now at 12 O'Clock.

Regards climb out, with 3 up plus kit in an R44, he will probably require airspeed to climb ?

IMO, all PoB handled things well.
Respects to all...

[[email protected]]

If it is an engine failure - why is the MAP gauge, which showed about 24 on take off, still indicating above 25 during the EOL? It's a long time since I had anything to do with pistons, so I might be missing something obvious.

[gulliBell]

I'm 30 year rusty on pistons also, but isn't there something called a magneto check as part of the after start checklist? If you do that check as called for I'd find it difficult to believe the magneto switch was not in the both position at take-off. Also, the VHF radio came to the party pretty late so I'm wondering how abbreviated the pre-take off checklist was. I bet he wished his initial climb was at 500+ fpm, give him a few extra hundred feet and time to do some pilot stuff, such as a restart attempt, warn the passengers, etc.

[ShyTorque]

Crab, If the engine isn’t going round and not sucking out the manifold, the atmosphere wins and refills it

[helimutt]

From the video, which I only just saw last night on youtube and before i logged in here, it appears his magneto key is in the 2 o'clock position which indicates one mag in use. I know some have said it looks like mags are off but that would mean it hadn't fully sat in the first mag position and then dropped back to a full magneto off position. Possibly after take off it vibrated back? If you listen to the video it also sounds like its only running on one magneto when on the ground before take off. He flicks the key fob out of the way just before he pulls the mixture knob after he's crash landed. (at that moment im also sure he realises his mistake) If you look at the position of that tablet at his left knee, from where he's sitting he won't see the magneto key position in flight. I'm pretty certain this video is going to cause him problems when he goes to claim on his insurance. The insurer will surely state he failed to fly in accordance with the RFM. Pilot error. Oh dear.
As for the MAP gauge going to 25"+ when the engine fails, thats what you'd expect to see.

[helimutt]

I'm 30 year rusty on pistons also, but isn't there something called a magneto check as part of the after start checklist? If you do that check as called for I'd find it difficult to believe the magneto switch was not in the both position at take-off. Also, the VHF radio came to the party pretty late so I'm wondering how abbreviated the pre-take off checklist was. I bet he wished his initial climb was at 500+ fpm, give him a few extra hundred feet and time to do some pilot stuff, such as a restart attempt, warn the passengers, etc.

No way would you attempt a restart in an R44 at anything below 1000' after the engine quits. More height would have given him a better auto option and he would probably have even been able to auto safely from 500' and realise the error of his ways and restart and go on his way. Instead it appears ( I am only going from what I can see and my R44 flying experience) he has written off a perfectly serviceable machine because the mag switch wasn't on both.

[gulliBell]

...The insurer will surely state he failed to fly in accordance with the RFM. Pilot error. Oh dear..
I'm not sure that pilot error would be reason for an insurer not to pay. Much in the same way an insurer would pay out a car wreck even if speeding. Plenty of plane wrecks the pilot has not followed the RFM in some way but the insurance still pays out. Nothing I see in the video there to be of concern to a loss adjuster. Maybe some retraining required, but as others have suggested the pilot probably worked out his error without needing it pointed out to him. The owner of the wrecked helicopter is sure not gonna be happy about it. But, they all got to walk away unscathed and live to fly another day.

[212man]

If it is an engine failure - why is the MAP gauge, which showed about 24 on take off, still indicating above 25 during the EOL? It's a long time since I had anything to do with pistons, so I might be missing something obvious.
MAP reads ambient pressure when the engine is not running......

[idle stop]

I think he had both mags on. Having suffered a single mag failure in a R22 at about 400 ft in the climb, the MAP dropped considerably IIRC.
Two interesting points....instrument panel shows Canadian Reg, tail pylon is 'N' reg.
EOL technique.....??? Note that early on the IAS drops off the clock...suggests way out of balance? Having had about 70 KIAS at the point of failure, there's apparently no flare, and the RRPM warning horn is on way before touchdown; you see the RRPM dropping through 50% odd well before touchdown. A lucky escape for POB.
Wonderful obscuration of Field of View, and possibly the instrument panel by the top tablet device.

[[email protected]]

Shy, helimutt and 212man - thank you - I told you I was rusty on pistons:ok:

[aa777888]

Not sure how many R44 Raven II pilots are on this thread, but I own and fly one. This is a very interesting incident. As others have alluded to variously above, and with the standard "interweb accident investigator" :} disclaimer:

- Robinsons do not fly well on one mag, it's pretty obvious when picking up with only one mag running. The audio and instrument readings imply normal operation of two mag's.
- The engine completely and dramatically stops at 1:25 in the video, engine RPM is zero. If it is a mag related problem then that's both mag's going offline.
- The video evidence shows the key in either the OFF or R position. The OFF position presents a much simpler set of mag related failure modes.
- Failure modes: this suggests an intermittent ground to the ignition switch, or an intermittent ignition switch. Either of those failures could account for two, simultaneous P-lead failures (open P-lead on both mag's). So it was intermittent open during the pre-takeoff mag checks, then it became intermittent closed with the switch in the OFF position in flight, killing both mags and thus the engine.
- When diagnosing an open or intermittent P-lead during pre-takeoff mag checks, the double-check test is to turn the key to OFF and if things keep running there's definitely at least one open P-lead circuit, thus confirming a lack of RPM drop when one or the other mag is selected.
- If the switch was in the R position, that would mean the left mag P-lead was open, if one agrees that all other indications (audio, instrumentation) demonstrate that both mag's are running. However that implies an even more complex and less likely failure mode in the wiring or ignition switch.

Silly, wild internet accident investigator guess: pilot does his mag checks and finds both P-leads are functionally failed open, i.e. observes no RPM drop in either the L or R position, checks it in the OFF position and it all keeps running. At this point becomes so non-plussed by this quite unusual circumstance, i.e. he thinks "Both P-leads? No way!", and/or distracted by passengers/whatever, that he leaves the key in the OFF position and ultimately departs.

Unfortunately, there is nothing in the FAA system (https://www.asias.faa.gov/apex/f?p=100:12:::NO:::) I can find on this event.

[John R81]

That was my take also. The mags run with the engine unless grounded, so "off" grounds-out both mgs and L / R ground only one. With the key in the "Off" position both mags should be grounded and engine stops / cannot start, but the key position does not change throughout the video (no idea whatchecks he did). So this looks like an intermittent fail in the mag grounding which allowed engine run, lift , transition and a little height before the circuit came good and failed both mags at the same time - so engine off. Possbly this fault has been around for a while, because personally if I found that the grounding of L & R in the start checks had no effect, and this was different from last flight, I would not be taking that ship anywhere - just call maintenance.

No chance of a restart at that height, so good work to get back to the ground without too much damage, and no injuries.

[gulliBell]

Does the after-start magneto check require the pilot to observe an ERPM drop, and if no such drop is observed the aircraft is unserviceable and requires maintenance prior to the next flight?

[212man]

For some reason I can't upload images (never gets past 90%), but a quick search shows this being the configuration described - and visible in the video.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heliflieger.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F07%2Fhubschrauber-rundflug-flugschule-fliegen-3.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.heliflieger.com%2Fen%2Ftoday-neither-round-flights-if-the-magnetic-check-reports-an-error%2F&tbnid=glwodY4DFSEwCM&vet=12ahUKEwjmlIGI4ZbvAhVD2KQKHbc5AlAQMygAegQIARAy..i&docid=IxNODx4Zcz0BOM&w=483&h=400&q=R44%20magnetoes%20switch&ved=2ahUKEwjmlIGI4ZbvAhVD2KQKHbc5AlAQMygAegQIARAy

It is clear that the switch is at best 'R' and more likely 'OFF', and he certainly doesn't seem to rotate it during the shutdown.

[aa777888]

Does the after-start magneto check require the pilot to observe an ERPM drop, and if no such drop is observed the aircraft is unserviceable and requires maintenance prior to the next flight?
Yes, that is exactly correct.

The procedure is to set 75% engine RPM, then from the BOTH position, select L, then BOTH, then R, then BOTH (or you can do R first, etc.). The checklist says "Mag Drop at 75% RPM...7% max. in 2 seconds", meaning no more than a 7% loss of RPM from 75%.

Interestingly, there is no minimum mag drop specified. However, it is important to allow more than just two seconds to elapse when performing these checks so that a definite mag drop can be seen, and the integrity of the magneto switching system verified.

[Findon 40]

youtu.be/ 52YukTQf1dE (cant post URL)

Second video from rear pax............

https://youtu.be/52YukTQf1dE

[golfbananajam]

Screen grab of the OP video showing the key in the off position.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/831x552/pprune_49d86afa82eca3e1a97355e2553d1fade14fddcc.png

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I do not know anything about Robbies but...….if that poxy 50p key in the wrong position can result in such a cluster why is there not a dirty big red light or even a beepy noise telling you that the MAGS are not properly switched ON before you slip the surly bonds of earth?
To err is human. To design something that f***ks you up when you err without telling you beforehand is criminal! Does a 44 have a caution/warning panel OR is that the thing I cannot see hiding under the IPAD?

However, the little wild piggy's got to live another day so there was a positive!

[gator2]

There are two P leads, but I believe only one leg on the switch where those leads connect. If that connection was intermittent, and not intact during takeoff, both mags would work with key in "off". Then, if that single connection became intact during flight, both mags would connect to P, and no sparky. Can anybody confirm the switch configuration is one leg ground?

[John R81]

My GUESS is that gator2 has it.

I learned on R44 and flew then for years. My daughter also. We were both taught that in the mag test, if there was no "lumpiness" and RPM drop when you swapped from BOTH to L or R then there is an electrical problem, and the aircraft is unserviceable. The thing is, with no drop from BOTH to ONE it suggests that when in BOTH you really only have one mag (if the switch is working). As here, it could also show an intermittent fault in the earthing circuit.

A drop of more than 7% indicates that in BOTH you had 2 mags but the mag you are now testing is not serviceable.

I should also add, we were taught to test R first, as it is 2 clicks back to BOTH, then L (one click back to both). That way you reduce the risk of testing R second and only going back 1 click, so departing on the L mag only.

Anyway, if the test does not go as you expect then - whatever the difference - off to maintenance and no flying with me in it until sorted. .

[FH1100 Pilot]

Last line of the video: "You're one hell of a f***in' pilot."
I guess we don't get to hear, "Yeah, I managed to take off with the mag switch off! Like to see Chuck Aaron do THAT!"

Oh, and he had plenty of airspeed when it quit - don't they teach R-44 pilots how to do autorotations anymore?

[Unregistered_]

At exactly the two minute mark, he goes to turn off the already off mags. '...oh dear' flashes through his mind

[RickNRoll]

Cockpit camera. What more do you need to solve an incident?

[aa777888]

Oh, and he had plenty of airspeed when it quit - don't they teach R-44 pilots how to do autorotations anymore?
Totally reading into the video, of course, but it looked like his initial plan was just to do a straight in from his original heading, i.e. keeping it simple, until he saw those power lines along the road. That last minute, very low level turn seemed to knocked him off his game. Maybe also the sight of the scrub brush reaching up to bite him, too.

The instructor I use for recurrent training has thrown some stuff at me that's close to that level of difficulty, but not quite. Last minute turns, but easy, "safe", terrain. A couple of times it resulted in an unplanned full down (mostly we do power recoveries in 44's) because there was no other way. Which I suppose is fine with the right instructor on board (mine sure is, 10K+ hours) but perhaps not with the average 200 hour CFI-H in a low inertial machine like the 44.

Honestly I hope I can do as well if ever faced with a low level auto in an R44 that needed a last minute turn into scrub lands like that.

[FH1100 Pilot]

aaa777888: "...low inertia machine like the 44."

Uhhh, what? Low-inertia? I've always heard that the R-44 has inertia like a 206B! What gives?

100 feet agl., 72 knots...engine quits, horn sounds. He does the cyclic-back thing alright to get his rpm back but apparently bled off most or all of his airspeed in the process. The horn sounds intermittently, indicating that the collective may not have been on the bottom. He gets a little rpm back in his premature flare and then again in the turn, but it evidently doesn't stay up.

We cannot see the tacho or any of the caution lights. R-44 kids these days sure do love their devices in the cockpit. I ask: How many devices do you need on a hog hunt flight! This kid has one device blocking his view of the mag switch (obviously), and *another* device mounted in such a way that it may have blocked the PIC's view of the caution panel. I am reminded of that chick out on the U.S. west coast who took off to go do some frost control one *dark* morning. She got fiddling with her iPad right after takeoff and ran her little R-44 smack dab into a grove of trees! Wrecked that ship pretty good - lucky she wasn't killed! (She may have damaged one of the trees in that grove, too.)

Finally, aa777888, you and I will just have to disagree on how "difficult" that EOL was. In my limited experience (11,000 hours) most helicopters come down pretty steeply in autorotation. Like, between-the-pedals steep, especially if you start close to your best-auto speed to begin with. Maybe yours doesn't. The powerline along the road was visible from a long way off. The kid should have realized immediately that he'd never glide past it - not from 100'. But there seemed to be plenty of open areas between the sagebrush to set the thing down. I know it's harsh to judge a guy's autorotation after the fact, but the video evidence of this one is pretty damning.

Yeah, yeah, everybody lived and the machine can be replaced...a new job can be found...new devices can be ordered from Apple, and we're thankful for all of that...I guess... But yet another "helicopters are dangerous!" video will go viral on YouTube and Instagram and wherever else "INSANE!!" aircraft crash videos are sold. And anytime a non-aviator asks us what happens when the engine quits, and we give them that standard old explanation of "air rushing up through the rotor keeps it spinning and we have complete control," the non-aviator will say, "Yeah, but I saw this YouTube video of a helicopter that crashed on a hog hunt, and..." And we'll sigh and silently think to ourself, "At least he didn't ask me about the Kobe Bryant crash!"

[gulliBell]

Apparently the accident was investigated and it turns out the gun of the front seat passenger knocked the magneto switch from the BOTH position to the OFF position and there was a fault in the L magneto that kept the motor running until it suddenly stopped running.

[RVDT]

Its a long time since I flew one of "Franks finest" but operationally or even maintenance-wise I don't remember there being any cause to check whether the mags were actually grounded by selecting OFF as I would guess the engine would stop dead as there is no flywheel effect like a prop.

I can understand the requirement with a prop when you see the number of people leaning or standing there with their hand on the prop in so much media. As a maintenance tech it gives me the
shivers - if they only knew. Appears in a lot of so-called "safety" magazines as well.

Mag checks are pretty important in the Robbo and policy was mag check "every" takeoff - no if's or buts. Even if you were on the ground for 30 seconds on all piston types that were operated.

We used to have a policy of cranking to check for a flat cylinder with mags OFF on the first flight of the day which would show up a dud P-Lead. The practice was revised due to subsequent inability to start with crappy little battery and starting issues in the middle of nowhere. It was more important to get a start first time.

No mag drop is the giveaway and yes it is too good to be true - it will always drop.

You gained a "feel" for how good or bad your mags and also plugs were. In the climate we were in mags on R22's might last 300 hours on average before needing some sort of attention. Poor cooling.

I guess as alluded to if one had a dud P-Lead you could start the machine and fly with the mags OFF and in-flight it resurrects itself OOPS! It would need to be the Left one too (I think) as otherwise, I don't think you could start it without
"shower of sparks" and using the retarded mag. The start vibrator grounds the main advanced points (hence P-Lead) and runs the retarded points when the starter is engaged.

As mentioned it is a long time since I flew one of these things but looking at the performance being achieved the aircraft is seriously heavy or the engine isn't producing much power.

I would have thought at 22"-23" and not climbing it doesnt seem to be getting much more than 65-70 knots or is not accelerating ar least. Maybe its me and cant remember just how limited they were!!

[RVDT]

Apparently the accident was investigated and it turns out the gun of the front seat passenger knocked the magneto switch from the BOTH position to the OFF position and there was a fault in the L magneto that kept the motor running until it suddenly stopped running.

Must have been before takeoff?

[John R81]

And he must have been doing something odd with the gun - look where the mag switch is compared to the passenger.

[RVDT]

Probably pretty easy to replicate to prove a point.

Cant see the pedals but are rubber boots over them where they go through the floor standard now?

An empty shell case down there has hurt a few people over the years.

[[email protected]]

So the implication is that he didn't do any pre-take off checks (or certainly not properly after loading the pax) and he certainly didn't stop in the hover long enough to confirm all was well before transitioning - cowboy is as cowboy does.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Still the little wild piggy’s got to live another day. Result I think. If your Willy is so small that obliterating a little piggy’s head with a high powered rifle makes it seem better.........then sweet justice really.

[206Fan]

Must have been before takeoff?

RVDT,

If you watch the second video from the back seat passenger, you can see they lifted from the front of the hanger and repositioned onto the taxiway before commencing with the final takeoff. The front video doesn't show them lifting from the hanger first. So If the front passenger knocked the mag switch to off with his rifle, then it was likely before the rear passenger started the recording. Though saying that you can't see the front passengers rifle in the second video.

Aside from the video this has been an interesting thread discussion on the magnetos. I'm getting back in the R44 next week so I'll be having a chat with the instructor to have a more in depth discussion on the mags.

[Cylinder Head]

The mag check should have proved mags were functioning correctly, including the RPM recovery on reselecting both. Therefore if MAP is at 20" when rotors are running on the ground, prior to applying pitch, something is wrong, MAP should be around 13" -15" and I have taught this as part of pre takeoff checks, since that tragic accident at Sandtoft when a solo student had only one mag selected. This check is the best way to spot a dodgy/unselected mag. The shimmy from flying on one mag is not that easy to feel in the Raven II. In flight its not always possible to know what MAP should be on a given day, in those specific conditions, so doing the check on the ground is highly recommended.

Mention of low inertia is an interesting one. This comment gets rolled out regularly as a criticism of Robinsons but in this case, its the high inertia of the R44 blades that meant the RRPM didn't come back quickly enough once he'd over pitched. Flying too low to provide sufficient time to recover RRPM is unwise, Get away from the ground asap.

[SRFred]

Love the "silencer" on the rifle! LOL

[[email protected]]

Well, you wouldn't want to scare the poor little piggys before you blow them to bits would you?;) The only thing giving them a fighting chance is the noise of the helicopter - maybe that's why he turned the engine off :)

Oh to be such brave hunters............

[gulliBell]

Love the "silencer" on the rifle! LOL
Well. It is Texas.

[gulliBell]

...The only thing giving them a fighting chance is the noise of the helicopter.....

They've got the silent option covered as well. It's called tannerite. A few pounds of tannerite in a tin can, some corn, and a well aimed Grendel 6.5 and the piggies don't hear a thing. They just exist one second chowing down on some corn, and totally don't exist the next.

[B2N2]

To all bleeding hearts...feral pigs are a pest in many Southern states,Texas included.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/a-plague-of-pigs-in-texas-73769069/

[aa777888]

Uhhh, what? Low-inertia? I've always heard that the R-44 has inertia like a 206B! What gives?Come on, you know you could have finished a sandwich during that auto if it had been in a 206 ;)

We cannot see the tacho or any of the caution lights. R-44 kids these days sure do love their devices in the cockpit. I ask: How many devices do you need on a hog hunt flight! This kid has one device blocking his view of the mag switch (obviously), and *another* device mounted in such a way that it may have blocked the PIC's view of the caution panel.While I understand your visceral reaction to a pet peeve, If you look carefully you will see that neither device blocks the pilot's view of any instrumentation. The angle from the camera mounted on the left front passenger's head is in no way indicative of the pilot's ability to see any part of the panel or controls.

Finally, aa777888, you and I will just have to disagree on how "difficult" that EOL was. In my limited experience (11,000 hours) most helicopters come down pretty steeply in autorotation. Like, between-the-pedals steep, especially if you start close to your best-auto speed to begin with. Maybe yours doesn't.Don't be silly, of course it does. Your posts are normally a lot more even handed, not sure what's set you off on this one. I'm just trying to be kind. We all aspire to a higher standard, but I'm not going to start making skygod/sky king/super-pilot posts about how I could have flown it better, whether or not I think that I really could have flown it better. You have many times my experience, and at 11,000 hours probably many times the experience of most pilots, I'm sure you could have flown it better.

But yet another "helicopters are dangerous!" video will go viral on YouTubeIn this day and age it's probably easier to simply ban cameras from the cockpit, since aircraft of all types will always be crashing or flown ham handed. On the other hand, Robinson just made a cockpit camera system a $2500 factory option, so standby for plenty more Youtube and Facebook gold :rolleyes:

Apparently the accident was investigated and it turns out the gun of the front seat passenger knocked the magneto switch from the BOTH position to the OFF position and there was a fault in the L magneto that kept the motor running until it suddenly stopped running.gB--would you have a link to that report, please?

Its a long time since I flew one of "Franks finest" but operationally or even maintenance-wise I don't remember there being any cause to check whether the mags were actually grounded by selecting OFF as I would guess the engine would stop dead as there is no flywheel effect like a prop.Correct. There's no reason to do that check normally. If there's a bad P lead that can be detected during the normal mag checks.

[gulliBell]

..gB--would you have a link to that report, please?


No link. Personal communication with the owner.

[aa777888]

As for guns/pigs/'merica...

Cant see the pedals but are rubber boots over them where they go through the floor standard now? An empty shell case down there has hurt a few people over the years.No rubber boots in 44's, I'm afraid. Totally with you on this one! Brass catchers are required in my book! Neither pax seemed be so equipped :(

Love the "silencer" on the rifle! LOLSuppressed rifles are much more pleasant to shoot. Even when shooting from helicopters. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

As for those of you who might be rooting for the piggies (and that's a pun if you know anything about pigs/hogs :}), they might call it hunting, but it's really eradication. They are a dangerous and destructive infestation that remains, at best, barely under control.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/a-plague-of-pigs-in-texas-73769069/

And for the UK rotorhead breathren, you are also beset by the same problem, but you use much nicer words and are only slightly more subtle about it compared to us more overtly bloodthirsty 'mericans.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/mar/04/trouble-return-wild-boar-britain

It's amazing how small mistakes in judgement can lead to infestations like both of those. My neighbor's 4 pigs got loose at the 200lb stage a few years ago and started to turn my fields in moonscapes. I was able to corral them into a paddock for him, no easy task even for domestic pigs. He himself said "Why didn't you just shoot them?"

[aa777888]

No link. Personal communication with the owner.
Thanks for the quick reply!

Interesting. If true, we can add poor weapons skills on the part of the pilot and crew to the litany, because no part of the rifle should have ever crossed over into that part of the cabin, even when loading pax, and especially after the engine was started! That's quite frightening!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

"As for those of you who might be rooting for the piggies (and that's a pun if you know anything about pigs/hogs https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif), they might call it hunting, but it's really eradication. They are a dangerous and destructive infestation that remains, at best, barely under control"

Of course they are...…..the last great cry from the micro-penis fraternity that like to kill things to make them feel whole again!

"They are a dangerous and destructive infestation that remains, at best, barely under control"

If you were a little piggy, you would say exactly the same about the nasty men in the helicopter with their big guns! Killing anything in the name of sport is indefensible! If the cap fits on your redneck murderous head then wear it with shame!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

"They are a dangerous and destructive infestation"

What have the naughty piggys been doing.....snuffling for root vegetables with malice? Scoffing truffles with intent? Or maybe deliberatley rolling in mud without a though for the environment!

[sycamore]

Why would you allow idiots with loaded weapons to get onboard in the first place.......? and in the front seat...? do you have to have an `endorsement` to live-fire from a helo.....?

[aa777888]

Pastures, farms, gardens: take your pick, little piggies. And those are just the most obvious problems, there are many others. If you live in a world where you are insulated from the direct effects perhaps you simple can't understand. But it's easy to understand when you lose tens of thousands of dollars in crops overnight. Or the feedlot for your cattle is wrecked. Or even your prized petunias are gone. Then there are the diseases that spread to other livestock, the fact that they drive out all other species of game and non-game animals, etc., etc. But things like that are hard for city-dwelling vegans to grasp, I guess :ugh:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/wild_hog_damage_2b1c1da63916d2a8111b43d76104c038a3b59316.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1999x1500/wild_hog_damage_jax_91d0e4315779e3d9504ba4cc11ec74fe6a0e9f7f .jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x1000/wild_pig_crop_damage_7ec6c286f6d131c9e5fff5ac8e3a0d150582779 b.jpg

[John R81]

Once you get them on your farm as we did (yes, in the UK) you change your tune very quickly. A herd can destroy acres in a single night. You use whatever you can to eradicate the unwelcome pests, or go bust. Rifles with thermal sights are best so you can work after dark. Night vision can work but if you use an illuminator they can see some of them (depends on the wavelength of your IR torch). And suppressors (no such thing as a silencer unless you are in a movie) save your hearing - not interested in the Boar.

[aa777888]

Why would you allow idiots with loaded weapons to get onboard in the first place.......? and in the front seat...? do you have to have an `endorsement` to live-fire from a helo.....?
You are forgetting that this is in America and, even more importantly, Texas :)

Actually, hunting from aircraft and vehicles is generally illegal nearly everywhere in the US. However, it has proven to be such an efficient method of eradicating the hogs that Texas, and so far only Texas, has explicitly made it legal (for hogs only).

There are also many places in the US where you can fire weapons from helicopters at regular targets on a large firing range and they do big business.

While this all might seem to be insanely dangerous to folks who have not grown up steeped in gun culture, i.e. pretty much everywhere except the US these days, it's really not all that difficult to do with a level of safety high enough to make any untoward event as rare as, say, an aircraft accident. And, like any other intrinsically dangerous activity, such as SCUBA, skydiving, motorcycling, skiing (dare I mention flying helicopters?) it takes proper training, discipline and oversight. People have figured these things out because obviously it can and is being done safely.

Of course there is an emotional aspect to all this that tends to color people's perceptions. If poor Joe got smashed on his motorcycle, maybe took another vehicle or two and their occupants along for the ride, or broke his leg on a ski slope, maybe colliding with and injuring others, people would be sympathetic. If Joe shot himself in the foot in Nevada shooting stuff from helicopters, or put a round through a skid tube, it would be the end of life as we know it, right? Because aviation is special and guns are bad...

[[email protected]]

Yep - Texas has it right about everything......yawn - even getting rid of mandatory mask wearing in the middle of a pandemic.:ugh:

Plenty of us are used to gun culture - it is ingrained from day 1 in the military and shooting all manner of weapons from helicopters is best left to professionals.

I get the need to control the hog population and understand the efficiency of using helicopters - but what is the justification for the use of assault rifles when a number of other options might work too. Or can't they shoot straight in Texas?:)

[John R81]

Crab - you're not trying to redirect attention from the fact that this "non-military" person with a self-loading rifle (may or may not be an "assault rifle, many that look like this are not capable of automatic fire) might be doing his job better than the pilot who departed with both mags switched off?

I'm sure you would not do that

[[email protected]]

No JohnR81 - the dipstick with the pilot's licence out dips the dipsticks with the poor gun control:)

Non-full auto assault rifles? In Texas I think you'd be laughed off the range:)

[[email protected]]

DB, I don't think the brave little hunters would take kindly to being on the receiving end:) That's why they aren't serving their country.

[spangzilla]

They could only own fully automatic rifles if they were made before 1986, but they are much more expensive than new semi-automatic rifles because there's a limited supply

[aa777888]

Yep - Texas has it right about everything......yawn - even getting rid of mandatory mask wearing in the middle of a pandemic.:ugh:

Plenty of us are used to gun culture - it is ingrained from day 1 in the military and shooting all manner of weapons from helicopters is best left to professionals.
Unlike other countries, in the US firearms skills are not the exclusive domain of the military or law enforcement. In the US there are a great many civilians with more individual weapons training and experience than armed "professionals". Millions of law-abiding civilians in the US walk around all day, ever day with their handguns on their person, fully loaded, ready for use, with near zero problems. A tremendous amount of civilian ammo goes down range, far more than the military uses, every year, again with near zero problems.

I get the need to control the hog population and understand the efficiency of using helicopters - but what is the justification for the use of assault rifles when a number of other options might work too. Or can't they shoot straight in Texas?:)
Quite simply it is the best tool for the job. Such weapons represent an optimum mix of size, weight, ballistics, rate of fire and ergonomics. That is why militaries use them to kill their enemies, and why they are also the best choice for killing hogs in an efficient manner, and a whole host of other defensive and offensive applications. BTW, anyone who tells you that they are "fun to shoot" or "easy to shoot", and a bunch of other fluffy stuff like that is just dancing around the point, which is that they are among the most efficient weapons devised by man, and therefore quite often the best tool for the job.

Finally, crab, you have no idea if any of those hunters have not already, or aren't currently, serving their country. To say things about that is just trolling for trouble, a habit of yours when people express ideas you don't agree with.

[[email protected]]

Unlike other countries, in the US firearms skills are not the exclusive domain of the military or law enforcement. In the US there are a great many civilians with more individual weapons training and experience than armed "professionals". Millions of law-abiding civilians in the US walk around all day, ever day with their handguns on their person, fully loaded, ready for use, with near zero problems. A tremendous amount of civilian ammo goes down range, far more than the military uses, every year, again with near zero problems. The big difference is that the military and law enforcement are subject to competency checks and compliance with rules of engagement - how may of your millions of civilians have to comply with that?

Equally, spraying a bunch of rounds down range at the weekend is no indicator of competence or safety - much like practicing instrument flying in VMC and expecting yourself to be ready for IIMC.

Even a PPLH holder is expected to show some level of competence before being let loose solo !

Maybe those hunters have served, maybe not - you don't know either but apparently you are correct and not me.

BTW, anyone who tells you that they are "fun to shoot" or "easy to shoot", and a bunch of other fluffy stuff like that I'm quite capable of making my own assessment of a weapon thanks - the AR 15 is 'easy to shoot' as it happens but not as devastating as an AK47:ok:

Out of interest, are these guys going for single shot kills?

[Robbiee]

This must be where Ted Nugent retired to,...

https://youtu.be/Ptfr-LyXo8s

[aa777888]

The big difference is that the military and law enforcement are subject to competency checks and compliance with rules of engagement - how may of your millions of civilians have to comply with that?

Equally, spraying a bunch of rounds down range at the weekend is no indicator of competence or safety - much like practicing instrument flying in VMC and expecting yourself to be ready for IIMC.

Even a PPLH holder is expected to show some level of competence before being let loose solo !

Maybe those hunters have served, maybe not - you don't know either but apparently you are correct and not me.

I'm quite capable of making my own assessment of a weapon thanks - the AR 15 is 'easy to shoot' as it happens but not as devastating as an AK47:ok:

Out of interest, are these guys going for single shot kills?
crab--these are all good discussion topics. I'm happy to discuss further if you want to move to jetblast, but I don't want to continue to diverge this topic. Just let me know...

[[email protected]]

So it doesn't take much of a look on youtube to see that - far from the noble farmer protecting his crops -shooting the hogs from helicopters has turned into a business opportunity.

What used to be an expensive outlay for the farmers is now a lucrative ($2,400 dollars pp for 2 hours!) business - they clearly have no incentive to reduce the number of hogs or they wouldn't be able to sell the trips to the tourists (both domestic and foreign) who want to come and shoot things without fear of repercussions.

So I think we are back to DBs assessment of these people.

[[email protected]]

It also seems that there are firms out there doing far more scientific hog culling using traps and enclosures - yes they still shoot them in the end but they avoid dispersing the hogs the way that dog and helicopter hunting does which both create more damage not less.

[B2N2]

These are not innocent fluffy little creatures


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/379x256/image_981f30edb194bc307c07e0f5fd26d2a1402e37ca.jpeg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x1024/wild_hog_golf_course_san_antonio_768x1024_436350b7210c19543f 5ea9b0beb463c2ae0c9c05.jpg

[[email protected]]

These are not innocent fluffy little creatures no but they were introduced by settlers for food and nowadays are ignored in favour MaccyD and KFC.

Eat the fricking things instead of fast food, the overpopulation will be over in weeks.

[Bell_ringer]

That last photo, is he hunting or marrying it?
Sorry, it is Texas, best to check against local customs :E

[[email protected]]

Squeal like a pig..............

[timprice]

I always thought Hogs were Harleys,
Love the NZ video great flying, love the scenery:ok:

[[email protected]]

aa777888 - I think this topic has already diverged - the pilot didn't do the first part of his job properly and had to really pull it out of the bag to survive the second part.

You love guns and I don't - not much left to debate really - out of interest have you ever lived outside of USA?

[aa777888]

You love guns and I don't - not much left to debate really - out of interest have you ever lived outside of USA?I've never lived outside of the US. I have travelled a bit. FWIW I've had many visits to the UK and AUS on business over the last few years. I was in the UK, staying at the London Marriott County Hall no less, when that idiot attacked those people at Westminster in 2017. It took a gun to stop that one, although personally I think the Horse Guards got ripped, it would have been so much better if they had charged down there with sabres drawn!

[SRFred]

As for guns/pigs/'merica...
Suppressed rifles are much more pleasant to shoot. Even when shooting from helicopters. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.


Yes they are and yes I have used them but not from a helicopter.

Currently I have an increased feral pig problem as a result of National Parks aerial shooting in the last week. National parks are allowed to shoot feral animals such as cats, foxes, pigs, deer from a helicopter but not horses because they can't kill them "humanely"!

[Robbiee]

Well (don't tell him this, but) I don't love my Beretta,...we're just freinds with benefits.

However, something definitely needs to be done to stop these rogue rifles from shooting ignition keys into the off positions in helicopters! Until then, remember kids,...if a rifle enters your cockpit, double check your mags before liftoff,...especially if he's wearing a silencer!.

[[email protected]]

aa777888 - so envisage the likely bloodbath if the residents of London had been carrying weapons and started shooting at everyone who looked like a terrorist - yes, guns were used to stop him - but by trained and very well regulated people.

Imagine worse - that the terrorist had been able to freely access guns at his local store with only a cursory safety check - starts to make you understand the severity of mass shootings in the US doesn't it?

Yes, bad people do bad things - but only with the weapons they have available to them.

Ted Cruz's answer to mass shootings has been to allow more guns in churches and campuses - please explain the logic?

Yes, I know this is off topic but gun control related to helicopters appears to have been a major factor in this accident and related to the reason for the flight in the first place.

aa77788 - also please note that I wasn't the first to make any comments on this thread personal.

[aa777888]

Again, crab, if you wish to discuss firearms and personal defense, I'd be happy to meet you over in jetblast. Not going to pursue it in this topic. Just let me know...

[[email protected]]

aa777888 - you can always pm me - I have very thick skin, well a shell really, hence the username, but I usually find common ground with most people.

[tartare]

Pastures, farms, gardens: take your pick, little piggies. And those are just the most obvious problems, there are many others. If you live in a world where you are insulated from the direct effects perhaps you simple can't understand. But it's easy to understand when you lose tens of thousands of dollars in crops overnight. Or the feedlot for your cattle is wrecked. Or even your prized petunias are gone. Then there are the diseases that spread to other livestock, the fact that they drive out all other species of game and non-game animals, etc., etc. But things like that are hard for city-dwelling vegans to grasp, I guess :ugh:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/wild_hog_damage_2b1c1da63916d2a8111b43d76104c038a3b59316.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1999x1500/wild_hog_damage_jax_91d0e4315779e3d9504ba4cc11ec74fe6a0e9f7f .jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x1000/wild_pig_crop_damage_7ec6c286f6d131c9e5fff5ac8e3a0d150582779 b.jpg
Holy ****e.
Take a mini-gun the next time!

[Wooden_Blades]

No minigun or helicopter needed. Invite a pack of wolves on the premises. They eat boars and find them delectable.

[EMS R22]

Great work they all walked away!!

They are still building helicopters!!

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

No link. Personal communication with the owner.
A few basic details here:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/248409

Interesting that the nature of the flight is noted as Private, rather than Commercial?

Inputting the registration into the NTSB accident database returns zero results.

[Bravo73]

Plenty of us are used to gun culture - it is ingrained from day 1 in the military and shooting all manner of weapons from helicopters is best left to professionals.


https://s2helicopterservices.com/videos

[rb14]

I do not know anything about Robbies but...….if that poxy 50p key in the wrong position can result in such a cluster why is there not a dirty big red light or even a beepy noise telling you that the MAGS are not properly switched ON before you slip the surly bonds of earth?

Absolutely this. So much of aviation is regulated to the ends of eternity, but simple stuff like you suggest, not a chance.

On ebay recently I saw a Cessna key blank being offered for £20. Twenty quid. Anything aviation, start off multiplying by a factor of ten, then doubling it.

Me: "Why?"
Instructor: "Apparently it's for all the safety testing, reliability and certification."
"OK, so if I try to fly the plane with a key turned maybe 15 degrees from the correct position, will I get a warning?"
"No."
"Really?"
"No."
"Even though it could cause me serious problems?"
"No."
"Hmmm. Well at least I can rely on the important stuff, like the fuel gauges?"
"Yeah, funny you should mention them...."

[[email protected]]

Bravo73 - not much professional activity going on there I think.

[Robbiee]

I do not know anything about Robbies but...….if that poxy 50p key in the wrong position can result in such a cluster why is there not a dirty big red light or even a beepy noise telling you that the MAGS are not properly switched ON before you slip the surly bonds of earth?
To err is human. To design something that f***ks you up when you err without telling you beforehand is criminal! Does a 44 have a caution/warning panel OR is that the thing I cannot see hiding under the IPAD?

However, the little wild piggy's got to live another day so there was a positive!

Well, if you are the type who needs the government to hold his hand through life, Robinson did develop a "full throttle" light for inattentive pilots, so perhaps they'll give you your "ignition key off" light one day, if this keeps happening?

[172510]

Has this accident been investigated? Is the official report available? I couldn't read the registration number of the aircraft. With the registration number I could locate the report

[NWstu]

A few basic details here:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/248409

Interesting that the nature of the flight is noted as Private, rather than Commercial?

Inputting the registration into the NTSB accident database returns zero results.

Here's the preliminary. Nothing revealing yet. Use this website (https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-public/basic-search) for any aviation occurrences 1/1/2008 and later

[Satoshi Nakamoto]

The video posted by Findon 40 taken by the rear seat passenger appears to show the front passenger was not wearing his seat belt. In which case he was extremely lucky to walk away.

[wrench1]

It also seems that there are firms out there doing far more scientific hog culling using traps and enclosures - yes they still shoot them in the end but they avoid dispersing the hogs the way that dog and helicopter hunting does which both create more damage not less.
FYI:
From the scientific side, it is impossible to mechanically eradicate all feral hogs as they are too prolific and smart. In Texas for example, in order to keep their 2 million hog population in check, it would require the harvest of 1.25 million hogs per year. They barely achieve 400,000 each year and this is with a 365 day, 24/7, legal hunting season. Traps tend to work one time then must lay dormant for months or moved as other hogs will not enter the trap after the 1st use.

Considering hogs cause over a $1 Billion in damage in the US alone, a niche industry has sprung up with aerial hunts as shown in the video. There are quite a few ops out there. There are also professional aerial hog hunters who specialize in night flights from either a small fixed wing or helicopter using thermal imaging sights. Given a farmer can incur up to a $70,000+ loss in one night, the issue is very serious in the agricultural belts around the country.

The latest move over the past several years has been toward developing a poison that will kill just the hog and leave a biological marker that it was poisoned in case the animal is harvested for sport. Regardless, even with a lethal poison it will still be a chore to reduce the feral hog populations in my experience. Just be thankful they haven’t figured out how to swim the big pond… yet.

[topradio]

Sorry, I don't believe the gun/key story. What's the chance of the gun switching the key to off in the first place, pretty small I would say. In all the 22 & 44's I've flown the switch takes a definite twist and just knocking the key is highly unlikely to move it 3 positions! And then to cap it all the switch also has to be faulty!

I don't buy it, has all the hallmarks of a tale cooked-up after the event to spare the blushes of the pilot.

Edit to say, and keep the insurance company happy.

[DDG-37]

Much more than "pilot blushes"...The tail rotor and aft end of the boom is gone!!

[megan]

Shooting seems to be a major part of their operation.Services - Cattle Herding, Hunting, Patriot Range, Aerial Survey, Pipeline Inspection, Power Line Inspection, Hunting Price
https://s2helicopterservices.com/

[PR0PWASH]

Look at the start of the video, the key was in the of position before they even got off the ground
Unless the barrel of the switch was rotated in the panel then my money is on malfunctioning P Leads and a poor pre-flight.

[[email protected]]

Wrench1 - seems it was a very self-inflicted problem https://www.germaniainsurance.com/blogs/post/germania-insurance-blog/2020/01/29/everything-you-need-to-know-about-texas%27-wild-pig-problem

You start by introducing them for sport and then suddenly you have millions of them.

Another interesting comment here https://www.si.com/sports-illustrated/2020/01/30/feral-pigs-problem-texas-helicopters - seems like the answer is going to need more than a few tourists with AR 15s

Couldn't the governor take them on holiday with him?:)

[aa777888]

Don't forget this is likely to become a problem in the UK, too. ShootingUK estimates the population is now up to 2600 and climbing rapidly. See also the link I posted earlier in this thread. Now is the time for you folks to completely eradicate them, before it's too late.

[Hot and Hi]

Look at the start of the video, the key was in the of position before they even got off the ground
Unless the barrel of the switch was rotated in the panel then my money is on malfunctioning P Leads and a poor pre-flight.

It appears so. As much as on shutdown (cool-down period, then clutch OFF) we check at this moment that the mechanical (engine-driven) fuel pump on its own works well (as clutch OFF disengages the electric fuel pump), one could also check the magneto key switch OFF function.

30 sec after clutch OFF you would then normally kill the engine by pulling the mixture. You might just decide to once in a while kill the engine by turning the magneto key switch to OFF. It's not in the POM, and others here can advise if there are any reasons for not doing this way...

With correct wiring you would get:

- Immediate engine stop when turning the key to OFF
- Noticeable, positive engine roughness and RPM drop between 3 and 5 % (but less than 7% within 2 sec) by running in either one magneto
- Positive rpm and smoothness recovery when switch from one magneto back to two magnetos

If you religiously follow a pre-takeoff *checklist* even if the engine was just off for a few minutes, I agree very little chances that you take-off with the key in the wrong position AND the wiring to be totally wrong AND the wiring miraculously coming right (ie engine stop) after 20 sec.

--

No passenger can change a switch position in the cockpit, with the engine running and the pilot at the controls, without the pilot noticing. Full stop. Let alone accidentally.

OK, last time that happened was in NYC with the Squirrel where the passenger's camera strap or similar caught the fuel shutoff lever and then pulled up that lever thereby shutting off fuel flow. But let's just say that here the idea that the front pax with his rifle knocked a rotary switch from the 5 o'clock to the 1 o'clock position only suits one person, the pilot.

--

Great auto?

While we are all happy that all pax walked away from this accident unhurt, and while I wouldn't boast that I would have done much better, adding to the above this was a fairly botched autorotation (loss of speed, loss RRPM). The pilot treated the engine out like if it was at cruise speed (with the stick in forward position before the engine stops), not adjusting his technique for the fact that he was still in the climb (with the stick in an AFT position).

The good thing that can be said is that he didn't stop flying the aircraft until the impact and until the aircraft come to a complete stop, avoiding obstacles left right and centre. And doing a great run-on landing on rough terrain without toppling over. That was *not* luck.

[[email protected]]

Don't forget this is likely to become a problem in the UK, too. ShootingUK estimates the population is now up to 2600 and climbing rapidly. See also the link I posted earlier in this thread. Now is the time for you folks to completely eradicate them, before it's too late. I'll just nip down to Walmart and get me an AR 15 and a bucket of bullets then :)

But that 2600 is spread across the whole of the UK with the majority being in one place - the Forest of Dean. You didn't mention that Shooting UK also advocates a closed season on lactating sows, something that I suspect wouldn't be acceptable in Texas.

[wrench1]

Wrench1 - seems it was a very self-inflicted problem ... You start by introducing them for sport and then suddenly you have millions of them.
True to a point. The other half is the loss of habitat which is compounding the existing problem. I've been dealing with this issue for over 30 years as a land lessee/owner and supported various aerial ops but not the pay-for-hunt type in the video. Most state hog populations were managed effectively up until the 80s and 90s when the sport hunting side took off. Free enterprise at its best and worst. Just like the python issues in the Florida Everglades, the nutria in the marshes of the GOM, and the Kudzu plants of the southeastern US. They all started as good ideas but people were clueless on the ramifications when they released these animals/plants into prime survival areas. With luck, if the current chemical treatments continue to work, along with all the other measures being used, to include the aerial cowboys in the OP, they may get the populations back into control, but never 100% eradicated. At least thats how things are moving around my end of the spectrum. Now back to our regular programing......

[aa777888]

I'll just nip down to Walmart and get me an AR 15 and a bucket of bullets then :)Ha ha! I'll believe that when I see it, even if you could! Mr-not-a-gun-guy ;)

But that 2600 is spread across the whole of the UK with the majority being in one place - the Forest of Dean. You didn't mention that Shooting UK also advocates a closed season on lactating sows, something that I suspect wouldn't be acceptable in Texas.Very true. Shades of the same economic and philosophical motivations that exist in parts of the Texas eradication--er--hunting industry, I suspect. You know, more pigs means more hunting, guns, guides and tours that will be necessary. It's a fine line between conservation, wild game and pest. But I'm a naturally suspicious type. Hope it doesn't get out of hand!

[nomorehelosforme]

Don't forget this is likely to become a problem in the UK, too. ShootingUK estimates the population is now up to 2600 and climbing rapidly. See also the link I posted earlier in this thread. Now is the time for you folks to completely eradicate them, before it's too late.

aa777888,

My dear boy, you seem to forget that in the UK, we have successfully controlled our wild animals for many hundreds of years before the helicopter, the AR15 and the USA even existed .. we constantly keep wild animal populations in check, protect and reintroduce endangered species and don’t fly around shooting at anything that moves for fun, just saying!

[[email protected]]

aa777888 - I'd pick a Barrett 0.5 inch as my choice - a bit big for helicopter use maybe but if you hit it you will kill it unlike the 5.56mm AR - I understand the need to eradicate the hogs but there is no need to be cruel about it, wounding them to leave them dying in pain.

[etudiant]

aa777888,

My dear boy, you seem to forget that in the UK, we have successfully controlled our wild animals for many hundreds of years before the helicopter, the AR15 and the USA even existed .. we constantly keep wild animal populations in check, protect and reintroduce endangered species and don’t fly around shooting at anything that moves for fun, just saying!

Given the political realities, I'd not be so confident about the ability to keep feral pigs in check. Germany has a similar feral pig issue afaik, but is prevented from effective countermeasures by a vociferous lobby.
Hence the parks in Berlin are always a work in progress, the pigs can undo in a night what took months to grow and plant.

[nomorehelosforme]

Given the political realities, I'd not be so confident about the ability to keep feral pigs in check. Germany has a similar feral pig issue afaik, but is prevented from effective countermeasures by a vociferous lobby.
Hence the parks in Berlin are always a work in progress, the pigs can undo in a night what took months to grow and plant.

I merely made reference to aa777888 comments about the UK, the rest of Europe’s problems are in our past....

[aa777888]

Given the political realities, I'd not be so confident about the ability to keep feral pigs in check. Germany has a similar feral pig issue afaik, but is prevented from effective countermeasures by a vociferous lobby.
Hence the parks in Berlin are always a work in progress, the pigs can undo in a night what took months to grow and plant.
Exactly. Times change. Unintended consequences occur.

[havick]

What has any of this got to do with an R44 pancaking?

[BigMike]

"aa777888 - I'd pick a Barrett 0.5 inch as my choice - a bit big for helicopter use maybe but if you hit it you will kill it unlike the 5.56mm AR - I understand the need to eradicate the hogs but there is no need to be cruel about it, wounding them to leave them dying in pain."

I don't think anyone knows more about aerial culling than the Kiwi's. If I'm not mistaken, 7.62 or 00 buckshot are the choice. 5.56 has its place depending on the species. The AR platform is popular due to being light, reliable, and configurable.

A professional aerial shooter should be able to headshoot the animal.

Pigs are a huge problem in Australia as well. 24 million plus feral population...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2019-06-18/aerial-culling-key-to-keeping-down-feral-animal-numbers/11216010
https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2018-12-11/western-riverina-feral-pig-cull/10604376

Link to Aus government SOP's for further reading...
https://pestsmart.org.au/toolkit-resource/aerial-shooting-of-feral-pigs/

I don't agree with the recommendation that the R44/B206 are the preferred aircraft. The MD500 was long ago proved to be the ultimate aerial shooting platform.

[gulliBell]

What has any of this got to do with an R44 pancaking?
Because it was said the rifle of a front seat passenger, who was engaged in feral hog shooting, knocked the switch which turned off the magnetos which caused the engine to stop which resulted in the helicopter pancaking.

[havick]

Because it was said the rifle of a front seat passenger, who was engaged in feral hog shooting, knocked the switch which turned off the magnetos which caused the engine to stop which resulted in the helicopter pancaking.

But politics of gun ownership is relevant how?

Arguably more camera straps have caused helicopter accidents than potentially a rogue rifle bumping a mag switch.

[Hot and Hi]

Because it was said the rifle of a front seat passenger, who was engaged in feral hog shooting, knocked the switch which turned off the magnetos which caused the engine to stop which resulted in the helicopter pancaking.

But we know this is not true! Firstly you can’t bump a rotary switch, by 120 degrees, across 3 solid positions.

And secondly, because then - as you say - the engine would stop. The whole issue is that the engine worked just fine with the engine switch in the off position.

As much as it suits our narrative that somehow miraculously the switch came right during flight and did what it was supposed to do (ie kill engine), this might be jumping to conclusions.

There could be any number of other reasons why an engine fails after takeoff, even with magnetos working.

[gulliBell]

The owner of the aircraft told me that is what happened. And the engine kept running due to an intermittent electrical fault that didn't ground the L magneto in the OFF position. Until it did ground the magneto. Whether or not they cooked up that story to suit their own purposes, who knows. If that engine was running only on one magneto at take-off I find it pretty difficult to believe even the most superficially observant pilot would not notice that. If not seeing the key position in the switch, the sound and performance of the engine should have been a giveaway.

[SCPL_1988]

R44 have several different possible panels.
If he was used to flying a Beta II
that same 2 oclock position would be
both. A careful examination of that screen shot shows
its the version where it was OFF.

Makes you wonder how that happened.

[[email protected]]

Ah, that's where he went wrong - he was flying a Robertson not a Robinson:) - sorry couldn't resist:ok:

[topradio]

You can clearly see him go to turn the mags off at which point he notices that they're already off and he flicks the fob away in an embarrassed gesture.

[[email protected]]

What has any of this got to do with an R44 pancaking? With the rising feral pig problem in Texas and other states, it is likely we will see far more of these helicopter shooting businesses crop up - all will use the cheapest helicopter they can and many will be owner/operators - I don't suppose this area of aviation is particularly well-regulated in terms of safety so we are probably going to be dissecting more light helo crashes in the future.

The NSW, Australia video Mike linked to, highlights the need for a concerted, co-ordinated cull on a large scale otherwise this problem is going to keep getting worse for all concerned. Is there a State or Federal department that could do this?

Big Mike - from what I have read, these hogs have very thick heads so a head shot might not be the answer.

[[email protected]]

hargreaves99 - from any photo I can find of the 44 cockpit, the OFF position is in the 10 o'clock as SCPL says - your screen grab has the key in the 2 o'clock position

[topradio]

Crab, from the photo above you can clearly see that there is no legend in the 10 o'clock position on the panel. In fact you can see that it is printed in the 5 o'clock position and if you zoom in you can even see that it says 'both'

[[email protected]]

Belay my last - I went back and looked at the photo at the beginning that Hargreaves posted and that does match the crash aircraft, clearly showing the OFF position as 2 o'clock. Strange that a lot of photos on the web of R44 cockpits show a different arrangement - is the Raven different from the Raven II in this respect?

Why wouldn't you have a standard switch for all your helicopters if you are Uncle Frank?

So we are back to the reason that the engine stopped was the pilot's fault

[[email protected]]

The Australian Govt's webpage that BigMike's last link takes you to makes for interesting reading - have a look at the recommendations and safety measures listed there, especially with reference to humane killing and confirming kills and then look at the videos on the web from the same company involved in this crash and see if you can see any adherence to what might be considered 'best-practice'.

[John R81]

Crab - the switch changed in Raven II. Earlier models had "off" at 10, RII has "off" at 2 on the clock

[[email protected]]

Thanks JohnR81 - that explains some of the confusion. I wonder if the guy in the video was often swapping between Raven and Raven II - it would go some way to explaining the switch cock-up.

As I said, why would Robinson not keep a standard layout between models - just a HF accident waiting to happen.

[topradio]

If he used a checklist he wouldn't have made the cock-up even if they had moved the switch to above his head. Models change and evolve that's why we have variance training.
The switch had to be faulty (intermittent?) and normally he would have found his error when starting up but on this occasion it caught him out.

[aa777888]

Thanks JohnR81 - that explains some of the confusion. I wonder if the guy in the video was often swapping between Raven and Raven II - it would go some way to explaining the switch cock-up.

As I said, why would Robinson not keep a standard layout between models - just a HF accident waiting to happen.
As someone who actually does fly both Raven I and Raven II helicopters, it's not really an issue. It's the same switch in both helicopters. Nobody pays attention to how it is clocked in the instrument panel. It's all about the number of clicks.

On the Raven I you turn it until you hit START, get the engine running, then release the switch out of its momentary START position into the BOTH position.

On the Raven II you turn it until you hit PRIME (the momentary position of the switch is used to run the electric primer of the fuel injection on the Raven II), prime for however many seconds you want, then release the switch out of its momentary PRIME position into the BOTH position. Then you use one of the two identical starter buttons, one located on the cyclic, the other on the collective, to start the engine.

After that both variants are the same for the mag checks: two clicks back to R, then two clicks forward to BOTH, then one click back to L, then once click forward to BOTH. The muscle memory is identical.

The real danger in switching back and forth between the two variants is that the carbureted Raven I requires you to manage carb heat. If you are coming out of the Raven II and forget to do that it can really ruin your day.

BREAK

In re-watching both the front and rear seat videos, it would seem that there might have been some concern about engine performance, and that would be commensurate with running on only one mag. In the rear seat video particularly, the pilot picks up and sets down a couple of times. And if you listen carefully I think I heard the word "engine" on the audio track. Also, on the front seat video, the manifold pressures look exceedingly high for the conditions they probably had in TX in January. If I had picked up on, say, a 15 or 20C day at TX altitudes and saw nearly 25" that would be most unusual and concerning. And the MP is sitting at 20" when they were on the skids, which is very high if the collective is all the way down, even with just one mag it doesn't do that, so perhaps he still had some collective pulled in, not sure why.

Anyhow, it seems we'll never really know, because there does not appear to be an FAA or NTSB investigation opened up on this incident, at least not in any publicly accessible database.

[John R81]

If it is N322SH ROBINSON HELICOPTER R44 II

Then

NTSB Status (https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-public/query-builder?month=1&year=2021) - In Work

Preliminary
"On January 9, 2021, about 1010 central standard time, a Robinson R44 helicopter, N322SH, was
substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident near Albany, Texas. The pilot and two
passengers were not injured. The helicopter was operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations
(CFR) Part 91 hog hunting flight.
The pilot reported that it was the third flight of the day and the helicopter took off uneventfully. About
120 ft above the ground, the engine sputtered temporarily before it lost complete power. The pilot
performed an autorotation to a field. During the descent, the helicopter impacted trees and landed hard
right skid low. Subsequently, the main rotor blade contacted, and separated, the tail boom.
The helicopter has been recovered to a secure location for further examination."

[aa777888]

Thanks, John. I see I'm looking in the wrong place. I didn't know they had switched over to this "CAROL" site.

[[email protected]]

aa777888 - it's fine if someone always follows the correct procedures as you shouldn't get caught out - the HF element comes when a cursory glance doesn't identify that something looks wrong - if he flys both types and is used to seeing different pictures in each for normal flying configuration, he might forget which he is in and the subconscious alarm bells don't ring to get him to take a closer look.

Notwithstanding that, the engine performance should have been a big clue if it is at such variance from the norm as you describe.

Whichever way you cut it, it seems the fault lays firmly with the guy in the right hand seat.

[Robbiee]

The real danger in switching back and forth between the two variants is that the carbureted Raven I requires you to manage carb heat. If you are coming out of the Raven II and forget to do that it can really ruin your day.



Maybe if you were initially trained in a Raven II? Having been trained in the R22 my pre-takoff/landing check has always been, Lights out, Speed is green, Guages are green, Fuel, Carb heat, Trim. No matter which Robby I'm flying muscle memory has me saying (and looking for) those things everytime,...even when they're not there.

As for the key, yeah muscle memory with how to check it, but up until this accident if you'd of asked me which way the key points, I'd of just stared back like a deer in the headlights,...as that's not something I've ever paid attention to,...let alone memorized.

Funny though, I've complained about Robby's lack of standardization with regards to instrument placement (mainly when I get into a ten-hole) but never even noticed the inconsistent key setup,...?

[Nineteen84]

Interestingly, the R44 checklist includes a mag check on each mag to ensure the engine doesn't cut out on only one mag and that the RPM drop is insignificant, and then returning the key to the 'both' position and checking the RPM returns to normal...it's the same on the checklist of the Piper PA-32 using the Lycoming O-540/IO-540...so if this was followed the key would be in the 'both' position

[aa777888]

Lack of standardization seems to be an issue in many helicopter models. Look how many variants of the Squirrel/Astar there are. Single vs. dual hydraulics, different engines, FADEC/no FADEC, etc. Lot's of different panels in helicopters that have been around a long time, like the MD500, the 206, etc.

[rotorspeed]

Doesn’t seem too smart to have a big floppy key fob that significantly obscures the position of the key beneath it - particularly when that position is critical. Surely a more rigid coloured small flag on the key would be more sensible, to enable instant visual recognition of key position?

[aa777888]

That's what you do in a SEP - watching for the RPM drop when when switching BOTH-L and BOTH-R. You don't have to watch the gauges - not being deaf is enough. I have no idea how practical this is with a rotor and its significantly higher inertia.
You don't appear to have read the entire topic. See posts 22 and 132. Inertia is not an issue, piston helicopters all use a freewheeling device between the engine and the transmission. On the Robinson it's a sprag clutch.

[aa777888]

Switching an ignition circuit off leads to a step in power produced by the engine, not a step in engine speed. So no freewheeling.
On a prop with low inertia and no constant speed governor active, the new power level will lead to a nearly instantaneous drop in speed due to low masses and high aerodynamic resistance.
I strongly suspect that I will take a little longer for the rotational masses in a R44 to settle for the new power level.
Freewheeling does occur. The sprag clutch leaves the engine free to decelerate to the extent that switching a mag off will make it decelerate without any inertial effects from the transmission or rotor system. Also, this test is performed at 75% RPM which is, intentionally of course or you could not perform the test, below the 80% point at which the governor takes over, so that is not a factor either. The only rotational masses the engine has to contend with during this test are those of the engine itself. Thus your assertions are not entirely correct. However, it is true that, because of the sprag clutch, there are no frictional or drag forces loading the engine from the transmission or rotor system, so that does have some affect on the deceleration of the engine.

I was asking how long that takes and if this magneto check is practical therefore.A tired mag will approach the 7% in 2 second limit, so not long in that case. I brand new mag can take 5 or even 10 seconds to show even a small drop, say 2%. One must be careful and patient to detect a bad P lead. I suspect most do it by ear, but I like to visualize a discrete drop in RPM. In any case the check is eminently practical.

[212man]

Freewheeling does occur. The sprag clutch leaves the engine free to decelerate to the extent that switching a mag off will make it decelerate without any inertial effects from the transmission or rotor system

So you are saying there is a needle split when you do the mag check? There are some instructional videos available that would tend to suggest otherwise.

[aa777888]

So you are saying there is a needle split when you do the mag check? There are some instructional videos available that would tend to suggest otherwise.
No, the needles don't split, but that's just energy being removed from the transmission and rotor system and at the low energy state of 75% it tends to bleed off at the same speed as the engine when a magneto is removed from the equation. Nevertheless, don't be fooled by that. By definition, because of the sprag clutch, the transmission and rotor system are not "dragged down" by the engine, and the engine is not "dragged up" by transmission and rotor system. The sprag clutch is a one way valve for energy (ignoring the tiny friction losses in the sprag clutch itself). If that was not true then you could never achieve a needle split under any circumstances, and of course you can.

[Vessbot]

Could it be that the clutch carries a small amount of negative torque that has to be overcome before freewheeling happens? And, if so, a mag check does not overcome this small amount, so they stay engaged? Because if we're talking 5-10 seconds to see a mag drop, there's definitely something "dragging up" the engine RPM, which, in an airplane takes more like an eighth of a second (i.e., near instantaneous) to change.

[aa777888]

Could it be that the clutch carries a small amount of negative torque that has to be overcome before freewheeling happens? And, if so, a mag check does not overcome this small amount, so they stay engaged? Because if we're talking 5-10 seconds to see a mag drop, there's definitely something "dragging up" the engine RPM, which, in an airplane takes more like an eighth of a second (i.e., near instantaneous) to change.
Perhaps. I am now logging a Knowledge Limit Exceedance :)

[Vessbot]

The engine delivers positive torque at all time during the magneto check, just slighltly less when on one ignition circuit. The entire powertain therefore decelerates until the new power setting (pi/30*rpm*torque, torque up, rpm down) is in balance with the aero forces. It‘s the same as if you decelerate your car without coasting (dragging the engine).

Thank you aa777888 for that up to 10s. I doubt the majority of operators will have the discipline.
The transmission is carrying positive torque (engine driving rotor) during steady state running in BOTH and slightly less positive torque in steady state running in L or R. But the question is, during the RPM reduction from BOTH to one mag, why does the change take 5-10 seconds instead of being nearly instantaneous, as it should be if the engine was under only its own influence? During that ramp-down (let's say 3 seconds into the 10 seconds), something is keeping the engine RPM higher than it should be with no external influence. So what is that something?

[aa777888]

One thing I didn't think of is that the engine is turning that big squirrel cage fan right off the crankshaft, right where a prop would be on an airplane.

[Gauges and Dials]

In a normally aspirated piston engine, manifold pressure is determined by throttle position and engine RPM. Mags on / mags off; mixture full rich or idle cut-off; engine producing power or no power, fuel tanks full or empty; the air in the manifold doesn't know about any of that; only how how fast the engine is turning and what the throttle position is.

A surprising number of piston pilots will get this wrong until they think it through.

[megan]

why does the change take 5-10 seconds instead of being nearly instantaneous, as it should beIt doesn't take a number of seconds, the change, as you say, is instantaneous. There seems to be a lack of appreciation of what is happening when you switch to one mag, besides the fact that one mag is now not operating. The sole reason for the mag drop is that it takes longer for the flame front from that one operating mag to spread right across the cylinder ie total combustion within the entire cylinder volume will be reached at a slower rate. The torque drop is instantaneous. For those of you with the latest engine instrument installations, why does the EGT rise when switching to one mag?

freewheeling doesn't occur during a mag drop check, there is a power reduction, not a removal of power.

[[email protected]]

Just as well there is clear guidance in the R44 POH about how to conduct the mag check - oh no....hang on.............

Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.

[Capt Fathom]

Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.

Ah, basic airmanship in regards to running the engine should dictate mags to both! Similar to... the engine should be running for take-off. Shouldn’t need a checklist for that!

[skridlov]

Now I live in a country where it's all but impossible to own a firearm these days but as a young man I used to use shotguns a lot and when I lived in Australia (before Port Arthur massacre) I had a couple of rifles. So I'm not a complete know-nothing where safety's concerned. I was originally taught to completely unload - removing cartridges - before, for example, climbing over a fence or stile - irrespective of whether safety was on. So throwing a semi-automatic (I've owned one, albeit a 22) out of a helicopter with a magazine in place, irrespective of whether the user thinks there's a chambered round or not - and it seems highly probable in this case that there was - looks plain idiotic to me.

[212man]

Just as well there is clear guidance in the R44 POH about how to conduct the mag check - oh no....hang on.............

Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.
no “flight checks” of any kind - just how to start it and shutdown. Mind you, another thread was asking about fuel planning, and when I looked at the POHs on the website it was clear there are no consumption figures available for planning!

[[email protected]]

Ah, basic airmanship in regards to running the engine should dictate mags to both! Similar to... the engine should be running for take-off. Shouldn’t need a checklist for that! And I bet if he had been in his truck and had the engine running with the ignition off, he would probably have questioned why.

You can't assume basic airmanship with some of these people.

[Wide Mouth Frog]

There used to be a check in there that the MAP was between 13-14" with the collective fully down. That was a good one for picking up this sort of problem. I don't know why they took that out.

[Dog on Cat3]

Indeed. There also used to be a check item demanding passengers were actually wearing their seatbelts. it appears, from the rear passenger footage, that the front seat passenger couldn't be arsed and the so-called commander couldn't, er!, command so much as a reminder, either. Do the laws of common-sense or physics not apply in Texas?

Meanwhile...no checklist, no mag test, no after take-off checks, no 'power available' check in the hover..., no sense, no feeling, they say, Very glad all walked away, but that was sheer luck, not airmanship.

Note also the insufficient lowering of the collective, no reaction to the accompanying low RRPM horn (resulting in the classic 'tail chop), no flare, no levelling immediately prior to touch-down,...only the left turn looks good. Like I say...glad all got to walk home.

Can't help thinking Mr Hog will have the last laugh once the insurance assessor also chooses to walk away. And, guns and helicopters together?...as someone else far more qualified than me already pointed out;... such things are best left to the professionals. Lots of lessons to be learned from this one, methinks

[212man]

There used to be a check in there that the MAP was between 13-14" with the collective fully down. That was a good one for picking up this sort of problem. I don't know why they took that out.
Can you explain a bit more, how that would pick up "this sort of problem"?

[Wide Mouth Frog]

When you switch a mag off the MAP rises.

[Robbiee]

Just as well there is clear guidance in the R44 POH about how to conduct the mag check - oh no....hang on.............

Nothing in the check list for selecting the switch to BOTH after the check and no pre-take-off checks either.

Someone "somehow" popped the clutch circuit breaker once after engine start which lead to an incident. Now there is an additional "circuit breakers in" check after engine start on the checklist. I suppose now we'll see an addional "mags to BOTH" added somewhere to the bottom?

The way things are going, we'll eventually end up with a mile long checklist and a ten minute pre-takeoff recitation to make up for insufficient training and/or inattentive/complacent pilots. :( :}

[[email protected]]

Someone "somehow" popped the clutch circuit breaker once after engine start which lead to an incident. Now there is an additional "circuit breakers in" check after engine start on the checklist. I suppose now we'll see an addional "mags to BOTH" added somewhere to the bottom? you mean something that should have been there in the first place? If adding it stops another pilot getting airborne with faulty mags he hasn't checked properly, you can't really argue that it is a bad thing.

All military helicopters I have flown have extensive checklists that are committed to memory and not one of them has taken as long as 10 mins to start and get airborne including first flight functional checks.

Commercial pilots are usually required to complete challenge and response checks from lists so what is the problem with checklists?

[212man]

When you switch a mag off the MAP rises.
I hadn't realised how much of a rise there is. Just found this video where this whole process - both the initial mag check, and the check of the mag switch position and MAP before lifting - is discussed at length, including a demo of the MAP rise on one versus the expected normal figure. He does say that there is hardly any RPM drop during the mag check, and says that means they are healthy. My recollection from FW training is that you want to see a positive drop to confirm you have actually isolated one - not seeing a drop when selecting either L or R would seem to match the fault in the original accident topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zs-jfTQn6A
Smart avionics fit!

For those that know, and can be bothered to watch, why do the rotors start turning after start, with the clutch switch off - residual tension in the belts?

PS. Not much point fitting a four-point harness if it's not worn correctly.......

[aa777888]

FWIW: when I first learned to fly <mumble, mumble> many years ago, I was taught that for single pilot op's it was a CHECK list, not a DO list. In this way one achieved the necessary redundancy in a single pilot environment. The DO was achieved in a series of logical flows or patterns, the CHECK came afterward with the handy printed card in your lap, and it is always humbling when you find that you forgot to DO something.

It is certainly not a foolproof system, but it does seem to help me.

[Robbiee]

you mean something that should have been there in the first place? If adding it stops another pilot getting airborne with faulty mags he hasn't checked properly, you can't really argue that it is a bad thing.

All military helicopters I have flown have extensive checklists that are committed to memory and not one of them has taken as long as 10 mins to start and get airborne including first flight functional checks.

Commercial pilots are usually required to complete challenge and response checks from lists so what is the problem with checklists?

You cannot account for EVERY mishap that "might" occur. We don't need the manufacturer or the FAA to hold our hands throughout the entire flight. Some pilots just need to take responsibility for not being attentive. Its true for all the LTE accidents as well as all those "too much in a hurry to perform a simple hover check" pilots who just get light and yank it away,...and those douchebags who took off with the governor "off" causing overspeeds, which then led to the checklist being changed (again) to leaving it "on" all the time!

Some things just don't need to be on a checklist.

[Robbiee]

For those that know, and can be bothered to watch, why do the rotors start turning after start, with the clutch switch off - residual tension in the belts?

...

New belts,...read Safety Notice 33 which has been in the POH since at least '98.

[212man]

New belts,...read Safety Notice 33 which has been in the POH since at least '98.
I see. It was a genuine question from a non R44 pilot, as it seemed odd, or counter-intuitive.

Edit.
OK. I have read it https://robinsonheli.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/rhc_sn33.pdf

[aa777888]

I hadn't realised how much of a rise there is. Just found this video where this whole process - both the initial mag check, and the check of the mag switch position and MAP before lifting - is discussed at length, including a demo of the MAP rise on one versus the expected normal figure. He does say that there is hardly any RPM drop during the mag check, and says that means they are healthy. My recollection from FW training is that you want to see a positive drop to confirm you have actually isolated one - not seeing a drop when selecting either L or R would seem to match the fault in the original accident topic.
I had also been looking for a good video of R44 (or even R22) mag checks and have yet to find one. This particular video is actually quite poor. He does not provide a good visualization of the engine RPM gauge during the checks and therefore it is difficult for those who are not familiar with piston helicopters to truly appreciate how the engine RPM responds during these checks. Then he addresses the MAP rise as an afterthought well past the mag checks.

You may have missed it, but way back in post 131 I did observe that the MP was way up at 20" when they were on the skids and read to pick up. I also previously addressed the issue that one may need to wait several seconds (more than 2) to detect an RPM drop to confirm a good P lead.

For those that know, and can be bothered to watch, why do the rotors start turning after start, with the clutch switch off - residual tension in the belts?
Yes, exactly. This is particularly apparent with new belts and it's a fine line between running to MX, stretching them per S/N 33, or just making a couple of flights. One also has to be careful not to start up with the clutch partially engaged. If the previous pilot did not perform the shutdown properly the clutch may not be fully disengaged and if you are quick at starting things up this can happen, particularly on the R22 or Raven I because no electric priming is necessary. However in this case when the master came on the clutch light was out so not an issue.

[megan]

My recollection from FW training is that you want to see a positive drop to confirm you have actually isolated one - not seeing a drop when selecting either L or R would seem to match the fault in the original accident topic.Nothing wrong with your memory 212man, max permitted drop in the -44 is 7%, which equates to 187 RPM, the Lycoming manual for the engine says max of 175 RPM drop with 50 RPM max difference between mags. If you don't see a drop you have problems, the mag you have supposedly turned "off" is still live and producing a spark.Not much point fitting a four-point harness if it's not worn correctlyYou'd think an instructor would know how to wear seat belts, low on the hips, else you'll submarine right on out of there.

Posted to clear up discussion on mag switch positions. Cockpit switch confusion by the pilot flying a mixed fleet? Cause of crashes and deaths in the airline industry..


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/77217419_660b_4401_985f_0416aa959c64_ff15dfc766a70e8ef8b0c7c c402f097a98cccf2b_159dbfd3c5f0d180a76ddd10a182926a3834f1fa.j pg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/784x486/untitled_01fe97dd9385702a0b8b800b5ea49b882ff91df9.png
A tired mag will approach the 7% in 2 second limit, so not long in that case. I brand new mag can take 5 or even 10 seconds to show even a small drop, say 2%. One must be careful and patient to detect a bad P lead. I suspect most do it by ear, but I like to visualize a discrete drop in RPM. In any case the check is eminently practical.Can you give an explanation to your statement as to why?

[[email protected]]

Surely for a serviceable mag and P lead, the rpm drop should be instantaneous - the guy in the video certainly seems to think it should by the speed he goes through the switch positions.

[aa777888]

Can you give an explanation to your statement as to why?
I can't. That's just been my experience. I don't know the "why".

Surely for a serviceable mag and P lead, the rpm drop should be instantaneous - the guy in the video certainly seems to think it should by the speed he goes through the switch positions.And yet it can be barely detectable initially on a really good mag. We've been discussing above whether this is a peculiarity of the R44 or not.

By way of example, on my R44 the right mag has got 100's of hours on it total and about 70 hours since the last 500 hour mag inspection (approx., I don't have the logs in front of me) and the left mag is brand new, less than 10 hours on it. When I do a mag check right now, in the prescribed "2 seconds", I get a quick and obvious drop on the right mag, albeit nowhere near 7%, and almost no detectable drop on the left mag.

[megan]

Surely for a serviceable mag and P lead, the rpm drop should be instantaneousNot should, rather, will be instantaneous, matters not if it's a new or old mag.I get a quick and obvious drop on the right mag, albeit nowhere near 7%, and almost no detectable drop on the left magOn the R-44 there should be no more than 1.9% difference between the two mag drops.

[RVDT]

By way of example, on my R44 the right mag has got 100's of hours on it total and about 70 hours since the last 500 hour mag inspection (approx., I don't have the logs in front of me) and the left mag is brand new, less than 10 hours on it. When I do a mag check right now, in the prescribed "2 seconds", I get a quick and obvious drop on the right mag, albeit nowhere near 7%, and almost no detectable drop on the left mag.

Try starting it with the mags "OFF" and get back to us. You may have the same issue as the hog hunter!!

[aa777888]

Try starting it with the mags "OFF" and get back to us. You may have the same issue as the hog hunter!!
I can 100% guarantee you that I don't have that issue. I am meticulous about my mag checks, as is everyone else who flies my helicopter, and I have a meticulous maintainer. A bad P lead is actually what lead to the replacement of the left mag. It was a bad connection inside the mag, and the mag failed inspection in other ways when we opened it up. So a new mag it was. In the past I've also experienced the same issue due to a bad ignition switch. Sadly, both were expensive fixes, of course. What I wouldn't give for just a plain old busted wire terminal!

[John R81]

It takes time to observe the loss of power in the engine because this is an indirect measurement which requires time for the lower power to have an effect on what you are measuring.

Each cylinder has 2 spark plugs, each of which is fed from a single separate mag. Working correctly, each initiates a flame front in the fuel / air mixture within the cylinder which travel outwards from the spark and eventually (in fractions of a second) meet to provide full combustion. Before the test the engine manifold pressure is set to provide power sufficient to maintain the rotor at a steady 75% ROTOR RPM. That level of power is required because of the resistance at zero blade pitch (air on the rotors causing drag and friction in the mechanical systems).

Switching to one functional mag at the same manifold pressure (same volume of fuel / air in the cylinder) means only a single spark and flame front within the piston, and that is all that you have changed. The burn from a single flame front now has to cover the whole of the cylinder volume and hence the fuel / air mixture is slower to achieve full combustion. This is less efficient, the burn having to be at the correct point in the cycle of the engine (timing) for peak efficiency, and less power is now produced by each cylinder even though the manifold pressure has not changed. Resistance in the system is initially unchanged (ROTOR RPM is 75% when you start the test) but so less power will then be less than needed to sustain the ROTOR RPM at that same speed and it will slow to a point where the resistance forces balance the new (lower) power output.

The drop in engine performance is instantaneous but what you are measuring is not. You are watching the ROTOR RPM, and it takes finite time for resistance to slow the blades to the new equilibrium. You notice the loss of power straight away - not as smooth and RRPM begins to drop. With a "good single mag" the new ROTOR RPM steady state will be achieved well within the test time.

A weak (failing) single mag will provide a weaker spark than intended and provide a smaller ignition patch, or bad timing on that mag will provide a mis-timed spark; in either case these additional issues will result in further power drop than expected. The ROTOR RPM then falls further to achieve the new equilibrium between resistance and power. The bigger the power drop, the longer it takes for the ROTOR RPM to decay to the new equilibrium - there is quite some momentum in the system, after all. Hence the duration of the test is what Robinson have determined is enough to to check that the mag is within serviceable range, i.e. long enough for the ROTOR RPM to drop out of range and be spotted if it is not within serviceable range..

I was told that the difference in drops between L and R mag is due to the position of the two spark plugs in the cylinder, which results in different flame progression in the cylinder - though I can't vouch for that.

[[email protected]]

Good post John R81 - what would it have taken for Robinson to have included such very useful information in the handling section of their POH?

[rb14]

Each cylinder has 2 spark plugs fed from a single separate mag.

I don't think what you've written here reflects what you intended?

[gulliBell]

It takes time to observe the loss of power in the engine because....

Good grief! I'll stick to turbine engines, thinking about piston engines just warps my brain too much.

[John R81]

GulliBell - i don't have trouble with piston engines as have been playing with them since I was a kid (first rebuild aged 8 - under supervision of Dad) but with communicating clearly and simply - as rb14 spotted and kindly pointed out. Best build effort so far - turning a crate LS1 engine into a 1,000 HP twin RB38 turbo monstor for.... actually, it was road legal.

rb14 - thanks for this, I think it's important to avoid potential confusion, so I have edited accordingly

[Rich B]

I’m only a lowly PPL (H) but the majority of my hours have been in a Raven II, and I think a crucial mistake was not noticing MP before lifting. A few people have mentioned this already but I was always taught to check MP as part of my final pre take off procedure before lifting in to the hover. A reading of 20” would indicate a problem when the machine is still on the ground. As far as I am aware it be should be at 15” or below. We can debate all we like about his mag checks or lack of, and the key position and possible reasons for it. On here and on social media there have been plenty of comments about both. If he had checked MP before lifting, he may have realised he had a potential issue. To be fair, the pilot did well to get the machine on the ground and everyone walked away. But it looks like it should have been totally avoidable, and it will be interesting to see how the authorities view it. Best Regards.

[Robbiee]

I’m only a lowly PPL (H) but the majority of my hours have been in a Raven II, and I think a crucial mistake was not noticing MP before lifting. A few people have mentioned this already but I was always taught to check MP as part of my final pre take off procedure before lifting in to the hover. A reading of 20” would indicate a problem when the machine is still on the ground. As far as I am aware it be should be at 15” or below. We can debate all we like about his mag checks or lack of, and the key position and possible reasons for it. On here and on social media there have been plenty of comments about both. If he had checked MP before lifting, he may have realised he had a potential issue. To be fair, the pilot did well to get the machine on the ground and everyone walked away. But it looks like it should have been totally avoidable, and it will be interesting to see how the authorities view it. Best Regards.

When I was in training I was taught two ways to ensure that the governor was on before takeoff,...yet some pilots were still leaving it off causing an overspeed!?

Thing is, you can teach pilots the proper way of doing things, give them all the knowledge they could ever need, put every conceivable possibility onto the checklist, or in the POH (as some keep griping on about) in the end though,...you cannot save the distracted/inattentive/in a hurry/overcome by "get the job done itis", pilot.

That's why I went IIMC (wearing my "Land and Live" cap) and why this guy didn't notice his key was in the wrong position,...and trust me he wouldn't have noticed the MAP either even if it was on the checklist!

We are not perfect,...we're just human.

[ShyTorque]

aa777888 - I'd pick a Barrett 0.5 inch as my choice - a bit big for helicopter use maybe but if you hit it you will kill it unlike the 5.56mm AR - I understand the need to eradicate the hogs but there is no need to be cruel about it, wounding them to leave them dying in pain.

Oh yes, in Europe we reserve them for human targets.

[cattletruck]

Thanks megan for the photos.

From a previous poster's observation
Some observation from the video as posted.
00.07 Pre Take Off, key at 1 O'Clock.
00.34 Take Off Roll, key still at 1 O'Clock.
01.53 Post Arrival, key still at 1 O'Clock.
02.01 Shut Down, key turned to 12 O'Clock.
02.06 Post Shut Down, key now at 12 O'Clock.

Then how could the key be turned further left from the OFF position? Perhaps the lock barrel from the other type of helicopter was fitted to this one, or the barrel is loose and turns around in the panel.

Having two types of orientation for the same switch that performs the same function is in my opinion bad engineering.

[teej013]

I personally think that automotive ignition type switches have no place in the aviation industry. There are too many opportunities for murphy, eg if the key is 180 degrees out, it will still look to be in the correct position - even on close inspection. Switches with important function should have positive position indications, like an old fashioned clunky rotary switch.

[[email protected]]

teej013 - the problem is that things are designed and built by engineers - I don't think any aircraft manufacturers have an ergonomics dept for Human Factors input:)

[212man]

teej013 - the problem is that things are designed and built by engineers - I don't think any aircraft manufacturers have an ergonomics dept for Human Factors input:)
I assume that is a ‘tongue in cheek’ statement.....although I doubt Robinson does given their size.

[[email protected]]

Yes, tongue-in-cheek but sometimes you have to wonder with some aircraft designs - the Lynx Tq matching worked counter-intuitively, you were re-datuming the no 2 ECU governor but turning the knob clockwise increased the number 1 Tq instead of the no 2.

The close positioning of the mixture knob to the fuel shut off ISTR on the R22 was another one.

[212man]

Yes, tongue-in-cheek but sometimes you have to wonder with some aircraft designs - the Lynx Tq matching worked counter-intuitively, you were re-datuming the no 2 ECU governor but turning the knob clockwise increased the number 1 Tq instead of the no 2.

The close positioning of the mixture knob to the fuel shut off ISTR on the R22 was another one.

yes - hence the plastic ring, afterthought

[aa777888]

We should start a separate thread on our pet design peeves. I bet every helicopter model has at least a dozen. What I wouldn't give for an extended oil filler tube and adjustable co-pilot side pedals on the R44. Can't get them. Never will have them. But I can get air conditioning, Lithium batteries and all manner of other esoterica. It just boggles the mind, sometimes.

[sycamore]

Fit it with a `proper big round RRPM/ERPM GAUGE......

[rb14]

I personally think that automotive ignition type switches have no place in the aviation industry.
Absolutely this. I could barely believe it when I first sat in a Piper Warrior. Like seriously, is that REALLY how you start the engine in one of these? It's almost beyond belief. By all means have a key required to activate things, but as you also mentioned, surely to goodness a proper rotary switch with clear markings and detents is the absolute minimum. Even my instructor told me to "make sure you're back on "both" after you've checked your mags - it's easy to get it wrong." How on earth is it allowed to be "easy to get this wrong"?

[megan]

I personally think that automotive ignition type switches have no place in the aviation industry. There are too many opportunities for murphy, eg if the key is 180 degrees out, it will still look to be in the correct positionAll the aircraft rotary ignition switches I'm familiar with the key can only be inserted one way, unlike car ignition systems. The rotary aircraft ignition switch has been with us for decades, the Cessna I flew in 1959 had them, reliable, though subject to failure as are all things mechanical. Never personally, or heard of, anyone having problems.

[Robbiee]

Now its the keys fault!

:rolleyes:

[Agile]

Fit it with a `proper big round RRPM/ERPM GAUGE......
The R22 was originally designed witht he leisure or personal business traveler in mind so those RRPM and ERPM gauges were probalby suitable for the purpose of that market segment and a key was going to give you the feel of your aero car.
what surprises me is that the R44 continued to follow the obvious R22 miscalibration. I hate it when the H300 battery voltage is more visible than the R22 RRPM. hard to learn doing autos when you have to resolve millimeters on the needle to get ahead of the aircraft.

I personally think that automotive ignition type switches have no place in the aviation industry.
I think a key should have authority to the engine start (if needed at all), but authority to engine stop belong to the mixture or fuel shut off valve

Certification wise, it seems that it is hard to implement incremental modfication or improvments to an established type.

Yet, the exception:
Airbus helicopter has on the AS350-EC125-H125 made 17 variants (+ 6 conversion kit avaiable)
blade size change, number os seats, dual hydraulic, FADEC, VEMD Avionics, Fuel tank .... it seems that only the center frame and the control rods have remained as designed 50 years ago.

[Evil Twin]

A little anecdote regarding mag switches.

Very early in my career I took over flying a Bell 47 on scenics from a guy that was headed overseas. He told me of a flight where he'd told Dad and his young kid not to touch that particular switch as it would stop the engine running. Dad had to then spend the entire flight stopping the little 5hit kid from turning the mags off. I tucked that story in my experience bag and told every kid, that of all those switches in front of you one of them sets off your ejector seat but, I'm not telling you which one! Never once did I have any issues after that. :}

[aa777888]

Pretty much every single engine piston aircraft on the planet uses that same ignition switch. It's probably been around since the 30's. There are exceptions, of course, but they are few and far between. Not something pilots who've only seen the inside of a turbine helicopter might be familiar with. If it was really a problem mechanically or ergonomically it would have been phased out long ago.

[cattletruck]

The Tiger Moth has 2 magneto switches outside the cockpit mounted on the fuselage. The right magneto (forward switch) has some low speed ignition retardation capability to allow the starter motor (the person swinging the prop) to easily start the Gypsy Major (the engine). Once started the left magneto (rear switch) is turned on. Magneto checks are done during run-up by momentarily turning off either switch individually, pre-takeoff checks are to ensure both magnetos are on (switches up). Couldn't be simpler.

If it was really a problem mechanically or ergonomically it would have been phased out long ago.

In this case, it does look like Robinson came up with a new way to complicate things unnecessarily by using a different orientation for installing the same ignition switch. My concern in my post above was that from looking at the pictures megan kindly posted, it does look like the labelling on the switch panel doesn't match that ignition barrel.

Eurocopter also did a bodgy with their unreliable push-button switch panel on their early AS350s. The later toggle switch replacement of this panel is worlds better.

[Robbiee]

The R22 was originally designed witht he leisure or personal business traveler in mind so those RRPM and ERPM gauges were probalby suitable for the purpose of that market segment

Please elaborate.

[212man]

Pretty much every single engine piston aircraft on the planet uses that same ignition switch. It's probably been around since the 30's. There are exceptions, of course, but they are few and far between. Not something pilots who've only seen the inside of a turbine helicopter might be familiar with. If it was really a problem mechanically or ergonomically it would have been phased out long ago.

I was thinking the same - I think a lot of helicopter pilots have never flown SEP FW.

[B2N2]

We should start a separate thread on our pet design peeves. I bet every helicopter and fixed wing model has at least a dozen. .

:ugh:

Don’t get me started.
Someone with a degree thought it was a good idea to put the interior light switch on the door pillar on top of a fuel line....pre 90’s Cessna

[Agile]

Quote:
The R22 was originally designed witht he leisure or personal business traveler in mind so those RRPM and ERPM gauges were probalby suitable for the purpose of that market segment
Originally Posted by Robbiee
Please elaborate.

From the first line of robinson heliccopter inc history description: Franklin D. Robinson set about designing and building a cost-effective light helicopter targeted at the private individual, small business man.
originally sold for $40,000 when a new 1979 Cessna 152s and 172s were being delivered at $26,000 and $35,000, respectively.
With respect to the RRPM gauge, one can see how Guimbal did it with the green range taking half the screen, that was better calibrated to the training aircraft market.

[Robbiee]

From the first line of robinson heliccopter inc history description: Franklin D. Robinson set about designing and building a cost-effective light helicopter targeted at the private individual, small business man.
originally sold for $40,000 when a new 1979 Cessna 152s and 172s were being delivered at $26,000 and $35,000, respectively.
With respect to the RRPM gauge, one can see how Guimbal did it with the green range taking half the screen, that was better calibrated to the training aircraft market.

Actually, I thought that comment was more about the vertical setup of the Robby guage vs. the circular one in others. Which made me wonder if other aircraft specifically marketed for business flying had the vertical design like the Robby,...hence the comment I was replying to?

[megan]

My concern in my post above was that from looking at the pictures megan kindly posted, it does look like the labelling on the switch panel doesn't match that ignition barrelIt concerns me that Robinson has the switch positions labelled on the instrument panel and not on the switch itself. All the switches I'm familiar with have the markings on the switch itself.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/290x320/mag_switch_c8c0deaf9e925b4a1ff65248b6557a41e39cdf72.jpg

[gulliBell]

It's a silly switch. Why can't they just have a push to start button (like my car, and every other helicopter I've flown), and a separate spring loaded 3 way switch for testing the magnetos? Then it would be impossible to take off with a magneto inadvertently switched off, no matter how many AR's you "bump" it with.

[aa777888]

As both a pilot and an engineer, I submit that the ergonomics and design of this switch are excellent. It may be esthetically displeasing to some, but it is actually quite a bit safer, simpler and less prone to error than plain old toggle switches. If you don't fly piston single aircraft, fixed or rotary wing, you may not have a full appreciation of this.

- All the functionality you need in one switch. No need for four separate switches (key, left, right, start).
- System state is clear, unambiguous and forced to be sequential.
- Start (or prime) automatically puts you in BOTH.
- Intrinsically resistant to inadvertent movement, no need for "lift to move", switch guards or other mechanical safety features that have to be designed, provisioned, and operated.

In the Raven II, Robinson was actually quite clever by using the traditional start position for prime and providing starter buttons on both the cyclic and collective. They could have left the switch as-is and provided a separate electric priming switch. Instead the design more easily allows for an in-air restart in the unlikely event one has time for such things during the auto, and is more "turbine-like". It would be nice to see this design carry over into new Raven I's and R22's.

As you can see from the photo below, the shaft of the switch is keyed with a notch which prevents it from turning in the panel as the panel hole has a matching stub that goes into that notch. Thus panel legending is no better or worse than a separate legend ring that fits over the switch shaft.

As a rule (there must be a few exceptions) I can't think of modern single engine piston that doesn't use the rotary switch. Things get more complex in piston twins. For instance Cessna twins use plain old toggle switches while Beech twins use two rotary switches.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/pxl_20210315_130334918_92a37c1071becd3ba558f36e8c32fc1d6793d 45b.jpg

[Robbiee]

It's a silly switch. Why can't they just have a push to start button (like my car, and every other helicopter I've flown), and a separate spring loaded 3 way switch for testing the magnetos? Then it would be impossible to take off with a magneto inadvertently switched off, no matter how many AR's you "bump" it with.

Well, in all the years you've been flying, how many of these types of accidents have you heard about,...'cause in eighteen this is my first?

[wrench1]

It concerns me that Robinson has the switch positions labelled on the instrument panel and not on the switch itself. All the switches I'm familiar with have the markings on the switch itself.
FYI: you'll find those markings on the switch in your pic is just a keyed metal tag. There are only several switch manufacturers out there with Bendix on top.

What has not been mentioned is that if an owner doesn't like the magneto switch installed on their aircraft they have the option to change it legally via an alteration. Have done several. For the aircraft OEM to change that switch it usually doesn't pass the "bang for buck" review on the cost. Those switches are basically bullet-proof provided they are maintained (and used) properly.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Tradition dies hard in aviation. Piston-engine aircraft have been using rotary magneto switches forever. Since the mags can operate without any airframe electrical system at all, manufacturers incorporated a key lock into the switch as an anti-theft device. Putting the key into the switch meant that the manufacturer didn't have to have some other device to disable the ignition.

In the 1960's, when electric starter solenoids became widespread and you no longer had to pull a cable to manually engage the starter, then a button was often installed on the dash, or a spring-loaded "start" position was incorporated into the mag switch. (Some Piper airplanes had a weird one in which you actually had to push the key in while turning it to the "start" position - kind of like an old Volkswagen for those of you old enough to remember.) Some twin-engine fixed-wings used regular ol' toggle switches for the mags, and buttons (or spring-loaded toggles) for activating the starter. Some singles did too - Aeronca Champs had the toggle switches mounted on a panel on the wing root or in a recessed panel on the sidewall between the front and back seats..

Instead of designing special magneto switches for helicopters, r/w manufacturers simply used existing TSO'd fixed-wing switches. Old helicopters, with no locks on the cabin doors and no key needed for the magnetos were ridiculously easy to steal, if you were so inclined and talented. Until recently, I don't think I ever saw a Bell 47 or Hiller 12 with a key-type mag switch. In the 1970's Enstrom finally built their ships with a key-type mags. Robinson, obviously, followed suit. Enstrom put the starter button on the collective. R-22's had the "start" feature built into the mag switch. Later R-44's had a separate starter button (or two). Ahh, consistency in aviation!

Whether the legend for the mags is printed on a ring that surrounds the switch or on the instrument panel itself, I guarantee you that there is a notch and keyway affair in the switch and panel that keeps the barrel from rotating and being misaligned with the legend.

The most obvious explanation for this R-44 crash is this: Even with the key in the "Off" position, one of the mags was ungrounded. We do not know whether this was due to a faulty P-lead coming off the mag, or a defective mag switch. Bottom Line: he was running on one mag. At some point in the takeoff, the connection between the operational mag and 'ground' solidified again (perhaps through vibration). And since the switch was in the "Off" position, what happened was what was supposed to happen: The engine died.

Apparently, the crash happened at 10:00 a.m. Reportedly, the accident flight was the third flight of that day, which meant the first of the one-hour flights was probably around sunrise. I don't know about any of yous guys, but I sometimes experience a "mid-morning slump" in energy and attention levels when the first cup(s) of coffee wears off.. And, being the third flight of the day, our hero probably overlooked some of his usual first-flight-of-the-day procedures...like a mag check, pre-takeoff check...hover-power check, etc. Complacency kills, right? But come on, we see it a lot. And if we're honest, some of us are probably guilty of it too. Me, I'm not saying either way. All's I'm saying that I understand how this probably happened.

[havick]

FH1100 is right. Even experienced pilots put the afterburners on the B412 doing what they thought was the hydraulic interlock check, or trying to take off a hospital rooftop pad with only one engine at flight idle.

At least everyone walked away from this one with nothing but a bruised ego (assuming it was a key issue).

[mickjoebill]

A few basic details here:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/248409

Interesting that the nature of the flight is noted as Private, rather than Commercial?

Inputting the registration into the NTSB accident database returns zero results.

A hog wash?

mjb

[aa777888]

A hog wash?

mjb
You did not read post 128 above. If you do you will find out is in the NTSB system.

[Raffles S.A.]

I agree. When a mag switch is in the off position, the mags are shorted out. If one of those leads has come off for some reason, then that mag is live. Which is why mags should always be treated as live. Maybe one lead was disconnected for some reason with the vibration of flying, the disconnected lead touched something and then grounded the mag.

[FH1100 Pilot]

You nailed it, Raffles. I believe that is *exactly* what happened.

[212man]

Which is why mags should always be treated as live
Which is why pilots leaning against propellers having their photos taken, always raises my hackles!