Work Visa renewals [Archive]

Stone Temple Pilot

5th Mar 2021, 00:57

(which includes the locals who are trying to destroy other people careers just because their own company who they trusted so much fired them) but why would you wish on pilots at UO (who have absolutely nothing to do with the issue and have been minding their business while you lot fight it out) to lose their visas as well.

No AdB29 - it was not "our own company" - it was YOUR company - Cathay Pacific (that by the way hardly any KA pilot trusted), who fired us - while YOUR company will take our airplanes and routes and let YOUR junior crew with no PR operate them instead. It was not OUR own company. Jeez, even "our" CEO and DFO was sacked by CX!

As for UO - they are now as much part of the Cathay group as KA was. They will also take KA routes and aircraft. With respect to loyalty, contribution to the CX group and time spent building up the success that was indeed HKG aviation pre-covid, I think locals (and as "hyg" very neatly and correctly points out - not necessarily cadets staying at mum and dad's place, but very senior pilots with 20 plus years in HKG aviation, kids, families, homes in HKG, PR) deserve to fly those jets before South Americans or iCadets with 2 years contribution to the HKG workforce.

In a new world where you signed away from seniority by joining COS18, PR-status might well be one of the fair ways of upholding some sort of "seniority" in as much as who has contributed most to the Cathay Group or Hong Kong aviation in the past;
An iCadet on work visa with no particular affiliation with HKG who will shortly be flying the ex-KA Neos around Asia? Or a senior pilot, ethnicity aside, who has contributed 25 years to what made KA such a strong and succesful airline and who has his or her home here in Hong Kong with family and friendships build up locally?

It would suit you to be a bit more humble and having less prejudice about the "locals" who were just thrown under the bus by YOUR airline, and who are simply standing up for what is fair in THEIR home country.

Stone Temple Pilot

5th Mar 2021, 01:04

AdB29

How do you know foreginers are not asking for protection? Plenty of "foreginers" I know are seeing Hong Kong as their home and is fighting for their right to local jobs ahead of people who do not have PR.

"you don't destroy one job to save another" - maybe tell that to your employer? They seem to be experts at it. Not that they are doing much to protect the jobs they destroyed from us.

Good luck with it all.

852pilot

5th Mar 2021, 02:04

Because of your word, i have decided to go after those expat pilots(everyone has HK PR is considered local)

thanks for reaching out!
🤗

CodyBlade

5th Mar 2021, 03:47

contributed 25 years to what made KA such a strong and succesful airline

Errr.. You think this actually matters to the accountants?

Stone Temple Pilot

5th Mar 2021, 06:05

Haha, no way it does - I have had enough time in the industry to know that.
I did however think that seniority mattered, but oh well, another blow to the industry in general. It's becoming the gift that keeps giving.

I just thought I would include that in my reply to the young AdB29 as he bluntly stated:

"They have been paying their dues for years and ”contributing to society” but now that will all go to waste because some young boy who still stays with his parents ran to legco because his beloved company cut his job. (Guess they didn’t care about you as much as you thought)"

- about the pilots coming up to their PR, i.e. less than 7 years in the Cathay Group pilot seats.

By contrast, I wanted to show that quite a few Hong Kong pilots - western or local - with PR have contributed 25 years or more to build a succesful and strong airline - and IMHO should have a place in the future of HK aviation in front of non-local pilots on short-term work visas.
THESE guys have paid their dues for years and "contributed to society".

To further add that their "beloved company" cut their jobs - is just plainly insulting. The whole termination package had Cathay Pacific and green colours smothered all over it with letters of "Dear Colleague" from managers no-one in KA had ever heard of.
Thanks also to AdB29 for assessing my attitude based on a discussion forum and linking that to whatever the future may hold for me in aviation.

main_dog

5th Mar 2021, 06:14

about the pilots coming up to their PR, i.e. less than 7 years in the Cathay Group pilot seats

Not quite true, plenty of CX guys on bases. In some cases they are now in HKG, but for less than 7 years, following base closures. They may have “paid their dues” and “contributed to society’ (ie full HK income tax and accumulated seniority) for 15/20+ years, and yet they don’t have a PR either.

Stone Temple Pilot

5th Mar 2021, 07:05

Absolutely correct, and I know quite a few of them too.
But I think you are missing the point and they were not the ones AdB29 were referring to.

If they are, I fully agree and stand corrected - these guys have my full sympathy too.
Although, contrary to quite a few senior pilots sacrificed from KA and still residing in HKG, these guys are probably not inclined to take a 320 F/O job with HKE - of course all depending on the circumstances making them leave their basing in the first place.

volare_737

5th Mar 2021, 07:50

You guys all worry too much ! The terms and conditions at HKE are really an insult to the pilot community living in Hong Kong. So I would not worry too much, as I guess most guys will look for greener pastures once the industry picks up. If they are not then I don't know anymore !

Stone Temple Pilot

5th Mar 2021, 08:57

No, AdB29 - read it again - I said "contrary to quite a few senior pilots sacrificed from KA and still residing in HKG, these guys are probably not inclined to take a 320 F/O job with HKE" - in other words, while your based colleagues may not be super interested in this job (due to the fact that they would have an overseas passport to live and work in their home country), many locals here would be dying to get even an F/O job with HKE - their alternative now is a desk job at 20K/month or drive a KMB bus.
In fact many I know who are still in HKG (it is their home after all!) have zero income for the moment, and haven't had that for 3 and a half months since being thrown under that bus (a bus that seemed far bigger than a KMB double-decker!).

I would NOT want a junior HKE F/O to loose his or her job for a senior guy who "won't even accept those conditions". But I firmly believe that the PR holder should be given the opportunity. The junior HKE/CX F/O has less of a home here than someone who has spent the last 7 years plus here or indeed the whole life.

From the immigration website:
"the applicant has a confirmed offer of employment and is employed in a job relevant to his academic qualifications or work experience that cannot be readily taken up by the local work force;"

Busbitch

5th Mar 2021, 09:59

Could be worse I guess, like if you were an Aussie based Pilot, completely dumped by the company today. No pay check until the schedule returns to pre covid levels ......Hope you can drive a truck !

Harbour Dweller

5th Mar 2021, 11:42

Unfortunately the Aussie guys are late to the truck jobs. They were taken long ago by QF and VA international guys all without a paycheck too.

cabbages

5th Mar 2021, 15:05

Sorry to hear that Busbitch. Are the based guys being offered redundancy as an alternative? I know its not for everyone but surely the company must give an option for redundancy payment, or is zero pay the new way of sacking people without making them redundant?

FlyingNun

5th Mar 2021, 17:08

That would be illegal in Europe. I don't know about Oz law, but I would've thought it may be similar to UK law.
In the UK, you can claim Redundancy in this situation.

flyboy007

5th Mar 2021, 17:21

No redundancy options offered. No right of return to Hkg allowed, despite the company seeking more “volunteers” for the closed loops; Aus based pilots are not allowed to volunteer. A one liner in the bottom of the company email mentioning the peer assistance network to tick the duty of care requirement.

Flying Clog

5th Mar 2021, 18:00

It's very simple really - close all the bases, force them all to return to HKG on POS18 as (an option B to redundancy), and no one in their right bloody mind will, because you'd be an absolute lunatic to take that offer. Easy cull. Get it over with.

Hong Kong is not sustainable on COS18 unless you're living with your mum sipping noodles.

Most of my mates are Dragon and I envy them now. A quick slit to the throat, and move on, as opposed to a painful drawn out death, which we're going through at Cathay.

Do I agree with it, of course not. But Cathay is dead in the water. It's finished. If you haven't already planned your exit strategy, like all the HKG based pilots are working actively on, then more fool you.

Cathay is dead. Get out now. No sympathy from me for all the guys kicking their feet up for 12 months on 50 or 80 percent pay. Sorry.

Busbitch

5th Mar 2021, 23:33

Flying Clog, I hope I get to meet you in person one day, preferably when my children are not around....Also I would take a redundancy immediately if offered.

BuzzBox

5th Mar 2021, 23:56

FlyingNun

It's legal in Australia, under the Fair Work Act 2009. The legislation allows employers to stand down employees in certain circumstances if they cannot be usefully employed, including "for any cause for which the employer cannot reasonably be held responsible". The employer is not required to make payments to the affected employees during the stand down period. There is no requirement for the employer to offer redundancy, nor is there any provision for the employee to claim such.

cabbages

6th Mar 2021, 06:47

Buzz box, Busbitch, I’m appalled at this. Is there a time limit on this zero pay or is it open ended? I’m not trying to :mad: stir but Is the AoA providing financial support? Flying Clog does not speak for me or anyone else I know. For what it’s worth, you will always have my support.

Oasis

6th Mar 2021, 08:02

Flying Clog

Sounds to me like you are probably on the freighter fleet. 'i'm alright jack!' comes to mind.

Donblock

6th Mar 2021, 08:21

This is what I can’t understand, it’s nit I don’t want to, but all this doesn’t add up.

So, I’m employed and have a contract till 60. But my working visa is only for 3 years and is expiring. My company (indecently is the sponsor) assists with the paperwork and we apply (it’s both that are involved) and the application goes to Immigration.
1. I’ve been a good boy, paid my taxes, didn’t get into trouble etc
2. Company sponsors me etc.

result: immigration give me 3months only and subsequently nada!

If something has changed, shouldn’t the immigration dept announce in the interest of the public what they intend to do?

it’s not about CX, UO, HX etc...this impact all of no PR here trying to earn an honest buck.

I understand that companies are in a dilema and want to blame the employee that they’ve failed to maintain a work visa and get fired (cheap solutions). They should really fight for their employees, they should care... it’s not easy to replace anyone in a company. It’s not about being type rated and ready to go, there’s more to it in the interest of safety and the operators culture.

on the other hand, a few guys who are really caught up in this dilema, syndicate and get some good law form together and contest the precedence that’s now become a norm.

Fly747

6th Mar 2021, 08:42

If he’s on the freighter then “luck of the draw” comes to mind.

hyg

6th Mar 2021, 12:56

cabbages

no limit... can go on until there's a reasonable challenge to the company's case

852pilot

6th Mar 2021, 15:00

Same tokens to KA local cadets, company paid million dollars EACH for training but end up failing everyone of them. While expats is even more expensive to maintain, I doubt they would really care.

Table For 1

6th Mar 2021, 15:17

Oasis

Just remind me how much support you offered the freighter guys when you were struggling with your 2.5 LH flights a month on the Barbie jet....

And you lot seriously wonder why the mediocre Swire Princes and Princesses run rings round you.😂

Flying Clog

6th Mar 2021, 16:21

Oasis, I'm not only 'alright', but saving your bacon after decades of abuse as a dirty freighter pilot, holding the line, not acknowledging OCNs while you lot kicked back collecting overtime every month.

FOs on the barbie jet were earning more than Captains on the 747 for years.

So no sympathy from me. Best thing that could ever happen now is that Cathay drops the passenger operation and let's all the pax pilots go, and CX goes ahead as a standalone freighter operation or joins forces with Air Hong Kong/DHL.

No tears will be shed for the based pax pilots, or the ones in HKG for that matter.

Sorry.

LLLQNH

6th Mar 2021, 18:09

So does anyone actually know the truth about the work permit situation because all this is nonsense. I know for a fact that visas are being extended still, be it for 3 months at a time I know that not one single person has been sent packing because they aren't PR. So anyone have any real facts or information to share?

I gather even Senior management don't know what's happening and have been told to just plan on the status quo until they hear otherwise? Sounds to me like the government just want to sweep it under the rug but are waiting for the next news cycle!

Oasis

6th Mar 2021, 18:22

Flying clog, no apology needed.

Not sure giving up the pax fleet on the eve of winning the battle with Covid is a good idea, as I am sure lots of people want to travel, if not only to escape Hong Kong!

Stay safe, enjoy your flying, it is missed by many.

BuzzBox

6th Mar 2021, 22:28

cabbages

Thanks; it's open ended, but my guess is it will be a long time before Oz-based Airbus pilots are recalled (or paid). If they were to offer redundancy, I'd be gone tomorrow.

Landflap

7th Mar 2021, 09:27

Donbloc: Doesn't your "contract to age 60" still have the "three months notice on either side" bit ? Brings to mind a colleague & friend of mine who, in the ME took this type of fight (and lost) with his employer for clarity.

The company had ex-pats working on three year contracts. Employees fought for ages to be on 'full career' contracts. Company agreed. So the guys went from three years security to 'open ended' but now with three months notice. Employees thought they had won (!).

The 'Age over 60' was just as farcical. A select few, at age 57, were given conversion courses to keep them until age 65. Catch was ,one year contracts with a three year bond .(honestly !).

Mate fought all of this and while on leave, company failed to renew work/res visa. He got back in on a visit visa. Gotcha ! fired as the company claimed the Ministry was unable to issue a Work/ Res visa on a visit visa. He'd been there 17 years.

Hope you chaps fair better...

Donblock

7th Mar 2021, 10:24

Yes, some contacts are till 60, some are for 3 years then reviewed to see if you’ve been ‘a good boy’ then renewed to 60.

There is a clause for 3 months either side, but, I would think the intention of HR is to use the contract clause that you didn’t keep a valid work visa (even if it’s not your fault).

In all fairness, I would say any company in HK would prefer to hire Local / PR boys, rated etc when the time comes to recruitment. Unfortunately no one is recruiting for now. I don’t think many will recruit for awhile to be honest.

All this was kicked off when KA was unfortunately closed down and quite right the locals / PRs kicked up a fuss for visa renewals.

Now immigration have their knickers on a twist and not renewing visas for guys who have valid contracts and in employment.

Even if companies played a dirty game and got rid of the boys with no visa it doesn’t mean they’ll go out on a Recriitment rampage tomorrow. Especially is they are letting people go as part of a redundancy plan.

Ah well. It’s is what it is till you fight back.

Stay Safe out there chaps...vaccination next week.

wongsuzie

7th Mar 2021, 10:29

Of course a employment contract will have a 'get out' clause for both sides. Both side have to be protected.

This is Asia not such thing as an iron rice bowl.

KABOY

7th Mar 2021, 10:56

If CX could look beyond the myopic Swire Prince attitude they would have integrated the business of KA and stood down the pilots awaiting a recovery.

The shotgun approach is no different to QR, thinking they will abuse the HK employment laws as they are a big employer in HK. Unfortunately they are not part of the CCP, which is pushing back against the scions of HK.

HK has been an aviation hub for decades with the mainland being one of their biggest markets, but now the mainland is pushing back and creating their own brand of prestige. CX will face a struggle with this new dynamic.

hyg

7th Mar 2021, 11:00

wongsuzie

There is.... if you work for the hk gov and pledge your loyalty to CCP and give up your foreign nationality.....:ok:

LongTimeInCX

11th Mar 2021, 20:16

When you say “our”, which company are you talking about?

LLLQNH

11th Mar 2021, 21:30

Donblock

Can you elaborate on the 3 mo is the final result? So what they just keep giving 3 month extensions or you get one 3 month extension then on your way out you go you can't work here anymore? Very quiet from official channels, potentially massive exposure here for all airlines in Hong Kong.

GMEDX

11th Mar 2021, 22:25

This is why they said this week with the results that they weren’t expecting any more job cuts. They don’t need to cut jobs, the visa issue will do it for them.

viking avenger

11th Mar 2021, 23:41

And ask for more closed loop volunteers, while leaving the Australians, many whom have PR and the right to work in HKG unpaid.

GMEDX

12th Mar 2021, 02:45

The company would prefer that they use their leave and long-leave up. They would of course get paid for that.

ACMS

12th Mar 2021, 05:09

Yep, that won’t take long..........gee maybe they could ask the same of HK crew too, now there’s a thought....

BuzzBox

12th Mar 2021, 06:10

I think they've already done that, but what about the other bases?

Jnr380

17th Mar 2021, 16:04

A friend of mine (non-aviation worker) was unable to renew her Visa because she is a holder of a UK passport. Seems the UK/CCP spat just went up a level

Ecam321

30th Mar 2021, 11:24

Any updates on the visa renewal issue ?
Any pilot actually been denied a visa and sent packing ?
All I’ve heard is that pilots that have had to apply for visa renewal in February, are still waiting for a reply from immigration but no actual denials yet.

From a distance

30th Mar 2021, 23:41

The official line is that “it is being handled at the highest level.” What does that mean. Anyone’s guess. Probably that the directors of the company are involved. So either, not even they can get any traction on this or it’s not really a priority.

I suspect that soon as HKG is drawn willingly or otherwise in to mainlands embrace things will change. Having a large base of foreigners in a Chinese city does not enhance “social harmony and cohesion”, which means if you try to undermine our power base we are going to mess you up.

Look at all the comments from high level officials about black hand involvement in HKG’s political unrest. Foreigners will increasingly be seen as a threat. If you have a US, Australian, Canadian, Kiwi, British passport (Five eyes countries) good luck with a visa.

Start offshoring your assets because there’s an ill wind starting to blow in from the North.

CodyBlade

31st Mar 2021, 02:22

hyg

you forgot the main criteria: you hv to be enthic Chinese.

CodyBlade

31st Mar 2021, 02:25

Foreigners will increasingly be seen as a threat.

They used the word "unreliable" interesting choice of word eh..

btrdux

31st Mar 2021, 03:22

Saw a post on FB on one of the Australian quarantine groups that said something like this, if I may quote:

Im in Hong Kong, but Australian citizens.
Was hoping to travel to Sydney on the 10th with husband, 2.5yo and 4 week old. We have packed up our life here, sold everything and about to ship back what we have left and move out of our apartment.
Due to circumstances outside our control- we have expired Hong Kong visas. The immigration department here and the company my husband works for arent seeing eye to eye (we aren't the only family in this position, but in the mean time also have no access to basic public healthcare because of the expired visas), and they wont be renewed any time soon.
Immigration wont allow us to leave HK on our current expired visas - so we would need to move onto tourist visas to leave. Which means my husband can no longer receive a salary.
Im considering just rolling the kids and I onto the tourist visas so I can leave with them alone, and husband stay wait out a visa resolution here.

Don't know for sure which company she talks about but CX would be a good guess.

bacou

31st Mar 2021, 06:37

Ecam321

Not sure for CX crews, but for other airlines (even those that are flying cargo) it's apparently only a 3 months renewal with no possibility to extend further.

Rie

31st Mar 2021, 07:03

The CX guys I know have all been reapplying successfully over the last few months. Might be a loophole with CX? I heard rumours of the 3 month no further in a WhatsApp group last week though.

TimeToWhine

31st Mar 2021, 08:16

At the moment 3 month visa extentions are only being given to those who can show immigration that they have upcoming duties. Those that have nothing but G days are out of luck and just have to sit tight with an expired visa until/if this whole thing gets sorted. Once expired it’s all catch 22; can’t get a visa unless you have work, can’t get work unless you have a visa.

Lots of guys sitting around right now that aren’t able to put their kids in HK schools at the moment, no access to public healthcare or use of medical insurance, can’t sign a new lease on an apartment etc. Also spouse can’t work unless their company is willing to sponsor them which most aren’t. Advised not to leave HK as wont be able to return on an expired visa. I’m on my second three month renewal now but I’m fortunate enough to have a very busy roster. Not sure there will be a third but then maybe it’s for the best and I will just go back home to be with my wife and kids permanently.

It’s clear foreigners aren’t really welcome here. This will become more and more evident in time. Why gamble a full career in HK for very inadequate pay living in a shoebox if you will get thrown out sometime down the road anyway, only to start a again in your home county. May as well do that now so you’re at least ahead by then.

In the mean while, getting any information from the company is like pulling teeth. It seems like a low priority for them or they don’t really care. Even if there is no update to report, at least state so in the newsletter so we know they haven’t forgotten about it or give a damn.

Landflap

31st Mar 2021, 09:30

Yes it is a "Gotcha" if the Government and or Company do not, really, want you there . CX will just blame the Visa dept for being unable to renew the visa. Gove dept will blame CX for not showing that the employee is, actually working. A horrible, bad taste in the mouth way to end what was , once, a most enviable position.

Progress Wanchai

31st Mar 2021, 16:31

TimeToWhine,

Never forget why you came here. For the same reason I did. No company in our home countries wanted to employ us or didn’t think we were worth what Cathay thought we were worth.

It’s the same reason we stayed during the handover when many were leaving and property prices were plummeting. The same reason we stayed during the first “sign or be fired” in ‘99. The same reason we stayed during the 49er travesty. During the first SARS outbreak which affected Hong Kong worse than any other city. During the GFC and the company’s attempted attack on expat conditions leading to COS08. It’s the reason we signed COS18, a permanent and severe degradation to our conditions while management take a meager temporary cut.
Do not think you’re special or deserving of being treated with respect. The very reason we’re at CX is because we’re deserving of nothing more.

We are mercenaries, each and every one of us. As soon as the conditions, whether money or lifestyle, are better elsewhere we’ll leave.
You joined the company of the 49ers. You signed a sign or be fired contract not 5 months ago, the second time the company has done that. Yet you somehow think you’ll get a regular communication on a work visa? What does management have to do before you understand where you are and who you work for?

Yes, leaving is a very good option, just as it was for those that left before you giving you an opportunity that wasn’t available in your home country. But inevitably no opportunity comes without risk. Combine CX and Hong Kong and there’s plenty of risk v reward considerations.

Hong Kong isn’t the only country not renewing work visas for pilots. Australia is doing the same for 457 visa holders. A temporary work visa will never offer the same level of protections as citizenship does. It might appear to be xenophobic and it certainly can seem heartless, but it’s all part of every expatriates cost benefit equation.

666305

1st Apr 2021, 01:03

I think Hong Kong has so far been the best place to be as an expat, at least our visas have been somewhat renewed albeit only for 3 months. In any other country, our visas would have already been denied especially with so many local pilots on the streets right now jobless. Let’s hope CX continues to have enough power over the government so we’ll get to keep our jobs while this whole thing blows over. It doesn’t help that those local boys are trying their best to lobby the immigration department to follow the local employment policy strictly. Thankfully immigration dept seems to be ignoring them!

Backupnav

1st Apr 2021, 02:49

I am feeling nauseous reading your post. It is wrong at every level.

CodyBlade

1st Apr 2021, 03:15

3 months contract is generous.

Remember what happened to the SQ expats.

HKbuspilot

1st Apr 2021, 03:48

The final paragraph of a government press release attached:

In view of the local economic downturn and rising unemployment
rate amid the COVID-19 pandemic, the Government understands the
public's concerns and reaffirms the established policy of upholding
priority employment of the local workforce. In recent months, the
ImmD has been closely monitoring the employment situation of
different industries, including the aviation industry as referred
to in the question. In view of the latest employment situation of
the local aviation industry, the ImmD has, after consultation with
the relevant bureaux and departments, critically scrutinised
applications from the industry made under GEP and ASMTP for
employment visa/entry permit and extension of stay. In fact, the
ImmD did not approve any new employment visas/entry permits for
non-local pilots to work in Hong Kong in the past three months.

Best of luck to all regardless of which side of the fence you sit.

Gaisha

1st Apr 2021, 04:52

what a load of BS ! SWH clearly has a few loose screws. You DO NOT have to undergo a new type rating if you already have one to work for CX. There is no such thing as a KA type rating. It’s a 320 rating done by KA. There were former KA crew who went to AHK on the 330. They did not have to undergo a new type rating. They did a OCC to be trained on AHK aircraft.
those who were employed by KA still have valid ratings and licenses and if there is a void as a result of non renewals of visas, the former KA crew should be top of the pecking order. They are the most experienced narrow body drivers in HK and familiar with China ops.
swh... you really are a half wit aren’t you ...

Memorylapse

1st Apr 2021, 04:53

Simple fact of matter is those employed by CX have valid licences and type ratings, those formally employed by KA don’t have a valid license, nor do they have a valid type rating.

Oh really! Please do let us know where you got that from. All the SO’s in CX does not have type ratings either. Zero, nothing. Good go at an April’s fools joke though!

LLLQNH

1st Apr 2021, 07:05

swh

I think your confused, an ex Ka pilot or any airline pilot anywhere in the world will always have an ATPL/CPL once they have earned it. It isn't restricted to one airline (unless you were an MPL cadet) it can be used at any airline (might need to do a conversion if going to another country) where you are correct although the way you say it is wrong is regarding type ratings and being a qualified airline pilot for that company!

If a former KA 320 or 330 pilot were to be hired at CX or HKA/HKE then yes you are right they would have to redo some of the training programme at the airline they are joining (Indoc, ground school, sims) however CX could apply to the CAD to have a short course done for them a lot like how the DEFOs at cx do shorter courses than the cadets.

bacou

1st Apr 2021, 07:39

SWH
Maybe you should have a look at AIC 24 / 20 dated 05 November 2020.
Title is "FACILITATION TO HONG KONG PROFESSIONAL PILOT’S LICENCE HOLDERS RENEWAL OF AIRCRAFT RATING AND INSTRUMENT RATING"

doublelift

1st Apr 2021, 08:55

Dun forget there is about 30 local SO fired by CX as well, they can readily replace any expat SO now with CX.

LLLQNH

1st Apr 2021, 08:56

this is all accurate, however the fact remains an ex Ka pilot could be trained to be a cx pilot! They could even be trained quicker than doing an upgrade on a current cx SO to be FOs.

Dragon Pacific

1st Apr 2021, 09:01

And of course KA pilots were trained in the CX FTC. Cathay has all their training records, they were Cathay Group pilots. They deserve their jobs back if local/PR in preference to those who haven’t done their seven.

LLLQNH

1st Apr 2021, 09:46

Sadly the KA guys and girls jobs are gone forever, KA has gone!

At the end of the day KA pilots and cabin crew were not CX pilots or cabin crew the fact that they worked for a regional/subsidiary is irrelevant in determining if they should get jobs at Cathay Mainline or HKE. This whole thing applies just as equally to a redundant HKA pilot as it does an ex KA pilot.

The ISSUE here is that there are people working as airline pilots in HKG for various HKG companies on work permits, when there are qualified/capable people who do not require work-permits in HKG who are currently unemployed and would like to work as an airline pilot again. After all I am sure everyone would be just as passionate about this if Ka were still around and HKA had a lot of unemployed PR holders on the street wanting jobs......right?

bacou

1st Apr 2021, 10:46

Who's flying CX A321 NEOs these days, Is it the ex-KA pilots who transferred to CX as STCs?
How much training did they have to do before they could fly the repainted aircraft?
I believe it's none and on the contrary they are probably the ones who signed the AR/IR for the first A320 CX pilots.

With CAD approval anything can be done, probably same with Immigration approval,
Let's wait and see what's happening next, maybe a bit of redundancy in CX so that PR can be rehired quicker when pilots will be needed.

Gaisha

1st Apr 2021, 11:21

LLLQNH

this is where you are wrong. The jobs are still there but it’s being transferred to pilots in CX some of whom do not have PR status and as long as there are fully qualified pilots in HK, they should be considered as pe the immigration requirement for visa renewal.

I think the non renewals would be a gift to cathay as they can cut down the man power as they please without offering redundancy pay and when the market picks up again they can just tap off the local supply of pilots when required.

Walkingthedog

1st Apr 2021, 12:17

Gaisha

It is of interest to note that the formation of a cadet scheme was a “requirement”. Only by demonstrating a local training scheme could the incumbents justify recruiting expats (having demonstrated that they had done their best to further local talent). Furthermore in the UK/USA the buying and closure of a competitor would have fallen foul of monopolies and mergers/anti trust legislation albeit in the case of KA it took some years. One could argue the intent to stifle competition was there since the 80s?

The HK Governments view of work visas is clear:

At present, non-local professionals nationals may be admitted into Hong Kong for employment under the General Employment Policy and the Admission Scheme for Mainland Professionals and Talents if, among other things: (i) there is a genuine job vacancy; (ii) the applicant has a confirmed offer of employment and is employed in a job relevant to his academic qualifications or work experience that cannot be readily taken up by the local work force; and (iii) the remuneration package is broadly commensurate with the prevailing market level for professionals in Hong Kong.

In processing each application for entry and extension of stay for employment in Hong Kong, the Immigration Department (ImmD) acts in accordance with the laws and immigration policies. ImmD will examine whether the applicant meets the specific eligibility criteria under the relevant admission scheme and normal immigration requirements, and will take into account the individual circumstances of each application in deciding whether to approve or refuse the application concerned.

Make what you will of the above. I personally don’t see how HK can develop as the Greater Bays hub unless we nurture local talent. One does not do that by chucking them on the scrap heap. All the more so where one continually hears “I’m leaving as soon as I can” from a large number of expatriates.

In my home country there was no way we could or would have been replaced by “imported talent” unless there was a clearly demonstrated requirement.

As to my career as an expatriate in SE Asia and the ME I took it as a given that I was there on sufferance and that I could vote with my feet.
The compensation I received was based upon that supposition. Obviously that has changed.

doublelift

1st Apr 2021, 12:21

swh

what i see is a man living in his own world loll

Dragon Pacific

2nd Apr 2021, 01:23

Hear it from the Gov, quote:

In view of the local economic downturn and rising unemployment rate amid the COVID-19 pandemic, the Government understands the public's concerns and reaffirms the established policy of upholding priority employment of the local workforce. In recent months, the ImmD has been closely monitoring the employment situation of different industries, including the aviation industry as referred to in the question. In view of the latest employment situation of the local aviation industry, the ImmD has, after consultation with the relevant bureaux and departments, critically scrutinised applications from the industry made under GEP and ASMTP for employment visa/entry permit and extension of stay. In fact, the ImmD did not approve any new employment visas/entry permits for non-local pilots to work in Hong Kong in the past three months.

Ends/Wednesday, February 24, 2021
Issued at HKT 18:35

https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/202102/24/P2021022400591.htm?fontSize=1

Progress Wanchai

2nd Apr 2021, 01:39

Eidolon,

Get your head around that this has nothing to do with who Cathay might want to retain now or employ in the future. This is purely a Hong Kong Immigration Department issue and the director will make decisions based upon his interpretation of the GEP and not based upon Cathay’s current or future recruitment policy. Keep in mind the criteria for the renewal of a work visa is identical to the criteria for an initial issue.

Let’s also not forget that the aggrieved PR pilots aren’t just former KA crew. There are also both former and current CX crew who have filed grievances with the Immigration Department. Numerous based crew who hold PR status have requested to be based back in Hong Kong but their request has been denied due to no positions being available. CX management now find themselves in the untenable position of writing letters to its own PR pilots claiming they have no work for them yet are writing letters to the Immigration Department arguing the case for temporary work visas.

The Director of Immigration will decide which argument is more valid.

Walkingthedog

2nd Apr 2021, 02:15

Isn't odd how CX always get themselves in such jams as this? It’s not as if they didn’t know about it.

666305

3rd Apr 2021, 01:32

Dragon Pacific

It's nice to see how the ImmD has carefully worded their response to appease the public whilst still "RENEWING" work visas in the background. ImmD clearly, with the help of CX management I'm sure, see the value which we expats bring to the table. The local KA boys just don't have the international exposure that we have and is much needed for long-haul international flying. It's not our fault that they shut down KA and it's only natural that all staff in KA were terminated, regardless of citizenship status. At the end of the day, we're 2 different airlines and KA was the subsidiary.

swh

3rd Apr 2021, 01:35

Progress Wanchai

Nice April fools wind up.

That is like saying a qualified accountant with a PR that works for HSBC in the U.K. can go to the immigration department in HKG and demand they get employed in HKG with HSBC and displace someone on a work permit.

Not going to happen.

666305

3rd Apr 2021, 01:36

Exactly, the fact that they lost their jobs has nothing to do with us.

Walkingthedog

3rd Apr 2021, 02:06

swh

I think you need to check your facts. People have already left because their work permits were not renewed. Furthermore if you lose your job you automatically lose your work visa.

doublelift

3rd Apr 2021, 03:13

swh;

That is exactly what written in the GEP. Not exactly displace someone position on working permit, but then they claim that there a readily workforce to do the same job. If immD strictly follow the black and white policy, visa holder should start packing

Progress Wanchai

3rd Apr 2021, 03:30

swh

I honestly couldn’t tell you without knowing HSBC’s Permanent Basings Policy Agreement. Do you know it? Do you even know your own?

Management are once again tied in knots in a mess of their own making thanks in no small part to Swire’s brilliant rotational management policy which encourages short term knee jerk policy on the run rather than long term strategic decisions.

Will IB Fayed

3rd Apr 2021, 05:19

666305

Well that's the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Nice one.

MENELAUS

3rd Apr 2021, 05:28

Agreed. Utter horse 💩. Long haul international flying, the vagaries of fatigue aside, is some of the easiest that can be done. Invariably in to highly regulated airfields where arrivals are straightforward. Busy perhaps, but straightforward. Unlike any PRC airfield I’ve ever been to. And that was our KA colleagues’ bread and butter.

Gaisha

3rd Apr 2021, 06:09

im sure there are challenges in long haul flying too... like which meal you’ll pick out of the 5 of offer and whether or not you should visit the Louvre or notre damn on your G day in Paris. My heart bleeds for you guys.

MENELAUS

3rd Apr 2021, 06:38

More of an Hôtel Biron man myself. And beating the SO to the one remaining burger was always a toughie.
I suspect day in day out Chinese turnarounds in some of the worst weather out there and with deliberately obstructive ‘help’ has the edge however.

Will IB Fayed

3rd Apr 2021, 06:38

Don't group us together. That was written by some sandwich eating SO who boasts about his 400hrs Instructing at Jandakot "experience" prior to joining CX.

ascalehero

3rd Apr 2021, 07:24

I'm sorry dragon boys you cant have your cake and eat it too. For the last 10 odd years you were happy that cathay and dragon were separate companies whilst you enjoyed your separate and greater annual leave, housing and block hour pay etc. And if you wanted to come over to cathay during that time and accept a pay cut the door was open through the offer of direct entry Fos.
Don't now go claiming that we are one airline and that you should have the jobs of those who chose to come and throw there eggs in cathay's basket which turned out to be a wise decision

Walkingthedog

3rd Apr 2021, 07:29

Swh

Ask your DFO what he thinks the future holds.

doublelift

3rd Apr 2021, 12:00

swh

let’s not forget the 30 or so Local jobless SO from CX. Are they ready workforce then, should all the expats SO start packing now then.

bacou

4th Apr 2021, 00:42

ascalehero

I hope it made you happy saying that :mad:, I can't find anything that's true in all your fact listing.
We KA boys and girls are not asking to steal your job,
We only want that immigration follows labor and immigration law which says that priority must be given to local workforce like any other country.

Walkingthedog

4th Apr 2021, 04:40

ascalehero

I think the issue is taking our aircraft and routes again! (remember the 744)You dont seen to mind the 8 direct entry captains from Ka nor the direct entry GMIOC or DCP Airbus! Nor for that matter the 744 Captains that came across,

It looks from the outside that CX can do as they please with their crews and having scrapped seniority will continue to do so.
The issue is can they do as the please with immigration law?

I personally think they've opened a pandoras box with this one not just externally but with all the based crews some of whom are very senior but not PR.
In the long run it will resolve itself as CX will eventually have to recruit and then we shall see what happens.
At the moment CX is grossly overmanned and bleeding. The work visa issue gives them the perfect excuse to yet again do as they please.

I quote John Slosar “we are one airline same team same dream” Did we really believe that?

Yawn Im going back to retirement good luck with ensuing mess.

Progress Wanchai

4th Apr 2021, 05:49

swh,

I respect that facts don’t matter for the current generation but they do for the Immigration Department.

What was the curriculum of training required for the KA pilots now flying at CX? Whether airbus crew or 747 crew.
What was the required curriculum for CX airbus pilots to now be flying at AHK?

Dragon Pacific

4th Apr 2021, 06:10

swh knows the answer but he likes to make stuff up.
The magnificent eight just had to go to uniform stores and swop their red ties for a green one, a name badge, a belt and some different buttons for their jacket. Who was gonna test them? No-one; they then went to Toulouse and started picking up Neos and collecting sheds from Alice. Oh, and became managers and DCP etc.
The 744 guys years ago just did two sims and four sectors and away they went.
The rated guys going to AHK from KA only do CRM and a couple of sims and AEP unless of course they need to do a rating.
Any KA pilot can readily fly an Airbus for CX or AHK. There might just be an argument that the Triple or Jumbo involves a bit more.

pfvspnf

4th Apr 2021, 11:53

What about tourist visa ? When will quarantine hotel stop ? Wife is a Korean, i was in Middle East . When can we enter

Progress Wanchai

4th Apr 2021, 12:59

Dragon Pacific

So a jump and slide, couple of sims in an underutilized sim and some sectors that are happening anyway.

Will be interesting to see how the Director of Immigration defines “cannot be readily taken up by the local work force”. Particularly remembering this isn’t CX’s first rodeo. There was a long argument with the Immigration Department that training i-cadets for 18 months was necessary as there weren’t sufficient numbers of locals with the necessary cross section of talents required to be an airline pilot. If there was difficulty in arguing an 18 month course for foreigners was necessary, there will be an even harder argument that a month long course for locals is unnecessary.

sybil

4th Apr 2021, 21:24

In the heated context of this discussion, does a PR actually have any practical preferential status? No doubt being a HK passport holder affords preferential treatment. But a foreign subject holding PR in this new HK?

hkgfooey

5th Apr 2021, 02:50

The magnificent eight just had to go to uniform stores and swop their red ties for a green one, a name badge, a belt and some different buttons for their jacket.

There was 8 at one stage. 5 months later, not one of them has performed a commercial flight under the CX AOC that I am aware of.

Who was gonna test them?

That is one of the key issues, CAD TRE authorizations under CAD360 are only valid within the airline they are issued to. When KA ceased to exist, so did those TRE authorizations.

No-one; they then went to Toulouse and started picking up Neos and collecting sheds from Alice.

They were not done as a commercial operation under the CX AOC.

The 744 guys years ago just did two sims and four sectors and away they went.

That simply is not true, and fact is not all of them passed.

The rated guys going to AHK from KA only do CRM and a couple of sims and AEP unless of course they need to do a rating.

Again this is not true, CAD360 stipulates “An operator is responsible for ensuring that all persons have the training, experience and practice and have undergone the periodical tests specified in Part B of Schedule 11 to the AN(HK)O, before acting as crew members on any flight for the purpose of public transport.”

Prior to operating a public transport flight, and commencement of LFUS, the records must show that a pilot has satisfactorily completed the appropriate approved ground and flight simulator course and if applicable aircraft base training. It therefore follows that a valid PC form shall be part of the training records. They must show that the pilot is properly licensed with a Group 1 or P2X endorsement on his Hong Kong License and that all Schedule 9 and 11 and CAD 360 requirements have been met including evidence of competence in AEP/SEPT, RVSM, LVO, GPS approaches, RNP and any special airspace qualification, CRM, route and airfield qualification.”

From the start of ground school to the completion of a line check is at minimum of around 3 months, the cost of that training would be close the cost of a full years FOs base salary. It is neither quick, or cheap to get a new pilot online.

Any KA pilot can readily fly an Airbus for CX or AHK.

CX has interviewed and employed pilots from other HK operators in the past including CR Airways, Hong Kong Airlines, Oasis, and Dragon, not all pass the interview, not all pass the training.

Having a qualification does not mean an employer is obligated to employ someone, that is what the interview process is about, to screen out those who are not suitable. How many thousands of people with PRs do you think miss out on a cadet pilot course, or even as a role as cabin crew ? Even KA didn’t employ some pilots that applied from Hing Kong airlines with A320/A330 type rating and employed non type rated people on work permits.

doublelift

5th Apr 2021, 03:05

hkgfooey

you have neglected the fact that cx sacked some of their local pilots as well. They are just 1/2 PC away from flying again. What about them? They obviously are ready workforce

Progress Wanchai

5th Apr 2021, 03:27

As are the based crew who hold PR status that are asking to return to Hong Kong in accordance with the PBPA.

The training process for the CX airbus crew who have temporarily transferred to the AHK A330 fleet was straightforward and expeditious.

EddyTemple

5th Apr 2021, 04:54

Here you go sybil

According to section 27 (http://www.hklii.org/hk/legis/en/ord/542/s27.html) of the Legislative Council Ordinance (http://www.hklii.org/hk/legis/en/ord/542/), the right to vote is also conferred with permanent residence.

Under normal circumstances, only permanent residents are entitled to social benefits such as public housing and assistance payments (e.g. Comprehensive Social Security Assistance).

Broadly speaking, the rights of permanent residence are enjoyed equally by all Hong Kong permanent residents, regardless of whether they are Chinese or foreign citizens. However, those who are Chinese citizens have some additional rights. For example, Chinese citizens who are also Hong Kong permanent residents are entitled to apply for Hong Kong SAR passports and home return permits (for travel to Mainland China), and can also hold senior posts in the Hong Kong SAR Government.

The link for your reference to avoid squabbling like little girls : Hong Kong Permanent Resident (https://clic.org.hk/en/topics/immigration/hk_permanent_residence/q2)

More concerning for those in management and human resource positions are the penalties for making false declarations on the ID 990B & ID 91 Forms. If you are found to be guilty of making false declarations on these documents you are liable to $150,000 Fine AND 14 years imprisonment. These include false statements, declarations and authenticity of the information provided.

I wish you well.

666305

9th Apr 2021, 12:28

Anyone hearing that immiD have stopped issuing visas altogether regardless of roster? A mate of mine went down to counter 30 with a roster and was told "still processing".

Clueless In CLK

9th Apr 2021, 13:30

Fired engineers end of last year just to make the quota numbers - now back filling vacancies within Engineering with trainees from the pilot scheme who were previously in ENG .... also fired good engineers who had permanent HKG ID status, and now having difficulty getting visa renewals for those in ENG requiring work visa renewal... what brain dead muppets on 8th floor made that call

Avinthenews

9th Apr 2021, 16:13

Unfortunately these days silo A that hires and fires isn’t silo B that you work within. Silo A costs go down silo B suffers consequences and costs go up.

doublelift

11th Apr 2021, 04:06

666305

As of what I heard, one time three month extension then no more extension will be given. The lady in immiD dealing with the visa issue has been working in CAD/Transportation bureau before, so she know the in and out of the airline operation. Roster is totally controlled by the airline and cant fool them anymore.

Donblock

11th Apr 2021, 04:48

What’s the roster got to do with the process. You either employed and sponsored by your company or not... did I miss something?

Rie

11th Apr 2021, 06:06

They require a roster now to prove you are actually working to be able to get a renewal sorted. A whole bunch of days off pretty much assures no visa renewal. New system for the 2021 muck about.

Dragon Pacific

11th Apr 2021, 06:17

What would be the point in renewing a work visa for for instance a 777 pilot who hadn’t flown since Feb 2020? As and when/if 777 pilots are needed there is plenty of time to recruit and train unemployed locals.

Donblock

11th Apr 2021, 06:26

oh dear. I think you’ve totally missed the concept here.

And where does a airline find ‘spare’ cash to train or re qualified when needed? They’re all on the brink of collapsing.

I also think it’s NOT about locals. It’s the principle of employment of eligible people, starting from HK Nationals, HKPRs then the rest. having said that, locals are looking for help now whereas 2019 they have another idea.

Dragon Pacific

11th Apr 2021, 06:37

And what does training cost in real terms? Nothing is what it costs. The sims exist, the training centre is there, the instructors and STCs are there and being paid whether they train anyone or not.

Dingleberry Handpump

11th Apr 2021, 07:18

Donblock

Where does an airline find spare cash? what difference does it make?

They’ll need similar training whether coming off a furlough or back online after a 15+ month break.

cabbages

11th Apr 2021, 08:37

Apparently CX are not quite as strapped for cash as they might have us believe. How else can you explain the creation of yet another GM position, and all associated benefits, when traffic levels are down 90%+?

ascalehero

11th Apr 2021, 08:55

Dragon Pacific

So what you're basically asking is that these 777 pilots are fired so they can suffer like you? And then when flying picks up maybe, only maybe you might have a chance of getting one of those jobs? You're basically wishing other pilots loose there jobs with out any guarantee you would even 'win' from it by being offered a job.
You sound like a great guy , like the kid at school that when he got in trouble he told on all his class mates so they could get in trouble too

Curry Lamb

11th Apr 2021, 09:00

cabbages

Probably counting on another huge tax payers “loan” of 40 billion or so. Desperate times call for desperate measures :rolleyes:

doublelift

11th Apr 2021, 09:45

ascalehero

Local first is black and white written in GEP. It might not sound pleasant to you, but this is what supposed to be like.

Kitsune

11th Apr 2021, 13:01

AScaleHero...

You can’t be A scale, your spelling is definitely B scale or lower 🙄

main_dog

11th Apr 2021, 13:36

Can’t, and is... :}

ascalehero

11th Apr 2021, 14:16

Kitsune

I'm sorry at least I can make an effort in my second language. I'm sure you can't even speak a word of your 3rd wife's local Tagalog. P.S not sure what word you're trying to spell between spelling and definitely.

Anyways back to the topic. On and on another problem go goes without a solution. If they are not even giving visas to those with work duties on the roster is a ruling expected soon to say either A: No more visa extensions in which case those effected will be let go or B: Agreement made with cx, Back to giving normal 2 year visas?

doublelift

11th Apr 2021, 14:37

when someone cant get an extension with rostered duties, how can you expect B to be the outcome. Also, HX cargo is hiring (only for locals) recently without any expansion in fleet tell us something as well

Donblock

11th Apr 2021, 23:15

look, I think everyone’s loosing people to visa problem. HX cargo need to fill the blank as they are maybe flying a lot and no impact. Where as other company find opportunity to get rid of people

very sad but what to do?

Curry Lamb

12th Apr 2021, 05:23

Only thing left to do is:
LOG OFF, CLOCK OFF and :mad: OFF

(Also brush up on those English language skills, ELP 4 is the minimum required)

TimeToWhine

12th Apr 2021, 12:45

It seems HKs biz jet pilots have had no trouble renewing their visas or even getting new visas issued. Why the different treatment? Are local redundant pilots not suitable for these positions?

Dragon Pacific

12th Apr 2021, 13:37

They have billionaire influential owners.

Rie

12th Apr 2021, 14:13

many are N registered. This means you can discount a large group of existing local pilots. Also that they have probably not gone after the smaller operators. Just trying to take down the airlines first.

flight scchool

12th Apr 2021, 16:24

There's a lot of Biz jet guys out of work too. It has been hit pretty hard. The one's I know of already have PR or are HK citizens, are typed and experienced, but there's just no jobs. It used to be that if you lose your job in corporate you could maybe get a bit of contract work to tide you over and pay the rent, but quarantine has put an end to that. It's pretty miserable at the minute.

LLLQNH

12th Apr 2021, 16:24

Dragon Pacific

and swire pacific doesn't???? Right........

oz_faf81

13th Apr 2021, 04:17

Why the different treatment? Are local redundant pilots not suitable for these positions?

- Because it requires a licence that 95% of the time is not a HKCAD licence.
- Because there are dozens of bizjets pilots who lost their jobs and already have PR, pilots that are qualified on type or have proper experience in business aviation (like not flying the same routes over and over and who can manage without the backing of an airline).
- Because operators know that ex-airline guys will complain about not having GDO, not being able to take leave, having to spend 3 months in a row in China, and will probably resign as soon as airlines will restart hiring.

For starters...

The FUB

13th Apr 2021, 06:30

Biz jet pilots are employed by an ac owner not an HR People dept, ability to fit in, get along and not cause trouble counts for a lot. Word of mouth more than me me me gets the job.

Bueno Hombre

18th Apr 2021, 09:36

Anyone hearing that immiD have stopped issuing visas altogether regardless of roster? A mate of mine went down to counter 30 with a roster and was told "still processing".
Stopping issuing visas for foreign workers would be a great idea for a jurisdiction that has an unemployment problem in that sector. Cathay Pacific is spending to convert some of their pilots to freighter operations, while local Dragonair pilots, whose cost of conversion to freighter type, would have been the same, have been sacked. CX is receiving money from Hong Kong Government , but CX is using this money for the benefit of foreign pilots, while there are local pilots available and now unemployed.

LLLQNH

18th Apr 2021, 09:53

All of the conversions thus far to the 747 have gone senior. Not one so far has been forced across because of low seniority they were all voluntary in accordance with the NTC.

The cost wouldn't have been the same to convert a former KA pilot into the Cx 747 fleet as the KA pilot would have been a new hire and would have a much larger and thus expensive training footprint, the ka pilot would do a direct entry FO course which is about 2-3 times bigger than the footprint that a current Cx Boeing pilot does. (777 pilots qualify for a short course conversion into the 747 shorter than what a CX airbus pilot would do)

666305

18th Apr 2021, 17:44

My sentiments exactly. At a time when the very existence of the company is being threatened, the Immigration Department should look into the costs of retraining an ex KA pilot vs a current CX 777 pilot. Especially for a business-centric city like Hong Kong, the Immigration Department should (and I'm sure they already have) talk to the airlines to see how currently policies can be carefully applied to save costs for the airlines as LLLQNH has alluded to. It's one thing to have a GEP but it's another thing to blindly apply it and thus doing harm to important companies like CX.

Table For 1

18th Apr 2021, 19:47

Exactly the point.....CX is no longer important to Beijing. Wake up and smell the coffee guys.

CodyBlade

19th Apr 2021, 03:48

Viewed as "unreliable".

doolay

19th Apr 2021, 04:12

CX has never been important to Beijing. In fact, just the opposite. They are an embarrassing colonial leftover that Beijing want gone.
Time is running out for CX.

Curry Lamb

19th Apr 2021, 04:33

Back in 1946 CXi was very important to Beijing. It was the only way to get guns, drugs and prossies to the West.

Bueno Hombre

19th Apr 2021, 09:29

LLLQNH

So you think that Hong Kong Government should be pennywise and pound foolish and only consider declared retraining costs.

LLLQNH

19th Apr 2021, 10:22

Not at all, I am pointing out that your outburst was completely factually incorrect. The recent transfers to the 747 have nothing whatsoever to do with redundant KA pilots.

Bueno Hombre

20th Apr 2021, 08:57

Hardly an 'outburst' , merely a statement of fact. KA was demolished because KA had the greater proportion of local pilots. Now Swire is trying to justify that decision by talking about costs. It is sad that Hong Kong Government appears to still have very little aviation knowledge and so continues to follow the Swire Line, just like it has done since the beginning of aviation in Hong Kong.

Dingleberry Handpump

20th Apr 2021, 11:39

KA was axed because it had a greater proportion of local pilots?

Get a grip.

doublelift

20th Apr 2021, 12:40

This time the lady who made the visa call was working in Transportation bureau and CAD before. She know the operation of airlines and wouldn’t be fooled, hopefully.

Ecam321

20th Apr 2021, 17:13

This argument is completely academic. As long as the HK government keeps these ridiculous and illogical quarantine rules, there will be no HK aviation industry to be scrapping over.
And with all these variants developing and the governments lack of appetite for risk, HK remains virtually closed for the future and its aviation industry :mad:

Dragon Pacific

20th Apr 2021, 19:33

Even more academic if this is true.
https://www.dimsumdaily.hk/cathay-pacific-to-layoff-more-pilots-office-and-support-staff-in-june-sources/

Curry Lamb

20th Apr 2021, 20:43

https://www.dimsumdaily.hk/cathay-pacific-to-layoff-more-pilots-office-and-support-staff-in-june-sources/[/QUOTE]

Oh dear! And without a proper seniority system in POS18 (which was their cunning plan all along), it’s gonna be OPEN SEASON come 1st of June.

The lucky few who moved to the 400, good on ya.
For the rest of the 777 drivers, and a few bus ones: that’s the Fat Lady you hear singing :uhoh:

Oasis

20th Apr 2021, 20:51

CNN, Bloomberg, The South China Post, HongKong Coconuts.

You get one try...

One is not like all the others, can you pick which one it is?

Curry Lamb

21st Apr 2021, 05:30

Depends on who you ask. According to Trump, it’s A) CNN. Final answer.

main_dog

21st Apr 2021, 09:05

“It ain’t over ‘til the fat lady sings”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_ain't_over_till_the_fat_lady_sings

Oasis

21st Apr 2021, 09:10

Curry Lamb

I think you are either missing the gist of my post, or going on a political tangent.

MENELAUS

21st Apr 2021, 10:35

Landflap

Opera. The final act. As generally sung by a lady of Rubenesque proportions.

Bueno Hombre

22nd Apr 2021, 09:27

“It ain’t over ‘til the fat lady sings”, used to be the favourite saying of the esteemed Leon Richardson, who, in his time, gave such excellent financial advice to us on RTHK Radio 3. I wonder what would be his financial advice now. Anyway, thanks guys for the input about the fat lady. I too could never find a reference about this fat lady until now.

Walkingthedog

22nd Apr 2021, 09:37

It would have been “ your best loss is your first loss”
That was one of his favourites.

Gordomac

23rd Apr 2021, 08:57

Gosh you chaps are brill. I see why I failed the Tech quiz ! Some humour skirting about must be welcome under the current climate. Good luck to all.

Curry Lamb

23rd Apr 2021, 17:53

Some more by Diddly Danny in the South Commie Morning Post: :bored:

Hong Kong Airlines pilots face uncertain future over work-permit renewals, while hundreds of expats employed by Cathay Pacific are stuck in limbo
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3130853/hong-kong-airlines-pilots-face-uncertain-future

Hong Kong Airlines (HKA) pilots face losing their jobs over problematic work-visa renewals, the Post has learned, while hundreds of those serving Cathay Pacific who have expired or short-term work permits are stuck in limbo.

HKA pilots were given the choice to gamble on a visa renewal with no certainty of immigration approval, or resign from the company with a guaranteed payout, according to an internal document seen by the Post.

At least 20 employees are waiting on application extensions, an HKA spokeswoman said, adding the figure might increase as it handled more cases. The number does not include scores of pilots who opted to resign by a deadline on Wednesday.

The spokeswoman said a valid work visa was a prerequisite for employment, and added the airline was doing its best to “support affected employees and have made arrangements related to their remuneration, insurance and benefits”.

As many as 500 Cathay employees are also facing visa problems, a source familiar with the situation said. Some on expired visas were still getting paid, and the company had not yet taken action to terminate their employment.

The source said the government was so concerned about the high level of unemployment among local aviation workers that it had carried out an investigation and produced a report for Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor to take action on.

The months-long crisis in the cockpit among those with high-end skills has snowballed across various workforces and companies, including cabin crew and other aviation workers dependent on visas, who are normally granted the right to work in Hong Kong for up to three years.

In a normal year before Covid-19, the Hong Kong Immigration Department would receive around 45,000 work visa applications, which dropped to 17,688 last year. In the first three months of this year, it got almost 3,800. The number of applications refused remains in single figures, but the department does not provide a breakdown across different sectors.

Problems facing expat aviation workers have reached a critical stage. A number of HKA pilots were told in April that the Immigration Department would issue a final round of visa renewals for three months, although those were not guaranteed.

Visa troubles surfaced after the closure of Cathay Dragon with virtually all staff, most of them local Hongkongers, made redundant in October 2020.

Late last year, Hong Kong’s deputy leader, Chief Secretary Matthew Cheung Kin-chung, led a government inquiry into the impact of unemployment on the local aviation industry. The city’s unemployment rate remains close to a pandemic-high of 6.8 per cent in March.

The effect among Cathay’s workforce has been felt by pilots, cabin crew and ground staff, amounting to some 500 non-permanent residents. Many have expired visas, meaning their spouses are unable to work and children cannot go to school.

The Immigration Department said expats would be admitted to Hong Kong if there was a job vacancy and, among other things, the role could not be performed by a local.

“Extension of stay … will be considered if the applicant continues to meet the relevant eligibility criteria,” a spokeswoman said.

An affected HKA pilot, who declined to be named, pointed out that “forcing pilots” out of their jobs in an effort to support local employment would not result in the immediate rehiring of Hongkongers, given the catastrophic financial consequences of Covid-19.

But a Dragon pilot who was made redundant said: “Pilots are historically an area where the local workforce is lacking … and it is extremely unfortunate Cathay retrenched over 400 local pilots whilst retaining employment of even more foreign pilots on work visas. This has been endorsed by immigration against its own policies by not declining work visa renewals.”

Cathay Pacific did not answer questions on how many employees were affected by visa issues, how it would handle visa rejections, special circumstances, or state if it was aware of one-off renewals.

A spokeswoman said the airline was answering any questions the Immigration Department might have “in relation to any visa renewals”.

On Thursday, Cathay announced it would close overseas pilot bases in Canada and proposed the same for Australia and New Zealand, raising the likelihood of more job losses at the airline.

But in a briefing with Australia-based pilots, the airline said it would only relocate permanent residents or those with the right to live and work in the city.

Employment law expert Yonah Leung, senior associate in Eversheds Sutherland’s human resources practice, said visa applications were taking longer, and there was greater onus on firms to show no local candidate could do the job.

“Before Covid-19 it is likely that these visa applications would have been approved,” he said.

cabbages

23rd Apr 2021, 18:39

Great news from the latest FOP Weekly Update!!........A new HK CAD approved AME in YVR....that's gonna be really useful for all the Canadian based guys.

Bueno Hombre

24th Apr 2021, 09:50

AforesaidSCMP article said.
"An affected HKA pilot, who declined to be named, pointed out that “forcing pilots” out of their jobs in an effort to support local employment would not result in the immediate rehiring of Hongkongers, given the catastrophic financial consequences of Covid-19".
Sounds like he is receiving salary without any job to do. No wonder he declined to be named.
Furthermore he appears to wants to keep his present sinecure for now and so continue to be hired, instead of local Hong Kong people, in the event that things will slowly improve.
"Immediate" is the key word in his comment.

cabbages

24th Apr 2021, 10:13

Your point of view, Bueno Hombre, is certainly gaining traction if you consider the comments from the SCMP articles. Lots of seething hatred directed at the 'Caucasian foreign pilots...' to be found in there.

CodyBlade

24th Apr 2021, 11:17

The comments from the KA pilot's wife is quite revealing eh.

veritas777

24th Apr 2021, 16:06

Perhaps if these "Caucasian foreign pilots" stopped trying to illegally overstay their welcome and feel entitled to a temporary worker position at the expense of a country's own citizens, there wouldn't be such "seething hatred"... just a thought

LLLQNH

24th Apr 2021, 16:48

What about those Caucasian foreign pilots who have PR, probably married to another PR perhaps even a Hong Kong Chinese citizen? From the tone of your post and others it sounds as if they are just as unwelcome. Don't hold back and mince your words let the truth come out and tell us foreigners how it is!

Finally the leopards are showing their spots... PS not all us foreigners are Caucasian !

doublelift

24th Apr 2021, 17:00

veritas777

very well said

veritas777

24th Apr 2021, 17:10

LLLQNH

cabbage's words, not mine...

If they are PR, then they wouldn't be the ones having the visa issue making this argument moot... so clearly the article is not about them.

cabbages

24th Apr 2021, 20:40

Actually those were not my words, hence the quotation marks. It was just one, of the many examples from the SCMP, I could have used to make my original point.

ascalehero

24th Apr 2021, 23:35

veritas777

I don't know what it takes to realize that pilots being given a visa extension is not at the expense of citizens such as you.

1. You worked for a different company

2. If as you are wishing, these pilots without PR are fired, then you will not get your job back as there is no need for more people. Look around and see your fellow brave citizens are not getting the scary vaccine and are in no rush to return to normal life but would rather live with masks, social distancing and hiding under their beds. Therefore travel is not coming back any time soon.

3. If Cathay is forced into firing those without a PR do you think they are going to go on a hiring spree and spend the millions to train you up to then not even fly? Yes I know 777 guys are being paid to not fly right now but they are current pilots thus no training costs etc are required.

4. Don't forget you've already been paid out a redundancy, think the tight pursed company will just throw that much money at 500 pilots to then essentially call them back in 6 months time for a new gig? Much cheaper to just keep the guys you already have and then when in the future (2040 when quarantine is dropped?) further hires are needed then hire the local talent and no expats until those unemployed dragon guys are all given a shot at an interview.

Curry Lamb

24th Apr 2021, 23:55

You’re missing the crux of the thread, so let me give it in a nutshell:

No PR = No guarantee of further employment.

Capiche?

bacou

25th Apr 2021, 00:16

ascalehero

I agree with your point 1, however KA pilots were not made redundant by KA but because of a decision made by "senior management" of Swire/CX that impacted both airlines:Sack the boys and send the aircraft across.
It means that by not transferring KA employees they created hundreds of jobs at CX at our expense: You have more aircraft than before Covid.

I raised your point 3 with immigration to commemorate KA 6 months redundancy anniversary.
I asked why CX was still supporting Visa renewals and planning to train 321 pilots when there are more than 200 PR pilots qualified on the aircraft who had been flying the routes that CX intends to fly and would be cheaper to retrain and safer operators than CX pilots who never flew the aircraft /network.

Feel free to write to immigration as well and make the points you listed here.

Dragon Pacific

25th Apr 2021, 01:31

It is pretty obvious that any recovery is going to be a long time coming. CX has far more pilots than it needs for the foreseeable future and indeed such a large surplus that many more must be culled to ensure the survival of the airline.
The bases are being cut but that won’t be enough. Forget KA pilots, the loudest voices lobbying ImmD to refuse work visas will be those pilots with PR clamouring to come back to HK from a base. Once HK layoffs start then Locals and HKPR will be insisting that those on visas go first.

BusyB

25th Apr 2021, 11:18

Well I hope those wishing to stop work visas for current CX pilots won't be wanting to move to UK when they realise how they will be treated by China. Resentment can go both ways!!

KABOY

25th Apr 2021, 11:55

I think you will soon realize that those who are petitioning for work visas being revoked are HK residents. These people have decided that HK is their home. You also realize that most of the swire management hold UK passports.

Are you trying to drum up some western resentment.

Rie

25th Apr 2021, 12:05

BusyB forgets that discrimination laws exist in the UK... If a BNO holder was to go to the UK and apply for a job they would have as fair a chance of getting the position as anyone else who is applying. So yes they are just trying to create a divide here.

doublelift

25th Apr 2021, 12:32

This is because BNO holder has the right to work and live in UK without a visa. That’s a different story, it is total nonsense to compare passport holder with a visa holder.
And apart from HK, can you tell me in what part of the world a visa holder could have ldisplaced the position of the citizens?

SW1

25th Apr 2021, 13:27

Think you do need a visa to work in the UK as a BNO. You'll get your citizenship after 5 years under the new deal.

And to answer your final question. Yes there are EU nationals that still have jobs whilst "citizens" are unemployed at BA, Easyjet etc.

LLLQNH

25th Apr 2021, 14:59

hey doublelift not that it matters in this argument but your not right, a BNO passport holder has to get a visa and it has to get renewed during their 5 year physical presence in the U.K. before they obtain residency and ultimately citizenship you can't just rock up with a BNO passport. But as we said it's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

doublelift

25th Apr 2021, 16:13

That's my mistake, didn't look into the detail of the BNO things.

BusyB

25th Apr 2021, 18:54

Haven't forgotten anything thanks. Having spent many years in HK with PR I am saddened by the attacks on those working for CX who are being discarded and then further attacked by these spiteful individuals. Good luck to all CX employees apart from the management.

Dragon Pacific

28th Apr 2021, 04:02

So take the redundancy money or risk staying?

NotHere

28th Apr 2021, 04:04

End of an era?

ascalehero

28th Apr 2021, 04:29

Surely this will follow with people being fired in June. Especially those on 777 . Can't imagine a large amount would take it when the reward isn't too sweet.

Curry Lamb

28th Apr 2021, 05:03

Only those who don’t take the “voluntary” redundancy package.

The CXi soap opera’s grand finale, season 1, is coming to an end. Sadly there won’t be a season 2.

BalloonBuster

28th Apr 2021, 07:10

Well, when CX made the FRA ground staff redundant and offered them 3 months it was quickly decided in German court that they required payout averaged between 1,5 to 2 years of salary based on German labor law.
It is confirmed by a law firm that the same applies to the +\-50 FRA based pilots.
In LON we are on the same contract but under a different labor law requiring minimum 6 months payout, BUT there also still is a strong seniority based clause in our contracts.
In other words, yes the EUR base can be closed but requires around 10 months to go through the proceedings like when MAN was closed, and redundancy pay in accordance with local labour law has to be offered if one chooses not to go to HK.
So, 10 months of bitching about with the company on full pay followed by another 6 months while EUR is opening up again, please bring it on asap !

CX has been made aware of this, hence the EUR review ‘later in the year’

My guess is that OZ is going to come up with something similar which is why the letters they received mention that the closure is just a proposal and that no decision has been made.

Summary of this story:
CX: “ so sorry HK government, we tried to close all bases and save local jobs instead but it looks like we’ll be taken to court around the world with massive fines and redundancy payout as a result so we have no choice but to cut jobs in HK on COS18 only. “
HK Government: “Whoaoa, OK laa”

flyboy007

28th Apr 2021, 09:59

My guess is that OZ is going to come up with something similar which is why the letters they received mention that the closure is just a proposal and that no decision has been made

Sadly you’re drawing a long bow with that theory. The decision has no doubt been made, but there is a legal and contractual a requirement to “consult” prior to making any decisions wrt redundancy or base closures. Hence, the chat about no decisions having been made.

Pickuptruck

28th Apr 2021, 11:19

BalloonBuster

Sadly for BA and another half a dozen airlines in the UK their pilot contracts in the current pandemic have proved to be worthless. But good luck anyway.

LLLQNH

28th Apr 2021, 11:33

I don't think it is anything to do with contracts on the bases it seems more of an issue around local legislation ie workers rights and laws. You can bet your bottom dollar as well that no western nation will be in the mood to let a Hong Kong company off easy especially given the current political climate between them and in addition to the fact that they have been giving financial support to all these Cathay employees for a year or so only to see them eliminated or the jobs and future tax revenues relocated to HKG. That won't go down well and will require answers or possible consequences.

Dragon Pacific

28th Apr 2021, 11:56

Pickuptruck is quite right ref BA. Exceptional circumstances and all that. Contracts aren’t as solid as we all like to think.

BalloonBuster

28th Apr 2021, 13:27

As others have said before, it is not about contracts.
it is about local labour law, which CX has found out the hard way firing FRA ground staff

fatbus

28th Apr 2021, 16:05

Hope it works out for all those involved . Stranger things can happen . We are well and truly in unprecedented times.

CCA

28th Apr 2021, 16:38

BalloonBuster

That was done when things were normal. You don’t think CX losing 1.9 billion a month will have any sway with said labour laws. As the post above says, these are unprecedented times and will most likely result in unprecedented rulings.

Pickuptruck

28th Apr 2021, 23:29

Amazes me that it doesn’t matter how many Airline employees in the UK get utterly shafted with contracts that suddenly, in this pandemic, turn out to be worthless, CX pilots still think that they’re gods gift to aviation. Even the UK government in some instances backed the airlines to take the approach that they have and I’ve yet to see a contract that’s worth anything.

5 mins on google doing a search might pull some heads out of the sand.

Donblock

28th Apr 2021, 23:45

it’s not that no one has mentioned anywhere else regarding employment situations, this is, incidentally, The “Fragrant Harbour” forum. So perhaps the guys here are focusing on what impact them most, Hong Kong.

Fly747

28th Apr 2021, 23:59

Don. The bases impact directly on HK. Cathay is losing maybe a thousand or more pilot jobs. For every job kept on a base then one will have to be lost in HK. That is why the Gov is interested in bases and visa status in HK.

Posterizing

4th May 2021, 05:39

word around the street is that visas are now being rejected instead of pending for 777 and airbus guys, any truth to that?

TurningFinalRWY36

4th May 2021, 05:44

true, few people I know have been rejected

NotHere

4th May 2021, 06:49

Is that for all companies?

Jetdream

4th May 2021, 07:20

A computer glitch? Really?

Posterizing

4th May 2021, 07:32

Cathay to ImmiD: I said 4th of JUNE not 4th of may!

Curry Lamb

4th May 2021, 07:41

Time to log off, clock off and :mad: off! Best gig in town, whilst it lasted, anyway.
In Mr Leslie Chow’s own words: “So long, gay boys!”

ascalehero

4th May 2021, 08:07

Sorry this forum title says- 'is for professional pilots based with airlines in HKG', if your unemployed can you bugger off. Not our fault you failed your Cathay application and went to dDagon instead. As they say, you made your bed

LLLQNH

4th May 2021, 08:14

Posterizing

as sad as it is I think you might be on to something. We all know more job cuts are coming and they sure as hell are not gonna make people redundant until the gov does the dirty work for them.....VSS anyone?

Walkingthedog

4th May 2021, 08:25

as ale hero

equally charming

doublelift

4th May 2021, 08:56

ascalehero

Will be your turn very soon, enjoy the last month as a professional pilot.

Rie

4th May 2021, 09:12

A "glitch" being a precursor to actual rejection coming soon...

doublelift

4th May 2021, 09:15

The question now become will the visa holder on the jumbo being rejected and forced to go as well

Hkgdownthetoilet

4th May 2021, 09:28

Rie

just like having an AME approved by CAD in YVR for Canadian crews and exactly the following week announce the closure of Canadian bases...
seriously?... when there is no comms , the comms that finally are given are ridiculous.

Freehills

4th May 2021, 13:10

doublelift

Look on the bright side, with all the CX pilots having time on their hands, cures for cancer, the common cold, and the ending of world hunger will be done lickety split!

LLLQNH

4th May 2021, 13:22

Guys I am surprised especially if you have been in Cathay for more than 5 mins.

We do not operate like a normal airline, flight ops managers are not real managers they are the mouthpiece for the real managers and puppeteers behind the scenes lurking in the shadows. Who for whatever reason do not step into the cold light of day. Often those on the 3rd floor are only there because they are required for AOC/regulatory reasons they do not have a say in things and quite often are only privy to information 5 mins before us minions. I'm not trying to be nasty or disrespectful about the guys & girls on the third floor it is just the way it is, they will even tell you as much.

Avinthenews

4th May 2021, 14:54

Agree while it’s easy to attack the 3rd floor they aren’t the ones that make the decisions they are simply the messengers. Crewing decisions are way above FOPs.

BusyB

4th May 2021, 17:03

3rd floor accept the jobs and take the perks. They deserve no consideration at all.

Curry Lamb

5th May 2021, 04:10

doublelift

What someone else said: Only if you don’t have at least 100k followers on social media.

Come FLY with me, let’s fly away!

Memorylapse

5th May 2021, 05:21

She thinks she’s an exotic goose, in a world far far away!

Near Miss

5th May 2021, 08:09

100k followers?

Rice power

5th May 2021, 15:35

Not up to the hype
Not by a long shot
Smile and wave.

Cpt. Underpants

6th May 2021, 04:48

Why does the Oliebol bother you so much? She’s figured out a way to monetize her profession and probably does quite well by it.

Wishing harm on someone is pretty low.

I don’t see half as much attention focused on the Zimbo BTC who does the same thing (tries to).

DessertRat

6th May 2021, 05:26

Have a read of today’s FOP Comms Capt Undies! It appears he does!

pfvspnf

6th May 2021, 06:10

How much money she make from the gram ?

veritas777

6th May 2021, 12:57

Cpt. Underpants

Jealousy.

"Nobody should be happier or better off than I am"

Cpt. Underpants

6th May 2021, 12:59

How much does she make? Good question. If she “promotes” specific consumer products, it’s a private deal - could be a lot, depending upon what she negotiated. From advert pushing, about $1000 per 100k views I believe. She’s not raking in the dough (I don’t see her doing anything approaching the numbers some “influencers” do) and her motives are probably more based on narcissism than anything else. Still, it’s mostly harmless fluff that amuses her followers, and shouldn’t be taken seriously. She’s no Jackie Cochran nor a Jean Batten but she certainly tries to promote herself like the latter. Perhaps one day she’ll reflect on her contributions and realize how vacuous they were - when she grows up.

veritas777

6th May 2021, 16:50

Maybe one day there will be a market on social media for grumpy old men who hate their lives and everyone else around them... then PPRUNE will be really raking in the cash

noboloco

7th May 2021, 01:34

for a lot of people around here they are just bitter and resentful that there’s someone around them who actually enjoys their job and life.

G Merch

7th May 2021, 03:58

Anybody who gets all wound up over what someone else does online, may have some serious issues that need addressing.

Kitsune

7th May 2021, 07:54

What a sad, sad, human being you are CU…

Curry Lamb

7th May 2021, 10:38

Cpt. Underpants

Wonder if this social media butterfly declares her additional income to the taxman in Hong Kong and in the Netherlands :}

main_dog

7th May 2021, 10:50

Jeez boys, what’s this got to do with visa renewals in HK? Give the lady a break and back on topic!

Wasn't there supposed to be news from immigration this week?

SW1

7th May 2021, 11:16

think they're still experiencing their "technical glitch" applications showing as closed on the online status. so either a glitch or they've refused all renewals and made up some BS story.

doublelift

7th May 2021, 11:21

I would put my bet on latter one

NotHere

7th May 2021, 13:45

SW1

The IT department is on over time......:ugh:

Dragon Pacific

15th May 2021, 13:09

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/3133612/settle-pilot-visa-issue-soon-or-risk-damage-air?module=lead_hero_story_2&pgtype=homepage

There is no visa issue to fix. HKAC has had more than six months now to recruit some very well qualified ex KA A330 pilots. The GEP is quite clear, employ locals and PR first before working visa renewal.

Curry Lamb

15th May 2021, 13:38

This clown show is still trying to BS the ImmD by using “training costs” as a convenient excuse. “Years to train” someone on an old and tired A330F - yeah right!

If you’re neither PR nor a HK citizen, then time to Log Off, clock off and :mad: off

Oasis

15th May 2021, 15:34

What about the ex dragon pr holders, surely they should get a job back in Hong Kong before any new visas are issued, right?

or just the locals?

volare_737

16th May 2021, 05:36

Exactly !!Nothing to add but some people just don't get it !Have to say I am affected as well but that's just how it works !

Memorylapse

16th May 2021, 07:06

Sorry to hear! Back to South America. Good luck with that. At least the girls are pretty.

Oasis

16th May 2021, 07:33

If there is a job available and there are two people available, a local and a visa holder, the job should go to the best person suited for the job.

If there is a job available and and there are unemployed locals with the skills for the job, the company should not be able to attract someone from overseas to fill the job.

If there are visa holders who have a job, but don't get their visa renewed because there are unemployed locals with he same skills, and then forcing the company to replace pilot a with pilot b because they are local, that goes too far for me.

doublelift

16th May 2021, 07:59

if both visa holders and locals have job, now the company has to make people redundant. The company should make those bisa holder redundant first. Your statement is based on a questionable decision made back in Oct. I know you would argue that dragon and cathay are two company. But don’t forget, there are CX locals being made redundant as well

Oasis

16th May 2021, 08:03

so are you saying that Cathay, when they decide to close Dragonair, should have sacked cx pilots on a visa and replaced them with locals/pr holders from Dragonair?

doublelift

16th May 2021, 08:10

No, but cathay itself should have sacked visa holder SO first, rather then the local SO. There are still cathay local boys out there with no job while visa holder SO still have a job. This should not have happened.
For dragonair, technically they are two companys. I have no problem with it

Oasis

16th May 2021, 08:22

correct me if I’m wrong, but the initial sacking you meant was before the visa renewal issues came up, right?

it was not the job of cx to distinguish between visa holder and local/pr, before it became an issue.

could they have foreseen it? Perhaps they should have, or maybe they just didn’t care.

now we are in this mess, how to fix it? You can’t really..

cx has different hiring practices or preferences than dragon did, to force cx to take on dragon people seems wrong to me especially at the detriment of people already in cx.

doublelift

16th May 2021, 08:39

Look at how Singapore and other Chinese airline do in making people redundancy. Both have let expat go first rather than reverse seniority. Both airlines are politically sensitive enough and avoided a mess. Now CX again has created a problem, not affecting themselves but the whole hk aviation industry.

I personally don’t think CX can’t foresee this is coming. They have been get into the same trouble in international cadet back in early 2010s

slowjet

16th May 2021, 08:41

Politics and business ethos never on a level playing field. Purely politically, I favour jobs for the locals. Purely on business lines, I favour jobs for the more suited and talented. The two go head-to= head when you have too many foreigners and too many locals. It has been like that for decades in the Middle East. I know many who enjoyed the latter location for decades but most were aware that it would only last until the locals, simply outnumbered the foreign guests.

All of us pilots tend to develop loyalties very quickly and enjoy getting into the team spirit. When flying for a foreign airline in a foreign country on a RV/work-permit the team spirit and desire to "belong" is very misguided and doomed to transition rather than permanency.

Very sad and even moreso when it is time to go but nothing to go back to.

Rie

16th May 2021, 08:59

I am all for what Oasis is suggesting. Why should an employed worker suffer and be fired just so a Local can fill the position. When it comes to redundancies then yes follow the list and out the Visa holders before the PR then the Chinese locals. What will happen in June hopefully follows this method. It is more or less the seniority order anyway.

What the government is doing by stalling the visa renewals has no real point. They should either deny or approve and get on with their jobs. Leaving people in the dark is a horrible tactic.

Mill Worker

16th May 2021, 09:10

So work visas are not available so local jobs are protected... whilst this is not ideal for many CX employees I can at least see their point. But over the years CX have not maintained work visas for Based Pilots because apparently Based Crew did not need a work visa. These individuals that have no right to work in HK so how is it they do have the right to be taxed in HK? It's one or the other...

krismiler

16th May 2021, 10:24

If you were in your home country and qualified for a job but unemployed, how would you feel about a foreigner doing that job instead of you ? Most people would become suddenly nationalistic and want to replace the expats with locals.

In some airlines, expats are there only on a temporary basis and they know it, with a five year contract renewable on "if required" terms. This has suited some people who only wanted a retirement job, or to get some jet time and move on. Until a few years ago CX was a career airline where you expected to stay until retirement, it was highly profitable and there weren't enough locals to fill the seats. Now there is a massive downturn with a greater percentage of local pilots than ever before, conditions have been on a downward slide for years and the idea of a family life in Hong Kong while working for CX has become far less attractive.

Unfortunately it's now reached the stage where having an exit plan is essential and it will need to involve a few years of not flying. Alternative means of making a living need to be looked into, along with accommodation and children's schooling. Having a "to do" list if the worse happens next month would be a sensible move.