View Full Version : Torquay skydive ops
Squawk7700
1st Mar 2021, 09:51
Genuine question....
They were dropping through solid 8/8’s which is as far as I know legit, but what about the 208? I heard plenty of CTAF calls and drop and descent clearances, but no talk of IFR clearance. Cloud was solid 8/8 at 4,000ft and at least 500ft thick.
Am I missing something about how the operation works with regards to clearances?
spektrum
1st Mar 2021, 10:06
Give 'em a break. They're a tourism business who are going through covid.
Squawk7700
1st Mar 2021, 10:11
Give 'em a break. They're a tourism business who are going through covid.
LOL, I’ll remember that next time I’m speeding in my car, flying at 100ft over the cbd or flying IFR under the VFR. Covid made me do it!
NaFenn
1st Mar 2021, 10:20
No idea on specifics of their operation, however I have seen a number of skydiving companies (using 208s) wanting instrument ratings within their application criteria... so it's quite possible that they do operate under the IFR.
MostlyHarmless
1st Mar 2021, 11:33
Surprised to hear they're jumping at all - we're grounded until 29th...
Squawk7700
1st Mar 2021, 19:17
Surprised to hear they're jumping at all - we're grounded until 29th...
Maybe it’s members only at this time. Lilydale were also jumping.
Vag277
2nd Mar 2021, 00:46
Airspace class? No clearance required if G
Squawk7700
2nd Mar 2021, 01:38
Airspace class? No clearance required if G
Class G IMC.
le Pingouin
2nd Mar 2021, 03:24
One was dropping from FL140 at Barwon Heads so required a clearance to climb, drop & descend. The other was dropping from FL120 and FL110 at Torquay so no clearance required as it was all OCTA. They were operating IFR and receiving an IFR service.
They do the same at Point Ormond........Climb and descend to FL’s through cloud and they haven’t nominated IFR. They have a ATC clearance obviously.
mcoates
2nd Mar 2021, 04:05
I think the main point of the question which was asked, is it legal for a parachutist to go through complete cloud cover ? somewhere without any holes for visibility ?
I could be dawdling along in my new plastic fantastic 1000 feet below the cloud base and all the sudden some parachutist breaks out of cloud and splatters across my windscreen.
I think this is the purpose of the question, are parachutists allowed to jump through complete cloud cover with no visibility of the ground or what is beneath them and would it be legal for the drop aircraft to fly up and down through this cloud layer knowing that his passengers cannot see the ground as soon as they depart be aircraft ?
le Pingouin
2nd Mar 2021, 04:25
"They were dropping through solid 8/8’s which is as far as I know legit" would indicate Squawk wasn't questioning that.
But to answer your question, yes it's legal if you have written permission from CASA.
Capt Fathom
2nd Mar 2021, 04:38
I could be dawdling along in my new plastic fantastic 1000 feet below the cloud base and all the sudden some parachutist breaks out of cloud and splatters across my windscreen.
Even if there was no cloud, you still wouldn't see them and the result would be the same!
I could be dawdling along in my new plastic fantastic 1000 feet below the cloud base and all the sudden some parachutist breaks out of cloud and splatters across my windscreenThe first question to raise is why are you bumbling through a piece of airspace where drops are being made? NOTAMS, para ops depicted on charts, radio coms with drop aircraft/ATC.
From the relevant manual,CASA and the APF have developed procedures that will allow parachuting through cloud under certain prescribed procedures, at site-specific locations. See APF Regulatory Schedule 60.
These procedures are contained in a Cloud Jumping Procedures Manual (CJPM) and the Club you are flying with may have such an approval. If so, you must ensure you are familiar with all the requirements contained within that Manual and that you have the approval of the Senior Pilot to conduct operations in accordance with the provisions in the Manual.
Cloud Jumping Manuals are specific to each Club. These manuals provide exemptions to APF Operational Regulations regarding cloud and visibility, specifying procedures that enable the Club to legally drop parachutists through cloud.
The pilot must have a comprehensive understanding of this manual, as by operating under these conditions, the parachutists are relying heavily on the pilot to accurately spot the aircraft and make the required radio calls to local traffic.
Important: Even though the skydivers may be able to descend through cloud, a VFR pilot must still be able to operate safely and legally, so ensure you can operate the aircraft in metrological conditions suitable to your licence and aircraft restrictions. Consider having an alternate airport available should conditions unexpectedly deteriorate.
Squawk7700
2nd Mar 2021, 05:23
At the time I was there I was 99% certain that the aircraft was not operating under the IFR, hence my question.
If they sometimes do, then fair enough, I now know that and I guess that’s good for safety, however on this occasion, conditions were IMC and clearances for IFR were not being issued as far as I could ascertain.
This all comes down to the pilot as to whether or not they decide at the time that conditions are VMC and or if they will punch through because it’s “not that thick.”
As for the suggestion that at Point Ormond they are climbing and descending through IMC under VFR does sound somewhat concerning, if that is in fact taking place.
Capt Fathom
2nd Mar 2021, 05:42
Why do they need a clearance? See post #9
mcoates
2nd Mar 2021, 06:46
Well, if allowed it would scare the hell out of me parachuting through solid cloud not knowing when you will be visual again?
SaulGoodman
2nd Mar 2021, 07:25
It is way to expensive to keep it certified for IFR ops. Sometimes it looks like 8/8 from the ground but in the air you may have ground sight. To drop a full load in IMC conditions would not be responsible. I’ve never jumped in IMC conditions.
cattletruck
2nd Mar 2021, 09:05
From my authorised vantage point of riding my bicycle on weekends through the distractions on St Kilda beach, I have observed that the Point Ormond parachute ops are pretty slick. The drop zone is NOTAMed and some poor buggers in their flying contraptions get caught out however ATC is pretty good at getting things moving efficiently. Often when Melbourne is overcast it often doesn't extend over the bay for reasons meteorological, and with a bailout at around FL100 you can often see the plane and the parachutist's drogue chutes - it's all rather benign really. I once asked one of the parachutist if they ever punch through cloud and the answer was yes providing that the cloud base was high enough.
I've been fortunate not to have been delayed flying around the bay but then I haven't flown on weekends for a while which is when Point Ormond parachute ops is going full pelt of around 1 jump every 50 minutes from my observations.
Interesting side note is that Point Ormond is the location of one of Melbourne's very first cemeteries, I know they've relocated some of the graves to St Kilda Cemetery (from the quarantine ship Glen Huntly), but there still could be ghosts around.
McLimit
2nd Mar 2021, 09:34
I think the main point of the question which was asked, is it legal for a parachutist to go through complete cloud cover?
100% legal, and safe for that matter. Some of those caravans are very nicely equipped. Most of the pilots are top notch operators.
Duck Pilot
2nd Mar 2021, 09:58
100% legal? Ok, provide the regulatory reference to substantiate your opinion.
le Pingouin
2nd Mar 2021, 10:16
100% legal? Ok, provide the regulatory reference to substantiate your opinion.
megan's post #14:
https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/638964-torquay-skydive-ops.html#post11000170
le Pingouin
2nd Mar 2021, 10:22
At the time I was there I was 99% certain that the aircraft was not operating under the IFR, hence my question.
If they sometimes do, then fair enough, I now know that and I guess that’s good for safety, however on this occasion, conditions were IMC and clearances for IFR were not being issued as far as I could ascertain.
This all comes down to the pilot as to whether or not they decide at the time that conditions are VMC and or if they will punch through because it’s “not that thick.”
As for the suggestion that at Point Ormond they are climbing and descending through IMC under VFR does sound somewhat concerning, if that is in fact taking place.
They quite often operate IFR for the first few runs of the day at BRS and TQY. If they're operating below FL125 then clearance isn't required as it's all in G.
le Pingouin
2nd Mar 2021, 13:45
I'm not privy to internal CASA material nor site specific parachuting manuals so you'll have to find that yourself.
AIP: ENR 5.5, 2.1.1.c
c. the descent is able to be made in meteorological conditions where the target is clearly visible and the parachutist does notenter cloud, unless CASA specifies otherwise in writing;
cwatters
2nd Mar 2021, 16:19
In the UK outdoor sports activities aren't meant to reopen until the 29th March. So bit surprised anyone is actually skydiving. Is it just the aircraft being flown to keep them servicable?
Squawk7700
2nd Mar 2021, 19:03
In the UK outdoor sports activities aren't meant to reopen until the 29th March. So bit surprised anyone is actually skydiving. Is it just the aircraft being flown to keep them servicable?
Ah, now i know what you mean.
Australia is Covid free, we can do whatever we want now, we just have to wear a mask in the supermarket and if you’re a drug dealer, you can’t have more than 30 customers at your house in the one day. Otherwise, a few other limitations exists but most people wouldn’t be affect by them.
spektrum
2nd Mar 2021, 23:21
Is it just me or does it seem people are getting dumber by the day?
You've got someone from the UK thinking this Torquay is the one up there. Other 'professional' pilots not knowing the difference between IFR and IMC as well as not knowing when and for what a clearance is required. Get me a bucket.
Squawk7700
3rd Mar 2021, 01:13
Other 'professional' pilots not knowing the difference between IFR and IMC as well as not knowing when and for what a clearance is required.
You might be missing the point.
IMC with no clearance would imply VFR ops into IMC.
Join the dots.
Well, if allowed it would scare the hell out of me parachuting through solid cloud not knowing when you will be visual againDid it ever occur to you that there would be a minimum cloud base altitude stipulated?
mcoates
3rd Mar 2021, 03:34
Did it ever occur to you that there would be a minimum cloud base altitude stipulated?
No...... I would have thought that it would be illegal for a parachutist to enter cloud and lose visibility with the drop zone just like it is for pilots losing visibility.
Parachutists don't hold an IFR rating to fly in IMC conditions or have suitable instruments except gravity to navigate and with these wing suit thingies they can travel a long way from where they left the aircraft, well outside they dedicated/allocated drop zone.
I just don't get it.
Capt Fathom
3rd Mar 2021, 04:12
People have been jumping out of aeroplanes for years. I think they have it down to a reasonably fine art by now.
Governed by the Australian Parachute Federation. Their website is quite interesting, and there is a copy of their Regulation Manual for all to see... including the Chapter on Cloud Jumping!
spektrum
3rd Mar 2021, 05:56
No...... I would have thought that it would be illegal for a parachutist to enter cloud and lose visibility with the drop zone just like it is for pilots losing visibility.
It is legal to freefall through cloud. It is not legal to fly a canopy through cloud. Hope this helps.
mmm345
3rd Mar 2021, 07:43
You can operate IFR without a ' clearance' if your OCTA as you stated earlier it was in Class G. To be honest, the only radio calls he wouldve been required to make were a taxi/ airborne report and a departure report. The rest ( descents, traffic etc) would all be associated with the cleared to drop radio calls.
NaFenn
4th Mar 2021, 00:07
IMC with no clearance would imply VFR ops into IMC.
Clearances have nothing to do with whether you can operate IFR... you dont need ATC permission to be IFR. RPT aircraft can operate OCTA in IMC under the IFR without a clearance (and I have on several occasions), exactly the same as any other aircraft. Clearances are only required INSIDE controlled airspace, they have nothing to do with the rules you operate under - what changes is the service ATC provide (traffic information, etc).
No...... I would have thought that it would be illegal for a parachutist to enter cloud and lose visibility with the drop zone just like it is for pilots losing visibility.
Parachutists don't hold an IFR rating to fly in IMC conditions or have suitable instruments except gravity to navigate and with these wing suit thingies they can travel a long way from where they left the aircraft, well outside they dedicated/allocated drop zone.
I just don't get it.The fact you don't get it is down to ignorance, visit a drop zone and talk to the folk. What they do is in accordance with rules laid down by CASA. It's not illegal for pilots to lose visibility if they happen to be abiding by the rules, some pilots of plastic fantastics obviously don't qualify.
IFR rating for freefall through cloud without instruments - you're joking right? What do you think the slipstream generated by freefall is telling you?
mcoates
4th Mar 2021, 09:04
IFR rating for freefall through cloud without instruments - you're joking right? What do you think the slipstream generated by freefall is telling you?
And you fell for it - Hook, line and sinker...
The Bullwinkle
4th Mar 2021, 10:21
Genuine question....
They were dropping through solid 8/8’s which is as far as I know legit, but what about the 208? I heard plenty of CTAF calls and drop and descent clearances, but no talk of IFR clearance. Cloud was solid 8/8 at 4,000ft and at least 500ft thick.
Am I missing something about how the operation works with regards to clearances?
What date are you referring to?
If it’s the same date as your post, i.e. 1st of March, then I can assure you that it wasn’t 8/8ths cover!
Squawk7700
4th Mar 2021, 10:45
Wasn’t the 1st, I don’t fly on Mondays.
Are you all telling me they follow the IFR/VFR rules all the time?
Ha ha that’s funny, pull the other one, it plays jingle bells.
Iceman14753
5th Mar 2021, 12:45
Genuine question....
They were dropping through solid 8/8’s which is as far as I know legit, but what about the 208? I heard plenty of CTAF calls and drop and descent clearances, but no talk of IFR clearance. Cloud was solid 8/8 at 4,000ft and at least 500ft thick.
Am I missing something about how the operation works with regards to clearances?
.Yes its all legit. VH-MMV is IFR capable and I can 100% assure you that on the day you are talking about it would've been operating IFR. It was either myself or the other guy flying. I would have had a code that I was using all day and would have just been letting Centre know I was airborne and what level I was climbing.
As for the skydivers they operate under a Cloud Jumping Manual which is specific for each drop zone and is approved by CASA.
There is no way I would be VFR punching through it. I need those actual IF hours!