RAF C-130J's to be retired early?

[esscee]

Not trying to start a slanging match or anything similar but it appears MOD is thinking about NOT keeping the J's until 2035. Well the good old bean counters think they can save spending on an upgrade by using those very noisy Airbus A-400's instead. As you can hear those A-400's even when they are at 25,000 ft, they are not going to be much use for carrying our troops from Hereford around in any "stealthy" manner are they.

[Boeing Jet]

Half expected this to happen and not really surprised in todays climate, a really shame flew on these several times whilst in the air force. It has served many air forces worldwide in various roles, but hope it has a bit bit more time left in service in the UK!!

[NRU74]

But the J’s not as fast as the A400 according to today’s Daily Mail article ‘Death of Hercules’ which puts its speed at 889 mph!
(Yes, I know I shouldn’t read such a rag)

[Kilonovember52]

Expect the Herc to be gone by 2023 possibly 2025. All work on upgrades has been stopped

[The...Bird]

The C-17's will do a much better job than the A400's so why not use them?

[ExAscoteer2]

Madness, Utter madness. Albert was retained for the SF role. A400 and C17 cannot satisfy that role.

[The...Bird]

Hopefully it doesn't go through and they realise the stupidity and insanity of it.

[Kilonovember52]

I know someone who works within the Herc community at Brize. The expectation there is that the fleet will be chopped probably by 2023 not beyond 25.

[pr00ne]

Rumours rumours rumours! None of you know the facts. Anybody would think this was a bloody rumour site...

[Ken Scott]

The A400M is a good strat aircraft but has serious flaws with regard to the Tac environment. It would be a major error to withdraw the C130J before the Atlas has overcome its problems. If it ever does...

[The B Word]

Looks alright to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQk5a0z_rW4

[BEagle]

The A400M is a good strat aircraft but has serious flaws with regard to the Tac environment.

Which are?

This is like the old 'J' vs. 'K' bolleaux of PPRuNe many years ago. Only even more absurd.....

[ShotOne]

Bolleaux indeed; +one to that. C130 might be slightly quieter, but it’s hardly “stealthy”

[throwaway1]

To oversimplify, J is a K with knobs on that never got cleared for the full gamut of capabilities that the legacy aircraft could perform. It is still a C-130 with decades of accumulated knowledge and experience to know what it can do, which is a lot! The A400m is a brand new aircraft designed by people who make fantastic airliners - and that is reflected in what happens up front and how well it performs in the bits that look like airliner ops - but the disconnect comes when airdrop or any military specific action is required. This is either because it simply hasn’t been released for use by Airbus yet in the block upgrades - for the sake of avoiding journos scraping things out of context I’ll avoid mentioning specifics - or because it simply hasn’t been tested and introduced as a feature.

There are - as always - two mindsets at work. One which simply assumes this new aircraft should do the same as the old aircraft but with bigger numbers. The second thinks we should reassess what the requirements for a TacAT / SF Support aircraft are, which will save cash in T&E, Training, Aircraft Fatigue etc. The first group - usually operators of previous types - will always slate the second as apologists for when the new aircraft can’t do a particular skill the old one could, but as time and tech progresses, will we need to have our A400M wazzing around at OLF (or even low level other than over the DZ) or dropping a multitude of different store types (of which only a ew ever get used)? The line is there somewhere but in n age where capability doesn’t trump cash and risk aversion is king, my money’s on the 400 being a Strat Airifter with some lite-tac capability as its cheaper and safer.

[TBM-Legend]

Looks alright to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQk5a0z_rW4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmQMexr_Ok8)


So why does the A400M have a black radome when its peers worldwide seem to paint them in the aircraft colours? Seems odd!

[Ken Scott]

Looks alright to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmQMexr_Ok8)

There’s a bit more to Tac flying than wazzing down the Mac Loop.

This is probably not the (open) forum for a discussion of the competing capabilities of the types.

[sycamore]

Convert some to Tac 2/3 point tankers.....

[ORAC]

The more difficult question is, if money and manpower for new kit requires something (as in a fleet with all costs in support it implies) has to go - what would you chop instead?

Other rumours indicating, of course, as usual, that the Puma fleet and RAF Regiment are also already on the possible chop list.....

[throwaway1]

Purposefully being controversial: If A400M can carry most of what a C-17 does in terms of physical size and distance, and there are more of them, it might make sense to find savings in the aircraft whose remaining USP could be outsourced to a chartered Antonov on the odd occasion it’s required. This would have the secondary benefit of building up the A400M. I’m sure the what-if brigade will come along citing requirements for an organic outsize airlift capability in the event of situation X but is that any more of a watertight argument than the ones made by the C-130 guys but replace ‘outsize airlift’ with ‘specialist tactical airlift’?

[The B Word]

Still looks good to me... :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isnyXB9fpNk

[The B Word]

And again...

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x534/image_def756d5c6d4e31212f6591c27f2ffe78377add7.png

and again...


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1360x907/image_26ebcb68171a64eda73f3293264f41cf2056a189.jpeg

[chopper2004]

The more difficult question is, if money and manpower for new kit requires something (as in a fleet with all costs in support it implies) has to go - what would you chop instead?

Other rumours indicating, of course, as usual, that the Puma fleet and RAF Regiment are also already on the possible chop list.....

In my first neck of the wood, there are already concerns about the Marshalls move and now this. I’ve assured friends and acquaintances as long as the Swedes, the Danes, the Dutch, the Kuwaitis and Qataris and now the USN/USMC fly them, then the Herks will always be seen and heard. In fact I was taking a stroll through Fen Ditton few weeks back when I caught this Dutch one on approach for some u/c work.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/a0900b27_f00a_48c4_8bec_42d8849803d6_3758bcb288f7fcdac93c40a 60e0e5feaba7d3c7f.jpeg

also before Xmas, took a stroll down Coldhams Lane and saw the first of many Marine Corps KC-130J (it’s still here lasti heard) to arrive for maintenance work.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/6a2c2667_8f30_40e1_bc0a_d396afd430de_09e3f0a58249f522ec819a7 32dffcd4a76bed0cb.jpeg


Puma situation is the equivalent of a heart or an organ transplant anyhow with the replacement penned in with this weeks International Military Helicopter conference.

Was there Not a similar rumor about the Rock Apes around a decade ago??

cheers

[Dan Gerous]

On the 60 years of the Herc thread, there is at least one mention of an RAF Herc going u/s on overseas trips, and spares and assistance offered from the locally based overseas unit operating the Herc. Hard to see that happening with the A400.

[esscee]

Regarding the A400, it was interesting to read about the trip taking vaccines down to ASI. Planned dep day/date, could not start the engines at BZZ, so 24 hour delay. Following day, managed to get airborne and got to Cape Verde for fuel stop, funnily had trouble starting engines again but finally got going and off to ASI. Not quite the best advert for A400, article was in Daily Telegraph last week.

[lancs]

I believe the concept, at least at design phase, was that the Airbus civilian network would be perfectly adequate to distribute the required parts, given that the service element would be "in-house". Long time ago, but I do remember they had an answer to everything. I particularly liked the using of the loading ramp to extend the cargo space!

[Minnie Burner]

Quick question then, while the pundits are assembled: The A400 seems to spend a lot of flying hours flogging from BZN to EXT to shoot a couple of circuits and flog back to BZN again. Surely such mind-numbingly dull aviating is done in a sim.

[MPN11]

We get them here too. It’s a public service to help keep ATCOs current. 😎

[NutLoose]

And here every now and then.

[treadigraph]

We even had one or two at Biggin last summer plus a couple of Hercs... not sure they did touch & goes or go arounds...

[Herod]

C'mon, we all know: the only thing to replace an ageing Herc is a newer Herc. :ok:

[Dan Gerous]

Well this was a nice surprise over the Scottish Borders at half ten this morning.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x600/omen_1_18d3cfd491ca89936145aa50841440b70c99fa14.jpg

[dead_pan]

Surely that bit of the Venn diagram which shows what the Herc can do which the A400 cannot is pretty small and diminishing (much as I love the Herc, growing up as I did under the shadow of Lyneham)?

As for SF uses, there are plenty of off-the-shelf civvy options which could meet that need (Kodiak, Caravan - hell even the mighty Skyvan!). Why not add this capability to JSFAW as they did with the Dauphin?

[esscee]

So a Skyvan can fly from ASI to Argentina as was mulled over in 1982? Don't think so, might need a few fuel stops!

[dead_pan]

Don't think so, might need a few fuel stops!

Could an '82 vintage Herc have done this without refuelling?

PS A mulled over op isn't actually an op.

[Minnie Burner]

We get them here too. It’s a public service to help keep ATCOs current. 😎
Forgive my emoji naivety; do the sunglasses indicate sarcasm or are you suggesting that the CAA is funding A400 flights instead of using commercial assets? Or, again, simulators?

[Davef68]

One would almost think there was a defence review ongoing, what with all the leaking to encourage public/political outrage!

[The...Bird]

https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1365575745716842496?s=20

The A400 might 'look' good (Not in my opinion compared to the C130 and C17) but in reality it's an Airbus in a military disguise.

[chopper2004]

So a Skyvan can fly from ASI to Argentina as was mulled over in 1982? Don't think so, might need a few fuel stops!

Well the Argentine Coasties lost theirs under barrage of Naval gunfire ....

US Army had one example of a Skyvan ( confiscated from a drug smuggler) in the 80s, and didn’t decade or two earlier approach Shorts to look into the Skyvan for SEA?

cheers

[PapaDolmio]

Surely that bit of the Venn diagram which shows what the Herc can do which the A400 cannot is pretty small and diminishing (much as I love the Herc, growing up as I did under the shadow of Lyneham)?

As for SF uses, there are plenty of off-the-shelf civvy options which could meet that need (Kodiak, Caravan - hell even the mighty Skyvan!). Why not add this capability to JSFAW as they did with the Dauphin?

MV-22 for JSFAW. Simiilar/ longer range, than a CH47? Big enough for the majority of SF taking, faster than a CH47, para capable, able to get into confined areas, smaller and more agile than a herc- less observable, fast rope capable, USL- only thing I guess the herc- beats it on is range?

Might be able to afford one or two?

[Bengerman]

We should all know by now, it has little to do with capability, it has little to do with role, it has little to do with service requirement. It has everything to do with politics. MOD have been told they have to save £XXX,000,000 so that someone's company, in no way related to a minister, can be paid a fortune for PPE. COVID has to be paid for so the low hanging fruit is an easy target before the more difficult financial decisions have to be made.

[ExAscoteer2]

As for SF uses, there are plenty of off-the-shelf civvy options which could meet that need (Kodiak, Caravan - hell even the mighty Skyvan!). Why not add this capability to JSFAW as they did with the Dauphin?

So we can a capability and then buy a new a/c? Yeah that's sensible, NOT! :rolleyes:

[Just This Once...]

Off-the-shelf... ok, I'll have a go:

- Long Range Deep Insertion (ie the job at hand)
- Land on a typical light-aircraft strip / beach / frozen lake / jungle clearing / riverbed (the enemy may be less helpful than RAF movers if you arrive at their air terminal)
- Can carry SF vehicles, 'civilian' vehicles, quads, snowmobiles, boats (as SF don't like to walk, swim or ski absolutely everywhere)
- Ruggedised against small-arms, credible MANPAD defence systems, ESM / RF countermeasures (customer actually wants to get there or get back)
- Secure comms, datalinks, IFF, IDM, BFT etc (as the customer has moved-on from pigeons and invasion stripes)
- Pump fuel and provide rearming for helicopters that don't go very far on their own (see aversion to walking and swimming above)
- Provide airdrop from stupidly high to stupidly low (see both getting there and living there above)
- Provide interoperability with and for a select few international allies
- Do it all by day or by night in the most demanding of terrains

I could add a few more but I'd guess that off-the-shelf starts to look like a C-130 very quickly. No doubt a classified list would be considerably larger than the broad strokes above.

Of course, I am just a bloke typing stuff on the internet.

[chopper2004]

Off-the-shelf... ok, I'll have a go:

- Long Range Deep Insertion (ie the job at hand)
- Land on a typical light-aircraft strip / beach / frozen lake / jungle clearing / riverbed (the enemy may be less helpful than RAF movers if you arrive at their air terminal)
- Can carry SF vehicles, 'civilian' vehicles, quads, snowmobiles, boats (as SF don't like to walk, swim or ski absolutely everywhere)
- Ruggedised against small-arms, credible MANPAD defence systems, ESM / RF countermeasures (customer actually wants to get there or get back)
- Secure comms, datalinks, IFF, IDM, BFT etc (as the customer has moved-on from pigeons and invasion stripes)
- Pump fuel and provide rearming for helicopters that don't go very far on their own (see aversion to walking and swimming above)
- Provide airdrop from stupidly high to stupidly low (see both getting there and living there above)
- Provide interoperability with and for a select few international allies
- Do it all by day or by night in the most demanding of terrains

I could add a few more but I'd guess that off-the-shelf starts to look like a C-130 very quickly. No doubt a classified list would be considerably larger than the broad strokes above.

Of course, I am just a bloke typing stuff on the internet.

Senior Citizen ring a bell with anyone?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/25314/the-mysterious-saga-of-the-usafs-hunt-for-a-stealth-special-operations-transport-part-1

cheers

[El Bunto]

As you can hear those A-400's even when they are at 25,000 ft, they are not going to be much use for carrying our troops from Hereford around in any "stealthy" manner are they.

Considering I just stood and listened to an MC-130J moaning past 10 miles to the south and at 24,000ft there's not much difference in acoustic stealth...

[Dan Gerous]

Considering I just stood and listened to an MC-130J moaning past 10 miles to the south and at 24,000ft there's not much difference in acoustic stealth...

There is when they are at 100 feet :)

[Lyneham Lad]

Having lived for years under a Herc approach path, their acoustic footprint is much, much smaller than that produced by an A400.

[Herod]

I don't think the A400 has yet landed on a carrier?

[Kilonovember52]

With the likelihood that the C130 will get binned into todays defence cuts what the chance that the MOD / RAF will look buy some 2nd hand A400M's from the Germans, French or Spanish? A quick calculation on cargo capacity indicates that the current 14 Hercs could be replaced by 5 A400M's

[ZH875]

...... A quick calculation on cargo capacity indicates that the current 14 Hercs could be replaced by 5 A400M's

But cannot be in 6 or more places at the same time

[throwaway1]

With the likelihood that the C130 will get binned into todays defence cuts what the chance that the MOD / RAF will look buy some 2nd hand A400M's from the Germans, French or Spanish? A quick calculation on cargo capacity indicates that the current 14 Hercs could be replaced by 5 A400M's

Probably the line of thought taken by the people potentially axing the C-130 based on Top Trump numbers and not what it can actually do with that carrying capacity.

[Mil-26Man]

But cannot be in 6 or more places at the same time

Indeed, this is the misplaced reasoning that got the UK originally replacing 50 C-130s with 25 A400Ms (twice the payload or twice the range). Doesn't matter how capable a platform is, it can only be in one place at a time.

[A4scooter]

Reading an article on the Dutch Air Force Hercules replacement, they have already rejected the A400 as its "less operationally agile", which I presume means its too big for many of the tasks.
Other A400 operators obviously think the same as the Germans intend to keep the C130, the French also intend to keep the C130 & also operate the C235M, Spain, Turkey and Malaysia also operate the C235M
I'm sure there is a market for 2nd hand RAF C130s especially after fitting of new centre wings, but in a volatile world, politically and environmentally the C130 is still an aircraft much needed by the UK.
Unless the Hercules are replaced this is the transport fleet been cut not modernised

[Stratnumberone]

Indeed, this is the misplaced reasoning that got the UK originally replacing 50 C-130s with 25 A400Ms (twice the payload or twice the range). Doesn't matter how capable a platform is, it can only be in one place at a time.
twice the payload, twice the range. Twice the cost, too. At least!

[Ken Scott]

And half as reliable.

[flyingkeyboard]

Gone in 2023 according to the statement.

[Baldeep Inminj]

C130 gone in 2023.

[Stratnumberone]

And half as reliable.
As much as half?!

[Ken Scott]

As much as half?!?!

I was matching the mathematical sequencing of the previous poster. The day-to-day reality of A400 availability & reliability is indeed far worse.

[Non Linear Gear]

Chop.chop,chop.

[cclowe1972]

Have heard rumours of keeping a small fleet of Hercs specifically to do the SF role and anything the A400 can't. Can anyone confirm? Makes a lot of sense to me.

[etudiant]

Have heard rumours of keeping a small fleet of Hercs specifically to do the SF role and anything the A400 can't. Can anyone confirm? Makes a lot of sense to me.

There go the expected cost savings....

[throwaway1]

That’s already where we are supposed to be now. Albeit the green army still aren’t getting anything from A400M in terms of Airborne Assault and resupply, or in-theatre airlift, so the C-130 stagged on with all that as well as having been chopped away in aircraft and crews and are stretched thin as a result. If A400M steps up in a few non-specialist areas then it *might* work if the scope of C-130 operations is narrowed by a lot.

[sycamore]

Just wondering how the MOD will dispose of them..? Giveaways to the USAF,or other countries...?
`Parker`s Guide` to 2nd hand Herks `never raced,or rallied,kept in garage overnight,full Service history`, might suggest the they are worth between £20-25 m each,so they could ,if the MOD are `canny`(and they are usually not),recoup £280-350m...but that will also mean ,they`ll have to pay-off Marshalls a lot in compensation...so there might only be enough left to buy 1 new A400,or 1 F35 at £100m each.....

[Valiantone]

Well so far Bangladesh Bahrain and the US Navy have done well from the other short Hercs

[exhorder]

Judging from the way used vintage (E and H model) Hercs are still scooped up by air forces all around the world, I would imagine the ex-RAF J-30 fleet being pretty attractive to all sorts of countries. Depends on their condition of course.

[Ken Scott]

I would imagine the ex-RAF J-30 fleet being pretty attractive to all sorts of countries.

That and the fact that the Germans and French have bought Js to fill the gaps in the A400s capabilities should be an object lesson to the SoS for Defence whose decision it was to can the ac. Clearly saving a (relatively) small amount of cash trumps a significant loss of capability which is not what the defence review was meant to be about.

[Doctor Cruces]

That and the fact that the Germans and French have bought Js to fill the gaps in the A400s capabilities should be an object lesson to the SoS for Defence whose decision it was to can the ac. Clearly saving a (relatively) small amount of cash trumps a significant loss of capability which is not what the defence review was meant to be about.
Of course it should be an object lesson but I'd be willing to bet it won't. Our procurement/planners have been woeful in that regard for decades, probably longer.

[Asturias56]

One of the guiding principles was to scrap anything that was costing maintenance and replace (eventually, maybe..) with new - same with the frigates and the Warriors

[Stratnumberone]

Of course it should be an object lesson but I'd be willing to bet it won't. Our procurement/planners have been woeful in that regard for decades, probably longer.
I think this whole sorry saga puts to bed once and for all any discussion about whether or not the Government gives a monkeys about capability as a primary factor. Capability comes a long way behind such factors as saving money and supporting ventures that create UK jobs. Clearly there’s nothing wrong with being financially prudent and ensuring British jobs but it would be nice to see a balance. Personally I believe that in time the A400 will make an excellent asset (although I can’t see it performing some of the esoteric roles as well as the Herc) but I am very tired of hearing people talking about its’ “potential” as if that justifies dumping a CURRENT capability. It doesn’t. It’s going to a complete mess in 2023 because when we get there we will discover something considerably wider than a capability ‘gap’.

[SLXOwft]

Last year the RNZAF announced it had agreed a price of nearly USD 1 billion (NZD 1.5 bn) for 5 C-130J-30s plus a Sim and 'supporting infrastructure" for delivery 2024-25. Just saying ...

I presume a number of sims, a rear cabin trainer and other rigs will become surplus. Have any C.4s, beyond the one returned in August last year, received the replacement centre wingbox?


On a note of levity. The OSD gives the chance to plan a formation farewell tour to former bases. May be in the light of Boris's East of Suez ambitions that could include Changi via Akrotiri rather than the extended circuit of Brize Norton, Lyneham, Fairford, Thorney Island, Farnborough, Cambridge(?), Brize Norton.:)

[The...Bird]

Given the current and possible future situation, surely retiring the Hercs now would be an absurd thing to do and also look ignorant?

[Ken Scott]

Given the current and possible future situation, surely retiring the Hercs now would be an absurd thing to do and also look ignorant?


Yes, totally. Unlikely to stop it happening though. They’ve probably already spent ‘the saving’ on some rainbow flags and new artwork for Main Building.

[Stratnumberone]

Yes, totally. Unlikely to stop it happening though. They’ve probably already spent ‘the saving’ on some rainbow flags and new artwork for Main Building.

And those lovely new uniforms.

[A4scooter]

Apparently the RAF will get additional A400s which implies 22 x A400 aren’t enough after the Hercules are withdrawn.
The Ukraine situation should be a wake up call for our politicians & although a capability gap may save the Treasury some money it leaves us in a dangerous situation & unable to fulfill some roles.
We have lost the Sentinel, the Sentry replacement isn’t going enter until next year & the withdraw of the Hercules will leave us with insufficient transport aircraft - although I believe we should keep the Hercules, if they are going to withdraw them you would hope because of the Ukrainian situation they will delay it until the additional A400 enter service.

[melmothtw]

Apparently the RAF will get additional A400s which implies 22 x A400 aren’t enough after the Hercules are withdrawn

Not only the loss of the C-130s, but the C-17s won't keep going forever and there is no obvious strategic airlifter to replace them. I would imagine an A400M only airlift fleet for the RAF (that is, until they finally realise that the A400M is too big for some roles, and buy the C295/C-27J to do the lower end stuff)

[TBM-Legend]

Set the surplus C-130J's aside for the new Ukraine Air Force after this current mess is sorted out.

[oldmansquipper]

Overheard in the office of the head honcho bean counter in the treasury this week.

”bugger! I thought I told you to get rid of those bloody planes and all that expensive infrastructure before the next conflict! “

[Ken Scott]

Definition of an accountant: someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

[CAEBr]

Here is a link to the MoD sales brochure for a fleet of unwanted C130Js.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... re_34_.pdf (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1111084/C130J_Brochure_34_.pdf)

Beyond irony, in bigging them up, presumably for a quick cash sale, the brochure is basically a long list of reasons why we shouldn't be selling them, for example, "The aircraft that goes where others can’t, won’t or don’t!”

[airsound]

CAEBr - Beyond irony, in bigging them up, presumably for a quick cash sale, the brochure is basically a long list of reasons why we shouldn't be selling them,
I do so agree. The brochure also describes the C-130J as The airlifter of choice
So why the f*** are they selling the damn things???

airsound (ex trucky)

[DaveReidUK]

Definition of an accountant: someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Do you mean all accountants are cynics, or all cynics are accountants ?

[ORAC]

Defence Sales - wanna buy a C-130J….

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1111084/C130J_Brochure_34_.pdf

[CAEBr]

Defence Sales - wanna buy a C-130J….

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1111084/C130J_Brochure_34_.pdf

ORAC,
Try my #79 from this morning :ok:

[NutLoose]

psst

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9M_F3OHF1k


https://youtu.be/C9M_F3OHF1k

[sycamore]

nothing seen, nutty..?

[Herod]

Sycamore. One way round this is to select "quote", then go to "copy link address". Open a new tab. "paste and go to". Works. It's what I use to follow the Twitter links on the Ukraine site.

It looks like just what we need. maybe the RAF should buy some.

[NutLoose]

I have added it in quotes, I didn't realise we had the same problem with Utube, my apologies.. The RAF made a Herc sales film.


https://youtu.be/C9M_F3OHF1k

[Asturias56]

"maybe the RAF should buy some"

With what ? the likelihood is more cuts not more money

[airsound]

I've just - well, half an hour ago - had an email notification that David Thompson has replied to this thread. But his reply has not materialised, which makes me think it has been binned by someone frightfully important.

Just in case it's merely a cockup, here's what he offered - a succinct summing of the situation so far from the Dutch Aviation Society Scramble online mag.
https://www.scramble.nl/military-news/raf-hercules-fleet-for-sale
Can't see why we shouldn't see this - anyone?

airsound

[Asturias56]

Can't see why it might be canned - it just tells us what we pretty much know anyway - maybe the mods don't like embedded links tho' they've become hard to see recently on and some posts (check some of ORAC's for example) appear totally blank - but if you hit "Quote" the embedded link appears

[T28B]

I've just - well, half an hour ago - had an email notification that David Thompson has replied to this thread. But his reply has not materialised, which makes me think it has been binned by someone frightfully important.
That did not happen.
https://www.scramble.nl/military-news/raf-hercules-fleet-for-sale
airsound According to what I can see, David Thompson deleted it himself.
Thank you for following up, in case others find that article to be of interest.
T28B

[airsound]

OK, thanks T28B!
Although the piece didn't tell us much that was new, it did tell it in a succinct way - and I also thought it was of interest that it came from a Dutch site.

airsound

[Stratofreighter]

https://t.co/011Xzbctoy

Final RAF C-130J mission set for 17 June 2023 as Hercules retirement nears

17-04-2023

The UK’s long history as an operator of the Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules will all but come to an end on 17 June 2023
when the Royal Air Force (RAF) performs its final mission with the type.

Consisting of a three-ship fly-past as part of the King’s Birthday celebrations,
the sortie will be a bittersweet moment
ahead of the official retirement of the RAF’s remaining J-model aircraft on 30 June 2023.

Defence officials announced in 2021’s Integrated Review
that the 15-strong C-130J fleet would be retired by 2023 due to cost savings,
with operations transitioning to the Airbus Defence & Space A400M.

That date was subsequently extended until end-June due to availability issues with the European type.

Group Captain Gareth Burdett, Commander Air Wing – Air Mobility, says just six Hercules remain in RAF service.

Those already withdrawn from use have been relocated to Marshall Aerospace in Cambridge
where they are being prepared for sale.

Although concerns had been raised at the A400M’s ability to take on all the missions performed by the smaller C-130J,
Burdett says the Atlas has risen to the challenge.

“There will be some capability gaps in very niche areas, https://scramble.nl/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif
all of the capability improvements have been significantly accelerated https://scramble.nl/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif
since the decision to sunset the Hercules was taken.

“Many have been brought forward by a number of years and the most critical capabilities have had the gap eradicated.”

He cites the A400M’s better range and payload over the C-130J,
and its short-runway performance, as key attributes for end-users.

“What our customers are saying is
that they appreciate the benefits and enhancements
the A400M can bring over the C-130
in almost every regard that enables them to deliver their mission more effectively,” he says.

Reliability and availability have been a concern for all users of the A400M,
with the type’s Europrop TP400 engines posing a particular issue.

Burdett says the situation has improved thanks to joint efforts by Airbus Defence & Space and the Ministry of Defence, adding:
“While we are yet to see the full benefit that their brochure promised,
certainly we are seeing a stable and useable amount of aircraft
that reflects the availability we’d expect from other [transport aircraft] fleets.”

The RAF as operates 21 A400Ms; a 22nd and final example will be delivered by the end of the month, adds Burdett.

The UK has been a C-130 operator since the mid-1960s, taking delivery of its latest J-model examples from 1999.

[Ken Scott]

A sad but inevitable day, the RAF may regret losing the J in the longer term at a time when the French & Germans have acquired them to supplement their A400M fleets. The latter is a good aircraft but availability and reliability are questionable, particularly where tactical missions are concerned. Even if A400M is able to step up to the mark it still represents a considerable loss of aircraft and a reduction in the potential effort the AT force is able to project.

[Asturias56]

Is there any role that hasn't seen a "considerable loss of aircraft"?

I guess if you buy the latest (and theoretically most capable) and don't increase the budget to match you finish up a lot less airframes.

[SASless]

The RAF will use J Models to celebrate the King's Birthday.....now that folks is cost savings RAF style for. you!

Are there no A400's available for that tasking?

[Shackman]

Presumably one of the many capability gaps in very niche areas

[melmothtw]

Is there any role that hasn't seen a "considerable loss of aircraft"?

I guess if you buy the latest (and theoretically most capable) and don't increase the budget to match you finish up a lot less airframes.

Precisely the logic that persuaded the MoD that we need half as many A400Ms as they are 'twice as capable' as the C-130.

[SASless]

Someone will be along to edit this list I presume.


https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Lockheed_C-130_Hercules_operators

[safetypee]

"… they are 'twice as capable' as the C-130."

But not at the same place at the same time.

One A400 ≠ Two C-130.

[melmothtw]

"… they are 'twice as capable' as the C-130."

But not at the same place at the same time.

One A400 ≠ Two C-130.

Thanks, I guess the single quotes were too subtle.

[dead_pan]

The RAF will use J Models to celebrate the King's Birthday.....now that folks is cost savings RAF style for. you!

Are there no A400's available for that tasking?

2 Hercs have been practicing around Brize...flying a vic with one Atlas in the lead. Just to prove a point I guess....

[Asturias56]

Precisely the logic that persuaded the MoD that we need half as many A400Ms as they are 'twice as capable' as the C-130.


Of course - it's the same logic that has seen a steady decrease in submarines, surface escorts, Marine Recce, fighters, tanks..... eventually it leads to Augustine's famous Law XVI:- In the year 2054, the entire defense budget will purchase just one aircraft. This aircraft will have to be shared by the Air Force and Navy 3-1/2 days each per week except for leap year, when it will be made available to the Marines for the extra day.

[Imagegear]

Great, I'm sure Ukraine would appreciate a high capability, tactical transport, at a scrap value price, with access to an extensive range of parts, and with support and maintenance capability, everywhere.

Tell me I am smoking my socks..

IG

[SASless]

Has MoD determined what the minimum force manning and equipment requirements are for Ceremonial Duties...... and is that the ultimate target for MoD? Just asking for a friend!

[Kick the tyres]

I find it quite unsettling that the C-130J seems to be on an unstoppable journey towards premature retirement despite the current state of world affairs.

The Ukraine war could get out of hand at any time, and require immediate mobilisation of our armed forces, along with subsequent transportation and supply flights. It seems almost cavalier to underestimate the seriousness of the situation in Europe, and proceed with this defence reduction at this time.

This isnt neccesarily about comparing the A400m and the C-130J, they can compliment each other. This is purely about the numbers of available tac aircraft, and the heightened chance that they may well all be extensivelly called upon to support the UKs aims in the not too distant future.

The loss of 5 x C-130s during Iraq/ Afghanistan operations also highlighted the need for sufficient numbers of assets.

Please can someone stop this defence reduction madness until the doomsday clock is falling back from this " time of unprecedented danger"

[Asturias56]

Far too late - they've been running the force down for years and have stretched the retirement date so they have enough airframes for the Coronation fly past

This horse bolted years ago

[Ken Scott]

Indeed, only 5 frames are still flying, the rest awaiting ‘disposal’.

[Kick the tyres]

Far too late - they've been running the force down for years and have stretched the retirement date so they have enough airframes for the Coronation fly past

This horse bolted years ago

There is never a too late moment. The use of the Vulcans during the Falklands proved that. It just needs acknowledgement by the government that we may well need those assets before too long.

[pr00ne]

There is never a too late moment. The use of the Vulcans during the Falklands proved that. It just needs acknowledgement by the government that we may well need those assets before too long.

And there’s the problem: “by the Government “!

The current Government is an idealogical dogma driven bunch of incompetent self serving bullying charlatans who despise public services and public expenditure and have no interest in defence.

They acknowledge nothing.

[downsizer]

Lets not pretend this is anything other than a penny pinching decision.

[Asturias56]

"The use of the Vulcans during the Falklands proved that."

that was a hot war - and of course they were withdrawn from service as bombers within 7 months of the end of the war.

[Asturias56]

Lets not pretend this is anything other than a penny pinching decision.

Of course - but then the whole of the UK 's armed forces are subject to penny pinching decisions - there are still no votes in increased military spending.

[Kick the tyres]

Lets not pretend this is anything other than a penny pinching decision.
When most people sell stuff, like a house or car, they do it up first or give it a service so they can get more money for it.
Maybe its not a bad idea to service those laid up Hercs first before selling, and then at least they are ready to use if things really hot up in Europe?
If not used then the buyers pay more.

Is that a win win?

[Davef68]

Which CAS was it that decided he only wanted two of any class of aircraft - two jet fighters, two support helicopters, two transport aircraft?

[melmothtw]

Which CAS was it that decided he only wanted two of any class of aircraft - two jet fighters, two support helicopters, two transport aircraft?

Dalton, and I think he decided that's what he could afford rather than that's what he wanted.

I can see the case for two multirole combat aircraft types, where they perform essentially the same function and you're just looking for some redundancy in case there's a problem with one or another type.

It doesn't make sense with transport types though, where a C-17 has a totally different capability set and role to the C-130.

[Asturias56]

People in the Treasury probably advocated he buy 737's - after all they fly people around don't they?

[Thorley1969]

I seem to remember we did up the Harrier fleet but sold them off for next to nothing. Just saying.

[Kick the tyres]

As,reported in todays Telegraph, yet another unexpected call on the soon to reduced Air Transport fleet. This follows the post earthquake Turkey humanitarian flights and the Afghanistan evacuations, and perhaps other last minute calls involving the C-130J.

I don't imagine any of the charter companies being prepared to risk their fleets on this one.

I dearly hope that someone of influence picks up on these posts and has a water cooler chat along the lines of " we can't afford the C-130J with our current funding, but we can't afford to lose it just yet"

Can we have some funding from somewhere please.....?

[bspatz]

Size can be a distinct disadvantage for tactical AT both for manoeuvrability and signature, also the Herc is currently exclusively providing support to the special forces who certainly don't need something the size of an A400.

[Kick the tyres]

I seem to remember we did up the Harrier fleet but sold them off for next to nothing. Just saying.
There was only one potential buyer for the Harrier, but I also think they were just about given away.

I expect that the Hercs will have many countries falling over themselves to buy them, while questioning our sanity.

[melmothtw]

There was only one potential buyer for the Harrier, but I also think they were just about given away.

I expect that the Hercs will have many countries falling over themselves to buy them, while questioning our sanity.

£180 million for 72 Harriers, or thereabouts. The Hercs will go for about £20 ish million each (the US Navy said it paid $19 million for the one short body they bought from us), and yes they will question our sanity.

It's not just the Hercs, most other European F-35 operators are considering increasing their buys (the Netherlands already has), while the UK prevaricates and back tracks on its programme of record, and Germany and Spain are buying more Eurofighters while we try to sell ours off.

[Asturias56]

"Can we have some funding from somewhere please.....?"

Where from? The country has the highest level of taxation for donkey's years - all the doctors will have to be bought off, the T31 program now needs more money................ where do you suggest they get the cash?

[Kick the tyres]

"Can we have some funding from somewhere please.....?"

Where from? The country has the highest level of taxation for donkey's years - all the doctors will have to be bought off, the T31 program now needs more money................ where do you suggest they get the cash?

Every country has financial issues, thats the way it is. But if you can't protect your country then all of the other investments made in your people and infrastructure arent worth a dime.

Putin has been empowered by the arms reductions that all Western countries have made over the years and now those countries are burning through those savings with a proxy war.

Defence isnt cheap, but we cant do without it.

[Asturias56]

The problem is that this isn't the view of the electorate. Military spending comes near the bottom of any list - it's money for Schools, doctors, nurses, care homes, roads, railways that they always demand .... and God forbid pensioners should have to give anything up.

I think it's crazy as well but that's the way the UK (and a lot of other countries) are. :(

[Not Long Here]

Our new (RNZAF) C-130J commences delivery next year - so they are still coming off the production line. I understand there are/were issues with the fatigue life of the current RAF J's having been hammered in the ME but it appears to be the A400 that is the problem. What is the best fleet mix, C-17/A400 or C-17/C-130J (no one disputes the value of the C-17). To my simple mind it is the latter.

[Mr Mac]

Asturias56
The problem with the UK military is a litter historic. We were once a Great Power, as were some other European Nations if you go back far enough. However where those nations have learned to live with their reduced perceived status, the UK has not. These other nations realised what they could afford and structured their procurements and commitments in line with that. In the UK we have a habit of looking backwards rather than forwards, and as a result we end up with some ludicrous defence spending decisions, a prime example being two new aircraft carriers which we appear to struggle to crew, protect and indeed support. However for an island nation we managed to misplace our maritime patrol aircraft until very recent times.

While discussing maritime patrol who was it who signed off on the Nimrod AWACS experiment or even building Challenger tanks ? We have a history of inventing things, but being unable to produce the product to time or budget. Time to be more realistic and talk with countries and companies who can do that and let’s not always think we have to have the highest most expensive toys, because the Ukrainian conflict appears to be showing that you do not need the most expensive or advanced it needs to be good and reliable.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Evalu8ter]

Our current issue stems from Blair’s desire to be the best European he could, probably hoping that he’d get more understanding that way vice the largely sceptical and sometimes confrontational approach of his predecessors. A400 was totemic of that policy, and would have given the RAF a balance of A400/C130 like many in Europe. The issue was Blair’s evangelical appetite for being a ‘force for good’ globally and the lack of AT that could be used to quickly move kit around delivering his message. Antonovs were rarely available when they were needed, and subject to bidding wars. A400 was running seriously late so the lease of C-17s was the fudge; still a good European by not pulling out of Atlas, but able to quickly spread the word of Blair via Strat AT. The rest is, of course, history. The result is that we can’t afford, it seems, to run all three types. C-17 is irreplaceable, A400 too new, so C130 loses out. Capability trumped by cash/politics (again). It leaves the UK in the slightly odd position (since the retirement of the -146) with no cargo lifter between a CH-47 and a A400 (though, of course, you could use two Chinooks…..). It would be interesting to see if there was any cash benefit to running a small fleet of C-27J, but I guess, pan DLoD, it would still be cheaper to retain a similar number of -130Js. Be interesting to see how the RAF proposes to tank the MH-47Gs when they arrive, Airbus had had issues despite more recent success, and half of the Franco/German buy are KC-130s for helo AAR. Its also an admission that A400 is simply too big to be a sensible replacement for the Transall in many roles (especially SF and austere OOA like Mali…).

[melmothtw]

Our current issue stems from Blair’s desire to be the best European he could, probably hoping that he’d get more understanding that way vice the largely sceptical and sometimes confrontational approach of his predecessors. A400 was totemic of that policy, and would have given the RAF a balance of A400/C130 like many in Europe. The issue was Blair’s evangelical appetite for being a ‘force for good’ globally and the lack of AT that could be used to quickly move kit around delivering his message. Antonovs were rarely available when they were needed, and subject to bidding wars. A400 was running seriously late so the lease of C-17s was the fudge; still a good European by not pulling out of Atlas, but able to quickly spread the word of Blair via Strat AT. The rest is, of course, history. The result is that we can’t afford, it seems, to run all three types. C-17 is irreplaceable, A400 too new, so C130 loses out. Capability trumped by cash/politics (again). It leaves the UK in the slightly odd position (since the retirement of the -146) with no cargo lifter between a CH-47 and a A400 (though, of course, you could use two Chinooks…..). It would be interesting to see if there was any cash benefit to running a small fleet of C-27J, but I guess, pan DLoD, it would still be cheaper to retain a similar number of -130Js. Be interesting to see how the RAF proposes to tank the MH-47Gs when they arrive, Airbus had had issues despite more recent success, and half of the Franco/German buy are KC-130s for helo AAR. Its also an admission that A400 is simply too big to be a sensible replacement for the Transall in many roles (especially SF and austere OOA like Mali…).

The A400M dates back to the Future International Military Airlifter (FIMA) of the early 1980s, which is long before Tony Blair.

Also, as much as being "a good European" (I get the impression you meant that in a perjorative sense), Blair's later commitment to the A400M secured thousands of British jobs.

[Asturias56]

"While discussing maritime patrol who was it who signed off on the Nimrod AWACS experiment or even building Challenger tanks ? "

people who read the newspaper editorials on the importance of "buying British" and "saving British jobs"

it would be a brave politician who said "they're bloody useless - we're buying American/French/Brazilian"

[melmothtw]

"While discussing maritime patrol who was it who signed off on the Nimrod AWACS experiment or even building Challenger tanks ? "

people who read the newspaper editorials on the importance of "buying British" and "saving British jobs"

it would be a brave politician who said "they're bloody useless - we're buying American/French/Brazilian"

That's the choice any country makes - to support a domestic defence industry with all the benefits to GDP and jobs, or to buy off the shelf from overseas.

[Asturias56]

The problem occurs when the domestic defence industry seems incapable of producing the goods after they've taken the money - look at Boeing for example

[SLXOwft]

Had a quick scan and I can't see any link/reference to the evidence (Sqn Ldr Rtd.) Andy Netherwood gave to the HC Defence committee on the C-130 https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/12869/pdf/ as part of its sessions on Aviation Procurement. Seems to sum things up nicely.

(emphases in bold are mine)

Q225 Gavin Robinson: Good morning, Mr Netherwood. What is the purpose and function of the air mobility fleet? What impact will the capability cuts announced in the 2021 Defence Command Paper have on the overall ability of the UK’s air mobility force to fulfil its role?

Andy Netherwood: The air mobility force provides fixed-wing air mobility to primarily the Ministry of Defence, but other Government Departments as well. Air mobility is the ability to deploy, sustain and recover personnel and equipment, often over a significant distance. The C-130 has been an important component of the UK air mobility force for many years, providing 14 aircraft that were to be retained until the early 2030s. As you know, that decision was changed in the 2015 Defence Command Paper, and they decided to retire it early this year.

On the impact that will have on the air mobility force, it is helpful to divide that into capability and capacity. In terms of capability, again it is helpful to divide that into two. The first capability loss will be temporary. This refers to the gap between the C-130 being retired and certain niche capabilities being transferred across to the A400M. I have read the evidence from the Chief of the Air Staff and Air Marshal Martin, and I understand that will be complete by 2025. So we are looking at a two-year, or a year-and-a-half gap in some niche capabilities. Some capability loss will be permanent. Having an aircraft that is capable of carrying between 10 and 37 tonnes of cargo, and an aircraft that get into the smallest airfields—something a bit smaller and more discreet than a larger aircraft such as an A400 or a C-17—is very important.

Turning to capacity, on the tactical air mobility side, the loss of the C-130 will result in an approximately one-third cut in the number of tactical air mobility task lines. It is a significant cut in the overall airlift capacity that is available to UK Defence and other Government Departments. That will be enduring, although it will be slightly mitigated if the plan to buy an additional six A400s towards the end of this decade goes ahead.


Q230 Chair: Okay. Would another capability be, for example on a very short runway, or a bumpy dirt track of Hercules can do with ease, and take off, versus the A400 is a lot larger aircraft built to do those sorts of thing?

Andy Netherwood: Yes. Both A400 and C-130 are capable of landing on short, austere strips. I understand that the Committee has been trying to drag out of Airbus and Lockheed which aircraft type can land on the shortest strips. The issue is that calculating aircraft performance depends on a whole bunch of parameters. That makes it easy to adjust those parameters to get the answer that you’re looking for. I have looked at the Airbus figures, which demonstrate that if you’re operating at max C-130 range and with higher payloads, then A400 can operate on the shorter strip. If you’re looking at larger load sizes, whether that load is cargo, fuel or both, then yes, that is going to favour the A400. It is a larger aircraft, so it is more efficient at larger payload and fuel weights.
If you wanted to get into a really small strip, the commander would be choosing a C-130. You can mitigate the range issue in other ways. If you had tiny strip and the C-130 could only get in taking a fairly small amount of fuel out, you could mitigate that either by prepositioning to an airfield closer to where you were going or using air-to-air refuelling. If the strip is too small for an A400, it is too small. You can’t get in. It is as simple as that.
The other issue with operating with small airfields is that airfields with small runways tend to have small aircraft handling platforms as well—small taxiways and small ramps—so you want a smaller aircraft, because otherwise you will find that you will not have room for all the other surfaces. It is not just about the runway.

[ORAC]

RAF aircraft in Sudan extraction of embassy staff was 2 x C-130J…

https://twitter.com/gdarkconrad/status/1650126834175016960?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


​​​​​​​#sudanevacuation
-RAF C130J ZH868
-RAF C130J ZH869

[HUTCHP]

RAF aircraft in Sudan extraction of embassy staff was 2 x C-130J…



#sudanevacuation
-RAF C130J ZH868
-RAF C130J ZH869
Actually , on the ground in Sudan doing the extraction.
A400 ZM404 and C130J ZH868
How to say this.. was lucky enough to be able to listen in on a lot of the Op. Quite a contrast to the US effort who had 6 KC-135's and a KC-10 for AR support plus F-16 escorts for the extraction assets. UK fielded an A400 and C-130 with no AR support which caused quite some issues.

Hutch
​​​​​​​

[SASless]

Was it a Joint OP with close coordination between US and UK forces?

In all likelihood it was a multi-national effort with close coordination of military forces.

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/foreign-states-evacuate-citizens-sudan-2023-04-23/

[HUTCHP]

Was it a Joint OP with close coordination between US and UK forces?

In all likelihood it was a multi-national effort with close coordination of military forces.

https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/foreign-states-evacuate-citizens-sudan-2023-04-23/
Nope I don't think so from what I heard. Seemed like everyone doing their own thing.

Hutch

[Mr Mac]

"While discussing maritime patrol who was it who signed off on the Nimrod AWACS experiment or even building Challenger tanks ? "

people who read the newspaper editorials on the importance of "buying British" and "saving British jobs"

it would be a brave politician who said "they're bloody useless - we're buying American/French/Brazilian"
Asturias56
You can work with the supplier on large enough projects so that you keep some work within your country, you just need to discuss and work with the supplier. There are always deals to be done, or partnerships to be made. The stupidity, and let’s be clear that is what it is, is to be reinvent the wheel on our own. As for saving British jobs care to point to the AWACS jobs or Challenger tank factory.

I know a little about some military projects as I was involved in building some of the infrastructure for them, and I think the British people may want their taxes to be spent actually producing a product that works and comes in on budget and time rather than finance BAE shareholders, and give the poor devils at the sharp end something that works and is there when required.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Top West 50]

The A400M dates back to the Future International Military Airlifter (FIMA) of the early 1980s, which is long before Tony Blair.

Also, as much as being "a good European" (I get the impression you meant that in a perjorative sense), Blair's later commitment to the A400M secured thousands of British jobs.
FLA - Future Large Aircraft c 1994

[BEagle]

As I've explained before:

The Future Large Aircraft (FLA) was originally supposed to replace all the RAF’s large a/c. That proved unfeasible, so the tanker/transport requirement became Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft (FSTA) and another fight arose between A400M and C130J as the Future Transport Aircraft (FTA). FSTA then became a Private Finance Initiative (PFI) project; the preferred platform became the A330 Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) rather than the B767 offered by the rival TTSC. Meanwhile, A400M which had been the FLA was given the go-ahead to be the FTA; however, to fill the gap, a Short Term Strategic Airlifter, STSA, was needed and that became a fight between the An124 and the C-17. The RAF decided upon leased C-17s as STSA to fill the gap before FTA became reality; however, the C-17s were then bought and the STSA became another FTA, but not the sole FTA as that is still the A400M. Which, of course had once been FLA and rejected as FSTA. Nevertheless, the Common Standard Aircraft (CSA) A400M does have a requirement to have an AAR role (except for the RAF), but not as a strategic tanker as that is the job of the FSTA, the A330 MRTT – which also has immense AT capability as well as its AAR capability but is seemingly not considered to be a FTA even though it is.... Although there was, of course, the A310 MRTT in service with other countries but not offered by any of the FSTA bidders even though it had been studied under an earlier project by MoD Department of Future Systems (DFS), as it then was, when a MRTT rather than a FSTA was being considered.

[melmothtw]

FLA - Future Large Aircraft c 1994

The FIMA became the FLA which became the FTA which became the A400M.

[Dominator2]

Since the C130J was an essential element in recent operations maybe the MOD will reconsider their decision on early retirement?

I'm sure that those involved will once again be able to explain the critical gap that the ac fills. If, as a world power the UK needs 3 different types of Tactical Aircraft to provide the capability required, and to keep our people safe, then so be it.

Maybe AM Daltons solution was TOO simple?

[Top West 50]

The FIMA became the FLA which became the FTA which became the A400M.
Thank you. I came in with the FLA TNA.

[A4scooter]

Since the C130J was an essential element in recent operations maybe the MOD will reconsider their decision on early retirement?

I'm sure that those involved will once again be able to explain the critical gap that the ac fills. If, as a world power the UK needs 3 different types of Tactical Aircraft to provide the capability required, and to keep our people safe, then so be it.

Maybe AM Daltons solution was TOO simple?
I doubt they will change their decision as this is obviously a financial, not an operational decision.
Whether it’s the withdraw from Afghanistan, the war in the Ukraine or the current need to withdraw UK nationals from the Sudan we need more, not less transport aircraft. As good as the C17 & Atlas are they can only be in place at once & are too big for some roles, hence apart from Belgium & Luxembourg every other Atlas operator operate smaller aircraft (C130, C235, C295) to supplement their Atlas fleet.

[Asturias56]

"I'm sure that those involved will once again be able to explain the critical gap that the ac fills."

and the treasury will say what are you willing to give up to pay for it? as A4 says above - the decision is financial not operational.

The Govt desperately need to balance the books - in fact they have to CUT even more to be able to cut taxes before the next election as they believe that 's the only thing that will keep them in power.

[campbeex]

From the live updates on the BBC's website regarding the Sudan situation...

"10:08RAF plane takes off north of KhartoumA Royal Air Force plane has departed an airfield north of Sudan's capital Khartoum and is heading to the RAF Akrotiri military base in Cyprus, according to a plane tracking website, (https://www.flightradar24.com/) which BBC News has been monitoring

The flight landed in Sudan just before 09:00 BST and then departed just after 09:30.

The RAF aircraft is a Lockheed C-130J Hercules – a plane which can be used in airlift missions.

It is a military transport aircraft which can land on rough terrain and can hold around 100 people.

The plane is likely to be part of the UK’s attempts to evacuate its citizens out of Sudan. We will continue to monitor its movements and bring you updates."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65371585

[Herod]

Front page of the Times this morning. Evacuation from Sudan. Unless my recognition has died, a C-130, front and centre

[Ken Scott]

A cynic might suggest that it’s better to use the type that you’re about to get rid of rather than risk the ones you’re keeping…

So the use of the C130J might not reflect any perceived value to the type.

[A4scooter]

A cynic might suggest that it’s better to use the type that you’re about to get rid of rather than risk the ones you’re keeping…

So the use of the C130J might not reflect any perceived value to the type.
According to the BBC the RAF dispatched both a Atlas & a C130, but what has happened between the decision to keep the C130 until 2035, the decision to order additional Atlas to replace the Hercules which has been receded & now?
Also, if we have another pandemic & the RAF are required to aid the civil authorities & provide medevac, now the 146 & C130 are gone the smallest available aircraft will be the Atlas.

[SLXOwft]

1206 (A)

Tracking British flights to SudanDaniele Palumbo

BBC Investigative Journalist

BBC News has been tracking RAF flights in and out of Sudan this morning.

Using a plane-tracking website, we have been able to follow a C130 Hercules – a military transport which can carry up to 100 people – flying from an RAF airbase at Akrotiri in Cyprus to an airfield north of the Sudanese capital Khartoum.

So far, it has made two trips to Sudan and is on its way back to Akrotiri (https://fr24.com/RRR9909/300872da)

We’ve also been monitoring flights from the UK to Akrotiri and have tracked a Royal Air Force KC2 :rolleyes: – a large military transport aircraft able to transport up to 291 people – which has landed in the last hour.

Other countries are using airports in Djibouti and Yemen to evacuate their citizens from Sudan and we’ve tracked Italian, Japanese and UN flights arriving and departing from these this morning.

[Stratnumberone]

Since the C130J was an essential element in recent operations maybe the MOD will reconsider their decision on early retirement?

I'm sure that those involved will once again be able to explain the critical gap that the ac fills. If, as a world power the UK needs 3 different types of Tactical Aircraft to provide the capability required, and to keep our people safe, then so be it.

Maybe AM Daltons solution was TOO simple?

MOD and Government too stupid/stubborn to either admit or realise they made a huge error. Further, it’s too late now. Once again, Sudan is proving that the C130 is an indispensable asset. However, the Operation will be no more than a final fling for the RAF C130. God help anyone that needs evacuating after this summer.

[Asturias56]

"but what has happened between the decision to keep the C130 until 2035, the decision to order additional Atlas to replace the Hercules which has been receded & now?"

Events , dear boy, events................. they can't afford to keep them

[sycamore]

Just wondering how `Ascot Ops` are working out a `plot` to airlift 4000 refugees out of Sudan...Should use a bit of `hub and spoke tactical thinking` using the minimum of 3 Hercs/6-7 crews,round trips from KTM to AbuSimbel(EGYPT),refuel for `roundtrip`each time at A-S only,pax on ,engines running,off you go,4hrs ,round trip.2 round-trips/crew,until all collected...!
Pax at A-S can be loaded onto A400 to Cyprus if not used on the KTM ..or maybe even use a `Voyager`for that...!!
Should all be done in 4 days...
Alternatively ,suggest they take all the X-Channel immigrant dinghies from Dover,drop them in KTM WITH INSTRUCTIONS to sail `downriver` as far as they can`..See you in Port Said...

[melmothtw]

"but what has happened between the decision to keep the C130 until 2035, the decision to order additional Atlas to replace the Hercules which has been receded & now?"

Events , dear boy, events................. they can't afford to keep them

What was the big event that happened that caused all of the big promises of SDSR 2015 (retaining T1 Typhoons, C-130 OSD extended, E-3 OSD extended, Sentinel OSD extended, commitment to 138 F-35s, etc) to all be reversed as unaffordable just a few short years later? Clue, it wasn't Covid, Ukraine, or the 'energy crisis'.

[ORAC]

A cynic might suggest that it’s better to use the type that you’re about to get rid of rather than risk the ones you’re keeping…

So the use of the C130J might not reflect any perceived value to the type.
The C-17 and A-400 fleets will also be occupied shuttling in ammo and other supplies to Poland and elsewhere for Ukraine, plus supporting all the tasks they’ve taken over from the C-130 fleet, so it’s plausible the availability of the aircraft was a factor in the choice.

When was the required size of the AT force last assessed?

When we ordered the A-400 the C-17 purchase wasn’t envisaged and the army and RAF were far larger than they now are - and that’s before the latest planned cuts. I have the seen the remarks about additional A-400s, is this defined in any of the latest reviews?

[andyy]

MOD and Government too stupid/stubborn to either admit or realise they made a huge error. Further, it’s too late now. Once again, Sudan is proving that the C130 is an indispensable asset. However, the Operation will be no more than a final fling for the RAF C130. God help anyone that needs evacuating after this summer.
The Govt is trying to balance the books - huge errors have been made before, hence "capability gaps" (ie gambles that they are not needed) for AWACS, MPA, Harrier and before that Sea Harrier, Type 2400 SSK submarines, Invincible Class etc etc.

The problem the C130 has is not really the A400, its the fact that we have both the A400 and the C17 when we probably only need one of them (plus the C130).

[chevvron]

The Govt is trying to balance the books - huge errors have been made before, hence "capability gaps" (ie gambles that they are not needed) for AWACS, MPA, Harrier and before that Sea Harrier, Type 2400 SSK submarines, Invincible Class etc etc.

The problem the C130 has is not really the A400, its the fact that we have both the A400 and the C17 when we probably only need one of them (plus the C130).
I know I've said it before but bring back the Andover (or something similar sized)

[andyy]

Or the BAe / Avro/ HS 146?

[SLXOwft]

. I have the seen the remarks about additional A-400s, is this defined in any of the latest reviews?

The is single reference to additional A400s on page 32 of the Defence Equipment Plan 2022 to 2035
Air will also retire the C130 Hercules to make way for the A400M Atlas force to increase its capacity and capability, operating alongside C-17 Globemaster and Voyager transport aircraft and tankers.

However, the simultaneously pubished NAO report The Equipment Plan 2022 to 2032 (HC907 29 November 2022) states under Capabilities not included in the 2022-2032 Plan - Part-funded additional purchases

An option to purchase additional A400M aircraft was assessed as unaffordable. Air Command is developing an affordable choice to improve A400M availability. Some funding is held centrally.

However:

The latest Plan is based on financial data at 31 March 2022. The Plan does not therefore reflect the current pressures and uncertainty facing the Department, most notably the Ukraine conflict and external economic environment, which will affect future spending plans.


I assume Andy Netherwood had reliable source for the potential 6 additional A400s in his oral evidence to the HoC Defence Committee on 22 March 2023

[unmanned_droid]

Photocall flight today?

My RC flying field is near Thornbury (grey blob north of Patchway, where the aircraft track intercepts the Orange road) so was pleased to be able to watch This C4 fly around for a bit this afternoon - lovely day if a bit hazy.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x837/screenshot_20230513_161000_chrome_166760da93a311a85303e174f7 7103b308179647.jpg

[Big Pistons Forever]

What is the average availability rate of the C130J vs the A400 ? As an aside the RCAF has found that the C17 has had the highest availability rate of any turbine transport aircraft in the history of the RCAF.

[esscee]

As the Threadstarter thought I might add a little. Something that many have already alluded to, is pointed out in an article in today's Daily Express, beginning to mirror other decisions made in the past. Don't seem to learn from past mistakes, especially when decisions are made to save money but then called something other, damn Treasury, "Sir Humphreys" and "kowtowing" Service bigwigs playing the "Whitehall game". Where is Leadership when so obviously needed?

[pr00ne]

[QUOTE=esscee;11435109]As the Threadstarter thought I might add a little. Something that many have already alluded to, is pointed out in an article in today's Daily Express, beginning to mirror other decisions made in the past. Don't seem to learn from past mistakes, especially when decisions are made to save money but then called something other, damn Treasury, "Sir Humphreys" and "kowtowing" Service bigwigs playing the "Whitehall game". Where is Leadership when so obviously needed?[/QUOTE


What??

.

[Asturias56]

" Where is Leadership when so obviously needed"

Long gone - it's been cut on cut since 1945

[pr00ne]

The Secretary of State for Defence has just stated, in a reply to a Labour member condemning the C-130J fleet retirement and bigging up the Atlas capability, that when the Herc is retired it will leave an Air Lift fleet that is “the biggest in 50 years!”

Surely this is wrong? 50 years ago, in 1973, the RAF had an airlift fleet of 63 Hercules, 16 Andovers, 10 Belfasts, 22 Britannias, 13 VC10’s and 5 Comets.
That’s 127 airlift aircraft, compared to a July 2023 total of 44, and that is a generous 44 as not all 14 Voyagers are in use, and they are also the RAF’s only AAR asset, compared to 30 pure AAR Victors in 1973.

Ben Wallace has just misled Parliament!

[Asturias56]

He probably means physical size of the aircraft..............

[pr00ne]

He probably means physical size of the aircraft..............

Nope, I watched him live and saw his lips move and heard exactly what he said.

[SLXOwft]

pr00ne do you really think his brain and lips were connected?
It must be capacity not quantity* ... clearly we will never need them in more than one place.

*unless he is refering to four C-130Js

Why does no MP ever ask the obvious question: 'Why does virtually every other major A400M operator also have a number of smaller aircraft'

Wallace:
The simple reality is the A400 outperforms it (the Hercules), its availability was extremely successful, the Hercules only accounts for 10% of the fleet and the overall fleet for lift is now the biggest it has been for 50 years.

Cartlidge:
“The largest number of evacuees carried out of Sudan by the Hercules was 143. The largest number in a A400 I can confirm was around 100 more than that.”

[Lucifer Morningstar]

The Secretary of State for Defence has just stated, in a reply to a Labour member condemning the C-130J fleet retirement and bigging up the Atlas capability, that when the Herc is retired it will leave an Air Lift fleet that is “the biggest in 50 years!”

Surely this is wrong? 50 years ago, in 1973, the RAF had an airlift fleet of 63 Hercules, 16 Andovers, 10 Belfasts, 22 Britannias, 13 VC10’s and 5 Comets.
That’s 127 airlift aircraft, compared to a July 2023 total of 44, and that is a generous 44 as not all 14 Voyagers are in use, and they are also the RAF’s only AAR asset, compared to 30 pure AAR Victors in 1973.

Ben Wallace has just misled Parliament!

Absolutely correct. I just watched this and Ben Wallace clearly misled Parliament as his statement is factually incorrect. Of course one must assume that as an MP and ex-army officer, his integrity is beyond question, so I look forward to him apologizing for conveying incorrect information to the house and setting the record straight without delay...:rolleyes:

[MJ89]

Special ops wise, is it not equatable in these times to have also perhaps a more expendable aircraft, god forbid a raid, thinking alike of Entebbe , Operation_Mikado..

no ok, can use a voyager. brill

[Lordflasheart]

...
Surely this is wrong? 50 years ago, in 1973, the RAF had an airlift fleet of 63 Hercules, 16 Andovers, 10 Belfasts, 22 Britannias, 13 VC10’s and 5 Comets.

Is it possible the 'onnerable Gent may have forgotten a few squadrons of Whistling T**ts ? ... soz ... I meant ... Wheelbarrows.

Ben Wallace has just misled Parliament !

That's most of his job description innit ? ... He's prolly including 67 Chinny's and a load of Marlins .
...

LFH

[pr00ne]

...


Is it possible the 'onnerable Gent may have forgotten a few squadrons of Whistling T**ts ? ... soz ... I meant ... Wheelbarrows.



That's most of his job description innit ? ... He's prolly including 67 Chinny's and a load of Marlins .
...

LFH

Nope, Argosy withdrawn as transport by 1971, save a few at Akrotiri, but Benson wing had gone by the end of 71.

[SLXOwft]

Then came Roy Mason and the end of the Andover C, Belfast, Britannia and Comet and the withdrawal of 13 Alberts. Justification was no out of NATO area ops but still more than 44 FW aircraft.

[pr00ne]

Then came Roy Mason and the end of the Andover C, Belfast, Britannia and Comet and the withdrawal of 13 Alberts. Justification was no out of NATO area ops but still more than 44 FW aircraft.

No actual Hercules or VC10’s were withdrawn. The original reduction was planned to be down to 48 Hercules and 9 VC10’s but with retention of the 10 Belfasts. That was changed to NO Belfasts but retention in frontline service of all Hercules and VC10’s.

[ICM]

Whilst it's true that, in the end, no Hercs or VC 10s were withdrawn, the AE figures for both were reduced, with all that that meant for crew numbers, spares procurement and so forth. The VC 10 went from 13 to 11 as I recall, and I simply can't remember the number for the Herc fleet at this distance. (Having been involved at Upavon in some early work for MOD on fleet sizes against given tasks, the initial announcement to retain the Belfast came as a surprise, as all the guidance then had pointed towards a Herc and VC 10 fleet on numerical grounds.)

[chevvron]

Nope, Argosy withdrawn as transport by 1971, save a few at Akrotiri, but Benson wing had gone by the end of 71.
But still flying as a flight checker until about '78..

[chopper2004]

This morning I heard it was coming into my neck of the woods (Marshalls) one final time, so tracked it on ADSB when it flew through the Mach Loop / Valleys and head this way passing over roundabout central (MK lol) and made my merry way to the airport to catch it. So here are my photos from lunchtime taken from Coldhams Lane side.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/img_0521_608b1e9aac83a2e5c46250cae82c3df827fed16b.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/img_0522_40df5d7d217d973a574e08f58be0cfc93abfd0c0.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/img_0523_5b9561aecf8591f93a52d77af842d9b3e637de7c.jpeg

cheers

[CAEBr]

Retiring RAF's Hercules will leave initial capability gap, new air chief says

Another No S**t Sherlock announcement.

​​​​​​​https://www.forces.net/technology/aircraft/raf-c-130-hercules-retirement-means-loss-capability-warns-chief-air-staff

[airsound]

pr00ne Argosy withdrawn as transport by 1971, save a few at Akrotiri, but Benson wing had gone by the end of 71]

Not according to Wiki, which says "56 aircraft were produced for the RAF under the designation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_military_aircraft_designation_systems) Argosy C Mk 1 (C.1), it served in a total of six squadrons; three based in the UK and one each in Aden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aden), Cyprus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus), and the Far East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_East). The RAF withdrew the Argosy from transport missions during 1975 as an economic measure."
If true, that confirms that the fleet of fifty years ago included the Armlong Woolworth Allsoggy, as the Lyneham comic strip would have it.

airsound

[pr00ne]

pr00ne

Not according to Wiki, which says "56 aircraft were produced for the RAF under the designation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_military_aircraft_designation_systems) Argosy C Mk 1 (C.1), it served in a total of six squadrons; three based in the UK and one each in Aden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aden), Cyprus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus), and the Far East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_East). The RAF withdrew the Argosy from transport missions during 1975 as an economic measure."
If true, that confirms that the fleet of fifty years ago included the Armlong Woolworth Allsoggy, as the Lyneham comic strip would have it.

airsound

Not true. Wiki is wrong. By 1975 the Argosy was long gone as a transport aircraft with the exception of a small flight on 70 Squadron (largely Hercules equipped) that was indeed withdrawn in 1975 when 70 returned to the UK.
The 5, not 6 Argosy transport squadrons (there were 2 in the UK, not 3) were disbanded in 1967 (215 Sqn Singapore) 1968 (105 Sqn Bahrain) 1970 (267 Sqn Benson) and 1971 (114 Sqn Benson.

[airsound]

Thanks, pr00ne, for that correction! I was a Hastings, Andover and Belfast man meself, so wasn't fully up with the Allsoggy. But anyway, as you obviously have better info than Wiki does, will you send them in a correction? If you haven't done it before, it's quite simple, and they're quite likely to accept your stuff.

airsound

[pr00ne]

Thanks, pr00ne, for that correction! I was a Hastings, Andover and Belfast man meself, so wasn't fully up with the Allsoggy. But anyway, as you obviously have better info than Wiki does, will you send them in a correction? If you haven't done it before, it's quite simple, and they're quite likely to accept your stuff.

airsound

Good idea, I will do so.

[scroggs]

Whilst it's true that, in the end, no Hercs or VC 10s were withdrawn, the AE figures for both were reduced, with all that that meant for crew numbers, spares procurement and so forth. The VC 10 went from 13 to 11 as I recall, and I simply can't remember the number for the Herc fleet at this distance. (Having been involved at Upavon in some early work for MOD on fleet sizes against given tasks, the initial announcement to retain the Belfast came as a surprise, as all the guidance then had pointed towards a Herc and VC 10 fleet on numerical grounds.)

The Herc fleet was reduced to 48 aircraft, with the rest as 'in use reserves'. Two squadrons, 48 and 36, were stood down. I think at the time of the decision 62 C Mk1s remained on the books of the 66 purchased.

[pr00ne]

The Herc fleet was reduced to 48 aircraft, with the rest as 'in use reserves'. Two squadrons, 48 and 36, were stood down. I think at the time of the decision 62 C Mk1s remained on the books of the 66 purchased.

None were actually retired with all 62 being split between A and B Line Servicing Squadrons plus the W2 of the MRF at Farnborough.
The original plan was certainly to go to 48 but also to retain 53 Squadrons Belfasts. When the decision to disband 53 and retire the Belfast was made the Hercules reduction was dropped, along with the plan to retire 3 or 4 of 10 Squadrons VC10’s.

[Consulman]

I may be mistaken but I seem to recall that 115 Sqn had a small number of Argosy' until the late 70's

[pr00ne]

I may be mistaken but I seem to recall that 115 Sqn had a small number of Argosy' until the late 70's

Not mistaken at all, they had 9 E1’s in the Airfield Calibration role until replaced by Andovers in 1977.

[chevvron]

Not mistaken at all, they had 9 E1’s in the Airfield Calibration role until replaced by Andovers in 1977.
I remember one of them in about '76 or '77 calibrating the first ever digital D/F to be installed at an MOD airfield replacing the CADF at Farnborough; they were still passing us class 'A' bearings from overhead Wyton.

[NutLoose]

So losing the Herc creates a SF capability gap and 15 nations, 11 of which being NATO countries, want to buy them.

https://www.forces.net/technology/aircraft/raf-c-130-hercules-retirement-means-loss-capability-warns-chief-air-staff

[melmothtw]

I found a lot of what was said about 'the superior capability' of the A400M at the recent Defence Select Committee hearing to be disingenuous. They kept making the point, ad nauseum, that the A400M is bigger and therefore it must be better, highlighting the operation in Sudan.

"Well, I think actually it's not a loss of capability, it's a gain of capability, because the Secretary of State very clearly believes this is a next generation aircraft ahead of the Hercules. On at that crucial operation in Sudan, the maximum number of people that was carried out by the Hercules was 143, [while] the maximum from the A400 was 251. That is incredibly important." - Minister for Defence Procurement James Cartlidge

Begs the question why we didn't buy a shed load more C-17s while the line was still open, if the number of passengers it can carry is the absolute standard by which we're measuring our air mobility capability.

[BEagle]

50 years ago, in 1973, the RAF had an airlift fleet of 63 Hercules, 16 Andovers, 10 Belfasts, 22 Britannias, 13 VC10s and 5 Comets.

Plus the Devons and a few remaining Bassets?

Only 5 years earlier, the last RAF Ansons were retired!

[chevvron]

Plus the Devons and a few remaining Bassets?

Only 5 years earlier, the last RAF Ansons were retired!
You forgot the Pembrokes; don't know when they were retired but they survived the move from Bovingdon to Northolt; I think the last Valleta had already gone by '68.

[BEagle]

The last Valetta to operate in RAF service was VX573, which made its last flight in June 1969.

Ah yes. Sorry, I forgot the Pembrokes!

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

The 2 Pembrokes at RAF Northolt (32 Sqn?) were retained - so legend had it - because AOCs could arrive for their AOCs' Inspections and deplane correctly attired with their hat on, the door being considerably higher than that of 207 Sqn's Devons.

[sycamore]

I flew as co-pilot in Valetta WJ491,AAEE Transport Flight in Nov,`71,Think it went to Gatow in `72..
Think the B170 Wayfarer/Freighter was retired in `68..

[NutLoose]

Surely this is wrong? 50 years ago, in 1973, the RAF had an airlift fleet of 63 Hercules, 16 Andovers, 10 Belfasts, 22 Britannias, 13 VC10’s and 5 Comets.
That’s 127 airlift aircraft, compared to a July 2023 total of 44, and that is a generous 44 as not all 14 Voyagers are in use, and they are also the RAF’s only AAR asset, compared to 30 pure AAR Victors in 1973.

Ben Wallace has just misled Parliament!

Is he talking pax or cargo lift capacity? If he is it might be correct.


You have missed Hastings off that list, Retired: 1977 (RAF), there was one visiting at St Athan at home in 76, Pembrokes were still in use with 60 Sqn in RAFG when I was there too.
No.60 Squadron was still operating seven in 1987 but after a total of 35 years service they were finally withdrawn in 1988.

As for the RAF website, absolutely dreadful 60 Sqn history accuracy.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/squadrons/60-squadron/

[Timelord]

Hastings were in use as NBS (V Bomber) Nav trainers long after they ceased to be part of the transport fleet, although ISTR that they could still transport the occasional sports team here and there as well as playing a starring role in the Cod War.

[chevvron]

not all 14 Voyagers are in use,
If you're going to include the Voyagers, you should also include the two Envoys and the two A321s.
Come to think of it, the Jetstream T1 was in RAF service from about 1975 to 2003; I flew in one in 1979 and it was fitted with (I think) 12 seats.

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/gabriel64869839/status/1662023725775028227?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


Regarding A400M ability to airdrop boats, which has come to be totemic in ability to support "special forces" (i'm probably more concerned about the Submarine Parachute Assistance Group...), process to procure an initial 25 Large Boat Air Drop platforms began last year.…

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1662023725775028227.html
​​​​​​​

[NutLoose]

Wrong thread Orac??

[Commando Cody]

Maybe someone can advise me about this. The RAF's existing 22 A400Ms are to fill an existing need, but were not specifically to replace the RAF's C-130J fleet. The intention was to order an addition quantity to replace the C-130Js which were to be retired. The retirement was moved up and some quarters said the new schedule was premature. Now, with the various Defense reviews, although the additional AA400Ms were planned to be ordered, they never actually were and now in fact will not be, and it is too late to stop the retirement of the C-130Js, which 15 nations would like to buy. Is this accurate?

Fun fact: one of the ex-RAF C-130Js now flies with the Blue Angels.

[Asturias56]

yes - that's where we are .

All the intentions, plans, aspirations, desires etc etc have hit the hard rock that there isn't enough cash

Just look at UK F-35 purchases for another wonderful illustration of how economic reality imposes itself on MoD plans

This will continue until we either decide to tax people a lot more to pay for what we want OR

we decide on what we can afford and then cut our "needs" accordingly

[pr00ne]

yes - that's where we are .

All the intentions, plans, aspirations, desires etc etc have hit the hard rock that there isn't enough cash

Just look at UK F-35 purchases for another wonderful illustration of how economic reality imposes itself on MoD plans

This will continue until we either decide to tax people a lot more to pay for what we want OR

we decide on what we can afford and then cut our "needs" accordingly

OR, we spend our huge defence budget wisely so that it actually delivers, as does the much smaller defence budgets of many nations that achieve a far higher “bang for the buck” and manage to achieve much better value for money than MoD, the most prolific wasters of public money in the known universe!

[mmitch]

In today's Daily Mail, the MoD Civil staff is now 60,640 an increase of 3000 in 4 years. It is now close to the combined strength of the Royal Navy, the Marines and the RAF! So each serving service person will soon have a 'personal civil servant.':hmm:
mmitch.

[Beatts]

I'm sure we can all agree on how dross the final special paint scheme is unveiled yesterday. One of the most important aircraft to operate over the years and all we get is a sticker!!

[Asturias56]

Every penny counts!

[pgaruk]

Does anyone have info on the ACN tables for the A400 please.

[pax britanica]

Like no doubt everyone else her I am a 'taxpayer' . Itseems to me we have never really defiend what our military are for, clealry defence of the realm is up there but what does thata ctually ean. An earleir poster made the point that alone we justare not very important any more. As a majr memebr of NATO , and the EU we were a very significant global player. Our history has given us a legacy of dedicated competent military personnel but we dont have the money to effectively equip them or even maintain their homes.

The usual panic cut taxes pre election measure (which only benefits rich people anyway) puts even more pressure on Government to reduce military expenditure at a time when perhaps we should be gently increasing it .A Catch 22 situation which leads to bad decsions all around and so the spiral continues.

[Asturias56]

The good people and politicians of the UK want a low tax US style economy but a Scandinavian level of Govt support - just look a t the screaming over the possible abolition of the Triple Lock on pensions.

I would remind you that as late as the the 70's, when we had a reasonably large set of armed services, Supertax could run to 98% on parts of your income and you had to fill in a form to get a paltry few quid to go on holiday overseas. Times have changed - but not all the changes have been for the best.

You get what you pay for

[SLXOwft]

Yes and VAT was 8% then 12.5% we have shifted the burden to regressive indirect taxes and NI which affects employers and the less well paid more heavily. 98% was investment income only.

We tend to look at these things in isolation, the tax burden has grown across 'advance economies'. In 2021 the UK Tax burden as a %age of GDP was 23rd of the 34 'advanced economies'. IMO if the UK we were capable of grown up thinking we would raise the tax burden - ours is 5%+ less that the EU 14 average. Then we might be able to afford a sensible increase in defence spending.

The big burdens are the NHS, Welfare and Pensions. The NHS and Social Care are desperately in need of reform but our politcos think they are better off using them as political footballs than seeking the consensus required.

The sole duties of government - internal and external security account for less than 10% of spending.

Tax summary description Description of PESA source
Public Sector Expenditure 2021-2022
Health 22.8%
Welfare ‘Social Protection’ excluding state pensions 20.4%
State Pensions Within ‘Social Protection’ 11.0%
Education 10.5%
National Debt Interest Within General Public Services 7.6%
Business & Industry Economic Affairs, without Transport 5.4%
Defence 5.1%
Transport Economic Affairs, without Business and Industry 4.7%
Public Order & Safety Public Order & Safety 4.4%
Government Administration Captured under General Public Services 2.3%
Housing and utilities (e.g. street lights) Housing & Community Amenities 15.3 1.6%
Environment protection 1.5%
Culture (e.g. sports, libraries, museums) Recreation, Culture & Religion 1.3%
Outstanding payments to the EU includes the European Union Financial Settlement payments 0.7%
Overseas Aid Captured under General Public Services 0.6%

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/744x415/tax_burden_2c080bab9bbdd98f293fd035b7bf43bff4c0987b.jpg

[A4scooter]

I found a lot of what was said about 'the superior capability' of the A400M at the recent Defence Select Committee hearing to be disingenuous. They kept making the point, ad nauseum, that the A400M is bigger and therefore it must be better, highlighting the operation in Sudan.

"Well, I think actually it's not a loss of capability, it's a gain of capability, because the Secretary of State very clearly believes this is a next generation aircraft ahead of the Hercules. On at that crucial operation in Sudan, the maximum number of people that was carried out by the Hercules was 143, [while] the maximum from the A400 was 251. That is incredibly important." - Minister for Defence Procurement James Cartlidge

Begs the question why we didn't buy a shed load more C-17s while the line was still open, if the number of passengers it can carry is the absolute standard by which we're measuring our air mobility capability.

If the A400 is so brilliant why have the French & Germans ordered Hercules?
Apart from Belgium & now the UK every A400 operates a smaller type (C130/C295/C235) to supplement the larger aircraft.
It doesn’t matter how big / good an aircraft is it can’t be in 2 x places at once.

[chevvron]

Is it still 30 Jun for the final retirement?

[Scamp]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/a-flypast-to-mark-the-forthcoming-retirement-of-the-hercules-from-raf-service/

[NRU74]

Re the Flypast route, anyone know where Wooten Basset is ?

[airsound]

anyone know where Wooten Basset is ? Well, if I remember correctly, in the excellent monthly(?) Lyneham comic strip, the station itself was known as RAF Wootton Lynestoke

airsound

[Herod]

If that's a genuine question "Royal" Wootton Bassett is midway between Lyneham and Swindon.

[chevvron]

Re the Flypast route, anyone know where Wooten Basset is ?
You must have a very short memory.
ROYAL Wootton Bassett is located just north of Lyneham and was on the route from Lyneham to the M4 where many of the returning military personnel were taken after landing. The local people of Wootton Bassett took it on themselves to honour the returnees by route lining thus earning them the 'Royal' title.

[NRU74]

Herod,
Sorry,
They've pulled the Flypast route map where they'd screwed up the spelling of Royal W B
NRU

[chevvron]

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/a-flypast-to-mark-the-forthcoming-retirement-of-the-hercules-from-raf-service/
The actual date of C130J retirement is supposed to be 31 Jun 2023 so presumably that will be marked in some way in addition to the flypast route on 14 Jun and the 'Kings Birthday' flypast on 17 Jun.

[SLXOwft]

I see they haven't taken up my suggestion of Changi:). I was genuinely hoping Baker Barracks (i.e. Thorney Island) would be included in the flypasts then I would have had a chance to see it.

The last operational Hercules flight took place at 1000 on 4 June 23, when 47 Squadron flew from RAF Akrotiri to RAF Brize Norton.
Deputy Commander Operations Air Marshal Harvey Smyth gave a speech at the parade praising the proud history of the aircraft before boarding, along with the current members of 47 Sqn, for the return flight.
(No indication of which 1000 :ugh:)

I won't link to the article as it is ruined by A400 propaganda.

I still can't believe the Workules is going. Many thanks to all who served in them or serviced them (in any way).

Some time ago (2014ish) a scamp managed to get a mention of RAF Rompers Green in an RAF related wikipedia article; the wiki fun police presumably found it and removed as it is no longer there. Nor it appears sadly is the www.rompersgreen.com website.

[Scamp]

The actual date of C130J retirement is supposed to be 31 Jun 2023 so presumably that will be marked in some way in addition to the flypast route on 14 Jun and the 'Kings Birthday' flypast on 17 Jun.

UK tour, Kings Birthday flypast, backdrop for hgr bash ......... ferry to Cambridge, stand down duty done.

[topgas]

The actual date of C130J retirement is supposed to be 31 Jun 2023

That's a date you don't often see

[Lyneham Lad]

The actual date of C130J retirement is supposed to be 31 Jun 2023 so presumably that will be marked in some way in addition to the flypast route on 14 Jun and the 'Kings Birthday' flypast on 17 Jun.

31st June??? Which calendar? Julian?

[chevvron]

31st June??? Which calendar? Julian?
I did say 'supposed to be' after all; it was posted in an earlier post on this thread and I just copied it!!
(Well that's my excuse anyway believe it or not):{

[Guido]

Will the final flights be crewed bt Sqn aircrew or Sqn/Stn execs"?

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/royalairforce/status/1667094195763281922?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


Eyes to the sky on Wed 14 June, as a formation of Hercules aircraft fly around the UK as a farewell salute ahead of retirement at the end of the month and transition to Atlas. The crews look forward to seeing you on the way, routing and timings here 👉

​​​​​​​https://ow.ly/xHGW50OJPSg

[dctyke]

If someone in the know could pop a flight path on here it would be useful, hoping to catch it between Leeming and Leconfield.

[Tommy Tipee]

A pity the route doesn’t include Thorney Island, original home of the OCU, to give we southerners a a farewell sighting.
Truly the end of a remarkable era.
.

[DaveReidUK]

The map's back on the website (https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/a-flypast-to-mark-the-forthcoming-retirement-of-the-hercules-from-raf-service/), still showing "Royal Wooten Basset"

[SLXOwft]

A pity the route doesn’t include Thorney Island, original home of the OCU, to give we southerners a a farewell sighting.
Truly the end of a remarkable era.
.

If the route is anything like accurate they could be overflying Baker Barracks/Thorney Island after all.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/633x624/c130flightplanish_1d25088f2fa3defa140a86ac28d0419ca32d4d8d.j pg

[Herod]

Thorney Island; one of the best ground-tours you could get. Two-and-a-half years as an Ops Controller, then the OCU, before departing for Lyneham.

I'll be at Cosford, quietly weeping.

[son of brommers]

As with other types that have gone on to continue life in an "historic flight" or similar setting, is there a plan to preserve any Hercs in a flying state in the UK?

[chevvron]

As with other types that have gone on to continue life in an "historic flight" or similar setting, is there a plan to preserve any Hercs in a flying state in the UK?
Don't be silly, there's plenty of 'life' left in them so they're all going to be sold on to other airforces.

[Video Mixdown]

A pity the route doesn’t include Thorney Island, original home of the OCU, to give we southerners a a farewell sighting.
Truly the end of a remarkable era.
The map does show the route looping round the Thorney Island area. No indication whether it's accurate or just a graphic illustration.

[SLXOwft]

Three ship formation over south Lincs at present - formation practice? Alt 300 ft ! according to ADS-B Exchange. Including '870 which was initially thought beyong economic repair on return to the UK c.2020.

[Davef68]

If the route south from Lossie is accurate I might just see them!

[Scamp]

Quite something to see them over Scamp mansions in Wiltshire today returning as a fairly tight 3 ship at 1100 ft, catch em while you can folks.

[sfm818]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1458x837/f0205060_5bfaa6985f3d8_2__7c15809ee029ba9e00da285bdaa2ef1c6a 6666bd.jpg

[skua]

Crying shame they are not passing STANTA or Sculthorpe, whih have been regualr haunts. So not probably won't trek across the region to say goodbye.

What a monumentally stupid decision to disband our Herc Force. Reminded of that every time I see a US SF 130J cruise past.

[airsound]

Speaking as an ancient trucky (Transport Command, originally….), I’ve been incandescent about the binning of the Herc. So I’ve been putting together a Letter to the Times, to be signed by a few aviation luminaries. And, believe it or not, t’Times says it’s going to be in on Wednesday 14 - to coincide with the big flypast. Signatories include a couple of former CASs and a former Defence Minister.

I’m aware that nothing will change - but I felt that something needed to be said in the columns of the Thunderer.

Of course, with all the extraordinary news that’s around just now, it might not appear. But I’m hopeful.

airsound

[chevvron]

Speaking as an ancient trucky (Transport Command, originally….), I’ve been incandescent about the binning of the Herc. So I’ve been putting together a Letter to the Times, to be signed by a few aviation luminaries. And, believe it or not, t’Times says it’s going to be in on Wednesday 14 - to coincide with the big flypast. Signatories include a couple of former CASs and a former Defence Minister.

I’m aware that nothing will change - but I felt that something needed to be said in the columns of the Thunderer.

Of course, with all the extraordinary news that’s around just now, it might not appear. But I’m hopeful.

airsound
'The Times' has the same owners as 'The Sun' which excels in 'sensationalising' stories so maybe you should send it to them too. As you say, 'The Times' will probably 'bin' it in favour of some MP fiddling their expenses.

[ACW342]

The first air clues I read when I first joined the RAF had a headline which read “Bye Bye Bev”, the following issue read “Hello Herc” I Don't know if a similar headline " Bye Bye Herc" will appear there.
And now, of course, the RAF WILL have a shortfall in tactical transport. At least a bit more parking space at Prize Boredom when we ask our NATO colleagues to do a bit of transporting for us, especially for the nice people up Hereford way looking for a lift, You know, a bit like when we were asking those nice NATO people if they wouldn't mind searching for unwanted submarines in our waters and could the nice people at Geilenkirkhen keep an eye out for unwanted wild life like Bears approaching our airspace 'cos, sorry, we didn't have the kit ourselves.

A342

[nipva]

It would be fitting if ZH865 was to be part of the formation being the first on charge. Photo of it's arrival at BDN in September 1998 very nearly 25 years ago.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/784x519/c130j_2__63beca31b8b88ef93dc863a1e03af820fe3bfc5c.jpg

[teeonefixer]

Sorry to say this nipva, but ZH865 was put into store at Cambridge in May.

As for the status of the rest of the fleet, see the UKserials website:
UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/)

[chevvron]

As for the status of the rest of the fleet, see the UKserials website:
UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/)
So what happens when they use up the last of the 'ZZ's? Do they start using the myriads of 'never issued' serial numbers or maybe start again using 'AA' and 4 numbers?

[teeonefixer]

The rate they are buying new airframes, it'll take a long while to fill in the rest of the ZM-ZZ allocations !

[DODGYOLDFART]

Sad that they are missing out West Wales as so much low flying was done here. When I say low I mean low, there had been many occasions when I thought my chimney pot was definitely a goner and often at night!

For some reason the new kit seems to stay a lot higher these days. We will certainly miss dear old Uncle Albert!

[dixi188]

Re. the routimg, I see it's 1hr. 7 mins. from Colchester to Boscombe Down, so there must be a bit more than just flying over Thorney Island on the way.

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/haynesdeborah/status/1668867803330355200?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A


NEW: Two former @RoyalAirForce chiefs & other top commanders condemn “perverse” “extraordinary” cost-cutting decision to ditch UK fleet of C-130 aircraft - vital for flying troops, evacuating civilians & supporting special forces operations. Here is their letter in @thetimes


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1242x1550/image_b9d12313cfaedc64561f7d6df15d96e85b7a20b5.png

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1242x954/image_1714b7a0461060884c548a43198b1104ca8e040d.png
​​​​​​​

[Davef68]

So what happens when they use up the last of the 'ZZ's? Do they start using the myriads of 'never issued' serial numbers or maybe start again using 'AA' and 4 numbers?

Plenty of numbers left - they started allocating 'custom' numbers in the early 2000s and it's become a bit messy. - they were on ZK when they started ZZ, originally leased or UOR aircraft, then someone put the Wildcats in there. Now, rather than a straight linear progression, tail numbers are sometimes selected to suit the aircraft/fleet.

[sfm818]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x790/image_892a4b4116344c1af172b6fbd99966be1562f161.jpg

Austria are in the market to replace their K's. The unnecessary release from service of an entire J series fleet is fortunate timing from their point of view and a good option to inherit more kit from the Royal Air Force.