RAF announces Puma Replacement plan

[[email protected]]

As idyllic as the buy the US OTS option sounds, the practicalities of politics get in the way. Remember our AH 1Ds had different engines (to keep UK suppliers and voters happy) but with the RTMs came a change in fuselage dynamics when the cannon was fired and Boeing wanted even more money to re-jig the fire computer algorithm so the cannon got more accurate instead of less as rounds were fired.

Then you had the fiasco of the AAC being forced to sign off delivery at Middle Wallop for a number of Apaches that were flown there, had the MFDs removed (because there was a shortage) and then driven back to Yeovil to be installed in the next one. Now, such shenanigans could also be experienced dealing with a UK or EU supplier but you can be pretty certain that the required UK spec for UH60 would be different from US spec and extra costs would be involved in modifying it.

Not sure what the perceived problem with Puma 2 is, most of the Puma 1 s foibles have been removed and although not a specialist in any particular area, manages a reasonable fist of most jobs it is asked to do.

[SASless]

All legacy airframes were once unproven, unbuilt and untested designs, so not sure your logic really holds up.

Study up on the original UTTAS program and you might think a bit differently.

Ask John Dixson who frequently posts here about his personal experience as a Test Pilot for Sikorsky during that procurement program that resulted in the the UH-60 Black Hawk winning the competition.

The key is how it is "spec'd", "tested", and "certified".

The US Army did it right on the UTTAS Program and learned from that.

[ericferret]

As idyllic as the buy the US OTS option sounds, the practicalities of politics get in the way. Remember our AH 1Ds had different engines (to keep UK suppliers and voters happy) but with the RTMs came a change in fuselage dynamics when the cannon was fired and Boeing wanted even more money to re-jig the fire computer algorithm so the cannon got more accurate instead of less as rounds were fired.

Then you had the fiasco of the AAC being forced to sign off delivery at Middle Wallop for a number of Apaches that were flown there, had the MFDs removed (because there was a shortage) and then driven back to Yeovil to be installed in the next one. Now, such shenanigans could also be experienced dealing with a UK or EU supplier but you can be pretty certain that the required UK spec for UH60 would be different from US spec and extra costs would be involved in modifying it.

Not sure what the perceived problem with Puma 2 is, most of the Puma 1 s foibles have been removed and although not a specialist in any particular area, manages a reasonable fist of most jobs it is asked to do.

I doubt Leonardo will want to build a Puma under licence from a competitor.
Really the Puma and the Black Hawk will have similar issue if the clowns at the M.O.D are allowed to interfere.
You would have thought we had learned a few very expensive lessons by now.
Political interference is the biggest problem.

[Mee3]

when talking about logical choice, puma's replacement is the super puma.

[212man]

when talking about logical choice, puma's replacement is the super puma.
the Dutch agree - 225Ms replacing their Cougars

[Hot_LZ]

The Dutch are going down that route because a % of their military aircraft need to be European. If they’d gone for non European their ratio was compromised.

LZ

[212man]

The Dutch are going down that route because a % of their military aircraft need to be European. If they’d gone for non European their ratio was compromised.

LZ
I guess the F35s, F16s, C130s, CH47s and AH64s have skewed that percentage!

[SASless]

Going the 225M route would fall under the concept of "logic" .....now there is a concept designed built for debate!

[Hot_LZ]

I guess the F35s, F16s, C130s, CH47s and AH64s have skewed that percentage!

You can’t argue that those types serve their purpose and pretty well. Speaking to the guys in NL I think they’d also prefer Seahawk/Blackhawk but it just won’t happen for the above. They didn’t want NH90 by all account…

LZ

[Blackhawk9]

I guess the F35s, F16s, C130s, CH47s and AH64s have skewed that percentage!
Worked with Dutch Cougars years ago ,they said they wanted Black Hawk but as they had Apache (28) for Gunship and Chinook (20) for heavy lift had to have a European build Machine , went with the Cougar (12) as it was the smallest number of the Helo fleet and there for the smallest cost.

[Blackhawk9]

Going the 225M route would fall under the concept of "logic" .....now there is a concept designed built for debate!
Yep and they could have got as many ex offshore 225's as they wanted for a song and had them brought up to the mil spec they want for a fraction of this new contract.

[SASless]

.....and still have something not fit for task as the Spec was not for a combat aircraft and that small bother of spontaneeously departing rotor heads.

[JohnDixson]

SAS, as it has been the subject of comment in the FARA thread, the Army may not now have access to the technical expertise then residing in the Army Aviation Systems Command, and specifically the Flight Standards Division under the late Charles Crawford and his very technically astute staff.
I did send a query to the DTIC organization, asking if they had a copy of the UTTAS Material Need Document and the UTTAS Request for Proposal. Received a positive response that they would do a search. If found, I’ll try and make it available so that readers can appreciate the depth of expert study that went into defining UTTAS requirements. It certainly paid off in creating two very good competing aircraft for the fly-off. Even the fly-off was conducted in detail*: one ship from each company went to Edwards AFB for the technical performance and handling qualities assessment and the other two from each company went thru a service test at Ft Rucker and then a multi month field evaluation at Ft Campbell, with 10 Army Pilots flying two from Boeing and another 10 flying two from Sikorsky. ( BTW, those 20 pilots in turn were selected to reflect the Army pilot cadre: some were older/experienced, some were younger/little experience ).
* each aircraft had a complete flight envelope and had completed the defending structural demonstration requirements as specified in AMCP 706-203, and they were issued to the Army evaluation group with a spec compliance Army Operators Manual**. Maintenance during the field testing at Ft Campbell was performed to the required Army Maintenance Manuals. The Army maintenance personnel were trained by the contractor and that included Maintenance Officer and Maintenance Test Pilots for each. Required maintenance activity was tracked as part of the competition.
** It had a few charts that were by request of Army Flight Standards. One was bank angle limits vs airspeed: it featured a 90 degree bank angle limit of 90 degrees between 42 KIAS and 137KIAS, for both Design Gross Weight ( 16,700 at the time, and Alternate Gross Weight ( 19,930 at the time ). The Army pilots were trained via a 10 hour syllabus ( Army request as I recall ). Syllabus had one flight empty, and all others at Deign or Alternate G.W. It included the entire flight envelope and also all of the SAS/AFCS/Stabilator failure modes. We installed the “ Hardover Box “ which we had used in testing all the failure mods during development, and used that in the training syllabus. ( tried to get the Army to buy a few for the Ft. Rucker Flight School use, but they reneged saying they would use the simulator-missed an opportunity there )

[chopper2004]

Going the 225M route would fall under the concept of "logic" .....now there is a concept designed built for debate!

With regard to the ongoing conflict against the bad guys, does anyone remember the James Follett high tech thriller Dominator, written in the late 80s? Its about PLO given free reign by the Russians to launch air strikes against Israel and the POTUS is refusing or being reticent in helping out Israel with supplying of war material. So in response, a Mossad agent, teams up with scientists, a dodgy South African criminal organisation and kinda cons a UK based satellite company to build a satellite (which is subsituted for an Israeli space based weapons system) onto the shuttle and our hero who is a washed up astronaut.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/619x1000/dominator_james_follett_6de037ae0fe2bd9ebb3ba2d1a862f12c8740 faf2.jpg
In the chapter when the shuttle is held hostage and the israelis make their demand for US support, otherwise its launch the weapons, in the uK the SAS team storms the UK satellite facility ...and guess this deplaning from a 'Cougar' helicopter.

Nice bit of fiction,

Back to reality Go back a few years to 1980/81, Air Staff Target 304, then we looked at acquiring the Aerospatiale AS332M Super Puma...(according to RAF Yearbook magazine)

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/air_staff_target_304_as332_1ee96e45f27f359184cc7eb8b39ac6c86 cdfccc6.jpg

cheers

[CopterDoctor]

I agree, and ask again why the 215/ 225 / 725 isnt an option.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I agree, and ask again why the 215/ 225 / 725 isnt an option.
Because Airbus didn't offer it - either through choice or because it doesn't meet the requirements.

[NutLoose]

Because Airbus didn't offer it - either through choice or because it doesn't meet the requirements.

Or they count them as legacy aircraft and do not want to have to offer support for them for the next 50 Years

[FloaterNorthWest]

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/uk-mod-to-buy-six-h145s-in-fresh-blow-to-nmh-plans/155777.article

[JulieAndrews]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/259x194/withered_vine_e093c1d035bdeb5f37974320ba9f91e40e7784fa.jpeg
That's all folks !!

[Lucifer Morningstar]

I cannot speak to the 212 replacement for Brunei, but the 145 is definitely suited to replace the 412 in Cyprus. I double-toured on 84 (Wessex and 412) https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif and I know the role as well as anyone. Neither the Wessex nor the 412 were Safe Single Engine on the vast majority of occasions, so the 145 is no different at all. We just made sure our pilots were initimately familiar with SSE, Flyway and Committed calls and procedures which was admittedly easier with ex RAF SAR guys to be sure - the current RAF pilots out-of-training are a shadow of their predeccessors sadly in terms of judgement and decision making, although that is a result of the MFTS system, not their fault. The 145 is clearly not as large as a Puma, but it is large enough for the role. It has around double the endurance of the Puma and a fraction of the operating costs. All new UK helicopter pilots are now trained on the H135 and it is a simple conversion (I did it in 1 sortie) to qualify on the H145, so similar are the checks and controls (although not identical).
I see this as a very positive move. The Blackhawk is surely the best bet for NMH, but it would be overkill for Cyprus. This means a cheap, reliable platform can fill the 84 Sqn role, and fewer of the far more expensive S70i are required for NMH as Cyprus and Brunei requirements will be removed from the mix, making Blackhawk a more viable option in the UKP 1.2 Billion NMH budget.
For once, a sensible decision from the MoD procurement dudes. This makes NMH more likely to happen. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_clap.gif

[[email protected]]

I remember the Wessex performance very differently, pulling more than 2700 Tq in the hover at SL was unusual unless you had a lot of fuel on board so you were SSE more often than not.

I think the problem with the 145 has been lateral C of G and a relatively small door for winching. It needs to be able to fit two stretchered casualties which the 412 couldn't do and I'm not sure the 145 can either.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

I remember the Wessex performance very differently, pulling more than 2700 Tq in the hover at SL was unusual unless you had a lot of fuel on board so you were SSE more often than not.

I think the problem with the 145 has been lateral C of G and a relatively small door for winching. It needs to be able to fit two stretchered casualties which the 412 couldn't do and I'm not sure the 145 can either.

Crab, valid points all, but on a standard Akrotiri afternoon, +37c and barely a breeze, in full SAR role, we were very often committed. As soon as we went inland and stuck anywhere up to 8000ft DA into the mix, we were hovering at ‘3.2 alpha’. Our engineers would allow us 3.5 on the quiet if we didn’t do it for long 😉

[sycamore]

LM, and of course ,you understood that the ` engineers` were not authorised to allow you,either....

[Lucifer Morningstar]

LM, and of course ,you understood that the ` engineers` were not authorised to allow you,either....

Oh indeed we did😉! This was back in the day when people truly understood what the aircraft could do, and our engineers were not mere ‘box swappers’ - we had an utterly superb engineering team on 84, many ex NI 72Sqn, and they knew the aircraft inside-out. I would tell them what I thought I needed to get the job done, and they would ‘advise’ me. Were we exceeding aircraft published limits?, Oh you betcha, but in those days people with knowledge and experience made educated decisions to get the job done. I always ensured the entire crew was briefed and approved the plan, my rule was ‘one out, all out’.

The person breaking the rules and exceeding published limits was me. I signed for the aircraft and I held the responsibility as the Captain - but it worked every single time, and we never had an issue.I will stress that this was NEVER done for training, purely to get a life-saving Op accomplished.

In the military, on Ops we were paid to use our knowledge and judgment to get the task achieved. We did exactly that. When the system changed to rule driven automatons ruling the roost, I PVR’d. I decided that if I had to mindlessly follow rules and could not apply professional judgement to get the job done then I would do it in civvy street where I I could do that for 5 times the salary (I moved to North America)

Am I a dinosaur? Probably, and to many this may sound reckless - I get it. But we were complete professionals who truly understood our aircraft and knew what we could ask of it, in extremis, to save lives. I do not apologize for that.

[[email protected]]

I was flying the only remaining airworthy Wessex last week and we were having a discussion about Tq limits - I remember being told by the old and bold in the 80s that Bristow used to operate it to 3.8 on a regular basis.

However, life saving ops are few and far between in Cyprus, especially inland at 8000' DA (most likely firebucketing) so using 3.2A was never a 'thing' we did - its why there was a fuel jettison system on the aircraft so you could match your weight to the situation.

Did I sit committed often? Not for training but a couple of interesting night cliff jobs required it (although I still had a tricky- no NVG in those days - flyaway option).

But deliberately overtorquing the aircraft? - no. I've seen 3.8 a couple of times in NI due to inexperience (both on my part and others) but only transients.

I concur with your sentiments re automatons blindly rule following but professionalism demands that only in absolute extremis should you put the crew at increased risk by exceeding limits on the aircraft. And it should be put U/S as soon as the rescue is complete, not waived by overkeen engineers.

[EESDL]

All legacy airframes were once unproven, unbuilt and untested designs, so not sure your logic really holds up.
Maybe it’s the future unknown variables of the ‘time’ and ‘expense’ required to bring into service for a ‘broke’ Nation?

[PlasticCabDriver]

Oh indeed we did😉! This was back in the day when people truly understood what the aircraft could do, and our engineers were not mere ‘box swappers’ - we had an utterly superb engineering team on 84, many ex NI 72Sqn, and they knew the aircraft inside-out. I would tell them what I thought I needed to get the job done, and they would ‘advise’ me. Were we exceeding aircraft published limits?, Oh you betcha, but in those days people with knowledge and experience made educated decisions to get the job done. I always ensured the entire crew was briefed and approved the plan, my rule was ‘one out, all out’.

The person breaking the rules and exceeding published limits was me. I signed for the aircraft and I held the responsibility as the Captain - but it worked every single time, and we never had an issue.I will stress that this was NEVER done for training, purely to get a life-saving Op accomplished.

In the military, on Ops we were paid to use our knowledge and judgment to get the task achieved. We did exactly that. When the system changed to rule driven automatons ruling the roost, I PVR’d. I decided that if I had to mindlessly follow rules and could not apply professional judgement to get the job done then I would do it in civvy street where I I could do that for 5 times the salary (I moved to North America)

Am I a dinosaur? Probably, and to many this may sound reckless - I get it. But we were complete professionals who truly understood our aircraft and knew what we could ask of it, in extremis, to save lives. I do not apologize for that.

And I certainly don’t remember the LHS leaning over and pressing the torquemeter test button: “3000, 3000, 3000, all is good…..” flying away, releases test button “3100, 3000, all coming down nicely…”.

[212man]

LM, and of course ,you understood that the ` engineers` were not authorised to allow you,either....
My hope is that the maintenance manuals had different limits to the Pilots' Notes, and they knew that no maintenance checks or actions were necessary. I've certainly see that with other types.

[JulieAndrews]

The Malaysian 60A+ ‘out flies’ and ‘out lifts’ anything the U.K. is considering - and all for $2M each per year ;-)
https://www.janes.com/amp/lima-2023-malaysia-to-lease-four-black-hawks/ZnlJK3dHVU9mZ28xajRJVkc5dVI5VFp1cVMwPQ2

[JulieAndrews]

https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/033385-2023#award_contract-1

6 x 145 at over £23M each with only 3-years support - incredible use of tax payers money

[212man]

https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/033385-2023#award_contract-1

6 x 145 at over £23M each with only 3-years support - incredible use of tax payers money

The 140 million is excluding VAT!

[casper64]

https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/033385-2023#award_contract-1

6 x 145 at over £23M each with only 3-years support - incredible use of tax payers money

Its the Brexit tax! 😉

[casper64]

Oh indeed we did😉!

Am I a dinosaur? Probably, and to many this may sound reckless - I get it. But we were complete professionals who truly understood our aircraft and knew what we could ask of it, in extremis, to save lives. I do not apologize for that.

Yes, I think that is reckless. You can fully understand your aircraft, but are you at the same time a load/stress/fatigue engineer? Did the manufacturer provide you with all the data to “know what you could ask of it”? Or were you just lucky you worked in a time where aircraft and their components by chance were over dimensioned? (Take a BO105 head that went from 1600kg initial design to 3700kg on a H145). If you would do the same with ANY modern aircraft, civil or military, the guy taking the aircraft after you might get killed. Lucky enough for this event exceedance monitoring has been introduced to warn the crew coming after “you”…

[212man]

Its the Brexit tax! 😉
True. According the big red bus that was paraded around, it’s less than half a week of Brexit savings!

[minigundiplomat]

Its the Brexit tax! 😉


Only if we feel obliged to keep buying crap from the eurotrash.

[Hilife]

Don’t you see. It’s part of the ongoing sweetener, for not being selected as 'The Preferred Bidder’ for NMH. ;)

[JulieAndrews]

any idea on historical utilisation in Brunei and Akro? would it be more than 300-hrs /annum/airframe, for example?

[212man]

any idea on historical utilisation in Brunei and Akro? would it be more than 300-hrs /annum/airframe, for example?
must be in Brunei. They were always flying when I was there (2005-13)

[NutLoose]

You would have thought If they were going to buy anything for Cyprus or Brunei, the obvious choice would have been one that was shortlisted for the replacement programme so they would get operational experience and be able to field test the type. And if it eventually was chosen you would have commonality.

[chevvron]

You would have thought If they were going to buy anything for Cyprus or Brunei, the obvious choice would have been one that was shortlisted for the replacement programme so they would get operational experience and be able to field test the type. And if it eventually was chosen you would have commonality.
Don't be silly, that's far too logical.

[NutLoose]

The other factor that may have come into play is if you approached the said company and said “ look your helicopter is on our shortlist for say 30 examples and we require 4 in the short term to cover Cyprus and Brunei, what is your best offer”
and bearing in mind they would then be looking at the overall contract and possibly get a foot in the door, you would imagine they would possibly get a cracking deal on a use and return if not selected. I would imagine they would possibly have been able to furnish used or demonstrators.

[Blackhawk9]

There was nothing wrong with the 412's they were EP's if they wanted to upgrade could have had them brought up to EPX spec for a fraction of new machines (like Canada is doing and other 412 operators are looking at), still better hot/high than a 145.

[JulieAndrews]

The other factor that may have come into play is if you approached the said company and said “ look your helicopter is on our shortlist for say 30 examples and we require 4 in the short term to cover Cyprus and Brunei, what is your best offer”
and bearing in mind they would then be looking at the overall contract and possibly get a foot in the door, you would imagine they would possibly get a cracking deal on a use and return if not selected. I would imagine they would possibly have been able to furnish used or demonstrators.

If that is their ‘best offer’ then heaven help the Tax payer!
You raise a very serious point and one I’m not convinced MOD/DSE can navigate ethically.

[Franks Town]

MOD/DSE might have had a look at a civvy solution for both. Cyprus and Brunei both got a mention at Heli Investor by Bristows Russ Torbet as possible opportunity.
What sort of service and with what platform would you get for 140m StG ?

https://www.helicopterinvestor.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/15.05-The-future-of-SAR.pdf

[trim it out]

MOD/DSE might have had a look at a civvy solution for both. Cyprus and Brunei both got a mention at Heli Investor by Bristows Russ Torbet as possible opportunity.
What sort of service and with what platform would you get for 140m StG ?

https://www.helicopterinvestor.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/15.05-The-future-of-SAR.pdf
The Brunei gig isn't SAR though, it's moving people and stuff around with a dash of medevac. Not an impossibility for it to go to a civvy contract though, as per BATUS, BATUK and BATSUB.

[[email protected]]

There is very little SAR requirement in Cyprus either.

Bristow are doing well getting many SAR contracts but are still without a training school to create the crews (especially rearcrew) to fill all those contracts.

[casper64]

There was nothing wrong with the 412's they were EP's if they wanted to upgrade could have had them brought up to EPX spec for a fraction of new machines (like Canada is doing and other 412 operators are looking at), still better hot/high than a 145.
Are you sure about Hot&High? From what I’ve heard a 169 and 145 (D-2 and D-3) are superior to all others in the medium segment with regard to H&H. The 145 D-3 even landed somewhere around 23000ft…

[Phoinix]

HOGE MTOM @ ISA
H145D3: 8.955 ft (3.800 kg)
AW169EP: 11.500 ft (4.800 kg)
B412EPX: 8.200 ft (5.530 kg)

HOGE MTOM-100 kg @ ISA
H145D3: 10.815 ft (3.700 kg)
AW169EP: 12.000 ft (4.700 kg)
B412EPX: 9.000 ft (5.400 kg)

HOGE MTOM-100 kg @ ISA+20
H145D3: 8.570 ft (3.700 kg)
AW169EP: 8.400 ft (4.700 kg)
B412EPX: 5.100 ft (5.400 kg)

Sources: 169 RFM, 145/412 latest manufacturer data.

[SWBKCB]

Shortlisted bidders for the UK’s New Medium Helicopter (NMH) requirement will have to wait until the New Year for the next stage of the tender process after yet another schedule slip to the long-running procurement. Three companies – Airbus Helicopters, Leonardo Helicopters and Sikorsky – were notified in the autumn of 2022 that they had been cleared for the next stage of the NMH bid process, the release of the so-called Invitation to Negotiate (ITN).
The release of the ITN, detailing the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD’s) exact requirements for the acquisition, was initially scheduled for September 2022. That was then pushed into the first quarter of this year, then later in the first half, before being delayed again until late 2023.However, that deadline has now slipped further; publication of the ITN is now not expected before late January or early February 2024, according to multiple sources familiar with the MoD’s schedule.

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/fresh-schedule-blow-for-uks-new-medium-helicopter-programme/156152.article

[casper64]

HOGE MTOM @ ISA
H145D3: 8.955 ft (3.800 kg)
AW169EP: 11.500 ft (4.800 kg)
B412EPX: 8.200 ft (5.530 kg)

HOGE MTOM-100 kg @ ISA
H145D3: 10.815 ft (3.700 kg)
AW169EP: 12.000 ft (4.700 kg)
B412EPX: 9.000 ft (5.400 kg)

HOGE MTOM-100 kg @ ISA+20
H145D3: 8.570 ft (3.700 kg)
AW169EP: 8.400 ft (4.700 kg)
B412EPX: 5.100 ft (5.400 kg)

Sources: 169 RFM, 145/412 latest manufacturer data.
Exactly… so not a match to a 169 or 145

[sycamore]

A better metric would be to compare APS weight and then find `disposable payload`to a selected altitude/temp..

[Phoinix]

A better metric would be to compare APS weight and then find `disposable payload`to a selected altitude/temp..

I did that math months ago, 412 is never the best in anything.

[Blackhawk9]

Depends on where the aircraft is here in Oz 145 doesn't compare in range/payload to the EP, just about every operator that tried 117/145 end up going to 412's, though most 412 operators now going to 139, 412 is still a better bush machine.

[Phoinix]

Depends on where the aircraft is here in Oz 145 doesn't compare in range/payload to the EP, just about every operator that tried 117/145 end up going to 412's, though most 412 operators now going to 139, 412 is still a better bush machine.

Carful using the “hot/high”. If it’s just “hot”, and not high, even an EP wins hands down. As soon as you start adding the “high” component, it starts trailing behind.

[Stratofreighter]

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/nmh-rivals-could-receive-itn-document-this-month-uk-procurement-minister-says/157068.article The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) could be close to issuing its long-delayed invitation to negotiate (ITN) to contenders for the New Medium Helicopter (NMH) requirement, Minister for Defence Procurement James Cartlidge indicates.

“It will be published very soon,” Cartlidge told the House of Commons Defence Committee on 21 February 2024.
Pressed further, he adds: “I am hoping before the end of this month.”

The MoD in 2022 shortlisted a trio of potential bidders in support of a process primarily intended to replace Puma HC2 transport helicopters operated by the Royal Air Force,
and at that time was expected to issue the ITN later the same year.

Repeated slips to this schedule have frustrated rivals Airbus Helicopters, Leonardo Helicopters and Sikorsky parent Lockheed Martin,
and seen the Puma fleet edge closer to a planned out of service date in 2025.

Also speaking to the committee,
Chief of Defence Staff (Finance and Military Capability) Lieutenant General Rob Magowan
declined to provide an expected target date for an NMH platform to achieve initial operational capability (IOC),
noting that these factors would be informed by responses to the ITN document.

[NutLoose]

“It will be published very soon,” Cartlidge told the House of Commons Defence Committee on 21 February 2024.
Pressed further, he adds: “I am hoping before the end of this month.”

Will probably slip to April 1st, that seems apt for a couple of reasons.

Repeated slips to this schedule have frustrated rivals Airbus Helicopters, Leonardo Helicopters and Sikorsky parent Lockheed Martin,
and seen the Puma fleet edge closer to a planned out of service date in 2025.

They will still be talking about it and no metal will have been cut by 2025, so roll on the Out of Service extension date to about 2030-2035....

[SLXOwft]

Although ORAC has posted about this in the Military Aviation forum - I am posting here to keep this thread up-to-date.


Press releaseFuture UK military helicopter reaches next competition stageThe next stage of the New Medium Helicopter (NMH) Programme has been announced by the Minister for Defence Procurement, James Cartlidge, today.
From:Ministry of Defence (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ministry-of-defence), Defence Equipment and Support (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/defence-equipment-and-support), and James Cartlidge MP (https://www.gov.uk/government/people/james-cartlidge)

Published 27 February 2024

Bids open for New Medium Helicopter contract, as it moves to the Invitation to Negotiate phase
The new helicopter model will support Defence operations around the globe
The New Medium Helicopter will deliver up to five rotary wing requirements

The next stage of the New Medium Helicopter (NMH) Programme has been announced by the Minister for Defence Procurement, James Cartlidge, today.

The NMH Programme is an initiative to acquire a modern medium-lift support helicopter, which will deliver up to five rotary wing requirements using a single aircraft-type. This means that the platform will be able to undertake Defence tasks that were previously undertaken by up to five different aircraft types, streamlining our capabilities. This will improve efficiency and operational flexibility, positively impacting ongoing and future UK operational capability.

Once in service, it will provide the Armed Forces with a new medium lift aircraft capable of operating in all environments in support of a broad spectrum of Defence tasks, from warfighting to humanitarian efforts and operations around the world.

It was announced at the International Military Helicopter conference in London today that the Invitation to Negotiate has been released, meaning the three NMH candidate suppliers - Airbus Helicopters UK, Leonardo Helicopters UK and Lockheed Martin UK - will now compile their bids to be evaluated by the Ministry of Defence to determine the winning bidder.

The competition will be managed by Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) and proposals will be evaluated through 2025 when, subject to Government approvals, a contract award is anticipated.Minister for Defence Procurement, James Cartlidge said:The New Medium Helicopter will provide essential support to our military operations, and we’re pleased to have reached this next important stage of the programme.

The programme’s competition includes essential criteria that are key to securing vital rotary wing Operational Independence, allowing us to respond swiftly to emerging threats in a highly contested world.
The NMH competition will include essential industrial considerations, spanning design, production, manufacture and importantly, export potential. This means that the New Medium Helicopter contract will secure the vital operational independence we require, as well as investing in UK skills for the long-term and demonstrates the UK Government’s commitment to the Defence & Security Industrial Strategy.

[NutLoose]

I will correct that for you..

The competition will be mis-managed by Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) and proposals will be evaluated through 2029 when, subject to Government approvals, a contract award is anticipated to refurbish the existing Puma fleet to HC Mk3 standard.

:p

[minigundiplomat]

Election year - Leonardo will threaten to close Yeovil, at the most opportune (politically) time the 149 will be announced winner.

Is there anyone that doesn’t realise NMH is a stitch up?

[HeliHenri]

.
The United Kingdom intends on buying an estimated 14 fewer aircraft than targeted for its New Medium Helicopter (NMH (https://breakingdefense.com/2024/02/uk-invites-industry-bids-for-new-medium-helicopter-acquisition-sets-2025-contract-date/)) program, according to a senior industry executive :
UK New Medium Helicopter buy reduced to around 30 aircraft: Spirit AeroSystems Exec - Breaking Defense (https://breakingdefense.com/2024/05/uk-new-medium-helicopter-buy-reduced-to-around-30-aircraft-spirit-aerosystems-exec/)

The UK could buy as few as 23 aircraft through its New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest, FlightGlobal can reveal :
Minimum quantity sought through New Medium Helicopter tender falls further, sources indicate | In depth | Flight Global (https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/minimum-quantity-sought-through-new-medium-helicopter-tender-falls-further-sources-indicate/158096.article)
.

[pr00ne]

.
The United Kingdom intends on buying an estimated 14 fewer aircraft than targeted for its New Medium Helicopter (NMH (https://breakingdefense.com/2024/02/uk-invites-industry-bids-for-new-medium-helicopter-acquisition-sets-2025-contract-date/)) program, according to a senior industry executive :
UK New Medium Helicopter buy reduced to around 30 aircraft: Spirit AeroSystems Exec - Breaking Defense (https://breakingdefense.com/2024/05/uk-new-medium-helicopter-buy-reduced-to-around-30-aircraft-spirit-aerosystems-exec/)

The UK could buy as few as 23 aircraft through its New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest, FlightGlobal can reveal :
Minimum quantity sought through New Medium Helicopter tender falls further, sources indicate | In depth | Flight Global (https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/minimum-quantity-sought-through-new-medium-helicopter-tender-falls-further-sources-indicate/158096.article)
.

Well, seeing as this is now purely a Puma HC2 programme, there are 23 Puma HC2’s.