Recovering Windows files from HDD

[Uplinker]

Hello; can I ask for recommendations of companies or websites I could try in order to read files from the HDD in my ancient Windows 3.1 PC. The HDD works and is not broken, but I accidentally and unwittingly erased the Boot Head File, so the machine says it cannot find Windows, so I cannot see or extract my files.

Happy to buy the equipment and do the job myself, but just need some direction.


Thanks.

[Jhieminga]

You should be able to get an external USB enclosure or converter, remove the drive from the PC and fit it to the enclosure and plug it into a different system to read it. Alternatively, you can download something like Knoppix or a similar Linux distribution, put that on a USB drive and boot the PC from that so that you can get to your files using Linux. The question is what you want to do next? Do you want to get this system up and running again or do you just want to copy old files off this drive?
Make sure to get a USB converter that allows you to fit a drive with an IDE interface, as I'm sure that this drive predates the SATA interface. Google 'IDE to USB converter' for some suggestions.

[Tocsin]

Another option is to find a recommended local 'computer shop' that has the kit and experience to recover the HDD data. As Jhieminga says, it depends on what your desired end state is. I would not recommend using the professional data recovery companies for the situation you have described - they are more useful for the seriously-deleted HDDs!

[Saab Dastard]

Jhieminga's suggestion of putting the HDD into an external caddy that will convert the IDE / PATA interface to USB so that you can read the data and save it elsewhere is likely to be the simplest way forward. The HDD will be formatted as FAT16, so there shouldn't be any problem with security / file permissions, unlike NTFS.

I assume that the old PC still has a floppy disk drive - do you still have a the appropriate floppy disks, and are they still readable? That system is DOS 5 / 6.X under the hood, and it's pretty easy to boot from a floppy system disk and recreate the boot files - io.sys, MSDOS.sys, autoexec.bat and config.sys, although the first 2 have to be restored using the sys command to make the disk bootable again, as they can't simply be copied over like the second 2. If you are tempted to repair the HDD, ensure that you have copied over all the data BEFORE doing anything else! Here's a helpful article on the DOS / Win 3.x boot process: https://jdebp.uk/FGA/dos-windows-boot-process.html

Wow, blast from the past there! More than a 1/4 of a century since I had to do anything like that.

[Loose rivets]

A pal called me one day years ago and said his girlfriend had filled her Visa operated laptop to the point it wouldn't even run Ccleaner. It was one of those lovely units with Altec Lancing sound etc., etc. She had raised it 4" above a solid table and dropped it, in the hope it would spur it into action and release the zillions of photos she'd taken a year to take. No backups. None.

It happened I'd got a Vista restore disc for one of my Vaios but I didn't dare risk it.. She had trained all over the UK photographing cathedrals with her new Nikon, so an even bigger investment. I downloaded the latest Ubuntu and put the ISO on a stick. I worked perfectly but it took me two days to copy all the folders onto my hard disc and DVD's for her. I then tried my backup Vista. To my astonishment it restored Windows perfectly.

She gave me the computer which has been running ever since on W7.

[sherburn2LA]

Unless the 3.1 is a 'retro' in which case he would not need our advice he isn't going to have a USB. Even a CD if present is most unlikely to be a boot device. So taking the HDD out would be required. Easy enough on most mopdels even without exactly the right tools unless you are completely ham fisted. Getting it back together however... While my advice to retainXP and now Windows 7 if they are good enough for your needs and you avoid the risks was perfectly serious not just to wind up Mixture, Windows 3.1 is a bit more of a head scratcher.

The non destructive alternative as said is floppy's - if his drive still works and if he has somewhere else to create them which may be the biggest show stopper. One of the several universal MS-DOS disks (eg Bart's) would probably do the trick just to get files off. Maybe a PPruner with time to spare would create and mail you one - or even a selection that could get your files off .

[Fark'n'ell]

Try Google Repair Windows 3.1

[Uplinker]

Thank you very much for the replies so far. Some useful information to get me started - I will certainly look into those :ok:

Ironically, my mis-step with the BIOS came about because I was trying to prepare a second HDD to back up the first one, in case of HDD failure !

My old 486 PC tower has a 3" floppy drive and a CD drive. Nothing else, no USB. I do still have the Windows floppys but have not tried them to see if they are still viable. On start-up, the machine first looks in the floppy drive, then the CD drive.

I would like to get the machine running again - it cannot connect to the internet, so is safe from any hacking or spyware etc. Another thing I would like to recover are the back-up files for my Psion, which contained a lot of contacts and other data I would like to recover.

I am thinking of building Windows on another HDD fitted into the spare slot and wiring in the PC, and then possibly internally move the files I need from the old HDD with no boot file over to the new HDD?

I did take my PC to a guy who really knows what he is doing, but unfortunately he is also very unreliable. He takes on too much work and then leaves things stacked up in his workshop, forgotten about until you demand they be returned, (unfixed). I could Google it of course, but I want actual advice from people who know, rather than me spending ages going down rabbit holes and watching Youtube clips from people who don't know what they are doing.

Once I have sorted the leaking plumbing in the house we have just moved into, and a hundred other DIY jobs; I hope to get started with my PC.

[Jhieminga]

Forget all I said about USB.... ;)

What you could try... dig up your floppys and try to boot from them. If that works, get out of the setup (hit the F3 key) and from the command prompt (make sure you're at the root of the floppy) try:

SYS C:
copy CONFIG.SYS C:
copy AUTOEXEC.BAT C:
FDISK /MBR

The first command adds the needed system files to your drive, you then copy the two startup files to the C: drive and the FDISK command should sort out the master boot record for your C: drive.

I'm digging deep in my memory for this and have looked up some stuff online so cannot guarantee anything. Removing the drive and using this in an external caddy is still the safest way to get to your data if you ask me, but if you're up for an experiment and willing to take the risk, have a go!

Edit: You used to be able to install Windows 3.1 over an existing installation, keeping your files intact, but if you can't boot from the drive, that option will not be there I think.

[Uplinker]

Thanks jhieminga, I appreciate your time. I want to try all this now instead of doing the plumbing, but needs must !


I will try booting from the floppys.


I also have a more modern, (but old) HP Windows machine, running Windows 10. If the floppys fail, by putting the old HDD in a USB caddy; can I just ask the HP to find and retrieve files by file name, say, "3xxlims.pub" or "abcdefgh.doc" or is it more complex than that?

[Jhieminga]

If you put the drive in a USB caddy you will see it as a regular external drive, it's just like plugging in a USB thumbdrive. You can then see the entire folder structure of that drive and as it was way before the time of user profiles, the folder structure is most likely pretty simple. Filenames were restricted to eight characters with an extension so it may take a while to figure out what everything is. I would simply start by copying the entire drive, every file and folder on it, to a single folder on your existing W10 system (retaining the folder structure of course) and do the searching in there. That way the Win3.1 drive will be unaffected and you can still go back and try to get it running on the old system. You can indeed use the regular search functions within Windows to find all doc files, or browse the folders to find a Psion one, things like that.

Edit: forgot to add that it's the first Windows 3.1 floppy that should be bootable. If you have a DOS 6.22 floppy, same thing applies.

[Uplinker]

Fantastic. That sounds pretty straightforward - all I wanted was to recover my files. I can rebuild the system at some other time. I wonder what the hell my "expert" was doing for months. Obviously not an expert at all.


Well, plumbing or no plumbing, I am going to try this soon, and if it works I will buy you a drink !


Going to order an HDD caddy now :ok:

[atakacs]

If you get the HDD caddy I'd suggest you make an image backup of the disk before you do anything else.

[Saab Dastard]

Ironically, my mis-step with the BIOS came about because I was trying to prepare a second HDD to back up the first one, in case of HDD failure !
If you were trying to configure a 2nd HDD in the BIOS, it wouldn't have affected the boot sector / MBR on the existing HDD. Are you sure you haven't just removed / disabled the existing HDD from the BIOS settings? If you changed the CHS settings in the BIOS, so that the drive isn't recognised, then you need to identify what they should be and reset them - the HDD should give some clues, and you can often look up online information, although I'd be surprised if a disk that old has any reference material online. You may be able to work out CHS settings (if that's the problem) from first principles, given the size of the disk. If you are lucky, there might be an Auto option for the disk config in the BIOS, but it might be a bit old for that.

If you get the HDD caddy I'd suggest you make an image backup of the disk before you do anything else. If the OP follows the advice to put the old HDD in a USB caddy and copy the data from it before doing anything else, why would it be necessary to create an image of the disk? If a file copy is successful, then what benefit would a block copy be? If the data can't be copied off as files, and other tools / options need to be used to try to extract data, then yes, a block copy to a blank disk will allow multiple data retrieval attempts. But since a file copy doesn't involve writing to the original disk, it's a zero risk first approach.

[Uplinker]

Here's what happened, (don't laugh:))

The PC clock battery had gone flat, so the PC did not know the date etc. I replaced the clock IC, (with internal battery) and went into the DOS to reset the date and time.

While I was there I was looking at the HDD settings in the BIOS and was trying to see how the hard disk was configured so I could configure a second HDD to be a back-up. I didn't know enough about the BIOS or what I was doing, so I backed out, but unfortunately when the message came up "save settings and exit" or "ignore changes and exit" , I accidentally, stupidly clicked the wrong one !!!!!! Aaaaaaargh !!!!

The PC was still fine and worked, but after I had shut it down and next switched it on, it said it couldn't find Windows, only DOS came up. My computer expert told me I had erased the Boot Head File, but I don't know.

I have to get my PC out of the loft and see what HDD it has - the caddys I have found so far accept SATA HDDs, and the connector looks different to the one I remember on my HDD.

[Saab Dastard]

You need something like this: IDE - USB adapter that will provide power to your IDE PATA drive as well as the ide interface to output to USB that you can connect to another PC. Other similar devices are available, this is not a recommendation, just an indication!

[In rerum natura]

With an LED monitor (flicker no longer a problem) and SVGA.EXE (I'm using an AGP Radeon), Windows 3.x becomes quite useable again:
Windows 3.1 | 3.11 | WFWG | Resources | Downloads (http://www.conradshome.com/win31/)

[Uplinker]

Thank you Saab, yes, that's it !, my HDD is an IDE type - I do remember the large 4 pin power connector.

OK, well I will order one of those and get the machine down from the loft.

Yes, I found Windows 3.1 to be all I needed for creating documents, diagrams - using Microsoft Publisher, and spreadsheets. No connection to the internet, (only a fax modem), so no security issues with sensitive data, and no problems with hackers or malware. (and no stupid paper clip assistant !). I can listen to a CD while doing my accounts or whatever - old school, but most civilised.

[In rerum natura]

With luck your C: drive is jumpered as Master on a standard IDE cable. My only major data loss was when adding a second HDD to an ICL 486 IDE Cable Select (CS) system. I had failed to appreciate the niceties of CS and it went belly-up. And sometimes the Master drive could be at the end of the cable, at other times in the centre. I worked on an HP Pavilion P4 recently whose BIOS/hardware seemed to insist on Cable Select (a correctly jumpered and cabled Master/Slave setup was not recognised). [Some may remember Laplink and serial crossover cables as a means of data transfer on old machines.]

[Jhieminga]

I'm trying to think what you could have done in the BIOS that messed up your drive. The BIOS settings only exist in there, so it should not have affected your drive at all. Nothing should have been deleted because of it. The main issue that could have happened is that you changed the drive settings. On those BIOSses you needed to set the Cylinders, Heads and Sectors for the drive you were using manually and if you changed something here, the drive will not be recognised anymore. If you're lucky, the BIOS will have an 'auto-detect' option in that section and you can click on that to find the needed numbers. If that option is not there, you will need to get the drive out of the computer (but you will be doing that anyway to copy files) and look on the drive itself for those numbers. Fill those in and that should get it up and running again. Saab Dastard mentioned this in an earlier post too.

The other option is that you changed the boot order for your system. You mentioned that it looks at the floppy, then the CD drive, perhaps you've told it not to look at the harddrive anymore. Check the Boot section of the BIOS to see if the harddrive is still mentioned as a boot option. It is useful to have another drive as a first boot option for use in emergencies, but have the harddrive set as second or third boot option.

Anyway, find an IDE to USB converter and copy your files first, that is the important bit. I am betting on the drive being fine though and that you'll only need to get the BIOS straightened out again.

[cattletruck]

Methinks he should reset the BIOS to factory defaults, alternatively pull the clock battery out, count to 10, then put it back in.

If I recall correctly, hardware of that vintage needed the master/slave disks correctly matched in the BIOS for them to work. I suspect master is now slave and/or vicey-versa.

Anyways, I'm currently in Uplinkers bad books at the moment (hehe), so perhaps someone else on here could back me up.

[Jhieminga]

That's also an option, that the Master/Slave settings on the drives (either jumpered or cable select) do not match the settings in the BIOS. I suspect that there's a single harddrive that should be set as the Primary IDE Master and the CD drive will be the Primary IDE Slave. If that has been changed, it could also lead to this situation perhaps.

[Saab Dastard]

Jhieminga (https://www.pprune.org/members/48625-jhieminga)

It is actually possible to corrupt a HDD by entering the wrong value for cylinders when setting CHS parameters (enter a value in excess of the maximum and stand well back), but unlikely to have been done here.

Good call on the boot order - might be that straightforward.

Also wondering if any rejigging of the IDE cable / jumpers was done, so that Cable Select no longer recognizes the disk because it's on the wrong connector - if the OP was trying to add a 2nd HDD. Or if a 2nd HDD was added without configuring the jumpers correctly (master / slave / CS) - that's a good way to prevent any drives being detected.

Slightly puzzled by the "it said it couldn't find Windows, only DOS came up" statement - that sounds like the disk IS being seen for DOS to boot, but the Windows installation isn't starting correctly. There's something in the back of my mind though that is nagging me about old PCs booting into ROM BIOS (that looks like a DOS prompt) if no boot medium is found. It's nearly 30 years since I last saw that, so forgive the memory lapse!

[Jhieminga]

Aaahhh... I didn't know that particular method of frying a drive... I guess I've been lucky so far!

To me that particular statement reads like a BIOS message (the first screen does look like DOS booting) that is telling the user that there is no operating system present. That could be because of a multitude of things. I've seen it turn up when I left a USB drive without any OS on it in place, having switched the boot order to start with USB for some reason. On a system of that vintage, it could be because it is looking at empty A: or D: drives (floppy/CD) first, the IDE drive isn't recognised, the drive is corrupt, the MBR is missing, the software is misbehaving.... and so on. I just thought of another one: with Win 3.11 you had to start Windows from Autoexec.bat if you wanted to boot straight to it, so if that file is missing, or if the PATH parameter isn't set correctly, that could also give you some sort of error (although I would expect a 'file not found' for that one).

I am enjoying the trip down memory lane and all these old computer tricks though :p

[Uplinker]

Sorry folks, I have been busy with other things.

I will certainly look on the HDD case for the cylinders etc and see if they are still correct in the BIOS.

If these were changed would it mean that the HDD is as it was, but the PC is looking at it "wrongly" now, so doesn't recognise anything on there?

If the BIOS settings are wrong and I change them, would anything overwrite to the HDD or is it just the EPROM on the Motherboard that gets changed?

I will also try all the other advice - for which I am very grateful to you all. I have a mountain of DIY jobs, but I will get to it and report back when I do.

No, cattletruck, you are not in my bad books - just robust debate ! :)

[Uplinker]

OK, I am all fired-up now, so I got the old PC out.

Here is the drive info. If I check the BIOS and reset it if necessary for 1048 cyl, 16 heads, 63 spt etc, would I endanger any info on the HDD?


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/dc6a38d7_3f51_43f5_8862_9b86a92b41e8_320396bf18ed2d8218f000b e5975c3d083ba75e6.jpeg

[Saab Dastard]

If I check the BIOS and reset it if necessary for 1048 cyl, 16 heads, 63 spt etc, would I endanger any info on the HDD?
If the BIOS was configured to address the disk with those parameters (and it should have been, given that they are written on the disk), then no. If, for some reason, the parameters used were different then possibly, but that's highly unlikely. There may be an "Autodetect" setting in the BIOS which you can try.
If these were changed would it mean that the HDD is as it was, but the PC is looking at it "wrongly" now, so doesn't recognise anything on there? Yes. This is one possibility for the PC not booting from the HDD. Changing the boot order or simply disabling / removing the HDD in the BIOS would have a similar effect.
If the BIOS settings are wrong and I change them, would anything overwrite to the HDD or is it just the EPROM on the Motherboard that gets changed? As long as you don't enter incorrect drive parameters, then the data on the HDD shouldn't be affected, as you say you will just be changing settings in the BIOS on the mobo.

I'm impressed at the whopping 540MB disk size! :) My first PC was a 486SX that had a 100MB disk with 4MB RAM.

SD

[Jhieminga]

Good luck, hope it works!

(386 with coprocessor, 4 sticks of 1MB RAM each, 63Mb harddrive.... how times have changed)

[Fark'n'ell]

My first PC was a 486SX that had a 100MB disk with 4MB RAM.

Mine was a 286,20 meg hd,1meg of ram,33meg processor.

[Uplinker]

Thank you Saab and others. I might try to revive it this weekend.

540Mb, yes I know ! And only about half full. :)

We forget how much memory modern programs and data use up .

[Uplinker]

Yay ! SUCCESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I fired up the venerable old PC today and looked again at the BIOS. There was no data at all for the hard drive configuration.



https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/d7cda749_d5dd_4ad0_8b5a_7c6c2f296cf1_365203e56d967e4bb3be374 eb74232c5f87d2fd4.jpeg



There was an autodetect function, (autotype) which I selected. It looked at the HDD and put the correct configuration in:



https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/766a7bca_3bdd_4080_8f08_1fb77d7b1032_fd4e02a982f969b4ccbb831 99a4a07b80aaa3382.jpeg


I then rebooted the PC, and HEY PRESTO !!!!!!!!!!!



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/1a8ed528_6fb7_44ed_b022_24fa40829d17_e74894f414a6f0eedf41d64 4ab6f3ea1ce58a998.jpeg



Everything is back. All my Psion back-up, my old files and accounts info, everything.


That was so easy, and the so-called "expert" I took it to was an idiot.


Thank you all so much for your help. I think it was Saab Dastard who first suggested the autodetect - called autotype on my PC to reset the settings the DOS was using to read the HDD.


If any of you are ever holidaying in the South West UK, please pm me and I will buy the drinks !


Many thanks to all again.


My next job is to back up this HDD since it is quite elderly.

[Jhieminga]

That’s great news! Good to hear that everything is back to normal again. Good to see a Win 3.1 screen again... it brings back memories :8

[Saab Dastard]

Nice one - always good when something works out well!

If you do want to add a 2nd HDD, be aware of a few things - you will probably struggle to find a disk < 2GB, which is the maximum size that DOS 6 and Windows 3.1 can recognise, using FAT 16. The BIOS may not even be able to recognise disks over 540MB, but you might be lucky with a later BIOS that can recognise disks up to 8GB, using various techniques, such as LBA. You would have to create multiple partitions each less than < 2GB for DOS to use such a large disk.

Assuming you do find such a disk, or have one spare, you will need to ensure that you configure the jumper settings correctly on the disks - existing HDD should be set to Primary and the new HDD to Secondary. We used to say Master and Slave, but that's not PC (pun intended) any more. If your IDE cable supports it (80-wire with 40-pin connector Ultra ATA cable) you can set the jumpers on both HDDs to CS (Cable Select), with the current boot disk on the Primary connector (should be written on the connector). CS is supposed to be better, due to less noise on the cable.

At least now you know how to set the disk parameters - just use Autotype!

SD

[In rerum natura]

Rather than buy a secondhand IDE drive which could give up the ghost at any moment, one could buy a PATA2SATA3 Bi-Directional SATA IDE Adapter Converter (Bi-directional adapter converts IDE to SATA or SATA to IDE) from Startech (a reliable brand).
Or something similar ... there may be space constraints inside the case. And then buy a new SATA drive.

Okay, so the smallest SATA HDD you can buy new (we're talking about from reliable websites) looks like 500 GB.
So you have a 500 GB drive. How can you use that with a machine whose limit (probably fixed absolutely by the capabilities of the BIOS which no amount of clever partitioning can solve) is 8 GB (there are 2 insurmountable size barriers at around the 8 GB mark)?

Answer, you use the ATA command Set Max LBA. Something like Set Max LBA = 16777216.

That's 16777216 blocks * 512 bytes per block = 8589934592 /1024 = 8388608 kilobytes /1024 = 8192 megabyes /1024 = 8 gigabytes.

Given that the Phoenix BIOS cannot be earlier than 1994 there should be no problem with LBA and the appropriate ATA command set.

https://www.seagate.com/gb/en/support/kb/using-seatools-set-capacity-feature-to-overcome-bios-capacity-limitation-182971en/

You will need the drive manufacturer's utility program (or other disk utility) to do this. And you will have sacrificed a lot of space on the
new drive. This can be done successfully with either a large PATA drive (if you find one ... then no adapter is necessary) or SATA, but it is all rather arcane and mind-numbing.

As I wrote above, I was very wary of Cable Select as there seemed to be conflicting standards. Hard jumpered Master HDD at the
end of the cable and Slave HDD at the middle always seemed safest (if less convenient when swapping drives around) to me. You can replace the 40 conductor IDE ribbon cable with an 80 conductor cable for greater reliability.

A woman came to see Nasrudin.
W: I want my son to stop eating sugar, he's addicted.
N: Come back in 2 weeks.
2 weeks later.
N: Tell him to stop or he will be punished.
W: Why did you wait 2 weeks.
N: I wanted to see if it was possible first.

[Jhieminga]

Finding a drive that would work as a second drive for backups in that system may be a challenge. It will be a bit of a job, but fitting the existing drive to a newer system using the aforementioned IDE to USB converter might still be the easiest way of doing this. The alternatives mentioned by In rerum natura might also work, but every change to a system of this vintage is going to be challenging.
I haven't checked, but is there some sort of tool that will allow you to use a USB drive to use as a backup medium? Post #17 has a link to some interesting resources.
Edit: I just remembered... there is no USB option on this system... I keep forgetting that as it is such a common interface these days!

[Uplinker]

I restored all the Psion data from the PC so have got back all the old contacts and data that was stored on my Psion.

I have an HDD from a family member's upgraded iMac. This other drive is 2Gb and has exactly the right data and power connectors to fit in my 486 Windows 3.1 PC. There is a spare power connector on the PC's loom, and I have an 80 pin master/slave data ribbon, which has marked plugs for CPU board, Master, Slave, and says Cable Select on it.

I might put the 2Gb drive in the slave position and autodetect it, now I know how to do that. Then copy everything from the original HDD to the slave with file manager. Then disconnect the power to the slave so as not to over stress the PC PSU and keep the slave as a 'sleeping' back-up if/when the original HDD gives up.

But the other DIY will have to take precedence, and I am slightly reluctant to "fiddle" any further, having got my data back !

[Saab Dastard]

I have an 80 pin master/slave data ribbon, which has marked plugs for CPU board, Master, Slave, and says Cable Select on it. I might put the 2Gb drive in the slave position and autodetect itDon't forget to set the jumpers on the HDDs to the correct position - Master / Slave / Cable Select.

[Equivocal]

Mine was a 286,20 meg hd,1meg of ram,33meg processor.
If I might belatedly join the mine's smaller than yours debate, mine had an 8088 - don't think clock speed is of any relevance! - and 640K of RAM. A few months after I got it I spent pretty much the same again buying a decent word processor, WordPerfect 5.1 and a Winchester disc, as it was commonly called in those days, on an ISA expansion card. IIRC, the capacity was 10MB, but it offered a huge amount of storage and was far better than the alternative, 360K floppies.

And thanks for the pics of Windows 3.1 - a real blast from the past!

[Jhieminga]

If you want to play that game.... I mentioned my first PC in a previous post. My first computer was a Tandy Colour Computer 2 with 64Kb memory, a Motorola 6809E @ 0.897 Mhz and a cassette player for storage. :}

[Asturias56]

What is odd is that over 30 years a reasonably equipped desktop for work purposes has always finished up costing £ 1500....................