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flash8
14th Feb 2021, 04:52
So, was viewing this here.... (the woman and little girl are seated at approx 06.55).

https://youtu.be/lhujXlunAoI?t=419

And was surprised to see the facing seating arrangements, as I never thought this was the case (outside early heavy jet first class configurations where anything seemed possible), so the early BEA Trident seating configuration had some seats facing each other?

This was rather a surprise to me, thought it might also be of interest to some (the footage is also historically interesting).

I have seen this also on some other Trident footage (viewed after this) that confirms it seemed standard around the time, just one pair towards the front of the a/c.

Was this carried forward later with Trident services or did they take these out?

chevvron
14th Feb 2021, 07:58
T2Es of Channle/BKS had opposite facing seats; just one row in the middle of the cabin. When Channel went bust, BEA bought them.
(I thnk)

Asturias56
14th Feb 2021, 08:04
Yes they had some reversed seating - it was a lot more comfortable I used it several times

By George
14th Feb 2021, 08:11
My earliest memory of travelling with my parents is flying BEA London to Germany facing two of my brothers in a club seating arrangement with a table in the middle. I remember it well because I fought with my older brother because I didn't want to fly backwards. Not a Trident, earlier than that, an Airspeed Ambassador. Was this a BEA thing? Seems very British in that very English civilised way.

DaveReidUK
14th Feb 2021, 08:23
T2Es of Channel/BKS had opposite facing seats; just one row in the middle of the cabin. When Channel went bust, BEA bought them.
(I think)

Yes, they were subsequently used by Northeast (actually Trident 1Es).

Note the 7-abreast seating in the forward cabin when operated by Channel - ouch!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/353x267/channel_airways_trident_1e_140_seven_abreast_cabin_seating_n eil_lomax_collection_1c535891392ba638515877aa6ab3410ed09599e a.jpg

Wycombe
14th Feb 2021, 08:33
I remember travelling on a BA Trident 2 MAN-LHR (Shuttle backup) in the mid 80's which had a rear-facing row at the front.

I also used to fly in RAF VC10's quite a bit at the time, where all pax seats were rear-facing, so it was nothing that unusual to me.

lexoncd
14th Feb 2021, 08:48
Dan air and others had reverse facing seats on the BAC 1-11 at the emergency rows over the wing. Same on the 727 at the rear exit on the starboard side too.

Allan Lupton
14th Feb 2021, 08:54
The BEA Trident 1 had face-to-face seats at the escape hatch and the seats from there to the front of the Economy Class were rear-facing. Somewhere there's a seating layout drawing, but I can't find it for the moment. The 2E had two escape hatches per side but I can't recall how they affected the seating as it's all rather long ago.

oyviv
14th Feb 2021, 08:57
I remember travelling on a BA Trident 2 MAN-LHR (Shuttle backup) in the mid 80's which had a rear-facing row at the front.


Like Wycombe, I remember the rear facing row on the Trident 2. No fun during take off and climb IMO. However
I donít recall the Trident 3 having this arrangement.
rgds Viv (former BA staff ( 1970s) in Copenhagen, where we mainly saw the Tridents 2/3 and later the Tristar)

Gordomac
14th Feb 2021, 09:27
Really long time ago but I seem to recall, on NE T1E, starboard side, three seats facing forward at the front bulkhead, just aft of the forward stbd galley ( blimey, work that out). Great during turnrounds where Capt, F/O & FE would occupy, facing three popsies (didn't have Stewards) tucking into our crew meals.. Hawker S (forget how to spell Sydley) must have thought of us crew in the design spec.

VictorGolf
14th Feb 2021, 10:11
I flew "backwards" from Amsterdam to Heathrow on Trident 2 G-AVFA, flt no BE511 on 5/3/72 if that helps.

DaveReidUK
14th Feb 2021, 10:24
The BEA Trident 1 had face-to-face seats at the escape hatch and the seats from there to the front of the Economy Class were rear-facing. Somewhere there's a seating layout drawing, but I can't find it for the moment. The 2E had two escape hatches per side but I can't recall how they affected the seating as it's all rather long ago.

Duxford's Trident 2E (rear cabin, looking aft):

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x852/duxford_t2e_half_size_6282c7e27d37e5eb8612a8c3983634de0add79 a7.jpg

https://www.airliners.net/photo/BEA-British-European-Airways/Hawker-Siddeley-HS-121-Trident-2E/1375962

rog747
14th Feb 2021, 10:36
I think most BEA Tridents had pullman seats at the front row with a wood veneer table between them - The Northeast 1E's had this too.

When new, Trident One's had first class seating but was this convertibles?
1968 T1C configs were -

16F 64Y > 16/70
8F 76Y > 8/82
88Y > 93Y (shuttle 100 Y)

The BEA Trident 1C (84 seats 2 class) had a few rows of rearward - facing passenger seats at
the front of the rear Y cabin, rows 9 10 and 11. A facing table seating arrangement in exit rows 12
and 13. In row 12 and 13, the Pax sat up "over the table". In the first class the passengers sat "all across the table "
The front first class had "table seating only" and pax sat face to face.
The Vickers Vanguard and later Trident versions had rearward seating arrangements as well.

T3
14F and 119 Y
or all Y 140 pax (convertible F/Y seats)

T1E 123 Y
T2E not sure of configs

I recall the 2E's and early 1C rear cabin were rear facing rows to the exits then changed to forward facing.
T3's had a rear facing row at the front of the rear cabin

BEA comet with first class sovereign service (10 F + 79 Y)
BEA Vanguard 951 18 F 109 Y
or 953 all Y 132 then 135

Re Channel Airways 1E-140's
I actually flew on that thing. STN-RMI and also to PMI. I was a tad smaller than I am now. We even sat in one of the 4 seaters along with Mum & Dad plus one of my school pals.
It was fine and noticeably much better leg room than an Air Spain DC-8 a few years later. (Worst ever for me was sitting on a Monarch 757 and Virgin Express 737)

zlin77
14th Feb 2021, 10:36
I can remember flying in a Trident from LHR-EDI in about 1975/6 the forward rows in economy were facing each other...

Shackman
14th Feb 2021, 11:12
Going back to 68-69, I seem to remember flying in BEA Vanguards which also had face to face seating in some rows with a table between them (a la British Rail) - a good place to play cards with the other guys in the detail.

DaveReidUK
14th Feb 2021, 11:54
Here's the Trident 1 F8Y82 configuration from an old timetable:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/509x254/bea_trident_1c_seating_5a3bb7debf1252c4dde7547ec67d3f25a11d7 d9c.jpg

28 out of the 90 seats were rearward-facing - note also the fold-up tables in the forward two cabins.

https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/be/be6806/

DON T
14th Feb 2021, 13:33
RAF VC10s and Brittanias had complete rear facing seating.

Juliet Sierra Papa
14th Feb 2021, 15:52
Cyprus Airways Trident Sunjets also had rear facing seats at the emergency exits mid cabin.

JSP

Level bust
14th Feb 2021, 16:07
I only flew on a Trident twice, there and back to Athens on a Trident 2. On the way home we flew facing backwards, I seem to remember it was a weird experience, especially taking off!

Airbanda
14th Feb 2021, 16:14
I'm fairly sure that when I flew LBA/LHR on a BA Viscount 806 in 1979 there was at least on 'club 4' seating bay. Forward end of the cabin, RHS.

thegypsy
14th Feb 2021, 16:15
Gordomac

So you had a F/E on the panel then in Northeast wheras we in BEA had a Pilot which was reason I left and joined Britannia .

old,not bold
14th Feb 2021, 17:41
We looked very closely at installing rear-facing seats in F27-400s in the '70s, because the safety case was so strong. But we were defeated by the need to lose 2 seats as a result of the extra weight. The accountants were appalled by the notion that 2 seats, out of 44, should be sacrificed to safety. Only the RAF got away with it in those days, and very comfortable those VC10s and Britannias were as a result. My memory fails me on whether trooping contractors such as Eagle also had them.

The weight issue came from the need for the seatback and reclining hinge not to collapse with up to 9G load with an occupant of up to 18-stone/115 Kg (I think it was...). Some of the weight could be removed if the seat were non-reclining, but not all by any means.

PAXboy
14th Feb 2021, 19:36
When I went LHR-HAM in Dec '75, I was invited to choose a reward facing seat if I then filled in a questionnaire. I did and I did, saying it was all fine.
The saftey of rear facing pax seats is well established, as is pax preference not to like thm. Forgetting that many travel backwards on a train.

Rwy in Sight
14th Feb 2021, 20:39
I was lucky to fly on reward facing seat as late as 2009 on an ATR-42 aircraft. There was only one aircraft with a row of such a seats and I was lucky to see one of those available. Nice experience. As PAXboy said I am on those trying to seat backwards on a train.

WHBM
14th Feb 2021, 23:05
I remember a BA Shuttle, Manchester to London, early 1980s. Pretty sure it was a Trident 3. My client had the forward facing window seat and I had the rearward facing one directly looking at him. Short sector, minimum fuel, and we went up from Manchester it seemed like a rocket, in a decidedly Non-Gripper attitude ! Restrained only by my seat belt, I really thought if that gave way I would fall directly into said client's face. He was a grumpy old git at all times. I started to laugh, had to control myself.

We looked very closely at installing rear-facing seats in F27-400s in the '70s, because the safety case was so strong. But we were defeated by the need to lose 2 seats as a result of the extra weight. The accountants were appalled by the notion that 2 seats, out of 44, should be sacrificed to safety. Only the RAF got away with it in those days, and very comfortable those VC10s and Britannias were as a result. My memory fails me on whether trooping contractors such as Eagle also had them.
Boeing actually did a serious study in the 1970s (they used to do those then) which looked in detail at this old sore of "only the RAF are concerned about safety". They examined multiple actual accidents and the issues arising.

What they found was that forward-facing was less susceptible to injuries. The key issue was not so much passengers being restrained by the seat back, but that in forward-facing seats you are much more protected from the vast amounts of detritus flying forward. Service carts broken free from their restraints. Cabin bags. Other passengers. Detached cabin fittings. Seat units. Etc. Forward-facing, the seatback protects you from most of this. Rearward-facing, you get it all smash in the face.

Anyone ever keep that report ?

UK trooping contracts did indeed long require rearward-facing seats. In those simpler times this just required two engineers, a box of spanners, and a couple of hours work. Overhead PSUs were placed to suit either direction. Plus the same to put them back afterwards. The aircraft could be quite intensively used and sometimes a delay meant there was not the time to put them back, so the next couple of scheduled sectors had to be done with reversed seats, to the surprise of the passengers. Both British United and British Eagle had accounts of One-Elevens on early morning domestic trunk runs where this happened.

India Four Two
15th Feb 2021, 00:54
In those simpler times this just required two engineers, a box of spanners, and a couple of hours work.

WHBM,

That's interesting. I thought I had read that rear-facing seats had to be much stronger than forward-facing ones because they had to cope with the mass of the passenger in a rapid deceleration case.

WHBM
15th Feb 2021, 01:01
That's interesting. I thought I had read that rear-facing seats had to be much stronger than forward-facing ones because they had to cope with the mass of the passenger in a rapid deceleration case.
That's nowadays.

This was then ... :)

Kenny Carter
15th Feb 2021, 04:15
Did the BOAC VC10's have a club seating arrangement near the rear? Vaguely remember one back in '73 SYD-LHR...

Flyingmole
15th Feb 2021, 06:52
However there was a severe runway overrun of a trooping Britannia (sorry, cannot remember precise details but I think it was in the Med area and I can remember seeing a photo of the plane nose-down on a steep embankment). Not a single serious injury, whereas if it had had forward facing seats there would have been multiple fractures and facial injuries, We have to remember that (i) the RAF/Army decision was based on an immense amount of wartime experience and that (ii) trooping flights did not have the same level of in-flight amenity. I've often read the airline excuse that 'passenger wouldn't like it' but having flown more than a few thousand miles in trooping Hermes and Britannias during the 50s and 60s, I cannot recall any sensation of 'facing backwards; once your above FL100.

On the original issue of facing seats, I flew BEA Viscount to Jersey in 1964 and that had a number of rows of such seats.

washoutt
15th Feb 2021, 08:47
WHBM's point of debris flying in ones face is valid in the case of rareward facing seats. If I rember correctly, the passengers in forward facing seats need to be protected against facial injury by certification rules, requiring the backside top of the seat in front to have a cushion so facial impact in emergency landing conditions may be allieviated. That's the reason why seats must be in an upright postion, so that the cushion on the back is in the right postion relative to the face of the rear passenger.

treadigraph
15th Feb 2021, 09:06
I had a rearwards facing seat on a Southwest 737 out of El Paso about twenty years ago; felt slightly odd but certainly not uncomfortable during acceleration and climb, and was great for chat between the three of us travelling.

Bergerie1
15th Feb 2021, 09:17
Not when I was flying them, Kenny Carter

ZFT
15th Feb 2021, 09:46
I was lucky to fly on reward facing seat as late as 2009 on an ATR-42 aircraft. There was only one aircraft with a row of such a seats and I was lucky to see one of those available. Nice experience. As PAXboy said I am on those trying to seat backwards on a train.

Did likewise from Gatwick to Plymouth on a BA ATR on a Tuesday evening for an away football match. Got odd looks from the forward facing pax at my attire. Suit, football scarf and a carrier bag with essentials. Flew back in same seat with same crew next morning.

pax britanica
15th Feb 2021, 14:59
I flew
Rome in 1972 ona trident 2 i think with three friends-all on subload cheapies , how great they were back then . used the facing 'club confiuration; which was nice and as it was a trident not much deck angle on take off and climb. One friend was then a BOAGC 707 co-pilot and as such not a fan of anything BEA and certainly not a fan of tridents with their assorted oddities compared to his very conventional 707. For four people though it really was a very nice way to travel .
I also flew in the front row rear facing seats on an American Eagle ATR San -Juan to Antigua I think me on my own facing two very large Antiguan ladies who were charming and spent most of the time complaining about the Hispanioc AE crews improper American English which in their eyes did not belong in the Eastern Caribbean .
I have a feeling I experiences the reverse seating another time, probably a trident again but wondering if it might have been a CSA IL62 ? which took me LHR to Prague in 1974

Gordomac
16th Feb 2021, 10:16
thegypsy; Trident seating arrangements could include the flight-deck, I guess and therefore, yes, we had FE's on the NE Trident 1E. We were absorbed into the BOAC/BEA deal and initially formed into BARD. FE's went to BOAC, left for better things (like you) or retired. Us pure p2's were given marching orders to Heston for SPO training and a bunch of BEA P3's joined us as SPO's. The thought of splitting my hours between the panel & p2 seat plus a few other things made be bail out double quick too. Missed facing the popsies on turnround though.

Cymmon
2nd Mar 2021, 08:28
British Airways BAe 1-11-400 from Manchester to Hamburg via Birmingham had rearward seats.

condor17
3rd Mar 2021, 16:53
Flash , as always late on parade .
By the time I got in [1973] ...
T1s were 109Y . 'Tho there's a small doubt that the 109Y [ up from 100Y ] came in with Shuttle , Jan '75.
T2s 104Y or on T/R converted to 92Y and 8F .
T3s , [not on them in '73] , but heard they were 140Y . Later shuttle a/c were 147Y .
From midships galley to emrg. exit , were rear facing seats . Apols if told before ..
There 'n back ATH , T2 , P3 on return into strong headwind . Went for an extended stretch . Front galley V. busy 1 lass doing drinks , another kneeling reaching meal trays out from container , Purser plonking hot inserts on trays . Kneeler then to run them out to economy pax in the rear .
I was obviously in the way if I did nothing , so passed trays up from container .. Promoted to running them out down the back !
Kneeler lass pats me on the back , sends me out with last 2 trays to the very back row .
Walked forward to see cockpit door open and Skipper 'n P2 smiling . Galley crew looking out smiling . Got to rear facing seats , Yes they were all grinning . Odd I thought .. Got to Galley , turned round and yes , all forward facing pax grinning ... Even Odderer they wern't when I'd walked out .
Lass slaps me on the back again , and bursts out laughing ......... Yes the 1st pat was to stick a gash blank menu onto my back with a plaster ..On it in her bright red lipstick was a large '' L '' .
Indeed I was a learner cabin crew that day . Had 2 years of it in the '80s , along with lots of other redeployed 'Nigels' .

rgds condor .