Vaccine implications on your licence

[Emma Royds]

Just a quick a note to suggest for some due diligence for those considering a COVID vaccine that may not be recognised by the appropriate medical regulator in the country where your non expat flying licence is issued. The worst case scenario could be that the licence(s) that you are depending on could be invalidated.

I am not trying to provoke a vax vs anti vax debate or any other debate for that matter. I merely wish to highlight an issue that could be easily overlooked but is still incredibly important and especially so with such volatility in the industry. Take time to read the relevant small print to ensure that the vaccine you choose, will be compatible with all the flying licences you may wish/have to use outside of the Middle East.

[Flying Clog]

Or you simply don't tell whichever aviation regulator is being a stick in the mud. It's not rocket surgery.

[Evots]

The reality is fleet are threatening us.

They will say they aren't but we know they are, because the order from above is everyone will be vaccinated, those who chose not to will be eliminated.

If you in fleet choose not to help implement this vaccine mandate you will be eliminated also.

EK plan going forward is to announce to the world they are the first airline with all frontline staff vaccinated. Fly with us, we are safe. It will be all over their press releases. The reality that they have been vaccinated with something not approved in the west will be completely irrelevant.

Anyone standing in the way of the implementation of this plan will be eliminated.

[Flying Clog]

That's all correct Evots. What's your point? Should we be surprised or something?

[14 6]

Being vaccinated does not stop you from getting c19, nor does it prevent you from spreading it.

It merely prepares your body for a proper response should you contract the bug and thereby hopefully stay out of hospital.

How then does an unvaccinated person put a vaccinated person at risk?

What am I missing?

[double_barrel]

A basic understanding of how vaccines work.

[14 6]

Would you be so kind as to educate me or direct me to the source information?

[double_barrel]

Vaccines work by causing the destruction of the disease-causing pathogen by the immune system. In the case of the SARS-COV2 vaccines we don't yet know if vaccination will lead to true sterile immunity, however that would be a reasonable expectation, at least for the target strain. Most vaccines do completely eliminate the pathogen or prevent it ever becoming established, but that has not been formally demonstrated for COVID. But fundamentally, vaccines reduce the chance of the bug becoming established, and reduce the total pathogen load if it does get through, and thus reduce the chance of passing on the bug to a susceptible person. For most pathogens and most people, a vaccinated person cannot pass on the disease at all.

Thus a vaccinated crew - and groundstaff - would be beneficial for both the company and pax, although I suspect for unvaccinated pax, the biggest risk is from unvaccinated fellow passengers. I strongly suspect that very soon vaccination will be required to fly.

[Flying Clog]

Succcint explanation double_barrel.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Every year some take Flu Vaccine, Hepatitis (TwinRix) , Yellow Fever... DtaP, BCG etc.

I don't recall ever asking the nurse or doctor which brand Pharma is accepted by which Licensing Authority.

Personally, the chance of catching it and having the long term implications should serious symptoms develop which could revoke my license seems to weigh towards the riskier approach.

​​​​​​Your body, your call. I don't think anyone should be forced, but just make informed decisions balancing risks and benefits.

[14 6]

Thanks DB, I just wish it was that simple. Your first paragraph reads like a “copy and paste” and it all sounds plausible, unfortunately with just a little research one would find vastly opposing opinions. These differing opinions are by scientists and doctors and not by pilots/taxi drivers/you cousin’s aunt/the neighbour’s gardener, so it is kind of confusing.

The other big problem is the “we just don’t know yet” facet which you have also mentioned.

I agree with MW, it is a personal choice to make on the best info you have and what poses the greatest risk. Not an easy decision.

[double_barrel]

Thanks, I guess I should be flattered, that was copy and paste straight from my brain. I have been an immuno-geneticist for 20 years. Nothing I said is even slightly controversial, although it is simplified. Of course a little 'research' (ie googling) will find plenty of nonsense.

The absolutely fundamental misunderstanding in your original post was that vaccines don't impact the pathogen, just the disease process. That is totally wrong. I would love to see some research showing anything different (actually there are some very rare exceptions, but not relevant here). Almost all vaccines work by priming the immune system to detect and eliminate a disease-causing organism (or toxin).

[Turbokite]

Sad state of affairs, it was a classic bait and switch.

Now that most people do not want the Chinese Vax they have resorted to threats.

Even sadder that you will have to sign stuff to indemnify them if the vaccine reacts badly to your body, yet it wasn't a personal choice

[sandsakkie]

Double-barrel since you are a immuno-geneticist, can you explain to us simple folk what Antibody-dependent enhancement is? I understand that it is a risk with coronavirus vaccines.

[Murrenfan]

“I don't recall ever asking the nurse or doctor which brand Pharma is accepted by which Licensing Authority.”


Absolutely correct. I took the chinese version couple weeks ago, vaccination card does not mention what type was given to you.

[14 6]

double_barrel

Wow, a 20 year immuno-geneticist hanging around a pilot-trash-talking forum.....a breath of fresh air! Welcome!

Jokes aside, thanks for your input, we need a lot more conversation regarding this topic. We as pilots are trained to develop a healthy sense of suspicion and with all the opinions being pushed (all by experts) the red lights for me are flashing everywhere. We have been lied to too many times and when someone constantly tries to convince me to do something (2-3 emails per day), I get nervous. Whether it is the call from the “investment guy”, the used car salesman, free loan guy, the forex ponzi guy, the health product guy.......list goes on.....when it gets pushed so hard, I start wondering how much has to do with financial gain as opposed to my well-being. How many of you have been lying awake in an US hotel room, staring at the infomercials @ 3am? First they push a certain drug and the very next advertisement is from a law firm who will help you sue if you had been disabled by the drug that was pushed 2 years ago. That same drug 2 years ago was approved and the answer to all your problems. Have a listen at the end when they talk so fast about the side-effects......heart failure, sudden death, all other sorts of dysfunctions....I kid you not!

You mention the research and that for me is probably the biggest bone of contention. How much time has been spent on these new technology vaccines? Do we really have an idea about the long term consequences? Everything seems too rushed! Once that needle goes into your arm, it can not be reversed and as mentioned you have to sign an indemnity form! You have to admit, for a non-immuno-geneticist this might be too much to compute. Sounds like blind faith to me, maybe, I don’t know?

Regarding my initial assumption and question, I have started to notice people thinking that once vaccinated, normal life will return, this jab will fix all. I think there lies a big danger in that attitude, but it’s another subject. If I understand you correctly this vax issue can be split into 2 facets. Firstly, it will prep you for a real infection and therefore you should not be that scared of un-vaxed people as your immune system will deal with the problem swiftly. Secondly, and this is the point I missed, is that although a vaxed person can still, possibly spread the virus, the chances become less because your primed immune system has been attacking the virus from the get go.

Anyway, any input appreciated!

[Landflap]

Double B; Are you SURE that the vaccine under debate works in the same manner as all other vaccines ? ......Sure ? Promise ?.....

[Fuel-Off]

For what it's worth, AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine has just been approved by the DHA. Hopefully that is another option that will be made available to us.

[double_barrel]

Landflap

Depends what yo mean by 'works'!

With the respect to the misinformation posted above, yes, all 'work' by potentiating a host immune response that targets the SAR-COV2 virus. I am sure. I promise.

Of course some achieve that work by 'working' in a different way. Some are very traditional vaccines based on inactivated virus, others use novel mRNA methods, and there are at least 2 technologies that fit somewhere in between along that spectrum. But all target the virus. I don't know of any that target the COVID-19 disease process - although that is not impossible and someone may well be working on it. Certainly immune modulation is a route for therapy.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Even sadder that you will have to sign stuff to indemnify them if the vaccine reacts badly to your body, yet it wasn't a personal choice​​​​​​

I think you'll find that whether it's Pfizer/Sinopharm/Astra Zeneca you will probably need to sign a waiver.

Some governments have an insurance scheme with a payout should you have adverse reactions - e.g. Singapore. Someone will have to pay for this/money will come from somewhere.

​​​​​​https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-pfizer-vaccine-legal-indemnity-safety-ministers-b1765124.html

​​​​​​https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid-19-integrated-shield-plans-cover-vaccine-hospitalisation-14036592

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/askst-should-we-be-worried-about-anaphylaxis-or-the-other-side-effects-of-the-covid-19

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/covid-19-vaccination-moh-provide-financial-assistance-people-affected-serious-side-effects

I'm not promoting Sinopharm - but just from a layman's perspective it's the more traditional inactivated virus - perhaps Analog whereas the mRNA ones are specific T-Cell - Digital. The AstraZeneca one is using a chimpanzee/gorilla virus as the vehicle of delivery. I think the UK health minister mentioned for the different strains there are variants it'll be like tweaking it as if "installing a wing mirror on your car".

The Sinopharm is probably the whole car analogy. Which is better, higher efficacy? Maybe double-barrel can espouse some of his wisdom here.

As long as any vaccine can prevent me from falling seriously ill with the symptoms, I don't really mind which one( good enough - not perfect). The serious symptoms are the stuff that kill you.

All vaccines or drugs, have side effects - kidney damage etc. Just need to weigh the risks versus benefits of taking or not taking them.

Sorry layman understanding.

[double_barrel]

14 6

I'm also a (very) amateur pilot. Although I have no idea how I found myself n the Middle East section of PPrune!

I am not sure that I do entirely understand your reluctance to accept what the experts are telling you. I could perhaps understand it if the recommendation was in the face of some trivial inconvenience, but this advice is in the face of an economy-wrecking, people-killing pandemic. When I step on a commercial aircraft, I trust that appropriate experts have ensured that it is fit to fly and that an appropriately qualified crew are sitting at the front, even though this may be the first time they have met each other or been on board this particular aircraft.

It is certainly possible (probable) that each of the vaccines will have some very rare adverse effects on some people, just like some aircraft very rarely fall out of the sky. But I do not see any way that there can be some mysterious long-term devastating consequence from some of the new technologies such as mRNA. The concept has been around for decades and we understand pretty well how it works. The other vaccines are bog standard in their methods. Personally, I would take any of the vaccines in a heartbeat if it was offered to me.

There are some interesting theoretical population level 'risks' that are a bit harder to explain. All viruses mutate very easily, and a lot of weakly immune people can select for resistant mutants. That's why it is so important to get as many people effectively vaccinated as fast as possible. If we imagine we can hide behind a wall in our own little vaccinated country, we would actually be constantly exposed to a soup of variants from outside that will eventually break through. If anything ever did, this needs global cooperation to fix.

[ClassCbird]

Can the Einsteins on here please show us the data from the Sinopharm trials? Last i heard was Sinopharm refused to publish any public data on their trials. If that is not enough to make people question the safety and efficacy in this modern medical world, then i don't know what is!

[custardpsc]

double_barrel

That's a really interesting point about selection for resistance. Thank you. Wow. Scary. So this is kind of a second derivate problem. If you don't strengthen immunity in everyone simultaneously then you start selecting for resistance and the whole thing starts over again with a second need for a new vaccine and a whole new set of vaccinations against the mutation for everyone. I think what you just said was analagous to the whole lockdown thing. If you immunised everyone overnight then there would be no transmission and no selection/amplification of mutants. If you immunise half the population, the second half remains vulnerable, prone to mutation, and thus still the first half remains vulnerable, with no vaccine ready for the mutant strain. Can I ask, as a generality, whether the mechanisms invoved in vaccination produce some immunity to mutant strains ? I know there isn't a straightforward answer because mutants are unpredictable but is there any sort of normal distribution about the answer or just unpredictable?

[double_barrel]

ClassCbird

I would not trust a vaccine that could not show transparent and high quality trials data which had been examined and approved by an effective regulator. That would be the equivalent of flying with certain Nigerian low cost airlines that are not approved to operate in Europe - probably OK, but not a risk I need to take.

[rcsa]

double_barrel

If everyone in the world stayed at home for a month, (including those who are infected) the virus would also die out. But that would require CCP levels of population management, and it ain't gonna happen. No, what is needed is a medical treatment that reduces the effect of the virus, which in turn would reduce hospitalisations/ long COVID / deaths. Sadly the much-vaunted monoclonal antibody treatment seems not to work against the new variants, so that's still away away. Vaccines actually should come later, once the illness can be treated effectively.

[14 6]

ClassCbird

I agree with you. The Wikipedia on BBIBP-CorV/Sinopharm reads like a Stephen King horror story, especially the Controversies section. Yes, I just googled it, but what else can we do?

[14 6]

rcsa

Apparently there is such a medicine, but I am not dumb enough to discuss it on this forum. Anecdotal evidence exists and court orders obtained will now allow doctors to start treatment with it. Early days, but let’s see what happens.

[14 6]

double_barrel

That is just the thing, over the last 12 months I have listened to numerous interviews with credible scientists, researchers and doctors warning us of the dangers and flaws associated with vaccines, especially the new ones. All the interviews started with a long list of credentials and qualifications of each speaker, so honestly, as a layman I don’t know what to believe anymore.

[double_barrel]

14 6

I strongly disagree. Treatment will never defeat it, but it will keep big pharma raking in the money. The only solution is to go after the virus not disease. That is how successful countries kept their deaths down.

[14 6]

From what I hear that is exactly what this medicine does, kills the virus. Enough said......

[double_barrel]

But doesn't prevent its spread! You would have to allow everyone on the planet to get infected and treated. Vaccination combined with tracking and tracing is the only way to eliminate the disease.

[rcsa]

I know there are colossal epidemiological and biochemical differences, but I would observe that twenty years ago another virus, HIV, had an almost 100% fatality rate. Now, managed with a relatively cheap daily anti-retroviral medication, most HIV patients lead long and healthy lives, and are mostly/largely non-infectious. There is still no vaccine for HIV.

Don't shout at me - I know they are totally different beasts. But HIV medication shows that medical science can come up with a compound that drastically reduces the impact of a virus.

Vaccination, treatment, acquired immunity - they all play their part.

[Check Airman]

custardpsc

Your understanding is correct. The longer we stay unvaccinated, the more chances we have for the virus to mutate its way out of the vaccine. If the global population is only partially vaccinated, that puts immense selective pressure on the virus to develop into a strain that is "resistant" to the vaccine.

The sooner we get these vaccines, the better our chances of getting past COVID19.

[Check Airman]

custardpsc

We won't know until we see the specific mutation. Think of the virus as having a lock (spike protein), and your immune system has to find a key (antibodies). What the vaccine has done is given your immune system a head start in finding the correct key. A mutation in the virus can change any number of things. If the mutation changes the lock on the virus, the key that the vaccine delivered may become less effective if shape of the lock changes significantly. The combinations are practically endless.

[Check Airman]

14 6

This is a fair point. I'll say this though, there will always be a few scientists that will go against the grain. Sometimes, that's useful, but not usually. What you need to see is the consensus opinion of the experts in that particular field. This is a new disease, and as with all scientific endeavours, opinions change as understanding grows. So sure, one or two people may be expressing views contrary to the consensus, but usually you'll find that their views are based on poor quality data from a single study. I'm betting that the 99% are right, and the 1% are wrong. That's been proven over and over again with this pandemic (man-made virus, hydroxychloroquine, inverrectin).

[double_barrel]

14 6

To be perfectly honest, I doubt that you have seen comments like that from credible people who are aware of the state of the art. I agree that it's a potential problem that if you are directly involved in the current state-of-the-art, you tend to focus on the benefits of your pet project, but there are plenty of very knowledgable people who understand the principles but have no dog in the fight. For a start, anyone who is described only as a Dr, surgeon etc can be discounted if they stray out of straightforward clinical matters. I seem to remember a bunch of mad medics claiming that hyrdroxychloroquin was a certain cure for COVID and that we were being lied to for political reasons! That was disgraceful behaviour by people who I presume really are medics.

It is a simple fact that vaccines in general have had massive beneficial impact - they are one of the 3 or 4 most important medical developments that have transformed our lives. That really is indisputable, the anti-vax movement is criminally stupid and/or irresponsible. Sure, there are legitimate questions about details of new methods and the necessary risk/benefit equation, and we can and should be able to discuss them openly. In fact, that is exactly what the various national approval bodies attempt to do. But the noise of nonsense out there with as much credibility as the flat earthers or moon landing deniers are doing huge damage.

[Landflap]

DB; Thanks. "Works" was the term you used. Not me.
14 6 : On side throughout. I and others here, and many others outside of this site have simply doubted the numbers & method of delivery of all the info. we have not taken a specific view but have expressed doubt. We have been subjected to much vitreol and even banned although the latter, a warning device for method of articulation rather than freedom of speech.Possibly. I remain very sceptical and very wary and more inclined to look at cold hard evidence. Not getting any of it convincing enough for me to make an action decision. But that is what we professional pilots (site aimed at us) do before we,for example, disengage, stuff the nose down, decompress and head for the nearest suitable.

I am inclined to disengage, stuff the nose down, de-distress and head for the nearest suitable bar ! Oh, NWO won't let me.

[Marcellus Wallace]

By all means do your own study and make an informed decision based on facts. Never has an introduction of vaccines received this much "noise".

For years, science has proved beyond doubt the risk/benefit arguments for or against vaccination. Sure science has stuffed up along the way but for humankind it has done tremendous good.

This time round - it's every grandma and auntie's WhatsApp/Tik Tok/YouTube Video that has muddied the field. So much so mainstream media needs to dedicate a page just to debunk the myths and present the facts. Information overload or social media has really worked against Public Health policies. Not forgetting some World Leaders, if you call them that piling on to the misinformation - only takes a minute to do a deep cleansing.

Influencers or anyone with a voice doing a disservice whilst publishing half baked facts and distorting the facts to fit a narrative. Prostate surgeons sending viral tweets how the number of excess deaths are a mistake.

National pride working at finger pointing, trumpet sounding rather than working together to solve this for humanity.

National pride preventing acceptance of vaccines from an "enemy state" because of border disputes.

It would certainly be embarrassing to LAND ASAP based on half investigated rumour about "smoke" in the cabin.

[aussiefarmer]

We need a vaccine to inoculate people against anti-vaxxer :mad:. (In fact we have one; it’s called scientific literacy. But some people simply refuse to take the jab.)

[14 6]

14 6
But the noise of nonsense out there with as much credibility as the flat earthers or moon landing deniers are doing huge damage.

Something has been bothering me about you and I think you have just showed your hand.

[Check Airman]

aussiefarmer
:D
I appreciate that not everyone can be an immunologist, but to take a stance based on the word of somebody on YouTube who has no background whatsoever in the field is mind boggling in its stupidity.

[nomorecatering]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about regarding vaccines.

Some people will get the vaccine and die. I'm told that people do die occasionally from lots of different vaccines very year. A small number. Some also react badly to common medications. Some people simply drop dead for no biological reason who are otherwise fit and healthy.

The irony of the argument was illustrated by a neighbor recently. Picture this, a male, early 50's, weight 140+kg, a pack a day smoker, drinks massively, partakes in waccy tobaccy daily ( other substances), diet consists of takeaway food and nothing else, never exercises. Won't get the vaccine because he is "worried about it's effect my health".

I think people are getting too caught up in this saga and a little perspective is required.

[Emma Royds]

The purpose of the thread was not to create a vax versus anti vax debate but rather to highlight the possibility that some vaccines may not be compatible with some flying licences. I have yet to encounter a colleague that refuses to be vaccinated but I have encountered many that are wary about vaccines which are not recognised in their own home country and have elements of their development and testing shrouded in secrecy.

[aussiefarmer]

Honest question: is there any current vaccine (not covid) that renders your class 1 invalid anywhere in the world?

[greenedgejet]

aussiefarmer

In the past, yes, A certain Europe wide H1N1 2009 Swine Flu vaccine did affect some people with side effect of Narcolepsy. That stops operation of most machinery.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/history/narcolepsy-flu.html

[greenedgejet]

double_barrel

Preventative treatment can affect spread. For example inexpensive Ivermectin has been used widely as a prophylactic and for treatment outside of Western nations to good effect:

https://swprs.org/who-preliminary-review-confirms-ivermectin-effectiveness/

Immunity can be increased by vaccines but also naturally as we are seeing in Swedish population (particularly Stockholm). In Spring 2020 they had 500 "cases" (RT PCR positives) per day, now around 7000. However mortality rate is not worse - if anything less than the previous disaster in the care homes (a la NYC, UK, Italy). Anti body testing has revealed increase from 15% in Spring to 40% Jan2021.

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/smittskydd-beredskap/utbrott/aktuella-utbrott/covid-19/statistik-och-analyser/antalet-testade-for-covid-19/

https://news.ki.se/immunity-to-covid-19-is-probably-higher-than-tests-have-shown

This is in part due to following 2019 WHO pandemic guidelines instead of complete national lockdowns and masking up healthy. There is evidence that Lockdowns reduce immunity (lowering Vitamin D and exercise for example) and increase spread in confined spaces - compare Peru with Brazil or South Dakota with N Dakota and EuroMOMO data for EU and UK.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13484

On vaccine safety, main players Phase 3 trials have been published:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2035389#.YB67jKweLxY.twitter

Whilst that should reassure many, they have been released under emergency regulation not the normal FDA like process. Some will not report on their trials until 2023.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/04/peter-doshi-pfizer-and-modernas-95-effective-vaccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/

We would do well to remember most folk who have concerns about novel vaccines are NOT Anti-vax, Flat_Earthers, or climate change deniers. Neither do they hold extreme views. They are just concerned human beings who took a Yellow Fever shot every 10 years (now once for life https://www.who.int/ith/updates/20160727/en/) , Flu jabs every year. They seek transparency in a world that is more confusing that the "goode olde days" of the Cold War but see the dumbing down in the media and polarisation of society, the destruction of jobs and economy, the massive debts from response to this crisis as bad for everybody, especially the future for the least physically affected by SARS-CoV2, their kids.

Meanwhile, the WHO has recommended against forced Vaccine Passports: https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/99/2/20-280701-ab/en/

[Marcellus Wallace]

Ivermectin might prevent Covid Mortality - the verdict is not resounding yet. Great for the general population, but for an aviator to have severe disease/symptoms and get Ivermectin and survive with long term damage to lungs and heart would probably cause a loss of license. Could you risk that?

As for masking, lockdown or not, the following chart paints a grim picture of excess mortality. True there could well have been other reasons for the excess deaths in 2020 - just run the same chart with countries that have strict masking, border closures and stricter measures(NZ, ROK, Taiwan) and do a comparison. You can draw some conclusions. Just a comparison of Sweden and other Nordic countries of similar population but applied other measures lockdowns etc.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1399/screenshot_2021_02_08_at_21_52_34_c3b57c9ed415999b7b407be356 ebc16e561221c1.png

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/excess-mortality-raw-death-count?tab=chart&stackMode=absolute&time=earliest..2021-01-03&country=~SWE&region=World

First spike could well have been all the care home deaths but the 2nd end of year spike, unless they repeated their mistakes. You can paint a similar picture for Italy as well - first spike the terrible toll from Lombardy but another spike at the end of the year, similar in the USA, Belgium, Netherlands, England and Wales. Czech Republic went for a strict masking policy at the beginning of the pandemic - cases were kept low then the summer brought about relaxed masking , the famous party on the Charles Bridge to celebrate - populist government yielding to unmask and you can see the spike at the end of the year.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1389/screenshot_2021_02_08_at_22_05_07_3446493760b9196b651bab8cbc 1f1531daa76d26.png

Vaccinate not because of a particular brand etc. Just use what is available as there's a shortage. Might not be the best but good enough. AstraZeneca is available as well now in Dubai but there won't be enough.

I would love my colleagues who have "left the business" to return. Possibly the quickest way out of this pandemic and for Aviation to revive is for herd immunity through vaccination. Other means may be the perfect solution but will probably result in prolonging job losses, more lockdowns, half vaccinated, more strains to emerge, extended damage to economies, debts - and indeed future of our kids as well.

[jimmyg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCIg3YIN9-s

[14 6]

This is exactly what I am talking about!

[double_barrel]

Painful. I'm doing my best but to stick with it, so far it's jumbled mix of fragments of very well known stuff spun to make him sound clever and 'subversive'. My favourite quote so far "Dr Fauci won't talk about interferon" !

He also claims to have invented email and a magical system for understanding biological interaction which seems to be bog standard, and very limited, text mining.

And the live chat shows no-one paying any attention to what he is actually saying.

Good grief, the 1st question he gets is "We know the full genome. How it is regulated via the elite one is still becoming clear" To which he replies "exactly" and then rabbits on with trivial and confused truisms as if they are great revelations. I think this is wicked stuff.

Next question "Can the virus through the vaccine be passed from human to human". He has been talking about mRNA vaccines. The answer is absolutely NO for mRNA vaccines!! He has just tried to explain that! But instead of answering this question, he blithers on saying we pass vaccines between ourselves all the time, and throws confused nonsense. This is really, really wicked.

Next Q about "vax shedding"! Good grief! That is exactly the problem with the old vaccines he said were great, it is impossible with mRNA vaccines. Does he say that ? No. He blithers on about it being a concern and scientists keeping it a secret.

OK, his presentation was mostly confused and trite, the way he is working the questions to appear to support nonsense is deeply troubling.

[14 6]

Whatever!

This is supposed to be a guy with 4 degrees from MIT and you are some anonymous bug-specialist lurking around on a pilot rumour site........can you see my dilemma?

Everyone these days are some kind of a vaccine expert with all sorts of degrees and differing opinions.......and me, pilot........I am sitting on the sideline, head going left and right like I am watching a tennis match........and that is my big problem with this whole lot!

[double_barrel]

So give me a specific to drill down into?

How about the questions on "vax shedding" or "Can the virus through the vaccine be passed from human to human".

Look at his answer to those questions. Then look at what he actually says when he is explaining mRNA vaccines in the body of his presentation. Now tel me there is not a complete, 180 degree discrepancy between the facts as HE himself portrays them, and the way he responds to those questions.

[14 6]

And why should I believe your explanation as opposed to his? By the way, it’s not only Shiva, there are many others.

What I suggest you do, is to contact MIT and report him for spreading fake news whilst bragging about his 4 degrees. Good grief, I thought us pilots can talk crap by using big words and sounding all clever, but you people take the cake.

[double_barrel]

Don't believe my explanation. Believe his. He is more-or-less correct when he describes how mRNA vaccines work and the advantages they have over the old fashioned vaccines based on live, attenuated virus. He explains that no whole virus is used. He explains that mRNA is taken up by ribosomes which manufacture antigen. He says there is no actual virus associated with the mRNA vaccine. Therefore "vax shedding" is completely impossible with mRNA vaccines. He obviously knows that. Why does he not say that? I suspect because he is focused on winding-up a very specific audience.


BTW. There have been some tragic deaths caused by "vax shedding" from the polio vaccination. The polio vaccine has made a fantastic contribution to human health and we are on the brink of completely eliminating the disease through vaccination, but the risks are not quite zero. mRNA vaccines eliminate that category of risks.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Suggest if there is so much doubt about the mRNA vaccine, stick to the traditional weakened/attenuated type of vaccine. Edward Jenner used it and the technology is still being used.

I love his analogy about playing in dirt when he was young - perhaps these guys should go work at the morgue or ICU without PPE and "roll around" in the dirt. They sure could need some helping hands.

Speak to your colleagues, some have caught COVID-19 - the ones who've had more than mild symptoms. Ask them how it was. There are more out there these days.

[double_barrel]

Good plan. And I suggest that you fliers stick to traditional navigation with sextant and dead reckoning. Ernest Gann used it, and the technology is still being used.

Vaccines based on live virus carry a particular set of risks that mRNA (and other) vaccines completely eliminate. Sure they MAY introduce other risks, like modern nav systems raise the risk of collision as everyone flies the same perfect line between two points. But on the whole, I will take the overall improved performance.

[Marcellus Wallace]

I'm pretty convinced about the safety, risks versus benefits. I'll take whatever is available.

We are indeed fortunate here to get the vaccine FREE. You can even choose which particular type if you're willing to wait it out.

Lot's of frontliners working in ICU's dealing with this dreaded disease don't even have that privilege.

If you have a particular license and your CAA has prohibited X brand/type of vaccine then you don't have a choice I suppose. Otherwise for the rest of us it's a no brainer.

[DuneMentat]

I took the first one available to me which happened to be Sinopharm and in 6-8 months time I can get a booster from one of the other, hopefully either Moderna or Pfizer and get the added benefit of them.

[14 6]

How can you or I be sure this guy is a fake? Aren’t these nutty scientists supposed to be rambling on about something without making sense? (joke)

MIT should come out and discredit him, after all he is bringing their good reputation into doubt if he is faking it like you suggest.

I think you should follow your own good advice and talk about aviation rather than calling out fakers in a field you have no knowledge of.

[aussiefarmer]

You could have studied at Harvard and still be wrong. I don’t understand your point.

There’s always someone in every discipline that goes against the general consensus. There are scientists that think climate change is not real. That does not mean they are right.

There are very experienced pilots licensed by EASA who think that flying a twin with one engine out for 3 hrs over continental europe is acceptable. That doesn’t mean they were right.

Scientific studies are peer-reviewed and have to be verifiable by others to be considered valid or insightful. That’s what gives science credibility, not which university the scientist carried his studies at.

[14 6]

aussiefarmer

My point is quite simple and you have given it in your own last paragraph. This guy should be peer reviewed by for instance other MIT qualified scientists. In my view, nobody on PPRUNE is in a position to do that. As I have said before, it is not just him, there are many doctors and scientists voicing their concerns and I as a layman have difficulty in knowing what to believe.

A point that stands out to me is that all of them agree on the complexity of the human immune system. Nobody at this stage really have an idea what the long term effects of the new mRNA vaccines will be. It reminds me of the documentary I watched on the nuclear testing in the Pacific and how shocked the scientists were when the thing they triggered, yielded a vastly greater boom than expected. I get the impression that these vaccines were rushed through and it is evident today just by reading the mainstream media. Problems with supply, distribution, efficacy etc.

So where does this leave us? On the one hand, we have doctors and scientists warning us to think carefully about getting vaccinated and on the other side companies pushing us very hard to get the jab. What is the age old saying? Follow the money maybe?

About your one engine over continental Europe analogy.......yes, overflying a perfectly suitable airport with only one engine remaining is not wise, but should Europe be fogged in/snowed in/45 knot cross wind.....and you are in a machine with a 207 min capability, maybe it is not such a bad idea to go look for somewhere better to land? There are always many more considerations.

[14 6]

Neektu

No disrespect intended, but you watching the video to the end and making notes does not really help me.

Anyway, I think I have said enough now, back to aviation it is 👍🏻

[double_barrel]

it is not just him, there are many doctors and scientists voicing their concerns and I as a layman have difficulty in knowing what to believe.

I don't think there are many genuine doctors and scientists voicing their concerns. And, to be honest, you as an intelligent layman should not have difficulty in this particular case. It seems very clear that he is sewing confusion and misinformation, just look at the glaring internal inconsistencies in that video, some of which I have flagged. You don't need to know anything except what he tells you, just critically examine the content.

[White Knight]

About your one engine over continental Europe analogy.......yes, overflying a perfectly suitable airport with only one engine remaining is not wise, but should Europe be fogged in/snowed in/45 knot cross wind.

It happened, and there wasn't a fog/snow/crosswind problem! Look up the Smartwings 737 incident in August 2019! And no, the whole of Europe will not be out due to weather at the same time so that's a pretty daft statement!

[Landflap]

146; I have to applaud your views. Very balanced and seeking justification before decision. Just what we Prof pilots were selected for, trained for and checked on, continuously throughout our careers. You are far from alone in taking a step back & considering a wider view. The daily dross I am fed with from so-called Governments & 'experts' is wholly unconvincing & when I hear of Government Ministers handing out multi millions of tax-payers money to fellow ex-pub landlord mates (just for starters) leaves me very unsympathetic to the 'no brainers' who who just line up, roll up the sleeve and take the jab because big bro said so .

Sorry Emma. I know you did not want to promote a vax/no vax debate, so I'll stop myself there. I just wanted to add support to 146 who sounds very cool -headed indeed.

[Gordomac]

Great post Marcellus. I think LF was taking a poke at a DM article where the headline grab was "No jab, No job...it's a no brainer " from a hitherto respected columnist who turned around from balanced reporting to suggesting that he would crawl on his "naked belly" to get the jab in order to restore his rights to get back to the pub ! Ok, I hear you all say " it's the DM for C s sake."..

The Queen would say what she said.............wouldn't she (?)...........Journalistic no brainer there too.

Delighted that you take an informed view and decide.. Many of us are doing the same. We resist the patronising , head-line grabbing dross that faces us every day and give a Churchillian salute to the equally mindless Bully Boys who threaten with vitreol & intended violence if we meet in the street ! I Cheer the right and freedom to decide for ourselves. I Totally respect your views and rights. I Simply ask for similar balance.

[Landflap]

Marcellus ; Your post that GM was referring to has disappeared. Makes his post above look a bit odd.

GM tells me on our week-end call that he has now been denied, even a view of Jetblast having previously been warned off to stay away from the Corona Virus thread of the same forum .

Too many toes stepped on methinks.

[fatbus]

Is there any CAA that has restricted any of the vaccines?

[Emma Royds]

The FAA appears at this stage to only permit licence holders to take either Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna or Johnson & Johnson.

Landflap - No apology needed whatsoever. :ok:

[Marcellus Wallace]

All the best fellas. You're all intelligent individuals.

No need for me to rehash articles available on public domain. Too much diarrhoea.

Just don't take too long to decide. Cheers.

Really sad reading of the situation in the Czech Republic. Early success with masks etc. all gone to waste...this quote just sums up some of the discussions going on:

The Czech media, he said, has contributed to some of the confusion earlier in the pandemic. "There's often this logic of 'for and against.' So if you have a guest who says face masks are useful, let's also have a guest who says they are not. And if you have a guest who says coronavirus is dangerous, you also need to invite someone who says it's not dangerous and most people are fine."
This has distorted reality, Kulveit believes. "Of course there are debates going on in the expert circles, but if you look at the field of epidemiology, some 95% of experts agree on the consensus and then you have perhaps 5% who dissent, but in the media, this is presented as 50:50, and then on social media, it could become 20 - 80 " he added.

Sorry - perhaps not relevant to the topic.

[Fuel-Off]

The FAA appears at this stage to only permit licence holders to take either Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna or Johnson & Johnson

Well duh. Who'd have thought the US aviation regulator would approve the only vaccines that are approved by the US drug regulator.

[Emma Royds]

Case in point as to why this topic may not be as straight forward as some may think, hence airing it in the first place.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Whilst the FAA may not approve non US vaccines that does not auto imply an FAA licence problem. It may simply mean that you need a dose of the US approved vaccine (in addition to whatever you may have taken in DXB) before exercising the privileges of, in this case, an FAA licence.

[fatbus]

I stand to be corrected , it appears that the only restrictions are country based (48-72 hrs) . An FAA licence holder working for EK does not need to apply FAA restrictions only UAE restriction , which are similar anyways . As more vaccines become approved by the country the CAA of that country will approve . Hence no real implications to any vaccines.

[Murrenfan]

Are there any blood exams out there that can detect what kind of vaccine is in your system? If your CAA back home is such a bully, why do you have to inform them? FFS just take any vaccine available and get yourself a temporary shelter for six months or so until more options accepted in your home country are available if this is the case!

[Emma Royds]

With regards to this topic, there seems to be a number of known unknowns never mind the unknown unknowns that the past year has often generated. With there being little to no job security throughout the ME, it makes sense to try and ensure that your credentials are in order, should the worst happen. Blood tests may not even be required to verify what vaccine you had if personal vaccine data is held electronically and is made accessible to multiple countries and potentially to multiple organisations as well. As aircrew, it would be hard to avoid having to participate in such a system. Despite the concerns regarding personal data protection, it seems that these are being overshadowed in Europe at least by the desire to open up borders. However it still remains to be seen how this will develop.

It’s also not outside the realms of reality that certain counties will require vaccination in lieu of any quarantine period but specific vaccines will only be accepted. The Cypriots have pledged to open their borders for tourists from May but vaccines that are approved by the EMA will only be accepted. Given how cautious Oz and NZ have been throughout the pandemic then I wouldn't be surprised if they only recognise selected vaccines. The TGA in Oz have already remarked to the press that vaccine trial data from China and Russia is rather limited. Will we see Aussies and Kiwis with the ‘wrong’ vaccine still having to sit in a hotel for close for two weeks?

I am sure these potential hurdles will fade into insignificance over time, as the effectiveness of each vaccine becomes apparent. Vaccines from China and Russia may prove to be very effective but determining that will take time to establish. Until that point is reached, I suspect not every country will open its doors to travellers with just any vaccine.

[Gordomac]

Emma, I might be wrong but it appeared to me that the Cyps have opened up for UK tourists as opposed to "all". Saw the Minister's broadcast yesterday. Very specific vaccines will only be accepted. I noted also that while the door has been opened to the Brits as of 1st of May, the UK still will not prevent non-essential travel until, possibly, 16 May. In addition, severe restriction of movement in Cyprus remains until at least March 16. I was stopped twice, yesterday and asked for my Citizen/PR declaration authorising my three hour "essential" movement These too would have to be eased in order to let in the Brits on the Ist May who are not allowed to leave the Uk until the MAY 16 anyway ! All quite farcical . Cops were cute chics who would not accept that I was over 65......made my day......

[Fuel-Off]

From the esteemed medical journal, Newsweek no less! If it were so serious the Danish and Icelandic authorities would have cited particular events pertaining to said blood clots. Nothing from either.