The amount of CPL graduates vs amount of jobs

[Kundry]

The following is most definitely preaching to the choir but since moving up north I've developed a very strong conviction on VET Student Loans I feel like sharing.

Over 1,000 CPL graduates in the 19-20 financial year. Only a handful of jobs up north every year. And yet flight schools keep pushing people to sign up for their courses and people in the cities still recommend signing up to complete your CPL now under the slogan of "get it in the lull so you're ready when it all rebounds". As someone who is up north looking for a job right now, it is honestly disgusting and as predatory as a used car yard.

The vast majority of those 1,000 CPL graduates will never even move up north and stay in the city with their old job because they can't commit (they have family, don't have the money etc) to a move up here. Or they set up a fancy LinkedIn hoping Qantas will pick them up?? This can't have ever been a problem when VSL didn't fund a whole CPL. If you were about to drop $50k on your CPL you would have been well aware of the requirement to move up north and would have been motivated to do it.

[Aussie Bob]

The "move up north" slogan has been perpetuated ever since I was a boy. I know a few who have done it and made it but there must be scores who haven't. There must also be businesses up there who despair at the sheer volume of door knockers. Anyone from up north who can expand on this?

[ysbkpilot]

If someone gets a CPL, and "isn't committed enough" to move up north, what difference does it make to you as someone up north? You have no extra competition for jobs, because they haven't moved there?
If anything, you have less competition for work because of all the instructors in Syd, Melb, Brisbane who are able to build hours instructing.

People pay for things they will never get full value out of. Like buying a ute when you're not a tradie, or buying a house way bigger than you really ned - some people just want the fulfilment of getting a CPL they could never afford to do upfront. Why take that away from people?

And I know of a huge chunk of incredibly talented, hard working pilots who got into the industry through VSL schools, who could never afford to do it out of pocket.

Once you have a family, mortgage, etc - some people can't afford to drop $50k upfront on a CPL. I guess they don't deserve to have a crack at the industry!

[Duck Pilot]

Sadly quite a few new CPL holders who do move up north should never have been issued with a CPL. Quality of training that some schools down south are delivering is somewhat lacking, however that’s been a problem for years.

My advice is to train up north in the real environment with a reputable school, there are still a small number of good schools around who have a good reputation for delivering high quality training outcomes for their students.

[dr dre]

There definitely has to be a change in the transition from education to employment in a pilot’s career. I’ve heard piloting compared to medicine and a whole host of other professions, in terms of education, regulation, responsibilities, professional standards etc. But where it fails is the gap between formal education and regular employment.

Could you imagine a newly graduated doctor being told to go to Katherine and find a job pulling beers in the pub and knock on the door of every medical clinic in town in the hope after pestering one for a few months they get a few days a week of casual GP work? Sure some medicos get their first gig in remote areas but in an established role with clear career progression.

This whole disruption to the industry should be a perfect time for RTOs, employers, unions, government etc to sit down and more tightly define professional training and careers. It should move toward the point where licences issued match expected job demand. You don’t even see this type of thing for pilot employment in most other nations, schools in Europe for example have well defined links with employers.

[Climb150]

Schools in Europe pedal their business as "the only way into Easyjet, RYR etc". Charge an outrageous price for the privilege and then that locks out anyone who went to a non affiliated school.

The Australian system would be fine if we didn't have govt loans for flight training.

[PoppaJo]

l

My advice is to train up north in the real environment with a reputable school, there are still a small number of good schools around who have a good reputation for delivering high quality training outcomes for their students.
This.

Cairns produces 1 or 2 CPLs a year, some years zero. These people are at the front of the queue for any job in the region. Tropics trained is also another plus. They are basically given jobs, they don’t need to go searching, the solid training in this neck of the woods is hard to beat and many connections across operators exist.

If I was doing it again it would be Cairns first, Perth then Darwin. Sally and team in Cairns is hard to beat. It’s not about them being good, you will walk away with better decision making skills and confidence.

Don’t waste your time down South.

[Capt Greenhorn]

If someone gets a CPL, and "isn't committed enough" to move up north, what difference does it make to you as someone up north? You have no extra competition for jobs, because they haven't moved there?
If anything, you have less competition for work because of all the instructors in Syd, Melb, Brisbane who are able to build hours instructing.

People pay for things they will never get full value out of. Like buying a ute when you're not a tradie, or buying a house way bigger than you really ned - some people just want the fulfilment of getting a CPL they could never afford to do upfront. Why take that away from people?

And I know of a huge chunk of incredibly talented, hard working pilots who got into the industry through VSL schools, who could never afford to do it out of pocket.

Once you have a family, mortgage, etc - some people can't afford to drop $50k upfront on a CPL. I guess they don't deserve to have a crack at the industry!


Glad someone had the nads to say it!!!

[dr dre]

The Australian system would be fine if we didn't have govt loans for flight training.

And expect upfront payment in full? No youngster has that amount of money lying around, they’re either going to the bank or the bank of mum and dad if it’s not a government supported education scheme.

If medicine, law, engineering, any other profession, is financed with a small upfront front fee and the rest paid off once working and receiving a regular income then why does Aviation have to be different

[27/09]

And expect upfront payment in full? No youngster has that amount of money lying around, they’re either going to the bank or the bank of mum and dad if it’s not a government supported education scheme.
It was done very successfully in the past paying as you go. Doesn't need to be up front, plus if the schools not up to snuff you're not tied to them via any government loan, you can easily go elsewhere.

If medicine, law, engineering, any other profession, is financed with a small upfront front fee and the rest paid off once working and receiving a regular income then why does Aviation have to be different These other professions don't have training providers aggressively selling the dream at inflated prices.

[Clare Prop]

There has never been a shortage of freshly minted CPLs and the people pushing this pitch are predators. The VET loans have made it easier for these predators to get rich quick, take the money and run and leave a bankrupt school with students and staff left with nothing. It happens over and over again and always will, but with the government loans it is we taxpayers who are funding it. The 20% admin fees alone on 150K would pay for 100 hours of command time instead of...nothing.

Anyone who pays any money at all upfront for flying training is a fool. Those who offer "discounts" for payment in advance are actually getting the student to a) give them an interest free loan that they can't get from a bank because their credit rating is shot and/or b) further lining the pockets of the people at the pinnacle of the ponzi scheme. Unsecured creditors get nothing when the administrators come in.

It is unbelievable that these loans are still being dished out and should be reviewed urgently particularly in the aftermath of Soar, just the latest in a long line. I'm not holding my breath, there must be too many vested interests which is why it carries on. The rest of us who don't want to get involved in mass producing CPLs have to compete with the predators AND subsidise them through our taxes.

[Cessna 180]

I agree it is a ridiculous idea to subsides flight training. As Clare said above, it is us, the taxpayers who are subsidizing it. In fact I used to do my renewal at a place that started doing fee help. I stopped as a tiny protest against it.
This is a tough industry and only those whom are committed will make it, at any level. Regardless of who pays for the training.

As for those arguing that a school leaver or youngster will either be borrowing from Bank of Mum and Dad or someone else anyway, what is wrong with them getting a job or trade elsewhere and saving up? Even if they needed a small personal loan to finish it off. Worked for me and plenty of others I know.
I never paid up front either. Paid after each lesson as I could afford it.

As for people whom are just looking for "the fulfillment of gaining a CPL"? Full credit and encouragement to them. However, let them pay for it themselves just the same as we all do with any hobby.

Comparing an aviation career to medicine is also ridiculous. Whilst there are similarities in discipline and mental attitude that is where it ends.
Anyone with a small amount of common sense, mechanical aptitude and commitment can be a pilot, where as do be a doctor requires very high marks in year twelve and an extended uni degree.

Thence the demand for trained Dr's verses supply is much higher than in the flying world.

I don't think the operators up north despair too much. Whilst I can't comment for last year, prior to that the volume had dropped off.
I think most operators are happy to have a chat with anyone genuinely looking for work. Sure, there are some rude and entitled 'bosses" out there but the same goes for a small minority of job seekers.

[machtuk]

Part of the issue here is that being a pilot in my opinion is not a professional job, more just a trade skill. You don't need any formal qualifications other than be able to read and write to an acceptable level and MONEY, that's it!
Any mug can get a Pilots cert, not any mug can become a Dr! The bottom end of the aviation food chain is littered with 'tradies!

[Andre Meyer]

I'm not against the VET system (heck I even suggested it once). However, just like any good thing, it can be used for bad things as well (i.e. Soar) and obviously the 20% fees involved and the overall cost of things.
At the end of the day, it's funding for someone to pursue something - that's not the problem.
The problem, nowadays, is the individual. People have forgotten how important "aptitude" and "discipline" really are.
I self-funded a few hours years ago whilst working (flying once a week) and very soon realized I am bad at this. Doesn't mean I can't do it but more focus and more time was required (which is hard if you're working full time, not impossible though). The point being - aptitude became very apparent to me then.
Those attributes fall by the way side once "The life of a Pilot" videos on Youtube are watched. No one watches a video entitled "The life of a GP" and go hell yeah sign me up - you can't compare these professions.
The marketing component is an issue because people fall for it hook, line and sinker. They don't see the endless hours of study even after graduation. They don't see the door-to-door knocking up north or even in the big city. They don't see the repeats if you struggle. They don't see the "it is actually going to take you 250 hours instead of 150"
Or maybe they do realize all those things, push ahead and graduate but then reality hits them. The notion of "you've just started" when they've just graduated - this is where discipline fails them (keep going, keep calling, do whatever you can etc). This is the career,

Schools take advantage of students. And it is sad and disappointing to read about.

Years ago (don't know if it still exist) there used to be secondary schools that had Aviation-related subjects you could do as a kid to help solidify the basics prior to training commencing.
It is as though the industry needs something like that combined with an Aptitude course (like what the Airforce does) over several months which includes a real industry look at the pros and cons (i.e. entry level jobs), designed for civilians to determine whether they are really fit to fly.
Not some test - the problem with the test is people can be bad at it but still end up being great Pilots, this is why you need a diverse skills assessment across all attributes comparing the attributes required with the attributes the individual already has both physically and mentally.
At least then after doing that you'd really know whether you're better off watching "The life of a GP" video or not.

[geeup]

We are tradies at best.
Our industry is closer to the used car industry.

[Lapon]

The problem is that the industry has no real incentive or appetite to change anything, heck isin't even Qantas now in the business of churning out fresh CPLs too?

Its not a problem unique to aviation, education is a big business.

Giving a potential student a moment to pause and consider reality would go a long way, perhaps require them to at least self fund a PPL with the commercial licence being the only one accessed via a loan.

[lucille]

The “profession” is being deliberately dumbed down by manufacturers and airlines. They tired of or were jealous of the recently passed golden era of lucky pilots who got paid well, had good lifestyles and job satisfaction.

So they are building ever more automated aircraft, training a while new generation of button pushers and are instituting systems which rely less and less on experience, judgement, airmanship and stick and rudder skills..... all in the name of “safety”.

Sooner or later, all that will be needed is something like a bare CPL who can taxi the aircraft out to the runway and line up. At which point, that aircraft will be remotely controlled from a now repurposed call centre in Bombay.

Salaries will drop to minimum wage.

You may laugh at this dystopian vision. But this is the stark future of aviation, why anyone would want to be an airline pilot these days beggars belief. In the name of safety, no human will be allowed to actually hand fly an aircraft.

So the message to the thousands of bare CPL holders is this - go back to Uni, do a decent STEM based degree and see where that takes you.