Engine fire evacuations

[CJ1234]

Hi folks,
Say you reject the takeoff following an engine fire on the no.1 engine, stop into wind, perform all the necessary drills, fire the extinguisher bottles into the engine nacelles and the fire indications still persist, I presume there would be some anxiety about evacuating passengers on the port side of the aircraft as they'll be evacuating straight towards a burning engine. I wondered if there is a way of ordering an evacuation on the starboard side only, whether this would ever be done in practice and how, ultimately, it is ordered - presumably you can't say "evacuate, evacuate, right side only" because of the obvious confusion between what is left and right in these circumstances?
Have been reading up on fire situations and drills in the little aircraft I fly and wondered how it's done in the airliners.
Cheers folks

[eckhard]

Great question! You are certainly right (correct!) that the words "left" and "right" have caused confusion in the past. Training for Pilots and Cabin Crew underlines the need for precise wording and removal of ambiguity when dealing with stressful situations like evacuations.

When making the evac announcement, the pilot will try to inform the cabin crew of any hazards at any specific door by using the agreed name for that door. Generally, airliner doors are called "One Left", "One Right", "Four Right", "Five Left", etc. and it is common practice to use these names when answering the intercom, so all cabin crew will be totally familiar with that particular terminology. This then means that hearing the words, "left" or "right" over the PA should not pose a risk of ambiguity.

Another technique if briefing a cabin crew member in the flight deck is to ask them to point to the specific side in question. "We would like you to go and inspect the right-hand engine. Please point to it now." They should then be clear about which side they are concerned with as they walk from front to rear in the cabin.

[CJ1234]

Thank you for that eckhard. I wonder, in an ongoing fire situation - is there time to bring a cabin crew member in and brief them? Is there a possibility of saying on the PA "this is your Captain, using right exits only, I say again, using right exits only, evacuate, evacuate" if the cabin crew know what is meant by left and right in those circumstances? Or is there a way, in the evacuation command, to prevent pax from using the port side overwing exits?
I like the asking them to point to the side you're talking about, that makes things absolutely clear. I just wonder, in a situation with a burning engine, if there's time to do that?
Alternatively, is it more important to just get them out of both sides as quickly as possible and not be so fussy?

[Denti]

In a previous airline we had evacuation commands containing a direction. Those were eventually dropped as it apparently confused cabin crew and passengers. It was up to the person opening the emergency exit to decide if it was usable or not, the cabin crew was trained for that and trained to explain it to ABPs (able bodied persons, those picked in a planned emergency landing) how they should decide and how to block the exit if it wasn't usable.

Even in the above situation there might be exits on that side that are usable, say the first door on that side for example, well forward of the fire. And in the end, the idea is to get all persons out of the aircraft as fast as possible.

[tjslice]

I would argue that the most crucial exit not to use in a case like this is the over wing exits. All it would take is a passenger with an itchy trigger finger or a language barrier, and that overwing exit is going to get opened too. I bet that would happen most of the time.

Unfortunately, the biggest reason to specify left or right is probably for when the lawsuits hit the courtroom. It may limit liability if someone is injured or killed going out an exit you said not to use.

[wiggy]

Thank you for that eckhard. I wonder, in an ongoing fire situation - is there time to bring a cabin crew member in and brief them? Is there a possibility of saying on the PA "this is your Captain, using right exits only, I say again, using right exits only, evacuate, evacuate" if the cabin crew know what is meant by left and right in those circumstances? Or is there a way, in the evacuation command, to prevent pax from using the port side overwing exits?
I like the asking them to point to the side you're talking about, that makes things absolutely clear. I just wonder, in a situation with a burning engine, if there's time to do that?
Alternatively, is it more important to just get them out of both sides as quickly as possible and not be so fussy?

Sadly history has shown on several occasions that messing around trying finesse an evacuation can have literally fatal results....

My own (slightly time expired) POV is that if you're dealing with a potential fire it might be seriously risky pulling a cabin crew member out of the cabin and onto the flight deck to have any discussion, especially if they "own" a door - i.e. are responsible for a specific door's operation, which these days with minimal crewing is highly likely to be the case. The reason being if the situation suddenly escalates you could suddenly find you've got a crew member out of position in the flight deck and therefore a potentially unmanned (should that be unpersonned?) door.

FWIW in the event of a rejected take-off our SOP was very definitely for the cabin crew to stay at their doors, primed, ready to evacuate, and to stay there until such time as they were "stood down" by a call from the Flight deck.

If EVAC was needed the SOP PA call was along the lines of "....evacuate, evacuate", and then if relevant a comment such "hazard on the left/right" ..but regardless of any "hazard left/right" call each door operator was still meant to look out of their door window, check the situation at/outside their door and then make the decision as to whether they should open the door or block it and redirect passengers to another exit.

As Denti has alluded to on a widebody the front door, Door 1, can be the best part of a couple of hundred feet from, say Door 5, "down the back" and so the two doors can be in completely different environments, hence it's sensible that the door operator that makes the final decision on opening the door or not.

[8314]

You call the Evac. If you are in a decent outfit you will have proper trained cabin, who are very well able to decide which exit is usable.

[CJ1234]

Excellent, thanks Wiggy - so the best that can be done re the overwing exits is for the cabin crew to brief the pax manning them not to go out of them if there's a fire, i suppose.

[eckhard]

Sorry chaps, I didn’t explain myself very well. The second part of my answer (about pointing to the engine) was not intended to relate to an evacuation but was rather suggesting a generic technique to avoid ambiguity whilst perhaps giving a face-to-face “nits” brief in the air.

I certainly wouldn’t advocate doing that as part of an evacuation! I was merely trying to illustrate a way of avoiding “left/right” mistakes, to be used as appropriate to the situation.

[Del Prado]

You call the Evac. If you are in a decent outfit you will have proper trained cabin, who are very well able to decide which exit is usable.


This.....

I was fortunate enough to spend two days with BA doing their SEP training. The smiley, chatty and incredibly friendly guys and girls there turned in to real monsters when the evac call was made in the sim. You would not argue with them.
Always held cabin crew in the highest regard since then.

[Denti]

Sorry chaps, I didn’t explain myself very well. The second part of my answer (about pointing to the engine) was not intended to relate to an evacuation but was rather suggesting a generic technique to avoid ambiguity whilst perhaps giving a face-to-face “nits” brief in the air.

I certainly wouldn’t advocate doing that as part of an evacuation! I was merely trying to illustrate a way of avoiding “left/right” mistakes, to be used as appropriate to the situation.
Indeed, that is a valid point. It is extremely important, if a side is pointed out in whatever context, to make sure it is the correct one, as a cabin crew looking usually back into the cabin has a different "right" than the guys and gals up front looking into the direction of flight.

In regards to evacuation, as pointed out, one has to be able to trust ones cabin crew as they are the ones at the doors (usually).

[osborne]

CJ1234

I joined this industry 50 years ago and was told on my first day not to use the terms port and starboard.
Until the day I retired I never saw them in company documentation.

[Car RAMROD]

Unfortunately, the biggest reason to specify left or right is probably for when the lawsuits hit the courtroom. It may limit liability if someone is injured or killed going out an exit you said not to use.


Conversely, you nominate one side only- you’ve just removed half of the exits that may be used. People don’t get out in time and die. Big litigation there too.

damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

i am however, in the camp of letting the trained cabin crew make the decision on whether each individual exit is usable or not.
as for overwings where the passengers sit at the exit? The regulator states that a briefing given to the passengers to consider the hazards before opening is deemed acceptable. The airlines cannot (should not) be held at fault for following the rules set out by the regulator.

[ANW]

Report No: 8/1988. Report on the accident to Boeing 737-236, G-BGJL, at Manchester Airport on 22 August 1985

Download report:
8-1988 G-BGJL.pdf (https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/5422efe840f0b61342000277/8-1988_G-BGJL.pdf) (16,923.38 kb)

Report Appendices
To view appendices, click on link below
8/1988 Boeing 737-236, G-BGJL Appendices (https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/5422efe940f0b613460002f1/8-1988_G-BGJL_Append.pdf) (9,249.76 kb)

[easyflyer83]

Cabin crew for 15 years. At the airlines I have worked at there has never been any ambiguity about what is left or what is right. None of this “point to the engine” business, just a simple aircraft left, aircraft right. Regarding engines, many even know what is engine number one and which is number two though admittedly that is risking getting too technical.

In a pre planned emergency, the number one would receive their briefing, usually in the flight deck with all relevant information given. At that point, any anticipated obstacles for any potential evacuation can be given as additional or special instructions.

In an unplanned emergency, the commander might elect to state additional information in addition to the evacuation command but in the stress and the chaos, the fact that it’s not a written command and the fact that it would be given after the word “evacuate”, there is a real risk that the information would be lost or not heard.

However, cabin crew are trained adequately enough to be able to assess outside conditions and to make the call themselves. Indeed, they are better placed than the flight crew to make that call.

Remember also, that circumstances might also dictate the use of the side where the engine fire is even if it’s not ideal. For example, a malfunctioning slide. I would argue that given specific commands not to evacuate on one side of the aircraft might actually be counterproductive as it might take away the ability and confidence of *some* cabin crew to react to the situation before them.

[wiggy]

In a pre planned emergency, the number one would receive their briefing, usually in the flight deck with all relevant information given. At that point, any anticipated obstacles for any potential evacuation can be given as additional or special instructions.

.

All good points ....for the sake of the OP it might be worth mentioning that terms such as a "pre-planned" emergency refer to something like an element of the landing gear being known to be out of position and therefore there's probably time to fly a round, get the senior cabin crew member on to the flight deck and do a formal brief in relatively slow time.

An "unplanned emergency" would be something like a rejected take-off or a multiple engine failure (thinking Hatton Cross, the Hudson ditching) where the fit has hit the shan :}with no time for preparation...

[DaveReidUK]

Say you reject the takeoff following an engine fire on the no.1 engine, stop into wind

By "stop into wind" do you mean stop, if possible, at 90° to the wind?

[eckhard]

Orientation with respect to the wind to minimise fire risk depends on engine location.

Most modern airliners have wing-mounted engines. With a headwind for take-off, any turn towards the fire will help and vice-versa. Yes; 90 degrees would be ideal, but see below comment about surface.

For most biz-jets and older types like the MD-80 with tail-mounted engines, the best orientation is into wind.

For a light single and twin props, the best position in which to stop generally is tail into wind.

It all comes down to where you want the smoke and flames to go with respect to the structure and the exits.

All the above has to take into account the size of the aircraft and the size and nature of the surface. You want plenty of concrete around the final resting-place if possible, to facilitate emergency access, pax dispersal, etc.

[BraceBrace]

I wondered if there is a way of ordering an evacuation on the starboard side only, whether this would ever be done in practice and how

No, never. You handle the engine fire (which is an internal fire) based on instrument indications, but you lack 90% of the big picture outside. You might as well have a "contained" engine fire that is being "attacked" because you shot both bottles on the left side, and your right main gear might be full on fire because the tire exploded instead of deflating, resulting in leaking fluids on hot brakes.... Now you just confused the **** out of your cabin crew as they are likely to see no fire on the left, and a raging fire on the right.

You can give quick info, but you don't take any decision. Cabin has their procedures, they can handle it, they are trained to handle according to the outside "picture".

[FlightDetent]

Identical to the views expressed above by Denit, wiggy, RAM and B.B., all my employers trained the pilots to announce the evacuation and let the cabin crew professionals do the job at stations. And it is no easy task when the day comes and the grim reaper knocks the door. The CBS interview with Doreen Welsh, the (sole) aft flight attendant of Cactus 1549, deserves good attention.

Though everywhere people remembred that "we used to announce the direction but as the understanding developed better, that is no longer advisable". Guess the change came around 1998-2003 timeframe, reasons all the same as posted already.