Using Rank on Retirement

[ORAC]

From Sir Humphrey - should start an interesting thread......

https://tinyurl.com/y2fd7nua

Ranking It in? Should the Military Retain Their Rank Titles on Retirement?

....The risk is that the public understanding of defence becomes linked to images of middle aged men with funny job titles and a certain florid complexion getting angry about things they don’t understand, and wondering what on earth the MOD is playing at. It runs the risk of inadvertently politicising the military by dragging them in when it is not entirely clear to the audience that your interviewee no longer has credible access or relevance.

There is a fundamental question about the act of letting go, and moving on with life. The wearing of uniform is a powerful part of ones life and can shape behaviours and actions for decades afterwards. Many people do find it hard to let go, used to holding a certain status in life and then seeing it snatched from them, they cling to their titles in a way that is both sad, but understandable.

Where this becomes uncomfortable is when you see people wearing their rank in civvy street – be it working as a civil servant and expecting people to brace up because you were formerly a full colonel, or by those in uniform assuming that those who have left don’t lose their position in the system. The author was once verbally bollocked by a serving individual for ‘failing to brace up’ as the then First Sea Lord walked past him while he was deep in conversation with someone.

He pointed out that he was actually a civilian, to which the response was ‘yes well you’re ex-military so you should know better’.Apparently his retort of ‘well I’m an ex-boy scout, but you don’t see me going dib dib dib, dob, dob, dob all the time’ wasn’t considered helpful......

[charliegolf]

I insist that people don't call me Sarge. I'm one of the little guys now.:E

CG

[beardy]

Quite evidently the author is underemployed and overcompensated if he can afford to spend time and effort writing about this.

Oh, he is a civil servant!

[judge11]

I might suggest that 'rank' is a title for which one has worked hard to attain and, hopefully, fully merit and is/was conferred by dint of your Commission granted to you by the Monarch. Upon leaving the Services, there is a hint that you are no longer serving by the addition (in written form) of 'retd' after your rank.

Would you expect a doctor to rescind his hard-earned title upon retirement? I think not.

If your drinking pals down at the local hostelry like to shout 'Evening Colonel' when you walk in - what harm is there in that? Expectation that the entire room to comes to attention is another matter which might need counseling to moderate.

It might also come down to personal standards and respect. Some 40 plus years after leaving school, there is no way I could return to a school reunion and not call any of the surviving teachers by their christian names.

[alfred_the_great]

Of course retired Officers using their (old) rank to leverage "Business Development" opportunities, or pontificating on stuff they have no idea about is perfectly fine...

[Ken Scott]

Ignoring the VSOs in business angle it does seem to be a peculiarly army thing - going into the pub and asking ‘is the Squadron Leader here?’ would be met with blank looks.

[ShyTorque]

After a couple of decades of RAF service I decided that was enough and took my option to leave. Some years later I was persuaded to become an RAF VR(T) Officer to fly cadets at an air experience unit. However, it took so long to get into the system that when I was called forward I’d just experienced a major change in personal employment circumstances and soon realised I could no longer guarantee time off to fulfil my RAF duties. I was working on a very demanding flying roster with infinite changes and had to withdraw my services from the RAF (resulting in a bit of a fallout with the squadron boss). So I might be one of a small minority who has, in effect, resigned from RAF service twice.

I have most definitely never used my previous military rank in civvy street.....from what I’ve seen since I’m glad because it often just makes one look rather silly.

[charliegolf]

....from what I’ve seen since I’m glad because it often just makes one look rather silly.

Open goal Shy, open goal!:ok:

CG (Sarge retd.)

[sharpend]

Interesting topic. It has always been a mystery to me why senior officers, ie Sqn Ldr, Major or Lt Cdr retain their rank on retirement, whilst ranks below do not. Mind you, there are some well know people who break that rule. I do have a business card with my rank and post-numerals on; not for show, but it opens a few doors occasionally; especially in the aviation world. After all, I am not an ex CCF cadet (well actually I am). But a very long time ago it did cause a bit of trouble. I was a director of a prestigious car club/Ltd company and renewed by business card when I ran out. A fellow director, who was in charge of office staff, discovered my cards in my slot and ordered them to all be destroyed. Why? well he was an ex Able Seaman and hated officers, especially RAF ones :) Silly little man.

[radar101]

I retired from the RAF "retaining the rank of wg cdr" and got a job as an SEO/SBL/Grade C1 - level civil servant where I served the RAF for another 16 years.

I was never tempted to use my rank - would have been embarrassing since most of my bosses were sqn ldrs.
Most knew my background so would occasionally ask my opinion but I never ever thought of using the rank to my advantage.
(The advantage for the RAF was that occasionally when my boss's post was gapped, they would ask me to run things for a while)

After full retirement the only letter I get to "Wg Cdr Radar101" is my RAFA subs letter.

[4468]

Would you expect a doctor to rescind his hard-earned title upon retirement? I think not.


”Doctor” is generally a qualification. As in PhD. Corporal, Lieutenant, Admiral etc is an appointment. Once you retire you no longer hold that appointment.

People who cling to such things, having lived most of their lives through their ‘rank’ just look sad.

Though I accept my view may be influenced by my time in the Royal Air Force where many NCO techies could be better qualified than a fair few officers.

[Specaircrew]

I think it's more important to retain your aircrew position on retirement. After all it wouldn't do to be mistaken for a Navigator, or even worse a Bluntie ;-)

[heights good]

Personally, I think the only people that keep their rank are those that have an inflated ego and cant let go.

Exactly the same with doctors, once you longer treat patients you are not a doctor. No different to someone who used to be a teacher, dustbin man, policeman, florist or any other occupation.

I have never understood it... You don't hear of ex VPs being called Mr President....

[ShotOne]

Still a valid question why they should retain the title decades after ceasing to practice.

[jmmoric]

Gone are the days when you titulated people by their profession, education, ranks etc.

I remember my grandmother used to put a lot into it.... Now we only use it whenever we're looking for a job.

I personally don't see why we should revert to it?

[heights good]

Still a valid question why they should retain the title decades after ceasing to practice.

Doctors are a funny one, they have a BSc yet are called doctor. It's a tough job, but it is just a job that millions do.

[Training Risky]

”Doctor” is generally a qualification. As in PhD. Corporal, Lieutenant, Admiral etc is an appointment. Once you retire you no longer hold that appointment.

People who cling to such things, having lived most of their lives through their ‘rank’ just look sad.

Though I accept my view may be influenced by my time in the Royal Air Force where many NCO techies could be better qualified than a fair few officers.

In a way, a knighthood or a peerage could be considered an appointment. After all it's not a qualification! If that tax-dodging poser Lewis Hamilton and overall dodgy bloke Philip Green can insist on the title of 'Sir'...then why shouldn't a retired officer (who has actually earned his rank) use it in retirement?!

As for Debretts snootily overlooking enlisted personnel using their ranks on retirement...they should use their own judgement and carry on anyway if they want to. It's a modern world after all, and nothing should stop a good ex-NCO using what leverage he can to get a job/role/position in the golf club!

[Asturias56]

I've worked with/knew three RAF AVM's and none of them used their old rank outside a reunion.

[NutLoose]

Morning General..Trade Assistant Qty 1... just does not have a ring to it... :{

[Trumpet trousers]

There's a golf club Bath/Chippenham way, that has a board showing past club captains etc. One such entry is Sqn Ldr xxxxxx - quite odd really.

[pasta]

This is going back a bit, but my school was full of them; mostly Army, but I remember a few Navy too. One always had to refer to them as Major xxx, Commander yyy, Capt zzz etc. Even at the time it seemed a bit weird; one teacher I never got on with insisted on being called Lieutenant xxxx, which said a lot in hindsight.
I have a number of good friends with PhDs, never once heard any of them referred to as Dr xxxx, even in a professional capacity.

[hunterboy]

I can understand that maybe just after WW2, retaining rank after retirement may be regarded as fairly normal. Many of those had earned their ranks the hard way and deserved some recognition from society . However, nowadays, I would imagine it does more harm than good to introduce yourself as “Squadron Leader X or Col. Y” unless it is directly related to the situation. I’m not sure the leader board down the golf club would qualify.

[brakedwell]

I went from Flight Lieutenant to Captain, but never used either in normal life.

[Ancient Observer]

I used to know a very senior chap who in his various 2 - 3 year slots before he took his K had a spell doing what laughingly passed as "career development" in the MoD.

I am sure that some of the folk that he moved around his chess board were very bright and capable. Some.

However, he did tell me at what rank those who were on the magic carpet got eased out. It is no secret that those who became Major whilst quite young, and then left, were eased out as they were not going to go any further. This happened in all the Services. But not to the Civil Servants!! Some became a bit bitter and twisted about it.

So I am always very suspicious of anyone who uses their rank post retirement. Do some of them understand how widely they are broadcasting their failure?

[old,not bold]

As a lowly ex-Captain RA, I ran a business on the River Dart for a few years, and discovered that it paid when I needed something from the ex-naval jobsworths in the Dart Harbour Authority to sign my letters Captain RA, but with the A looking very like an N.

[911slf]

When I was a young and junior civil servant I was told that a retired army major was going to be on my staff. I had my concerns but he was absolutely fine to work with. He did not feel he had anything to prove.

[4468]

There's a golf club Bath/Chippenham way, that has a board showing past club captains etc. One such entry is Sqn Ldr xxxxxx - quite odd really.

Is it possible he was still a serving officer when captain of the golf club? (There were a few RAF airfields not a million miles from Chippenham.)

If so, I’d say that would be fair enough?

[Herod]

It's a funny old world. Like ShyTorque, I also have two commissioning scrolls; one as an Acting Pilot Officer (regular) and one as a Flying officer (VRT)..Totally irrelevant now. However, my new RAFA membership card, which used to say "Mr", now says "Flt Lt"

There is one chap I meet each morning when going for a paper. We greet one another with "Morning Colonel", "Morning Wing Commander". Neither of us ever held those ranks. All good for a laugh among us long-retired folk.

[The Oberon]

I went from Flight Lieutenant to Captain, but never used either in normal life.
Strangely enough, according to Debrett's, as a Flight Lieutenant you should not, but as a Captain, providing your post was connected with horses, you can.
It seems to go back to when officers of field rank were "laid off" on half pay between wars, so Majors and their RN equivalents were still serving but not in uniform. The exception was the cavalry and RA whose Captains were also on half pay.
There were a few question marks about Mark Phillips calling himself Captain but being ex cavalry, he was quite entitled to do so.

[Spartacan]

Isn't this just another form of spiteful wokery?

I've just had an email from the RAF Club promoting a talk by Sqn Ldr John Peters of Tornado Down fame.

I think he thoroughly deserves to be remembered by his title . . .

[Yellow Sun]

This is going back a bit, but my school was full of them; mostly Army, but I remember a few Navy too. One always had to refer to them as Major xxx, Commander yyy, Capt zzz etc. "...............

Interesting that my own experience was almost diametrically different. Members of staff might mention their wartime experience in passing but made little of it; after all everyone had been involved and done something. It was only in later years when the obituaries started to be published that I learned the Headmaster had a “good war’ in small craft in the Far East, the Head of English had completed 2 tours as a navigator in Bomber Command; the senior modern languages master had his after action reports quoted by Max Hastings in Armageddon. Finally there was the former Wren who taught geography and spoke fluent German. It was only when her old friends were contacted after her death that it became known that she had spent her war at Bletchley Park. She never breathed a word about it.

I cannot recall rank ever being mentioned, it wasn’t necessary. We were fortunate to have been taught by them.

YS

[lightonthewater]

A director of the shipping owning company (my first employer) always called himself 'Captain Brown', and accorded with the respect due to his assumed maritime expertise. After it was discovered that he had been actually an army captain in the catering corps, and had never seen active duty at all, he looked rather silly. His nickname was ever after 'Captain', but with laughter and without the respect. On the other hand, my father, who earned his MC in 1943 and promotion to Major in 1944,) was later given an official letter authorising him to keep the military title, but he never ever used it. (though his Daily Telegraph obituary did)

[Akrotiri bad boy]

After the mob showed me the door as part of their "Options for Change" I spent many years with HM Customs & Excise in a post that required me to hold the Queens Commission. I would not for the life of me expect, nor would I wish for, anyone to refer to me as HM Customs (retd), Higher Executive Officer (retd) or any other such nonsense relating to what I once was rather than what I now am. My commission is printed on parchment, written in a very fine hand quoting archaic phrases only a classics scholar would understand. It sits in an envelope at the back of my sock draw with all the other detritus from previous careers.

Let it go! But do remember; the older you get the better you were.

[langleybaston]

I write, as ever, as a mere civvy and SLF. Oh! and a Queen's Scout! I certainly don't have a dog in the fight.

Nobody has yet commented on the likelihood that scarcely any member of the public these days has any idea of any of the three rank structures, and is virtually unimpressible by anything short of a knighthood..
My little village has several retired senior officers, some very senior retired police officers, and a knight of the realm ......... none of them clinging to any sort of entitlement, but happy to talk over a pint [remember talking over pints?] and learn of mutual friends, enemies and experiences, places served and journeys made.

I believe that clinging to military ranks {Retd] has had its day, except as courtesy addresses and third-party references. As for army captains retaining the rank title, that is surely risible.

[The B Word]

More importantly, what about the plonkers who call themselves “Captain” when they fly airliners or even puddle jumpers for a flying school for a living - now that is the sign of a Walter Mitty of the highest order... :rolleyes:

[Wensleydale]

I find it quite amusing when introductions are made around the table at a meeting that has a military connection attended by a mix of mostly civilians, retirees and serving. The serving junior officers tend to introduce themselves as "Flt Lt Bloggs" or "Fg Off Bloggs" etc which often seems like a vain attempt to sound self important (especially when they are already in uniform). I find that senior officers in the same position do not use the rank but Christian and surname. I also find that senior civil servants insist on using just Christian names..it makes things much more approachable.

[hunterboy]

I think the whole point is they aren’t important at all nowadays. The military seems to be more of a job than a calling nowadays, and I gather the younger generations are distinctly unimpressed and uninterested by rank or titles anyway. Unless those titles and transferable skills stretch to Call of Duty and DCS.

[Non Linear Gear]

More importantly, what about the plonkers who call themselves “Captain” when they fly airliners or even puddle jumpers for a flying school for a living - now that is the sign of a Walter Mitty of the highest order... :rolleyes:

I have no issue with a P1 on an airliner refering to him being the captain of the aircraft on his address to the passengers. He is the captain and commander of that craft. He has the responsiblity for the lives of the people flying with him. Only time I have ever seen any of the many pilots I have dealt with use the term is for the introduction and updates. End of the day we are all Mister. That does take me to a time where I was talking to a rather well known RAF Officer, due to his extra curicular activities, in a mess where I was a guest. He asked me what I had done in the RAF. I mentioned my ex rank then. The question was then, why I was in the mess? "Because I am a Mister". Took a couple of times to be said, before he understood.

[Ken Scott]

Having perused a copy of Debrett’s I found the established practice is:

Anyone attaining the rank of Admiral of the Fleet, Field Marshal or Marshal of the Royal Air Force ‘continue to use this rank’ as they effectively remain on the active list permanently.

Other regular officers who attained the substantive rank of captain and above may use, and be addressed by, their rank on retirement from the Army.

It also states:

The word ‘retired’ (or ‘retd’) should not be added after an officer’s name in ordinary correspondence or in lists, but only when it is specifically necessary to indicate that an officer has retired, for example one employed in a civilian capacity in a Ministry of Defence establishment to avoid confusion with serving officers.

Interestingly it has the same wording for retired Royal Navy & RAF officers but for Lt Cdrs & Sqn Ldrs. Why an ex-army JO gets to retain their rank title when you need to be a SO from the other services it doesn’t explain.

[NutLoose]

I have no issue with a P1 on an airliner refering to him being the captain of the aircraft on his address to the passengers. He is the captain and commander of that craft. He has the responsiblity for the lives of the people flying with him. Only time I have ever seen any of the many pilots I have dealt with use the term is for the introduction and updates. End of the day we are all Mister. That does take me to a time where I was talking to a rather well known RAF Officer, due to his extra curicular activities, in a mess where I was a guest. He asked me what I had done in the RAF. I mentioned my ex rank then. The question was then, why I was in the mess? "Because I am a Mister". Took a couple of times to be said, before he understood.

or Miss :=


My mate regularly used to shuttle senior RAF officers around in a Company aircraft when they were visiting certain facilities regarding RAF Contracts... he often said he would be chatting away to them about the RAF but sadly never got the opportunity to tell them he used to be an SAC, they just seemed to naturally assume he’d been an officer.

[Non Linear Gear]

or Miss :=


My mate regularly used to shuttle senior RAF officers around in a Company aircraft when they were visiting certain facilities regarding RAF Contracts... he often said he would be chatting away to them about the RAF but sadly never got the opportunity to tell them he used to be an SAC, they just seemed to naturally assume he’d been an officer.

I take the correction unreservedly and with thanks to the gentlemen. He/She. Not the BAES Shuttle? I may know him. One of our ex SFOs was a techie at Colt.

[srjumbo747]

More importantly, what about the plonkers who call themselves “Captain” when they fly airliners or even puddle jumpers for a flying school for a living - now that is the sign of a Walter Mitty of the highest order... :rolleyes:
I’ve been in charge of a few large aircraft and am employed as a captain.
There are a few d*cks who call themselves Captain outside work.
They are d*cks and normally wear long sleeve shirts as well in the flight deck!

[Tankertrashnav]

A recently retired admiral came to live in the village. On his first visit to the pub he was asked by the landlord how he preferred to be addressed. "Either admiral, or Sir John, I don't mind really". On his next visit he was somewhat taken aback when the resident wag called out from his usual position on a stool at the end of the bar, "Hello sailor!"

TTN, BA (Exon) ;)

[plainmaker]

Had a similar discussion with my local GP about the use of 'Doctor'. He also happens to be a (retd) Surgeon-General but has a very down to earth approach to use of title. I have the (un)fortunate position of having obtained a Post Hole Digger following 13+ years of study, and our normal greeting was 'Morning Doctor' - 'Morning Doctor' when connecting with one another. He said he much preferred the use of 'Physician' as that described what he did - said he did not wish to be associated with Dentists, Vets or Psychiatrists!
Did have one benefit for me though. Fronted up to his surgery one night with a pain in the back. Turned out it was DVT. He promptly called the Ambulance and also the Hospital and told them Dr. 'Plainmaker' was about to be admitted. The subsequent bowing and scaping (and priority) from within the medical facility was palpable.

[finestkind]

Interesting thread in some ways. The comparison to a doctor as being stated as a qualification gained is somewhat spurious. I have had the privilege of meeting a number of medical personal that I would not call “Doctor” just because they had the degree hanging on the wall and to suggest doing so once retired is questionable. The qualifications gained in the civilian world that allows the individual to continue to wear the title after retirement but than to deride the doing so of an individual that served in the military not to do so is, without sounding too PC, lacking in fairness. Admittedly they are two different world’s where military rank has little no meaning in the civilian community. But I must admit if someone introduced themselves as Doctor so and so I would introduce myself as Mister so and so. If you are going to acknowledge someone’s qual’s by allowing them to maintain the title in retirement I don’t see the issue with allowing someone to do so after X amount of years in uniform. And although rank is an appointment it is not just given, unless you join with other qual’s (such as Doctor), and therefore earned. And before we have a retort that I must be one that uses my rank in retirement because of my post, no I do not (but I do love to argue the other side of the coin).

[Hydromet]

When I first started my (civilian) career, a senior colleague who had seen serious action in WW II. Told me that straight after the war, when he was in my position, he had a senior colleague who, even when booking into a country pub, used his WW I military rank - "Wagstaff's the name; Captain". He also tried to pull that rank, but was swiftly put down both by his juniors, most of whom had fought in WW II, and his boss, who had been a fighting Brigadier then.

The Brigadier was always known as "The Brig."

[Dont Hang Up]

"Late again Smythe! That's the second time this week you know. You're a retired military guy aren't you? I bet you didn't turn up late then!"

"Well, I am a little embarrassed to admit it, but in the latter years I did rather."

"Really? You amaze me! So when you turned up late then, what did they say?"

"Usually it was something like: Good morning Admiral. Can I get I get you a coffee, sir?"


[sorry, I know it's an old one but it seemed appropriate somehow :)]

[ORAC]

In my last couple of years in the RAF I got involved in a substantial amount of research and development work involving civilians engineers (which led to my subsequent job as a systems engineer, but that’s another matter).

I found most of them referred to me as “doctor ORAC” amongst themselves on the mistaken assumption that I must also have a PhD. I never disabused them....

[Wycombe]

Strangely enough, according to Debrett's, as a Flight Lieutenant you should not, but as a Captain, providing your post was connected with horses, you can.

Am I the only one left wondering whether this rule was created for "Captain Mark"?

The Princess Royal's second husband held much more senior rank, but you don't hear it being referred to daily in quite the same way!

[Haraka]

" Ex Air Force eh?.....I retired as a Wing Commander! "
"However, in the 1950's we were called SACs"

[BEagle]

Mr Blandford, the delightful chap who owned the ironmongery in Ilminster, which was one of those old 'sell everything' places with a wooden floor and smelt of creosote, would address anyone who'd been in the Armed Forces using their rank title, no matter whether they liked it or not! But that was in the '50s, when small town life was rather different and most people in their thirties had probably served during the war.

[charliegolf]

The Princess Royal's second husband held much more senior rank, but you don't hear it being referred to daily in quite the same way!

Not now, because you don't hear much about them at all these days. But a while ago, it was always, 'Commander Lawrence'.

CG

[Hot 'n' High]

Personally, I think the only people that keep their rank are those that have an inflated ego and cant let go.... and
..... So I am always very suspicious of anyone who uses their rank post retirement. Do some of them understand how widely they are broadcasting their failure?

Exactly! I have worked with, and know, many ex-Forces people from an ex-2nd Sea Lord (lived next door for a while!) down to lowly ex-Erks like me. Apart from 2 people, I never came across anyone who "used their Rank" and I was often really surprised (in a pleasant way) at how senior some people had risen given how humble/normal they were.

The 2 exceptions were an ex-FS and an ex-Air Cdre. How the RAF ever survived after they left was simply amazing! Oh, until you found out the jobs they each had prior to leaving the Mob and the "interesting" views of those who'd served with them! :p

Of course, you do get people like the Landlord of my local who, on finding out I'd "done me time", has been known to greet me loudly at the Bar with "Aw gawd, it's the bleedin' Admiral!" as he knows how much it annoys me. Of course, my response, in my best Nelsonian tone of voice, is always "Ah, Bar Steward! Mine's a pint of XYZ!". Of course, in my reply, the gap between the words "Bar" and "Steward" is almost non-existant! :ok:

[2Planks]

Never used mine, except when I was giving a witness statement to protect a neighbour from a vexatious litigant.

I had to laugh when my neighbour asked if I used it in general. He used to work in personnel at Vickers where the gravy train of retired Colonels was well greased. One of said cadre sent a memo around on his arrival telling everyone he wished to be called Colonel. The General Manager of the site, ex national service only, issued a memo the following day instructing that he was to be referred to as Leading Bandsman W.!

[Runaway Gun]

How did the BBMF get a Major?

[megan]

All here lads & lasses. Bit peeved an Army Captain can but a Navy lieutenant can't. :{

https://www.debretts.com/expertise/forms-of-address/professions/the-armed-forces/

[NutLoose]

The only addressing in a bar the Navy needs is...

Watch your rear, the Navies here.

I always find it sad people appear to want to cling onto their past ranks, but hey ho, if it makes them feel good in themselves then let it be.

He said he much preferred the use of 'Physician' as that described what he did - said he did not wish to be associated with Dentists, Vets or Psychiatrists!

Dentists in the UK are not given the title Doctor, even though the first few years o their courses are I believe identical.

[jez d]

Reminds one of George Bernard Shaw's quip: "Titles distinguish the mediocre, embarrass the superior, and are disgraced by the inferior."

[Hot 'n' High]

(a) The only addressing in a bar the Navy needs is... Watch your rear, the Navies here.
(b) ..... but hey ho, if it makes them feel good in themselves then let it be........ .

Re (a), cheers NL! You work in a bar too then??? Check my Post above for the "you Cad!" sentiment implied! You Bounder!!!!! :ok:

I agree with (b) tho, it's just I find it annoying to think that such people think I'm stupid enough to buy it! :ugh: Still, it's quite funny to see what they think people think of them ...... but to know what those people really think of them! And, end of the day, once 6ft under, the worms won't give a stuff!

[The Oberon]

My History and Economics master at school, who was also a close neighbour, had been a Squadron Leader during WW11. He left teaching to become an M.P., Home Secretary and finally a Baron. He had a police post built on the rear of his garage and, much to the concern of his police guard, could be seen most Sunday mornings cutting his front lawn wearing his old wartime KD shorts and a T-shirt. He was known to all and sundry by his first name. No frills there.

[Blue_Circle]

Ignoring the VSOs in business angle it does seem to be a peculiarly army thing - going into the pub and asking ‘is the Squadron Leader here?’ would be met with blank looks.

Unless he's cavalry or course.

[Centaurus]

Many years ago a former Boeing instructor pilot joined our South Pacific airline. His job at Boeing in Seattle was to check airline pilots in the Boeing 737 simulator. He told us about a South American country that needed an airline inspector and had interviewed one man who held the rank of "Captain" He was sent to Boeing in Seattle to get qualified on the Boeing 737 prior to taking up his duties as an airline inspector.

He had great difficulty learning how to fly the Boeing 737 simulator - so much so, that he failed the course and was sent back home to his South American country. It was only then it was realised that in his application for the job he had claimed to be a "captain" when in fact he omitted to say he was a captain on a ferry boat. As he was a genial fellow all was forgiven and he eventually became an airline inspector after he was taught how to fly.

[2Planks]

Runaway Gun, IIRC BBMF inherited the Major, because that was the nickname P was given on an exchange tour in the States, seemingly Sqn Ldr was a bit tricky for them.

[622]

Slight thread drift...
My brothers first two intials are DR....so I believe often use to cause confusion when writing his name on forms etc.....DR XXXXXX.
...and hence his nickname used to be 'Doc' amongst his peers.

[36050100]

And what about the wives? "Hello Dear, I'm Mrs Wing Commander XXX"

[NutLoose]

And what about the wives? "Hello Dear, I'm Mrs Wing Commander XXX"

Or Husbands.... := :O


Ohhh gawd, i'm turning into one of those PC nutters....someone give me a slap!

[old,not bold]

The Spanish loco that was once British Airways still betrays its heritage by offering its passengers a wide choice of titles. Over the years, decades even, I have tried nearly all of them; Sir, Rt Hon, Lord, Baron, Viscount, Prof, Rabbi (not very plausibly), Rev.

I avoid Dr, although I know that there are those non-medical doctors who invite derision by using the title, in case of the dreaded call; "Is there a Doctor on Board?".

I'm please to be able to report that it has never made one jot of difference to the way I was treated on the ground or in the air, demonstrating that most people regard titles as ridiculous nonsense, as I do.

[langleybaston]

Interesting thread in some ways. The comparison to a doctor as being stated as a qualification gained is somewhat spurious. I have had the privilege of meeting a number of medical personal that I would not call “Doctor” just because they had the degree hanging on the wall and to suggest doing so once retired is questionable. The qualifications gained in the civilian world that allows the individual to continue to wear the title after retirement but than to deride the doing so of an individual that served in the military not to do so is, without sounding too PC, lacking in fairness. Admittedly they are two different world’s where military rank has little no meaning in the civilian community. But I must admit if someone introduced themselves as Doctor so and so I would introduce myself as Mister so and so. If you are going to acknowledge someone’s qual’s by allowing them to maintain the title in retirement I don’t see the issue with allowing someone to do so after X amount of years in uniform. And although rank is an appointment it is not just given, unless you join with other qual’s (such as Doctor), and therefore earned. And before we have a retort that I must be one that uses my rank in retirement because of my post, no I do not (but I do love to argue the other side of the coin).

I believe not. Surely rank X qualifies one for an appointment for those of rank X, or, alternatively, filling an appointment for rank X will/should lead to acting or substantive rank X?

[Q-SKI]

On retiring from the RAF I worked for a county council as part of a team maintaining Public Rights of Way (footpaths, bridleways etc). One of my tasks was liaising with landowners or their representatives about any rights of way crossing their land. This particular time I had to visit a local flower and plant nursery on an estate. On arrival I was told to sit and wait to see Captain *****. When he finally chose to acknowledge me I thanked him using the term Mr *****. “It’s Captain *****” he replied. “Oh, are you still serving?” I asked. “No” he replied. “Well, were you in the Navy or Royal Marines?” I asked. “No, British Army so please refer to me as Captain” . “Well in that case you can address me as Flight Lieutenant then” I replied to much sniggering 🤭 from the office staff and a red faced Mr *****

[Herod]

A quote in the paper the other day, from a retired Government minister I believe. I've thrown the paper and can't remember who it was, but... "I had a very important job once, but I can't remember what it was; and anyway, it doesn't matter any more"

[Non Linear Gear]

Or Husbands.... := :O


Ohhh gawd, i'm turning into one of those PC nutters....someone give me a slap!

Mrs NLG hated the rank culture on base for the short time we were ever in a quarter. Move outside the wire and the eldest into the local school. A lot of officers children, but no rank ever brought up or mentioned.

[yellowtriumph]

I always refer to my GP using the form 'Dr Sarah' or 'Dr Andrew' for example. Seems to be the right balance between familiarity and respect for their position and none of them has ever queried it.

[Haraka]

I was appointed as a Flt Lt four times. 1972(Green Shield GDP chopped),1975,(Ground pounder) 1983, ( PVR'd,VR in Industry). 1987 (back in) Then I finally took the hint :) (Pvr'd 1996)

[The Oberon]

Runaway Gun, IIRC BBMF inherited the Major, because that was the nickname P was given on an exchange tour in the States, seemingly Sqn Ldr was a bit tricky for them.

On a similar note. I knew a Vulcan AEO named Colin S****y who was known as Col, his flying suit nametag read Col S****y. USAF had similar problems in thinking Col referred to his rank and gave him the privileges they thought he was due.
He also had an identical twin brother, who was also serving, but that is another story.

[Haraka]

A late commissioned mate was amazed af the treatment he got in the USA.
They thought that "Fg,Offr" meant Flag Officer .

[Richard Dangle]

Specaircrew...fixed yer post mate ;)

I think it's more important to retain your aircrew position on retirement. After all it wouldn't do to be mistaken for a Navigator, or even worse an AEO ;-)

As the Op...could not care less one way or the other. Other than banter and pension, my military life has very little connection to my civilian life. I did 27 wonderful years with so many awesome people (Specaircrew was one of them :)). But when its over, its over. look forwards not back. On the other hand if some folk want to hang on to the rank, crack on.

I doubt trivia like this alters public perception one iota.

[rolling20]

I think many many years ago the military was held in very high esteem by the public. They won us 2 world wars after all.
From 1918 until fairly recently,there must have been a Major or 3 in every golf club in the country, with the odd Colonel and General for good measure.
People looked up to them and rightly so. They may have played up to it, but I am sure no one minded. Why shouldn't they be addressed by their military title?
These days no one really has much of an idea about the military, let alone ranks, so potentially most people wouldn't have an idea if someone addressed themselves as Major etc.
For myself, I never got beyond the Bulldog and Cadet Pilot status. For some reason my friends at home decided to call me Captain for a while and that confused people.
Now I went to work on the Stock Exchange and everyone there had a nickname. There were however many Captains, Majors and Colonels, all of whom apparently had military service. There were few if any navy or airforce X officers however.
Now you may have heard this, but it was always stated as fact. Slightly before my time on the floor, but there were two brothers who both served in WW2. One was called the Hero, the other was known as the Coward.
The reason being apparently, the Coward had only won an MC and his Hero brother the VC!

[BEagle]

On a similar note. I knew a Vulcan AEO named Colin S****y who was known as Col, his flying suit nametag read Col S****y.

Colin was the AEO on our crew and a really nice chap too. In Feb '79 we flew a JMC trip; Colin's immersion suit was in for servicing, so he was given a section spare. On which there was a large label stating 'Suit size (), Sock size 8'.... On the bus to the jet, we grabbed hold of him and 'Sock size 8', with the aid of a black permanent pen, became 'Cock size 8" '.

Then came the sudden snow and we were diverted to Kinloss without any change of clothing or div kit. No room in the OM, so we were accommodated off base. As you do, we went out for a few beers still dressed in immersion suits - and Colin soon became the centre of attention amongst the local ladies!

We finally escaped the frozen North 5 days later. Mercifully Clothing Stores agreed to give us some flying suits, socks and shirts the day after we landed, before our kit became too reesty!

[dagenham]

On the subject of doctors. The degree is five years, the first three or four ( can’t remember now ) gains a BA or BSc medicine and the last year the MD I seem to remember

it seems the army is possibly the biggest culprit my father told me a tale of a cruise they went on a couple of years ago, with a gentlemen who insisted on being called captain all the time and was generally an arse... hat on no talking etc which meant little to those around him.

anyhoo one evening at the bar he swanned over to pops, who enquired which ship he commmaded hoping for a tail or two. He then replied that he was a captain in the royal logistics core. Pops commented that it really wasn’t the done thing to go on about your rank below major. To which the Captain got a tad upset and after which my father request he call him Sir on every occasion and afford him all the privileges of being a Retired Major or alternatively he could drop all this and be on first name basis...... it soon stopped

[tr6man]

Talking about the ladies, I saw what could only be ‘condoned’ in the USAF about 40 years ago at an RAAF base in Australia. A four star General, head of a major command was to visit for a few hours. The shiny C-141 taxied in and the Base Commander awaited the door opening, which duly was lowered and out stepped the General in his immaculate flying suit. Right behind him was his lady dressed in a similar flying suit, bearing four butterflies on the shoulder rank slide. The Base Commander, who was a real character, without moving his lips, uttered to me (standing to the right rear), ‘God, get a load of mother!). Both of them were very nice people!

[4mastacker]

I had the opportunity to take advantage of a well-used and unoriginal bit of rank banter with another member of the canal restoration society to which we belong. This chap is a retired Major who served in the Lincolnshire Field Ploughers and Ferret Breeders or some such regiment - calling him a military cabbage is a serious under-statement.

Anyways, he was recalling his days in khaki when he was OC 'This' and OC 'That' and he asked me about my time in the light blue. "What rank were you ?" he asked. "Flight Sergeant" I replied. "Oh, in the Army, you would have been a staff sergeant" he said.

Oh Joy!! Hallelujah!! Praise the Lord!! It was too good an opportunity to miss, so I responded with the old chestnut "Jim, if I had been in the Army, I would have been a ***** brigadier".

[radeng]

As a civvy, I find the use of 'Captain' by retried airline pilots - and I've come across a few of them who do - rather pretentious, say the least. I don't use 'Senior Member IEEE, except in commercial or technical situations where it is justified.
- just as a friend doesn't use his title of professor in areas in which he wans't a professor.

[Union Jack]

I don't believe that I have seen any mention of the fact, stemming from the events 1970s I imagine, that the general (pun intended) use of ranks, especially in a non Service context including personal correspondence, should be avoided. This, in addition to major (pun intended) reductions in the numbers of people who had served in uniform, whether voluntarily or otherwise, has presumably contributing both to much less use of ranks on retirement, and the civilian population's lack of understanding, or probably lack of interest, in ranks.

None of my civilian friends either knows or is interested in what rank I hold, and this has often led to innocent fun, such as a when a general as a fellow-guest on a yacht running out of Lymington offered to teach me how to tie a clove hitch, something I knew how to do when I was about eight. The "lesson" and my wide-eyed innocence were sadly abruptly ended when the owner clicked what was going on and grassed me up!

Jack

[BIGBAD]

I make the children use my title. They refer to me as Second Officer Bigbad. I don’t ask the wife to use my title, unless we are in company , as that would be ridiculous.

I will certainly be using my title on retirement, especially if I’m able to get promoted to First Officer or Relief Captain.

[NutLoose]

Surely the wife is First Officer Bigbad.

[622]

.... especially if I’m able to get promoted to First Officer or Relief Captain.

Wow, they really do pamper them in first class! :E

[spekesoftly]

An old friend of mine, who had previously been an RAF pilot before retirement, took a job on the North Sea Oil Rigs. Whenever any of his colleagues wanted to get his attention they would simply shout "Oi, Aeroplane!" Seemed fair enough.

[Specaircrew]

Specaircrew...fixed yer post mate ;)



As the Op...could not care less one way or the other. Other than banter and pension, my military life has very little connection to my civilian life. I did 27 wonderful years with so many awesome people (Specaircrew was one of them :)). But when its over, its over. look forwards not back. On the other hand if some folk want to hang on to the rank, crack on.

I doubt trivia like this alters public perception one iota.

A perfectly acceptable edit old chap ;-) I didn't realise that you could edit the stuff in quotes so that's opened up a whole new line of lockdown amusement for me. I'm off to quote all those irritating 'virtue signallers' then change their text to what millennials call 'inappropriate' so that I can chastise them for their lack of political correctness ;-) Or shall I just go to the Pub with all the other Flt Lt (Retd) chaps ...........Oh Bugger!

[Hydromet]

I make the children use my title. They refer to me as Second Officer Bigbad. I don’t ask the wife to use my title, unless we are in company , as that would be ridiculous.

I will certainly be using my title on retirement, especially if I’m able to get promoted to First Officer or Relief Captain.
I do think that's rather overdoing it, old chap. I just told mine to call me Sir.

[Herod]

It happened again this morning "Morning Colonel" "Morning Wing Commander". Since he was Army National Service, so probably a young squaddie, and I retired as a Flt Lt, the ranks used seem entirely appropriate!!

[charliegolf]

An old friend of mine, who had previously been an RAF pilot before retirement, took a job on the North Sea Oil Rigs. Whenever any of his colleagues wanted to get his attention they would simply shout "Oi, Aeroplane!" Seemed fair enough.

I did a 2 week first aid instructor course at Halton, and was the only aircrew bloke there. All the rest were Rocks. As soon as they realised my job, it was, "Oi! Fat Wallet!" They were nuts, but great fun.

CG

PS. Foe me, always much more annoying than the 'rank cling-on' issue, is/was serving officers who introduce themselves with, "Hello, my name is Squadron Leader Bloggs." Still grates. Hey ho.

[mad_collie]

PS. Foe me, always much more annoying than the 'rank cling-on' issue, is/was serving officers who introduce themselves with, "Hello, my name is Squadron Leader Bloggs." Still grates. Hey ho.

I normally ask people like that if they want to be called 'Squadron' or 'Leader'.

[DON T]

Strangely Consultant Surgeons cease to be called Dr and revert to Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms etc.Why are surgeons in the UK called Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs, rather than Dr?In most other parts of the world all medical practitioners, physicians and surgeons alike, are referred to as Dr while in the UK surgeons are usually referred to as Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs. This is because, from the Middle Ages physicians had to embark on formal university training to gain possession of a degree in medicine before they could enter practice. The possession of this degree, a doctorate, entitled them to the title of ‘Doctor of Medicine’ or Doctor.

The training of surgeons until the mid-19th century was different. They did not have to go to university to gain a degree; instead they usually served as an apprentice to a surgeon. Afterwards they took an examination. In London, after 1745, this was conducted by the Surgeons' Company and after 1800 by The Royal College of Surgeons. If successful they were awarded a diploma, not a degree, therefore they were unable to call themselves 'Doctor', and stayed instead with the title 'Mr'.

Outside London and in the largest cities, the surgeon served as an apprentice like many other tradesmen, but did not necessarily take any examination. Today all medical practitioners, whether physicians or surgeons have to undertake training at medical school to obtain a qualifying degree. Thereafter a further period of postgraduate study and training through junior posts is required before full consultant surgeon status is achieved. Thus the tradition of a surgeon being referred to as Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs has continued, meaning that in effect a person starts as Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs, becomes a Dr and then goes back to being a Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs again!

[blind pew]

Having been refused a job bombing innocents my next career choice was to drive around not so innocents.
A couple of years after I got onto the Tridents we had our first Hamble blokes come through. Most having attended lesser public schools. A few insisted on the captain nonsense in the pub as well as telephone directory.
One trip the whole crew plus a local hostess girl friend of mine ended up in a Glasgow eating house when everyone used Christian names except the captain insisted that I used his rank or sir.
So in my best Essex vernacular I obliged but added his surname..Farqharson which I missed pronounced as Far - ke - harr -sun upon which he decided to give me elocution lessons.
I stopped after numerous failed attempts as the rest of the crew were struggling not to collapse into a fit of giggles.
Never flew with him again as his ego demanded he went onto the bigger and newer piece of kit.

[bobward]

Thank heavens nobody referred to Mrs Bigbad as Section Officer...... 'twould drive Beagle into a frenzy!

[Caramba]

[QUOTE=dagenham;10973092]On the subject of doctors. The degree is five years, the first three or four ( can’t remember now ) gains a BA or BSc medicine and the last year the MD I seem to remember

No. If it’s a five year course, no BSc (or BA). If it’s 6 years then maybe. MD is a post graduate degree awarded for original research. So most (medical) doctors are just plain MB, BS or similar (bachelor of medicine, surgery). Real doctors have a PhD 😁

As for surgeons being Mr, I always thought that was because they originally were barbers. Anyway, it’s a ludicrous bit of inverted snobbery that causes much confusion. Unique, I believe, to the U.K.
caramba

[Hot 'n' High]

Strangely Consultant Surgeons cease to be called Dr and revert to Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms etc....

Fascinating! I did wonder how it worked as a Mr Edmondson had the dubious task of refurbishing my Main Re-circulation Pump fitting a plastic valve in and so on a couple of years ago. I was initially a bit concerned the NHS was using local plumbers, possibly with a background in comedy, brought in to ease the backlog or something. But, thru some basic research, seems he was "only" the Trusts Cardiac Clinical Director, their Chief of Surgery and the Chair of the Clinical Board overseeing 5 London Hospitals in all 3 roles!

In my consultation ahead of Surgery he said "Well, Mr H 'n' H, I can do your Op myself but I have 4 weeks work booked in and then have to take some Leave and so I'm away for a further 3 weeks of golf so I can arrange for a colleague to step in if you wish." to which my instant response was "Sir, you have a fabulous 3 weeks golf! I'll see you on the operating table when you get back if that's OK with you!". Natural respect comes to those like Mr E who was totally unassuming - only prior research revealed who he really was .... and showed he was well deserving of the informal title of "Sir" rather than "Mr" and well above "Dr"!

If I'd gone Private, I dare not think how much that would have cost me - as it was the whole NHS Team were brilliant. Oh, and it seemed he'd had a really great 3 weeks batting golf balls round various greens in some sunny, exotic climes!!! He was quite taken aback when that was the first (and about the only) question I asked him when we met up 8 weeks later! I figured that he'd done about 10,000 ops so it was just easier to say "Chop away!" and not worry about it. Still clicking happily away as I type this! :ok:

[Laarbruch72]

After retiring from the RAF I went on to manage a department at a UK Airline, quite a lot of the guys around the HQ were ex RAF or Navy; Two of the Fleet Managers, some of the Safety Pilots, a lady in Flt Ops Project Management, the Safety Manager, even the Airline MD. All super, super people, all had been commissioned, some had been fairly senior, not one of them mentioned a rank.
My direct boss there had retired as a Sqn Ldr navigator on Tornadoes, but I only knew his leaving rank because I asked once out of interest, he wouldn't go on about it. The rest of the ex-forces people were nearly all RAF/RN pilots which I knew from the odd dit in the pub, although I have no idea what rank, they seemingly never needed to mention it. Which is as it should be, we were working for an airline then, we were no longer in the RAF or RN and we'd each gone off, retrained, reinvented, and come into a new career. I liked knowing they had a forces background but it wouldn't make a difference to the professional respect I had of them.

I think it's a little pitiful to try and maintain a rank once you're out. You're out, let it go, become the new you.

[Asturias56]

There was an obit. in the papers a few years back about a local Councillor in I think it was Guildford - when he died they discovered he held the GC (possibly WW2 bomb disposal?) - he'd never mentioned it - I think his wife knew but "he never wanted a fuss - and he felt it was irrelevant to his job"

[charliegolf]

he held the GC (possibly WW2 bomb disposal?) - he'd never mentioned it - I think his wife knew but "he never wanted a fuss - and he felt it was irrelevant to his job"

Classy. If I had the GC, the ribbon would even be on my pyjamas!

CG

[Caramba]

Natural respect comes to those like Mr E who was totally unassuming - only prior research revealed who he really was .... and showed he was well deserving of the informal title of "Sir" rather than "Mr" and well above "Dr"!

Dear Hot ‘n High,

A curious thing to say. Prior research will usually reveal a lot of extraneous roles, but means nothing about skill. Professors of surgery are renowned for being totally handless. And Mr is definitely not above Dr.

BTW if it’s the Mr E I knew, he was pretty good at squash.

To return to the point of the OP, surely we leave all these things behind on retirement? Next phase in life and all that. Past performance is no guide to future performance.

caramba

[Two's in]

When people ask me if I ever served in the military, I feel I have been reasonably successful in my conduct - until it comes to swearing of course, at which I beat them all, hands down.

[NutLoose]

I remember attending a piss up for our Engineering boss who had been chosen to become an ADC so was off to different climes, this was apparently seen as a right move in his promotion prospects and a way up the ladder, I asked him what he aspired too.......... the answer, a Metropolitan policeman, he'd always wanted to be one and hoped he would attain his goal..

Go figure lol

[Crromwellman]

A few years ago I attended the funeral of aa acquaintance that I met in the local pub. He was an ex-FAA Corsair pilot from WWII. Imagine my, and many other's) surprise when on the order of service it showed he had been awarded the DSO and had been involved in raids on the Tirpitz and later in the Far East and would have been Hamilton-Gray's (VC) wingman if it hadn't been for a cold that grounded him. He subsequently played football for Blackpool and was in the Cup Final alongside Stanley Matthews. He never used his rank

I am ex-Army and when I left, I left the rank behind and I believe that is how it should be. New start, look forward

[Hot 'n' High]

... A curious thing to say. Prior research will usually reveal a lot of extraneous roles, but means nothing about skill. Professors of surgery are renowned for being totally handless. And Mr is definitely not above Dr. ........ BTW if it’s the Mr E I knew, he was pretty good at squash.

I agree with you in that you can get "Senior Idiots" but, in this case, his clear "High Seniority" (no guarantee - agreed) combined with the totally relaxed, unpretentious and down-to-earth way he conducted the initial consultation appealed to the Engineer in me. There was no BS at all. Hence the "no hesitation" on my part to await his return. And to be top of the field across so many roles (I'd put them down quite highly on the QA/Governance side of that game) leads one to suspect that he is well respected - given the litigation which bedevils the Medical world these days. Sadly, of his skills on the squash court, I am uninformed!

Regarding a Mr being above a Dr, theoretically there should be a difference just on experience alone. However, as we have seen from our discussion of Service personnel, you get all sorts at all levels. In this particular case, even one of the Dr's on the team involved confided in me that "You are in the very best hands - by a loooong way!". By that time they all knew I was not worried at all by what was about to happen and, in the way it was said, it seemed to me to be very much an afterthought. It came across as a genuine sign of respect rather than "I better reassure this trembling wreck of a patient that he'll be OK!".

You probably know far more than I do on such matters - TBH, I avoid the world of "Quackerey" as much as I can - but, in this case, I had no option! Apologies for Thread Drift!! :ok:

[Dan Winterland]

A RAF gliding club in East Anglia in the early 1980's dispatched one of it's pilots on their qualifying cross country - all of 50km. he was supposed to land at another RAF Station, but landed out a few km short - but still achieving the required distance. A retrieve crew were dispatched towing the glider's trailer to collect him from the grounds of the large country house in which he had landed. On arrival, the retrieve crew sent to the kitchens to get the cook to rustle up something for them while the pilot was been royally entertained in the drawing room. One of the retrieve crew was OC Ops (a Wg Cdr) while the glider pilot was a SAC! But they got their own back when it transpired he had been given tea and cucumber sandwiches while the crew were quaffing bottles of ale. The pilot had to drive home!

[ShyTorque]

I did a 2 week first aid instructor course at Halton, and was the only aircrew bloke there. All the rest were Rocks. As soon as they realised my job, it was, "Oi! Fat Wallet!" They were nuts, but great fun.

CG

PS. Foe me, always much more annoying than the 'rank cling-on' issue, is/was serving officers who introduce themselves with, "Hello, my name is Squadron Leader Bloggs." Still grates. Hey ho.

CG, The squadron where you and I served had a newly arrived officer’s wife who announced herself to the assembled throng at a party: “Hello, I’m Mrs Squadron Leader ....”.

The chaps were so impressed that one pilot even curtsied! :rolleyes:

[Cyberhacker]

”Doctor” is generally a qualification. As in PhD.
For medical doctors, on the whole, it's an appointment - most are only hold Bachelor (albeit enhanced, to equivalent to Masters) degrees eg Bachelor of Medicine or Bachelor of Surgery...

People who cling to such things, having lived most of their lives through their ‘rank’ just look sad.
In many ways, I hold the same view of excessive post-nominals. I very rarely list any of mine (although I am entitled to use quite a lot of the alphabet) and always smile when I see lots of letters listed by others.

It always reminds me of Red Dwarf, where Rimmer was BSc SSc - Bronze and Silver swimming certificates.

[tarantonight]

A few years ago I attended the funeral of aa acquaintance that I met in the local pub. He was an ex-FAA Corsair pilot from WWII. Imagine my, and many other's) surprise when on the order of service it showed he had been awarded the DSO and had been involved in raids on the Tirpitz and later in the Far East and would have been Hamilton-Gray's (VC) wingman if it hadn't been for a cold that grounded him. He subsequently played football for Blackpool and was in the Cup Final alongside Stanley Matthews. He never used his rank

I am ex-Army and when I left, I left the rank behind and I believe that is how it should be. New start, look forward

What a fantastic story, do you recall the name?. Likely a Swordfish Pilot at time of Tirpitz attack I should think - could be wrong though.

TN.

[RobertP]

I remember well at 2FTS Syerston, 1963 the SWO announcing “Officers and their ladies, NCOs and their wives, Airmen and their women” classless? hardly, certainly priceless and for those of who at one time or another were in all three categories, a memory to cherish! Ho Ho.

[tarantonight]

What a fantastic story, do you recall the name?. Likely a Swordfish Pilot at time of Tirpitz attack I should think - could be wrong though.

TN.

Research shows name is probably John Crosland, (a WWII Fleet Air Arm Pilot), but he is not on Team Sheet for FA Cup Final 1953 - could be another year though?? - he played for Blackpool 1946 - 1954. Substitute in ‘53 perhaps?

TN.

[RetiredBA/BY]

My experience:

Some years ago I was staying with friends in Kent. A local and his wife were invited to join us for dinner. Turned out he had been a VERY distinguished Air Chief Marshal. On meeting him and saying how wonderful it was to meet him and using his rank to address him( his wartime ops. were incredible. )

NO said he, please call me Bob, I am no longer IN the RAF, we were both pilots.

For the rest of the evening he treated me, a retired Flt Lt, as if I were his favourite son, marvellous.

Visitors to the RAF club will see a room dedicated to him.

....and there was one of my students at SORF, an Air Commodore, OC. CFS designate. Like all my hstudents invited him home for a spag. . Bol and a glass or three of wine. Of course I addressed him as Sir.

my name is ROY not sir in your home, now when can you both join me for dinner in Louth, my treat !

[NutLoose]

Classy. If I had the GC, the ribbon would even be on my pyjamas!

CG

if you had it, it would be tattooed on your chest :E

[tarantonight]

My experience:

Some years ago I was staying with friends in Kent. A local and his wife were invited to join us for dinner. Turned out he had been a VERY distinguished Air Marshal. On meeting him and saying how wonderful it was to meet him and using his rank to address him( his wartime ops. were incredible. )

NO said he, please call me Bob, I am no longer IN the RAF, we were both pilots.

For the rest of the evening he treated me, a retired Flt Lt, as if I were his favourite son, marvellous.

Visitors to the RAF club will see a room dedicated to him.

Love stories like this. A true gent clearly. Slight Thread Drift. A mate of mine has a QGM and never mentions it.

TN.

[ex-fast-jets]

Two things...............

I have never used rank since I retired, but one of the first questions asked by non-military folk when they find out that I am ex-military is "What rank were you?"

When I respond with a "Why? - And what does it matter?" I am met with a strange look as if I am trying to hide something.

Point two........

I did a US Exchange tour and the Sqn Ldr I was replacing had a great line when visiting a USMC Base. Checking in to the BOQ, he would be questioned by a Marine who did not understand his rank........

It went something like this.....

What is your rank, Sir?.......

Squadron Leader.

Squadron Leader Sir........Sorry, Sir, don't understand that, Sir...........What rank would you be if you were in the Marine Corps, Sir............

Oh - I'd probably be a General by now if I was in the Marine Corps.

Yes Sir, General, Sir, let me get you a great room, Sir...........

etc etc

I never tried that line!!

[jayteeto]

I got called Biggles a lot........
When I left the RAF it was refreshing to get my Mr title back

[Thud_and_Blunder]

When I left the RAF it was refreshing to get my Mr title back
The CAA never seemed to want to help - they insisted on addressing all correspondence to "Captain xxx" when I first started flying civvy. It took some time to get them to accept that I wanted to be called "Mr". Then there was one of the ex-bobby observers in my last job who learned that it really wound me up to be referred to as Captain when on the ground, or as 'sir' at any time; you can guess how much he enjoyed pushing the buttons :}

[Fareastdriver]

At the end of the last century I was flying out of Tianjin, not the airfield, but the dock area. Security was provided by the Chinese Navy and as the company got along very well with the Navy, our pilots were recruited from them, so I travelled to work in the back of a Navy registered Hyundai Sonata saloon.

Mid winter, -20 at night rocketing up to +5 during the day. I normally had a jersey with a PLA overcoat on top but this day I was meeting a client so I had my four-ringed regalia on. As the minion opened the gate he looked at me and sprang to attention as if his life depended on it; it probably did.

Later in the day as we approached the gate the gatekeeper halted us for some time . That’s when the guards strode out of the guardroom and stood to attention. I thought that this was a good idea so next morning I sat in the back with my best kit on and acknowledged the parade as I passed.

Not knowing the penalty for impersonating a military office in China I mentioned it to the local staff on the unit. When I returned from my flight they told me that they had been around to find out who this VIP was.

When we went through the gate there was no parade or bowing and scraping. Just a surly slamming of the gates behind us.

[Sloppy Link]

Classy. If I had the GC, the ribbon would even be on my pyjamas!

CG
Dads Army, S3 E11
Mainwaring, “If I had the MM, I’d wear it for everyone to see”
Godfrey, “And that would be fine because you look like a hero”
Wilson ”Goes to show you can’t judge by appearances”

or something like that

[mopardave]

At the end of the last century I was flying out of Tianjin, not the airfield, but the dock area. Security was provided by the Chinese Navy and as the company got along very well with the Navy, our pilots were recruited from them, so I travelled to work in the back of a Navy registered Hyundai Sonata saloon.

Mid winter, -20 at night rocketing up to +5 during the day. I normally had a jersey with a PLA overcoat on top but this day I was meeting a client so I had my four-ringed regalia on. As the minion opened the gate he looked at me and sprang to attention as if his life depended on it; it probably did.

Later in the day as we approached the gate the gatekeeper halted us for some time . That’s when the guards strode out of the guardroom and stood to attention. I thought that this was a good idea so next morning I sat in the back with my best kit on and acknowledged the parade as I passed.

Not knowing the penalty for impersonating a military office in China I mentioned it to the local staff on the unit. When I returned from my flight they told me that they had been around to find out who this VIP was.

When we went through the gate there was no parade or bowing and scraping. Just a surly slamming of the gates behind us.
A former colleague of mine who'd been in the M.T. at Watton (I think?) back in the early '80's, thought it would be fun to get a lift home in the station commanders staff car complete with pennants flying. Anyhow, his mate, also in the M.T. offered to drive whilst my errant colleague relaxed in the back. He said it felt rather gratifying when the S.W.O. threw him one up........and then did a double take as they wafted past! Apologies for the thread drift.

[goofer]

A cautionary tale:
Speaking of our American cousins, several years ago at a dinner in Washington I was sat next to an impressive-looking chap who was not inclined to conversation. I was probably a couple of martinis ahead of him.
I vaguely recalled that he had been introduced as "Colonel" so I took that as a starting point. It was slow going but he eventually disclosed that he was USAF retd. "Oh, how interesting!" I said. "What did you fly?" He was silent for a while then he said "Space Shuttle."
I might have guessed - he oozed the Right Stuff.
Another pause. "Twice."
That shut me up, which obviously suited him just fine.
So I turned my conversational talents on the attractive brunette sitting opposite. Turns out she was a Colonel retd. too. And his wife.
Moral: Retired officers really should drop their ranks. Or perhaps I should drink fewer martinis...
goofer

[Union Jack]

Research shows name is probably John Crosland, (a WWII Fleet Air Arm Pilot), but he is not on Team Sheet for FA Cup Final 1953 - could be another year though?? - he played for Blackpool 1946 - 1954. Substitute in ‘53 perhaps?

TN.
I read that John Crosland DSC played left back for Blackpool in the 1948 Cup Final, along with both Stanley Matthews and Len Mortensen, but regrettably they lost 4-2 to Matt Busby's Manchester United.

Jack

[Tankertrashnav]

Re surgeons being called "Mister"

I had an appointment to see a consultant urologist about a bladder problem. At reception, I was told I would not be seeing the chap I was expecting but was told I would be seeing Mr Shearer instead. When I was wheeled in I was somewhat confused to see quite an attractive young lady behind the desk. When I asked if I was in the right room, because I was expecting to see Mr Shearer, she laughed and said - "No, I'm Miss Teixera" (a Portuguese name, which sounded just like Mr Shearer). As a surgeon she followed the practice adopted by her male counterparts and referred to herself as Miss. Anyway all went well, and I was so relieved when she told me that surgery would not be required, that when she asked me if I would like her to check my prostate while I was there, I quite happily concurred.

(My prostate was fine as well!)

[India Four Two]

Over the years that I used to visit my Mother in a village in deepest Dorset, I met most of her neighbours at various social functions. There was one very pleasant chap, who had no airs and graces, who was a retired General from a famous infantry regiment. He did not use his rank amongst his neighbours, but his much younger, second wife always referred to him as The General and was most insistent that all and sundry should use his rank when referring to him. As a consequence, she was known, behind her back, as Mrs. General!

[Hydromet]

Re surgeons being called "Mister"
... when she asked me if I would like her to check my prostate while I was there, I quite happily concurred.

(My prostate was fine as well!)

Pleased to hear that the update was good news.

When SIL obtained his PhD, he jokingly told his father, a consultant rheumatologist, that now there was a real doctor in the family. His father then revealed that he also had a PhD. It had lain there unnoticed by his family among his other qualifications.

[PapaDolmio]

This thread just gets better and better...

I have the misfortune to deal with the Department for Transport on a daily basis and the latest thing appears to be including gender identity after your name in the signature block:

Regards

Papadolmio (He/ Him)

[NutLoose]

Can you not put He/Man. By the powers of greyskull...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8h8snfYidg

[PapaDolmio]

I suppose you could, might be accused of body shaming though and not sure whether He-Man is inclusive enough nowadays.

I did wonder about being a bit mischievious and start using it on my company emails just to see how long it took to work it's way through the company- the danger being that I might be seen to be taking the p**s and end up on a inclusivity course or something.

[ExSp33db1rd]

One of our North Atlantic Barons - the early Captains who were ex WWII bomber pilots - sternly admonished me when as a lowly S/O - Nav. on a Stratocruiser I attracted the co-pilots attention by calling him by his Christian name - We DO NOT use christian names on the flight deck MR XXXXXXXX said the Captain. When eventually gaining command myself, I would introduce myself to the crew by saying that I didn't have a Knighthood, my name was ( Christian name ) and point out that if they were uncomfortable with that, then whilst on duty I was indeed "Captain" but in the bar that night I was ( Christian name )

A psychiatrist died and upon reaching the Pearly Gates St.Peter welcomed him with the words " I'm glad you've come, we're having a little trouble wit God, he thinks he's a BOAC Captain."

[dctyke]

I was leaving Incirlic HQ back in the 90s the day after a new Prowler Sqn had arrived. The whole lot of aircrew were in the car park for their arrival brief. The Colonel brought the whole sqn to attention and saluted me. I went over stood to attention, saluted him and explained I was a OR 9 for future reference. In a southern drawl he said, ‘hey, you’ve done the time and with a badge like that you sure do deserve it’ and shook my hand!

[Asturias56]

Classy. If I had the GC, the ribbon would even be on my pyjamas!

CG

I suspect that he , like some VC's , just never , ever, wanted to relive the events of the day/hour/seconds it took him to earn the medal

[Deltasierra010]

You almost never hear it these days, certainly not as a means of the individual trying to gain personal advantage, 50 yrs ago it was common enough for a manager to be Major this or Captain that, or an estate owner to be the Brigadier or General.
These days uniformed types dress down into mufti immediately in the UK and don’t use their title, there are disadvantages to that, knowing in advance who you are speaking to influences what you say.

[charliegolf]

I suspect that he , like some VC's , just never , ever, wanted to relive the events of the day/hour/seconds it took him to earn the medal

Absolutely. Seems to be the way with all these individuals.

CG

[anson harris]

Why? well he was an ex Able Seaman and hated officers, especially RAF ones :) Silly little man.

So you were outranked?

[OKOC]

Ignoring the VSOs in business angle it does seem to be a peculiarly army thing - going into the pub and asking ‘is the Squadron Leader here?’ would be met with blank looks.
Not quite true Mr Scott cos in my pub everyone knows I'm a Sqn Ldr (retd) so no blank looks for me!

Best
OKOC
Sqn Ldr (ret'd)

[Mogwi]

Reminds one of George Bernard Shaw's quip: "Titles distinguish the mediocre, embarrass the superior, and are disgraced by the inferior."

It was my privilege to count amongst my friends Cecil Lewis (Sagittarius Rising), who not only flew in both wars but also became one of the founding fathers of the BBC. He was great friends with GBS, who used to hold soirees for the great and interesting at his London home, in the 20's and 30's.

At one such gathering, Cecil fell into conversation with an interesting chap who had spent some time in the Middle East and afterwards, walked him to Paddington to catch his train home. As he took his leave, he said the fellow "I am sorry, old chap, I didn't catch your name". The reply was a smile followed by "Oh, it's Lawrence".

[Ken Scott]

This thread just gets better and better...

I have the misfortune to deal with the Department for Transport on a daily basis and the latest thing appears to be including gender identity after your name in the signature block:

Regards

Papadolmio (He/ Him)

Not only in dealings with the DfT. I understand ‘stating your pronouns’ is now creeping into usage in emails within the RAF.

[OKOC]

So you were outranked?
Ouch, sensitive there I feel.

[PapaDolmio]

Not only in dealings with the DfT. I understand ‘stating your pronouns’ is now creeping into usage in emails within the RAF.
Nooooooooooo!

Ref the VC/GC, was it not Bill Speakman who said something along the lines of 'winning it was easy, living up to it is harder'.

My 'favourite' VC of WW2 is John Kennealy aka Leslie Robinson, who won the VC in Tunisia whilst in the Irish Guards having deserted from the Royal Artillery. Look him up, it's quite a story.

[Odanrot]

When I was still serving, my wife and I were in a country restaurant celebrating our wedding anniversary and when we were ordering our desert the waitress took the order and retired, only to reappear quite quickly and inform me that there was only one of what I had ordered left and the “Wing Commander” always had that. As she spoke she nodded towards a table in the bay window where an older, white haired, moustachioed, rather noisy gent was sitting with a group. I paused, looked at the menu again and then said, “well, you can tell the Wing Commander that the other Wing Commander is having it tonight.”
And I did.

[Union Jack]

When I was still serving, my wife and I were in a country restaurant celebrating our wedding anniversary and when we were ordering our desert the waitress took the order and retired, only to reappear quite quickly and inform me that there was only one of what I had ordered left and the “Wing Commander” always had that. As she spoke she nodded towards a table in the bay window where an older, white haired, moustachioed, rather noisy gent was sitting with a group. I paused, looked at the menu again and then said, “well, you can tell the Wing Commander that the other Wing Commander is having it tonight.”
And I did.

My congratulations on your excellent choice of words when a lesser English scholar might so easily have said "getting" rather than "having"....

Jack

[Checkboard]

Well, it was his anniversary. :)

Checkboard,
Officer Cadet (k'kd out),
Captain (A'line), :D

[Nil_Drift]

Just prior to leaving the RAF on redundancy in 1996, I attended a resettlement course at Catterick and stayed in the Mess at RAF Leeming. There was a thoroughly decent, much older, chap on the course who, on asking his name, replied "Win".
We commuted together for the next two weeks in his Rover SD1 and helped each other in our new found hobby of Furniture Restoration. It was only in much later conversation with a Kipper Fleet (18 Gp) mate that I discovered who he was. Air Marshal Sir John Harris, KCB, CBE was still AOC 18 Gp at the time but was evidently readying himself for civilian life in all respects. Maximum respect!

[OR72a]

A few years ago driving back from Virginia Beach to Washington on official business (well someone had to do it) I was running late and as time was getting on I decided to try and get a room at Langley AFB. On enquiring I was told there were no rooms available so I asked if they had any arrangements with local motels. They had and so the young lady behind the desk asked me who I was. Wing Commander............ She seemed somewhat surprised and rather flustered and said that rooms were available in the VSO block and would I like a suite. So I spent a very comfortable night with breakfast cooked personally for me en suite. It obviously dawned on me that in USAF terms Wing Commander is a job title rather than a rank. So it can work very well!

[srjumbo747]

My congratulations on your excellent choice of words when a lesser English scholar might so easily have said "getting" rather than "having"....

Jack
And the use of desert rather than dessert!
One would have hoped for better from a Wing Commander!

[Le Chiffre]

Anyone who uses their rank on retirement is a complete and utter throbber.

The same goes for Drs who change their passport and bank details - I mean outside of the hospital no-one gives a toss that you are a Dr.

[DC10RealMan]

When I was posted to Heathrow in the late 1970s we had an elderly Polish chap who worked as a junior administrator amending and keeping up to date our training manuals. He had been a civilian for many years but had been a decorated fighter pilot at Northolt during the Battle of Britain. We all called him "Sir" and meant it!

[Ridger]

Anyone who uses their rank on retirement is a complete and utter throbber. The same goes for Drs who change their passport and bank details - I mean outside of the hospital no-one gives a toss that you are a Dr.

Quite.

As for honourary doctorate recipients who uses the title Dr... Can we also add people who include 'BSc (Hons)' on their e-mail signatures into this category?

[Union Jack]

And the use of desert rather than dessert!
One would have hoped for better from a Wing Commander!
Indeed, but perhaps there was a subconscious desire to avoid any suggestion of joining the "pudding club"!:suspect:

Meanwhile, back at The White House https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-there-a-doctor-in-the-white-house-not-if-you-need-an-m-d-11607727380

Jack

[beardy]

Quite.

As for honourary doctorate recipients who uses the title Dr... Can we also add people who include 'BSc (Hons)' on their e-mail signatures into this category?
No it's totally different. A BSc can be achieved with or without honours, both take a lot of hard work, neither are a given.

[Odanrot]

And the use of desert rather than dessert!
One would have hoped for better from a Wing Commander!
Obviously you never found out, but, as a lot of people find on forums there’s nothing to match a fat finger when you’re typing.

[Jack D]

And the use of desert rather than dessert!
One would have hoped for better from a Wing Commander!

wrong ! “ pudding” is the only acceptable word for those aspiring to be a member of the officer class.

Yours Aye, Jack D .
Colonel rtd.

[MPN11]

My former (civilian) neighbour here found it appropriate to have his personal cheques embellished with “MBE” after his name.

Weird, but obviously not an exclusively military affectation.

[RetiredBA/BY]

On the subject of doctors. The degree is five years, the first three or four ( can’t remember now ) gains a BA or BSc medicine and the last year the MD I seem to remember

it seems the army is possibly the biggest culprit my father told me a tale of a cruise they went on a couple of years ago, with a gentlemen who insisted on being called captain all the time and was generally an arse... hat on no talking etc which meant little to those around him.




Can cause confusion !
My young sister got her PHd, in a medical science so Dr ........
Then went to med. school for her medical degree, So she was a med student as a DR. Result, some confusion amongst her tutors and student colleagues.

Been cruising for years, never used the term Captain in my name.
Last year a QF captain on our cruise did, result was upgrading etc. Etc. Might try it when cruising resumes !

[Jack D]

Can cause confusion !
My young sister got her PHd, in a medical science so Dr ........
Then went to med. school for her medical degree, So she was a med student as a DR. Result, some confusion amongst her tutors and student colleagues.

Been cruising for years, never used the term Captain in my name.
Last year a QF captain on our cruise did, result was upgrading etc. Etc. Might try it when cruising resumes !

The title Doktor,Doktor or Doktor Professor or even Frau Doktor Professor , for spouses , is alive and well in Austria and parts of the Fatherland. understandably they seem to be a little wary when using military rank as a title.
Quite entertaining to go on line to book a concert ticket at the Vienna opera ; the choice of titles is wonderful, from Admiral down. A fantasists dream , but it’s taken seriously and why not ?

[Bill Macgillivray]

Does it really matter? If it makes some folk happy and does no harm to anyone else, where is the problem? Personally, I see no point in it ! Most of us here have done our time in service to Queen and Country, and, whatever rank you ended up as, are now civilians with great memories (and, just possibly, a slightly different outlook on life!)

Bill

[DaveJ75]

No it's totally different. A BSc can be achieved with or without honours, both take a lot of hard work, neither are a given.

I wouldn't go so far as totally different; surely achieving a senior rank also isn't a given and takes a lot of hard work? In my opinion that hard work earns you the right to not need to use former rank or post-nominals, aside from highly specific circumstances.

As for the ridiculous practice of stating a Bachelor degree post-nominal on an email signature... do people even still do that? This level of qualification is hardly rare nowadays.

[trim it out]

As for the ridiculous practice of stating a Bachelor degree post-nominal on an email signature... do people even still do that? This level of qualification is hardly rare nowadays.
It's very prevalent in the RAF, compared to the other two forces.

[NutLoose]

[QUOTE=Le Chiffre;10974534]Anyone who uses their rank on retirement is a complete and utter throbber.

The same goes for Drs who change their passport and bank details - I mean outside of the hospital no-one gives a toss that you are a Dr.[/QUOT

That depends on if you’re lying in front of a car wreck, choking in a restaurant, or collapsed in an airliner..... as for Doctors giving up DR when they retire, they probably never do in real life and will go to help if called for.

[Ken Scott]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveJ75
As for the ridiculous practice of stating a Bachelor degree post-nominal on an email signature... do people even still do that? This level of qualification is hardly rare nowadays.
It's very prevalent in the RAF, compared to the other two forces.

Possibly because degrees are much less common in the other two forces...?!

[Jack D]

A senior consultant in the medical profession is referred to as Mister or Ms.
I always wondered why this is so ? One of those peculiarly British descriptive nouns designed to confuse outsiders, like public schools or roundabouts.

[Easy Street]

A senior consultant in the medical profession is referred to as Mister or Ms.
I always wondered why this is so ? One of those peculiarly British descriptive nouns designed to confuse outsiders, like public schools or roundabouts.

All UK doctors start out as Mr/Mrs/Miss until they graduate from medical school, at which point they all become Dr. They then train in their specialisms. Those who have chosen to become surgeons revert to Mr/Mrs/Miss when they pass their surgical training. They remain so titled when they become consultant surgeons. All other specialisms remain titled Dr throughout their careers, including when they become consultants. The Royal College of Surgeons explains the difference here (https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/patient-care/surgical-staff-and-regulation/qualifications-of-a-surgeon/#Why).

[Jack D]

Thanks for the explanation ES . Tradition yet again

[Clinton McKenzie]

I recall participating in a Queen's Colour Parade at RAAF Richmond in the mid 80s. The invitation to the function afterwards was addressed to: "Officers and their ladies, Non-Commissioned Officers and their wives, and Airmen and their women..."

Nobody (Rtd)

[halas]

On a flight from Sydney to Coolangatta, our Purser (very senior and post middle age) was confronted by an elderly couple whilst boarding.

The woman said to the Purser: "The Captain would very much like to be seated in rows one or two. With his wife!"

Leonie, the Puser, quickly retorted, "There is only one captain on this flight and he he is not moving back to rows one or two!"

"Tell the Captain, and his wife, row 23 on the right."

[blind pew]

Those that speak forms of German have the quaint way of showing possession by their wives using their titles.
Sitting on a remote stand I noticed a limo draw up at the aircraft steps and out popped one of the companies VIP ladies in all of her finery.
Head appeared around cockpit door “Captain you have Frau Doktor ###### the chancellor’s wife on board” so put down my coffee (China cup) and Blick newspaper, climbed out of seat and put on jacket and hat to greet the lady.
”Guten tag” and was treated to a look as though I was her husbands eastern block chauffeur which isn’t that far from the reality when I discovered that she was in cattle class.
Cheapskate who has used hubbies dubious title (business studies) to access VIP services and get a free upgrade on a shopping trip.
Obviously VIP services weren’t having any of it but put her just behind the divider so that she could see the business class so thought I would have a bit of fun. Walked down the cabin “Ahh Doktor I have kopf shmerz, can you give me something for it”.
The bemused look turned to worried as the penny sunk that this nutter was going to be in charge of the aircraft descending into her mountainous homeland.
Needless to say no VIP service to meet her the other end and we missed the mountains.

[trim it out]

Possibly because degrees are much less common in the other two forces...?!

Possibly.

Still not sure what it brings to the party on an email signature though. Then again, I dislike all the little pictures and quotes people put in their signatures too. Just your rank, unit, and contact details should be enough as it saves all the bandwidth and endless scrolling to get to the actual point of the email.

[Georg1na]

If you have earned it and want to use it - use it.

[mad_collie]

Possibly.

Still not sure what it brings to the party on an email signature though. Then again, I dislike all the little pictures and quotes people put in their signatures too. Just your rank, unit, and contact details should be enough as it saves all the bandwidth and endless scrolling to get to the actual point of the email.
Strange. The correspondence I get have the signature block at the bottom, after the point of the email.

[charliegolf]

The OU address me with BSc. Nice, hardly anyone else knows.

CG

[revik]

Re 'Doctor' and 'Mister'. I understood that the distinction dated back to the 18th century with the emergence of an academically qualified Doctor-class while the real meat-cleaving surgery was left in the hands of barbers and anyone else who fancied a go. The 'Doctors' refused to acknowledge (or admit into their exalted ranks) 'the others' and therefore 'the others' remained plain 'misters'.

[trim it out]

Strange. The correspondence I get have the signature block at the bottom, after the point of the email.

And when the email thread is 5+ messages long and people have excessive signatures with a quote from a leadership book they once saw on a reading list followed by some jpeg images of their special badge, unit crest or formation insignia and you have to scroll past it all on a mobile device to get to the actual information you need...?

Particularly unhelpful for those of us without the luxury of first world internet connections while doing the Queen's business.

[BEagle]

You'd have to go a long way to have a more ridiculous title than "His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, CBE, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular"

Although a certain Brize Station Commander came close, as I recall......

[treadigraph]

One taskette I used to have at work was preparing artwork for business cards - one guy had so many qualifications they wouldn't fit in the space available - quite an argument getting him to agree to ditch those that weren't absolutely relevant to his job. Other didn't want theirs included which was fine.

We had a number of ex Army and RAF people working with us, two Lieutenant Colonels and a Squadron Leader amongst them - rank only appeared on the employment history section of their CVs as it was germane to the work they were doing as part of our security and CTM service; threat analysis and so on. All really nice guys, miss working with them.

Treadigraph BA (Bugger All)

[treadigraph]

BEagle, wasn't Idi Amin King of Scotland as well?

[BEagle]

He claimed to be!

Mind you, I have more claim as I am a direct descendant of King James IV of Scotland, it seems!

A wee dram tomorrow on Burns Night, I think!

[DaveUnwin]

When I was the manager and Tug Master of the Black Mountains Gliding Club at Talgarth we had a steady stream of GSA, Navy and Army gliding expeditions, and also VSOs visiting our resident Air Commodore. No one ever used their rank, ever. It just wasn't done. The only thing the CFI and I cared about was "could they fly?" as Talgarth could be tricky, but always fun. They were invariably accomplished sailplane pilots, and relished the challenges. However, the bloke driving the radio at Shobdon liked to be called 'Commander' and could be 'difficult'. If I flew over in the Pawnee to tow home one of our gliders that hadn't quite managed to get back he never made it as easy as it should've been.

[NutLoose]

If you have earned it and want to use it - use it.

Rather like the SH pilot that used his degree in Geography to justify and insist on his placement of the gun pit on the edges of our campsite, even though we all knew it was in the wrong place and he was told to move it to where everyone thought it should have gone in the first place.
:E you could almost hear the gasps when he said this is where it needs to go and I should know, I’ve got a degree in geography.....

[NutLoose]

BEagle, wasn't Idi Amin King of Scotland as well?

Even when he went into “retirement” loyal followers used to ship him bananas, one wonders if Trump will be accorded such loyalty.

[racedo]

An acquantainces dad who has the rank, titles and the odd visit to the palace that could have been been added to his name never did.

During retirement in a Hampshire small town in the 90's he was known as "Dave" down the pub. A long bank holiday weekend when down there in his garden a daughter in law questioned about why he would not use his rank etc. It appears she wanted to boast of dad in law was xxxxx etc.

He thought about it for a second and said, 1st weekend I moved here I went to the pub, landlord asked my name and I said "David ............", I got asked David or Dave. I said "Dave" and that is what I have been known as ever since. They care whether I turn up to the pub for a quiz night and whether I help at the village fete.................. what I did before they know some of but I am still "Dave".

He had old money, quite a bit as well, but never gave the impression he had loads of it because he didn't believe in showing it. It was a virtue they instilled in the kids as well.

He would never condemn people using titles / rank but viewed it personally as I am "Dave / David or Mr", I don't need anything else because the people I am really important to already have titles for me "Husband / Dad / Uncle / Grandpa or Dave".

[Ridger]

Rather like the SH pilot that used his degree in Geography to justify and insist on his placement of the gun pit on the edges of our campsite, even though we all knew it was in the wrong place and he was told to move it to where everyone thought it should have gone in the first place.
:E you could almost hear the gasps when he said this is where it needs to go and I should know, I’ve got a degree in geography.....

A perfect example of the breed in question.

On reflection, these characters should continue to use titles and post-nominals - a pre-labelled problem is more efficient to deal with!

[Bayek Itsarumdu]

Well, It's a long time since I left the ranks and nowadays I would rather refrain from making reference to my service life, but the bloke at the local motor factors will just not let it go. "There you go, Chief", he announces as he plonks my new brake discs on the counter. How does he know? Or is it not just me? ;)

[Asturias56]

TBF it's not just the Military - fortunes have been bet on a colleague of mine - "when will he work the fact he went to Cambridge into a conversation with someone new"

Some spoilsports have taken to introducing "This is X - he went to Cambridge don;t you know"

[Two's in]

When I was the manager and Tug Master of the Black Mountains Gliding Club at Talgarth we had a steady stream of GSA, Navy and Army gliding expeditions, and also VSOs visiting our resident Air Commodore. No one ever used their rank, ever. It just wasn't done. The only thing the CFI and I cared about was "could they fly?" as Talgarth could be tricky, but always fun. They were invariably accomplished sailplane pilots, and relished the challenges. However, the bloke driving the radio at Shobdon liked to be called 'Commander' and could be 'difficult'. If I flew over in the Pawnee to tow home one of our gliders that hadn't quite managed to get back he never made it as easy as it should've been.

Many years ago, the BAOR Gliding club at Achmer Airfield (near Osnabruck) was run by a CFI who at the time, was an Army Air Corps Lance Corporal! Same as in your scenario above, lots of people on Gliding courses with a wide range of ranks, but he was the guy in charge and it was all first name terms. His credibility was established by him being an excellent instructor and and even better glider display pilot. I'm sure he was a terrible Lance Corporal though...

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am a retired RCN Reserve flag officer. The only time I use my rank with the postscript (ret), is when responding to official military correspondence, such as invitation to official events. I still start e-mails and letters to certain flag officers who I greatly respect with the the honorific "sir" and will continue to do so as a mark of my respect. A few officers who have worked for me do the same when addressing me. I tell them it is not necessary but most continue the practice. I would like to think that is because I have earned their respect and trust.

I never use my rank or even share the fact that I have served in the military with others unless directly asked the question. There is nothing, in my opinion, more annoying than retired officers who think they still matter.

[Slow Biker]

A couple of us used to attend meetings chaired by a civilian grade C1; his opening statement was he was a wg cdr equivalent, and often would remind us peasants. I met him again at a JP233 drop - 30 x SG357. There were some ux on the surface and evidence of failed secondaries sub surface, so quite an involved clearance task. We were having a team brief when himself turned up and casually announced that he would be accompanying the team onto the range. Afraid not says I. After a bit of to and fro out came "I am a wing commander equivalent and I say I am coming with you", so my objection to having an untrained civilian with us was overruled. It gave me almost child like pleasure to point out the line in the Range Orders that stated when the range was RED the EOD officer had sole authority and he would not be coming with us. And he didn't.

[Tankertrashnav]

pudding” is the only acceptable word for those aspiring to be a member of the officer class.

I know what you mean, but I always have a problem with that one. When I was a kid in Scotland, only those from the working class talked about pudding (pronounced "pudd'n"). Those who aspired to the higher classes were careful to talk about their "sweet". Then I moved South and actually became a member of said officer class and learned that the situation had to be reversed, and that the course at the end of the meal was known as "pudding".

Oh and don't get me started on "supper" (often pronounced "suppah"!) :suspect:

[Fareastdriver]

Being the equivalent of a Wing Commander an then a Group Captain soon after I started flying commercially there were a few perks in the civil passenger role. My BALPA card had my Captain rank on it and this was ideal for upgrades, anywhere and anyone.

I was flying from Thiefrow to Shanghai with a Chinese carrier but the check-in staff weren't interested as they worked for a separate contractor. As I boarded I presented my Chinese licence to the CA welcoming me and just before taxi I was invited to the big seats in the front of the cabin.

There's no point in having power if you can't abuse it.

[langleybaston]

Being the equivalent of a Wing Commander an then a Group Captain soon after I started flying commercially there were a few perks in the civil passenger role. My BALPA card had my Captain rank on it and this was ideal for upgrades, anywhere and anyone.

I was flying from Thiefrow to Shanghai with a Chinese carrier but the check-in staff weren't interested as they worked for a separate contractor. As I boarded I presented my Chinese licence to the CA welcoming me and just before taxi I was invited to the big seats in the front of the cabin.

There's no point in having power if you can't abuse it.

What is the "equivalent" of those ranks, other than army and RN? Pay same mess bills?

[mopardave]

Anyone who uses their rank on retirement is a complete and utter throbber.

The same goes for Drs who change their passport and bank details - I mean outside of the hospital no-one gives a toss that you are a Dr.

Quite agree. When Mopardave junior qualified as a Doctor, I asked out of curiosity would she be changing her bank details, passport etc to reflect her new found "status". Her reply, "why would I want to do that dad?" But then she was brought up to treat everyone with equal respect.

[Private jet]

Titles, military ranks past their use by date, medals etc are all a very poor substitute for money......

[Bill Macgillivray]

You have done it, you know (honestly), if you have done it well ! Does it now matter in the present time if you have to use a title that :- a) probably very few people recognise, and b) is well out of date with today's Service? By all means keep your memories (and many, many honourable events) but remember that they are now history! You are the one who knows!

[deja vu]

I understand it was a very common thing many years ago ( 150 or more) for the wealthy to buy a "commission" into the British military for a useless son. In later times I am told it was still possible to buy a title, I can't confirm this but maybe others can.

Anyway, the story goes that in the early 1980's a particular Cathay chap and his wife bought a title and referred to themselves as Lord and Lady Bracknell or some such. The yarn continues that one particular day at Heathrow's Cathay staff counter the ground staff were calling names, loudly as they did then, and handing out boarding passes in dribs and drabs. After a while in a very posh accent they were calling for Lady Bracknell, "I'm Lady Bracknell, I'm Lady Bracknell" came the equally posh reply only to be told "you're off" in an East London accent.

[The Oberon]

An acquantainces dad who has the rank, titles and the odd visit to the palace that could have been been added to his name never did.

During retirement in a Hampshire small town in the 90's he was known as "Dave" down the pub. A long bank holiday weekend when down there in his garden a daughter in law questioned about why he would not use his rank etc. It appears she wanted to boast of dad in law was xxxxx etc.

He thought about it for a second and said, 1st weekend I moved here I went to the pub, landlord asked my name and I said "David ............", I got asked David or Dave. I said "Dave" and that is what I have been known as ever since. They care whether I turn up to the pub for a quiz night and whether I help at the village fete.................. what I did before they know some of but I am still "Dave".

He had old money, quite a bit as well, but never gave the impression he had loads of it because he didn't believe in showing it. It was a virtue they instilled in the kids as well.

He would never condemn people using titles / rank but viewed it personally as I am "Dave / David or Mr", I don't need anything else because the people I am really important to already have titles for me "Husband / Dad / Uncle / Grandpa or Dave".

Are you sure his real name wasn't Rodney?

[taxydual]

Sometimes it can be useful. Many years ago, my oppo and myself were in a pub in the Chilterns, having a quiet drink. We were interrupted by a short, but portly, man in a state of alcoholic refreshment. He was a retired Squadron Leader and obviously had picked up the fact that oppo and myself were currently serving.

The Sqn Ldr (Retd) then proceeded to bore the pants of us with his 'swing the lamp' stories. After 20 minutes of oppo and self mumbling "Really" and "Interesting" every so often, we were then further joined by a tall, grey haired but very distinguished gentleman. He apologised for the interruption and told the Sqn Ldr (Retd) that one of two of his stories were wrong. The Sqn Ldr (Retd) took umbrage at this and drawing himself up to his full 5ft 4" height, declared that he was Sqn Ldr so and so and what did the newcomer know about the Royal Air Force. "Well" replied the newcomer "I'm Air Chief Marshal Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris".

Exit the Sqn Ldr (Retd) , at a fair rate of knots, blustering about "Lunch" and "Mustn't be late etc". After he had gone, Sir Christopher again apologised for the interruption, offered to buy both of us a drink (which we declined) and announced his departure. On donning his overcoat, he turned to us and said "I cannot stand bores". He wished us well and left.

[blind pew]

Buying titles
yes you could as my father had a mate from Canvey who collected a few, some had rights to grazing and other quaint medieval land rights.
I also had a flying school acquaintance who, 30 odd years ago, asked me about my frog coat of arms as he wanted to get an english one which, according to the press, he now has. His daughter and grand children have more substantial ones without the need to dream them up.

[treadigraph]

Reminded that a colleague of mine bought a Lordship for a laugh - a real character in the office and sadly no longer with us, he died from diabetes complications only aged about 40.

Didn't that well-known Walt who has featured on here in the past, claims to have been in the Paras, etc, etc, buy himself an Irish title? I'm sure he was the guy who inveigled himself into a conversation about Tornados I was having with a friend in a Croydon pub a decade or so back.

[Meikleour]

deja vue: The story is true except the offload was in BAH - I know because I was also offloaded with her that night!

[teeteringhead]

Exit the Sqn Ldr (Retd) , at a fair rate of knots, blustering about "Lunch" and "Mustn't be late etc". After he had gone, Sir Christopher again apologised for the interruption, offered to buy both of us a drink (which we declined) and announced his departure. On donning his overcoat, he turned to us and said "I cannot stand bores". He wished us well and left. Reminds me of one of the apochryphal tales of the Abandoned Earl.

Said officer (serving at the time) was having a quiet drink - and six or seven noisy ones - with his pilots in a Mess bar on detachment.

They were approached by a Self-Important Resident who told them to be quiet.

Abandoned Earl: F*** Off

Self Important One: I am Sqn Ldr Sir Algernon Bloggs DFC, and I'm telling you to be quiet!

Abandoned Earl: And I am Wg Cdr The Earl of Bandon DSO. Beat you on all three counts. Now f*** off!

[Hot 'n' High]

...... There is nothing, in my opinion, more annoying than retired officers who think they still matter.

:D:D:D:D Oh how I wish my ex-junior VSO "pal" could see this! He'd have a complete fit!!!!!

[NutLoose]

Hot and High, you're now deleted pointless add on reminds me of that troubleshooter programme where Sir John Harvey-Jones went into ailing companies, he visited one with an old works that was devoid of investment that was struggling to produce the goods, then he went next door into the brand new modern office block that had more staff than the works.

Upon asking people what you you do it soon became apparent they produced paperwork that shuttled around the various office departments and then was filed, most of it not actually attaining anything and none of it actually doing anything to support the core business nor generate income, in fact the direct opposite, it was bleeding the place dry.

[Hot 'n' High]

NL, I deleted it as I didn't wish to unnecessarily depress the good readers of PPRuNe!!!!! ;)

For those confused, my point was that, even when Serving, I soon realised a lot of projects I was asked to do (even with Staff specifically provided to work for me to do them) were, subsequently, never taken forward and that one is soon forgotten. So, all these people (even VSOs) who end up outside, proud of what they have achieved, don't realise (admit?) that the "new broom" who took over from them probably completely changed everything again.

What was that train of thought from so many, many MoD Staff over the decades? "Why is so-and-so changing this again as it finally works well? Ah, yes, they have to be seen to be doing something - even if, ultimately, it's just revolving the wheel 180 deg! Ah well, bo££ox, off we go again!!!!!". :sad:

[racedo]

Are you sure his real name wasn't Rodney?

LOL

His son said this on one occasion when OFAH in their heyday, only for the retort "I may be a bit of a plonker but I can still revise my will to leave it to the Peckham dogs home, trigger". Son got evil glares from siblings so ending that.

[racedo]

Some spoilsports have taken to introducing "This is X - he went to Cambridge don;t you know"

Have seen it used as "Cambridge / Harvard", 1st time a bit puzzled but it seemed to impress a lady he was chatting up. On crashing and burning he admitted after "yup he had been to Harvard and the day trip from Boston on a layover was worth every dime".

[Hydromet]

NL, I deleted it as I didn't wish to unnecessarily depress the good readers of PPRuNe!!!!! ;)

For those confused, my point was that, even when Serving, I soon realised a lot of projects I was asked to do (even with Staff specifically provided to work for me to do them) were, subsequently, never taken forward and that one is soon forgotten. So, all these people (even VSOs) who end up outside, proud of what they have achieved, don't realise (admit?) that the "new broom" who took over from them probably completely changed everything again.

What was that train of thought from so many, many MoD Staff over the decades? "Why is so-and-so changing this again as it finally works well? Ah, yes, they have to be seen to be doing something - even if, ultimately, it's just revolving the wheel 180 deg! Ah well, bo££ox, off we go again!!!!!". :sad:
The sadly recently deceased former Brigadier who was, as a Captain, my boss when I first went into the army, spent one part of his career reviewing stalled projects and either killing them or making them work. One that was still on the books, but stalled, had been initiated by one Bernard Montgomery, to standardise the headlight bulbs of all army trucks.

[EngAl]

When I was at Rheindahlen in the mid 80s we had our war headquarters in the caves at Maastricht. I went down there for the farewell do for the major who had commanded the signal group for 3 years. I asked him if he felt he'd achieved much during his time there. He said "You see that wall there, It's as if it's made of rubber and I've been pressing my shoulder against it for 3 years and I was halfway in and I've just stepped away and it's sprung back out" He was a great bloke and very switched on. Depressing.

[BFM]

On the subject of doctors. The degree is five years, the first three or four ( can’t remember now ) gains a BA or BSc medicine and the last year the MD I seem to remember

it seems the army is possibly the biggest culprit my father told me a tale of a cruise they went on a couple of years ago, with a gentlemen who insisted on being called captain all the time and was generally an arse... hat on no talking etc which meant little to those around him.

anyhoo one evening at the bar he swanned over to pops, who enquired which ship he commmaded hoping for a tail or two. He then replied that he was a captain in the royal logistics core. Pops commented that it really wasn’t the done thing to go on about your rank below major. To which the Captain got a tad upset and after which my father request he call him Sir on every occasion and afford him all the privileges of being a Retired Major or alternatively he could drop all this and be on first name basis...... it soon stopped
Completely wrong, I'm sorry to say. The medical degree stands alone as MB BS (or BCh) bachelor of medicine, bachelor of surgery, but if you do an intercalated degree it's a BSc normally. You do it in just one year. MD is the US equivalent. However if you qualify in Oxford or Cambridge you get a free MA too! After qualifying you may go on to further qualifications such as FRCS.
​​​

[favete linguis]

Universities are full of people with post nominals and interesting to note only on official responses do professors etc use full title. Rest of the time its all first name terms. All mine are aware I'm ex-service but its not a point for discussion and I don't raise it. This is work of a different requirement.

However, we have a number of people who insist on using their 'military' title on every email and letting everyone know they are 'military'. Their lack of respect towards myself and other ex-service people is directly proportional to their over inflated egos:

Wg Cdr Very Important BA (Hons) MBA MSc PGDE DMS DipIM MIMC, CMC FInstLM FCMI RAFVR(T) retd
Wg Cdr Quite Important BA (Hons) PGCE FInstLM MBILD TechIOSH RAFVR(T) retd
Flt Lt Notso Important MA(PP) MA (Law) BSc HNC CMgr FCMI Chartered FCIPD FInstLM FRSPH FRSA MRAeS RAFVR(T) retd

Are their ego's that fragile they need to do this?

Funny how the common theme being normal ex-mil don't discuss or broadcast it unless in appropriate company yet attention seekers like this are quite the opposite.

Speaks volumes.

[Bob Viking]

Whilst I am never going to achieve the kind of rank that would justify bragging about after my service I don’t begrudge it being used by those that have.

At the heart of it there may be a bit of arrogance, insecurity or even narcissism. It is also possible they are just very proud of what they managed to achieve.

We all join the services at the bottom of our respective ladders and climb to whichever rung suits our abilities and ambition. If you reach a higher rung and that was your ambition then good on you.

The last ex VSO I had any dealings with was a retired 4 Star. He was/is an absolutely brilliant bloke. His rank was germane to the situation but he didn’t push it. I still called him Sir anyway even when those around me didn’t.

My concern for a lot of posters here is that, by getting all worked up about it, you are probably showing your own insecurities more than anything.

If someone is a bellend it won’t matter what their rank once was. They will always be a bellend!

I say live and let live. But if they act like a prat then feel free to tell them, whoever they are.

BV

[MarcK]

One of the very few times I flouted my Ph.D. was immediatly after graduation, when my mother would introuce me as "my son, the doctor". Otherwise, you get about 24 hours of your collegues calling you "Dr. x". Then it's back to first names.

[NutLoose]

Whilst I am never going to achieve the kind of rank that would justify bragging about after my service I don’t begrudge it being used by those that have.

At the heart of it there may be a bit of arrogance, insecurity or even narcissism. It is also possible they are just very proud of what they managed to achieve.

We all join the services at the bottom of our respective ladders and climb to whichever rung suits our abilities and ambition. If you reach a higher rung and that was your ambition then good on you.

The last ex VSO I had any dealings with was a retired 4 Star. He was/is an absolutely brilliant bloke. His rank was germane to the situation but he didn’t push it. I still called him Sir anyway even when those around me didn’t.

My concern for a lot of posters here is that, by getting all worked up about it, you are probably showing your own insecurities more than anything.

If someone is a bellend it won’t matter what their rank once was. They will always be a bellend!

I say live and let live. But if they act like a prat then feel free to tell them, whoever they are.

BV



Well said Bob..

Nutloose GSM Retd

[Hot 'n' High]

....... But if they act like a prat then feel free to tell them, whoever they are. BV

:ok: And that, dear BV, can lead to untold levels of comedy!!! :E

[ORAC]

Nutloose GSM Retd
25 years during the Cold War and no gongs of any description. I now see some under 20 with a chest full - and don’t begrudge them at all as they earned every one of them. I just got out in time to watch my contemporaries being plucked out of our bunkers and sent to the sandpit.

I seem to recall a tale that, in the same era, there was an engineer VSO when was quite proud of the fact he had a bare chest, so to speak - then the bar stewards deliberately gave him a Jubilee medal....

[Ken Scott]

I seem to recall a tale that, in the same era, there was an engineer VSO when was quite proud of the fact he had a bare chest, so to speak - then the bar stewards deliberately gave him a Jubilee medal....

At a dining-in night at the old Secret Wiltshire Airbase I was mocked by some people at the pre-dinner drinks for wearing mine which I had only recently ‘earned’. How I laughed when all those deemed by the PMC to be ‘incorrectly dressed’ by not wearing theirs were fined a bottle of port...!

[toratoratora]

Reminds me of one of the apochryphal tales of the Abandoned Earl.

Said officer (serving at the time) was having a quiet drink - and six or seven noisy ones - with his pilots in a Mess bar on detachment.

They were approached by a Self-Important Resident who told them to be quiet.

Abandoned Earl: F*** Off

Self Important One: I am Sqn Ldr Sir Algernon Bloggs DFC, and I'm telling you to be quiet!

Abandoned Earl: And I am Wg Cdr The Earl of Bandon DSO. Beat you on all three counts. Now f*** off!

Paddy Bandon was something of a legend:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Bernard,_5th_Earl_of_Bandon
No lover of pomposity, for sure!
This is a great thread-I can think of so many anecdotes on this theme. As an ex-Crab, I do have to say that it is the ex-Grunts who are the worst culprits. My ex-wife’s current husband (long since retired from the RLC) insists on using ‘Major’ at every opportunity, even on his bank account, but then he is a bit of a t**t.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

This thread is a great read ! I came across so many pompous buffoons (despite being somewhat outdated it's still the best term for them), I think I had a form of PTSD for about 18 months after discharge and instantly pigeon holed any well spoken bod as a d**khead. It wasn't until I left for Nigeria that I realised some of them knew their onions.

Old school tie, rich parents trying to occupy their intellectually disappointing son, offspring of VSOs relying on Daddy's rep etc. Encountered many in my time.

Sgt Never Been Noticed REME Tech/Army Air Corps Pilot GSM Rtd

[Brewers Droop]

I think it’s appalling that rank is being used in this way.

By the way, did you realise I used to be a pilot in the RAF flying..............

[Hot 'n' High]

.... on using ‘Major’ at every opportunity ........... but then he is a bit of a star.

Fawlty Towers would just not have been the same without the Major - hence the amendment above!!!! :ok:

TBH, it is Basil himself who seems to "use" the Major's title just to "big up" his humble emporium - not the Major! And Ballard Blascheck played the part to perfection! Particularly due to some of those classics such as the Major hunting down the rat in the Bar, I always found myself having difficulty in keeping a straight face when first being introduced to Pongos of a certain Rank as that was how I pictured them ending up - totally unjustly of course. ;)

So, enjoy some pure non-PC nostalgia!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-fjZYEhtaM

[Tartiflette Fan]

One of the very few times I flouted my Ph.D. was immediately after graduation, when my mother would introduce me as "my son, the doctor".

The doctorate was presumably not for English language ? I think it's likely you mean "flaunt my Ph.D ": flouting it would be rather different.

[ShyTorque]

My wife’s uncle, who died about five years ago, was an interesting character. He retired as a colonel but never used his rank in civvie street as far as I’m aware. He was universally known as “Tinker”.

Tinker married my father in law’s sister. I only met him a couple of times, during my RAF days and although I once had quite a long conversation with him whilst out walking, he was more interested in talking about what I was doing than what he had done. I didn’t press him, although I knew he’d spent time in the SAS during WW2, probably because what questions I did ask were met with fairly short answers. I’d been told by his son that he’d once parachuted into enemy territory in Italy and landed in a tree, suspended over a stream. I was watching a TV documentary not long back and a similar story was mentioned, which prompted me to search again for his history.

I discovered that he’d been interviewed at some length by someone from the Imperial War Museum. Intriguing to listen to.

Here’s a link: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018711

[racedo]

My ex-wife’s current husband (long since retired from the RLC) insists on using ‘Major’ at every opportunity, even on his bank account, but then he is a bit of a t**t.

Give the guy a bit of credit though,marrying someone's ex wife does generate some sympathy.

[Non Linear Gear]

Fawlty Towers would just not have been the same without the Major - hence the amendment above!!!! :ok:

TBH, it is Basil himself who seems to "use" the Major's title just to "big up" his humble emporium - not the Major! And Ballard Blascheck played the part to perfection! Particularly due to some of those classics such as the Major hunting down the rat in the Bar, I always found myself having difficulty in keeping a straight face when first being introduced to Pongos of a certain Rank as that was how I pictured them ending up - totally unjustly of course. ;)

So, enjoy some pure non-PC nostalgia!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-fjZYEhtaM
Iberian hamster! ;)

[Cyberhacker]

Universities are full of people with post nominals and interesting to note only on official responses do professors etc use full title. Rest of the time its all first name terms. All mine are aware I'm ex-service but its not a point for discussion and I don't raise it. This is work of a different requirement.

Wg Cdr Very Important BA (Hons) MBA MSc PGDE DMS DipIM MIMC, CMC FInstLM FCMI RAFVR(T) retd
Wg Cdr Quite Important BA (Hons) PGCE FInstLM MBILD TechIOSH RAFVR(T) retd
Flt Lt Notso Important MA(PP) MA (Law) BSc HNC CMgr FCMI Chartered FCIPD FInstLM FRSPH FRSA MRAeS RAFVR(T) retd

Are their ego's that fragile they need to do this?

Funny how the common theme being normal ex-mil don't discuss or broadcast it unless in appropriate company yet attention seekers like this are quite the opposite.
Rank aside, this is not an issue specific to ex-mil.

As alluded to previously, my business cards do not include any of my pre- and post-nominal entitlements. So when someone hands me a business card with a list like the above, I tend to tick them off and add "oh, only Mxxx not Fxxx?" or "so you're not xxxx" etc

[Hot 'n' High]

Iberian hamster! ;)

Siberian even! :ok: The whole FT thing was comedy gold ... well, to me at least! ;)

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by toratoratora View Post (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/638155-using-rank-retirement-post10976539.html#post10976539)
My ex-wife’s current husband (long since retired from the RLC) insists on using ‘Major’ at every opportunity, even on his bank account, but then he is a bit of a t**t.

He's not the only one, President Biden's dog does too.. :E

[Bergerie1]

During the British Raj in India issues of precedence between Indians and British sometimes caused problems. The College of Heralds in London once noted, "The Agha Khan is held by his followers to be a direct descendant of God. English Dukes take precedence."

[Old-Duffer]

Into the village in which I live came a retired Lt Col and on his first trip to the local alehouse he was asked what he did. His reply was something along the lines that he had just retired from the army. Asked his rank, he played the 'telephone colonel' bit by saying he was a colonel and then started to hog the conversation with quite a bit of 'when I was in ........'. The next time he came into the pub some wagg called out to him 'hey corporal' to which he was quite affronted but never tried the colonel bit again.

Old Duffer

[JENKINS]

Nice to see, Shy Torque, a reference to a character, now dead, from the village in which I have lived since 1993. Tinker proved to be the sole individual in the village who would bother to give time of day to self and wife as we strolled around its environs. For so many, the presence in their midst of a low-ranking Welsh military retiree, me, a Socialist Roman Catholic to boot, was too much to bear, and it quickly became apparent. In relation to the topic, it must be possible to live one's life story by actions, as did Tinks, rather than by the assumption of a rank. I found a startling example of this during my working life when I was told that a colleague was now a Lord. Simple, buy the Lordship of a Manor, but in doing so beware the obscure obligations which may be involved.

[Sideshow Bob]

Originally Posted by Bob Viking
....... But if they act like a prat then feel free to tell them, whoever they are. BV
:ok: And that, dear BV, can lead to untold levels of comedy!!! :E
...and may be the main reason I never attained a rank worthy of mentioning (as my boss said "Please don't tell the AOC to shut up again").

[Mad Monk]

I do not to approve as those that do use previous titles tend, in my experience, to be self-important arseholes.
My father was Head Maltster for a family run brewery, members of said family insisted on Wing-Co and Sqn-Ldr,
when my father was finally de-mobbed it was as a Lt-Col, he never ever used any title, other than Mr.

[langleybaston]

Originally Posted by Bob Viking
....... But if they act like a prat then feel free to tell them, whoever they are. BV

...and may be the main reason I never attained a rank worthy of mentioning (as my boss said "Please don't tell the AOC to shut up again").

"every organisation needs about one or none like you, LB. I am not sure which!"

[Non Linear Gear]

"every organisation needs about one or none like you, LB. I am not sure which!"
Not hard to fathom why.

[DODGYOLDFART]

I have found this thread quite interesting and informative and particularly so as a person who has gained advanced academic qualifications and is entitled to be addressed as "Doctor". I have not used the term for a very long time and most people either address me by my Christian name or as Mister if they don't know otherwise. Just like military ranks and titles in the services have a purpose so do civilian ones like manager, supervisor, director, etc.. However when a civilian stands down, gets fired or retires the rank or title ends at that point. So why not the military ones?

Just a couple of maybe useful points. I admit to using the title Doctor when I have anything to do with the Health Service or medical things in general. I have two reason and the first is using the title Doctor more or less ensures that I will be treated as a person of some intelligence rather than that of the Village Idiot. Secondly my age - now in my ninth decade sometimes I feel that being over 80 can mean being treated as someone with a mental age of two who should be parked in the old folks home.

Finally regarding the Health Service. If you are an ex-service person do make sure that you GP and the local health practice have your records marked accordingly. The reason is that we are supposed to given a "priority service". I do not know whether or not this works across the UK but I have seen it work here in West Wales regarding hearing problems, hip and knee problems.

[Dave Gittins]

I have never been in the military so have no idea why those who have see it necessary to use a title they no longer hold or need. The master of the foxhounds I had to deal with in my water main laying days in Cheshire was one who insisted on being Captain Something .... and talking with a ridiculous plummy accent that just got up everybody's nose. I was also led to understands that ex military men are permitted to call themselves by a rank one higher than they actually served with. And those with a problem with the pompous "Captain" would mutter that he only ever held the substantive rank of Lieutenant.

However, to my real question, I spend some time in the USA and it amazes me how may people have car number plate surrounds or wear caps that say "I fought in Vietnam" or "Ex Marine Corps" etc. (usually followed by "and proud of it"; which I am happy they are entitled to be.)

Surely that sort of blatant advertising is just asking to be a potential target of the ungodly ?

[XL189]

I am reminded of something I experienced many years ago when I left the RAF.
On the first day of my new job I wasn't the only new starter and it was obvious there were a few ex-service people about to embark on their new civilian career path.
The conversation followed the usual path, who are you, where did you serve, what did you do, rank etc.....

There was one buffoon who informed me because I used to be 3 ranks lower than him he commanded more respect from me and that he would be held in higher esteem than me in the new job!
He was very quickly put in his place!

Oh how I chortled!

[Ken Scott]

That reminds me of someone I knew who left as a Sqn Ldr and joined a well known airline as a FO. He would tell everyone he flew with that anyone who didn’t make his former rank was frankly not worth recruiting as a pilot to the airline. I heard this via one of his captains who formerly was ‘just’ a Lt in the FAA...

[DODGYOLDFART]

I have never been in the military so have no idea why those who have see it necessary to use a title they no longer hold or need. The master of the foxhounds I had to deal with in my water main laying days in Cheshire was one who insisted on being Captain Something .... and talking with a ridiculous plummy accent that just got up everybody's nose. I was also led to understands that ex military men are permitted to call themselves by a rank one higher than they actually served with. And those with a problem with the pompous "Captain" would mutter that he only ever held the substantive rank of Lieutenant.

However, to my real question, I spend some time in the USA and it amazes me how may people have car number plate surrounds or wear caps that say "I fought in Vietnam" or "Ex Marine Corps" etc. (usually followed by "and proud of it"; which I am happy they are entitled to be.)

Surely that sort of blatant advertising is just asking to be a potential target of the ungodly ?

Another small but perhaps relevant fact concerning the USA. For some years I worked for a major US business with interests in the armament world in which I was involved. Twice a group of us went off to a desert somewhere in the USA to test out our latest gizmos. Each time I had to go through the chore of having my equivalent military rank established. The first time I was a line manager and was assessed as Lt. Col. equivalent. The second time about three years later and now a senior line manager I got uprated to full Col. When I bleated about that to my boss as other colleagues were rank equivalent generals he said are but you still have a British passport!!

The purpose of this equivalent rank exercise was to sort out messing facilities.

Come on guys there must be more of you out there who have had to put up with worse nonsenses.

[NutLoose]

However, to my real question, I spend some time in the USA and it amazes me how may people have car number plate surrounds or wear caps that say "I fought in Vietnam" or "Ex Marine Corps" etc. (usually followed by "and proud of it"; which I am happy they are entitled to be.)

Surely that sort of blatant advertising is just asking to be a potential target of the ungodly ?

Probably safer than "I work in congress" on your plate.

[Union Jack]

I have never been in the military so have no idea why those who have see it necessary to use a title they no longer hold or need. The master of the foxhounds I had to deal with in my water main laying days in Cheshire was one who insisted on being Captain Something .... and talking with a ridiculous plummy accent that just got up everybody's nose. I was also led to understands that ex military men are permitted to call themselves by a rank one higher than they actually served with. And those with a problem with the pompous "Captain" would mutter that he only ever held the substantive rank of Lieutenant.

However, to my real question, I spend some time in the USA and it amazes me how may people have car number plate surrounds or wear caps that say "I fought in Vietnam" or "Ex Marine Corps" etc. (usually followed by "and proud of it"; which I am happy they are entitled to be.)

Surely that sort of blatant advertising is just asking to be a potential target of the ungodly ?

On the basis of what has been explained at least once in earlier posts, the Master is quite entitled to style himself so if he is operating in a truly equine environment and, to be fair, probably can't help speaking in the manner in which he was brought up, whether he was brought up at Eton or eaten and brought up!:yuk:

I have seen it suggested a few times that retired officers can assume one rank higher on retirement, but it is certainly not the case so far as the Royal Navy is concerned. The Captain of the Heads wouldn't dream of it....:D

Jack

[BEagle]

The use of rank titles after retirement was much more normal back around the time I joined the RAF. In the local pub a retired RN Cdr and a retired RAF Sqn Ldr would often call in - it was quite normal for them to be addressed so rather than as 'Mr.'

But the threat of terrorism over the following years meant that we were discouraged from using rank titles in correspondence or being seen out and about in uniform. So what was once normal simply faded out.

It's becoming common once again to see people in the local area in uniform and if they wish to be known by their rank when they retire, then so be it.

[Hot 'n' High]

.... and if they wish to be known by their rank when they retire, then so be it.

BEags, I don't think many here would begrudge that one bit - it's actually quite nice to have deserving characters down the local or such like. It's just when they start lording it around as if they were still in the Services .... the "I'm a VSO so what I say will happen!" type. I've seen a most spectacular example of that taking place in business. It didn't end well - for the ex-VSO!!!! :ok:

Of course, it's not just the Mil who plays that game. I knew a retired Bank Manager who, for any issue in the village, would often say "Well, when I was a Bank Manager....." ....... which was really odd if it were suggesting things for the cake stall at the local Church fete or similar! The fact they were pretty clueless (it was a while ago when they worked for the Bank) made it all the more amusing.

Fortunately, never made it anywhere myself so I just observe by peering out from under my rock! H 'n' H knows his place!!!!! ;)

[spitfirek5054]

Well I reached the dizzy heights of Corporal [Airframe Techie] :)

[DODGYOLDFART]

Well I reached the dizzy heights of Corporal [Airframe Techie] :)
Without guys like you FA would have ever got airborne. Good on ya.

[Hot 'n' High]

Without guys like you FA would have ever got airborne. Good on ya.

The poor sod could have been a Fairy! Like me!!!!! :}

[srjumbo747]

Folks. One of the funniest shows on British TV is Dad’s Army.
The fact that Capt Mainwairing was also the bank manager and he loved both titles sums up these people you are all writing about.
These type of characters are what makes Great Britain great!

[spitfirek5054]

The poor sod could have been a Fairy! Like me!!!!! :}

Nah,was a Rigger

[XL189]

The poor sod could have been a Fairy! Like me!!!!!

And me! :8

[Hot 'n' High]

Nah,was a Rigger

As XL189 and I both know, having answered "Fairy" to the question "What are you in the Mob then?" down the Local or at the Disco, no amount of "bigging up" the job and explaining just how "vital our jobs really were" could restore the slightest vestige of credibility! I finally worked out it was not the ideal "chat-up line" to impress the fairer sex with!!!! :O

Suspect Rigger sounded a bit more appealing to the ladies!!!!!!!! :} Of course, there was a Pipe when along side in Sydney in 1986 "Would the Sea Harrier pilot called Snodgrass report to the Aft brow!" where a young Aussie damsel had shown up. A rather embarrassed AEM Snodgrass was seen heading aft to try and explain!!!! Oh how we laughed! Happy daze! :ok:

[PICKS135]

BEags, I don't think many here would begrudge that one bit - it's actually quite nice to have deserving characters down the local or such like. It's just when they start lording it around as if they were still in the Services .... the "I'm a VSO so what I say will happen!" type. I've seen a most spectacular example of that taking place in business. It didn't end well - for the ex-VSO!!!! :ok:

Of course, it's not just the Mil who plays that game. I knew a retired Bank Manager who, for any issue in the village, would often say "Well, when I was a Bank Manager....." ....... which was really odd if it were suggesting things for the cake stall at the local Church fete or similar! The fact they were pretty clueless (it was a while ago when they worked for the Bank) made it all the more amusing.

Fortunately, never made it anywhere myself so I just observe by peering out from under my rock! H 'n' H knows his place!!!!! ;)

Even worse the old letters after the name. Was once 'invited' for a discussion without tea & biccys with my civilian boss. Nice new nameplate on the door with letters after his name. Thought to myself must be a Professional qualification, having never seen them before anywhere. At the end of the 'discussion' I inquired as to the meaning of the letters. Without batting an eyelid he informed me it was 'Member of the ****** arts society'. Nothing to do with the job we were doing then :rolleyes:

[Private jet]

Theres an old bit of wisdom regarding ranks and titles; " If you can't do without it, you were never any good with it".