London City-4

[GLCYZ]

Switchover to the new digital air traffic control tower (controlled from NATS Swanwick) is scheduled for this Saturday 23rd January, with a backup date of 30th January.

[WHBM]

How much of the "new stuff" is actually complete/in use now ? Full length taxyway ? Additional gates ? The new stands appeared to come on line a while ago.

Was that obstructing baggage building in the middle of the existing ramp a complete waste ?

[GLCYZ]

The parallel taxiway, eight new stands and new temporary immigration facility are complete and in use. Second phase (further apron expansion, additional gates, expanded terminal, decked car park etc) is on hold indefinitely until passenger numbers pick up.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Wasn't this needed to accomodate the expansion that's been delayed? Always saw this as a ploy by NATS to stop LCY from using another provider IMHO.

BTW surely it's only *four* new remote stands, 25-28? How did we get to eight?

[WHBM]

Any gate provision on the new stands, or are they bus gates ?

The rebuilding of the traditional gates 3-10 some years ago was done very nicely, and they are a pleasure to use at the upper level (still a squish down below). The newer gates 21-24 in the opposite direction, in comparison are austere in the extreme.

[BA318]

Bus gates sadly which is very annoying for such short distances.

[whitelighter]

In a UK first, LCY air traffic operations successfully moved to the remote digital control room at Swanwick on Saturday Jan 23rd

[WHBM]

After an almost dead three months, with only the LOT flight to Vilnius on some days, things seem to be creeping back. BA have started up Dusseldorf as well as Belfast and Frankfurt, KLM have restarted, Luxair seem to be more regular. Hopefully the trend will continue.

[BA318]

That’s good. In disappointing news, the plan for the new Alitalia will see the airline get rid of their Embraer aircraft so they probably won’t be returning to LCY.

[davidjohnson6]

I am a little dubious about demand on routes to Dusseldorf and Frankfurt - airlines are required to verify that pax have proof of a recent negative test prior to allowing passenger to board the aircraft when flying to Germany
Yes, a test can be achieved, but it deters all but the most necessary of journeys

[BA318]

Thats the case for almost all destinations at the moment and has been for some time now. It’s likely to also be the case for a while going forward. It’s not hard to get a test. You can even do it in the LCY terminal.

[The96er]

Although it may be easier to get a test, it still acts as a deterrent to travel which is what davidjohnson6 was stating.

[WHBM]

Frankfurt has been running all through winter/spring, albeit just a few times a week, which would not have been done if not worthwhile.

[cavokblues]

I see Ego Airways have been awarded slots although not sure if they will actually operate a route to the airport.

[Tranceaddict]

BACF starting JER & GIB from 25th June

[BA318]

Both twice weekly with E190. I’m surprised NQY wasn’t added as well. Given domestic travel might end up one of the few options available to many.

[richardwpprn]

It appears CJ has extended some peak July August seasonal flights into Sept/Oct.

[RA85684]

That's correct, I've just treated myself to CE on JSI-LCY for 1st October which wasn't on sale when I first looked a few weeks ago. Very reasonable pricing as well compared to the other one-way options back from JSI-UK

Glad to see the season extended!

[nguba]

BACF is due to restart Edinburgh tomorrow.

[BA318]

BACF are launching LCY- Guernsey twice weekly (Friday and Monday) from 25th June.

[WHBM]

Swiss A220 came through this evening, Noticed the distinctive howl as it was climbing out. LX464/5 from and to Zurich. Is this the first Swiss, and the first A220, this year ? Next one apparently on Sunday.

[WHBM]

More than a little stormy today, and the morning inbound from Belfast, after two missed approaches, had to go to Gatwick, further missed approach before getting in second time around there. Is this the first EGLC diversion of 2021 ?

Separately, after nothing all day the current BA timings have the four remaining BA flights leaving within minutes of one another at 17.00. They are all scheduled back in at the same time as well, around 20.30. Is there any operational reason why, with nothing else to do all day, they are all run together ?

[AirLCY]

Schedule driven by passenger demand rather than operational reasons

[Teaboy24]

Loganair from Dundee earlier this morning to Luton.

[BA318]

The E190-E2 has been approved and certified for LCY ops. According to the announcement LCY E190 pilots won’t need any extra training due to the commonality between the two generations. It also claims the E2 has a 63% quieter noise footprint from LCY compared to the E190.

[WHBM]

Has one been in for trials ?

[BA318]

Yes. It came in before heading to Farnborough in 2018. Was painted in the Profit-hunter shark livery.
https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2018/07/16/the-big-picture-embraer-e190-e2-lands-at-london-city/

Press release on the certification:
https://newsroom.aviator.aero/embraer-celebrates-london-city-airport-clearance-for-e190-e2/amp/

apparently Helvetic is likely to use the E2 into LCY “soon”. https://www.airway1.com/helvetic-airways-will-debut-the-e190-e2-at-london-city-airport/

[BA318]

KLM is closing down Air Antwerp. Antwerp Airport say they are looking for another carrier to operate the LCY route.

[PAXboy]

In the summer season, what equipment usually operates the BA to GIB? Making advanced research for a trip next year.

[BA318]

BACF only have the E190 now. It has never operated apart from this year so who knows if it will even last should restrictions be eased.

[PAXboy]

Thanks BA318 whilst I'm here ... Did GRX - Granada operate this year? That is also on my list!

[BA318]

I think that was cancelled in 2019 and didn’t operate in 2020 or 2021. But not 100% sure.

[Downwind_Left]

Granada was cancelled and was planned to be replaced by San Sebastián from July 2020. This obviously never operated in 2020 or 2021. Given the depressed state of the industry in general, and the amber status of Spain very niche routes such as this have no chance of being operated profitably until things improve.

But on the flip side; Gibraltar, Jersey and Guernsey have all been launched at short notice this year to take advantage of their travel status.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Was that obstructing baggage building in the middle of the existing ramp a complete waste ?
Noticed at the weekend the new parallel taxiway was in use. Is the new baggage building on stand 1 permanent now?
With +4 new bussing stands 25-28 and the loss of two of the best gates on the airfield 1-2, making a net gain of +2 and not the +8 I keep reading about?

[WHBM]

Things seem to have steadily ramped up. Last Friday 20 August BA had 28 departures from LCY, the bulk of which appear to be to Mediterranean destinations. 14 aircraft in use, which all seem based here, the majority of which appeared to do two rotations in the day, as well as some integrated flying out of Belfast and Southampton to other points. It is strange how it's starting to look like a classic IT-type operation. I wonder what the loads are like. Classic financial industry destinations like Frankfurt or Zurich are currently non-existent.

[Downwind_Left]

The baggage sorting facility is to allow work on the terminal expansion, so temporary for now, once the terminal has been expanded it will be removed again. Work on expanding the terminal is currently on hold for obvious reasons, but the apron and taxiway works were continued.

Not all the new stands are in use yet, look how far from the end of the apron stand 28 is. With the way things are, that’s all that’s required for now. When the terminal works are completed stands 25-31 will all be contact stands as the terminal is extended East, and stands 1-2 returned to use.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1900x1069/896275_1900x1069_jpeg_78d00df606ada14e7f22c9a88a8e9824354fe7 9a.jpg

The area East of stand 28 is currently used for storing equipment and parking vehicles. The current baggage facility is in the single storey grey-roofed building between the crane and the current terminal. Obviously to connect the new part of the terminal with the existing building, while everything is in used requires the baggage facility to be moved while that happens.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1629808380_b946589f66532e53db40d39efb2ff3e8fd72b8be.jpeg

[Downwind_Left]

The business focused destinations are always run down in July, and particularly August, but that has been particularly noticeable this year as many of those destinations haven’t been run for a while due to travel restrictions.

As soon as August is over the departure boards start to look more normal again. For example Monday 6th September sees 33 BA departures;

Dublin (2), Zurich (2), Glasgow (3), Frankfurt (2), Amsterdam (2), Düsseldorf (2), Skiathos, Berlin (2), Edinburgh (3), Nice (2), Belfast (3), Malaga, Jersey, Mykonos, Palma, Florence, Guernsey, Ibiza (2), Split.

More frequencies and destinations are progressively added week by week through September and October.

[SKOJB]

Of course a sign of the times and those ‘classic’ business routes will have reduced frequency and volumes for some time to come, if indeed they ever return to pre pandemic levels. Reality is that IT destinations will probably be Cityflyer’s bread and butter moving forward!

[AirportPlanner1]

I agree, problem is that the destinations easily reachable aren’t really suited to winter so the coming season could be a particularly gloomy one. Even if the Canaries are technically possible and viable there’s only so many flights needed in a day and it will tie frames up for a big chunk of it

[PAXboy]

It is not just Covid that has changed LCY but Brexit and those financial companies and staff that have relocated.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

How many staff were eventually relocated? They've been trying for years to shift people out of London but in a global fight for talent not enough talented people wanted to swap London for Frankfurt.
Basically if they tried to make you, you moved to a London based competitor. What was the eventual net loss on the Wharf or the City?

[WHBM]

Speaking from a slightly informed viewpoint ...

The business is not deserting London to Frankfurt or Paris, much as they would like. What is currently happening with Covid though is there is extensive on-line Teams/Webex working around the offices and with clients, much of this from people's dining tables (including the other side of mine :) ). It has also been the case that Canary Wharf finance offices have employed a high proportion of EU staff from all over, a good number of whom have currently gone back home and are working, again from their dining tables, in Athens or Lisbon etc. These are still UK company workers, and many are quite keen to get back to the office at some stage soon.

UK senior staff, along with New York and Singapore, have much of the worldwide knowledge and are not attracted, and even more not their families, to Paris or Frankfurt. Those examples of staff I gave from Athens and Lisbon are likewise not attracted there because, unlike their English, they are not fluent in French or German, and the general feeling is that you get marginalised very quickly. It's exactly the same as UK staff who ended up at Airbus in Toulouse felt.

[WHBM]

Things at LCY are, very slowly, on the up. Amsterdam seems the first competitive route to come back, with both BA and KLM doing multi-daily. Swiss have restarted Zurich, operated by Helvetic. See they have begun using their new Embraer 290, which I had missed getting its London City certification. It has a notably different engine sound to the E190. BA seem to have just four Embraers left stored at Norwich, all the rest are back.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I noticed yesterday the E2 is like the A220 and A318, restricted to the 20 stands and cannot taxi past the remainder.

[Tranceaddict]

BACF re-started ZRH yesterday as well, so head to head with LX on this route as well

[WHBM]

Interesting. Does that mean that, notwithstanding the new taxyway, if LCY is on easterlies such departures still have to backtrack on the runway ?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Yup, had to hold at Link D and backtrack.

[BA318]

BACF will add Salzburg twice a week (Friday and Saturday) from 10th December.

[WHBM]

Went through this week for the first time in 18 months :) . Belfast and back.

All just so familiar. Two police, itchily pawing their sub-machine guns, glowering at me and trying to look tough, just inside the entrance. Ground floor though surprisingly empty, and most positions unstaffed. Up at security, just one lane staffed, although there were a fair number coming through, so still a queue. As ever at LCY, security staff pleasant and professional, unlike elsewhere, they presumably were furloughed for a while rather than let go and then replacements rehired. In the departure lounge it seems a bit rearranged, some concessions open, some closed up, though (as I have commented before) the retail space given over to jewellery and cosmetics, with absolutely nobody buying them, seems as ludicrous as ever. View out onto the apron now ruined by the huge baggage sorting shed built right in front of the windows - did it ever get used or has it been a useless fiasco ?

Gate 23, seating area far too small for an E190 (let alone the even bigger aircraft which are confined to the east side gates). In the usual way everyone was admitted at the top, to then stand swaying on the steep steps while they were not let out of the door at the bottom. Only the front aircraft entrance in use, and people being let through in batches to minimise queueing inside the aircraft, but instead they are all squashed together on the stairs inside. One day LCY are going to have a serious falling accident on these stairs, how it gets past a risk assessment goodness knows.

I saw that they were up to 50 scheduled departures on the day, which is pretty good going. BA seem to have become even more dominant than previously. With all the Mediterranean flights as well I do have to admire how BACF have managed their comeback. I guess there are hardly any aircraft left stored at Norwich now.

BACF on Belfast was 40% load outwards, pretty much 100% load on the return. Fare was much as before - in fact a bit more. In order to encourage people back - they have reduced the catering provision in Y, alcohol no longer given out. Now I may just be a simplistic marketing type, but for me you do not reduce your service provision when you are trying as never before to encourage customers back. BA likewise knocked me back from Silver to Bronze during the non-use, which is not what a lot of their competiitors have done, but it does mean that on my forthcoming New York trip I don't have the prior incentive to choose them any more. I know that internally BACF on Belfast is up against BA Mainline from Heathrow (no catering handed out at all), so dumbing down the provision really does send a negative message. For those who like to make out that refreshments are 'not necessary' on such flights, both out and return it was a quick run to Avis and a 2 hour drive to Co Fermanagh, the flight is the one chance to get something.

Belfast City was even more of a ghost environment than LCY, there was not a single catering/retail facility open landside on arrival.

[GLCYZ]

WHBM

Totally false. It’s not proactively offered before 9.30am but is available on request. After 9.30am there’s a full bar service with choice of snack.

[BA318]

Indeed from what has been reported on other sites (with pictures), drinks are available. BA mainline also offer water and a snack in Economy on all flights now.

[Downwind_Left]

Alcoholic drinks provided (and generously so) on my very recents from London City to Belfast and back, together with a selection of crisps or brownie. Slightly different snack oh the way back - Taytos, so clearly catered from the other end.

I’ve seen this before on Cityflyer - people assume drinks are chargeable, despite the announcement of a snack and drink from the bar, so don’t order anything when the trolley comes by.

Then someone in the know orders something, people around them see this and realise it’s a free bar… then suddenly people are ordering wine, G&Ts etc as the service progresses through the cabin.

With the Lufthansa group moving to BOB in economy, BA Cityflyer one of the last remaining fully complimentary services in Europe in economy. Definitely a rare thing in the UK.

[WHBM]

I don't want to come over as an alcy :) but I specifically asked for a whisky (it was late afternoon), and I was specifically told that I could only have a soft drink - despite the miniatures being on the lower shelf of the cart.

The PA announcement included "bar" for club, and just "refreshments" for Y. I paid particular attention on the way back.

[GLCYZ]

It would be worth making a complaint about this as it sounds as though the crew got their service standards mixed up and need correcting: regional services from BHD don’t offer a bar (water and snack only) but LCY services do. You certainly shouldn’t have been deprived of that Johnnie Walker. Uptake in economy tends to be low as, as another poster said, people don’t listen to the PAs and are used to flying airlines with a BoB service.

[WHBM]

I didn't actually realise (not having used them) that those new BA Cityflyer regional services from Belfast City have a different service standard to the route to London City. It was certainly a new world seeing three BA Embraers together at BHD.

All the bar and restaurant facilities at BHD in the departure lounge were closed up as well - only the Starbucks was open, and doing a considerable trade. At least LCY has got their departures restaurant open again. Northern Ireland overall looked a lot more closed up than London.

[GLCYZ]

Originally they offered a full two class service but logistically getting the correct catering in place was just too messy and unreliable so they became a pared-back single cabin service. Offering Club and a full bar service in economy on the 25 minute GLA hop was ambitious, to say the least!

[BA318]

That is on the services from Belfast to other UK cities which were introduced following the collapse of Aer Lingus Regional/Stobart Air. LCY-Belfast flights should continue to receive the original service.

[EGPO]

I noticed yesterday the E2 is like the A220 and A318, restricted to the 20 stands and cannot taxi past the remainder.
Having read of this, and also reading of larger versions of the lateat, and arguably best airliners , flying for sheer versatility.

I wondered if like with other , difficult airports , the E295 , or E195-E2 and the Airbus A220-300 , I was under the impression that Swiss and Helvetic have both variants .

Anyway my question is, having read of ' Binter looking to open routes into perhaps the UK and elsewhere, LCY might be a good fit .
My question is, as I'm interested in these models , and just what they are capable of , so could they be contenders to operate from LCY? If a new Taxiway is built , one assumes it would be stronger, to perhaps ' future proof ' , larger aircraft .
Perhaps if The A220-300 Could operate would that in theory , given its range allow for a New York or Similar route .
Dubai perhaps ? .
I'm a keen follower of the new breed of aircraft, and for example , Jet Blue did imply Trans Atlantic operations for their A220's.

[BA318]

BACF will add new routes.

https://www.headforpoints.com/2022/01/12/exclusive-ba-adds-six-new-routes-from-london-city-for-summer-for-2022/

Luxembourg, up to 18 flights per week – full season (27th March to 28th October)
Barcelona, up to six flights per week – 20th June to 4th September
Guernsey, two flights per week – 20th June to 2nd September, Mon and Fri
Jersey, two flights per week – 20th June to 2nd September, Mon and Fri
Milan Malpensa, daily – full season (2nd April to 28th October)
Thessaloniki, one flight per week – 18th June to 4th September, Sat out and Sun back

Luxembourg is going up against Luxair.

[mariofly12]

BACF will add new routes.

https://www.headforpoints.com/2022/01/12/exclusive-ba-adds-six-new-routes-from-london-city-for-summer-for-2022/

Luxembourg, up to 18 flights per week – full season (27th March to 28th October)
Barcelona, up to six flights per week – 20th June to 4th September
Guernsey, two flights per week – 20th June to 2nd September, Mon and Fri
Jersey, two flights per week – 20th June to 2nd September, Mon and Fri
Milan Malpensa, daily – full season (2nd April to 28th October)
Thessaloniki, one flight per week – 18th June to 4th September, Sat out and Sun back

Luxembourg is going up against Luxair.

Does this mean that on the LCY-SKG route the plane will be overnighting there (too many expenses) or will it be performing W-pattern flights?

[tictack67]

Does this mean that on the LCY-SKG route the plane will be overnighting there (too many expenses) or will it be performing W-pattern flights?


Night Stopping SKGSAT LCY 1200D SKG 1720A
SUN SKG 1200D LCY 1320A

​​​​​​​Ties in nicely with LCY curfew on weekends

[willy wombat]

That’ll be a highly sought after duty - Saturday night in SKG and no need to get up early on Sunday.

[BA318]

It could be that it ends up doing a SOU trip in between and crew get to overnight in Southampton.

[willy wombat]

Possibly slightly less attractive!

[WHBM]

Bit of a shame if BA see off Luxair on the Luxembourg run; there wouldn't really be enough demand for both operators at those high frequencies. Luxair have been a particular supporter of LCY through the recent lean times, running services in as soon as allowed; I think they may have been the first Europe-based operator to restart. Demand on this run is almost wholly from the Luxembourg end, which includes the surrounding countries which find Paris, Brussels or Frankfurt too far away.

[BA318]

Bit of a shame if BA see off Luxair on the Luxembourg run; there wouldn't really be enough demand for both operators at those high frequencies. Luxair have been a particular supporter of LCY through the recent lean times, running services in as soon as allowed; I think they may have been the first Europe-based operator to restart. Demand on this run is almost wholly from the Luxembourg end, which includes the surrounding countries which find Paris, Brussels or Frankfurt too far away.

Indeed. Luxair have been a good customer of LCY.

BA are dropping their LHR flights to LUX and instead launching this so hopefully there is still room for both to survive.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

BA's LUX has now gone LHR/LGW/LHR/LCY. Make up your mind!

[richardwpprn]

CJ's G-LCAC seems to have had a varied weekend LCY-MAN on Saturday and MAN-CMF-GNB-LCY on Sunday

[WHBM]

CJ's G-LCAC seems to have had a varied weekend LCY-MAN on Saturday and MAN-CMF-GNB-LCY on Sunday
LCYN did the exact opposite on the Tuesday before Christmas, I guess it's some beginning/end of seasonality. CityFlyer are pretty proactive at the moment in getting what they can.

[WHBM]

New operator not noticed here previously is German Airways, who appear to be an ACMI operator with Embraer 190s, running the Dusseldorf route for BA and the Milan route for ITA (the old Alitalia in most part, reborn) each into LCY multiple times a day. Both seemed to start with the summer schedules on March 28.

[BA318]

New operator not noticed here previously is German Airways, who appear to be an ACMI operator with Embraer 190s, running the Dusseldorf route for BA and the Milan route for ITA (the old Alitalia in most part, reborn) each into LCY multiple times a day. Both seemed to start with the summer schedules on March 28.

I thought I had posted here about the ITA flight but must have done it on another forum. ITA have said if the route is a success they will use their A220s when they arrive.

[virginblue]

New operator not noticed here previously is German Airways, who appear to be an ACMI operator with Embraer 190s, running the Dusseldorf route for BA and the Milan route for ITA (the old Alitalia in most part, reborn) each into LCY multiple times a day. Both seemed to start with the summer schedules on March 28.

It is the old WDL that operated a lot into LCY with their knackered BAe 146s (including this famous BA flight that went from LCY to EDI by mistake instead of DUS) . Rebranded as a result of the fleet renewal.

I am tempted to ask if BA has ever operated the DUS route with their own metal... (I know they have, but it seems to be the one that always gets the leased in ACMI-aircraft).

[WHBM]

ITA is of course ATI backwards - the old Italian state carrier from the 1960s-70s with Fokker F27s.

BA was operating Dusseldorf with their own aircraft up to the end of last week, so not too far to think back ... :)

[ajamieson]

Is any LCY operator still regularly using BAe146s/Avros? Off the top of my head only Jota at SEN has them. The 747 got a public send-off and, while I don't suppose there's much fondness for these beasts, they've been a big part of the LCY story.

[WHBM]

Alas nothing scheduled. I actually chanced to notice what turned out to be the probable last such, CityJet (alias Aer Lingus colours) departing one Saturday morning to Dublin, early into the lockdown. They gave up after that weekend, and I don't think any such aircraft has been scheduled since.

Jota were in at LCY a couple of weeks ago with a charter from Liverpool, possibly a football team, a market which they do quite a lot of work for (shades of the old Scot Airways), so we haven't seen the end of the aircraft yet, and their crews still maintain the particular LCY currency. Jota was indeed my last RJ trip, shortly before the lockdown, operating a BA substitute from Dublin to LCY, although this work seems to have dropped off for them. I believe they have moved their base from Southend to Biggin Hill

[davidjohnson6]

New route to Deauville in northern France - operated by RAF Avia, based in Latvia, with a Saab 340
https://lodyssey.ch/

[CabinCrewe]

New route to Deauville in northern France - operated by RAF Avia, based in Latvia, with a Saab 340
https://lodyssey.ch/
Blink and you’ll miss it would be my bet….

[WHBM]

New route to Deauville in northern France - operated by RAF Avia, based in Latvia, with a Saab 340
When I last encountered them, they were an Antonov 24 operator.

Now wouldn't that be a belter for LCY ?

[davidjohnson6]

Cityjet flew a Fokker 50 between Deauville and London City about 5 or 10 years ago. L'Odyssey look to be charging rather higher fares than Cityjet used to though....

[BA318]

I wonder how much demand there will be at €800+ for a return journey.

[Saabdriver1]

I wonder if these guys have actually run the performance on a Saab 340 departure ex LCY. Although technically the aircraft can do it (and I believe an operator did in the very distant past), the single-engine climb performance calculation with obstacle limitations is going to leave a commercial payload of next to nothing. Admittedly that might not be a limitation at 800 Euro return fares, but it seems like an unorthodox business model.

[SWBKCB]

In the consultation plans released today, the airport sets out how it can play an important role in meeting the increased demand in London, as well as providing more choice and flexibility for travellers planning business and leisure trips domestically and internationally. Most importantly, growth to 9 million passengers a year can be delivered without requiring any additional infrastructure and ahead of longer term, strategic, aviation planning decisions for other airports in the South-East.

Following the publication of the airport’s master plan in 2020, the airport is inviting views on additional flexibility to operate on a Saturday afternoon and evening, as well as additional flexibility in the first and last half hour of daily operations (0630-0700hrs and 2200-2230hrs).

The plans come with a commitment from the airport that only cleaner, quieter, new generation aircraft, such as the Airbus A220 and Embraer E2, would be allowed to fly in the new operating periods. This would bring forward the delivery of more of these aircraft to the airport and allow better connections to new destinations.

https://media.londoncityairport.com/london-city-airport-begins-10-week-consultation-on-changes-to-its-existing-planning-permission/

[BA318]

https://media.londoncityairport.com/london-city-airport-begins-10-week-consultation-on-changes-to-its-existing-planning-permission/

There is no way on earth the current terminal can support 9mpa. At 5 million pre covid it was already tight and that’s why they started developing the new one.

[davidjohnson6]

If the weekend 24h curfew were removed... I imagine a 6-day capacity of 5m could easily become a weekly capacity of 6.25m or even 6.5m, especially after allowing for the current side effects of this weekend constraint

Separately, L'Odyssey seem to have taken tickets to Deauville off sale

[SKOJB]

https://media.londoncityairport.com/london-city-airport-begins-10-week-consultation-on-changes-to-its-existing-planning-permission/

Will be interesting to see what plans BACF have with regards to fleet renewal on the back of this!

[BA318]

If the weekend 24h curfew were removed... I imagine a 6-day capacity of 5m could easily become a weekly capacity of 6.25m or even 6.5m, especially after allowing for the current side effects of this weekend constraint

Separately, L'Odyssey seem to have taken tickets to Deauville off sale

Who would have thought that €800 for a 1hr flight on a Saab340 wouldn’t be snapped up!

[WHBM]

The weekend hours limitation has an impact well beyond the actual closure. It prevents aircraft being used on Saturday mornings on the increasingly popular LCY flights to many Mediterranean points, because departing after 0700 it is marginal to get back by 1230, in case of any delay and all the expense of diversion, so the whole rotation is not attempted. It also stops the high end sports charters that would suit ideally the mainstream football teams, etc, returning after the event on Saturday evening, and again the whole thing is lost to LCY both ways.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

This is one of those rare occasions when NIMBYs have my sympathy.
1) No Airport
2) Only Dash 7s
3) No jets, obviously
4) OK, only the world's quietest jet
5) Transatlantic Airbuses!!

[SealinkBF]

This is one of those rare occasions when NIMBYs have my sympathy.
1) No Airport
2) Only Dash 7s
3) No jets, obviously
4) OK, only the world's quietest jet
5) Transatlantic Airbuses!!

I was lucky enough to fly on the BabyBus. Great fun

[WHBM]

Interesting the proposal to allow only the A220/E2 on Saturday afternoons. These P&W-powered types are very notably quieter than the E190 when climbing out; the latter is also far noisier than the BAe146 which started the jet operations here, and one wonders how the transition between these two types was allowed. I believe the last 146/RJ operation at LCY was just a couple of months ago, a Jota football team charter just before the airline ceased operations.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Interesting the proposal to allow only the A220/E2 on Saturday afternoons. These P&W-powered types are very notably quieter than the E190 when climbing out; the latter is also far noisier than the BAe146 which started the jet operations here, and one wonders how the transition between these two types was allowed. I believe the last 146/RJ operation at LCY was just a couple of months ago, a Jota football team charter just before the airline ceased operations.
Agreed, the Embraer had a marked increase in noise levels when compared to the 146, the Fokker 70 and A318 were even noisier.

[Downwind_Left]

Interesting the proposal to allow only the A220/E2 on Saturday afternoons. These P&W-powered types are very notably quieter than the E190 when climbing out; the latter is also far noisier than the BAe146 which started the jet operations here, and one wonders how the transition between these two types was allowed. I believe the last 146/RJ operation at LCY was just a couple of months ago, a Jota football team charter just before the airline ceased operations.

Depends which version you're talking about. The RJ100 (and presumably BAE146-300) were banned in 2019 for noise reasons. Although the aircraft themselves were relatively quiet, their comparatively low climb rates made them prone to triggering the ground-based noise monitoring points. The RJ85/BAE 146-200 continue to be approved.

The E190 has for the last few years been operated in a specific way, by all LCY carriers, to perform high-power takeoffs followed by climbing away to 3000ft very quickly, to limit noise exposure on the ground as soon as possible

[BA318]

Sun Air are returning from September with up to 6 flights a week on LCY-BLL

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1544982323770400769?s=20&t=byd9NlVQV7m-WKFIcoVThQ

[SealinkBF]

I wonder if these guys have actually run the performance on a Saab 340 departure ex LCY. Although technically the aircraft can do it (and I believe an operator did in the very distant past), the single-engine climb performance calculation with obstacle limitations is going to leave a commercial payload of next to nothing. Admittedly that might not be a limitation at 800 Euro return fares, but it seems like an unorthodox business model.

I am pretty sure I was on a Saab 340 when Eastern Airways operated LCY-IOM for BA.

EDIT: Nope, it was a Saab 2000

[flying phil 2007]

I am pretty sure I was on a Saab 340 when Eastern Airways operated LCY-IOM for BA.

EDIT: Nope, it was a Saab 2000
According to Facebook.. although they sold a handful of tickets to Deauville, it turns out that :
# Their Saab 340 not certified for LCY steep approach
# crews not trained for LCY
# route not approved by the CAA
Looks like the route has been withdrawn already

[BA318]

According to Facebook.. although they sold a handful of tickets to Deauville, it turns out that :
# Their Saab 340 not certified for LCY steep approach
# crews not trained for LCY
# route not approved by the CAA
Looks like the route has been withdrawn already

Embarrasing especially for LCY who have advertised the route and even run a competition to win tickets.

[BA318]

As mentioned previously LCY is consulting on increasing passenger numbers and movements. One interesting piece in the document is this quote:

“The first new generation aircraft (A220-100) started operations at the airport with Swiss Air Lines in 2017. Since then, the Embraer E190-E2 has been certified to operate at the airport, and we expect the Embraer E195-E2 to be certified later this year.” https://consultation.londoncityairport.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/07/LCA-Exhibition_Boards.pdf

[DIBO]

One interesting piece in the document...
From the aforementionned document p. 9
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/709x488/lcy_noise_contours_ef1585973ca9696360d484515e8bb42686eb4a24. jpg


The contours shown are for 90dB (solid lines) and 80 dB (dotted lines).
Am I missing something... the larger area is 90dB, the smaller 80dB :hmm:

[WHBM]

I don't think you are missing anything ... but I think whoever did the document needs to go back to GCSE Physics :)

[BA318]

The Embraer E195E2 is expected into LCY on Friday.

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1549840640443400193?s=20&t=jX6aV0pBciaailWVojw4KA

[WHBM]

The Embraer E195E2 is expected into LCY on Friday.
The Embraer E190E2 has been seen at LCY daily for some time, operated by Helvetic on behalf of Swiss; the difference with the E195 seems to be just another three seat rows. It also has extended wingtips, which I guess restricts it to only the newer eastern gates at LCY, unlike the current Embraer fleets. This is not insignificant, because the established western gates have the nicely rebuilt pier, with a range of pleasant catering concessions and seating, whereas the eastern pier is a pretty poor, temporary-feeling (as you can tell from the bouncing floor), featureless grey corridor that one is regularly expected to queue in.

We also had the silly (and it is) "Profit Hunter" logoed E190 come in four years ago after the last Farnborough in 2018 - presumably this is a different airframe rather than a cut-and-shut job on the previous one.

[cavokblues]

The Embraer E190E2 has been seen at LCY daily for some time, operated by Helvetic on behalf of Swiss; the difference with the E195 seems to be just another three seat rows. It also has extended wingtips, which I guess restricts it to only the newer eastern gates at LCY, unlike the current Embraer fleets. This is not insignificant, because the established western gates have the nicely rebuilt pier, with a range of pleasant catering concessions and seating, whereas the eastern pier is a pretty poor, temporary-feeling (as you can tell from the bouncing floor), featureless grey corridor that one is regularly expected to queue in.

We also had the silly (and it is) "Profit Hunter" logoed E190 come in four years ago after the last Farnborough in 2018 - presumably this is a different airframe rather than a cut-and-shut job on the previous one.

I was always told the reason 195 v1 wasn't certified was something to do about the risks of tail strikes? Isn't that still a risk on the E2 version?

[WHBM]

I was always told the reason 195 v1 wasn't certified was something to do about the risks of tail strikes? Isn't that still a risk on the E2 version?
I believe you are correct, the E195 is longer behind the main gear than the E190, and with the steeper approach the risk of tail strike led to it being outside the LCY parameters. The same applied to the E175 compared to the E170.

I must say I never quite got why Embraer offered no less than four different fuselage lengths on the Embraer simultaneously, with E170/175/190/195. Seemed a lot of certification complexity and non-standardisation, particularly for secondhand and re-leasing values. Surely two would have been enough.

[stewyb]

Maybe this latest certification is in readiness for a BACF fleet renewal announcement?

[cavokblues]

Yeah, it is slightly strange they offered four versions. Could never quite understand the logic myself.

Regarding BACF - my (probably out of date now) understanding was the Scope agreement with the unions means they cannot fly aircraft with more than 100 seats (hence the reason their 190s are marked SR - Seating Restriction - and limited to 98 seats. If that's still in force there is no need for the 195 and the extra capacity. To be honest, I think the 190 is pretty perfect for them anyway, you would probably see the 190 E2 more than anything.

[stewyb]

Yeah, it is slightly strange they offered four versions. Could never quite understand the logic myself.

Regarding BACF - my (probably out of date now) understanding was the Scope agreement with the unions means they cannot fly aircraft with more than 100 seats (hence the reason their 190s are marked SR - Seating Restriction - and limited to 98 seats. If that's still in force there is no need for the 195 and the extra capacity. To be honest, I think the 190 is pretty perfect for them anyway, you would probably see the 190 E2 more than anything.

Agreed, the E90 E2 is probably preferred with a similar configuration as Helvetic’s 110 seat which operates regularly in to LCY!

[Downwind_Left]

Yeah, it is slightly strange they offered four versions. Could never quite understand the logic myself.

Regarding BACF - my (probably out of date now) understanding was the Scope agreement with the unions means they cannot fly aircraft with more than 100 seats (hence the reason their 190s are marked SR - Seating Restriction - and limited to 98 seats. If that's still in force there is no need for the 195 and the extra capacity. To be honest, I think the 190 is pretty perfect for them anyway, you would probably see the 190 E2 more than anything.

That rule no longer applies.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The British Airways / Sun Air service to Billund returned today on the Do328 Jet, I wonder if there's enough of a market with competition from er.....British Airways at LHR at a *MUCH* lower price point.

[tictack67]

The British Airways / Sun Air service to Billund returned today on the Do328 Jet, I wonder if there's enough of a market with competition from er.....British Airways at LHR at a *MUCH* lower price point.

BA compete/Duplicate on over 13 routed from LCY and LHR with price variations.
Starting to duplicate on LGW too, they always done this

[V_2]

hence the reason their 190s are marked SR - Seating Restriction - and limited to 98 seats.
SR stands for Short Runway

[SKOJB]

SR stands for Short Runway

imagine BA will go E90 E2 or A220-100, any preference?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

BA compete/Duplicate on over 13 routed from LCY and LHR with price variations.
Starting to duplicate on LGW too, they always done this
The lowest ex LCY is 5-6 times the equivalent entry level LHR fare, it's an all Business Class service out of LCY with Sun Air so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison. Time will tell.

[BA318]

The lowest ex LCY is 5-6 times the equivalent entry level LHR fare, it's an all Business Class service out of LCY with Sun Air so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison. Time will tell.

Although the fares are priced as such and the service is like Business class it is actually Economy on Sun Air. Its a great use of avios as it only costs about 5000 one way and you get a pretty decent flight. When I took it they served a salad, Ice cream and alcohol/digestifs all in a little more than an hour.

They have a very loyal following and they know their crowd - point to point business traffic. The rest can take the BA LHR flight.

[WHBM]

The Sun Air/BA flight to Billund has run for many years, back to the turboprop Dornier times before the current jet. Sun Air are local there and seem to know their market.

The BA Heathrow flight get back there after 10pm, some days after 11pm. By the time you have got your bags, good luck getting anywhere other than in a taxi. Sun Air run at key business times morning and evening.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Today's LHR was cancelled! 7 of us outbound LCY-BLL today, the evening return begins tomorrow. Amazing acceleration on the Do328Jet!!

[Downwind_Left]

SR stands for Short Runway

SR stands for Scope Restriction. They are limited to 98 seats to comply with a now extinct scope clause.

The BACF 190SRs, are no better or worse on a short runway, than any other 190 that lands at LCY. And Lufthansa, KLM, Helvetic, LOT, TAP don't have SR aircraft.

[Flap40]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1548x1186/screenshot_2022_10_23_at_13_12_14_f6a034e249a9ed6dc33a078daa fd63e413996c7b.png

Above is a screenshot from a cockpit video on youtube of an A220 flight into LCY. Note the aircraft types painted on the ground.

A320???

Does LCY know something the the rest of the world doesn't?

[RA85684]

That is interesting. Also interesting to see the A220 300 there, which would be good to see operating at LCY.

Is the A320 out of the realms of possibility? We know the steep approach software can be put in because they did it on the A318. The A320 is significantly shorter than the E295 and it has proven takeoff performance out of Santos Dumont's shorter runway. Would the slightly longer wingspan cause issues?

Who could operate A320's into LCY?

[AirLCY]

That is interesting. Also interesting to see the A220 300 there, which would be good to see operating at LCY.

Is the A320 out of the realms of possibility? We know the steep approach software can be put in because they did it on the A318. The A320 is significantly shorter than the E295 and it has proven takeoff performance out of Santos Dumont's shorter runway. Would the slightly longer wingspan cause issues?

Who could operate A320's into LCY?

LCY would become a gold mine if A320’s get in, opens the door to most airlines - depends on the cost of the modification and also any range / payload penalties. The E295 can supposedly operate all the routes the E190 currently does with a full payload !

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's the E290 that flies to LCY, not the longer E295. If the Airbus A320 was a serious contender then surely BA would be the first to evaluate one, but they never did. Even the A319 would be decidedly large for the extended Eastern apron.

[BA318]

It's the E290 that flies to LCY, not the longer E295. If the Airbus A320 was a serious contender then surely BA would be the first to evaluate one, but they never did. Even the A319 would be decidedly large for the extended Eastern apron.

The E295 is/will be certificated for LCY and they expect KLM to start using it in the near future. https://simpleflying.com/1st-embraer-e195-e2-flight-london-city-airport/

https://www.embraercommercialaviation.com/news/e195-e2-makes-debut-touchdown-at-london-city-airport/
“The visit, in anticipation of the aircraft’s certification for steep approach into London City at the end of this year…While the immediate focus is certification, we are hopeful that we will see the first E195-E2 in operation next year with KLM which will be real cause of celebration.”

[SWBKCB]

Above is a screenshot from a cockpit video on youtube of an A220 flight into LCY. Note the aircraft types painted on the ground.

A320???

Does LCY know something the the rest of the world doesn't?

No, somebody has gone to their big box of Airport Stencils and pulled out the one's they need - the gap between nose and nosewheel is the same for each variant.

[WHBM]

Above is a screenshot from a cockpit video on youtube of an A220 flight into LCY. Note the aircraft types painted on the ground.

A320???

Does LCY know something the the rest of the world doesn't?
All a bit irrelevant anyway given that LCY doesn't do nose-in parking, but all are marshalled to face outwards.

[V_2]

All a bit irrelevant anyway given that LCY doesn't do nose-in parking, but all are marshalled to face outwards.

actually you will notice these new markings face the Marshals, not the flight crew! Makes sense as the marshals use these markings to initiate the right turn. Turn in the wrong place and the plane doesn’t fit. So the markings are far from irrelevant!

[virginblue]

What exactly is the issue with A319/320 if the E295 can get in? They are both within one meter of wingspan and the A319/320 is 7m/4m shorter than the E295 - and, for that matter, the A319 is even shorter than the E290)? While the A320 may struggle performance wise, the A319 has hot rod capabilities that are used to good effect elsewhere (China, Bhutan etc.). is it "just" the weights?

[V_2]

What exactly is the issue with A319/320 if the E295 can get in? They are both within one meter of wingspan and the A319/320 is 7m/4m shorter than the E295 - and, for that matter, the A319 is even shorter than the E290)? While the A320 may struggle performance wise, the A319 has hot rod capabilities that are used to good effect elsewhere (China, Bhutan etc.). is it "just" the weights?

Not sure but I’d check what’s the minimum turning circle is like?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Wow, didn't know about them intending to fly the E295 in. They are just getting bigger and bigger every time! The A320 in BA config seats 180, EZY have 186, that's a proper step change and would overwhelm the still frankly small terminal. Even KLM's 132 on the E295 is a step-up from the already high 125 on the CS100. Careful what you wish for....the LCY USP to market is on getting in and out fast and with no fuss as there's not even one single lounge.

[BA318]

I recall about 10-15 years ago there was a rumour that Easyjet had enquired if it was possible to get the A319 certificated for LCY and wanted to operate on business routes but nothing more was ever heard.

[WHBM]

As I understand it, and always to be updated by the experts (see above :) ) there are a whole series of compliance parameters, including engine-out performance for easterly departures over the Gallions Reach bridge, and tail clearance when flaring on touchdown from the steep approach. It was this latter point that allowed in the E190, but not the E195, which is just a bit longer from the main undercarriage to the strike point of the rear fuselage. Presumably this is something addressed on the E295 - the once again fractionally shorter E290 is already in daily use by Helvetic, operating for Swiss to Geneva and Zurich.

Yes, we all know the Gallions Reach Bridge east of the airport has not been built, and likely never will be, but it's still a requirement to clear where it supposedly should be, adequately.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Is there any point to the steep approach on westerlies?

[WHBM]

Yes, that same reasoning about the Gallions Reach bridge applies. You may well be foul of the existing road bridge across the east end of the airport as well.

I also suspect you might need co-ordination with shipping in the Thames, which currently is anything that will fit under the high bridge at Dartford, 180 feet I think. There's more large shipping still comes along the river there than is sometimes imagined.

[virginblue]

Would be interested to hear from experts if London City is more demanding that Paro where A319 with uprated engines and now even A320NEOs operate. IIRC correctly, one of the reasons why Airbus has kept the A319 in its NEO portfolio was the - somewhat limited - demand for a hot rod aircraft.

[WHBM]

Luxair to start London City to Antwerp

Luxair reconnects Antwerp Airport (Belgium) with London City - Aviation24.be (https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luxair/reconnects-antwerp-airport-belgium-with-london-city/)

Bit of a thin schedule, only a few days a week, but possibly those times were the key ones in the old days when VLM/Cityjet/Air Antwerp (some shared ownership between them all behind the scenes I believe) did the route, which was held down for years. There was a long tradition that the diamond trade profession, centred for Europe in London and Antwerp (and the traders themselves living in a tight knot around Stoke Newington, not far from LCY), were who kept things going. There is of course no service from LCY to Brussels.

I wonder how Luxair are doing on LCY to Luxembourg, after the arrival of BA on the route. Most of the demand is from the Luxembourg end, and BA don't actively promote connections through LCY, so I would have thought Luxair could see them off.

[BA318]

Luxair to start London City to Antwerp

Luxair reconnects Antwerp Airport (Belgium) with London City - Aviation24.be (https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luxair/reconnects-antwerp-airport-belgium-with-london-city/)

Bit of a thin schedule, only a few days a week, but possibly those times were the key ones in the old days when VLM/Cityjet/Air Antwerp (some shared ownership between them all behind the scenes I believe) did the route, which was held down for years. There was a long tradition that the diamond trade profession, centred for Europe in London and Antwerp (and the traders themselves living in a tight knot around Stoke Newington, not far from LCY), were who kept things going. There is of course no service from LCY to Brussels.

I wonder how Luxair are doing on LCY to Luxembourg, after the arrival of BA on the route. Most of the demand is from the Luxembourg end, and BA don't actively promote connections through LCY, so I would have thought Luxair could see them off.

BA have dropped LUX from LCY (ends 30th Oct after just 5 months). Luxair seem to do well. Up to 6 daily so it seems to be going ok.

[WHBM]

BA have dropped LUX from LCY (ends 30th Oct after just 5 months). Luxair seem to do well. Up to 6 daily so it seems to be going ok.
I could have told them ... Hello BA CityFlyer, I could have saved you maybe £1m+ on this venture, which had all the wrong elements. Send me a message :)

[AirLCY]

I could have told them ... Hello BA CityFlyer, I could have saved you maybe £1m+ on this venture, which had all the wrong elements. Send me a message :)

Same with MXP, one daily, up against ITA multi daily to LIN and the rest of London with heavy MXP schedules

[WHBM]

I think it's a bit more of a challenge at Milan, where I understand there are some rather one-sided rules about who can operate at Linate (which CityJet used to serve properly from LCY). Of course, the UK government could step in (like other governments would) and say if BA can't do it, ITA (the new Alitalia) can't. But the government probably never notice such things.

[AirLCY]

I think it's a bit more of a challenge at Milan, where I understand there are some rather one-sided rules about who can operate at Linate (which CityJet used to serve properly from LCY). Of course, the UK government could step in (like other governments would) and say if BA can't do it, ITA (the new Alitalia) can't. But the government probably never notice such things.

BA used to lease slots from Meridiana / Air Italy, they’re no longer, so the BA LIN operation is no longer. LHR also reduced for the same reason

[V_2]

I think it's a bit more of a challenge at Milan, where I understand there are some rather one-sided rules about who can operate at Linate (which CityJet used to serve properly from LCY). Of course, the UK government could step in (like other governments would) and say if BA can't do it, ITA (the new Alitalia) can't. But the government probably never notice such things.

in short my take on it is Linate have denied CityFlyer slots for years claiming there were none left. CityFlyer managed to get slots via Air Italy which was a short lived airline owned by Qatar, who own a large share of IAG, who own BA, who own BACF. This worked until Air Italy closed and BACF lost the borrowed slots.despite Italia going bankrupt and all their slots becoming available, somehow Linate claim all those slots are now not available again, so no LIN route. “If you are so desperate to serve Milan, why aren’t you even going to MXP?”. So BACF kept one daily to play the game, but unsurprisingly it’s not worked. The joke is ITA can’t even fly the LCY-LIN route themselves and have to wet lease German Airways.

[AirLCY]

in short my take on it is Linate have denied CityFlyer slots for years claiming there were none left. CityFlyer managed to get slots via Air Italy which was a short lived airline owned by Qatar, who own a large share of IAG, who own BA, who own BACF. This worked until Air Italy closed and BACF lost the borrowed slots.despite Italia going bankrupt and all their slots becoming available, somehow Linate claim all those slots are now not available again, so no LIN route. “If you are so desperate to serve Milan, why aren’t you even going to MXP?”. So BACF kept one daily to play the game, but unsurprisingly it’s not worked. The joke is ITA can’t even fly the LCY-LIN route themselves and have to wet lease German Airways.

Slot leases started long before QR ownership of Air Italy, in the meridiana days. Wonder who picked up the 4 daily slots - ITA no doubt !

[SealinkBF]

Loganair extending their LCY to DND service to Kirkwall twice weekly from 4th April 2023.

Loganair bolsters Orkney schedule welcoming first ever London service (https://www.loganair.co.uk/our-story/latest-news/2022/loganair-bolsters-orkney-schedule-welcoming-first-ever-london-service/)

[WHBM]

Snow started here about 7pm Sunday, and LCY seemed to shut operations soon after, didn't restart until around 9am Monday, although the snowfall had ceased by midnight.

Now LCY has a range of snowfighting kit, including a rotary runway sweeper. It's a noisy so-and-so, whose distant howl is audible more than a mile away when in use, and is a traditional sure sign that it's started snowing outside. But last night was silence. One does wonder what was missing that led to the extended shutdown.

[Piece of Cake]

I was told by someone there, that what was missing were the keys to the runway sweeper…

[davidjohnson6]

Eurostar is in significant constraints for various reasons, and is limited to a reduced schedule at high prices to Paris, Lille, Brussels, Amsterdam and a ski train. They have communicated very publicly 3 months ago that they are not doing anything more than the basics for all of 2023. Direct trains from London to anywhere like Avignon are not happening for some time.

I'm wondering why no airline at London City (or any London-area airport) has announced a route to Avignon. It was traditionally flown by Cityjet who have substantially left LCY... there now appears to be a clear gap in the market for S23. And no, I don't believe London-Marseille or Birmingham-Avignon are sufficiently strong competitors to prevent a City-Avignon route from being profitable

[WHBM]

The more relevant potential from LCY seems to be Paris and Brussels. Yes, Eurostar have for some unexpected reason reduced their "service" to a notably high-priced poor one compared to pre-Covid, and in particular abandoning their stations across Kent, which means that LCY becomes more convenient for those south of the Thames than getting to St Pancras train station.

[BA318]

Eurostar is in significant constraints for various reasons, and is limited to a reduced schedule at high prices to Paris, Lille, Brussels, Amsterdam and a ski train. They have communicated very publicly 3 months ago that they are not doing anything more than the basics for all of 2023. Direct trains from London to anywhere like Avignon are not happening for some time.

I'm wondering why no airline at London City (or any London-area airport) has announced a route to Avignon. It was traditionally flown by Cityjet who have substantially left LCY... there now appears to be a clear gap in the market for S23. And no, I don't believe London-Marseille or Birmingham-Avignon are sufficiently strong competitors to prevent a City-Avignon route from being profitable

Worth remembering Cityjet rarely made any money. If anyone goes for this I can only see BA Cityflyer giving it a try. They launched Quimper and Angers before but never really went any further with French holiday routes.

[ATNotts]

Eurostar is in significant constraints for various reasons, and is limited to a reduced schedule at high prices to Paris, Lille, Brussels, Amsterdam and a ski train. They have communicated very publicly 3 months ago that they are not doing anything more than the basics for all of 2023. Direct trains from London to anywhere like Avignon are not happening for some time.

I'm wondering why no airline at London City (or any London-area airport) has announced a route to Avignon. It was traditionally flown by Cityjet who have substantially left LCY... there now appears to be a clear gap in the market for S23. And no, I don't believe London-Marseille or Birmingham-Avignon are sufficiently strong competitors to prevent a City-Avignon route from being profitable

I emphasize this is not a political response!

I read some months ago that Eurostar capacity from St Pancras was / is restricted by the increased border checks following Brexit, the screening area not being large enough. I don't know if the same problems exist at Little and Gare du Nord.

[Asturias56]

"I read some months ago that Eurostar capacity from St Pancras was / is restricted by the increased border checks following Brexit"

No but it does seem to take longer

they've gradually been restoring the frequency of departures post covid. If you're travelling Business Paris is now much smarter than St Pancras - and they've finally cleaned up the touts at Gare du Nord.

"I'm wondering why no airline at London City (or any London-area airport) has announced a route to Avignon" - overall I believe the attraction of travelling to second homes etc has taken a beating due to Brexit & Covid. there are several routes that had served that market but few of them seem to have been restored so far

[ATNotts]

Asturias56,

I wondered just how valid that claim was, since at Eurotunnel in both Folkestone and Calais the time taken to clear formalities appears little different than before.

[tartan 201]

Asturias56,

I wondered just how valid that claim was, since at Eurotunnel in both Folkestone and Calais the time taken to clear formalities appears little different than before.

Eurostar's CEO seems to think it's a valid claim: https://twitter.com/EurostarJustinp/status/1574711574337495041/photo/1

[WHBM]

Eurostar's CEO seems to think it's a valid claim: https://twitter.com/EurostarJustinp/status/1574711574337495041/photo/1
I honestly think it's an excuse for inadequate staffing, even at pre-Covid levels, but it's a handy one that trips off the tongue and doesn't seem to get challenged. Same at some airports. The purpose of a CEO is to portray their company in a positive light, not to report inconvenient truths.

[SWBKCB]

I honestly think it's an excuse for inadequate staffing, even at pre-Covid levels, but it's a handy one that trips off the tongue and doesn't seem to get challenged. Same at some airports. The purpose of a CEO is to portray their company in a positive light, not to report inconvenient truths.

So there has been no change in the documentary requirements for Brits who want to go to the EU? A requirement which has to be checked by somebody he doesn't control?

[ATNotts]

So there has been no change in the documentary requirements for Brits who want to go to the EU? A requirement which has to be checked by somebody he doesn't control?

This is veering well off topic, but I have never used Eurostar since, if you live more than about 50 miles north of London, it makes little sense but the only way I could see that Brexit could impact their St Pancras operation would be if French (EU) border controls were being carried at at St Pancras before boarding the train. Is that how it works? I actually fail to understand why border controls in both direction couldn't be carried out by officers on board the trains - that's how it used to be done across Europe in my Inter-Railing days (very!) pre Schengen and it seemed to work fine then.

[davidjohnson6]

Eurostar immigration checks are done prior to boarding the train. Those travelling from London clear French/Schengen inbound immigration at St Pancras. Those travelling to London clear Schengen outbound and UK inbound immigration in Brussels, Lille or Paris. There is no routine checking of passports by immigration/police on Eurostar trains or on arrival at any stations. This has been the case for a number of years.

Pre-Brexit, Schengen immigration could check only that UK passports were valid - EU freedom of movement prohibited questioning of UK citizens on things like verification of sufficient funds. Post-Brexit, Schengen immigration is *entitled* to check additional items - although this typically happens only if a passenger seems dubious or suspicious. It is worth noting that Schengen arrivals with a non-EU passport will need to be fingerprinted from 2023, which takes additional time. St Pancras departure area is limited on space, so passengers-per-hour processing capacity will be significantly reduced, hence fewer trains can be operated.

The result is that Paris, Lille and Brussels take priority for Eurostar, and London-Avignon trains do not run, leaving a gap in the market for an airline to fly London (City?)-Avignon

[ATNotts]

dj6,

Thanks, that explains it.

[inOban]

Remember that each train carries up to 1500 passengers, I think.

[SWBKCB]

according to the letter linked at #150, capacity at St Pancras is 30% down

[ZULUBOY]

This is veering well off topic, but I have never used Eurostar since, if you live more than about 50 miles north of London, it makes little sense but the only way I could see that Brexit could impact their St Pancras operation would be if French (EU) border controls were being carried at at St Pancras before boarding the train. Is that how it works? I actually fail to understand why border controls in both direction couldn't be carried out by officers on board the trains - that's how it used to be done across Europe in my Inter-Railing days (very!) pre Schengen and it seemed to work fine then.

We live in Birmingham and always use the Eurostar. This year we'll have been to Germany three times and Slovenia using it. Next year it will be Romania. I think a lot of people that use it further than 50 miles from North London will be, like us, taking it to avoid flying.

In terms of the Brexit impact the main difference is that you are having to get your passport stamped by the French border official rather than them taking a cursory glance at it

[davidjohnson6]

Now that we all have a better understanding about the current and future impact of Brexit on the Eurostar... would anyone care to comment on a London City - Avignon route (or to anywhere else in regional France similiar to 10 years ago) being revived ?
Maybe also a Disney-branded travel tie-in route to serve Disneyland Paris as well ? Cabin crew wearing mouse ears, kids get free on-board toy gift, etc... all for a higher fare.... let your fluffy inner marketing persona run wild... you get the idea

[commit aviation]

Sorry for the further thread drift but to return to Eurostar I think an additional concern is the introduction of the ETIAS visa in late 2023.

EU's Entry & Exit System May Bring Logistical Concerns, Several UK Firms Warn - SchengenVisaInfo.com (https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/eus-entry-exit-system-may-bring-logistical-concerns-several-uk-firms-warn/)

The article suggests that accommodating the new machines will lead to space constraints and logistical challenges at ports like Dover and within the confines of St Pancras.
I suspect there is an element of "they would say that wouldn't they" here. Also the article was much earlier in the year so things may have moved on but I have a recollection this was cited as a reason for delaying the reintroduction of Ashford and some of the lower frequency routes.

[BA318]

Reported on Twitter that BACF have dropped Santorini.

[KindaUnstuck]

GCI gone also unfortunately according to London Air Travel / Sean M on Twitter - had previously been bookable.

[davidjohnson6]

Seems LCY wants to open on Saturdays afternoon
Hadn't noticed this under discussion before - apologies if I missed it
https://media.londoncityairport.com/london-city-submits-planning-application-to-the-london-borough-of-newham/

[PAXboy]

LCY want to open up profit. I see they are talking up how many knew jobs it will create. When they oped [1988?] I was working in the City and discussed how long it would be before the weekend limits werd lifted. Sadly, I cannot recall what we decided...

[WHBM]

The Saturday afternoon extra hours (I think until about 5pm) is to offer the services which have in recent years developed to the Mediterranean etc with the weekdays business fleet. Opening between 7am and 1pm as currently on Saturdays just does not give a reliable round trip to the Mediterranean. There's a squadron departure as soon as it opens, but it's found just not reliable enough to be back in time before it closes, with diversions to Gatwick/Stansted or wherever, and for the longer round trips just not possible. Sundays it's not an issue, as it's open from 1pm to 10pm, a Med round trip followed by a Sunday evening outwards to a continental Business point, ready for an early inwards on Monday morning.

There was supposed to have been a local authority (Newham) consultation on this. We live closer than most, and heard absolutely nothing about any such consultation, though I'm sure John Stewart (does he still live in Twickenham ?) will be well to the fore in commenting. In passing, from my own consultations over time, none of our neighbours have any issue with the airport's hours at all.

[Fairdealfrank]

The Saturday afternoon extra hours (I think until about 5pm) is to offer the services which have in recent years developed to the Mediterranean etc with the weekdays business fleet. Opening between 7am and 1pm as currently on Saturdays just does not give a reliable round trip to the Mediterranean. There's a squadron departure as soon as it opens, but it's found just not reliable enough to be back in time before it closes, with diversions to Gatwick/Stansted or wherever, and for the longer round trips just not possible. Sundays it's not an issue, as it's open from 1pm to 10pm, a Med round trip followed by a Sunday evening outwards to a continental Business point, ready for an early inwards on Monday morning.

There was supposed to have been a local authority (Newham) consultation on this. We live closer than most, and heard absolutely nothing about any such consultation, though I'm sure John Stewart (does he still live in Twickenham ?) will be well to the fore in commenting. In passing, from my own consultations over time, none of our neighbours have any issue with the airport's hours at all.

John Stewart? Thought he lived in Vauxhall, far away from any airports. Could be wrong.....

[LTNman]

More on Saturday afternoon flights

London City Airport plans extra weekend flights https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64581118

[SKOJB]

More on Saturday afternoon flights

London City Airport plans extra weekend flights https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64581118

Initially proposed on the proviso that the added hours were flown by E2/A220 aircraft. From this article it seems this is no longer the case and instead ‘might’ incentivise greener fleets for the future!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

John Stewart? Thought he lived in Vauxhall, far away from any airports. Could be wrong.....
IMHO Vauxhall is particularly noisy, just like Clapham. All those Heathrow inbounds turning onto final making power adjustments to make the speed requirements. It's VERY noticeable locally....

[WHBM]

Initially proposed on the proviso that the added hours were flown by E2/A220 aircraft. From this article it seems this is no longer the case and instead ‘might’ incentivise greener fleets for the future!
The main aim is to allow based aircraft to make meaningful return Saturday flights to Mediterranean destinations. The current LCY operators of E2/A220 aircraft are based in Europe, and have no issue doing an in/out on Saturday mornings, so this seems aimed squarely at BA Cityflyer, who have been suspected of looking at fleet replacements. Extra Saturday utilisation might be part of this financial justification, with each (BA for replacement and the council for permission) wanting to wait for the other to move.

If I was LCY having to pull this together I would be emphasising that allowing the Saturday flights would allow BA to justify starting to replacing their entire based fleet, with noise benefits all week, not just the new operations. Give the permission, restrict it to the new types, with an exemption for say the first three years to allow the new aircraft to be ordered and start introduction.

If LCY want further offsets, offer to withdraw the permission for the Piaggio Avanti business turboprop, only a few come through but which, whatever its official certification numbers, seems to make noise beyond anything previously used at the airport. It's even prominent when overflying at altitude !

[BA318]

Installation of arrestor beds at LCY is underway. It is said that their installation will support the certification of the E195E2 and the A220-300.

[Expressflight]

I thought arrester beds served only to provide an alternative to a RESA (Runway End Safety Area) where the latter is not available due to space limitations. I wonder why they have not been thought necessary begore now - the size of an aircraft doesn't necessarily determine the likelihood of an overrun.

[Musket90]

I thought arrester beds served only to provide an alternative to a RESA (Runway End Safety Area) where the latter is not available due to space limitations. I wonder why they have not been thought necessary begore now - the size of an aircraft doesn't necessarily determine the likelihood of an overrun.

The physical runway length is just over 1500m but declared distances are much less in order to provide RESA. I believe providing the arrestor beds will substitute for a RESA enabling more runway length to be used to increase increase declared distances. This should mean aircraft can operate at increased weight. Providing these beds must be very costly so perhaps the business case now adds up.

[Expressflight]

The physical runway length is just over 1500m but declared distances are much less in order to provide RESA. I believe providing the arrestor beds will substitute for a RESA enabling more runway length to be used to increase increase declared distances. This should mean aircraft can operate at increased weight. Providing these beds must be very costly so perhaps the business case now adds up.
I thought the limiting factor at LCY was the fact that it has a Code 2 runway due to insufficient strip width being available to be Code 3 (see CAP 168). That fact alone should limit the declared distances irrespective of whether a RESA or arrester bed is in place.

[Musket90]

I thought the limiting factor at LCY was the fact that it has a Code 2 runway due to insufficient strip width being available to be Code 3 (see CAP 168). That fact alone should limit the declared distances irrespective of whether a RESA or arrester bed is in place.

London City is unique and I believe has CAA approved exemptions based on runway Code 3 criteria. CAP168 some years ago permitted runways to remain within Code 2 criteria if the length was limited to within 10% above Code 2 hence the present 1319m figure which is 10% more than the 1199m Code 2 limit. This policy, however, no longer applies. According to the CAA web site the airport has a UK Certificate which used to be an EASA Certificate before Brexit law was implemented so the EASA regulations as adopted into UK law presently apply to City rather than CAP168.which is the requirement for National licensed aerodromes.

[Expressflight]

London City is unique and I believe has CAA approved exemptions based on runway Code 3 criteria. CAP168 some years ago permitted runways to remain within Code 2 criteria if the length was limited to within 10% above Code 2 hence the present 1319m figure which is 10% more than the 1199m Code 2 limit. This policy, however, no longer applies. According to the CAA web site the airport has a UK Certificate which used to be an EASA Certificate before Brexit law was implemented so the EASA regulations as adopted into UK law presently apply to City rather than CAP168.which is the requirement for National licensed aerodromes.
What do the EASA regulations have to say regarding declared distances on what is basically a Code 2 runway? Will the 1319m figure be increased or remain as is? The CAA don't seem to have applied the 10% increase to Code 3 runways, otherwise SEN would have greater declared distances than it now has. Perhaps SEN forgot to ask!

[SWBKCB]

London City is unique and I believe has CAA approved exemptions based on runway Code 3 criteria. CAP168 some years ago permitted runways to remain within Code 2 criteria if the length was limited to within 10% above Code 2 hence the present 1319m figure which is 10% more than the 1199m Code 2 limit. This policy, however, no longer applies. According to the CAA web site the airport has a UK Certificate which used to be an EASA Certificate before Brexit law was implemented so the EASA regulations as adopted into UK law presently apply to City rather than CAP168.which is the requirement for National licensed aerodromes.

Not sure I follow - if CAP168 applied when we were in EASA and following EASA regulations, how does it not apply now we aren't in EASA but have adopted EASA regulations into UK law?

[Musket90]

Not sure I follow - if CAP168 applied when we were in EASA and following EASA regulations, how does it not apply now we aren't in EASA but have adopted EASA regulations into UK law?

Not all aerodromes were in EASA scope (mainly smaller ones) hence they remained as national licensed under CAP168 rules. I can only think that eventually CAA will have one regulatory document for all UK aerodromes.

As for runway coding and the previous 10% more length policy, this only applied to Code 1 and 2 runways (799m and 1199m respectively) so places like Southend wouldn't count.

[SWBKCB]

LCY first UK airport to allow up to 2 litres of liquids inside bags?.Teesside disagrees!

London City Airport chief executive Robert Sinclair said: ‘The good news for anyone planning a holiday or a business trip is that we will be the first mainstream UK airport to offer a fully CT security experience from the end of this month. The new lanes will not only cut hassle but also queuing times, which I know passengers will love.'

https://media.londoncityairport.com/steady-start-to-2023-at-lcy-as-airport-on-track-to-deliver-new-security-experience-by-easter/Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen said: “Once again Teesside is at the forefront of developments in the aviation industry, with our C3 scanners in place and already being used in the roll-out of the new rules, coming into force elsewhere next year.

“Some airports have announced they’re looking to end the restriction in time for the Easter holidays, but we’re one step ahead in having already scrapped the limit – showing how local, regional airports are going further, faster for the people that they serve. Passenger safety and experience is front-and-centre of all we do at Teesside Airport, and these scanners play a massive part in both.

https://www.teessideinternational.com/news/teesside-airport-is-uks-first-to-scrap-100ml-liquid-security-limit/

Is LCY dissing Teesside by saying they aren't a "mainstream UK airport" - fight, fight...

[davidjohnson6]

Sadiq Khan not happy with London City having more flights at the weekend. Seems like there's going to be a long fight (well, everyone expected a long fight even if they didn't admit it publicly) with plenty of haggling involved
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65086374

[Cazza_fly]

Sadiq Khan not happy with London City having more flights at the weekend. Seems like there's going to be a long fight (well, everyone expected a long fight even if they didn't admit it publicly) with plenty of haggling involved
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65086374

The sooner that horrible specimen is out of offioe, the better. Yes, the next will most likely be no better, but hes been the worst for London. The woke thst he bows to please, will never wake up.

[cuthere]

OED definition of “woke”:

“alert to and concerned about social injustice and discrimination”

About time people learned to stop using this word in the above context as an insult; unless of course one thinks social injustice and discrimination is fine…..

I’m not sure opposing increased flight operations at an airport in east London makes a person a “specimen”, or any worse, or better, than someone who supports it.

Odd argument.

[Cazza_fly]

OED definition of “woke”:

“alert to and concerned about social injustice and discrimination”

About time people learned to stop using this word in the above context as an insult; unless of course one thinks social injustice and discrimination is fine…..

I’m not sure opposing increased flight operations at an airport in east London makes a person a “specimen”, or any worse, or better, than someone who supports it.

Odd argument.

Hardly odd... even though the above is only the "definition" for what people want it to mean, the reality is rather VERY different. If anything, your response epitomises it.

[cuthere]

No. OED is the Oxford English Dictionary. The authority on the English language. It may not suit your narrative, but the definition above is accurate. Don’t like it? Get in touch with the OED.

I’ve no doubt when people use the word “woke” they are either too stupid, too brainwashed (by media owned by non-dom tax-avoiders), or are wilfully ignorant as to its meaning. I suppose it’s a gentler word those that some would like to use…..

[DC3 Dave]

Seems very strange having a pop at Khan over this. Wasn’t it the case that in 2016 he reversed Boris’ effective mayoral veto on a compulsory purchase order that allowed the airport to grow to where it is able to today?

[AirportPlanner1]

I’d have said with great certainty based on comparative issues elsewhere that its the ‘non-woke’ who would have most to say on noise issues, further demonstrating the above poster has no clue what they’re talking. For their own good and wellbeing they might want to leave the Mail on the shelf and not visit the local neighbourhood Facebook groups for a few days

[ATNotts]

I’d have said with great certainty based on comparative issues elsewhere that its the ‘non-woke’ who would have most to say on noise issues, further demonstrating the above poster has no clue what they’re talking.

Undoubtedly yes. And they may well have a case since when they bought their overpriced broom cupboards they knew there were restrictions on movements at LCY so to say "they moved in after the airport was opened" which is the normal response to residents complaining about aircraft noise may be a rather more difficult argument to make in this situation.

[WHBM]

Loganair moving Dundee flights away from LCY to Heathrow from May :

Loganair: New direct Dundee flights to Heathrow Airport (thecourier.co.uk) (https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/business-environment/business/4311676/loganair-new-direct-dundee-flights-to-heathrow-airport-for-first-time/)

[pabely]

Pax & Operating Hours increase blocked
https://www.cityam.com/grounded-council-blocks-plan-for-london-city-airport-passenger-and-hours-expansion/

[davidjohnson6]

Is this (almost) the end of LCY's expansion attempt ? Or is this just the start of a long negotiation and planning process with Newham and the GLA ?

[SWBKCB]

The linked article says:

The application will now be referred to the GLA for a final decision.

[cavokblues]

And no doubt if the decision goes against them at the GLA, then an appeal to the Planning Inspectorate.

[Lord Bracken]

As a local resident (the departure route for LCY 27 and arrival route for 27L/R at LHR seem to intersect above my house) I am very much in favour of LCY expansion particularly if it leads to all-year-round services to FAO rather than just 1x daily in summer.

[stewyb]

Was never getting approved at local level with that volume of pax increase, an additional 4m seems absurd!

[DC3 Dave]

Given the GLA have expanded the ULEZ to all London boroughs would they not lose all credibility if they agreed to any expansion at LCY.

[pabely]

As a local resident (the departure route for LCY 27 and arrival route for 27L/R at LHR seem to intersect above my house) I am very much in favour of LCY expansion particularly if it leads to all-year-round services to FAO rather than just 1x daily in summer.
You could always commute to Southend, I'm sure they would welcome the business! Ops only x2 week but flights available for £22!

[LTNman]

A spokesperson for Newham Council said this afternoon that “the refusal reflects the council’s continued concerns over the noise and environmental impact of the airport on those living nearby. These concerns were shared by a number of other boroughs who also submitted objections to the proposals.”


A socially responsible council that puts the local population first unlike a certain council I could name.

[BA318]

A socially responsible council that puts the local population first unlike a certain council I could name.

more likely they are scared because the greens won two seats on Newham Council providing them with some opposition (Newham Council has been 100% Labour for the past 10 years at least). Nothing with the airport has changed. They are just being political and making sure they can fight their opposition when the time comes.

[pabely]

A socially responsible council that puts the local population first unlike a certain council I could name.
Not sure Newham locals will totally agree with that with local issues on housing & crime probally higher up their agenda.
Remember North Somerset Council objected to Bristol Airport expansion but once it was referred to Government was given green light and a High Court appeal was rejected so I'm sure this is not the end.

[LTNman]

more likely they are scared because the greens won two seats on Newham Council providing them with some opposition (Newham Council has been 100% Labour for the past 10 years at least). Nothing with the airport has changed. They are just being political and making sure they can fight their opposition when the time comes.

Two opposition councillors will have zero influence no matter how loud they shout. The proposals are to expand the airport not leave it as it is so clearly there is some opposition.

[davidjohnson6]

LCY to appeal against Newham council rejection
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/129740-london-city-airport-to-appeal-growth-ban-by-council

[V_2]

The carbon argument is a bit flawed really. The majority of the fleet just go elsewhere to fly at the weekend, including Scotland, so the flights are already happening. One could make the argument by relocating back to LCY, those flights would be shorter and now better for the environment.

[LTNman]

Airports like LCY have selective memories. They agreed to limits being imposed so should stop complaining when it becomes inconvenient. Those limits were agreed to offer residents respite and were part of the original planning permission.

[ATNotts]

Airports like LCY have selective memories. They agreed to limits being imposed so should stop complaining when it becomes inconvenient. Those limits were agreed to offer residents respite and were part of the original planning permission.
Its surely a normal commercial ploy; get the airport up and running then push the boundaries.

Sort of reminds me of the charity that asks for £2 per month then badgers the donors for £3, the £5, then 10 etc etc.

[cavokblues]

To be fair, it's also how the world of planning works. Consent isn't granted in perpetuity and set as something which can never be changed.

[AirportPlanner1]

To be fair, it's also how the world of planning works. Consent isn't granted in perpetuity and set as something which can never be changed.

Agreed, also much has changed since the original consent. Very few of the original residents will still be around, everyone else has moved in with full knowledge there is an airport in the vicinity. If they haven’t done their due diligence and considered future risks it’s on them.

Mind you, people buy brand new houses on brand new estates and then try to object to more new houses where they’ve just moved into.

[SWBKCB]

Very few of the original residents will still be around, everyone else has moved in with full knowledge there is an airport in the vicinity. If they haven’t done their due diligence and considered future risks it’s on them.

So they should assume the existing legal agreements will be reneged on rather than honoured, and more fool them if that happens?

[cavokblues]

I don't agree it's on the residents for moving there but City are equally entitled to appeal it.

Newham council have concluded expansion would be contrary to their planning policies and would be harmful to the amenity of nearby residents. The onus is now on London City to demonstrate to the Planning Inspector that it not the case.

[SKOJB]

Question would be how on earth are they going to add 4m additional pax? That’s a crazy % increase and not sure it can be reasonably accommodated with such restrictive infrastructure

[SWBKCB]

A break down of where the 4,500 jobs would come from would also be interesting

[Asturias56]

You count the actual jobs and multiply by about 20 to cover the "knock-on effects"

No-one ever believes you

[AirportPlanner1]

So they should assume the existing legal agreements will be reneged on rather than honoured, and more fool them if that happens?

No but as a newcomer it would be prudent to risk assess whether at some point in the future existing circumstances may change.

[fjencl]

ITA Airways to change E190 operator for London City route(Can't see the whole story as its behind a pay wall) However, this might be the news that Eastern Airways will be operating for ITA instead of German Airways (perhaps) !!!

ITA Airways to change E190 operator for London City route - ch-aviation (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/130521-ita-airways-to-change-e190-operator-for-london-city-route)

[SKOJB]

ITA Airways to change E190 operator for London City route(Can't see the whole story as its behind a pay wall) However, this might be the news that Eastern Airways will be operating for ITA instead of German Airways (perhaps) !!!

ITA Airways to change E190 operator for London City route - ch-aviation (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/130521-ita-airways-to-change-e190-operator-for-london-city-route)

Almost certainly, I only hope their timekeeping is better than that at SOU!

[Asturias56]

ITA Airways to change E190 operator for London City route(Can't see the whole story as its behind a pay wall) However, this might be the news that Eastern Airways will be operating for ITA instead of German Airways (perhaps) !!!

ITA Airways to change E190 operator for London City route - ch-aviation (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/130521-ita-airways-to-change-e190-operator-for-london-city-route)


well that s it then - Eastern must be one of the worst airlines around for cancellations, delays and just general inefficiency

[WHBM]

I think that ITA/German Airways gave up London City at the end of June, so there has been no summer service. Whether this was intentional, and permanent or just temporarily over the summer, is not apparent. When are ITA/Eastern looking at restarting ?

[mmeteesside]

I think that ITA/German Airways gave up London City at the end of June, so there has been no summer service. Whether this was intentional, and permanent or just temporarily over the summer, is not apparent. When are ITA/Eastern looking at restarting ?
Looks to be bookable from this Saturday!

[WHBM]

Yes, Eastern Embraer G-CLSN positioned on Friday afternoon from Humberside to Milan Linate, and started on a round trip schedule to LCY and back this morning, Saturday 12 August.

[WHBM]

Well, here we are, all set with the family to depart LCY this afternoon to Palma on holiday, and guess what - cancelled by BA about 2 hours before departure. Just as we were preparing to leave home.

Cancelled. On me. BA and LCY's longtime supporter, here and elsewhere ... ! ! !

I hadn't quite appreciated however how far BA irregular ops procedures had sunk. We were only advised by SMS text, and that we were auto rebooked one day later - from Heathrow. This was despite there being on the website seats still available that day from LCY. So a call to bookings was eventually answered, where it was apparent that the (non-UK, non-English first language) BA irregular ops agent had no idea (or was fed by their computer screen) that LCY and LHR are separate airports, I'm just requoted flights from LHR and only by reading the timetable out to them with flight numbers etc do I manage to get rebooked out of LCY.

Seems to have been a right shambles developed, with a string of cancellations. The parallel Ibiza round trip was also cancelled and their originally booked aircraft sent off at the same departure time to Frankfurt instead.

Meanwhile the website showed our outward flight cancelled, but stated in no uncertain terms that there was no compensation payable for the costs of getting to a different departure point. The spirit of Alex Cruz seems to live on. I suppose we will have to see what the three of us get out of EU261 etc, the loss of our prepaid hotel for us all, etc.

Now I've had cancellations before (way back in the PPRuNe history somewhere is an account of being stuck on the wrong side of the Atlantic during the 'volcano' episode quite some years ago), but really the whole thing is now just treated as an admin exercise in changing reservations, nothing more. Oh well, see you on the afternoon Palma tomorrow,

They had never even noticed from the data on the reservation that 27 August is Mrs WHBM's ( :) ) birthday .... :(

[Musket90]

Weather in Majorca today was and still is very poor with strong winds and thunderstorms. Maybe this had something to do with it.

[davidjohnson6]

WHBM - I was cancelled out of LCY an hour before departure about two weeks ago - weather was good in London and at destination. Had a similiar set of emails/text messages. Tried to phone customer service but got a "we have too many calls right now so we cannot answer you, goodbye". Rebooked myself using app onto a flight earlier than that offered by email. I put in an EU261 claim a day after expected arrival time... had an email agreeing to pay £220 within a week.

[Downwind_Left]

Well, here we are, all set with the family to depart LCY this afternoon to Palma on holiday, and guess what - cancelled by BA about 2 hours before departure. Just as we were preparing to leave home.

Cancelled. On me. BA and LCY's longtime supporter, here and elsewhere ... ! ! !

I hadn't quite appreciated however how far BA irregular ops procedures had sunk. We were only advised by SMS text, and that we were auto rebooked one day later - from Heathrow. This was despite there being on the website seats still available that day from LCY. So a call to bookings was eventually answered, where it was apparent that the (non-UK, non-English first language) BA irregular ops agent had no idea (or was fed by their computer screen) that LCY and LHR are separate airports, I'm just requoted flights from LHR and only by reading the timetable out to them with flight numbers etc do I manage to get rebooked out of LCY.

Seems to have been a right shambles developed, with a string of cancellations. The parallel Ibiza round trip was also cancelled and their originally booked aircraft sent off at the same departure time to Frankfurt instead.

Meanwhile the website showed our outward flight cancelled, but stated in no uncertain terms that there was no compensation payable for the costs of getting to a different departure point. The spirit of Alex Cruz seems to live on. I suppose we will have to see what the three of us get out of EU261 etc, the loss of our prepaid hotel for us all, etc.

Now I've had cancellations before (way back in the PPRuNe history somewhere is an account of being stuck on the wrong side of the Atlantic during the 'volcano' episode quite some years ago), but really the whole thing is now just treated as an admin exercise in changing reservations, nothing more. Oh well, see you on the afternoon Palma tomorrow,

They had never even noticed from the data on the reservation that 27 August is Mrs WHBM's ( :) ) birthday .... :(

Presumably the flights were cancelled for safety reasons due the frankly horrific weather in the Balearics today. Heavy thunderstorms, reports of severe turbulence and winds gusting up to 55kt in Palma, with a 47kt crosswind component… way outside any airliners limitations.

Most flights into Palma on all airlines appear to have been cancelled this afternoon, the rest heavily delayed. I think your EU-261 compensation will undoubtedly be rejected, claim hotel costs from your travel insurance. I think any attempt to fly to Palma this afternoon would have been frightening, unpleasant and probably culminating in a diversion to Barcelona.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1377x1394/img_2548_2e4665b2f072930aa9b6d20a2f7f2b24a76cb173.jpeg

[MARKEYD]

Well, here we are, all set with the family to depart LCY this afternoon to Palma on holiday, and guess what - cancelled by BA about 2 hours before departure. Just as we were preparing to leave home.

Cancelled. On me. BA and LCY's longtime supporter, here and elsewhere ... ! ! !

I hadn't quite appreciated however how far BA irregular ops procedures had sunk. We were only advised by SMS text, and that we were auto rebooked one day later - from Heathrow. This was despite there being on the website seats still available that day from LCY. So a call to bookings was eventually answered, where it was apparent that the (non-UK, non-English first language) BA irregular ops agent had no idea (or was fed by their computer screen) that LCY and LHR are separate airports, I'm just requoted flights from LHR and only by reading the timetable out to them with flight numbers etc do I manage to get rebooked out of LCY.

Seems to have been a right shambles developed, with a string of cancellations. The parallel Ibiza round trip was also cancelled and their originally booked aircraft sent off at the same departure time to Frankfurt instead.

Meanwhile the website showed our outward flight cancelled, but stated in no uncertain terms that there was no compensation payable for the costs of getting to a different departure point. The spirit of Alex Cruz seems to live on. I suppose we will have to see what the three of us get out of EU261 etc, the loss of our prepaid hotel for us all, etc.

Now I've had cancellations before (way back in the PPRuNe history somewhere is an account of being stuck on the wrong side of the Atlantic during the 'volcano' episode quite some years ago), but really the whole thing is now just treated as an admin exercise in changing reservations, nothing more. Oh well, see you on the afternoon Palma tomorrow,

They had never even noticed from the data on the reservation that 27 August is Mrs WHBM's ( :) ) birthday .... :(

Guess you haven’t seen or read about the chaos in Majorca and Palma airport today with the horrific thunderstorms , rain and wind that have hit the island today ( just goggle some of the videos)

The multiple cancellations of flights, diversions and delays that have happened might now give you the reason why BA City flyer have cancelled

[WHBM]

I do of course accept such issues arise, but my comments were more about the subsequent handling, auto-rebooking onto a flight next day from a different airport when there were seats available from the original point, and the difficulty in even being understood by BA rebookings that there are two separate airports in London.,

[AirportPlanner1]

Perhaps having you all at LHR makes it easier to further shift you all to another flight/route to PMI or larger aircraft at short notice if need be, remember they’re re-accommodating not just your flight but also LHR and LGW too. And it’s not like you’re in Bournemouth and being sent to Essex or Birmingham. It’s a public transport journey across the same city.

[V_2]

The LHR leaves earlier. Ok it’s an hour but it’s the next available LON flight and some would prefer to restart their holiday asap even if it’s another airport. If LHR was 6 hours earlier you’d probably have wanted that one. And your assumption that the website selling tickets =seats available is not 100% correct.

[WHBM]

Well, for those who enjoy the Schadenfreude of this, we're currently in LCY, where due to the ATC failure departure is now scheduled for 1am tomorrow morning. Which is obviously not going to happen.

[WHBM]

Finally got to Palma on Wednesday ... 3 days late.

Sunday : Cancelled due to Mediterranean weather.
Monday : Cancelled due to ATC issue.
Tuesday : No more seats available.
Wednesday : Finally.

It does point to a significant downside, which never really struck me before, in using scheduled carriers to holiday destinations (generally at much higher prices). If you go with say Jet2 from Stansted, then although there may be a long delay and you get away at midnight, at least you get away. They rearrange, charter in from Titan, whatever. But go with BA from LCY and if there is an issue, it's just cancelled and you are back to the reservation system for whatever it has left. They may go daily, but a cancellation pretty quickly fills up what is left. Nor are you just sent emails with a phone number to rebook, which is just playing a recording that they are too busy, try later.

[AirportPlanner1]

Given your story it sounds like I’m being funny - genuinely I’m not - but what ‘scheduled’ airlines (assuming you don’t mean LCCs) generally offer is alternative options. Either from other nearby airports as BA originally offered you, or indirect routes with alliance partners (eg a mishap with Delta saw them re-route me via an alternative domestic hub onto Virgin). Whereas if you are with Jet2 or TUI and your flight/holiday is cancelled and they don’t/can’t charter an alternative you may get offered somewhere different or a refund. The wrong destination with EZY/FR and you may be waiting a few days, although generally they too are fine as they may fly to nearby airports at either end.

[WHBM]

Given your story it sounds like I’m being funny - genuinely I’m not - but what ‘scheduled’ airlines (assuming you don’t mean LCCs) generally offer is alternative options. Either from other nearby airports as BA originally offered you, or indirect routes with alliance partners (eg a mishap with Delta saw them re-route me via an alternative domestic hub onto Virgin). Whereas if you are with Jet2 or TUI and your flight/holiday is cancelled and they don’t/can’t charter an alternative you may get offered somewhere different or a refund.
By way of rebuttal, at our hotel there happened to be a couple of Jet2 Reps one day, who I engaged in conversation about how they had handled the previous weekend with two consecutive days of disruption.

"Oh, it was chaotic at the airport all weekend. Some guests came in more than 12 hours late". When I described how we were three days late arriving, and that BA had issued a phone number to rebook ourselves which just played a recording that they were too busy to take phone calls, there was general disbelief.

Incidentally, that 'originally offered from nearby airports' flight was subsequently just cancelled, as well.

[davidjohnson6]

I understand BACF will fly 2x weekly between LCY and San Sebastian in Spain. Lovely city in summer when the sun is out... but who are the people travelling this route in January ? I could understand if it was 2x daily in summer and 2x weekly in winter... but the winter and summer frequencies look to both be 2x weekly. It's on the Atlantic coast, near the Pyrenees which tends to mean a lot of rain in winter...

[BA318]

I understand BACF will fly 2x weekly between LCY and San Sebastian in Spain. Lovely city in summer when the sun is out... but who are the people travelling this route in January ? It's on the Atlantic coast, near the Pyrenees which tends to mean an awful lot of rain in winter...

It's quite a foody city so that doesn't need good weather to attract enough people to fill an E190 twice a week. Plus it's the city's only link to London so that probably adds some local traffic and perhaps they get a subsidy from the city like some of BACF other routes do.

It's being rumoured that BACF will launch LCY-Bastia next summer too.

[_aax1]

Is there any word on Munich returning with BA, was lost during Covid but never came back?

[BA318]

Is there any word on Munich returning with BA, was lost during Covid but never came back?

Not heard anything. Wish BACF would bring back some of their routes. CPH and ARN are top of my wish list.

[virginblue]

With a couple of BACF routes not resumed post-COVID, does BACF have aircraft mothballed or returned to a lessor ? I assume they can make operations work with a smaller fleet.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Yup, the 6 ER7s left but so did an additional 4 ER9s. Business travel hasn't bounced back just yet.

[jmdavies86]

Business travel hasn't bounced back just yet.

Might the opening of the Elizabeth Line, which offers direct services from Abbey Wood to Heathrow in approx 60mins, also had a bit of an impact on the number of users choosing to fly from/to LCY as well...?

[pabely]

Business travel hasn't bounced back just yet.
Blame MS Teams & Zoom for that and the people who work in their PJ's.

[WHBM]

Also carriers like BA who progressively during Lockdown knocked me back from Silver to Bronze to Blue. The upsides of keeping the benefits kept me on BA. Why should I bother now ?

[ATNotts]

Blame MS Teams & Zoom for that and the people who work in their PJ's.
That and corporate desires to espouse "green" policy, or move towards "net zero"; not to mention double down on expenses such a hotels and entertaining.

Covid-19 made businesses realise that often business travel is an unnecessary expense.

[Aero Mad]

Blame MS Teams & Zoom for that and the people who work in their PJ's.

...and who are now able to read their children a bedtime story, see them grow up, share out parenting, not divorce, not get distracted by vapid water-cooler chats or micro-managing seniors...

It's great that people are now more able to fly, and travel for work, when they want to, rather than when they have to.

[tictack67]

Also carriers like BA who progressively during Lockdown knocked me back from Silver to Bronze to Blue. The upsides of keeping the benefits kept me on BA. Why should I bother now ?

The problem already exists that you get People trying to use airline X's lounge with a different FQTV clubs silver status when they are acrually flying airline Y on basic level FQTV with another alliance.

Hang around any Business class lounge entrance desk and you'll hear the arguments

[V_2]

The problem already exists that you get People trying to use airline X's lounge with a different FQTV clubs silver status when they are acrually flying airline Y on basic level FQTV with another alliance.

Hang around any Business class lounge entrance desk and you'll hear the arguments

not a problem that exists at LCY of course

[davidjohnson6]

The problem already exists that you get People trying to use airline X's lounge with a different FQTV clubs silver status when they are acrually flying airline Y on basic level FQTV with another alliance.

Hang around any Business class lounge entrance desk and you'll hear the arguments
You mean people try it on ? Shock horror ! :=

[BA318]

In actual news the E195E2 is now certificated for LCY.

[pabely]

In actual news the E195E2 is now certificated for LCY.
Which operator sponsored it, ie waiting in wings to use it - Or was it Embraer themselves?

[BA318]

Which operator sponsored it, ie waiting in wings to use it - Or was it Embraer themselves?

Think Embraer did it. But KLM has mentioned before it will use it at LCY.

[jmdavies86]

Which operator sponsored it, ie waiting in wings to use it - Or was it Embraer themselves?

It was Embraer themselves - they sent their demonstration E195-E2 aircraft over to LCY for the first time after the Farnborough Airshow last year.

[Lord Bracken]

Might the opening of the Elizabeth Line, which offers direct services from Abbey Wood to Heathrow in approx 60mins, also had a bit of an impact on the number of users choosing to fly from/to LCY as well...?

I doubt it. I can now get a direct train from my local LIz line station (a short bus ride away) to Heathrow Central in 49 minutes but if there is a flight available to the same destination from City (same bus, plus 15 minutes on the DLR) then I will always choose the latter due to the significantly superior airport experience (and I have a BA Gold card so can use all the LHR "frills" which IME are overcrowded and substandard compared to what they were like a few years back).

[nguba]

It's been reported that BA CityFlyer has taken LCY-DUS off sale for the summer 2024 season, which is most likely because it has been suspended. The structural shift in business travel is clearly hitting LCY hard.

https://twitter.com/tofly_totravel/status/1733173275738394914