Continuing ATPLs with UK CAA after starting with Austro

[jr6565]

Hi, I've just got a couple of questions regarding my ATPLs. I did a sitting with Austro Control last year and since the then I've decided against going for an EASA licence, I'm quite happy with a CAA one, so I'm planning on doing my remaining exams with the CAA. As I understand it, the CAA have said they'll accept non-UK, EASA exams for the issue of a licence until the end of 2022, providing they were sat before the end of 2020.

Does anyone know how I go about getting the CAA to recognise the existing exam passes? Do I need to do anything now, or is it just when I'm applying for a licence?

Also, the condition about it being for the issue of a licence up until the end of 2022... what happens if I get my CPL/MEIR before the end of 2022, but at some point down the road after that, I want to do an FI rating? That would require ATPL passes but if it was after the end of 2022, would my Austrian passes be worthless? The same question applies for any other licence or rating that requires ATPL passes, or unfreezing the ATPL itself, surely in applying for a full ATPL when you have the relevant experience and have done the skills test, they require proof of your exams, and given that that will be long after 2022 for me, won't my exam passes be inadequate by then?

Basically I'm wondering if I should just redo all my exams with the UK CAA to stay on the safe side, it would be annoying, but far less annoying than having to do all the exams again in a few years.

I know this might not be known by anyone at this stage but if anyone has any useful input it'd be appreciated.

[BillieBob]

1. Austro Control should provide you with a letter stating which subjects you have passed and on what date, which should be submitted with your licence application to the UK CAA.

2. If, when applying for a FI certificate, you hold a CPL, that in itself is evidence that you have passed at least the CPL exams. You would only need separate evidence of exam passes if you were applying for the FI certificate to be added to a PPL and for this purpose, the validity of the exams is not limited.

[jr6565]

That's very helpful thank you. I'm wondering if the same applies to the IR. If I had a CPL but no IR at the end of 2022 and then did the MEIR after... would my exams be no good, or does having the CPL relieve me of that time limit (obviously the 3 year limit from the last exam would still apply)?

[BillieBob]

The exams remain valid for 3 years for issue of an IR from the date that you pass the last subject. Holding a CPL does not affect the validity of the exams.
FCL.025 Theoretical knowledge examinations for the issue of licences and ratings
(c) Validity period

(1) The successful completion of the theoretical knowledge examinations will be valid:

(i) for the issue of a light aircraft pilot licence or a private pilot licence, for a period of 24 months;

(ii) for the issue of a commercial pilot licence, instrument rating (IR) or en route instrument rating (EIR), for a period of 36 months;

(iii) the periods in (i) and (ii) shall be counted from the day when the pilot successfully completes the theoretical knowledge examination, in accordance with (b)(2).

[jr6565]

Thanks for your response again, but what I really meant was will the CAA still recognise the Austro Control exams after the end of 2022 for the issue of an IR. I would assume not, as they say that they're only valid for the issue of a licence until the end of 2022, but my question really is whether the IR would be classed as a "licence" and I would therefore have to get it before the end of 2022 for my AC exams to be any good, or if I get the full 3 years of validity and it's only the CPL I need to get before the end of 2022.

I appreciate this might not be known even by the CAA yet so I appreciate your responses.

[Reverserbucket]

Exam validity for an IR is treated in the same way as for licence issue and for a candidate who completed their TK exams with a non-UK ATO before 31st Dec 2020, the validity for a UK FCL IR issue would be 36 months or until 31st Dec 2022, whichever was sooner, as stated above. However, your case is different as you intend to complete your exams with a UK approved orgainsation post-31st Dec 2020 and there may be scope for granting the full 36 months from the date of successful completion of the last TK exam on the basis that this will be the trigger date for the validity period, provided your earlier 'EASA' credits are still within the 36 months.

I would suggest you contact your UK ATO for definitive guidance here though.

[jr6565]

Thank you for your response, I'm hoping they do permit the full 36 months, but we'll see...

[rudestuff]

Assuming you read pprune you'll never find yourself in this position. (In a well planned modular course you'll do a CBIR before you get a CPL and save yourself 10k.)

[flying.scotsman1]

Could you elaborate on that process?

[rudestuff]

I can try: get your IR first, then get your CPL.

The CPL requires 200 hours but the it does not so if you do the IR first you finish with 200 hours. If you do the CPL first then a "full" IR you still have to do another 17-23 hours on top of your 200 plus 30 hours is SIM.

By planning properly you can replace most of the SIM time with SEP instrument flying (still hour building)
Once you crunch the numbers you'll see you save about 2/3 of the IR cost.

[jr6565]

Wow, I’ve just calculated the cost of that route and assuming getting the max number of hours credited towards the IR the savings are absolutely massive, even if I only got the IR(R) course hours credited it’d still be a big saving. In practice, how many hours do people usually get knocked off? I would have thought that schools want to credit you as few hours as possible so you spend the most training with them, is that true?

Also thank you for pointing that out I had dismissed it before but re running the numbers it seems like everyone should be doing it.

[rudestuff]

It's the biggest secret in flight training 🤫

So yes, you'll find most flight schools will push back against it, generally they'll say things like you shouldn't go back to VFR flying once you've got your IR etc, but ultimately it's about money. They can charge you as much or MORE for an hour in a 30 year old FNPT2 than for an actual airplane!

It's amazing how many people just go off hour building and don't think about what they could pick up along the way to make things easier/cheaper in the future.
The CBIR is specially useful if you're running out of time and/or money and you need to get a CPL/IR to save your ATPL exams. Even a single engine IR will do in that scenario.

You don't get hours knocked off exactly, instead you knock it off your hour building. Instead of doing 40 hours on your own, you pay the extra for 40 hours with an instructor, and knock out your IRR then CBIR while building hours. You basically get an SEIR for about £2000. Everyone has to do the MEP so there's no saving there, but you can upgrade the SEIR to an MEIR with 5 hours so there's savings there as well.

The icing on the cake is that doing the IR first means your CPL course is reduced to 15 hours.

My advice right now: get a CPL/IR an do it all single engine. Don't touch anything multi engine until the job market picks up. You'll save a fortune, you won't have to keep anything current yet you only need about 4-6 weeks to get everything else you need: MEP/MEIR/MCC/JOC

[jr6565]

You sir, are a clever clever man, thank you for enlightening me.

I'm thinking that's what I'll do now - get my IR(R), do some of my hour building IFR, do an SEIR then CPL and the amount of money I've saved will be enough to do something like an FI which I'd probably have had to end up doing to find a job anyway, and as soon as there's a chance of a job in something bigger, knock the multi engine and multi crew stuff out.

So am I right in thinking there's no exam validity issues with potentially leaving it years after your SEIR/CPL to do an MEP/MEIR/MCC/JOC/UPRT, even with the uncertainty around my Austro exams.

I really don't get how I haven't heard about this approach yet, it seems like a no brainer... do people like getting into debt or something!?

[rudestuff]

So am I right in thinking there's no exam validity issues with potentially leaving it years after your SEIR/CPL to do an MEP/MEIR/MCC/JOC/UPRT, even with the uncertainty around my Austro exams.

Nope. The 36 month period is for getting a CPL and *an* IR. After that if you want another IR there are no further exams required. (Generally the next IR would be an MEIR or a first MP IR as part of a type rating, but you could also do a helicopter IR if you really wanted)

As far as the ATPL validity goes, they're good for 7 years from your last IR validity, which means worst case scenario you could do an IR test every 7 years and they'd still be valid. I'd guess that 90% of airline pilots allow their MEIR to lapse (I did!) as they all have to do a MP IR test yearly anyway...

As an aside, it's worth having an SEIR if you intend to keep flying SEP once you're flying multi pilot - it's the only IR you can revalidate without having to take a test. If you fly 3 approaches/departures you can attach a copy of your last LPC and they'll renew it by experience.