Virgin Atlantic-2

[caaardiff]

https://money.usnews.com/investing/news/articles/2021-01-11/virgin-atlantic-close-to-230-million-sale-and-leaseback-deal-for-two-planes

[CabinCrewe]

Is MCO ever going to go this summer? now out to July at earliest.
Presumably the Disney school run is where most of the money comes from on this route so hopefully they can capitalise later.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Things are looking more positive from the UK-end with travel to the US well-placed for government approval (subject to C-19 tests etc.). But right now, UK travellers are still on the banned list from the US perspective. Given the success of the UK vaccination programme and the rapid fall in infection rates, I'd consider the odds of the US easing restrictions on UK visitors by July to be pretty good. Apprehension concerning the 'Indian variant' seems to be key. But the airlines will need some reliable advance notice of government plans if they're to take on the risk of running Summer programmes. The nightmare would be more ruinous last minute bans and restrictions being imposed by squeamish cowardly politicians.

[eye2eye5]

Interesting post until the unpleasant last line. Avoiding unnecessary deaths is neither squeamish nor cowardly.

[OzzyOzBorn]

That is job done re C-19 in the UK. It is no longer even close to being the number one risk to life. Now it is time to accept the rewards we have earned and reopen the economy ... we've all made the sacrifices required to make that possible. And speaking of unnecessary deaths, this whole exercise has been a risk-reward trade-off between COVID-19 on one hand and legacy medical conditions on the other (cardiac, strokes, cancer, mental health issues etc.). A heavy price has been paid by many to place emphasis on C-19 mitigation. That was the right thing to do at the time, but circumstances in the UK have changed now. 'Avoiding unnecessary deaths' now means prioritising those conditions which have been neglected for well over a year. Opening up normal life and ceasing to demonise having fun are part of that process. Travel between safe jurisdictions is a good thing. And yes - some, not all - politicians are cowardly in facing up to decisions on this.

[Dorking]

Well said Ozzy. I for one agree with you.

[BA318]

Seconded. Very well put post.

[southside bobby]

Quote..."That is job done re C-19 in the UK"...&c.

Deary me...Have a care matey & behave.

[davidjohnson6]

The topic of this thread is Virgin Atlantic

There is a separate thread on Coronavirus in Jet Blast - https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/629061-coronavirus-thread.html

[NWSRG]

And a third from me for good measure...

Life is never zero risk...and we're fools to think we can make it so from any particular disease.

And to return to the thread, AFAIK VS have now cancelled the planned BFS-MCO flights for this season. As we only had a short seasonal schedule, there may be more hope for LHR and MAN, perhaps GLA. In any case, it's likely to be 2022 before a trip to Mickey's place looks more like the pre-Covid version, so it would be interesting to see what pent-up demand there would be for this year. Personally, I'm tempted to look to Jan/Feb 22...generally the quieter time of year, and still good weather.

[CabinCrewe]

, perhaps GLA. In any case, it's likely to be 2022 before a trip to Mickey's place
Indeed, GLA now being loaded for 2022, with the Saturday direct service now bookable from April 2022. 1120 dep. Listed as A330-200. I had thought they would have left the fleet by then.

[PAXboy]

Using the VS website to try and book for the first time in nearly two years: Still difficult. I did not expect to be able to find points upgrades as flights are now filling so rapidly. But the site still seemed very poor at indicating where and how to seek for upgrades/companion etc. This included getting a 'ERROR: We cannot handle this request. Try Later." I paraphrase, but it was one of those automated banners like the old '404'.

After doing some other research esewhere, I returned to check prices and options again (LHR-ANU) and the price had increased by £700 for the two of us in the space of 45 minutes. You could say I was not impressed. Following an instruction to ring in with the question, I found an extremely helpful agent (as always) and got matters sorted.

Now I get the standard email: How would you rate your overall experience with our Customer Centre?
In short - I should not have had to cal the call centre!

Is it just me or has the VS website not improved in the last few years? Simple example, top right keeps saying 'Log In' when I am already logged in. This is lazy on their part. More irritating, I find the site does not work well on Firefox and I have to use Edge.

Other views?

[BA318]

BA is the same. Endless issues. The site jumps between different versions and often can’t do the basic tasks it’s supposed to.

[PAXboy]

What amazes me is that, the Virgin Group used to be far ahead on websites. They understood the importance and made them fun and easy. The move to the Delta system saw the change. Not that anyone in VS will admit that (at least, not publically).

[SealinkBF]

V-Flyer, years ago had dozens of complaints about the Virgin website, and its functionality or lack of!

[CabinCrewe]

As publicised by VS
Virgin launch Nassau (https://www.virginatlantic.com/gb/en/blog/OurPlaces/it-s-better-in-the-bahamas.html)
After originally planned for 2009!
789 ex LHR W21

[Downwind_Left]

Relaunch. Virgin flew to Nassau before with a 747-400. Ended March 2007.

[BA318]

https://news.sky.com/story/virgin-atlantic-takes-flight-with-surprise-plot-to-land-on-london-stock-market-12375314

“Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic Airways is plotting a surprise flotation on the London Stock Exchange as it pins its hopes on a rapid rebound in transatlantic travel.”

[D9009]

Raising finance on the stock market rather than by using leverage is a good plan, if there is confidence in the business model then it's a no brainer

[waffler]

And if there is no confidence he is exposed,
how many of us, personally, would invest any of our money now, in an airline, especially one that had trouble making a profit in the good times.
Any money made in a sale, goes to Branson with no guarantee it will be invested back in the airline.
With Virgin Galactic being loss making and bills to pay, it smacks of desperation given he turned down Air France’s bid for his share in Virgin Atlantic a few years ago.
Time will tell...

[fanrailuk]

VS to launch EDI to MCO and BGI.

- MCO will launch 2 weekly from April 2022

- BGI will be 2 weekly from December 2021

[Link Kilo]

Is EDI-MCO in addition to GLA-MCO or instead of?

[Plane mad 134]

EDI-MCO is replacing GLA.

[tictack67]

Replacing, Glasgow PAX will need to connect thru Dubai.

Joking, perhaps Tui will do Gla-Mco

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Glasgow-Florida is a strong point to point leisure market in itself but the end of the B744 doesn't mean both couldn't be served. It does make sense for some routes to be across both, as United and Air Canada both did well and Air Transat stayed West.

[CabinCrewe]

‘The Booth’ on the pack em’ high leisure config A351 sounds a waste of time / space.

[BA318]

is it not in a space which otherwise can’t be used like the lounge? If they can upsell experiences - champagne afternoon tea or something for an hour a time at say £100-£150 there are probably plenty of holiday makers who would pay it on special trips. A 8-10 flight can easily add £1000+ which they otherwise wouldn’t have had.

[davidjohnson6]

Another £400m needed to get through winter 2021-22

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/109981-virgin-atlantic-in-talks-over-400mn-fundraising-report
https://news.sky.com/story/richard-branson-to-land-fresh-400m-funding-injection-for-pandemic-hit-virgin-atlantic-airways-12473208

[PAXboy]

When the A350-1000 was introduced, I understood that it was intended to operate the JNB route and the 787 CPT in the southern summer. Naturally, everything has changed since then but I see that the 787 is still on the JNB run. Does anyone know if this is to continue, or will the 350 take over this route?
Thanks.

[SealinkBF]

Cuba axed before it started, due to "unique complexities".

Virgin Atlantic cancels planned Havana resumption – Business Traveller (https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2022/05/27/virgin-atlantic-cancels-planned-havana-resumption/)

[Wycombe]

Cuba axed before it started, due to "unique complexities".

Virgin Atlantic cancels planned Havana resumption – Business Traveller (https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2022/05/27/virgin-atlantic-cancels-planned-havana-resumption/)
Hopefully I'm not the only one wondering what the "the unique complexities of Cuban operations" actually are?

[PAXboy]

Delta wanting the airframes to support their network more closely? Delta not wanting to be associated with an operation into that 'commie country'?

[GAXLN]

Delta wanting the airframes to support their network more closely? Delta not wanting to be associated with an operation into that 'commie country'?

The US is looking to reopen links with Cuba. https://www.travelpulse.com/news/destinations/biden-administration-seeks-to-expand-authorized-travel-to-cuba.html

it is probably more to do with an anticipated lack of profitable demand that the decision has been taken. When you look at fleet redeployment you always drop the least profitable routes to free up airframes and/or staff resources to concentrate on more profitable markets. If Delta are permitted to take non-US citizens on these reintroduced Cuba flights they might be able to offer connections but I recall last time that there were some restrictions on who could use them.

[davidjohnson6]

AFAIK, Delta own less than 50% of Virgin Atlantic and does not claim to have full control of VS. Any flights operated by VS involving Cuba will be from London, without a stop in the USA. Even if DL were to put their code on these flights, I think there would be very few people booking the flight as a DL ticket rather than a VS ticket, so presumably easy just not to put a DL code on the flights at all - similiar to JetBlue not putting their code on Emirates flights flying in Iranian airspace
Airlines in Canada and Mexico seem to send their aircraft to Cuba without a problem. It should not be difficult for a VS LHR-HAV flight to avoid US airspace if this were to prove necessary

So why would US sanctions cause a problem on a VS LHR-HAV route ?

[PAXboy]

I know that Delta own only 49% to meet international rules but ... after they bought their shares, many things changed. From a pax perspective one of the irritating ones was the website being hosted in the USA and the changes in it.

One simple example, having broken the BA + SAA hold on JNB + CPT, they then dropped CPT. With SAA imploding, this left BA a wide open target. Now they only serve it CPT the southern summer. Again, leaving BA to milk the route.

Thats life.

[VickersVicount]

How did the first month of MCO-EDI do- Full to the gunnels with all the pent up demand ?

[PAXboy]

Today, their booking system was on form:

We had booked to go to ANU.
Had to postpone as it then coincided with the exact week we were moving house.
Accepted a voucher and got all the emails to confirm.
We were due to leave yesterday, 31st May.
1st June, I get a text (SMS) msg telling me that I can now check-in. The same message also tells me that check in will open in 5 days time.
They wonder why do not trust them or their computer systems.

[CabinCrewe]

Perhaps unsurprisingly HKG relaunch been put back again for 6 months until Spring 23..

[PAXboy]

Trying to ascertain the validity time of a voucher. When logging in, the voucher screen appears to show 31st March 2023. I say appears because the screen is laud as if travelling from VOU to CHR. But all in very pale grey text, rather than clearly set out.

Anyone have knowledge on this? Cheers.

[PAXboy]

Have just managed to rebook a voucher with them, through online chat but - what an age. To rebook: Changing destination and one name; agreeing costs and ionfo about seats - took 75 minutes.

A phone call could have dealt with it in a max of 15 minutes. Based on the very long wait between responses from the Agent - I'd say they were having to handle 2 or 3 other bookings at the same time. If they were only handling me - then it is the most inefficient agent I've ever had!

This way of doing things might gets folks 'answered' faster but makes the process very much longer. So, what is the real customer experience like?

Correct me if you think I'm wrong.

[Level bust]

Luck of the draw, I phoned them on Monday at about 1000 and got through in 10 minutes. Better than BA, you can't get hold of them at all, but that's another story!

[PAXboy]

Both their phone and Chat systems announce they are prioritising those who are travelling within the next two weeks. Clearly done to dissuade you phoning.

[AvGeek1]

What's next for Virgin at Heathrow? With services resuming to Hong Kong, Shanghai and Cape Town and with the addition of Tampa, what other routes would be viable for them to operate here? Heathrow seems to be their focus after they up and left Gatwick during the pandemic.

Would also be good to see them grow their presence at Manchester to operate some more American routes and maybe even a Far East route or two.

[vectisman]

Further route development at Heathrow will be limited by the size of their slot portfolio. That is why over the longer term I can see a return to Gatwick for some leisure heavy services if they
wish to increase the variety of more business focused routes at LHR. In my opinion they would be unwise to leave it too long with BA and Norse particularly expanding their long-haul presence at LGW after the pandemic.

[AvGeek1]

Further route development at Heathrow will be limited by the size of their slot portfolio. That is why over the longer term I can see a return to Gatwick for some leisure heavy services if they
wish to increase the variety of more business focused routes at LHR. In my opinion they would be unwise to leave it too long with BA and Norse particularly expanding their long-haul presence at LGW after the pandemic.

I'm glad to see Virgin sticking with the Orlando route from Heathrow, as I think it was a route which was needed from here and glad to see BA have returned to serve Orlando from Gatwick rather than Heathrow to give them some breathing space, so it can be served from both airports. Unsure on how some other leisure focused routes are doing from Heathrow and whether they will be kept here or not. I'm unsure as to where Virgin can expand to out of Heathrow next if they had the slots needed.

[vectisman]

I'm glad to see Virgin sticking with the Orlando route from Heathrow, as I think it was a route which was needed from here and glad to see BA have returned to serve Orlando from Gatwick rather than Heathrow to give them some breathing space, so it can be served from both airports. Unsure on how some other leisure focused routes are doing from Heathrow and whether they will be kept here or not. I'm unsure as to where Virgin can expand to out of Heathrow next if they had the slots needed.

Yes but Virgin used to be up to 3 daily to Orlando from Gatwick during the summer peak and at least daily or more throughout the year. With just one daily from Heathrow they have surrendered market share to BA. BA have up to 11 weekly this winter with at least 13 weekly next summer from Gatwick. Virgin don’t have the slots at LHR for that frequency without reducing something else. Plus the increased operating costs. I don’t think BA took Orlando back to LGW to help Virgin out,but rather it was a commercial decision based on higher profitability on that route from LGW. Likewise for Bridgetown. BA use slots at Gatwick to increase frequency in the busy winter months as well as the daily from LHR. Virgin is not doing this at the moment.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Virgin are currently twice daily on LHR-MCO, A330 and A350 mix on VS091 and VS135.

[vectisman]

Virgin are currently twice daily on LHR-MCO, A330 and A350 mix on VS091 and VS135.
Apologies for this oversight. However, my view that the expansion of the Virgin LHR network in the future is limited unless more slots are acquired is still correct.
It is daily from December.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Apologies for this oversight. However, my view that the expansion of the Virgin LHR network in the future is limited unless more slots are acquired is still correct. It is daily from December.
Virgin are a mature long haul carrier with a strong US partner, expansion has been slot limited since they got LHR access 31 years ago. I suspect Tampa is made possible only with Delta feeding the US end and being sold to LHR rather than LGW. I'm not convinced HKG and PVG will be back for the "long haul", they might be, but I suspect that just like BA, they'll focus on where they do best, and that's working closely with a US partner across the North Atlantic. Orlando is currently scheduled for 2 x daily for Summer 2023 out of LHR.

[AvGeek1]

Virgin are a mature long haul carrier with a strong US partner, expansion has been slot limited since they got LHR access 31 years ago. I suspect Tampa is made possible only with Delta feeding the US end and being sold to LHR rather than LGW. I'm not convinced HKG and PVG will be back for the "long haul", they might be, but I suspect that just like BA, they'll focus on where they do best, and that's working closely with a US partner across the North Atlantic. Orlando is currently scheduled for 2 x daily for Summer 2023 out of LHR.

Apologies for this oversight. However, my view that the expansion of the Virgin LHR network in the future is limited unless more slots are acquired is still correct.
It is daily from December.

I was looking at the current Virgin network from Heathrow and seeing, if slots allowed, where Virgin could serve next that would be viable. Is there anywhere else in the US they could serve using their DL ties? Or anywhere else in the Far East? Don't Virgin have a lengthy history at both HKG and PVG?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's not about "could be viable" it's all about where your expensive airliner drives the biggest bang for your buck. Remember they also served DXB, NRT and SYD as part of the ambition to compete with BA worldwide but having a strong US partner may well mean an additional LHR-DTW/MSP/ATL rotation may well be more profitable. They're not niche exactly, just more properly focussed than before.

[Travel Agent]

Would love to see them return to Las Vegas from Manchester... surely someone could give it a go when you consider TCX & VS used to go head to head on the route

[VickersVicount]

Would love to see them return to Las Vegas from Manchester... surely someone could give it a go when you consider TCX & VS used to go head to head on the route
but with yields in the basement?

[tictack67]

but with yields in the basement?

Any evidence that they were?

[Mark J Bowcock]

but with yields in the basement?

How do you know that? Weren't they upping the frequency before covid struck!

[GrahamK]

Wasn't VS MAN-LAS cut before Covid struck?

[AvGeek1]

I believe Manchester-Las Vegas was last served in April/May 2020 by VS.

I could see a return to Las Vegas, but I think Los Angeles would also be a really good route for them from Manchester. Capture some of that traffic currently connecting with BA at Heathrow and through other European hubs.

I think if they are stumped for growth at Heathrow and aren’t returning to Gatwick, Manchester should see some decent route growth and development.

[roverman]

I believe Manchester-Las Vegas was last served in April/May 2020 by VS.

I could see a return to Las Vegas, but I think Los Angeles would also be a really good route for them from Manchester. Capture some of that traffic currently connecting with BA at Heathrow and through other European hubs.

I think if they are stumped for growth at Heathrow and aren’t returning to Gatwick, Manchester should see some decent route growth and development.

I do hope we see some growth by VS to the USA and elsewhere. Prior to the pandemic they were operating seasonally to LAX and had announced service to Delhi. They were well-advanced with a plan to create a hub at MAN involving feed by FlyBe, but we all know what happened there. MAN is currently without domestic service to EDI or GLA, which would be an important source of feed to long-haul, however northern England and the midlands is a pretty large catchment in itself.

[Mr A Tis]

I do hope we see some growth by VS to the USA and elsewhere. Prior to the pandemic they were operating seasonally to LAX and had announced service to Delhi. They were well-advanced with a plan to create a hub at MAN involving feed by FlyBe, but we all know what happened there. MAN is currently without domestic service to EDI or GLA, which would be an important source of feed to long-haul, however northern England and the midlands is a pretty large catchment in itself.


I'm not sure that argument of hubbing via MAN holds water. Edinburgh has flights with Delta, United, American, Air Canada & I think Westjet. Why would anyone want to connect with the sprawling disjointed airport of Manchester.? Any Virgin flights from MAN would have to be able to stand alone without any significant reliance on connections. The two main long haul destinations unserved from MAN remain Bangkok & Delhi, with the recession looming, I don't see any carrier having the appetite for major expansion (with Ryanair being the notable possible exception)

[roverman]

I'm not sure that argument of hubbing via MAN holds water. Edinburgh has flights with Delta, United, American, Air Canada & I think Westjet. Why would anyone want to connect with the sprawling disjointed airport of Manchester.? Any Virgin flights from MAN would have to be able to stand alone without any significant reliance on connections. The two main long haul destinations unserved from MAN remain Bangkok & Delhi, with the recession looming, I don't see any carrier having the appetite for major expansion (with Ryanair being the notable possible exception)

The thing is that it was already happening in 2019 prior to the pandemic and my retirement from MAG when I was working on MAN-TP and the hub proposal. There were in that year substantial volumes connecting between Jet Airways Mumbai service and VS flights to JFK, LAX and ATL. Volumes were growing too across FlyBe on to both VS and TCX, plus surprisingly quite a lot from EI to VS, especially when seasonal peaks differed between Eire and the UK, and with Florida being poorly served from DUB. It was acknowledged that there's a good deal of work to do make MAN a better transfer experience and to get reliable minimum connecting times. That work was well progressed when Covid hit. Having now retired I am unable to say whether the transfer hub project is still extant.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Jet Airways also had substanial volumes on their own scissors hub at BRU but again, lost money, and they've since gone bust. Classic example of connections being done at a loss would be the once great British Midland who became the ***** of every STAR ALLIANCE codeshare carrier possible and still couldn't make real money.

MAN is not a natural hub, it lacks an anchor network carrier, (not a criticism of MAG). So any Pakistan/Indian traffic VS could feed onto it's US services would be arguably cannibalising their own LHR base. I think there's scope for a point to point holiday network to LAS/BOS/LAX or SFO in summer but not sure that'd scale up to year round, could be done with one based aircraft, 2 x LAS, 2 x BOS, 2 x LAX/SFO?

[A350Saltire]

Just announced that VS are joining SkyTeam in 2023

[vectisman]

Virgin also said today no return to Gatwick 2023 to 2025 but new routes from Heathrow in 2023. I wonder where the slots will be coming from. They recently said they couldn’t expand at Manchester owing to lack of pilots but can at Heathrow! Also in 2021 they said they may need to use Gatwick slots, as they will have too many aircraft for just their Heathrow slots! What does one believe?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Virgin also said today no return to Gatwick 2023 to 2025 but new routes from Heathrow in 2023. I wonder where the slots will be coming from. They recently said they couldn’t expand at Manchester owing to lack of pilots but can at Heathrow! Also in 2021 they said they may need to use Gatwick slots, as they will have too many aircraft for just their Heathrow slots! What does one believe?
Remember that DL/VS are in a JV so they can mix and match slots. I suspect they may not be in any rush to go back to PVG or HKG and may refocus on feeding the North Atlantic.
With 14 A339s coming and 3 A359s, how many of the A333 are staying?

[A350Saltire]

Remember that DL/VS are in a JV so they can mix and match slots. I suspect they may not be in any rush to go back to PVG or HKG and may refocus on feeding the North Atlantic.
With 14 A339s coming and 3 A359s, how many of the A333 are staying?

I think Weiss said that once all of the A339s have been delivered the fleet will be 10% larger.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Being reported today that Virgin are dropping Hong Kong, will Shanghai be next?

[BA318]

Being reported today that Virgin are dropping Hong Kong, will Shangai be next?

Bloomberg specifically mentioned Shanghai is staying. Apparently it’s profitable (although it’s only once a week at the moment isn’t it?) and with the Skyteam membership it will link with China Eastern’s hub.

[VickersVicount]

‘DELTA (operated by Virgin Atlantic). This is is where this is going…
Long live the red tail!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Bloomberg specifically mentioned Shanghai is staying. Apparently it’s profitable (although it’s only once a week at the moment isn’t it?) and with the Skyteam membership it will link with China Eastern’s hub.
Virgin operated Shanghai ended cargo ops in March, and China Eastern also fly LHR-PVG. So for Virgin, it may HAVE BEEN profitable pre COVID and with cargo only, but I don't see how it becomes profitable in the medium term with China still chasing zero COVID. Is there room for MU and VS and BA? Makes more sense for MU to be the Skyteam option IMHO.

[inOban]

For political reasons much of HKs financial sector has left, mostly to Singapore. I think traffic to HK is in longterm decline.

[22/04]

VS tend to leave routes when they can't make them work, but if it like Mumbai they will leave some kit there and come back if. They have left Mumbai twice and come back when the market is right.

HKG has changed dramatically and there probably isn't room for CX, BA and VS.

[Wycombe]

Virgin's first A339 (G-VJAZ) is on its first revenue flight this evening, LHR-BOS.

Bearing in mind the Neo's greater range than the A333's they are replacing, was wondering whether they will be deployed on some longer routes (which the A333's dont see) such as LAX, SFO, SEA, JNB etc?

[Fairdealfrank]

Does VS have fifth freedom on West Indies sectors e.g. BGI-GND, BGI-SVD, BGI-TAB, etc.?

[Sotonsean]

www.simpleflying.com/virgin-atlantic-maldives-turks-caicos-flights-2023/

Virgin Atlantic are to start flights between LHR, London Heathrow and MLE, Male, Maldives and PLS, Providenciales, Turks and Caicos.

London Heathrow to MLE Male, Maldives commences 22 October 2023 three weekly seasonal Boeing 787-9.
London Heathrow to PLS Providenciales, Turks and Caicos commences November 15 2023 twice weekly year round Boeing 787-9.

When Virgin Atlantic recently announced that they were planning on obtaining new slots and announce new destinations from London Heathrow I wasn't expecting these two. I wonder if Virgin Atlantic will shortly announce the much speculated route from LHR, London Heathrow to ICN, Seoul Incheon, Korea.

[planedrive]

www.simpleflying.com/virgin-atlantic-maldives-turks-caicos-flights-2023/

Virgin Atlantic are to start flights between LHR, London Heathrow and MLE, Male, Maldives and PLS, Providenciales, Turks and Caicos.

London Heathrow to MLE Male, Maldives commences 22 October 2023 three weekly seasonal Boeing 787-9.
London Heathrow to PLS Providenciales, Turks and Caicos commences November 15 2023 twice weekly year round Boeing 787-9.

When Virgin Atlantic recently announced that they were planning on obtaining new slots and announce new destinations from London Heathrow I wasn't expecting these two. I wonder if Virgin Atlantic will shortly announce the much speculated route from LHR, London Heathrow to ICN, Seoul Incheon, Korea.

They've just received 3 new daily slot pairs at LHR for next summer (2 from KLM and one allocated) so I'm sure there will be an announcement for new summer routes soon. ICN and SLC have been strongly mooted.

[BA318]

They've just received 3 new daily slot pairs at LHR for next summer (2 from KLM and one allocated) so I'm sure there will be an announcement for new summer routes soon. ICN and SLC have been strongly mooted.

Given the CMA’s recent comments about the Korean Air/Asiana merger I wonder if Virgin will hold off launching ICN in the hope of getting remedy slots for free?

[nguba]

Virgin Atlantic will suspend all flights to Pakistan later this year:

https://corporate.virginatlantic.com/gb/en/media/press-releases/virgin-atlantic-suspends-services-to-pakistan.html

A Virgin Atlantic spokesperson said: “As we continue to ramp up our flying programme in 2023, we’ve taken the opportunity to review our entire network and decided to make a few changes."

“Following this review, it is with regret that we’ve taken the difficult decision to suspend our services between London Heathrow and Pakistan. Since commencing operations in December 2020, we have been proud to offer choice for customers travelling between London and Manchester in the UK, and Islamabad and Lahore in Pakistan. During that time, we have also provided important cargo capacity, as well as delivering vital medical supplies."

“This is not a decision we have taken lightly, and we’d like to apologise for any inconvenience caused. We would like to wholeheartedly thank everyone in Pakistan; our customers, teams, partners and the authorities for their support over the past two years.”

Virgin Atlantic will continue to operate services between London and Lahore until 1st May and between London and Islamabad until 9th July.

It's plausible that the route suspensions will allow Virgin to launch a new route, possibly to a SkyTeam hub.

[chinapattern]

It’s no surprise really, they only started Pakistan because COVID meant they couldn’t fly anywhere else. Now the world has opened up again there are far more lucrative places to fly to. It’s perhaps more surprising they’ve lasted as long as they have.

[Psych_]

I guess changing are slowly happening.

[NWSRG]

Folks, a question for those who know...does Virgin's IFE (A330 to Orlando) allow you to plug in a USB bluetooth dongle for a headset? I have a good headset for work, but needs to be driven off bluetooth. I suspect the USB ports are just power ports, rather than outputs for the IFE, but can't confirm from the website. Thanks!

[Cazza_fly]

Folks, a question for those who know...does Virgin's IFE (A330 to Orlando) allow you to plug in a USB bluetooth dongle for a headset? I have a good headset for work, but needs to be driven off bluetooth. I suspect the USB ports are just power ports, rather than outputs for the IFE, but can't confirm from the website. Thanks!

The IFE on the A330neos and newer A350s definitely allows bluetooth headsets to be connected directly to the system. I dont believe all the A330ceos have this system though.

[NWSRG]

Thanks Cazza!

[Sotonsean]

Looks like a Seoul link could be one step closer after the recent announcement that the UK authorities have finally agreed to the Korean Air/Asiana merger. This announcement now leaves the EU and USA to come to their own conclusion before the merger finally gets the final go-ahead.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Yes but only after the end of the Ukraine/Russian war.

[VickersVicount]

with Bangalore next on the cards, I was interested to think of some of the routes VS have done and then dropped?

[laviation]

In terms of India, they planned to launch BOM and DEL from MAN in 2020

[PAXboy]

If a route does not fit with Delta's plans? They the chances of it starting must be minimal.

The LHR-JNB route is a cash cow. Most nights, BA has a 777 + 380 and, some nights, double 380. VS? Just a 789 and CPT only in the southern summer.

[rog747]

The LHR-JNB route is a cash cow. Most nights, BA has a 777 + 380 and, some nights, double 380. VS? Just a 789 and CPT only in the southern summer.

I never ever understood as to why the LHR-JNB was never a double daily from almost the outset of starting on the route.
BA and SAA both had double 747's at that time.
I also never knew why a 747-400 was not a permanent feature on it too -
The A340-300 was far from ideal with the HGW's out of JNB (and also from CPT) which meant lucrative Cargo was left off, or could not even be booked.

I vaguely recall JNB did go double daily then Covid killed it off >??

I know why CPT was stop-start over the years - This was largely in part due to the corruption of 'local' ticket selling agents and Virgin unable to get their money in.

[Sotonsean]

with Bangalore next on the cards, I was interested to think of some of the routes VS have done and then dropped?

Virgin Atlantic have dropped the following destinations from their network over the course of their history.

Aberdeen (Virgin Red)
Accra
Athens
Austin (ends 07 January 2024)
Belfast International
Cancun
Chicago
Detroit
Dubai (resumes 28 October 2023)
Dublin
Glasgow
Havana
Hong Kong
Islamabad (ends 11 July 2023)
Kingston
Lahore
London Gatwick
Luton
Maastricht
Mauritius
Moscow (fuel stop)
Nairobi
Newark
Port Harcourt (Virgin Nigeria)
Sydney
Tobago
Tokyo Narita
Toronto
Vancouver
Varadero

VS have often dropped routes and then restarted them. I wonder if one or two of the dropped destinations that I have listed above will ever return to the airlines route network.

Of note, I have re-edited the list to include the missing destinations of Chicago, Havana and Varadero.

[chinapattern]

You can add Havana to the list aswell.

[laviation]

I wonder if Virgin would ever consider bringing Little Red back. Then again, that would truly be the nail in the coffin for the MAN "hub" !!

[cavokblues]

I doubt it. They were well and truly burnt with Little Red, it hardly generated any connecting pax and had LF below 40%.

It must have haemorrhaged a lot of money for them.

[laviation]

Had Flybe survived, that would've been their feeder.. Imho they are well settled in with booking customers onto BA Shuttle flights rather than operating it themselves.

[Rutan16]

Had Flybe survived, that would've been their feeder.. Imho they are well settled in with booking customers onto BA Shuttle flights rather than operating it themselves.

Virgin/Delta combined with AFKL offer a multitude of connections via Schiphol and Roissy every day (and truly globally) and you might be surprised to learn inbound and on our flight to Orlando as well !

I can assure you putting their clients onto BA shuttles is NOT optimal and certainly not in the greater interests of the company.

BTW Little Red services to Manchester weren’t a part of the BMi remedial packages; more rather were slot sitting a few own and Delta slots at the time.

It was never a commercially viable proposition utilising Aer Lingus either, especially when it became clear the slots weren’t going to be allowed to be transferred to anything other than alternative EU/UK destinations and as designated in the agreement even beyond the six season use restriction period.

Effectively they became useless so Virgin Red gave up cut their mounting loses and handed them back early. (only Aer Lingus an IAG Group company made any money out of that venture and ultimately straight back into the same pot as if BA had retained them:bored:)

Evidence these remedial slots really aren’t worth the hassle with all the risk caveats and restrictions can clearly be sighted at the FAILURE of Flybe not once but twice, and in both cases the liquidator’s inability to gain any value out of them other than to hand them straight back to BA .

BA are under no obligation to provide workable and reliable slot pairs to a competitor. It’s pretty much a stitch up .

Loganair may have an advantage using the slots to the highlands and Dundee because they retain a long standing working relationship and interline agreement with BA that others haven’t had.

There is however a question; are Loganair really introducing the completion that these remedial slots releases were supposed to deliver - I am not sure to be honest.

[nguba]

One slight correction to the list of former routes above, Virgin never flew to Moscow. They did bid for the route authority but lost to bmi, and then easyJet (much to the annoyance of SRB).

[Rutan16]

One slight correction to the list of former routes above, Virgin never flew to Moscow. They did bid for the route authority but lost to bmi, and then easyJet (much to the annoyance of SRB).

Do I not recall they stopped in Moscow on route to Tokyo many many years ago prior to the formal opening of the Trans Siberian corridor?

[rog747]

You can add Havana to the list as well.

NAS too - short-lived at the time but has just restarted up.

VAR Varadero did not last long either

[rog747]

Do I not recall they stopped in Moscow on route to Tokyo many many years ago prior to the formal opening of the Trans Siberian corridor?

Yes the first NRT flights in 1989 from LGW VS901 was on a Classic 747 G-VIRG or VGIN and had to stop at SVO for fuel - No traffic rights on that sector.
2 more 747's were soon added obtained from SQ 747-212B's with PW -7Q engines that could do the flight non-stop so the SVO stop could be dropped. G-TKYO and G-VRGN

[galgurl]

they also stopped/re started Chicago a few times

also Man-UVF

Was crew with VS 2004-2016 so I operated a lot of these routes, I think the plan was to return to Tokyo, but not Narita the other one.

[Sotonsean]

You can add Havana to the list aswell.

I had completely overlooked Chicago, Havana and Varadero.

I am going to edit the list to include those three destinations.

Moscow as already stated by others was a fuel stop during the early day's of LGW-Tokyo-Narita.

[Sotonsean]

they also stopped/re started Chicago a few times

also Man-UVF

Was crew with VS 2004-2016 so I operated a lot of these routes, I think the plan was to return to Tokyo, but not Narita the other one.

I was listing former destinations of which VS used to serve. I was not necessarily listing the actual routes. The airline currently serves UVF, albeit not from Manchester.

VS had indeed announced that a return to Tokyo would be to Haneda rather than Narita once their B787-9s entered service. But obviously this never materialised.

[toledoashley]

Although it was never flown, does São Paulo count as well?

[Sotonsean]

Although it was never flown, does São Paulo count as well?

I was going to add that information at the bottom of the list but the route never materialised due to circumstances beyond the airlines control. With no VS Sao Paulo route ever starting in the first place I didn't count it as a former destination.

VS haven't mentioned anything regarding Sao Paulo since 2020 when the route was supposed to commence, but obviously it didn't due to the pandemic.

With the Brazilian airline AZUL expanding their European network may we see VS take another look at serving Sao Paulo. VS did have a tie up with the Brazilian airline GOL when they announced SaoPaulo. The airline has a large network which would have served VS well in the South American market.

[BA318]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/virgin-atlantic-sees-profitability-returning-2024-later-than-expected-2023-05-10/

"Virgin's 2022 results, published on Wednesday, showed the transatlantic-focused airline's recovery from COVID-19, which it only narrowly survived. Revenues recovered to 98% of 2019 levels and it reported a pretax loss before exceptional items of 206 million pounds ($259.99 million)."

Expect profitability in 2024.

[Beatts]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/virgin-orbit-enters-stalking-horse-bid-sell-aircraft-assets-17-mln-2023-05-17/?rpc=401&

[VickersVicount]

‘Cosmic Girl’ is only going to one place… the wreckers yard.

[laviation]

Virgin announcing at least one new route today.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Is that a New Route, or the reintroduction of one?

Either way it'll be a positive move.

[laviation]

Is that a New Route, or the reintroduction of one?

Either way it'll be a positive move.

MAN-LAS, last served up until Covid.

Not too sure on this but it could possibly more than just one, I’m told they “are announcing other things” too..

[galgurl]

LHR-DXB is BACK! 4 times a week 787

also MAN-LAS

[AirbusVR]

Back to Dubai too

[davidjohnson6]

Why is flying to Dubai going to be better for VS' bank balance this time compared to a few years ago when it was dropped ?
Not saying that VS won't make huge quantities of money on a LHR-DXB route - just that there needs to be a good reason for resuming a route that was previously dropped well before Covid

[AirbusVR]

Also inter island Caribbean flying.

so basically selling tickets to fly between the islands

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Is that a New Route, or the reintroduction of one?
Either way it'll be a positive move.
Great news but an expected resumption, it's no more a new route than LHR-PVG. They do love their PR though.

[camperdown9]

Why is flying to Dubai going to be better for VS' bank balance this time compared to a few years ago when it was dropped ?
Not saying that VS won't make huge quantities of money on a LHR-DXB route - just that there needs to be a good reason for resuming a route that was previously dropped well before Covid

Im guessing that as it's just four flights a week and seasonal that a lot of the seats will be sold as part of a package via Virgin Holidays.

[AirbusVR]

São Paulo and Bengaluru announced today as new routes!

[CabinCrewe]

São Paulo and Bengaluru announced today as new routes!
Ooft everyone soon going for a bit of BLR…

[AvGeek1]

Does this mean that Virgin launching Heathrow to Seoul is off the cards for 23/24? I thought that due to the Korean/Asiana merger, they had to be another carrier on the route and due to Virgin joining SkyTeam, this was to be Virgin?

[laviation]

Will Virgin finally press ahead with plans and open the Manchester Clubhouse for Summer 2024? This could also act as a de-facto Skyteam lounge.

[VickersVicount]

seems the sudden bandwagon panacea that was AUS is perhaps not as rosy as was expected. Summer increase scrapped, winter overall reduced.

[laviation]

seems the sudden bandwagon panacea that was AUS is perhaps not as rosy as was expected. Summer increase scrapped, winter overall reduced.

Always was going to be tricky with BA on the route and AUS being an AA focus city.

[nguba]

On the MAN Clubhouse, I'd be surprised if VS commit to the capital spend required.

As for AUS, BA is obviously well established on this route and has the benefit of AA's presence to generate outbound traffic. I think as far as inbound traffic to the US is concerned the weakness of the pound against the dollar and inflation makes the US is a far less attractive destination for UK travellers.

[Vokes55]

The fact that every US city is now a drug ridden homeless camp doesn’t help either

[VickersVicount]

The fact that every US city is now a drug ridden homeless camp doesn’t help either
Seems a little harsh. I have been to some lovely US cities…

[RA85684]

Once upon a time I do believe that the USA was worth visiting, but in recent years it has become, quite simply, a toilet.

[Jet Set Willie]

Seems a little harsh. I have been to some lovely US cities…

Have to agree though. Since Covid, some amazing cities have just become tent cities which just smell of weed the whole time. Really sad to see but with not feeling at all safe in some once fantastic cities, we have taken the decision to family holiday closer to home for the foreseeable :(

[Level bust]

There is more to The US than cities!

[PilotRichard]

Hi All,

I find myself in a bit of a crux at the minute, however by no means do I intend to come across as ungrateful or believing I have it worse than others.

I find myself unsure of what airline/ career job I want to take. For context, I’m a young(ish) FO who was made redundant twice from a certain poorly managed UK regional airline. I’ve got a start date at the end of summer with VAA SO, and currently have interviews lined up with TUI/DHL. I’m not sure if I’m just paranoid of losing my job again but I’m struggling to decide what the most logical, secure (term used lightly given the sh1thousery of the industry) and fulfilling job is out of the opportunities at present. I’m fully aware I’m lucky to even have a job lined up, that I’m not ungrateful for.

I find myself still unsure of VAA, given I never intended to go LH so early, would prefer a SH role and be home, but at the end of the day all I want is the most secure role. I’m not asking any thing directly but any honest insight/advice/feedback would be massively appreciated.

[AirbusVR]

I’d go to DHL to be honest.

[L1011effoh]

You are probably best to ask this in Terms and Endearment forum. With all due respect to the people that post in this particular forum, a lot are armchair CEOs and enthusiasts - a lot of pilots don’t make it down this far. Having previously lost my captain’s job, I feel for you and recognise your desire for stability. I haven’t flown for DHL nor VS, but freight didn’t suffer during Covid and has continued to boom, so I would go for DHL.
Hi All,

I find myself in a bit of a crux at the minute, however by no means do I intend to come across as ungrateful or believing I have it worse than others.

I find myself unsure of what airline/ career job I want to take. For context, I’m a young(ish) FO who was made redundant twice from a certain poorly managed UK regional airline. I’ve got a start date at the end of summer with VAA SO, and currently have interviews lined up with TUI/DHL. I’m not sure if I’m just paranoid of losing my job again but I’m struggling to decide what the most logical, secure (term used lightly given the sh1thousery of the industry) and fulfilling job is out of the opportunities at present. I’m fully aware I’m lucky to even have a job lined up, that I’m not ungrateful for.

I find myself still unsure of VAA, given I never intended to go LH so early, would prefer a SH role and be home, but at the end of the day all I want is the most secure role. I’m not asking any thing directly but any honest insight/advice/feedback would be massively appreciated.

[Sotonsean]

Virgin Atlantic are to cease London Heathrow to Austin. Final flight from London Heathrow will be the 07 January 2024.

Virgin Atlantic started LHR-AUS in May 2022.

Virgin Atlantic will increase LHR-BGI between 10 January 2024 and 29 March 2024 from 11 to 14 weekly flight's.

Virgin Atlantic will increase LHR-MIA from 11 to 14 weekly flight's for the 2024 summer season.

Virgin Atlantic for the winter 2024/2025 season will increase LHR-DBX from four weekly flight's to daily.

[PAXboy]

Thanks Sotonsean. We see that Delta still hold all the cards and the highly lucrative South African market still left to VS' old friends ...

[VickersVicount]

The Austin market was never going to support the sudden gold rush long term. Wont be the last AUS casualty (or VS one…)

[Asturias56]

Pity - it's a nice spot - best city n Texas fo' sure

[nguba]

Perhaps unsurprising given the tech slowdown and BA suspending LHR-SJC. From IAG's results, transatlantic traffic is being driven by outbound US leisure traffic, rather than UK point of sale.

I wonder where this leaves Virgin's network? It seems to switch between focusing on the US and broadening the network. Both CPT & DXB were reinstated having been suspended.

In the US, VS can't compete against the frequencies of rival alliances on LHR-EWR & ORD. I wonder how TPA is performing?

[PAXboy]

They restarted CPT but ONLY in the southern winter and only a single rotation to JNB year round. Meanwhile, BA run 777 to CPT every night of the year, sometimes two. JNB gets a 380 every night and sometimes an additional 777 or, at peak, a second 380!

This is easy pickings but Delta are not interested. Very strange.

[davidjohnson6]

News about a codeshare between VS and Vietnam Airlines on routes between Delhi/Mumbai and Hanoi/Ho Chi Minh City
https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/231029-vsvncodeshare
I'm struggling to understand what sort of passengers would likely want a VS ticket on these routes or why VS and VN think this will do well. This codeshare seems to be Skyteam boxticking for the sake of boxticking. If I wanted to fly between London and Vietnam, changing aircraft in India at a nonhub city doesn't seem an obvious choice - with relatively low frequencies from both VS and VN on the respective sectors, there seems to be too much risk and downside to a passenger if things go wrong, along with little opportunity to fix issues due to Indian visa requirements

[VLCfkight]

And a third BA several times a week from LGW during northern winter... 3 BA aircraft to CPT tonight

[PAXboy]

Yes VLCfkight As JNB/CPT are my most regular long haul [first trip Dec 1965 on a VC10!] I have followed this market for a long time and used many carriers, not to mention F&F. I am meeting a friend at LHR this weekend, who has used a cheaper route from CPT via ZRH.

VS had already established a good record in ZA from 1996 (I think. My first trip with them to JNB was '97). I accept they had to retrench at one stage but now? I cannot understand how Delta ignore this market as Delta already serve JNB and CPT to ATL (friends have used), so they already have infrastructure in place to handle more rotations. If I was a Delta shareholder I would be asking questions as this destination is wide open.

The real puzzle is that they let their old enemy have free rein. When VS introduced the A350, it was it was stated that this would take over the JNB run from the 789, thus far, it is mostly the smaller machine. Amusingly :hmm: Delta are running the A350 on both these routes! I'm sure that mgmt know what they are doing ...

[VLCfkight]

VS en route to CPT tonight.... first flight of the Noerthern Winter schedules.

[BadgerGrowler]

Virgin has delayed it's LHR - GRU route until the Summer of 2025.

[Sotonsean]

Virgin has delayed it's LHR - GRU route until the Summer of 2025.

LHR-GRU was supposed to commence at the start of the IATA summer 2024 season which is the 31 March 2024.

LHR-GRU was originally announced in 2019 with a start date for March 2020. This was more or less at the outset of the covid pandemic but obviously it never materialised.

VS have now once again delayed commencing LHR-GRU until the summer of 2025.

It does make me wonder if LHR-GRU will ever happen.

[nguba]

Profitability remains elusive for Virgin Atlantic with another annual loss. Net debt seems very high at £3 billion.

https://corporate.virginatlantic.com/gb/en/media/press-releases/virgin-atlantic-2023-financial-results.html

Virgin Atlantic Ltd (Virgin Atlantic) has released its annual financial results for the year ending 31st December 2023. Results reflect progress made in a year of sustained customer demand, as the airline capitalised on continued desire for premium leisure air travel and holidays. Virgin Atlantic reported record total revenue of £3.1 billion, up £265 million versus 2022.Continued cost discipline, combined with enhanced fleet utilisation, contributed towards record Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization (EBITDA) of £352 million. Earnings Before Interest and Taxes (EBIT) of £80 million surpassed 2019 results, achieving a key milestone on the path to sustainable profitability. Losses before tax and exceptional items narrowed to (£139) million from (£206) million in the previous year and Virgin Atlantic is on course to return to profitability in 2024. Virgin Atlantic ended the year with a robust cash position of £406 million, up from £399 million in 2022.​​​​​​​

https://corporate.virginatlantic.com/content/dam/Virgin_Atlantic_Annual_Report_2023.pdf

[Maxfli]

Rumours of a big pay deal for Virgin Atlantic pilots (29%).
Well done BALPA :D

[Asturias56]

"Profitability remains elusive for Virgin Atlantic with another annual loss"

Virgin are masters at Byzantine corporate structures - even the Economist couldn't figure out how the losses and gains flowed through it. Partly it was helped by the constituent companies having a wide variety of year end dates........................

[AirbusVR]

Rumours of a big pay deal for Virgin Atlantic pilots (29%).
Well done BALPA :D

Not entirely true by a loooong shot

[PAXboy]

What do VS call the most senior cabin manager? They have changed the title over the years and I cannot recall. Thanks.

[VickersVicount]

What do VS call the most senior cabin manager? They have changed the title over the years and I cannot recall. Thanks.
Currently: ‘FSM Flight Service Manager’

[rog747]

Used to be the IFS > inflight supervisor yonks ago.