Round 2 layoffs in February or March

[Coronavirus]

Rumor has it....

[SloppyJoe]

What a pointless thread! Why justify it with a response? The OP seems to just post about encouraging people to leave the AOA, how dire it is, how many will lose their jobs. What a waste of space.

[Bangaluru]

And yet, you responded.

[SloppyJoe]

To a reply that has since been deleted

[doolay]

Never happen, we're 'right sized'. :}

[doolay]

What a pointless thread! Why justify it with a response? The OP seems to just post about encouraging people to leave the AOA, how dire it is, how many will lose their jobs. What a waste of space.

He's posted a rumour on a rumour network.

[Dragon Pacific]

Everything is fine. They will continue to pay pilots who haven’t flown for a year.

[Oasis]

When do vaccinations start in Hong Kong?

[LLLQNH]

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if they retrenched a lot of us.

Sounds like they got immigration and the government to do their dirty work for them! Any real updates on that, the rumours aren't pleasant.

[Coronavirus]

What a pointless thread! Why justify it with a response? The OP seems to just post about encouraging people to leave the AOA, how dire it is, how many will lose their jobs. What a waste of space.

You must be a blast to fly with. One of those "Do as I say, not as I do" geezers.
You've posted the most characters (195) so far. Thank you for your time.

[Oasis]

It only makes sense.. sack loads of people and then scramble to fill the flight sack again once the world opens up again after the vaccines take effect at the end of 2021.
They missed the boat with this one.

the only positive would be that all airlines have to hire again, creating a ‘market forces’ advantage for pilots to get some of the salary concessions back.

[MENELAUS]

Hold on to that thought.

[bobrun]

Layoffs before the end of 2021 would only make obvious the fact that forcing COS18 was just a scheme to fire people without their redundancy clause. They "leaders" themselves have stated that a recovery wasn't expected till much later, so their crewing plan had to account for that to be believable.

[veryoldchinahand]

.................a company that is poorly managed.
How actually are you qualified to judge....Oli777 - public company management experience, formal qualifications is it ? Or just another flight deck expert business strategist ?

Cathay shares are up about 20% on 12 month low btw. IAG down over 70% on their year high. Agreed not exactly a rosy picture but fairly typical of the industry at this time and a reflection on the current circumstances rather than airline companies being poorly managed. Its all too easy to put the boot in to a soft target but to what real point.

[B7777]

bobrun

The words the company used were that they are now right sized based on getting back to 50% capacity by mid 2021. I do not see that happening, so next stage will be them saying the covid recovery is taking longer than expected, so we now need to ........

[mngmt mole]

How pathetic. You don't need to be a financial graduate to recognise that CX has been woefully managed. Never mind the obvious like the industry leading loss in fuel hedging, how about we compare share prices. BA shares went from 100 to 420 from 2010 through 2019. CX shares are worth LESS now then they were 20 years ago. Care to suggest what the average share price of nearly every other company in the world has done over the past 10 years...? I recognise you are probably working in a cubicle somewhere in CX city trying to justify yourself to your boss, but don't embarrass yourself with utter tosh. CX categorically is one of the worlds worst managed airlines. Fact.

[veryoldchinahand]

mgmt mole :Pathetic you say, presumably that's because you have no cognizant arguments to justify your 'facts' other than the ever reliable 'fuel hedging ' chestnut, always useful prop for you to anchor any of your perpetual bitterness against a company that for many years offered you an excellent well paid carrier. Actually a rather large office with cocktail cabinet and Victoria harbor view with a rather handsome Tristar model on the desk to boot - BTW there have not been any BA shares for some years now.

[Dragon Pacific]

BTW voch it is career not carrier. The Tristar says it all.

[hyg]

veryoldchinahand

just because you sit in an office doesn't make u better than others..... CX managers live in the 70s and the 80s thinking that all pilots come from GA or air force and don't have other experiences or qualifications other than flying planes, the truth is many new generation pilots come from a highly educated background and prior career, some no less than those "management trainee"....

If you think you were so good and smart, will you really be at swire or CX?? pretty sure top/smart graduates from top universities wouldn't choose swire or CX as their dream company when they can be making a much bigger difference (and pay) at places like Mckinsey or ibanks

[Flex88]

SloppyJoe

Of course with lockdowns around the world increasing, UK just banned flights from South America and Covid 20, 21, 22 .......... popping up on every continent - layoffs will diminish right 😮

[bobrun]

B7777

Exactly my point old chap. But February or March is too early to tell anything. It's pretty obvious that we won't know how the recovery is progressing until we have data on it, which won't be until the second half of 2021. Anything sooner would make blatant their deception.

[rustyoldtin]

Maybe this is the reason the Feb roster is delayed so much?

[Rie]

Rusty, it's only the 20th. Every month has been delayed for a while

[B7777]

Rumour is that HK government are trying to impose a 12 day hotel quarantine on HK based flight crew, hence roster delay to end of the month

[rustyoldtin]

not just rumor

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/health-environment/article/3118657/hong-kong-fourth-wave-airline-sector-braces

[covid19]

If they impose a 12 days hotel quarantine for HKG based crew(effectively treating HKG Based as based crew), then they should relax the layover requirement for HKG based crew as well. Otherwise, what is the point. Even Australia allows OZ based crew to be quarantined at home.

[veryoldchinahand]

I understand that the 12 day proposal is not now going ahead. Source is reasonably reliable but not 100% solid.

[B7777]

Qantas now have to quarantine their crew in Darwin for their repatriation flights. Crew can volunteer for the repatriation flights and are given a 56 day roster, up to 28 days away from Aus, 14 days Quarantine in Darwin, then rest of the 56 days off at home base. I have seen the EOI emails they received.

[Curry Lamb]

Stay? Leave? They’re gonna have to start making up their minds!

New rules ‘won’t affect people’s right to leave HK’
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1575574-20210213.htm

What The Proposed Immigration Law For Hong Kong Is, And Why It's Worrying - NDTV

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/whats-the-proposed-immigration-law-of-hong-kong-and-why-is-it-worrying-2369690?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

[BalloonBuster]

Layoffs ??
Recruitment drive you mean...

Since last October i jumped up 50 spots on the seniority list. And that’s from around 1350 to 1300.
literaly everybody i know plans on leaving as soon as they can, and jobs will become available in the next 6 months, as there are some now.

The golden handcuffs that we used to wear have been kindly removed by the company with the introduction of cos18. All those jobs back home that we used to laugh about suddenly have become really attractive (low cost, regional, corporate)

Those jets in the OZ desert will stay there for a long time because there will be no one left to fly them.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Hope dies last.

[Piet Lood]

Nope, weed does and that’s why you’re still here.

[Curry Lamb]

PIET = 1
STW = 0

[badge42]

Balloon buster

I’ve been around a fair while. Actually, it’s fair to say, ‘too long’…….

During my time here I’ve flown with colleagues from almost all over the World, and every background; some ex-military, some not; some very highly experienced, some just starting their journey and finding it hard to wade through the Cathay molasses. Through it all though, I’ve seen no common thread. Some are good at it, some not so good, some are bloody awful, and background has very little to do with it. I’d almost say I’ve seen it all. Almost all, but with one glaring exception!! I can’t help wondering why It’s remained the case for so long, that I’d be more likely to fly with somebody from Timbuktu than somebody from Tianjin? Wouldn’t bother me.

I do see a recruitment drive coming. And about time too! After all, given the utopia that Cathay has at long last achieved, it’d be a terrible shame to see the company’s hard won reputation for fair play besmirched by a blatant prejudice against China’s finest Air Force Pilots and the most ablest son’s and daughters of Party Members, (or at least the very few of them that haven’t graduated from top flight business schools), just because they’re Chinese, wouldn’t it? Doesn’t make any sense that China’s finest low cost carrier should continue to discriminate against Chinese talent!! Wouldn’t you agree?

Indeed, I can foresee both a recruitment drive, and layoffs. 😉

[badge42]

I should add... the vast majority are very good!

[noboloco]

badge42

China can’t even get enough pilots to fly it’s own planes. What makes you think they have any to fly for cx?

[Sam Ting Wong]

The scarcity always only concerned Captains, to recruit cadets should be feasible. Badge is raising an interesting point, I always wondered why they don't recruit from the mainland. Surely there must be immigration limits? I could not think of any other reason. Language maybe, but in a couple of years in Adelaide this could be fixed..

[Flying Clog]

The latest rumour from a 3rd floor source is 900 x 777 pilots to be made redundant. 300 from each rank. Seniority not being used as a factor.

[FlyingNun]

And since when do Residents of the 3rd floor make such calls?
If you’re going to start a Rumour, then get your facts right, unless you don’t work for CX.

[doolay]

The 3rd Floor doesn't make the calls, but they would be privy to them.

A rumour is based on uncertain or doubtful truth, no facts required. And this is a Rumour forum.

[anxiao]

From my understanding of the Mainland pilots issue from way back, the company were told by the then CAAC in no uncertain terms that they were not to recruit from China. The mainland carriers were having enough trouble recruiting staff to develop their own airlines, at RMB35,000 a month, without the competition of HK.

The pilots I met in Beijing around the year 2000 spoke excellent English and had the same spectrum of ability and experience as any other country. They would have been an asset to CX.

[Jetdream]

So from ‘right sized’ to now another 900 pilots going. Not sure about that one. 777 doesn’t even have 300 SO’s and there would be very few Captains left.
I get this crew quarantine is a huge set back but not sure I can take those numbers seriously.

[Coronavirus]

Flying Clog

My source has told me that the 777 pilots who don't take the new long term unpaid leave scheme (announced shortly) will be made redundant.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Whilst expecting any old hands to bust a gut...I don’t think so

[Sam Ting Wong]

Cathay was never, isn't and will never be "desperate to fill their flight decks". Unfortunately.

[VforVENDETTA]

Coronavirus

Long term leave without pay is exactly what a layoff is. Layoff and redundant are exactly the same term. It's also called Reduction In Force. Different terms for exactly the same thing. All include the possibility of recall at some future time.

So with all that cleared up, you're basically saying cx will say "either take a layoff voluntarily or we will... lay you off anyway" ?

Sounds Like typical cathay silliness.

[Rie]

The issue with a long term lwop/furlough is that no airline will hire you as they will consider the fact that you will return to your original company as soon as possible. That makes any investment in you worthless for them.

[VforVENDETTA]

Not true. I personally know many who are currently laid off and have been hired at another job flying while on layoff.

[Curry Lamb]

Sam Ting Wong

When you send your recruitment team to places like India and Pakistan, and no-one even shows up for the interview, that reeks of desperation!

[Coronavirus]

VforVENDETTA

Hi,
I don't think you understand certain definitions.
A layoff or redundancy situation will leave the pilot with zero attachment to the airline. Leave with out pay still leaves the pilot with his years of service, insurance (for now), staff travel (for now).

There is a massive difference. Just keep reading the above paragraph untill it clicks.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Curry Lamb

Cathay was NEVER short of crew. EVER. It's a wet dream, a fantasy, a fugazi, a pprune urban myth handed over from generation to generation, kept alive by ignorance, wishful thinking, delusion and Cxorcist. And they NEVER will be.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Coronavirus

totally correct, massive difference!

[krismiler]

Is any CX pilot who finds a half decent job back in his home country going to return ? Most airlines taking on laid off CX crew have little to worry about.

[Sam Ting Wong]

what job??? get real!

[VforVENDETTA]

Coronavirus

I think the fact that different English speaking countries use different words for the same things is lost on you. For instance, the word redundant is not used in the American version of English language the same as the word layoff is not in the England english. Examples are too numerous to list. ALL of those companies that use the word redundant vs layoff WILL be calling those who have been made redundant before they hire off the street again. Perfect and very recent example is Emirates. Another closer to home is cathay itself. After having made redundant a very small number of pilots back in October, they did recall some of them back to work. So no, when you're made redundant, you're not the same as fired. You're just sent home without pay until further notice, which may or may not ever come and you may or may not decide to come back. This is exactly how a layoff works in the US. I've worked under different contracts in different parts of the world for too damn long and this is how it works. They all have their own silly language to say the same things.

The breakeven calculation most airlines use when hiring pilots is if you stay for at least 2 years it's been worth the training costs for them to hire you. So if they think the chances of you being recalled and going back are not likely in the next 2 years, yes they will still hire you.

[krismiler]

CX isn’t a career airline anymore, back in the 1980s it was a dream job and a pilot who was fortunate enough to get in would expect to stay until retirement.

Now it’s like the Middle East, a place you go if you have to but you don’t really want to. Post pandemic, they will be calling people back, and these people will come if they don’t have any better option. They will still get pilots, even QR manage that, but the airline won’t be on the career radar of someone working for a low cost carrier in their home country.

A regional base with EasyJet where you have a lower cost of living, decent career progression, a reasonable income and are in your own bed at night. Who would give that up for the toxic living and working environment of HKG and CX ?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Before you hand in your notice, you might want to check the after tax salary for a First Officer at Easyjet first.

[SaulGoodman]

not that much less then CX is paying now. And command will likely be faster. Fatter flight attendants (if based in the UK)

[MENELAUS]

Good call Saul

[Sam Ting Wong]

Look, it is about 2700 net. Get real. Forget quick commands too, we are living in a different world now, you will be lucky to get a job interview at all.

On top of that it is unrealistic to assume other airlines will just kerp their pre-Covid packages, hard to see O'Leary overlooking the daily truck load of applications. Of course they will adapt to the new market.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Dragon Pacific]

Big announcement to come once the 14days of CNY are done. Can’t keep paying people for doing nothing.

[MENELAUS]

:mad:. Never knew it lasted 14 days. !!!

[Dragon Pacific]

In fact after looking it up it appears to be 15 days!

Fifteenth day, Lantern Festival
(Traditional Chinese: 元宵節 , Pinyin: yuán xiāo jié, literally: first night festival)
The 15th day marks the first full moon after the Spring Festival and of the New Year, also known as yuán xiāo jié meaning "first night of the full moon". The day is as well known as Lantern Festival day.
Another reunion dinner is held with lanterns and oranges being a large part of the celebrations.
It is customary to eat special sweet dumplings called yuanxiao resembling the shape of the full moon. These round balls are made of glutinous rice flour stuffed with sugar fillings, symbolizing reunion.

[mothy1583]

Mid-Autumn Festival, also known as the lantern or moon festival, takes place annually on the 15th day of the eighth month in the Chinese calendar, and this year, that day falls on October 1, 2020

Looks like we've got some breathing room

[Avinthenews]

Dragon Pacific

Just asked and the 26th is the last day.

That’s a Friday.

[Rie]

Mothy, different lantern festival... Also it's 2021. The Spring Lantern Festival/Yuen Siu is 26th Feb. Conveniently Chinese Groundhog day is in March...

[Sam Ting Wong]

Or the Year of the Ox starts with a lot of BS

[Gnadenburg]

krismiler

If you are interested in the KA demographic, the dilemma for an expatriate to return will be either they've sold their property, or if they didn't hold property, there is no housing allowance to return to in Hong Kong.

The same will apply for any future CX layoffs. Pilots that sell will be wealthy enough to be intolerant of poor conditions of service and high levels of unnecessary professional stress. And those that are not must weigh up paying to live in Hong Kong !

[Flex88]

Globocnik

The longer you can stretch out "paid" statutory holidays (for teachers & government workers that is) the better ay wot 🧐

[Walkingthedog]

Gnadenburg

I would just add that the stresses of uprooting the family at short notice will not be quickly forgotten and the attitude amongst many is “Ill never take an expat job again “.
This was compounded by being fired by e-mail and abandoned by our own management overnight.

[noboloco]

Gnadenburg

yet many would still return to Hong Kong given the chance (and are hopeful that will be the case) because:
a) there aren’t and won’t be any jobs in their home country for a long time; and
b) even on COS20 the package is still better than what they can earn back home or on a contract job say in Vietnam (which is likely going to be their only option once borders open)

[krismiler]

There isn't much dilemma in deciding whether to return or not, if you have no other options available and need to put food on the table then back you go. During the course of a prolonged lay off, there is some attrition. Medicals get failed, for older pilots it may not be worth going back just for a couple of years, some retire early and permanently, others start a business and the lucky ones find other flying jobs.

A pilot of furlough from a major US airline such as United or American would be less attractive to a potential employer as they know he would go back as soon as the opportunity presented itself. Offer a CX or EK pilot a half decent job in their home country and it's far less likely they would return if given the chance. After a year settled in back home, few will want to uproot and move across the world a second time. The first time it was a big adventure and the conditions on offer were a big draw card. Now the shine has worn off and they know exactly what they would be getting into. The new COS are much reduced and the big shiny jet syndrome disappeared. Been there, done that with the B777 into JFK and now happy to bring the B737 home and go down the pub afterwards.

[Flying Clog]

100% agree krismiler

[Curry Lamb]

noboloc

a) Pure speculation. If recruitment starts again, ALL airlines will be looking. Nothing special about CXi or Hongkers anymore - good days are long gone.

b) Pure speculation. Comparing apples and bananas. It’s all RELATIVE, where is “back home”? A bowl of phô in ‘Nam is much cheaper than a bowl of phô in Honkers.

[fatbus]

If you look at the ME3 as a reference as to culling a surplus, very very few are safe . All sorts of guesses as to how it was done but some of the best pilots I ever knew got let go !

[herewego75]

It is simple math.
Minimum cost to company!

[krismiler]

When pilot numbers in a company get into the hundreds or thousands, it’s impossible for the chief pilot to know everyone personally. Supposedly the amount of sick leave taken and warning letters received was a big factor in the ME3 layoffs. CX could use a similar matrix, possibly with slightly different weighting and taking other factors into consideration. Being a vocal critic of the Chinese government probably won’t do you any favours.

A computer algorithm is more likely to decide who gets the chop, rather than the CP reviewing everyone’s files and making a balanced decision taking into account seniority, performance and attitude.

[Sam Ting Wong]

There won't be any more layoffs, maybe some unpaid leave, maybe bases will be closed. Vaccines have arrived, end of the year we will be back at 60-70% pre Covid.

[fatbus]

Like your optimism!

[BuzzBox]

Sam Ting Wong

If the company closes bases, it's supposed to offer those affected the choice of relocating to HK or a redundancy payment. I doubt that either is preferred right at the moment, given the company's need to preserve cash. Of course that might all change over the longer term.

[Flying Clog]

Who in their right mind would come back to HKG on POS18 conditions from a base that's being closed? There will be very few who take up the offer.

[Sam Ting Wong]

All of them will take it

[herewego75]

I seriously feel if the Airbus/777 pilots are asked to take 6-12 months leave (be it paid or not) they need to consider this!
The company has paid you a salary to sit at home, wives to drink wine in the plaza, kids to go to international schools etc for over a year.

You should consider this or you will end up being let go. Don't think you are owed anything. The industry is in a mess. People are packing shelves that once commanded a 777/380/737 etc.

Personally I think if you don't take what is being offered you can start packing up because they will not pay you to camp out in DB anymore - and I don't blame them.

[Oasis]

If the whole of HKG would be vaccinated, it would be silly not to open it up to international travel, as the whole of Hong Kong would be immune to the disease. No threat.

[LLLQNH]

Sam Ting Wong

They won't be closing bases whilst the respective governments are paying the based crews heavily reduced wages or a large proportion of it, when all the welfare support runs out then it's possible and only then for those who don't need work visa sponsorship, that chestnut might have been swept under the rug but it's still very much there!

[Sam Ting Wong]

Fingers crossed. Let's all hope basings are here to stay, maybe the new quarantine for HK based crew are a life line in that regard..

[BalloonBuster]

Closing an on shore base takes around 1 year to go through all the legal procedings as they learned from closing MAN.
It also includes either returning to HK or a fairly generous redundancy package.

Common seniority list is still part of based contracts too...

Messing around with 800 based contracts will turn out to be bloody expensive. CX management is not that stupid.
They’ll keep on asking for voluntary salary refuction schemes, so the paid holiday continues

[LLLQNH]

herewego75

Obviously your on the freighter from the tone of your post, let me ask you this! Would you be taking such a tone if you weren't? I can almost guarantee if you weren't on the freighter and in fact on the 777/Airbus you wouldn't consider taking unpaid leave.

At the end of the day why on earth should a senior pilot sit at home and not get paid when pilots junior to them are still employed. The airline industry always has been Seniority driven and we all knew that coming in and more importantly when we joined, its the reason so many of us have stayed for so long.

LIFO or not in the new contract, I expect junior pilots to pay any price before senior pilots it's just the way it's done. Regardless of colour, creed, age, sex, nationality and or religion. How about we start by dumping all the second officers, then maybe we can all get some more hours to pay our rents on this new POS 18

[controlledrest]

I entirely agree with you. Problem is we don't work for a first world airline which respects the employees. POS18, which we agreed to, takes all rights away. Everything is at company discretion. Hiring, firing, fleets, leave, benefits, rostering is all as the company wishes. They can fire whomever they like whenever they like.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Only at Cathay employees complain there haven't been enough layoffs 😂

[Curry Lamb]

LLLQNH

Soon we won’t be needing any FOs either, just go solo!

http://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/sikorsky-fedex-working-on-single-pilot-cargo-plane/

[Coronavirus]

controlled rest

You chose to sign pos18.You chose to stay at an airline with zero seniority protection.
It happened just a few months ago.. have people already forgotten that no one forced you to sign a contract with zero protection?

[Pedalz]

Amen. You have no protections now, not even your sense of entitlement.

[Dilbert68]

There was no choice unless you were financially secure enough to quit. Sign or be fired during a global pandemic wasn't a choice. No doubt all of us are looking at other options but for the moment those options are limited to non-existent. That will not be the case forever.

It amazes me how some pilots on the freighter fleet seem to think the rest of us should be terminated because our fleet is currently idle. Classic "I'm alright Jack". The Cx pilot group is the most toxic, selfish group of people I have ever had the misfortune of working with. Is it the company? Is it Hong Kong? What turns you all into a bunch of such miserable :mad:?

[Oasis]

Coronavirus

yes we were forced, remember?

either this or bye bye..

what else were you going to do?

the only thing we could do to counter was to all walk away, but for that you need union and a union.

[G Merch]

LLLQNH

You may want to start to accept the new reality. You signed your seniority away last November. This company care nothing about you and your family. You are an expense to the company, and they will always look for the cheaper option. This also means that if you have children, you are likely more expensive, and easier to punt when they need more staff cuts. Don't think for a second that the company will choose you or your family's well being over a dollar.

Going on about "just the way it's done" or an "industry always has been Seniority driven" makes you look a little deluded, and chasing a ship that sailed long ago.

[Rie]

Maybe it'll turn into a Qatar situation. Send home the good guys before realising that you actually needed the experience and beg for them to come back.

[CodyBlade]

You are an expense to the company, and they will always look for the cheaper option.

Brutal assessment but correct

[volare_737]

Dilbert68

I think its Hong Kong !! I am home now for the last 3 months and seriously contemplating of not going back. We all forgot how good live can be ! Get out of there !

[fly1981]

herewego75

just out of interest sake, what fleet are you on? The 747? It’s all fair and well to say people ‘ SHOULD’ take what is offered to them, but given the fact that the people you are referring to are on a different contract( inferior contract) to the contract they initially signed, what happens to the people that simply cannot afford to take the offer?

[Brown Nose]

Dilbert68

Except for the guys that didn’t sign and got a nice healthy payout to retire on. Was cheap for cx as there were only a handful of blokes in cx with balls not to sign, and saved an ugly court case. Just like the handful of A scale guys that didn’t sign when B scale was introduced

[Sam Ting Wong]

What a travesty.

In the history of mankind there has never been
a non-selfish pilot. We always did what we thought was good for ourselves. I always have to cringe when I hear somebody mentioning "good will". Never seen anybody doing anything against their own interest. Not even Piet. Actually especially not Piet.

Any of us not signing had their own reason, age, a full bucket of sh. and assets, mostly. Actually make that assets and forget the rest.

Nobody got a special sweet deal by "having balls", or a "healthy package to retire on", nobody was braver than the rest, that is a complete myth, pure fabrication, alternative facts, utter BS.

[Avinthenews]

Sadly it’s the seniority system that has bred the selfish attitude to get to the top and push others below so it’ll never change.

If it were like any other job without seniority you’d be a free agent to move as and when you like into a position commensurate with experience thereby preventing the need to get to the top or move up the ladder.

Selfish pilots are here to stay.

[LongTimeInCX]

Brown Nose

Clearly you were not in CX then, and write of things you know not.
There was nothing to sign for A scale guys.
The only people who signed anything back then, were the FNG’s who signed for a poor package.
Then the next bunch signed for an even poorer package.
Hence the CX pilot group find themselves, (I can no longer say ourselves since last year) in the precarious unprotected position, where tracing back patient zero points at the first B scalers.
One wonders how things may have been different, if only.....

[Sam Ting Wong]

I wait for the day any pilot admits its him, not the other man. One can dream..

[mngmt mole]

STW, it is quite apparent that your comment is heavy with truth. We failed to fight for our careers, value and futures at every point of conflict with the Swires. We now find ourselves almost 30 years later with nothing more than a "job". There is no value left as it pertains to a "career". Anyone who pretends otherwise will find themselves at the mercy of a completely soulless organisation that cares not for you nor your family. I do not state that with a desire to preach, simply a recognition that the "princes" of Swire have finally achieved their aim. The only thing left to do is quietly wait for better opportunities...

[Piet Lood]

Actually especially not Piet.



Please elaborate.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Name one thing you ever did against your own interests.

[CodyBlade]

We became such a divided, splinted, fragmemted group everyone on personal, private contract. How to make a stand and fight on a common front.

[doolay]

No point worrying about it now, CX as a career is toast.

[Piet Lood]

Sam Ting Wong

As much as I would love to rub your face in it, I can’t name the MANY things I did that weren’t in my own interest without giving away my identity.
As opposed to you I still have a useful flying career in front of me and I am not willing to jeapordise it for the likes of you.

Having said all that, the onus of providing proof of me acting selfishly is on you, since you found it necessary to single me out in your previous post.
So, allegedly you have proof of me acting very selfishly.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You are the one constantly accusing others of acting selfishly.

Now I ask you again: name one thing you ever did against your own interests. To make it clear: sitting disgruntled in the crew lounge at 0300 am because you did not acknowledge you roster change doesn't count,you voted for that. I didn't!

I go one step farther. Anyone name anything they did ( significant, job-related) against their own interests?

At the same time most can immediately single out an especially despicable selfish and lowly group of minions among us ( which they don't belong to of course).

[Piet Lood]

Read my message again. The onus is on you!

[herewego75]

fly1981

FYI I am on the passenger fleet.
So now what?

[arse]

Sam Ting Wong

I'll take that challenge.

When we were busy, and G day call outs were common, I never worked a G day, even though doing so would have paid me a G day call out and often significant EFP. Why? Because it was common knowledge that calling the G day folks was a way of avoiding paying a pilot sitting on reserve who would cost even more in EFP. If everyone had stuck to this, then everyone would have benefited in the long term.

Now, ... STW, as you strike me as rather inflexible in your thinking; fond of absolutes; and never willing to concede a point, ... I sit holding my breath for your acknowledgement that your challenge has been meet.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You did not work on a G day because you thought it would be in your long term interest not to do so.

You are admitting it yourself, it was "common knowledge" to you it would be better not to answer the call and earn even more otherwise.

You declined a short term gain because you gambled on a larger long term gain.

And maybe once in a while you did work on a G day, or you want to tell me you never ever did it? Ever in your career? My guess would be you did decline just often enough to not destroy your reputation, just like the rest of us, and only as long as you thought the majority is doing the same.

You never acted against your interests, quite the opposite.

Thank you for a textbook game theory example.

[hkgcanuck]

I can give you an example. I voted against a TA that would have put more cash in my pocket in the short term (to my advantage as I planned to leave CX) because I felt that it would be worse for the pilot body as a whole in the long run.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Again, very easy to see through.

Voting did not cost you much, the loss was abstract and you wanted to leave anyway. Maybe the rejection would have resulted in a better offer, a gamble many accepted back then. Probably it was your secret hope as well.

But it gave you immediate satisfaction to raise two fingers to the company, that was your gain. You acted in your interest because voting the way you did made you feel better about yourself.

[G Merch]

That's right folks. Keep bickering between yourselves. It'll help remove the attention from the giant brush stroke shaped phallus pushing further and further into your rear each day.

[hyg]

Sam Ting Wong

If you push it to that extreme, then no one on this planet would have done something that's not in one's own interest.... :rolleyes:

[Sam Ting Wong]

Indeed. True altruism is extremely rare. Maybe some forms exist within a group of very close kin or among exceptional individuals, but even there it is fiercly debated. To expect altruism within an international group of thousands of random colleagues who mostly never met face-to-face is ambitious, to put it mildly. To accuse someone in a work environment like ours of selfishness is simpy absurd.

Also note the "sacrifice" in the above case was minimal and not even assured, the rejection could have been just a gamble for more. Also he knew very well his vote was just one of thousands and hence rather insignificant. I think it would be very difficult to actually objectively acknowledge any sacrifice in this particular case. But boy did it feel good to say no!

I am not trying to create chaos, but rather argue to finally stop the constant accusation of selfishness in other groups, may it be a different fleet, rank, base, or (worst of all) ethnic group. It is precisely that righteous and distracting "bickering between ourselves" I would like to end (that and because I am bored to death)

[Piet Lood]

STW, with your logic even Mother Theresa is a selfish person, because all her sacrifice and good deeds were done because she would have felt worse had she not performed those deeds or sacrificed her life.
What a selfish :mad: she was.
I don’t disagree with that premise (and we find the likes of Christopher Hitchens on our side), but then what’s the point of arguing about selfishness?

I like to look a little further and call out the G day workers, training ban breakers, selfish managers.
Used to have a front row seat to all the :mad: excuses about why people were special and they simply HAD TO pick up their phone, because their dog ate their homework.

Now, STW, back to the original premise that I have accused the GENERAL pilot population of being selfish. Granted: my opinion might have been a little skewed since I dealt with many of the violators of cc/tb, but you’re right: I made a generalisation of the pilot population.
You have proven time and again that you are only out for yourself and voted for or against TA’s accordingly, as is your right.
”Fortunately” the likes of you have found yourself in the minority and like a certain ex-president, have left no opportunity unused to point out the stupidity of the majority and that it should have really been YOUR side that should have been in majority.

You have provided much proof of your selfishness and have even admitted that you are not really interested in the long term effects of your votes, behaviour and opinions, as long as your portfolio of real estate is not negatively affected.
If you want to read that proof again, you can go back into pprune history and look at our many collisions.

The question remains however, why you thought it necessary to single me out and SPECIFICALLY name me as a selfish person.
You must have proof to make such a statement and I, for one, would love to hear it, so I can better my ways and make people like you proud of yourselves for making the world a better place.

[Flying Clog]

Get a room fellas.

[hkgcanuck]

Sam Ting Wong

Uhh what? Voting cost me a bunch of cash. I was hoping that rejection would lead to a better offer, a better long term deal for my colleagues who were not going to be leaving the company. It wasn't a secret hope... I did not act in my interest. Are you actually insane? It honestly sounds like by your personal definition, that is isn't possible to do something that isn't in one's own self interest. That is a sad way to go through life. In my time as an RQ I also almost always gave the CN extra rest, I suppose that was selfish too?

[Brown Nose]

LongTimeInCX

Clearly you don’t know who I am then

[LongTimeInCX]

Correct.
I know not who you are.
More importantly, I care even less who you are.

However, despite this being a rumour network, when you write about something and get the facts wrong, but are writing as if you know what you are talking about, it is either ignorance, fishing, assumption, :mad:-stirring, deliberate misinformation or just more likely, you were not around at the time and simply do not have a clue what you are talking about.
Doing as such, simply adds another false vote to an incorrect statement, that some other numpty at some point further down the tracks will repeat and pass on as fact.
So I’ll go with latter, you simply do not have a clue.

[Flying Clog]

Time for the mods to stick a fork in this one.