What will UK CAA regs look like post Brexit?

[Climb150]

So I have the right to work in the UK but only have an FAA and ICAO ATP/ATPL. Is there any possibility that converting to the new UK CAA license will be any less painful than converting to EASA? At a guess I imagine that they will just replace the words EASA with UK CAA and job done. Exactly the same.

I know the industry is bleak right now, I'm thinking a few years ahead.

[Banana Joe]

I don't see the UK flight training syllabus to change that much in a few years, so it will still be 14 exams for the foreseeable future. I would suggest you get an EASA ATPL now and from April 2021 you can apply for a UK CAA national license with a EASA license. As of now, the opposite is not possible.

[Climb150]

I will just bight the bullet and go UK CAA. I realise that doing the conversion in EU is probably much cheaper and I can still convert it to UK up until 2022, but that is just a level of screwing around I can't do. I also have no right to work in the EU or have a use for an EASA license.

[Banana Joe]

Why do you consider it screwing? An EASA license could be useful to fly a EU registered aircraft based in the UK.

[Climb150]

Im not going to pay keep currency on a CAA and EASA licence.
Unless an examiner can sign off a check ride for CAA and EASA at the same time it's not worth it.

[rudestuff]

Climb150

At last. It's amazing how many thousands of people seem to think they NEED an EASA licence. People who live in the UK queueing up to give away a UK licence for an EASA one which is valid in Europe but for which most of them will have no guaranteed right of abode.

[Contact Approach]

I think it’s more to do with continuity and keeping a recognised licence until such time as there’s a framework within the U.K. to deal with. As it stands the guys who hold EASA licences are unaffected whereas the U.K. guys are in total limbo.

[rudestuff]

Re: the CAA recognising EASA but not the other way around - it kind of shows you who the good guys are doesn't it?
Re: being in total limbo. Someone flying a G-reg can carry on doing so exactly as they have for years. Exactly like an FAA certificate holder can still fly an N-reg and a TC licence holder can still fly a C-reg. Someone flying a D-reg on a UK licence would have a very good reason to SOLI - but someone who flies a C152 or is working towards a CPL? Less so...

[Contact Approach]

I don’t think I could ever call the CAA good guys, particularly when they are without doubt the most incompetent Authority I have ever dealt with. That being said EASA haven’t exactly been good either and it leaves a lot to be desired.

[portsharbourflyer]

" I would suggest you get an EASA ATPL now and from April 2021 you can apply for a UK CAA national license with a EASA license. As of now, the opposite is not possible".

The above is not correct on the current agreements.

From the UK CAA Website

https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition/commercial-pilots/
The CAA is currently developing a process to enable pilots to apply for the issue of a UK Part-FCL licence based on the licence they hold with an EASA member state. This will be available to pilots that previously held an EASA licence and transferred it out, and to pilots that hold a licence issued by an EASA member state prior to 31 December 2020. This will be available from 1 April 2021.

EASA licences issued after the 31/12/2020 are not covered in the existing agreements. So if the poster now gains an EASA license it is not currently eligible for UK FCL issue.
There may well be agreements later on but they don't exist at the moment.

Like wise the 2 year validation is only available to EASA license holders holding a valid licesnse as of the 31/12/2020, they are not applicable to new issue EASA licenses.

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=10006
Copied from the validation form.
This validation applies to any licence issued prior to 1 January 2021 including any rating included within that licence that remains valid until 31 December 2022 (the licence subject to this validation must have an issue date prior to 1 January 2021, as stated in Section II of the EASA Part-FCL licence (EASA Form 141).

[Climb150]

portsharbourflyer,

That settles it then. Absolutely not going to mess around with EASA. I'm hoping that the testing centres in the USA will be able to administer the UK CAA ATPL exams just like they can do the EASA exams now.

[BAe 146-100]

No offense but spending time or money getting EASA or UK CAA in 2021 is utterly pointless. If you have a FAA it’s probably more useful and less hassle to maintain.

If you read in between the lines its obvious aviation in Europe has seen its day and this is another barrier directly to put people off training and getting lisences. Why spend any time and energy trawling 14000 questions banks and reading stuff which you will never use in the real world just to make the exams hard to pass is beyond me...... how many jobs will really exist in the UK??

[Climb150]

Bae 146

I did say in my original post that this is for a couple of years from now after the dust settles from CoVID and the industry is in a little better shape. I was aiming at the biz jet work too as I already have a biz jet type.

[jez d]

Re: the CAA recognising EASA but not the other way around - it kind of shows you who the good guys are doesn't it?

Disagree. It requires the consent of the 27 Member States in order for EASA to recognise a UK CAA-issued licence - it is not EASA in isolation that makes these decisions. And why should they? There may well be an element of schadenfreude at play amongst the EU27, which is entirely understandable, but for the UK to assume that it will automatically be granted licence recognition is more than a little naive. Welcome to the brave new world!

[portsharbourflyer]

Again the reason you wont see any information detailing the Validation of the UK Part FCL license at the moment, is the UK Part FCL license is an ICAO license.
Most EASA NAAs already have a process for which a 12 month validation of a third country ICAO license can be obtained where an operator sees a need to employ a non EASA licensed pilot. Therefore the UK FCL licences is covered by the existing agreements for ICAO licenses in EASA.

So while this is not quite the same as mutual recognition; it is again incorrect to say that EASA does not recognise the UK FCL licesnse.
The EASA 12 month validation process for ICAO licenses covers UK FCL licences.

[Central Scrutinizer]

rudestuff

How about non-UK nationals, foreign students, who have done their training in the UK and don't plan on staying in the UK long term? (such as my case).

These people are completely screwed right now. And at a competitive disadvantage against EASA holders who can work and fly as if they held UK licences, but not the other way around...

[Central Scrutinizer]

portsharbourflyer

Correct me if I am wrong but validation applies to licence holders with 1000+ flight hours. UK CPL/IR holders with 200 hours are absolutely screwed as of now.

[portsharbourflyer]

Central Scrutinizer,

Yes the validation does have minimum experience requirements, these vary depending on if it is a CPL/IR or a full ATPL with a multi crew rating on it.

I would also point out that most European Operators use to have fluency requirements in the local language to actually stop non-nationals applying, so the EASA License didn't in practice really create the freedom to work across Europe as many like to believe or make out. That was certainly the case for French, German and Scandinavian companies.
Also as stated in my previous post the UK is only recognising EASA licences issued before the transistion date, some one gaining an EASA licese after the 1st Jan 2021 is not eligible for the UK validation or UK FCL issue on the current agreements (that may change), so it isn't the one way thing that everyone keeps stating.

[spitfirejock]

If it wasn't for the pandemic, Brexit and the whole issue of mutual recognition between UK CAA & EASA would be a lot clearer and I believe, a lot different. Most regulators are still working from home and it's going to take some time for the fog to lift and common sense to prevail. No doubt the HAS to be a meeting of minds to avoid chaos.

IMHO, the new, recently signed, Bilateral Agreement (BA) for mutual recognition of licenses and ratings with a simple conversion process, between EASA and the FAA (the latter being a third country in EASA speak) points the way to exactly how EASA will allow conversion from UK CAA (a third country now) to an EASA Part-FCL license in the future.

My current advice, which UK and European schools will likley advise against for obvious reason, is to use all the advantages of the FAA system (ease and cost) and then convert (later) to EASA using the BA. If you went to a school in the USA that also had UK approvals (if you are based in the UK) it is the icing on the cake! If the training process is well thought out, you could get your UK & FAA PPL's, FAA IR, get some good VFR and IFR time under you belt, sit the UK or EASA ATPL's when you are ready and the job market looks better and then rely on the BA to convert as needed. I estimate that this could all be done for less than £40,000 spread out over 2 years - surely this is affordable and a sensible approach? If I was starting again, it is certainly what I would do.

Rudestuff is right, stop agonising over EASA right now, go for a UK license if you are based in the UK and convert later when a job is likely in Europe.

If you want EASA and/or UK now, use the FAA BA to you're advantage, it will save time and money.

[Central Scrutinizer]

If it wasn't for the pandemic, Brexit and the whole issue of mutual recognition between UK CAA & EASA would be a lot clearer and I believe, a lot different. Most regulators are still working from home and it's going to take some time for the fog to lift and common sense to prevail. No doubt the HAS to be a meeting of minds to avoid chaos.

IMHO, the new, recently signed, Bilateral Agreement (BA) for mutual recognition of licenses and ratings with a simple conversion process, between EASA and the FAA (the latter being a third country in EASA speak) points the way to exactly how EASA will allow conversion from UK CAA (a third country now) to an EASA Part-FCL license in the future.

What if that EASA-UK bilateral agreement never comes for political reasons? It has nothing to do with the UK syllabus or training standards, which are on par if not higher than EASA. It's just the EU way to give the UK the middle finger for leaving the union.


Rudestuff is right, stop agonising over EASA right now, go for a UK license if you are based in the UK and convert later when a job is likely in Europe.
What would you say to an EU national who is only temporarily living in the UK and has now a UK CPL/IR which is essentially worthless in the rest of Europe? I can't use my expensive licence in my home country now unless I go through a very lengthy, expensive and painful process of ICAO to EASA convertion which involves sitting those 14 ATPL exams ALL OVER AGAIN.
Or should I just wait and hope for regulators to apply that common sense that never materialised itself, and do something else with my life in the meantime?

[Reverserbucket]

Central Scrutinizer - have you qualified post Jan 1st 2021? If not, did you consider the change of State of Licence issue process which could have provided an EASA Part-FCL licence with the opportunity to apply for a UK equivalent later this year?

[Central Scrutinizer]

I have an IR and I'm still to finish my CPL (thanks to lockdowns). However, my ATO is EASA approved so I could theoretically apply for an EASA CPL/IR if an EASA Member State were to honour my APTL Theory and ME-IR done while the UK was still in EASA.

If your question is why I didn't SOLI Transfer last year, it's because I was about to finish the course and skill test in October. My plan was to finish and then transfer. I couldn't finish in time due to several weather delays, my skills test got cancelled 8 times due to weather! It's been a nightmare.

[Reverserbucket]

Understood. Your TK credits should be valid for an EASA Part-FCL licence issue assuming they were completed prior to Dec 31st. As an EASA and a UK ATO, your training provider should give you the choice, surely?

[jez d]

Central Scrutinizer, a bit more woe to add to your current situation comes in the form of your IR flight test, if you're looking to gain an EASA IR rather than a UK IR. According to EASA regulation ORA.DTO.150, ‘Training in third countries’, IR training requires “acclimatisation flying in one of the Member States before the IR skill test is taken” and that the IR skill test “shall be taken in one of the Member States”. As the UK is no longer an EU/EASA Member State you can't now, according to the regulation, do your flight test in UK airspace, even though the UK remains a signatory to the Standardised European Rules of the Air (SERA).

UK ATOs can apply for an exemption from whichever Member State now holds their EASA approval (or with EASA if they are registered direct with the agency), but as the regulation is classed as 'hard law', any flexibility on the rules may not be forthcoming and enacting changes to hard law is a drawn-out process. IAOPA are apparently going to ask that the regulation is changed to read "shall be taken in airspace that conforms to SERA", but even if this was accepted then it won't happen overnight. And, to be frank, why would EASA or its Member States want to change the regulation when it will effectively amount to a loss of business? As you alluded to earlier, such agreements do not happen quickly and are generally done for political rather than practical reasons.

[Central Scrutinizer]

Thanks for the help. I already have the UK IR (skill test last March 2020), I'm exploring whether there is an EASA authority out there willing to recognise it

[jez d]

Glad to hear it. Good luck in getting over the finishing line!

[Reverserbucket]

Alternatively, for a UK based EASA ATO, position to an EASA State from the UK and conduct IR acclimatisation and testing there to comply with ORA.ATO.150.

[selfin]

The rule in ORA.ATO.150 applies to IR training done at third-country training organisations approved by EASA. This does not apply to CBM IR applicants, who hold a Part-FCL PPL or CPL and a valid ICAO Annex 1-compliant IR, who may be credited in full towards the relevant training course, in accordance with point Aa.8 in appendix 6 to Part-FCL.

[BONES_]

My understanding is that obtaining a CB IR is by definition training as required and testing for an instrument rating (IR). As such, ORA.ATO.150 para (2) does still apply. This is what the ATO I work part-time for has been told by the its overseeing Authority.

But I’d very glad to be proven wrong!

[selfin]

The possibility of being "credited in full" in point 8 of section Aa requires the applicant to have 50 hours under the IFR as PIC. There will be no course completion certificate in these circumstances making ORA.ATO.150 irrelevant.