NPAS News 2021

[J.A.F.O.]

Happy New Year everyone and many thanks to Bryn Elliott PANews for saying what many have thought for years - in some cases before NPAS was even created.

PAN January (http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/297January2021.pdf)

[tigerfish]

Happy New Year everyone and many thanks to Bryn Elliott PANews for saying what many have thought for years - in some cases before NPAS was even created.

PAN January (http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/297January2021.pdf)
I totally agree too. I even lost my job for predicting this.

TF

[MAN777]

Agreed

I dont understand in what is supposed to be a democratic and transparent country how such an organisation can get away with such behavior with what appears to be operational and financial irresponsibility which has decimated a chain of proud units providing a fantastic service to the guys on the ground.

[MAN777]

NPAS was sold to me years ago as an organisation that could pool training, staff, equipment and have more purchasing power. The goal being to make air support more efficient, save costs and provide a better service to the Police forces around the country. It appears to have failed on the majority of these goals.

Put an end to this organisation and give control back to the actual users, bring the birds home.

[ShyTorque]

The two questions that need a truthful answer:

Has NPAS provided a more effective service than the previous system?

Has it done so for less financial outlay?

Sadly both are rhetorical. It’s a scandal which ought to be made more public.

[tigerfish]

The concept of a National Police Air Wing was sound. It could have standardised training, fuel purchases maintenance contracts and everything else. But it needed to be organised and delivered on a Regional basis. Instead its only mantra was slash and burn, decimate the fleet!

Instead of being a rapid response tool to operational Policing, it was deliberately hamstrung. Aircraft had so far to fly to get to any incident they were always going to be too late and short of fuel.

We all knew that but would they listen? **********!!!

TF

[Bravo73]

It’s a scandal which ought to be made more public.

Have Private Eye covered the issue in detail yet?

[MightyGem]

AS JAFO said, many of us in Police Aviation at the time had many reservations as to whether the NPAS concept would work. Time has been proving us right for some time now.

I used to fly for Merseyside at Woodvale. I was told a few months ago that NPAS had made enquires with the RAF about moving back. You couldn't make it up.

It’s a scandal which ought to be made more public.
I tried to interest the Daily Mail in the story 3 years ago but they replied that they were:
inundated with feature ideas and proposals and the Features Editor is unable to use yours.

[ShyTorque]

Unfortunately there is no chance of the unit that I flew for moving back. The entire accommodation, newly built in 1998, has been completely bulldozed.

[tigerfish]

Personally I blame Hogan Howe and Theresa May,
From the moment they got involved it was ONLY about trying to save shed loads of money, and the Concept of operational Police Air Support went right out the window .
From being World leaders in 2008 we were at the bottom of the pile by 2014. And have got steadily worse ever since.

TF

[RichiePAO]

The Base at RAF Henlow is I believe vacant....

[Fortyodd2]

The Base at RAF Henlow is I believe vacant....

Is that the former RAF Henlow that's about to be a large housing estate??

[RotaryJ]

I think so... Such a shame too, Henlow and Benson Units were amazing units and reflected what a good collaborated helicopter service should be like! Seems like NPAS never learnt anything...

[bell222]

Just read on Twitter that g-dcpb based at Exeter is going to London, I thought the reason they had a bigger a/c was that they cover a vast area including scilly isles etc also to transport specialist teams & casevacs !!!!!

[PANews]

Unless you have heard that it is permanent it may not be an issue. This has happened several times before.

There are insufficient airframes for Oxford to keep three on-line at the two locations ..... they are far more difficult to maintain than the EC135 and for a long time the Lippitts Hill fleet were supported by a 135 for the same reason. That was regularised by the move of the Essex aircraft to Lippitts Hill and then all the fleet to North Weald.

It all underlines just how well the stand-alone maintenance organisation at Lippitts Hill operated. They knew their aircraft and repaired them on demand. Yes they were sometimes all offline [and sometimes deliberately offline] but equally they were able to put 3 145s on line for special events. That, I would venture, simply does not happen now.

[TripleTacho]

NPAS was sold to me years ago as an organisation that could pool training, staff, equipment and have more purchasing power. The goal being to make air support more efficient, save costs and provide a better service to the Police forces around the country. It appears to have failed on the majority of these goals.

Put an end to this organisation and give control back to the actual users, bring the birds home.
A repeated opinion over the past 9 years - "it was better when forces had their own aircraft". One question that springs from this though is which forces would actually be able to afford having their own aircraft again? Apart from the Met, GMP and West Mids, who out of those 32 / 33 Forces who had ASUs would fund it now. NPAS gets a lot of negative press but at least there is still a service to the vast majority of forces. I think without NPAS warts and all, the reality is the majority of ASUs would have been closed by chief constables and aircraft sold by now.

[PANews]

I do 'worry' when people invent a new identity for themselves to pose a question. But, that aside....

You are quite right. We were always aware that, particularly under Home Secretary Teresa May, ordinary UK police aviation was on he cusp of expiring [good through it was] simply due to the lack of money. And that is why it was generally welcomed as the saviour organisation.

This was a little ahead of the small and capable drone... Love them or hate them the drone has produced another option for air support for smaller police organisations. Even if they are also producing their own problems. Forces are creating organisations in house that take them from being just another tool in the box to being a department of their own. Create a department and it has to have a sergeant, and inspector and maybe a superintendent [mostly just pen pushers] to oversee it and it ends up having a staff that are taken off the streets sitting there waiting for a call [just like air support]. So not perfect.

And that's what happened with NPAS its head grew bigger than the body. It ended up sucking the life out of the mission.

A lot will end up with nothing but they will have their drones and hopefully when the 'big wheel' comes off there will be resources elsewhere that can provide a manned air support mission for the significant emergencies. In the NPAS game plan that is what the fixed wing were supposed to be .... but something has gone wrong there that we do not yet know about that has reduced the projected fleet of 6 to 4 four delivered and now to 2 operated and soon to one...

All we need now is for Ted Rogers to introduce Dusty Bin to keep all the parts of the various forward planning scripts in... (sorry if you are too young to remember Ted)...

[MightyGem]

Just heard that the crews at Carr Gate are being reduced by 50% in order to help pay for the fixed wing. :mad:

[MightyGem]

Apparently, the only Forces willing to pay for a FW are Humberside and S. Yorks.

[RotaryJ]

Yet again more idiocy from NPAS HQ, Carr Gate are more beneficial than Doncaster. Quicker launch times, No Taxiing around an airport, Hovering and Deplane abilities, Better availability and more reliable... the list is endless.

I did witness that Doncaster are becoming a 24hr asset at some point this year, I am going to guess probably May-June time as there is 3 Fixed Wing Pilot Positions there which all have a start date of May. But reducing one base and then making another 24hr seems stupid to me. The most logical thing to do is ditch the damn planes and look into a Rotary Fleet replacement programme! :*

[PANews]

I heard the Carr Gate thing slightly differently in that they were planned for downsizing a while back. Someone found an 'old' report on line [on the internal system] that mentioned a Carr Gate downsize. There was also mention of the helicopter going to Doncaster. As a result staff that could not get to Doncaster from their homes bailed out of air support [or moved bases]. So that when the plan was was eventually queried and discounted by management officers had already gone and a new tranche of officers needed to be recruited to fill the resultant gaps to take the base up to 24/7 capable.

A new plan [the most recent] emerged that sought cut the hours of Carr Gate and other places which means that Carr Gate now has too many TFOs for it needs.

Just ongoing confusion of plans that appears to be wasting money in training up new people unnecessarily.

If Carr Gate were to move to Doncaster to fill the yawning space there it would compound the cost issues.

Why would you give up an existing, bought and paid for, base on your own land at Carr Gate [the site houses many other police departments] to simply fill space within a hangar at Doncaster airport where you have to pay ongoing rent and rates etc at International Airport numbers? Moving the remains of fixed wing [whatever that is] elsewhere makes more sense. As I said confusion.

There is nothing wrong with fixed wing but it is a different mission profile to helicopters [and drones].

[MightyGem]

But reducing one base and then making another 24hr seems stupid to me.
Not just the one base. It seems that a number of bases are reducing to a single 12 hour shift.

[J.A.F.O.]

They say that if you could give an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters then, eventually, they would produce the complete works of Shakespeare.

Give one monkey a typewriter for half an hour and he'd come up with a better plan for NPAS than they've managed in the last 9 years.

[MightyGem]

I don't know if any of you ventured beyond Bryn's comments in January's PAN. I didn't initially until my attention was drawn to an article by David Howell who served as(I think) the UEO of Central Counties ASU and Base Manager for the Met. I think he may be here on PPrune as well. Here are a few quotes to whet your appetite.

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/297January2021.pdf
The decision to move the Lippitts Hill base was made several years ago, but why was it made? It was made by a Chief Operating Officer who was intent solely on removing any organisational influence from The Met and was based on personal biases created over many years, some of which were actually spent working within the Met itself.

There was also an unhealthy desire for the then Chief Operating Of- ficer of NPAS to succeed, having failed the Senior Police National Assessment Centre (PNAC).

I for one went through several sessions of counselling to get over a 2 hour ‘non-disciplinary and welfare’ meeting after I dared to question and suggest an alternative plan to his non-sensical restructuring of base managers’ duties.

[Ruffles]

Picking up on Mighty Gem’s mention of the decision to leave Lippitts Hill. I understood that the departure from Lippitts Hill was because the MPS gave NPAS notice to vacate i.e. it wasn’t NPAS that triggered the move. I would have thought that David Howell was more than aware of this? Or is there another side to the story?

[PANews]

Hello Ruffles,

Its a timescale thing. The original move from Lippitts Hill to North Weald was precipitated by NPAS and may arguably be placed at the feet of the COO. That was the several years ago DH mentioned.

The Lippitts Site was relatively expensive [rental/lease] but what is being suggested is that the prime mover was breaking the bond between the Met and the NPAS unit - force jealousy.

Lippitts has been in use as a Met helicopter base full time for over forty years [53 on and off if you include the army trials] and remains firmly Met Territory even though a border move actually placed it in Essex Police area since 2000.

You are correct that the Met have/will/might [it has not happened yet] precipitate the return to Lippitts Hill and the site has been maintained ready to accept them on that basis. Whether the immediate neighbours will scupper that - they have had many noise free months - and whether the recently reported move of the Exeter EC145 to North Weald is a bargaining chip only time will tell.

The only problem with being a 'fly on the wall' in this situation is that you probably also need to be on many walls at the same time in this zoom age!

[Sky Sports]

the site has been maintained ready to accept them

Not the case. The site was falling apart before the move out, (one hangar out of action due to folding doors not working) and not a penny has been spent on it since.

[Cabby]

The NPAS social media pages mention that their planes have been very busy over the last few months visiting various force areas.

With regards to the earlier drone comments, how many forces have their own drone units?

Do those with drones pay as much for NPAS as other forces who don't use drones?

[MightyGem]

Do those with drones pay as much for NPAS as other forces who don't use drones?
Forces pay NPAS for the time that the helicopter spends on "Actioned Calls": ie overhead a task. Doesn't matter whether they are using a drone for other jobs, their use of drones doesn't affect what they pay NPAS.

[Cabby]

Forces pay NPAS for the time that the helicopter spends on "Actioned Calls": ie overhead a task. Doesn't matter whether they are using a drone for other jobs, their use of drones doesn't affect what they pay NPAS.

Thanks for the answer :ok:

[PANews]

So, it appears that NPAS are moving the single EC145 from Exeter to London permanently leaving the western parts of Cornwall without long range air support [which is why the BK117C1 and then the EC145 were bought in the first place]..

Unfortunately it appears that the timing appears a little disjointed [no surprise there then] as there is a need for at least a couple of EC145s to be in Cornwall in June.

Details of the planning are coming out that there is to be an international G7 meeting in mid-June near St. Ives. That will require NPAS resources to be down at Newquay Airport/RAF St, Mawgan at the same time.

Planning?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I don't know that the move from Exeter would make much difference to Police air support in Cornwall - historically, police officers there were wont to refer to the "Devon Police Helicopter", while officers in west and south Devon referred to the "Exeter Police Helicopter". Plenty of instances of the aircraft not being available for operational tasks because the crew were needed for a visit - or IR renewals - or whatever. I certainly flew once from Wilts to Okehampton to assist with a murder investigation one night (called off as we got to within 5nm), and also remember being tasked from Brum on another night (stood down before we'd left Brum CTR). Later, when flying air ambulance in the county, a policeman I'd known in a former employ told me that their traffic officers working the motorway had no SOP for using the heli (other forces I'd worked with would only conduct a motorway pursuit or stop under the watch of the aircraft) as they knew it would rarely/never be available - despite Middlemoor's perfect position next to the M5/ANPR locations.

[PANews]

I don't know that the move from Exeter would make much difference to Police air support in Cornwall - historically, police officers there were wont to refer to the "Devon Police Helicopter", while officers in west and south Devon referred to the "Exeter Police Helicopter". Plenty of instances of the aircraft not being available for operational tasks because the crew were needed for a visit - or IR renewals - or whatever. I certainly flew once from Wilts to Okehampton to assist with a murder investigation one night (called off as we got to within 5nm), and also remember being tasked from Brum on another night (stood down before we'd left Brum CTR). Later, when flying air ambulance in the county, a policeman I'd known in a former employ told me that their traffic officers working the motorway had no SOP for using the heli (other forces I'd worked with would only conduct a motorway pursuit or stop under the watch of the aircraft) as they knew it would rarely/never be available - despite Middlemoor's perfect position next to the M5/ANPR locations.

I accept all you say.

Taking police air support overall you could easily write it off with such observations.

Policing is a 24/7/365 requirement and, except in some rare circumstances, police air support does not, cannot, meet that exacting requirement. Weather alone stops such aspirations in its tracks, that added to maintenance, pilot and crew availability and a myriad of other difficulties suggests that it is a waste of time.

However, as a past user of police air support, I can counter that with a belief that with all its failings on a clear day/night there is nothing better than the availability of an aircraft in support of humble work on the ground. The peace of mind is worth a million £/$/Yen.... On the no aircraft days you just get on with the job as you might have had to for the last 200 years.

After 9 years of effort it appears clear that the national police aircraft organisation is making all the same mistakes that others thought they had pretty much ironed out, and making them time and time again. The Exeter aircraft is just one symptom of the malaise. There are too many symptoms. Notwithstanding the standard availability drawbacks of air support we might expect for the right type of aircraft to be assigned to a given area. Someone thought about BK117/EC145 for Devon & Cornwall and EC145 for London [even if some think they were wrong].

The organisation has not apparently entered into a new rotary aircraft requirement in nine years. They do though have a fine selection of high quality but largely empty Rubb Hangars and other peripheral equipment that they seemingly now think were a waste of resources.

The one aircraft type they appear to have blundered on with, the fixed wing, now appears to have fallen from their favour despite not being utilised to any great extent. How much they have cost is a closely guarded secret but the estimates I have heard for this fleet of two operational aircraft is about equal to being able to buy 2-3 new helicopters. Undoubtedly a much greater number of used low hour airframes could have been an option along the way.

[richardthethird]

Yet they continue to advertise for fixed wing pilots... How have they managed not to fill such few positions, especially in the current employment climate?

[jayteeto]

Richard, it all depends on contracts and T&Cs
What are the “handcuffs” like?

[N707ZS]

Hope this is the right place to ask. I believe we bought four P68s and based them at Doncaster. These days in the house I have noticed that they rarely fly two at once and POLZ never seems to fly at all. Is there a reason.

[chopper2004]

And a temp facility (if it’s still there) for Covid deceased ...

cheers

[chopper2004]

Hope this is the right place to ask. I believe we bought four P68s and based them at Doncaster. These days in the house I have noticed that they rarely fly two at once and POLZ never seems to fly at all. Is there a reason.

Supposed to be assigned to our neighborhood (Cambs) and have been seen funnily operating over Cottenham— Ely to response last summer.

cheers

[Shackman]

An actual sighting of POLW over here in W Midlands. Does it come here often?

[MightyGem]

Meanwhile, it's musical helicopters here in the North West. Hawarden's is going to Bournemouth, Bournmouth's to Barton and Barton's to Hawarden. It's enough to make you dizzy. There is some method in it though. It puts the 135Ps and 135Ts in their own areas and Barton's 135 is going to Hawarden as it has less hours on it and Hawarden is going down to a single 12 hour shift in the summer.

Other news. It seem s that West Yorks are losing control of the aviation aspects of NPAS and are just retaining the central tasking.

And there is still no sign of the 2018/19 Annual Report on the NPAS website. It's time for the 2019/20 report as well.

[MAN777]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9379005/UK-police-chiefs-wasted-10m-surveillance-planes-work-built-areas.html

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-paid-10m-for-four-useless-planes-lzls7whkf (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9379005/UK-police-chiefs-wasted-10m-surveillance-planes-work-built-areas.html)

[RotaryJ]

To be brutally honest I am not surprised that the fixed wing aircraft are heading for the bin, we could all see this coming. Well, anyone with common-sense could, it's something that NPAS has always lacked, that and keeping people of industry within close proximity of the organisation... the bread and butter of police aviation treated like absolute crap and quite rightly fled. I instantly had a face palm moment when I first acknowledged that NPAS were proposing of replacing the MD902s with P68Rs, this could possibly be one of the worst decisions ever made in NPAS history, even the MD902s didn't spend this much time sitting catching dust in a hangar feeling sorry for themselves. It really does pose several questions: Is West Yorkshire Police in a fit state to be accountable of NPAS? Could there be a better force to take control and make NPAS a better organisation? What is the final straw for NPAS to be disbanded?

[switch_on_lofty]

"They [planes] cannot hover above the ground"

​​​Daily Mail right on the money there.

Anyone shed light on the claim that it can't land at most airfields as it needs a long runway, Wikipedia quotes a TODR of 400m LDR of 600m which isn't long (unless compared to a helicopter!).

[ShyTorque]

"They [planes] cannot hover above the ground"

​​​Daily Mail right on the money there.

Anyone shed light on the claim that it can't land at most airfields as it needs a long runway, Wikipedia quotes a TODR of 400m LDR of 600m which isn't long (unless compared to a helicopter!).

Not so much a problem with take-off and landing distance - but they stubbornly and stupidly choose an aircraft (initially designed well back into the last century) that uses AVGAS engines, rather than modern turbines. Most smaller, general aviation airfields where that fuel is still available are closed after dark. Larger airfields with longer operating hours often don't have AVGAS available out of daylight hours (because no-one else wants it). Filling the fuel tanks to cater for longer sorties means that only one observer can be carried, because of all up weight restraints. The previous helicopters could carry two. A high winged aircraft with small windows where the "job" is hidden as soon as the aircraft rolls into a turn to orbit was another big error.

As far as "all weather" is concerned, these aircraft had no advantage over the incumbent helicopters. They had no icing clearance so exactly the same weather limitations applied. This had to be obtained later, at the user's further cost. But the NPAS hierarchy knew best, ignoring the advice of those who actually knew what they were talking about and sacked the ones who spoke out.

It's time an inquiry is held into exactly who was pulling the strings with respect to the highly flawed decision to purchase these aircraft and the connections between them and the aircraft manufacturer.

[backtothebeat]

What is the final straw for NPAS to be disbanded?

the original contract/agreement as I read it...
was that 50% or more of the Police Chiefs need to want to end it, before it can be wound up.

[hargreaves99]

I have heard the Met are definitely taking "their" three EC145s and moving back to Lippitts Hill

I guess this could be the start of the end of the "N" in "NPAS"

[N707ZS]

Wonder if Cleveland will get there's back, they had already tried the Islander and came to the same conclusion. It was said it could hover and fly backwards in a strong wind. lol

[MAN777]

A fixed wing aircraft is OK for surveillance so long as you can get the height and stand off like the very successful GMP Defender routinely did. They are not very effective at helicopter heights.

[Fortyodd2]

I have heard the Met are definitely taking "their" three EC145s and moving back to Lippitts Hill

Hmm maybe, let's hope they don't bend one so much that it's unavailable for 6 months................

[MightyGem]

Lots of interesting reading in February's Police Aviation News:
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/298February2021PAN.pdf

[MAN777]

Just read Bryns summary of NPAS in the latest PAN.
God, Im now so depressed, what a cluster F***.
Speechless !!

[PANews]

If I am not being wildly mislead I think it may be nearly all over.

After scrambling through the mud and brambles alongside Lippitts Hill this morning I was able to see a several work crews on site playing with a nice new set of doors on the main control room hangar and new windsocks by the pad.

April 1, All Fools Day, is beckoning. That may be Metxit, but, like the European problem, I am not sure this one has a life giving vaccine to save the virus that is WYP.

[backtothebeat]

Having been one of the TFOs that was given marching orders for daring to not toe the party line at the beginning all I can say is I will dance a little jig when it finally falls.
I was literally marched out of the unit with zero notice having turned up for work that morning as usual, with the news that NPAS had rescinded my secondment with immediate effect. Ten years of ASU service ended on the whim of a Supt who knew nothing about my job.
the treasonable action I committed was to openly say what everyone new. That the only thing you get with less... is less ..!!
Hopefully the flames will lick higher sometime soon.

[ShyTorque]

BTTB,

Sounds like they wanted you out because they feared that you would be proved correct with time.
Having helped set up one ASU from scratch, and become the CP (and I know we all did a very good job) I’m so glad I took my chance to leave police aviation on my terms, rather than theirs, before NPAS began.

[4468]

A fixed wing aircraft is OK for surveillance so long as you can get the height and stand off like the very successful GMP Defender routinely did. They are not very effective at helicopter heights.

Why would you wish to operate an aeroplane at so called ‘helicopter heights’? (Whatever that means?) What’s the advantage/disadvantage?

Why was the GMP Defender ‘very successful’? Was everyone else’s not successful?

[the_flying_cop]

Why would you wish to operate an aeroplane at so called ‘helicopter heights’? (Whatever that means?) What’s the advantage/disadvantage?

Why was the GMP Defender ‘very successful’? Was everyone else’s not successful?

it was the crews that made it successful. I loved every minute of it. We had a blank canvas to start with and we made it work brilliantly. Using our experience from helicopters and adapting it accordingly. I left at the right time though.

[4468]

it was the crews that made it successful. I loved every minute of it. We had a blank canvas to start with and we made it work brilliantly.

I completely understand. But don’t you agree, nobody should make the mistake of thinking only GMP could get ‘brilliant’ results from an aeroplane!

NEASU did that many years before GMP! 1995 if I recall correctly?

Hampshire and Cheshire even earlier than that.

There’s an awful lot of blinkered and largely misplaced hubris in police aviation.

Along with the predilection for empire building which is in the police DNA, it’s all part of the problem

[the_flying_cop]

I completely understand. But don’t you agree, nobody should make the mistake of thinking only GMP could get ‘brilliant’ results from an aeroplane!

NEASU did that many years before GMP! 1995 if I recall correctly?

Hampshire and Cheshire even earlier than that.

There’s an awful lot of blinkered and largely misplaced hubris in police aviation.

Along with the predilection for empire building which is in the police DNA, it’s all part of the problem

I didn’t say GMP were the only ones to make it work.

[4468]

I didn’t say GMP were the only ones to make it work.

Fantastic. We agree.

Fixed Wing can work in the police role. A number of forces have shown that! 👍

[the_flying_cop]

Fantastic. We agree.

Fixed Wing can work in the police role. A number of forces have shown that! 👍

The only thing that doesn’t work is NPAS.

[4468]

The only thing that doesn’t work is NPAS.

Very fair comment.

[MAN777]

When GMP made a case for getting the Defender it was sold to the bosses as a multi role aircraft leaning mainly towards surveillance but available to cover routine work when the Explorer was down. “Helicopter cover” worked well when we could get the height, the “helicopter heights” I was refering to was the 1000-1500 ft zone which the rotary was happy underneath the Manchester clag! The defender 4000 was more than capable of operating at those heights but it wasnt very agile and that coupled with the hi-tec (at the time) MX15 surveillance fit meant it struggled to provide true helicopter cover. However get up to flight levels over Manchester 6000-10,000 ft and it was awesome. It was possible to fly a lazy orbit or figure of 8 over the city and cover a huge area. Monitoring divisional channels it was possible to slew the camera with accuracy onto jobs in progress within seconds. The 24 hr operation was usually a force/divisional asset at night and mainly a surveillance asset during the day supporting the specialists. I didnt say other forces didnt operate successfully its just GMP took it to the next level !

Before we took delivery of our own defender we went to Hampshire and “Borrowed” their Defender to train and practice our own tactics so we were up and running for the commonwealt games.

Our operation was seen as a ground breaker which was eyed (and visited)with envy from units (civil & military) from all over the world.

The Defender wasnt perfect but it provided GMP and the wider UK agencies an amazing surveillance asset, it was struck down during austerity cuts to save GMP a £million, a figure which seems tiny by todays government spending.

I was very proud of what we at GMP and all the other ASUs provided to their forces and end users (Bobbies on the ground) that is why I look on in dismay at what remains of Police aviation in this country.

[Cabby]

Re police aviation, how much would it cost to provide a new EC135, or equivelent airframe, for a single police force to operate? (i.e. helicopter, pilot, maintenance, and police officers 24/7.

How many police forces in the UK could afford their own helicopter or plane in 2021 ?

I noticed that Scotland have one police helicopter. How much does it cost to run that operation each year, and is it 24/7 ?

There is a wiki site about police aviation, but no mention of how much it costs to run an air unit in the UK each year?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_aviation_in_the_United_Kingdom

[4468]

I didnt say other forces didnt operate successfully its just GMP took it to the next level !

As I said:

There’s an awful lot of blinkered and largely misplaced hubris in police aviation.

It’s always been that way.

[MAN777]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/night_patrol_i66_9b29012e29294b38a0abcc6b18dc0ba85d832508.jp g
Apologies, couldn't resist. GMPs Defender on night patrol 6000 ft I think. No the prop hadn't stopped it was the camera flash that froze it.

[PANews]

Cabby,

Getting an answer on costs is probably a forlorn expectation.

For recent figures there is no point approaching Police Scotland for instance.... their December 2020 FOI reply to another declared it was a commercial secret, which is understandable as they lease from Babcock and there will be many rival bidders interested in the numbers. Oddly though that same FOI reply declared that the helicopter flew only 132 hours and 50 minutes from 01 January 2020 until 01 November 2020. Numbers that suggest they do not even need a helicopter!

Another reply emanating from Wales quoted £17,000 per flying hour which will make most of us wince.... and the same article stated that sort of number was rubbish. But is it?

It depends on how long your piece of string is. By the time you add the cost of the crew [usually left out of the answer because those numbers are eye watering], the new £2.5M hangar, ground rent, rates and the like the cost of the airframe seems like small change.

Estimates suggest that a new role equipped police helicopter will be about £7.5M, and the difference between two such airframes can be £1M based only on the sensor chosen so that is a pretty woolly estimate. That's if you buy it. If you lease it the first costs goes away but the yearly cost of the airframe the police operator can never own is boosted accordingly. Your 15 year old EC135 is worth virtually nothing but you probably do not see it for a month every 4 months while the maintenance organisation attempts to stop it falling apart. Chugging around in a private EC135 and doing 50 hours a year is a league away from expecting that same helicopter to dash here and there and circle a point on the ground for 1,000 hours a year.

20 years ago you may have been able to put a ball park figure of £1M on each airframe operated and a nominal cross charging rate of £1,000 an hour but even then there were arguments over whether the hourly figure to be charged was £1,000 or should have been £3,000.

Like the operator you will need to decide what is 'cost' before you can possibly answer half the question. The true cost could easily be that £17,000 an hour.

[Cabby]

Cabby,

Getting an answer on costs is probably a forlorn expectation.

For recent figures there is no point approaching Police Scotland for instance.... their December 2020 FOI reply to another declared it was a commercial secret, which is understandable as they lease from Babcock and there will be many rival bidders interested in the numbers. Oddly though that same FOI reply declared that the helicopter flew only 132 hours and 50 minutes from 01 January 2020 until 01 November 2020. Numbers that suggest they do not even need a helicopter!

Another reply emanating from Wales quoted £17,000 per flying hour which will make most of us wince.... and the same article stated that sort of number was rubbish. But is it?

It depends on how long your piece of string is. By the time you add the cost of the crew [usually left out of the answer because those numbers are eye watering], the new £2.5M hangar, ground rent, rates and the like the cost of the airframe seems like small change.

Estimates suggest that a new role equipped police helicopter will be about £7.5M, and the difference between two such airframes can be £1M based only on the sensor chosen so that is a pretty woolly estimate. That's if you buy it. If you lease it the first costs goes away but the yearly cost of the airframe the police operator can never own is boosted accordingly. Your 15 year old EC135 is worth virtually nothing but you probably do not see it for a month every 4 months while the maintenance organisation attempts to stop it falling apart. Chugging around in a private EC135 and doing 50 hours a year is a league away from expecting that same helicopter to dash here and there and circle a point on the ground for 1,000 hours a year.

20 years ago you may have been able to put a ball park figure of £1M on each airframe operated and a nominal cross charging rate of £1,000 an hour but even then there were arguments over whether the hourly figure to be charged was £1,000 or should have been £3,000.

Like the operator you will need to decide what is 'cost' before you can possibly answer half the question. The true cost could easily be that £17,000 an hour.

Thanks PAN,
The figures are much higher than I expected.
I noticed another post a while ago which showed the payments made to NPAS by the different forces, and some were up to the £5k per hour figure.

[J.A.F.O.]

I swear this is true. I just went to the page Benefits of NPAS (https://npas.police.uk/about-us/benefits-npas) (which did exist - I followed an old bookmark) and I got the following message:

The website encountered an unexpected error. Please try again later.

Try it yourself.

[ShyTorque]

Not unexpected by some!

[hargreaves99]

https://www.npas.police.uk/what-we-do/how-we-assist-police-forces

[Pan Euro]

Taken from the NPAS web siteStatement in relation to The Times Article on Friday 19 MarchFriday, 19th March, 2021

T/ACC Scott Bisset, Chief Operating Officer of NPAS, said:

"The aeroplanes are providing support to operational policing as part of a blended fleet which predominantly includes helicopters. They have, and do, operate across both urban and rural areas and whilst based at Doncaster Airport do use other airfields. The aircraft have some limitations which means they cannot operate without restriction at all airfields which was always anticipated. They can however operate in weather conditions which helicopters cannot. Since January 2020 they have been effectively deployed to 1300 incidents supporting police forces across England and Wales.

"Recently, the NPAS National Board commissioned an independent review of the aeroplanes which identified that the aircraft have excellent endurance which make them particularly suitable for policing large public events, conducting missing people searches and prolonged vehicle pursuits. The costs of operating the aeroplanes are approximately a third of that of a helicopter in comparison.

"NPAS is currently restructuring to meet the revised air support requirements of the Police Service which were recently agreed by the National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC) in Autumn of 2020. NPAS remain fully committed to providing a value for money Service to support Forces in keeping the public safe with the support of PCCs, Chiefs and the Home Office. Future collaboration and partnering options will also be explored.

"The original cost of police aviation prior to the formation of NPAS was in the region of £55m (£65m at today’s prices) and NPAS have reduced those costs significantly from the 2012 baseline. NPAS ran an efficiency programme during 2020/21 that has identified further savings. The recent budget set in February 2021 was agreed at £42.5m for England and Wales."


More smoke and mirrors !!!

[Fortyodd2]

".......They can however operate in weather conditions which helicopters cannot........"

Actually that should read "The modified P68 can FLY in weather conditions which helicopters cannot". However, in order to "operate", the sensors attached to the airframe have to be able to see the ground or there is no point in "Flying".

[MightyGem]

The original cost of police aviation prior to the formation of NPAS was in the region of £55m (£65m at today’s prices) and NPAS have reduced those costs significantly from the 2012 baseline.
True, but then we had 33 helicopters and two FW flying around 23,000 hours at an average £1710 per hour. Now we are down to what, 15 aircraft(?) flying 11,500 hours. NPAS went from charging for hours flown to Actioned calls in 2016/17. The year before the average hourly rate was £2400.

[RotaryJ]

Anyone know what's happening with the changing of ownership to all NPAS aircraft?

I was curious about G-POLB's lengthy time away offline, I always check G-INFO to see if anythings changed... to my surprise its displaying 'Potential change of registered ownership in progress' in the 'Registered Owner Details' section and goes on to this:Open aircraft registration casesCase name:Change of Registered OwnershipOpen date:22-Mar-2021Review date:13-Apr-2021
It is displaying the same message for all NPAS aircraft too.

[PANews]

It may turn out to be a major alteration but the entry for G-SUFK suggests that it may simply be a change from the Police and Crime Commissioner to the Chief Constable.

The May 6 elections may be the clue... according to Google .... the Office of PCC (OPCC) will transfer to the Mayoral West Yorkshire Combined Authority. The current registered keeper goes on May 6.

[Coconutty]

I see they are still spouting rubbish like this .....

"Flying at average speeds of 138mph, police air support saves officers on the ground valuable time when it matters."

An Average of 138 "mph" eh ? - There must be times when they go MUCH faster than that then, to achieve the Average. :rolleyes:

Coconutty

[handysnaks]

So…
https://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/policing-and-crime-news/mayor-of-west-yorkshire-seeks-a-new-future-for-the-national-police-air-service-npas/

[OvertHawk]

So to translate:

"We know it's been a fiasco from the start, under our leadership and we know that the other forces are getting ready to pull the plug so we're bailing out so it can fail with someone else's name on it."

[PANews]

The Leader of Epping Forest District Council has written to Commissioner Cressida Dick to object to the Metropolitan Police returning their air operations to Lippitts Hill.

https://www.eppingforestguardian.co.uk/news/19387202.council-opposes-met-polices-return-lippitts-hill-airbase/

Some minor errors in the text.... The Met first used Lippitts Hill in 1967 and built its first facilities there from 1976. The Met ASU was officially launched in November 1980 but was already in being by then. As we know they never wanted to leave there let alone join NPAS.

The council has a 25 year lease contract on the North Weald base with West Yorkshire Police (NPAS) not the Met who continue to own and operate Lippitts Hill.

https://www.eppingforestdc.gov.uk/relocation-of-police-helicopter-base-opposed/


NPAS goes next year making it quite a sticky mess for the Met and the council it seems.

[Cabby]

With the West Yorks mayor giving a years notice to quit as the lead force, are there any favourites to run NPAS in a years time such as Liverpool or Manchester forces?

How many staff work at the NPAS HQ? Will they have to relocate?

[PANews]

When the last creation of NPAS was attempted it was pretty clear that West Yorkshire were the only bidders.

After the caning that West Yorkshire has taken thanks to its operation of NPAS it seems very unlikely that any other police force would again step forward to be so abused. Those 40 plus forces that said 'you must be joking' last time the offer was on the table were the intelligent ones.

Who has the crystal ball to suggest where we go from here?

It will take all the brains in the country [and maybe outside it as well] to suggest a way forward. Even getting them to meet in one place as equals will be a major achievement. And first we have to decide who are the right people!

If I were to suggest any one name as a start there would be an argument by six others stating why that person was the wrong one. There is no clean Mother Teresa figure out there.... or is there?

[handysnaks]

PANews, Although history shows there were no other takers for the job of running NPAS, I believe that in the original 'Chiefs' Meeting following the decision to create NPAS there was another force interested in running the whole thing. However as soon as W Yorks took one pace forward to volunteer. That CC took a subtle step backwards and let them get on with it.

[ShyTorque]

Whoever runs this "RGF" next, I hope they do it more effectively. I find the "Police Interceptors" and similar TV programmes so frustrating to watch. Jobs such as vehicle pursuits having to be called off because they were deemed too dangerous...no helicopter on scene to complete the job whilst allowing the cars to back off...which used to make the situation far, far safer for everyone concerned..... Someone needs locking up over this whole debacle - not just the criminals! :mad:

[Spanish Waltzer]

Shame it can’t be wrapped up in the ongoing UK Government SAR re-tender……just saying 😉

[MightyGem]

A recent Helihub article:
https://helihub.com/2021/06/18/uk-major-changes-ahead-for-national-police-air-service/?fbclid=IwAR3jHZ3KZ8Y4TBcirxJp_eYlkIjbT1LD13A_dks7HMG3h028WU 12Md2moFM

Out with some ex colleagues last night. It just gets worse. Bases being reduced to 12 hours. Bases offline due to lack of aircraft, pilots or TFOs. Pilots being allowed to get their CAA medicals during work time, thereby putting the base offline. One day recently, there was just one NPAS Base operational.

[PANews]

NPAS have put out a government tender for industry to run NPAS and London [separately] as well as provide new airframes.

This was something that was explored a year ago but I am not aware of the interest in any industry feedback.

Aside from the sheer cost of this plan, Howe anyone expects industry to get this up and running in the next 50 weeks escapes me. It took a decade to arrive where we are and I cannot see anyone undoing that little lot in the time allowed. If industry takes it up perhaps it will shut down most of it and restart each element when it can get it to work to their standards.

[gipsymagpie]

NPAS Tender (https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/014354-2021?origin=SearchResults&p=1)
So looks like 7 outside London and a service level based number inside (ie enough helicopters to provide a set level of availability). Similar to current or is that less?

H135T3H/H145D3 pairing has got to be near the front of the queue for this?

​​​

[Thud_and_Blunder]

What an interesting read that tender makes. Down to 7 aircraft outside London? Wow.... just, ...wow.
:yuk:

[Cabby]

The NPAS tender mentions "rotary aircraft".

The NPAS fixed wing p68's which took years to come on line, aren't mentioned anywhere.

Any clues to which 7 aircraft will be left outside of the London area?

[PANews]

The NPAS tender mentions "rotary aircraft".

The NPAS fixed wing p68's which took years to come on line, aren't mentioned anywhere.

Any clues to which 7 aircraft will be left outside of the London area?

There are many unanswered elements in the papers so far released. No mention of the existing airframes at all, that might suggest the plan [it is not yet a tender] is 7 plus Met plus existing fleet however the successful tenderer might wish to operate them.

But of course it is not a plan.

NPAS has produced dozens of plans over the years but none of them has lasted long enough to come to fruition. Until something suggests otherwise I expect that the plan will be whatever industry can live with. Even 7 plus Met (2 + a spare) is going to be a big dent in someones piggy bank. £100M?

[Cabby]

There are many unanswered elements in the papers so far released. No mention of the existing airframes at all, that might suggest the plan [it is not yet a tender] is 7 plus Met plus existing fleet however the successful tenderer might wish to operate them.

But of course it is not a plan.

NPAS has produced dozens of plans over the years but none of them has lasted long enough to come to fruition. Until something suggests otherwise I expect that the plan will be whatever industry can live with. Even 7 plus Met (2 + a spare) is going to be a big dent in someones piggy bank. £100M?

Thanks for the reply PAN.

How many staff members do NPAS employ, and is anyone aware of the payscales?

[PANews]

As we know Annual Reports are scarce and inconsistent in the information given ... but the 2015 version gives a grand total of 340 people directly involved [such as the Strategic Board members, maintenance organisation, PCC would be significant extras].
The numbers from that report state 180 TFOs and 87 pilots.

The 'compact' and less informative 2018 report gives the overall staff numbers as 332. Current Police Officer payscales are going to be variable but an example is given at https://www.polfed.org/norfolk/information/rank-pay-scales/

A lot has happened since the last report from NPAS and it has been promised for months now. I suspect that they may never appear.

[Bravo73]

Down to 7 aircraft outside London? Wow.... just, ...wow.
:yuk:

Out of interest, how many was it pre-NPAS?

[Cabby]

As we know Annual Reports are scarce and inconsistent in the information given ... but the 2015 version gives a grand total of 340 people directly involved [such as the Strategic Board members, maintenance organisation, PCC would be significant extras].
The numbers from that report state 180 TFOs and 87 pilots.

The 'compact' and less informative 2018 report gives the overall staff numbers as 332. Current Police Officer payscales are going to be variable but an example is given at https://www.polfed.org/norfolk/information/rank-pay-scales/

A lot has happened since the last report from NPAS and it has been promised for months now. I suspect that they may never appear.

Thanks PAN, it seems strange that NPAS are a public body, but they don't provide details of the financial costs of the operation?

I wonder how much the senior management are paying themselves?

Not sure who has oversight of the operation, but it sounds like its going to be a very expensive operation for a private company with so many staff involved at the moment.

[helihub]

Where does it say that the plan to acquire 7 helicopters under a fleet replacement program is the whole fleet? Check the wording

the lease or capital purchase of a number of Police Role Equipped Rotary Aircraft as part of a national fleet replacement programme

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Out of interest, how many was it pre-NPAS?
Memory isn't great - I believe it was around 16 rotary/3 fixed-wing in England, 3 in Wales and 1 in Scotland, plus the 3 in London. Stand by for corrections...
Where does it say that the plan to acquire 7 helicopters under a fleet replacement program is the whole fleet? Check the wording
Very sound observation - thanks

[MightyGem]

33 helicopters from 27 bases by 2010. GMP also had a fixed wing and Cheshire and Hampshire may have got rid of theirs by then.

[PANews]

I know we blame the 'management' but the mindless activities on NPAS go far higher than that.

Last November the UK gave France £28M to provide patrols along the French coast so that Migrants could be stopped from making the journey to England. Magically the numbers safely making the journey went through the roof!

Having worked that out the same government department is to pay another £54M to the same French government to provide patrols along the French coast "so that Migrants could be stopped from making the journey to England."

So far £82M has been paid out to France in 8 months. That was about double the UK police annual budget for air support that was set to be cut by creating NPAS. And that does not include the millions pumped into UK SAR to get them patrolling the English Channel for half the day.

These people need to go to business school.

[[email protected]]

Both of which come under the same inept minister's responsibility

[backtothebeat]

nothing is new in police work.
I posted this almost a decade ago. .!




https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/556712-uk-npas-discussion-thread-mk-5-a-post8874796.html#post8874796

[J.A.F.O.]

PANews That's absolutely staggering, the fact that we would pay France - who don't care if migrants leave their country to come here, in fact would possibly welcome it - and then because that didn't work throw more at it seems almost inconceivably stupid.

Just in case you haven't seen the "Must Read Tomes" thread, I just thought I'd put this here. I hope no-one minds.

My book about my time flying on police helicopters was published this week, there have been lots of great reviews and I figure that people on here might enjoy it.

[MightyGem]

So, it’s that time of year again. Here are the stats for 2020/21. Overall, costs have increased by £1,872,147(not as much as 2019/20’s jump of £3.3M and Actioned Calls are down by 315(again not as much as 2019/20’s drop of 3855).

As always there are winners and losers. the biggest loser seems to be Bedfordshire. Their costs have increased year on year for the past 3 years while their Actioned Calls have gone down from 393 in 2018/19 to 188 in 2020/21.

Cheshire haven’t fared so well either. Paying $0.4M for less than half the Calls of last year, giving them a cost per call of £6050. However, Cambridgeshire top the cost per call chart at £9214.

Mind you, the cost per call that I arrive at is something of a mystery given the wide range in costs. From Cambridges’s £9214 down to Lincolnshire £1138. Especially given that talking to an NPAS pilot who said that the Forces get charged a flat rate of £2500 for a call, regardless of whether the aircraft is there for 5 minutes or an hour. Obviously other things are taken into account.

Hours flown by NPAS bases in support of Forces is up on 2019/20, 13,139 compared to 11,545. That’s largely due to the fact that I was only given 3.5 for the Met(North Weald) for 2019/20.

Anyway, make of the numbers what you will.

Oh, as for NPAS Annual Reports?? A quote from my latest FOI request:
"Please note that NPAS no longer produce an Annual Report.”


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1134x1348/npas_2020_21_58590219c61222d0045c11432398f6037e3f6380.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/660x756/screenshot_2021_07_13_at_22_08_10_c3264c5bb045c7cbf7e2667699 ebc6156a768be2.png

[PANews]

Thank you MG.

Certainly some inconsistencies there..... that would make it difficult to write and sign off a sensible Annual Report I guess. If in doubt.... avoid it!

Based on those figures it is evident that in the past year the fixed wing unit has almost doubled the number of hours it flies each year. To put that in perspective though sorties are far longer than those of the rotary wing fleet and other bases where only a single helicopter is based are exceeding 1,000 hours pa. I guess, if it were properly resourced, we should expect the fixed wing fleet of four to be flying at least 3,000 hours by now and taking the pressure off the older helicopter fleet.

Some hope. Just when the P68R has found its feet [it took long enough] it seems the management has lost faith in the project and now there arn't enough pilots to get them in the air regularly enough to ramp up the hours and fill the gaps caused by the growing age of the rotary fleet.

Its like a stuck record.. stuck record .. stuck record..

Who knows one day we may be able to write about other news that is uplifting and smiley.... Not yet awhile I fear.

[garlichopper]

Thank you MG.

Certainly some inconsistencies there..... that would make it difficult to write and sign off a sensible Annual Report I guess. If in doubt.... avoid it!

Based on those figures it is evident that in the past year the fixed wing unit has almost doubled the number of hours it flies each year. To put that in perspective though sorties are far longer than those of the rotary wing fleet and other bases where only a single helicopter is based are exceeding 1,000 hours pa. I guess, if it were properly resourced, we should expect the fixed wing fleet of four to be flying at least 3,000 hours by now and taking the pressure off the older helicopter fleet.

Some hope. Just when the P68R has found its feet [it took long enough] it seems the management has lost faith in the project and now there arn't enough pilots to get them in the air regularly enough to ramp up the hours and fill the gaps caused by the growing age of the rotary fleet.

Its like a stuck record.. stuck record .. stuck record..

Who knows one day we may be able to write about other news that is uplifting and smiley.... Not yet awhile I fear.

I follow the fixed wing on trackers regularly and it seems to have moved from a national asset to covering the North East region only around March/April of this year. Apart from the G20 tasking they have not flown on any active incidents outside of the Yorkshire counties and the North East area so there must be a new agreement in place when previously they were tasked UK wide to cover like a rotary asset.

It seems at the moment the Carr Gate helicopter is working the late/overnight shift and the fixed wing covers during the day up to midnight in the region. Something has to change as just one out of the four planes is ever active at any one time and is still not a 24hr asset after all of this time.

[MightyGem]

I seem to recall reading/hearing that when asked, the North East Forces were the only ones willing to pay for the fixed wing.

[J.A.F.O.]

Just in case anyone's missed it, the book is back in stock.

Above the Law (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/583441-aviation-books-must-read-tomes-8.html#post11093902)

Amazon

[MightyGem]

Some good stuff by Bryn Elliot in the latest Police Aviation News:
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/304PANAugust2021.pdf

Also scroll down to the Letters To The Editor section.

[tigerfish]

My Story "A long and Winding Beat" is available Through ISBN No 978-1-5272-8608-5 or via [email protected] it charts among other things the development of UK Police Aviation prior to the dreaded NPAS!

TF

[J.A.F.O.]

My Story "A long and Winding Beat" is available Through ISBN No 978-1-5272-8608-5 or via [email protected] it charts among other things the development of UK Police Aviation prior to the dreaded NPAS!

TF

Hiya TF - Amazon and Waterstones both show it as unavailable, so you have an e-mail incoming.

[MightyGem]

In the continuing downward spiral, some NPAS Bases were due to reduce from 24 hour ops down to 12 hours, from 15:00 to 03:00. The following quote is from September's PAN:
The few remaining 24-hour bases operate two 12 hour shifts based around 0700 – 1900. The new shift planned for the reduced availability units was set at 1500 - 0300 daily and after a suitable period of consul- tation the police staff, the TFOs, work those hours and the base managers 0900 - 1700. The intransigent CAA decided that the pilots were not going to be working the 3 o’clock shift, the pilots would not be chang- ing their hours. They would continue to arrive at work as usual at 7am or 7pm. However, in a fast moving storyline it seems that they have managed to finally negotiate a face saving change of hours for the 12 hour units of 1300-0100, to commence this month.


You can read more here:
http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/305PANSeptember2021.pdf

Rearrange the following into a meaningful sentence. Brewery, up, a, couldn't, piss, organise, in, a.

[RotaryJ]

So Lippitts Hill is back...and there was one left. Such a big Hangar for one little G-POLD and former Boreham crew. Quick to revive a base location which is no longer needed, but when it come's to revival of actually needed bases like in the North West and Midlands where they are constantly having base availability issues... it is just quietly brushed under the carpet. The North West once had 6 bases and they've more than halved it to two, but only seems like Barton is the only one going now... is Hawarden dead? Not seen any activity from them in what seems like forever. The bases in Midlands being halved, Notts PCC fed up of poor service Nottinghamshire is receiving, but is another additional base active from 1300 - 0100 for the North Mids really going to be that beneficial? It's like NPAS think criminals only come out at specific times only and the rest of the time they are tucked up in bed. The midlands has a lot of urban space to cover to cut the bases to two is just inadequate. I'm not even bothering discussing about North East my local region as there is just no hope or certainty anymore. I don't even know what hour's Carr Gate operates anymore, Newcastle barely even fly anymore and as for Doncaster another wasted space would have been better keeping a Helicopter based at Humberside G-POLU maybe? If it's not dead. The South West are the only ones that seem like they are winning, all bases having the newest batch of the fleet and operating smoothly... it's not bad for some.

[SWBKCB]

Newcastle barely even fly anymore

Seem to be flying most days??

[RotaryJ]

Seem to be flying most days??

I mean as to how they used to fly before NPAS.

[J.A.F.O.]

If anyone knows who came up with the NPAS song to the tune of American Pie, please pass on my congratulations and thanks.

[jumpseater]

I’ll have a fiver on NPAS fixed wing coming under 2Excel ‘special missions’ operations in the foreseeable future.


Transfer of assets and staff, and then operating as a sub contractor with Police staff/observers seconded. Primary base still DSA but with temporary tactical remote basing as required.

[MightyGem]

is Hawarden dead?
They are one of the bases that have gone down to 12 hours.

[Cabby]

Heard from a pilot at the local airport, that the current base map may look different when West Yorkshire step down from running the show.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_Air_Service

Will Carr Gate dissapear with it being so close to two other bases?

Any news on who will be taking over from West Yorks?

[ShyTorque]

Any news on who will be taking over from West Yorks?

Who would want to? I'd suggest it's a poisoned chalice.

[PANews]

Who would want to? I'd suggest it's a poisoned chalice.

Not only poison for a police force (sorry Service) to take on but also very much poison for any element of industry considering taking on the project.

It is easy to complain, and I do, but some alternative tactics that might work need to be considered. IF no operator of a NPAS neo is found and no section of industry feels able to stump up eye watering amounts to operate an oversized and failed operation that big money ticket may have to be further dismantled beyond delete The Met.

In theory this takes us back to before the start of NPAS. That underlines the level of failure NPCC are faced with, let us not forget where the whole badly thought through idea came from.

Police forces are gifted back their original airframes and bases and they either make individual bids to the Home Office for funding or to the potential industry bidders with a view to starting smaller more manageable operations, with or without new airframes, individual to start with and maybe as consortiums further down the road. You can probably still have central training and a pool of pilots and TFOs but there may be savings derived from getting rid of the management.

It may be that if the NPCC cannot get their act together and industry cannot afford to bail out the giant, fragmentation is the only way forward.

[handysnaks]

I would like to make a point on your ‘where the idea came from, which is invariably overlooked in the effort to heap scorn on NPAS and W Yorks. (and this is not an attempt to defend either organisation). The idea for a single, national service came from a group of UEO’s who regularly attended the ACPO air support committee in lieu of their respective force or consortium ACPO officers, (who should have attended, but saw no career advantage in doing so, as it was too niche).
They were told to find a cheaper way of doing things ( and if I recall correctly, were seriously advised NOT to look at a national structure, as it would be too difficult to implement).
In spite of that they felt (and therefore recommended), that if they could make ‘X’ savings by regionalising, then they could ‘obviously’ make greater savings by nationalising! So we perhaps need to look a little closer to home. ‘We’ did this to ourselves.

[ShyTorque]

They were told to find a cheaper way of doing things ( and if I recall correctly, were seriously advised NOT to look at a national structure, as it would be too difficult to implement).
In spite of that they felt (and therefore recommended), that if they could make ‘X’ savings by regionalising, then they could ‘obviously’ make greater savings by nationalising! So we perhaps need to look a little closer to home. ‘We’ did this to ourselves.

Some forces already worked and funded jointly and also provided an ad hoc service to a force without their own ASU. It worked well.

[handysnaks]

I am more than aware of how it worked Shy.😊
There were a number of forces who participated in consortia air units, who were quite clear that once the austerity cuts kicked in, their participation in air support was going to end. I think a lot of us connected with air support at the time, thought we might move to a number of multi-aircraft/ multi-base regions. Knowing that eventually those regions would drop one or more bases and one or more aircraft. But the savings would be spread out to all forces in the region and the drop in service understood and accepted by all forces in the region. Once the decision to have a national service was approved, the die was cast and here we are. :ugh:

[The Nr Fairy]

As someone who lives in Wiltshire, the loss of the joint air ambulance / police asset was a blow. We do have a good service from the Air Ambulance, but the only time I've heard NPAS in the skies about Pewsey is when there was a car chase involved. And correct me if I'm wrong but the closest is either Benson, Almondsbury or Bournemouth now ? How do those locations affect the response times, especially if the closest choice is already committed?

[ShyTorque]

Ironically, the unit I had most in mind was North Midlands and that is now an area with one of the largest gaps in “local” cover.

[handysnaks]

And even more ironically, their two forces were pretty much top of the list to dispense with air support if NPAS didn’t happen.

[ShyTorque]

Those two forces understood the benefits of pooled resources so it’s understandable that they wanted to take it a step further. Unfortunately, as we know, the whole thing was bungled at National level.

[garlichopper]

The fixed wing plane has been venturing out of the Yorkshire & North East area a few times this week, so perhaps something has changed there finally with it's restriction to Yorkshire & North East calls. It seems ludicrous to restrict it's operating area when it's available and resources are stretched so thinly.

[MightyGem]

If anyone knows who came up with the NPAS song to the tune of American Pie, please pass on my congratulations and thanks.
Sounds interesting. Where can I listen???? :}

[black.beard]

I’ll have a fiver on NPAS fixed wing coming under 2Excel ‘special missions’ operations in the foreseeable future.


Transfer of assets and staff, and then operating as a sub contractor with Police staff/observers seconded. Primary base still DSA but with temporary tactical remote basing as required.

I'll take that bet. Although since you only stake a fiver, it suggests that you're hardly brimming with confidence.Wink If 2Excel take this on then be prepared for a drop in availability based upon the record with their Piper Navajos, failing to meet contractual requirements for the UK Coastal contract (which will not have escaped notice) - indeed a strong rumour that they have subbed out some of the work to the previous provider.

Some of the reason(s) why the FW has had a difficult birth centres large around a) NPAS being unable to organise a pish-up in a brewery b) a Rotary focused organisation and the FW is a thorn in their side c) Egos and Empire building of several CC/DCC's/etc, p1ssing in the pot within the respective Police Forces Districts

[PANews]

I recall that when the tender for the maintenance for the fixed wing was decided by NPAS they rejected 2Excel in favour of Gama even though the former was located next door at Doncaster. A number of snide remarks in the 2Excel hangar over that at the time but, if we lose all sense of reality and assume that NPAS knew what they were doing, at that time they thought 2Excel were not up for the job.
It seems Black Beard has noted a lack of performance that others had not in the 2Excel hangar. Maybe, just maybe, NPAS got that bit right.
I will now go and sit and darkened room......

[PANews]

Well done Cabby.

No sign of that yet as a standard Kent Police Press Release.... I will have to ask them. It seems though that Acting Supt Wenlock is the man who makes certain things happen.... in one set of 2021 minutes I found that .....Volunteering in Kent Police

T/Supt Wenlock provided an overview of the presentation showing the innovations in Citizens in Policing, Special Constabulary, Speedwatch, Community Policing Volunteers, Volunteer Cadets and Policing Support Volunteers.

So he has a track record.

And so did someone else who was a Temporary Chief Inspector in Kent Police if I recall correctly. Watson was the name and he was deep into the South Coast Project of BAE Herti light UAVs over the English Channel a decade ago. He was also 'involved' in running the less than exciting Kent Police ASU [a couple of Cessna's] and then he went on to serve as GOD with NPAS, ahe looked after the ground aspects of the organisation. Although a non-aviator he made some pretty important decisions on fixed wing if my information is correct, before moving on to making cakes in retirement.

There is a worrying thread of repetition running through this storyline and Cabby could be right that this might be the next NPAS SE.

Strange really. For decades now ACPO and the NPCC have totally frowned on the activity being portrayed here. SkyWatch and its offshoots have been shunned, castigated and denigrated for offering to do exactly this kind of operation. Funny how everything flips back to the thoughtless schemes of ACPO and NPCC.

[PANews]

This could run and run. Well for a few days at least.

It seems that in this world of controlled news this one slipped through the net and the authorities are not too happy. The Kent Press Release and images are pretty much word for word as given in the local paper, a total paste job. But even though it is supposed to be 'on hold' Kent Police sent me the press release direct at lunchtime.

I hope they do not get their CPVs mixed up with their LDVs, shades of 1940, or every police station will be inundated with volunteers for the Home Guard air section!!!!

[Sloppy Link]

I suspect the CAA will have a view….

[MightyGem]

Candidate pilots must hold a private or commercial pilot licence appropriate to the type of aircraft they will fly – whether Group A, microlight, gyrocopter, helicopter or Group B.
Isn't that fairly obvious? :hmm:

[Fuzz Burner]

You might have thought Kent Police would have consulted the experts before entering into this venture.......or indeed anyone with the slightest knowledge of police aviation in the UK. They would then know that this is a non-starter!

[Fortyodd2]

Fuzz Burner,
Clearly you don't understand - All Senior Police officers are experts in everything simply by being appointed as such. Simply by asking for help and guidance from anybody else they spoil their chances of promotion or an OBE/QPM.
Their Golden Rule on being given any large scale project is to find out who has the knowledge and expertise in that particular field - and keep them well away.
Want an example of this? Look no further than NPAS - or Airwave, or it's replacement.

[212man]

If you are not a qualified pilot you can still sign up by acting as an observer, partnering a CPV pilot and helping them to monitor incidents from the air.

What could possibly go wrong?

[ShyTorque]

I hate to think the outcome of a volunteer pilot having an accident while flying on behalf of a police force.

[aeromys]

I suspect the CAA will have a view….
When a certain very wealthy Special Constable in Surrey attempted to set up a Air Support Unit crewed by himself and carefully selected Special Constables, using his own Gazelle, he was quickly reminded that he would have to fully comply with a PAOM and the idea quickly fell flat.

[Democritus]

....Isn't there some other volunteer pilot group doing the same thing elsewhere.. Am sure I've seen it mentioned.......
Yep - Civil Air Support, formerly known as UK Civil Air Patrol, been on the go since 2000.

https://www.civilairsupport.com/

[PANews]

Congratulations due to the two-man NPAS team [Paul Watts and Pete Botchett] who presented the 'Future of police aviation in the UK' to a full house audience at Helitech this morning. They managed to turn a pretty well worn pigs ear into something not quite a silk purse on the basis of not a lot and a very dated video.

The future it seems is BVLOS drones to replace the fixed wing fleet and eventually the rotary wing. Subject to a suitable type capable of Sense and Avoid [that so far has not been demonstrated as a done deal].

Unfortunately the type is not identified, but the RAF are about to take delivery of a nice thing with the comforting name Protector which I guess is about £100M a go, but NPAS will have to fund the upgrade of it to twin engines of course to meet the current requirements.
Another FIKI I guess.
There is of course one other option that already has twin engines, the Portuguese Tekever, but I am not sure that it would be too welcome over my house from reports received.

I do think that Protector RG Mk 1 (MQ-9B) is a much more cosy name than the earlier General Atomics Reaper (MQ-9A) and Predator... Ahhhhh. The police would further smooth out the name and perhaps call it a Cressida....

[PANews]

I do not understand the question Cabby.

Civil Air Support operates using civil aircraft of various types offered in support of the emergency services. The crews are PPL and CPL with observers they select as worthy. The pilots are often the same people as might fly you to LAX or Bahrain flying their own precious machines on their day off. Alternatives are ex-military, transport, fighter, SAR, police and air ambulance pilots again on their day off, or in retirement, offering a service [often for free] to transport bloods and samples or in the case of Kent Police to report on the view from the sky.

Where do spotters feature? role. Many of our pilots are highly experienced, ex-military or from a commercial aviation background.

[black.beard]

Congratulations due to the two-man NPAS team [Paul Watts and Pete Botchett] who presented the 'Future of police aviation in the UK' to a full house audience at Helitech this morning. They managed to turn a pretty well worn pigs ear into something not quite a silk purse on the basis of not a lot and a very dated video.

The future it seems is BVLOS drones to replace the fixed wing fleet and eventually the rotary wing. Subject to a suitable type capable of Sense and Avoid [that so far has not been demonstrated as a done deal].
a....

Would guessed that Drones may take over some police aviation roles but I can not see this occurring in the near future. Indeed what does a BVLOS drone offer over the current FW set-up? Would assume that more rotary assets would go before FW simply because a) they're cheaper to buy and operate. b) They're much newer therefore less maintenance /flying hr

[tigerfish]

It all comes back to what is Police Air Support for? The prevention and detection of crime, and the prosecution of offenders against the peace. Prior to NPAS the 32 odd Police Helicopters were doing a pretty good job of that. Vehicle and street crime was down and an officer in trouble could expect top cover and support very quickly. Yes there were one or two areas that were behind in that but not too many. By 2008 UK Police Air support was one of the best in the world for effectiveness and immediacy. Then NPAS happened and it all turned to rats. The fleet decimated, bases closed, aircraft had so far to fly that they were usually too late to be of any use.
The once effective operational tool became unavailable for most incidents.
But even today it still all comes down to money or lack of it! Is it the case that saving life and property is less important than saving money? The accountant wins?
The real shame is that NPAS could have been so good. By delivering operational Police Air Support on a Regional basis, and using the National body to bulk purchase fuel, training delivery, bulk equipment Pilots etc, money could have been saved, and effectiveness improved. But no the only mantra was save shed loads of money and virtually destroy what had been achieved. With that the only consideration from the outset, UK Police Air support was always going to end up dead in the water.

TF

[MightyGem]

Just been watching Doncaster's UEO/Base Manager on ITV's The Chase. He and the team beat The Chaser to win £3000 each.

[PANews]

Didn't they do well.... but it was £5,000 towards a trip to Italy [dunno when though!].

[MightyGem]

but it was £5,000
Yes, it was. Typo. :O

[PANews]

There are many times, far too many times, when it seems NPAS bring the world crashing down on its multiple heads through not thinking.

A few days ago The Guardian ran a story on how NPAS were seeking to operate drones at low level over the heads of the people of this country. The paper pointed out that Civil Libertarians were up in arms about the revelation. Now this morning they have run broadly the same story stating that.....Two Labour peers have demanded greater parliamentary scrutiny of police plans to use surveillance cameras mounted on drones after it emerged that forces across England and Wales could deploy the technology. Shami Chakrabarti, the former head of the civil rights advocacy group Liberty, has tabled an amendment to the police bill that would require the home secretary to approve the use of new “weapons, surveillance equipment or investigatory technology”.

All this results from an exercise they ran with industry asking about the capabilities of cameras in drones. The story was spoken of at he recent Helitech presentation at Excel London last month. It was not controversial and it simply laid out the parameters most manned airborne helicopters/fixed wing work to in terms of altitude. They added drone to the mix. NPAS do not fly drones, but they have this dream that they will one day and that they will operate them out of bases BVLOS.

They need to be forgetting all this tosh - it is just winding up people in civil liberties and they are mainstream politicians these days and so have the ability to vote down the new funds they need - and getting on with sorting out todays problems and operating a new fleet of aircraft.

Many in the drone industry see a workable BVLOS operations as being at least 5 years away and probably 20 years in the wake of public distrust of the aircraft industry post Boeing 737MAX.

[MightyGem]

Typical left wing reaction. BVLOS operations? Just a dream.

[handysnaks]

Two labour peers is hardly worth getting your knickers in a twist over MG, and I wouldn’t knock the left wing too much, just take a look at what the right wing are currently doing. They deserve much more of your concern.
When I read the press reports of the NPAS release, I felt that the reporters had misunderstood what BVLOS meant and seemed to think that the onboard systems would be able to ‘see’ beyond visual line of sight, (a much more oppressive idea), rather than the the whole package could be controlled beyond line of sight.
notwithstanding that, I’d double your 5 years unless there is a big change in airspace management (or global warming gives us 24/7 CAVOK.

[Fortyodd2]

What you must understand is that, in Senior Police Officer Land, the earth is flat, the sky is always clear, the radios always work, the fuel is everlasting, maintenance is never required and the crew, as well as being psychic, never go sick or take leave.
So, from their point of view, why is it so hard???

[MightyGem]

notwithstanding that, I’d double your 5 years
Not my comment, handy. :E

[MightyGem]

Yes, Hogan-Howe.

[MightyGem]

NPAS Tender (https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/014354-2021?origin=SearchResults&p=1)
So looks like 7 outside London and a service level based number inside (ie enough helicopters to provide a set level of availability). Similar to current or is that less?

H135T3H/H145D3 pairing has got to be near the front of the queue for this?

​​​
It would seem that the 7 aircraft outside of London are to be in addition to those that NPAS are operating at the moment as they have realised that after all the cuts, they now don't have enough to provide a decent service. :ugh:

[J.A.F.O.]

It would seem that the 7 aircraft outside of London are to be in addition to those that NPAS are operating at the moment as they have realised that after all the cuts, they now don't have enough to provide a decent service. :ugh:

If only someone could have seen that coming and warned them. I'm sure they'd have listened to people with decades of operational experience rather than deciding that they knew better.

[tigerfish]

Its a bit Ironic that I lost my job in 2011 for daring to predict the result of the NPAS cuts!

TF

[PANews]

They ignored every dissenting voice and Tigerfish was just one of many. The other dissenting voices, also people with years of aviation experience, were simply sent back to division, to pound the beat or plan other things, for the rest of their service on one pretext or another. Tigerfish was unlucky in that he was contracted to work for a company with far too much to lose when it came to keeping certain senior police officers happy. It was easy to let him go.

That's life.

There are fortunately other ways of regularly cooking the NPAS goose but I just wish they would get their act together and take the future of UK air policing out of the gutter once and for all.

.

[tigerfish]

Fully accept your comments Bryn. But the truth is that it could have been so much better! The concept of a National Police Air Wing was exactly the way to go. The ability to standardise training, engineering support , manpower and the fleet could have saved a great deal of money, the fleet size was about right as it was, but would have been made more effective by some re locations to give better coverage. BUT operationally it needed to be delivered on a Regional Control basis not solely from West Yorkshire. The reduction in fleet numbers catastrophic - The remaining aircraft had too far to fly to reach most incidents and as a result were not effective in their primary task of the prevention and detection of crime and the prosecution of offenders against the peace!
So bad did it become that control rooms stopped asking for the useless response. Yet prior to NPAS many an officer in trouble could expect top cover in a very short time. By 2008 the UK had one of the best air support capability of any Police Service in the developed world.
The way NPAS was rolled out destroyed all that in quite a short time!

TF

[MightyGem]

By 2008 the UK had one of the best air support capability of any Police Service in the developed world.
The way NPAS was rolled out destroyed all that in quite a short time!
Hear, hear!! :D

[Coconutty]

One of the other factors resulting in the reduction of service to Officers on the ground, was the removal of the ability of those Officers to contact the Air Crew directly, even if they could physically see one of the Fleet passing overhead ! Prior to NPAS commencing, the Midlands Regional forces ( West Midlands, West Mercia, Staffordshire, Derbyshire, Northamptonshire, Nottinghamshire, Leicester and Warwickshire ) had ALL of their Officers Airwave Radios ( no longer limited geographically like the previous UHF and VHF radio systems ) programmed with a single Air Unit "Hailing Channel", ( Known as "Talkgroup 88" ) which each of the four Midlands Air Unit crews ( West Midlands, Central Counties, North Midlands and East Midlands ) would monitor both at Base, and while airborne, and liaise using it. All requests were assessed by those Duty Air Crews and a response ( where appropriate ) was agreed and provided by the nearest available aircraft. This was extremely efficient, provided a fast response, and inspired confidence in those "end users". NPAS removed that facility and required all requests to be routed to their new Control Room, meaning that an Officer on the Ground had to : Alert their own Control Room and provide details of the requirement, that local Control room had to forward the request to the NPAS Control Room, the Task request had to be analysed and vetted by someone at the NPAS Control Room to determine if the request was viable. If it was the NPAS Control room staff had to assess which was the nearest / most suitable aircraft to deploy to the scene, then contact the relevant Air Unit, pass details of the request, location etc. to them and deploy them, as well as arranging / advising on the Communications to be used. THEN the Aircraft would deploy to the incident. This obviously created an additioanl delay in the end response, a delay that was NOT factored in to the original plans and "20 minute response circles" sold to the UK Police forces, which made a flawed assumption that at the moment of any request for Air Support, the Aircraft that ( might ) be deployed, was already travelling at 120 Knots ! This inevitable delay resulted in Officers on the ground losing confidence that if they requested Air Support they would receive it in a timley manner, and quickly enough to be effective. Often Officers did not / do not bother to call, due to a perception / the reality that it would usually take too long for the response to be of any benefit. NPAS of course can demonstrate how they have "improved effectiveness" by reducing the demand for Air Support. <Banging Head on the Wall Emoji ).

[tigerfish]

NPAS has proved to be an unmitigated disaster as a tool for operational Police Air Support. Yes it is available for some pre planned operations, and some extended and ongoing major incidents, but unlike pre NPAS days it is no longer available as top cover and intelligence gathering for sudden and often risky situations involving officers on the ground. The establishment of NPAS in the way that it was, let the operational Police Officer down.

TF

[ShyTorque]

I’d go further and say that it’s a National scandal.

[PANews]

Unfortunately the people who might be able to remedy the situation in NPAS are difficult to address. Places like Rotorheads, published books and PAN are not really in the public domain - they are places where we choose to go. And by experience we know that the people who find that they are being criticised might go once but in most cases would not choose to go back! They simply ignore the subject, there is a pension or promotion to be considered.

Even letters to your local MP, government ministers and newspapers are fighting for space with other agendas (and there are plenty of those now) and simply not yet making their mark. How long has it taken to get half decent dialogue on the Channel Migrants issue? The current governmental chatter owes its existence to a lot of deaths - but it will likely peter out as soon as something new comes along or the winter weather closes down the human traffic across the sea.

But, that is not to say that the campaign to get NPAS remodelled should cease, it has been a long road and I suspect it will continue with little return for a long time yet. The newly post of Head of Futures and Innovation is clearly the way for NPAS to proceed with, now they are seeking to employ Mystic Meg to work out what to do in the future, even though they have yet to clarify the past and the present! That £68K salary would be far more useful spent on returning PBH to the fleet! All I am waiting for is for Linked-In to suggest that it is just the job for me!

[Evil Twin]

In the end, the last people that should be in charge of spending public money on anything. Are the people that are spending public money on everything. I'll qualify that by saying I have worked in both local government and law enforcement

[J.A.F.O.]

If Amazon with their billions have put a halt on their BVLOS research then what hope does some West Yorkshire Police employee have? It's fantasy - at least for the next decade - to pretend that this some way covers for the huge, inexcusable, gaps that have been created in air support cover over the last decade. It's Wizard of Oz stuff, they need to employ a man behind a curtain who can conjure up an illusion of competence.

[MightyGem]

It would seem that negotiations are well under way for a new base at The Reserve Forces’ and Cadets’ Association for the North West of England(NW RFCA) firing range at Altcar, just south of Formby and just a stone's throw from Merseyside's old base at FAR Woodvale.

[PANews]

Firing range? Now there is a thought!

Several people we could line up for firing.

[Fortyodd2]

That's Nice :rolleyes:
At least the "Scallies" won't have to travel quite so far to attack it...............................

[MightyGem]

That's Nice :rolleyes:
At least the "Scallies" won't have to travel quite so far to attack it...............................
Saw more action in two minutes than in 24 years in the Army that evening. :eek:

[PANews]

The attractiveness of the new post of Head of Futures and Innovation is apparently not going too well.

First announced in November it had a closing date of December 5.

On December 7 an NPAS Tweet appeared to announce that the date had been extended by ten days. When the official version appeared the date was moved to December 24.

If, as it appears, the post is not attracting aerospace professionals we may well see it move again before year end. Someone in a high place clearly does not appreciate that a true aerospace professional may not be sold on the airy fairy job description no matter how many times the timeline is tweaked.

[Fortyodd2]

Perhaps Tigerfish ought to apply...................................;)

I know, hat, coat, leaving now.....

[tigerfish]

15 years ago I might have done!

TF

[PANews]

15 years ago I might have done!

TF
it would not have ended well!

The opportunity for those with knowledge to use free will for the common good is sadly absent from the organisation and support from on high is also a missing commodity.

Simply because almost no one knows what they are doing and people without the assurance of knowledge are introverted and defensive.

still no news on which organisation is to replace West York’s Police in 5 months time…. Just one decision they seem to find difficulty in making (public).

[RotaryJ]

Any news on if G-POLU (G-XMII) will be re-joining the fleet anytime soon? Seems like the old bird has been forgotten about, whilst HQ gloats on about aircraft unavailability and wanting to sell the planes, and them having nothing left as cover for poor availability of rotary aircraft... there's a perfectly good aircraft catching dust which could join EMID and TVHB!! This is what I don't understand about the Wakefield Mafia!!

[helihub]

RotaryJ POLU would need a significant amount of work to bring it to the equipped standard of the others in the fleet, and a CofA. My guess would be "there's no budget for that". It was last used as a testbed aircraft for an AHUK project afaik, but that was a fair time back