View Full Version : Helicopter down in South Tirol
jimf671
30th Dec 2020, 18:53
This came up on a mountain rescue FB group.
5 POB, 2 taken to hospital with minor injuries. Not much more known.
https://www.suedtirolnews.it/chronik/zwei-verletzte-bei-hubschrauberabsturz-im-sarntal
ApolloHeli
30th Dec 2020, 19:35
This came up on a mountain rescue FB group.
5 POB, 2 taken to hospital with minor injuries. Not much more known.
https://www.suedtirolnews.it/chronik/zwei-verletzte-bei-hubschrauberabsturz-im-sarntal
Just a correction based off your linked article - it states two occupants sustained minor injuries, five further occupants were uninjured, according to "Alto Adige".
That makes 7 POB - 2 minor injuries, 5 uninjured which seems incredible given that it looks like the skids are pointing upwards....
Nubian
30th Dec 2020, 20:51
Just a correction based off your linked article - it states two occupants sustained minor injuries, five further occupants were uninjured, according to "Alto Adige".
That makes 7 POB - 2 minor injuries, 5 uninjured which seems incredible given that it looks like the skids are pointing upwards....
Likely a 350 upside down... if 7 POB, then a bench front pax seating... Heli-skiing?
Does not look like a CRFS fitted machine, judging by the fire!
KiwiNedNZ
30th Dec 2020, 21:17
From a friend over there - was a private rich guy from Italy who had a full load of pax AND a skidoo as external load at the same time.
ngfan
30th Dec 2020, 21:44
There is one known operator of a black H125 located in the valley of the mishap (Sarntal)...wonder if it is his chopper..anyone with the reg.? Cannot find it in local news reports so far.
aerolearner
30th Dec 2020, 21:55
According to the Italian AAI Authority (ANSV (https://ansv.it/incidente-ad-un-elicottero-in-alto-adige-2/)):
AS 350B3 I-LGLG (https://www.dgualdo.it/regs19/ilglg.htm)
ngfan
30th Dec 2020, 22:08
Thanks, couldn't find the info on the ANSV page somehow...yes, that's the black H125. Owner and (most probably) pilot owns a business in Sarntal incl. a PC-12 along with hangar and landing strip (quite a challenging approach into that airfield). Seems to be a six-seater H125. Aircraft flying incl. handover at Airbus Marseille in 2019 can be found on Youtube...
Glad all onboard walked away with little or no injuries...
ApolloHeli
30th Dec 2020, 22:08
Back of the envelope maths with 1400kg EEW, 7 pax (80kgs each), an hour of fuel (150kg), and 280kg for the external load puts it at 2390kg.
Not sure what altitude it occurred at but here's the HOGE data in case someone else has that info. I'm sure this one's gonna be performance / planning* related.
Glad everyone's OK.
*skills / airmanship
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1420x2000/as350_b3e_rfm_hoge_page_001_dcde28a4d76de9c03b92f65c4073c602 8149fcd2.jpg
aerolearner
30th Dec 2020, 22:16
Uhmmm... the same ANSV press release (supposed to be an official and the most authoritative source) states that there were 5 occupants only, not 5+2 as implies in the newspaper article.:confused:
ngfan
30th Dec 2020, 22:39
The local fire department reports on its FB page of five occupants like ANSV does.
ngfan
30th Dec 2020, 22:47
In the news pics the skidoo can be seen sitting right in front of the wreckage. Local medevac helicopter H145 "Pelikan 2" flew in to attend to the injured.
manamale
30th Dec 2020, 23:29
Wonder if that wire in the background had anything to do with it!
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/reinswald4_ede4f97df71cf9c1dfd2cd300b1d4e3be7b3eb47.jpeg
nomorehelosforme
31st Dec 2020, 00:36
From a friend over there - was a private rich guy from Italy who had a full load of pax AND a skidoo as external load at the same time.
Has anyone heard of carrying a skidoo as external load and many pax on an AS 350? Add a little bit of mountain weather, potential wires and other unknowns what could possibly go wrong?.... wonder was the rich guy from Italy the pilot or the one putting demands on the pilot/pilots....hopefully not another case of peer pressure causing a disaster.
ngfan
31st Dec 2020, 10:50
Confirmed 5 pax. "Rich guy from Italy" is quite a stereotype. I guess anyone who can afford to own a plane or copter is rich in most people's terms (he owns a PC-12 and a Kodiak as well). I am pretty sure the owner who runs a family business in Sarntal was the pilot flying so no peer pressure involved. He is an aviation enthusiast and seems very experienced and familiar with Alpine flying (both rotor and fixed wing) and with one of the most demanding approach in the Alps which is into his own landing strip next to his factory in Sarntal. I went there this summer to take a look at the demanding environs around his field by myself. Just look up Locher Airfield. He runs his own youtube channel with two videos of him flying the mishap heli which he acquired in 2019 brand new from Airbus.
Nubian
31st Dec 2020, 13:01
Back of the envelope maths with 1400kg EEW, 7 pax (80kgs each), an hour of fuel (150kg), and 280kg for the external load puts it at 2390kg.
Not sure what altitude it occurred at but here's the HOGE data in case someone else has that info. I'm sure this one's gonna be performance / planning* related.
Glad everyone's OK.
*skills / airmanship
Well, at 2400kg the H125/B3e will happy cope as in the graph and puts it a HOGE at 9000ft at 0 deg C. Now, from experience, the people flying the B3 with pax, tend to stick more than enough fuel on board as the machine performs regardless for their need and you easily bust the 2250 (single-Hyd) limit. Reason for that is the big difference 550KG's between the internal and external AUW as you can jettison you external load if you get problems.
Now, if this was a private flight, then I'm not sure if there is a prohibition in the regs against flying pax and cargo at the same time, since it is not for hire. Then the load-limit for the B3 is 2800kgs AUW, and by dropping the snowmobile you might be below 2250 IF you don't bring bags of fuel as said earlier....
As for 7 POB, on one picture it sure looks like the machine has the mod for bench front pax. From experience, if you use the bench, you must have max load in the aft compartment to stay within C.G and then you can't have all seats occupied by average built adults 80kg's on new H125/B3's with 1 hour fuel without busting internal AUW and then I'm not counting anything on the hook.
As for the wire (telephone-line?) in the picture, I don't think it did contribute, but much rather the snow-covered steepish hill with semi-bad references and the pilot's experience. Snowmobile on a short sling, concentrating on putting it down gently, stick the tail or MR-blade into the snow as situational awareness is not all that great.... that will do the trick, but this is pure speculation.
Has anyone heard of carrying a skidoo as external load and many pax on an AS 350?
It was quite common before to combine pax and ext. load, but currently for commercial ops (Europe), the regs specify only necessary crew for the operation to be on board. In a 350, there is very few instances you need a second crew on board if the pilot is proficient, besides for role-training new pilots
As for the wire (telephone-line?) in the picture, I don't think it did contribute, but much rather the snow-covered steepish hill with semi-bad references and the pilot's experience. Snowmobile on a short sling, concentrating on putting it down gently, stick the tail or MR-blade into the snow as situational awareness is not all that great.... that will do the trick, but this is pure speculation.
FWIW the local fire service is quoted in the local media as saying "we assume the rotor blades touched the ground during the landing approach".
He runs his own youtube channel with two videos of him flying the mishap heli which he acquired in 2019 brand new from Airbus.
Had a look at some of his videos, are shoulder harnesses optional ?
Hot and Hi
1st Jan 2021, 11:16
From the same owner video, go to 3:58: We have seen this before, including the warning of the risk of departing pax moving uphill...
https://youtu.be/dceJsScETTg?t=239
Nubian
1st Jan 2021, 12:36
From the same owner video, go to 3:58: We have seen this before, including the warning of the risk of departing pax moving uphill...
https://youtu.be/dceJsScETTg?t=239
Don't get too excited about toe-in landings. I don't know how many I have to date, but it is a considerable amount. Doing it with properly trained people and follow procedure, have good situational awareness and not stretch the limit as in the other thread discussing the Mont Blanc rescue, is key.
The whole appearance and lack of airmanship you see in this videoclip, and if the news reporting is semi accurate, tell me more than enough...... Thankfully it seems that nobody got hurt!
On a general note, be vary of rich/semi-rich/selfmade individuals that is successful in sports or business, that suddenly spend some of their money on things that can fall out of the sky if not handled properly.....
atakacs
1st Jan 2021, 12:39
Well there go the expensive toys...
Glad everyone walked from this one. Hope the learning opportunity will not be missed.
ShyTorque
1st Jan 2021, 13:35
The toe-in landings were one of the least worrying things in that video.
Afm sup.13.2-4 no person may be carried unless: - he is a flight crew member; - he is a flight crew member trainee; or - he performs an essential function in connection with the external-load operation.
malabo
2nd Jan 2021, 03:00
Lots of operators here do "sled" recovery in the winter, helps the cash flow. Usually you land nearby and a swamper sets the load up, then you come in close so he can hook you up. Lots of slope in this video, and I don't see bearpaws on the skids, or maybe they melted off in the fire. Don't assume your country's rules or conventions are applied everywhere else. Legalities are all incidental in this case - whether they were broken or not has nothing to do with the accident.
Flying Bull
2nd Jan 2021, 13:02
The toe-in landings were one of the least worrying things in that video.
Thats what I thought also.
No need to fly in a way that any engine malfunction would end in a crash, especially with that good weather and no one loosing his live, if you don’t make it there - and even then the integration of an escape route would be wise....
ShyTorque
2nd Jan 2021, 16:12
Thats what I thought also.
No need to fly in a way that any engine malfunction would end in a crash, especially with that good weather and no one loosing his live, if you don’t make it there - and even then the integration of an escape route would be wise....
My thoughts exactly. The torque meter was near maximum and judging by the slip string, the airspeed was near zero for much of that climb up the face of the very steep rock face. No escape route from that configuration. It’s one thing hot dogging to impress yourself when flying solo, but with unknowing passengers on board? Negligent behaviour.
atakacs
2nd Jan 2021, 16:21
Let's hope he learned his lesson...