Soar...

[thisishardtochoose]

Have heard they have entered Voluntary Administration, can anyone confirm?

Can't say they'll be missed, but feel bad for any students still enrolled and the instructors affected.

[tail wheel]

Why start a rumour when with a little effort you can post fact?

Name: GOBEL AVIATION PTY. LTD.
ACN: 006 160 658
ABN: 11 006 160 658
Previous state number: C0215994C
Previous state of registration: Victoria
Registration date: 1/06/1983
Next review date: 1/06/2021
Former name(s): BENDIGO AVIATION SERVICES PTY. LIMITED

Status: External Administration

Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Locality of registered office: HAWTHORN EAST VIC 3123

Effective date either 28 or 29 December 2020.

[evilducky]

Here comes the wave.

Trading whilst insolvent becomes illegal again from next week. Soar will be one of many companies that hand over to the administrators as we rip the economic bandaid off.

[evilducky]

Speaking of...NOTICE OF APPOINTMENT AS LIQUIDATORCompany details
Company: China Southern West Australian Flying College Pty Ltd
ACN: 000 863 123
Status: In Liquidation
Appointment Date: 21 December 2020

https://publishednotices.asic.gov.au/browsesearch-notices/notice-details/China-Southern-West-Australian-Flying-College-Pty-Ltd-000863123/43d7878f-d498-4711-bdfe-aaa3ce634838?appointment=All&noticestate=All&companynameoracn=China+southern&court=&district=&dnotice=

[Ixixly]

Geez, I disliked Soar very much because of their lack of ethics but it's still sad to see it go. For the Instructors and other Staff that used to work there who might read this stay strong, it'll be tough and make sure you lean on friends and families for support, that's what they're there for! If anyone who ran it happens to read this, rot in hell.

[Clare Prop]

So just over a year ago the CEO was boasting how he had a personal wealth of 66 million. I also heard that same then ex CEO let the country a few months back.

Most of that money came from VET loans apparently.

This sort of rort just gets repeated over and over and every time there is millions of missing taxpayers money, CEOs in flashy cars who never seem to be accountable then vanish, staff and students left with less than nothing and no recourse, the money has all gone. These loans just create opportunities for people who see an easy way to get rich "There's a global pilot shortage! Never been a better time to learn to fly!" etc and then leave a trail of destruction, not only the staff and students who get shafted but the rest of the industry who have to pay higher prices to keep the suppliers afloat when they are left with bad debts, and the operators who have had to compete with these organisations whilst subsiding them with our taxes.

.And then the next one comes along...or sometimes the same characters...and round we go again.

[pxs]

Name: SOAR AVIATION PTY. LTD.
ACN: 159 695 379
ABN: 78 159 695 379
Registration date: 30/07/2012
Next review date: 30/07/2021

Status: Deregistered
Date deregistered: 7/10/2020
Type: Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Locality of registered office:
Regulator: Australian Securities & Investments Commission

[pxs]

SOAR AVIATION PTY. LTD.ACN 159 695 379Australian Proprietary CompanyDeregistered Select result



SOAR AVIATION (FIAD) PTY LTDACN 613 308 820Australian Proprietary CompanyUnder External AdministrationHAWTHORN EAST VIC 3123Select result



SOAR AVIATION MELBOURNE PTY LTDACN 619 893 186Australian Proprietary CompanyUnder External AdministrationHAWTHORN EAST VIC 3123Select result



SOAR AVIATION SYDNEY PTY LTDACN 613 279 048Australian Proprietary CompanyUnder External AdministrationHAWTHORN EAST VIC 3123Select result



SOAR AVIATION HOLDINGS PTY LTDACN 600 336 301Australian Proprietary CompanyDeregistered Select result



SOAR AVIATION HOLDINGS PTY LTDACN 626 081 089Australian Proprietary CompanyUnder External AdministrationHAWTHORN EAST VIC 3123Select result



SOAR AVIATION FLIGHT TRAINING Business NameCancelled Select result



SOAR AVIATION AIRCRAFT HOLDINGS PTY LTDACN 613 275 853Australian Proprietary CompanyUnder External AdministrationHAWTHORN EAST VIC 3123

[Squawk7700]

Career-wise for the instructors and students, this is probably a good thing. A short term bump on a rocky road to a fulfilling career.

[tail wheel]

The corporate entities titled "Soar Aviation" are relevant but it is the AOC holder and operating companies operations that are principally affected by External Administration.

The AOC Holder and Company in External Administration is Gobel Aviation Pty Ltd trading as Soar Advanced Flight Training.

AOC Holder Name: GOBEL AVIATION PTY LTD
Primary Trading Name: Soar Advanced Flight Training
Town/City: MOORABBIN AIRPORT
State: VIC
AOC Holder Country: Australia
Type of AOC: Australian
CASA Office: Southern Region
Operations: Aerial Work, Aircraft Charter
AOC Application Status: Issued
Issue Date: 15/05/2020
Expiry Date: 30/04/2021

Is the Administrator operating the Company or are the doors closed? Their web site is still active.

[ysbkpilot]

Is the Administrator operating the Company or are the doors closed? Their web site is still active.

Notice on the door of the building in YMMB states operations are suspended while KPMG conducts an urgent review of the group.

[Mach1Muppet]

As much as I hate Soar, i really feel for the staff and the students, hopefully it all irons out over 2021, best of luck to all

[over_centre]

Been out of the loop for a while; can someone fill me in on how Soar got hold of Gobel's AOC?

Poor Chris would not be impressed. 😞

[Stikman]

Been out of the loop for a while; can someone fill me in on how Soar got hold of Gobel's AOC?

Poor Chris would not be impressed. 😞
Neel bought it. Chris wanted to retire at the time.

[tail wheel]

Notice on the door of the building in YMMB states operations are suspended while KPMG conducts an urgent review of the group.

The appointed external manager is liable for any new debts he creates from time of appointment. If he decides the entity can trade without creating any new debt, it will trade. If not viable/profitable, or the creditors will not underwrite any new debt, it will be liquidated - sold as a going concern or the assets sold to pay down debts. The Manager/Liquidator gets first cut of the funds!

[runway16]

Prior to SOAR buying the Gobel AOC I understand that SOAR was only an RA operation, doing training and charter (joyrides). Hence Gobel trading as SOAR.

I stand to be corrected.

[Stikman]

SOAR (or Sour, depending on your POV) initially started as an RA operation with one Jabiru J-160, which later increased to 3 and a cross-hired J-170. Later they went to Foxbats, Aquilas, Bristells, etc.
There were a few AOC's that SOAR piggy-backed off before buying Chris Gobel's, Amber Aviation was one of them, and one of the flying schools long established at YMMB (can't remember which one..)
There were an awful lot of Trial Instructional Flights given that Neel had deals with Scoopon, Groupon, and other similar operations, before they became what they are (were?) today.

[deja vu]

Nothing new here, GA operators are always on borrowed time. Covid obviously doesn't help.
Thinking back to all the YMMB based training and charter outfits that I have known over the years that are all long gone. Maybe RVAC still exists but what about Schutts, Civils, Peninsula, Ken Sharp's GFS, Campbell-Hicks, Combined, Australian Air Charters, Airchart, Bassair, Flinders Is. Airways, Phoenix, John Corrells, Nicholas Skyways, Jayrow, Pipair, Peter Bini and numerous others that came after I stopped frequenting Moorabbin. Essendon and Bankstown the same.
All have in common is leaving people without jobs.

[Checkboard]

Wow. What a list of names. Deja Vu, eh? :)

I was an instructor at RVAC at the end of the 80's and so also a customer at a lot of those places.

[zanthrus]

Neel Khokhani is a crook, plain and simple. I recall he said to me about the Scoopon/Groupon vouchers for TIF's, "I don't care if the customer never redeems their voucher as I already have their money". This summarises his attitude completely. The majority of these "TIF's" were sold to inbound Chinese tourists who couldn't even speak English let alone have an interest in learning to fly. It is ILLEGAL to advertise and operate JOY FLIGHTS in RA aircraft. Hence why they were marketed as "TIF's". Neel was obviously operating ILLEGALLY for many years and the authorities CASA and RAAus did NOTHING about it. TIME FOR THE FEDERAL POLICE TO FIND THIS ****** AND TAKE ALL HIS ILL GOTTEN MONEY, THEN EITHER DEPORT HIM OR PUT HIM IN JAIL FOR LIFE!

Mods, this post is not slander, it is the truth. I was there. I know this to be the true facts.

[Squawk7700]

Neel was obviously operating ILLEGALLY for many years and the authorities CASA and RAAus did NOTHING about it.



Is that because they were selling TIF’s? That is standard industry practice and all schools sell TIF’s for marketing purposes. In tourist areas it is very common and the TIF costs are highly inflated.

[Ixixly]

Then either you misunderstood or he did, because that's not how Groupon works. When a Groupon voucher is purchased the company it is for doesn't get a dime until it's actually redeemed, Scoopon are different but not always as well.

Don't get me wrong, he's a crook but stick to the actual facts. Can someone point out the actual reg that makes it illegal for a Joy/Scenic Flight to be carried out in an RAAus Aircraft, genuinely curious as it's not a field I've looked into much and a bit of googling around doesn't seem to reveal much unfortunately.

[Cloudee]

Can someone point out the actual reg that makes it illegal for a Joy/Scenic Flight to be carried out in an RAAus Aircraft, genuinely curious as it's not a field I've looked into much and a bit of googling around doesn't seem to reveal much unfortunately.

RAAus aircraft used by SOAR operated under CAO 95.55 https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2018L00070 They must operate under the RAAus Ops Manual https://members.raa.asn.au/storage/6-om-71-august-2016-single-pages.pdf and only for private operations or flying training. Scenic or joy flights for reward are charter.
From CAO 95.55

6.1 The following general conditions apply in relation to a relevant aeroplane:

(a) a person must not use the aeroplane other than for:

(i) private operations, including glider towing, but not an aerial application operation; or

(ii) if the aeroplane has been wholly built and assembled by a commercial manufacturer — flying training, to enable the person to obtain a RAA pilot certificate; or

(iii) if the person has wholly built or assembled the aeroplane, whether individually or with other persons — the person’s personal flying training;

[Stikman]

Then either you misunderstood or he did, because that's not how Groupon works. When a Groupon voucher is purchased the company it is for doesn't get a dime until it's actually redeemed, Scoopon are different but not always as well.

Don't get me wrong, he's a crook but stick to the actual facts. Can someone point out the actual reg that makes it illegal for a Joy/Scenic Flight to be carried out in an RAAus Aircraft, genuinely curious as it's not a field I've looked into much and a bit of googling around doesn't seem to reveal much unfortunately.
There's no equivalent to a CPL or Class 1 medical in RAAus...both of which are needed to operate joy/scenic flights. If you want to operate an RAAus aircraft, you must be a financial member of RAAus, hold a valid pilot certificate (not licence), and self-certify that you're medically fit. The only exception is for instructors, who must hold a Class 2 or the RAAus equivalent.

[Ixixly]

There's no equivalent to a CPL or Class 1 medical in RAAus...both of which are needed to operate joy/scenic flights. If you want to operate an RAAus aircraft, you must be a financial member of RAAus, hold a valid pilot certificate (not licence), and self-certify that you're medically fit. The only exception is for instructors, who must hold a Class 2 or the RAAus equivalent.

Thanks Stikman, that explains a lot! I thought it was an exemption in the CASA regs to operate under the RAAus Ops Manual so was looking solely in the RAAus Ops for types of flights permitted but this makes a lot more sense now, cheers.

The next question though, Soar didn't solely operate RAAus so were they doing the TIFs in their VH Registered Aircraft I wonder. Would think that otherwise they'd have been pulled up a long time ago and this is how they got around it. Interestingly their website still makes no mention of the current proceedings either.

[Squawk7700]

The TIF is achieved legitimately by signing up the student for a temporary free RAAus membership.

This system is well sorted and has been the case for many a years and is all legal.

All RAAus schools do TIF’s, however some do a lot more than others, particularly in areas with high tourist flow or other effective methods of advertising.

Option (ii) above covers Soar’s TIF’s.

Their business practices on the other hand, are not something that CASA or RAAus have control over.

[Stikman]

I'm not sure of the history of Soar after March 2015, however, up until then they were pretty much strictly RAAus. Once Neel got hold of an AOC (interesting story as to why he didn't get his own..), he started doing the odd charter flight in cross-hired aircraft. As far as I know, all TIFs were done under the RAAus banner....certainly this was the case up until March 2015.

[Lead Balloon]

The TIF scam has been running for a long, long time. Students of SMS will be aware of the term ‘normalised deviation’. That’s what TIFs are.

When it goes horribly wrong, the ‘operator’ and CASA will be on the same rather than different sides of the court.

Cloudee quoted one of the key conditions on the main exemption under which the ‘ultralight’ community continues to escape the clutches of the regulatory Frankenstein’s monster. Someone walking off the street and paying money to be flown around in an aircraft s/he didn’t buy or build - pretend training or otherwise - doesn’t satisfy the condition.

[Squawk7700]

When it goes horribly wrong, the ‘operator’ and CASA will be on the same rather than different sides of the court.



Ahah! Who said the industry and the regulator can’t work together? !!!

[MPGiles]

They bought it

[poteroo]

The TIF scam has been running for a long, long time. Students of SMS will be aware of the term ‘normalised deviation’. That’s what TIFs are.

When it goes horribly wrong, the ‘operator’ and CASA will be on the same rather than different sides of the court.

Cloudee quoted one of the key conditions on the main exemption under which the ‘ultralight’ community continues to escape the clutches of the regulatory Frankenstein’s monster. Someone walking off the street and paying money to be flown around in an aircraft s/he didn’t buy or build - pretend training or otherwise - doesn’t satisfy the condition.

Obviously, you've seen how other RAAus flight schools operate, otherwise you're speculating. I don't believe that there is anything inherently illegal about a TIF done in a factory built and LAME maintained RAAus aircraft. Provided that the RAAus instructor acts within both the letter, and the spirit, of the rules, then the TIF is done as a TIF. We look on the ability to conduct TIFs as a major student influencer, and it would be a major setback were it to be made illegal.

This includes signing the person up via an RAAus 'temporary membership' form, giving them a fundamentals brief, then treating them as a student and not a passenger. In flight, they must operate the controls iaw with what's in the Lesson 1 (E & OC). 9/10 of the TIFs that we conduct here are with people who have expressed a strong interest in learning to fly, and we are in a major tourist location. If they want a joyflight, we direct them to the nearby GA school which has a C172.

happy days,

[Fwh]

Glad i didn't do my training here, there seems to be a lot of crooks in the industry looking to break rules so they can make quick money.

[zanthrus]

A TIF in a RAAus aircraft is fine. Even for those students eventually wanting to go GA CPL etc it is a great and cheap way to get up to the same level as a GA Recreational Pilot Licence equivalency and jump into GA syllabus from there.
However at SOAR it was VERY clear to me and anyone else around SOAR at the time (2015 prior to Neel buying Gobels Aviation AOC) that the persons enjoying these "TIFs" were NOT POTENTIAL STUDENTS. They were Chinese tourists. Hardly ANY of them wanted to take the controls, they couldn't speak a word of English, and just took selfies all flight. They were clearly Joy flights which are ILLEGAL in RAAus aircraft. No doubt about it in my mind. I was there. I KNOW FIRST HAND!

[roundsounds]

Glad i didn't do my training here, there seems to be a lot of crooks in the industry looking to break rules so they can make quick money.
Unfortunately that’s GA, there will be another to replace SOAR.

[Checkboard]

I was there. I KNOW FIRST HAND!
Ah, the outrage of the Aussie pilot who spots what they think is a monor infraction of Rule xx.yy, part ww, Section zz, paragraph tt. :D

If the aircraft were loaded with three Chinese tourists, flying for an hour and a half around the sight-seeing areas - perhaps. But what difference between a TIF customer who says "I just want to get a feel for it" and takes selfies, and a custormer who actually touches the controls?

[Bodie1]

I was there. I KNOW FIRST HAND!

Did you report any of your concerns? Did you conduct any of these flights?

I think I know the answer to both of these questions.

[David J Pilkington]

Thinking back to all the YMMB based training and charter outfits that I have known over the years that are all long gone. Maybe RVAC still exists but what about Schutts, Civils, Peninsula, Ken Sharp's GFS, Campbell-Hicks, Combined, Australian Air Charters, Airchart, Bassair, Flinders Is. Airways, Phoenix, John Corrells, Nicholas Skyways, Jayrow, Pipair, Peter Bini and numerous others that came after I stopped frequenting Moorabbin. Essendon and Bankstown the same.Some still going fine, some rebadged or taken over and still here in another form.

All have in common is leaving people without jobs.Be interesting to compare the numbers employed pre-COVID with those employed in earlier years.

Neel Khokhani ... said to me about the Scoopon/Groupon vouchers for TIF's, "I don't care if the customer never redeems their voucher as I already have their money". This summarises his attitude completely.Depends on the context of what he said to you. I said the same about some charity flights - more than happy to fly them even after some years have passed but I'm not going to chase them. Gee, until a year or so ago, most vouchers expired after a year and many Finance Managers would say the same - ever tried to use an expired movie voucher?

[Squawk7700]

The joy flight gift voucher rate runs in the industry at about a 30% no-show.

You could sit a non-operational TigerMoth next to the highway and sell flights as vouchers.

Short of social media and word of mouth destroying your scam, you’d pick up 30% for doing nothing.

[Bodie1]

One thing I'm interested in, are the students creditors? Quite a bit of their tuition will have been forward paid. I doubt the students will have the capacity to refuse to pay the VET LOAN back to the taxpayer via the government, so the government will keep taking the payments? I seriously doubt that any tuition money will be refunded to the students by the administrator. If this is the case, will the class action target the government for charging the student for services not provided?

Maybe there is a day of reckoning coming for VET Student Loans and the aviation sector?

Whist most of you think they are overpriced and a rip off (that can be argued) most of the cost that goes on top of the aircraft hire charges stem from RTO compliance (significant) and actually employing the instructors correctly (award wages, structure of employment etc). It is not cheap to obtain VET Student Loans or RTO status for your organisation, this cost must be passed on, simple fact of business. Ragging organisations for the cost of a pilots license under VET Student Loans verse self funding is simplistic in the extreme.

If VET Student Loans disappear GA will contract significantly, maybe this needs to happen? Add to this the extremely poor trading relationship between China and Australia. China has options, Australia is not the only place cadet training takes place, their GA capacity is expanding significantly. If they walk away, another contraction.

It seems that most Australians seem to think that closing borders is keeping them safe, I wonder what being 'kept safe' will look like when the federal government runs out of patience with state border shutdowns. Tsunami awaits I reckon.

[ysbkpilot]

One thing I'm interested in, are the students creditors? Quite a bit of their tuition will have been forward paid. I doubt the students will have the capacity to refuse to pay the VET LOAN back to the taxpayer via the government, so the government will keep taking the payments? I seriously doubt that any tuition money will be refunded to the students by the administrator.

Most people seem to not understand the SOAR/BHI partnership. Almost all students studying at Soar were enrolled into a Box Hill diploma course. They are students of Box Hill, not Soar Aviation. Soar is contracted to deliver the training, but at the end of the day, it now rests with Box Hill to find a new way to deliver the training to students.

One thing that's not clear is the structure in which Soar was paid by Box Hill to deliver the training.

[Framcicles]

One thing I'm interested in, are the students creditors? Quite a bit of their tuition will have been forward paid. I doubt the students will have the capacity to refuse to pay the VET LOAN back to the taxpayer via the government, so the government will keep taking the payments? I seriously doubt that any tuition money will be refunded to the students by the administrator. If this is the case, will the class action target the government for charging the student for services not provided?
.

BHI are the training provider and responsible for the loan itself. Soar in this case is their contractor. BHI will need to adhere to whatever the loan rules are. Either another flight school or refunds.

[Bodie1]

OK, let me make it a bit simpler. All roads lead back to Soar. The whole Soar Fee-Help relationship wasn't initiated by BHI. BHI will now chase the liquidator for money taken by Soar for training but not delivered?

[Superfly Slick Dick]

I am still amazed that a government institution (TAFE) would:
1) Do business with a company that was as at the time, as ‘green’ as Soar
2) Do very little (if any) market research into the validity of the training that Soar were actually doing.. fancy selling commercial courses using aeroplanes with Rotax engines!
Not good enough. Particularly distasteful is how a previous CEO (according to a recent post) had boasted of making millions from this (alleged Ponzi scheme) company. I’m sure it wasn’t through good hard, honest work.
Heads should roll..!
Whilst these are only my personal opinions, I will note that;
1) Rotax engines are good engines.. alas, not suitable for commercial training.
2) The aeroplanes utilised by Soar (although not unsafe) were probably not the best planes for their desired market application.
3) The most recent management structure, and team at Soar (from what I heard, and what I believe to be the case), truly did want the company to evolve.
I know the current HOO, and I know him to be ‘one of the good guys’, shall we say.

By the time the place closed, I understand that a safety culture was being implemented, and bred into the company (no mean feat - particularly given its origins).
Unfortunately however, it seemed by that point that the horse had bolted.
A pilot in a company that I associate with is an ex-Soar student. He is an absolutely brilliant pilot, and an upstanding young man. He informed me that Soar was particularly attractive to the ‘main stream’ because it was a ‘free for all’. He told me of people who seemed like total losers being signed up, with very little discretion or vetting (if any). Also, and very importantly; Soar allowed training to occur part-time, a VET-fee course like this was previously unheard of.
What could possibly go wrong!?
I am sad to see the demise of another aviation company, but I am equally sad (and angry!) to see people that have been negatively affected by it.

Caveat emptor, (Latin: “let the buyer beware”), in the law of commercial transactions, principle that the buyer purchases at his own risk in the absence of an express warranty in the contract.

(These are my personal opinions only, ..and I was drunk when I wrote it too!).

[Bodie1]

The ASQA audit performed on Soar/BHI was probably the last of the real audits that will be done on an aviation fee-help RTO. It was performed by an auditor that has aviation experience, he knew what to look for, and he found it. BHI didn't have a clue what it was meant to be delivering or how to. Ask any of the students about the branding on the theory that came out of BHI. Let's just say that a PDF converter wasn't part of whomever was preparing the materials repertoire.

Soar, well, the character that created the place was well known for his business practices, ask any other flight school operator how he operated. When this character appeared on the AFR young rich list he knew what was coming, but that didn't stop him big noting. It takes a special kind of stupid to continue down that path when it was just a matter of time before the whole saga blew up in his face.

Yep, the most recent HOO is a real decent fella, but not even Alan Joyce coulda dragged that mess back above the line.

[ysbkpilot]

BHI didn't have a clue what it was meant to be delivering or how to. Ask any of the students about the branding on the theory that came out of BHI.

Im assuming you’re referring to “CAE” logos on some of the content? I’ve seen the content you’re referring to and they are not CAE Oxford logos.
Look up CAE.edu.au and the relationship with BHI.

[Squawk7700]

$5,200,000 / 37 = $140,540

Did they pay ANYTHING off their aircraft leases?

Yes I know there’s a twin thrown in there somewhere, but many off the Foxbats’s cost less than the above amount.

[Sunfish]

Soar, well, the character that created the place was well known for his business practices, ask any other flight school operator how he operated. When this character appeared on the AFR young rich list he knew what was coming, but that didn't stop him big noting. It takes a special kind of stupid to continue down that path when it was just a matter of time before the whole saga blew up in his face.

Look up "Narcissistic Personality Disorder", the grandiose behaviour gives it away. Its related to sociopathic/psychopathic behaviour. These people are very believable because they can lie convincingly with a straight face,

[Framcicles]

OK, let me make it a bit simpler. All roads lead back to Soar. The whole Soar Fee-Help relationship wasn't initiated by BHI. BHI will now chase the liquidator for money taken by Soar for training but not delivered?

BHI are still the RTO who provides the loan though, therefore they have to deal with that side of the issue. There are mechanisms for refunds and alternate providers built into the VET-FEE Loans but who knows how good they are, although I have heard on student who was able to get refunded when I was studying.

My understanding BHI paid SOAR per flight hour (I am an ex student) with X amount of hours allocated to each cluster. If you go over this then you paid SOAR directly and they make gravy on this.

In my PPL stage we had no classroom material at all. Otherwise it mostly the same as another well known educators material.

[Squawk7700]

Pretty certain I read online somewhere that Box Hill had to prepay for the hours to be flown.

There must be something non-traditional in the arrangement, otherwise it would be difficult to get so rich, so quickly.

There would be other schools doing similar hours, but nowhere near making the AFR rich-list.

[zanthrus]

Bodie1,

Yes I did make my concerns known about this and other safety issues to Soar management , then when no action was forthcoming (as expected from Neel) I reported then to RAAus and CASA.

I left them precisely because I felt uncomfortable about these flights and more. I felt someone was going to be hurt or killed, and I wanted no part of it. Unfortunately I was proven right, but that didn’t stop Neel going on to Box Hill and fleecing new victims.

[Ixixly]

Zanthrus, if you took up a single person who couldn't speak English as you say then you were in contravention of the RAAus Ops Manual you realise right? Not even a grey area right there but a straight up contravention.

[Lookleft]

Just in case anyone wants to know what a Sunfish looks like https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-05/huge-sunfish-washes-up-on-tasmanian-beach/13030788

[Bodie1]

Im assuming you’re referring to “CAE” logos on some of the content?

No I am NOT talking about CAE logos.

[Bodie1]

Bodie1,

Yes I did make my concerns known about this and other safety issues to Soar management , then when no action was forthcoming (as expected from Neel) I reported then to RAAus and CASA.

I left them precisely because I felt uncomfortable about these flights and more. I felt someone was going to be hurt or killed, and I wanted no part of it. Unfortunately I was proven right, but that didn’t stop Neel going on to Box Hill and fleecing new victims.

I stand corrected, well done :ok:

[Dick Smith]

Readers might be interested in these three articles about Soar. Here is a link to the Australian Aviation article (https://australianaviation.com.au/2021/01/we-wont-take-your-call-says-collapsed-flight-school-soar/) and attached are articles from The Australian and The Age.

Information on the 2020 class action can be found at these links:

https://gordonlegal.com.au/media/1239/200521-class-action-summary-statement.pdf

https://www.bhiclassaction.com.au/

[mcoates]

Will there be any dollars available for distribution after all the lawyers have been paid ?

I am told the principal for Soar disappeared back to India some time September/October last year with I am guessing any assets in the bank going with him.

They will have some aircraft for sale but are these financed and the sale of the assets will go straight back to the finance companies.

As much as I think litigation needs to go ahead it worries me just how much the typical student who now has a $70,000 debt is going to get back. I imagine very little if anything at all but hope to be told I am wrong.

Meanwhile, from what I am told, someone is probably living the high life in India.

[mcoates]

Just reading more about this I notice from the Gordon legal information... Will there be anything left to pay back the students ? I really doubt it because part of the terms and conditions is that Gordon legal can charge 25% above what it would normally charge as normal fees which are probably very high anyway if it is successful. I really wish the litigation success but with low assets and high legal fees, 25% above the normal fee I am sure there will not be anything left.


In the event that the class action is successful Gordon Legal is (subject to approval of the Court) entitled to charge its clients an uplift fee of 25% of its normal fees if the group members individual claim is successful.

Then it gets even worse for the students because even if they win everything and the court is not able to get enough out of Box Hill Institute then the students will need to pay Gordon legal so this is really a risk for a student.

They could win the case, and Box Hill Institute and Soar Aviation refuses to make payments then Gordon legal will get money from students

If the class action succeeds and compensation is payable to the group members, the representative plaintiffs intend to apply to the Court for an order that some of that compensation be used to help pay a share of the costs which are incurred by them in running the group proceeding but which are not able to be recovered from BHI.

[Lead Balloon]

It’s the perfect process.

Some saps incur huge debts in return for an outcome they don’t get. On the back of the debts, a spiv makes millions and disappears outside reach (but gets some happy snaps with important people in the interim).

Then some lawyers step in to seek compensation for the badly-done-by saps, and the badly-done-by saps pay more to the lawyers.

It kinda comes with sap turf.

[Sunfish]

It wont be about suing SOAR, the students will sue Box Hill. They are backed by the Government.

[engine out]

I wonder if any Soar students have been able to get there student records transferred to other flying schools? Hopefully they all kept there logbooks filled out and at home.

[cattletruck]

So what is the Minister of Education doing about making a multi-millionaire who fled the country out of tax payer dollars? Anything?

[Framcicles]

I wonder if any Soar students have been able to get there student records transferred to other flying schools? Hopefully they all kept there logbooks filled out and at home.

Students have been able to get their logbooks. Training files are still the property of BHI ive been told.

[Squawk7700]

making a multi-millionaire who fled the country

Did he :ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

From Today's 'News'......KPMG believes Soar Aviation was insolvent a year before administration (https://australianaviation.com.au/2021/02/kpmg-believes-soar-aviation-was-insolvent-a-year-before-administration/?utm_source=AustralianAviation&utm_campaign=09_02_2021&utm_medium=email&utm_content=1&utm_emailID=85d8c86001ea1925fd203ea00c66da94bc101095eab520ba e492afc832ccad4f)

Ah Well.......

[Clare Prop]

So the liquidators say Soar was insolvent a year before it closed down? Yet the directors haven't committed any offences?

Isn't trading while insolvent an offence? The Covid releif from this didn't kick in until March 2020. KPMG believes Soar Aviation was insolvent a year before administration (australianaviation.com.au) (https://australianaviation.com.au/2021/02/kpmg-believes-soar-aviation-was-insolvent-a-year-before-administration/)

Article says NK resigned in early 2019 but it was reported in AFR the he resigned in March 2020. Five months after bragging he was worth $66 million.

The video on their facebook page of McCormack saying "I'm inspired by Neel Khokami, Neel's doing a fantastic job... that's what this government is all about" makes me think there needs to be a very, very thorough investigation of this whole stinking mess. (Link to the video on their facebook page) (2) Soar Aviation | Facebook

Will any lessons be learned or will people who "inspire" politicians still be able to rob the taxpayers and students of so much through the VET loans rort?

[Clare Prop]

Your tax dollars at workhttps://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1334/neel_52cad2c6f17a24a30fac0f40a1c3caa27d5f2944.png

[runway16]

Was he the one that signed off for the destruction of Moorabbin airport as I write. Ware houses replacing hangars and offices and tarmac and future development ???


Now I know who not to vote for come next election !

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Is he not....." The Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development in the Government of Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Australia) "..???

Well......???

Question - Who is 'ministering' the minister when the minister is busy minstering ...???

[Strainer]

The Midas touch? Doesn't bode well for the guys and gals at Mildura!

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x531/uygjeh_ieghefrbc_800_78baccbcc1eee4e270800bf65d0ee63f7699352 0.jpg

[Sunfish]

In my opinion, McCormack should be looking more closely at his staff, his Department and CASA because it's actually their failure if they didn't realise Khokani was a shonky operator and warn the Minister.

That is one of the most important functions of a good public servant - to be well enough "connected" and to have a good built - in "BS detector" to protect Ministers from unfortunate liaisons like this because there are any number of Khokanis out there trying for a photo with the Minister or better still: a letter of commendation or an award. There will be students who started with SOAR because they saw the Ministers visit as an endorsement of the company. Same goes double for Mildura.

In particular, I find it absolutely perverse that CASA appears to have attacked APTA and Glen Buckley while either not being aware of, or ignoring, the safety problems and questionable practices that were then apparent at SOAR.

[Strainer]

In particular, I find it absolutely perverse that CASA appears to have attacked APTA and Glen Buckley while either not being aware of, or ignoring, the safety problems and questionable practices that were then apparent at SOAR.

.....ignoring. Wilfully.

[machtuk]

We have to remind ourselves that corruption reigns in Australia big time in all industries and aviation is not amune to it either! It's human nature to rot any system, been going on since we stepped out of the caves!

[Clare Prop]

Here we go again

Being in command of an aircraft is just amazing!

The closing comment "Soaring to an new altitude..."

Rush to train thousands of NSW student pilots ahead of international borders reopening | 7NEWS - YouTube

[ACMS]

Here we go again

Being in command of an aircraft is just amazing!

The closing comment "Soaring to an new altitude..."

Rush to train thousands of NSW student pilots ahead of international borders reopening | 7NEWS - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkAY7Rg_MjU)



nothing wrong with being positive and I for one hope they are correct.....

[runway16]

Er, but what about all the unemployed, fired or furloughed experienced pilots now flipping burgers or stacking shelves on the back of the clock ??

[McLimit]

Airlines in the US are starting to recruit again, not all of them, but jobs starting to pick up again. When Andrew's and that clown in WA are finished, say, after their 2025 elections, it'll start again.

[Squawk7700]

Er, but what about all the unemployed, fired or furloughed experienced pilots now flipping burgers or stacking shelves on the back of the clock ??

You might be surprised at how many of them don’t want to go back as they found other things to do or started early retirement. Covid made a lot of people realise that there’s more to life than what they were doing before it happened. Plus don’t forget there was already the “global pilot shortage” before Covid.

[LKinnon]

Was he the one that signed off for the destruction of Moorabbin airport as I write. Ware houses replacing hangars and offices and tarmac and future development ???


Now I know who not to vote for come next election !

Yes, 100% Michael McCormack MP is the politician to blame for the Moorabbin Airport destruction:

Minister for Infrastructure and Transport from 26.2.2018 to 28.8.2018.
Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development from 28.8.2018.

[Framcicles]

For those interested, BHI are in the last stages of getting approval to move the current students to a new flight training provider. I'm pretty sure this is a requirement of the VET provider to find an alternate or refund the course in circumstances like this.

[McLimit]

Let's hope the ex Soar students can finally catch a break, it the above does happen, at least they're not at risk of dieing in a @#&*^%$)

[Squawk7700]

https://www.pickles.com.au/trucks/item/search/-/listing/listSaleItems/25001400#!/result?sort=Product_Type_Sequence&startPage=1&scrollPosition=91

Asset disposal has started...

[Clare Prop]

Aren't some of those aircraft the same ones that were disposed of by the liquidators of ACFT in 2015?
History repeating itself, no surprise there.
Time to stop wasting taxpayers money on these rorts.

[Squawk7700]

Aren't some of those aircraft the same ones that were disposed of by the liquidators of ACFT in 2015?


They weren’t liquidated in 2015, they just needed to raise $500k in capital after things went a south with BHI and it’s possible that some that didn’t sell, may have come up again.

[Sunfish]

Found a nest of those yellow jackets last week - annoying insects.

[Clare Prop]

They weren’t liquidated in 2015, they just needed to raise $500k in capital after things went a south with BHI and it’s possible that some that didn’t sell, may have come up again.

ACFT were definately liquidated in 2015. They were associated with ECU, not BHI. They originally imported those Aqulias. I guess Soar got them cheap at auction. ACFT ceases operations; administrators appointed – AviationWA (https://www.aviationwa.org.au/2014/12/15/acft-ceases-operations-administrators-appointed/)

[Squawk7700]

ACFT were definately liquidated in 2015. They were associated with ECU, not BHI. They originally imported those Aqulias. I guess Soar got them cheap at auction. ACFT ceases operations; administrators appointed – AviationWA (https://www.aviationwa.org.au/2014/12/15/acft-ceases-operations-administrators-appointed/)

Apologies, I misread your post and confused it with Soar running into trouble with the regulators and the Box Hill issues and having to sell some of their aircraft to raise $500k to pay the bills.

They had one of the Aquila’s very early on and then added extras later. I don’t know much about the Aquila, other than that many say it’s too heavy for the 100hp Rotax and I recall Cirrus were selling them through their dealer network for a period.

[Clare Prop]

According to the engineers, each one cost over half a million bucks by the time it was on the Australian register. Think how many good second hand 172s or Warriors you could have got for that. Would be interesting to know how much Soar paid for them and what they would go for now. ACFT was just one in a long line of VET funded schools that went belly up leaving staff and students in the lurch. And here we are six years later and the people who dish out the money have learned nothing.

[Squawk7700]

I heard that the auction is on hold and that they are going to arrange MR’s for as many as they can, presumably so that they can get more money for them.

They are also seeking Expressions Of Interest for them, before they go to auction, to see if they can get rid of them prior.

(This is second hand info)

[McLimit]

What's a vixen with 3000 hours on the clock worth? With a half life engine or something like that?

[Squawk7700]

What's a vixen with 3000 hours on the clock worth? With a half life engine or something like that?

In all honesty, more than a year ago, but nobody is going to pay top dollar for a second hand yellow Foxbat nowadays you’d have to think! Too expensive to respray for those after a bargain.

At a guess some of those early Foxbats would have been purchased at around $95k and now have 3,000 hours, which would mean eng 1,000 HTR. Hard to know really, as they do have fabric on them and the perspex would have to be deteriorating a lot being left outside, so a bit of work to make tidy for a proud private owner.

I heard the people running the auction reckon 30% off retail for the low hour Tecnams. Time will tell! The MR certainly increases the value a bit.

[mcoates]

Foxbats $40-$55k ? as mentioned they are yellow and would need to be repainted if you wanted something unique to distance them from their previous owners.

They have been used in a training school, an aircraft in this operation usually have a depreciation rate of at least 20%-30% per annum. depending on hours, accident history and of course getting the correct maintenance.

Purchasing quite a few Soar probably brought them for $85,000-$95,000 originally, takeoff the GST and your starting get an idea of what they really cost, deduct the depreciation, then a little bit more because they are in a flying school, then a little bit more because of the buyers premiums and you might as well ask Pickles to pay you to take them. :)

[Blueyonda]

Any reports from todays inspection?

[Superfly Slick Dick]

What inspection?

[Squawk7700]

What inspection?

There are set inspection times or some by private arrangement.

[McLimit]

Any reports from todays inspection?

I had a Captain Cook, at Vixens and Foxbats mainly. The MR's were interesting to say the least. And the logbooks of course. You'll want to have your wits about you if you're buying. Either that or get them for a price that it doesn't matter.

[Mach1Muppet]

Any reports from todays inspection?

Aircraft didnt look to flash, but there are a few gems

[Chopz]

For those interested, BHI are in the last stages of getting approval to move the current students to a new flight training provider. I'm pretty sure this is a requirement of the VET provider to find an alternate or refund the course in circumstances like this.

Who is the new flight provider? Nothing on their website as yet.

[Framcicles]

Who is the new flight provider? Nothing on their website as yet.

The email sent out to the students didn't specify and I haven't seen anything else posted up by the guys and gals who are stuck there at the moment.

[Mach1Muppet]

Who is the new flight provider? Nothing on their website as yet.
I heard a very rough rumour of it being CAE

[radials]

I don't se any correlation with what Soar have done and this initiative between TAFE and BASAIR?

This is actually a good news story for the aviation training sector. Both are reputable establishments, and there is no need to rubbish them unnecessarily.

[ysbkpilot]

Both are reputable establishments, and there is no need to rubbish them unnecessarily.

Ive heard from TAFE’s previous flying partner that TAFE were absolutely hopeless.

[mcoates]

Anyone do the auctions ? They were starting today i thought ?

[Squawk7700]

$81,500 for the 800 hour VH registered Bristell.

[Paul O'Rourke]

$81,500 for the 800 hour VH registered Bristell.

+ 8.25% Buyers premium (Inc GST)

FOXBAT 61.5K + BP CAIRNS
TWIN 500.5K + BP - MAYBE A BIT HIGHER
RED BRISTELL 111.5K + BP - MAYBE A BIT HIGHER
AQUILA APPROX 59.5K +BP - MAYBE A BIT HIGHER

[zanthrus]

Fark! The Tecnam Twins were $400000 each when they were new. These aren’t. I have flown both of them in their previous life at anther flight school and I can confirm that they were a maintenance nightmare. Gee, buy two good recent year model Seminoles for $500k if you want a good IFR Twin trainer.

[Paul O'Rourke]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1127x506/screen_shot_2021_04_05_at_1_06_42_pm_47c744c05db6e2106eb4865 7d6c0f32de8e52b27.png
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1127x296/screen_shot_2021_04_05_at_1_07_21_pm_53a6bb403cd30665d335d2b a248e5c0e30a35108.png

[Checkboard]

Someone scored an Aerobat for $14,700 ?? :o

[Squawk7700]

Someone scored an Aerobat for $14,700 ?? :o

Aeroprakt Foxbat.

Close to 4K hours. Probably pretty tired if still in one piece.

My contacts that viewed the aircraft and logs all said that they was a lot of bent, broken, replaced and upgraded nose legs, even on the newer Tecnams.

[Paul O'Rourke]

The rear fuse had an inspection hole cut in it but this compromised the structural integrity of the rear fuselage, So I have been told. Look at the foxbat SB on their website apropos the rudder cable replacement. I was told by a soar engineer, well he wore a soar jacket and said he was an engineer, they had developed a tool to replace those components but IMHO it was BS. Hence the new rear fuse as part of the YBSK auction. I was told by the horse it was over 35k to get it back in the air. Did anyone notice with numerous aircraft the similarity between leak down tests, i.e., 78/80 for every cylinder?

[Framcicles]

BHI are now using a mix of MFS and Tristar for its students.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Australian Aviation reporting that the (ex) students from SOAR are facing a long wait to get to Court.....

The reported delay until Sept 2022 means that many of the (ex)students will be unable to afford to enroll for alternative qualifications because they have used up their limited VET student loans.

What a 'sh1t' situation to be in!

(Not that there's a 'lot' of vacancies right now.....
Maybe a quick course in tennis could expedite their case, like, have it this weekend...)

[Seabreeze]

So the question has to be asked. How did CASA allow SOAR to continue to operate after having numerous safety events and probably other indirect evidence of shonkiness, and Glen Buckley's APT to be nailed with (as far as I am aware) none.

Also how does Box Hill institute continue to function? TEQSA should have shut down the accreditation after the SOAR problems started to surface.

I reckon more names need to appear in this forum to let us all know who are the incompetent shonks.

Seabreeze

[Squawk7700]

The $33m update.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/tafe-to-pay-33m-for-failed-flight-courses/ar-AA14LknM?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=52ee6a8230dd4a83bedcc5a3191bb187

[Sunfish]

The Age is reporting that only around 10% of the approximately 1000 students got their CPL.

[PiperCameron]

The Age is reporting that only around 10% of the approximately 1000 students got their CPL.

What's that my accountant is always saying: "There are lies, damned lies.. and statistics"?? There are all kinds of reasons some Soar students didn't get their tickets. Soar were selling most flavours RPC, RPL, PPL, CPL, ME whilst they could so it wasn't just a few CPL students that missed out, there were a host of others also. Some I know quit when they could and headed for the relative safety of other YMMB flight schools, some got scared off flying altogether while still others hung on and got clobbered right royally.

(As a small aside, I do find it amusing that the 08 Sep ERSA entry for YMMB specifically added RAAus aircraft to the PPR list. Maybe, like many who grew up herding Foxbats in the circuit, they never want to see one of them yellow perils ever again. :E )

[43Inches]

The Age is reporting that only around 10% of the approximately 1000 students got their CPL.

There might also be a factor in this regarding having a go at something because there's no perceived risk. I've seen a lot of students throw HECS money around like its free cash, which in a way it is until you start earning, it should never have been allowed for pilot courses as it was always going to be abused. Sign up for a flying course, why not, charge it to the Gov. Few months later, nah this sucks I'm going to do a trade... I know numerous individuals that have debts from flying training and never made it to commercial level for various reasons. One thing I've found in common about young people and flying training, not many look into the fine print or contingency plans. Fastest route to the shiny jet, Tally Ho!

(As a small aside, I do find it amusing that the 08 Sep ERSA entry for YMMB specifically added RAAus aircraft to the PPR list. Maybe, like many who grew up herding Foxbats in the circuit, they never want to see one of them yellow perils ever again. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif )

To be fair it's probably more the operator than the machine.

[Clare Prop]

nearly 10 mill of that in legal and administration fees!
Those poor students! How many of them were involved in the class action?
And Neel gets away with it.
Supreme Court approves Soar Payout - Australian Flying (https://www.australianflying.com.au/latest/supreme-court-approves-soar-payout)

[Squawk7700]

I personally worked with the Kingston Council (Moorabbin) and RAAus to get the $300+ landing fee for RAAus aircraft removed! Happened a few months ago.

It was about landing fee collection, not the aircraft or operator.

[Sunfish]

ymmb is still off limits since it’s class D airspace. No entry without a PPL and medical and a factory built aircraft. There is nothing about reduced charges on their website. I can’t wait for it to be redeveloped, then the NIMBYs can complain about traffic, parking, crime and pollution. The developers are just the usual sharks and should be treated as such. A plague on the lot of them.

[Squawk7700]

ymmb is still off limits since it’s class D airspace. No entry without a PPL and medical and a factory built aircraft. There is nothing about reduced charges on their website. I can’t wait for it to be redeveloped, then the NIMBYs can complain about traffic, parking, crime and pollution. The developers are just the usual sharks and should be treated as such. A plague on the lot of them.

The landing fees will be updated in the next release of the usage agreement. I’m not sure when it’s due.

I’m not sure where you get your little outbursts from, as I’ve been operating my amateur built aircraft into YMMB legally for years!

[tossbag]

The Age is reporting that only around 10% of the approximately 1000 students got their CPL.

​​​​​​​Horse****, less than 10%

[Clare Prop]

ymmb is still off limits since it’s class D airspace. No entry without a PPL and medical and a factory built aircraft. There is nothing about reduced charges on their website. I can’t wait for it to be redeveloped, then the NIMBYs can complain about traffic, parking, crime and pollution. The developers are just the usual sharks and should be treated as such. A plague on the lot of them.

Plenty of RAAus aircraft operate at Jandakot, including for flying training.
Squawk, not sure why they should be exempted from landing fees, why should GA/ratepayers be subsidising them?

[Squawk7700]

Plenty of RAAus aircraft operate at Jandakot, including for flying training.
Squawk, not sure why they should be exempted from landing fees, why should GA/ratepayers be subsidising them?

RAAus are not exempt from landing fees. Their register is available to airport operators, just not the general public.

[Egipps]

ymmb is still off limits since it’s class D airspace. No entry without a PPL and medical and a factory built aircraft. There is nothing about reduced charges on their website. I can’t wait for it to be redeveloped, then the NIMBYs can complain about traffic, parking, crime and pollution. The developers are just the usual sharks and should be treated as such. A plague on the lot of them.
Seriously this is incorrect. Experimental, homebuilt VH registered aircraft are definitely allowed into YMMB. Quite a few are kept there. RPL's are okay, and probably RPC but I'm not sure what the deal is for RAAus aircraft. Soar used to have a mix of VH and RAAus aircraft they taught with, and Oasis teaches in RAAus registered Jabiru's out of Moorabbin, so it definitely isn't a blanket ban.

[Stikman]

Egipps, RAAus training may be conducted from YMMB if the flying school has an exemption either from CAsA or RAAus (can't remember who..). The exemption is renewed anually.
RPC holders cannot operate from YMMB unless they have a CAsA licence as well.

[Sunfish]

It’s not just a ‘CASA Licence”, I’ve got that. It’s the class 2 medical (min $250) and the BFR (min $600 with aircraft hire). It’s poor value for money when you are only an occasional user of controlled airspace and want to drop in to YMEN or YMMB. It’s also a major PITA when touring.

I may be wrong, but I don’t believe other countries have to put up with this BS.

[PiperCameron]

It’s not just a ‘CASA Licence”, I’ve got that. It’s the class 2 medical (min $250) and the BFR (min $600 with aircraft hire). It’s poor value for money when you are only an occasional user of controlled airspace and want to drop in to YMEN or YMMB. It’s also a major PITA when touring.

I may be wrong, but I don’t believe other countries have to put up with this BS.

If not, it's only because they have a single regulatory body responsible for all classes of aviation in their country. We used to.. once upon a time. Now anyone with an RPC is merely a pawn in the never-ceasing pointless battle between RAAus and our not-beloved CA"Safety"A.

[Squawk7700]

Now anyone with an RPC is merely a pawn in the never-ceasing pointless battle between RAAus and our not-beloved CA"Safety"A.

If you believe that, you are horribly mistaken.

Raaus work with CASA in a partnership, not as adversary’s.

[PiperCameron]

If you believe that, you are horribly mistaken.

Raaus work with CASA in a partnership, not as adversary’s.

If by your definition of a "partnership" it's okay to fight every so often, then you're right - perhaps I'm being a bit harsh. I guess I'm more used to partnerships that are constructive and where both partners look out for each others interests.

BTW, it's soo much more peaceful in the YMMB circuit without those pesky Foxbats. If only the Oxford Cessnas would keep their circuits within the 3 mile limit, it would be pure bliss!! :)

[john_tullamarine]

circuits within the 3 mile limit, it would be pure bliss!!

Reminds me, years ago. Did some work for Ralph Capponi (thoroughly top chap with a fascinating history) at Essendon and cut out the charges in a session of circuits in his 685. Lovely bird and, with no weight on board, went like the proverbial cut cat. Ralph in the RHS so I didn't kill myself or cook his engines which had all conceivable lines of instrumentation gadgetry. I don't think we went outside the aerodrome boundary fence line on any circuit - Ralph couldn't see the runway except on final. As for singles, never did like being further out than suitable for an engine failure and glide approach ....