Brexit

[Non-PC Plod]

Does anyone know what is the impact of Brexit on licensing?
Does anyone with EASA licences now need to get UK CAA equivalents in addition in order to be able work in UK?
If so, I guess it means jumping through double hoops to maintain all TRs, plus TRI, TRE etc. Kill me now!

[Bell_ringer]

They’ve spent 5 years working out what to do with a fishing license. I’m sure pilot licensing is next :E

[deltahotel]

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=10006

is the validation document to be allowed to operate G reg ac with EASA licence. Valid til end ‘22

[lowfat]

Easa pilots can operate G reg machines for 2 years under the agreement before this deal. this deal means anybody's guess at this time. ( 6 hours after the announcement)

[deltahotel]

Ps. This validation document effectively becomes part of your non Uk licence and must be carried in the same way as your licence.

[SFIM]

All ratings and authorisations continue with the validation document as i understand it (according to the CAA webinar) inc FE TRE TRI etc.

the problem may be the other way, as soon as you need to revalidate a EASA rating, a U.K. FE TRE can’t do it as I understand it; unless the Brexit deal changes that.

[deltahotel]

SFIM. The problem is indeed the other way around, which is why I am changing SOLI to EASA so that with my TRE hat on I will be able to sign EASA licences.

[Non-PC Plod]

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=10006

is the validation document to be allowed to operate G reg ac with EASA licence. Valid til end ‘22
Many thanks- that is at least a good step in the right direction!

[deltahotel]

It is and hopefully this gives two years to work out mutual recognition for the future.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I had a look at the 120ood page agreement posted on the Gov websitehttps://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948104/EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf#page221

It looks to me as though our Licences will remain recognised by the EU states. Has anyone else come to this conclusion.

I believe both parties have to vote the agreement valid.

[deltahotel]

I can’t read anything referring to licences and I think that mutual recognition may be for the future. For now it’s important to have a licence matching the ac Reg plus a validation if it’s EASA licence on UK ac. I’d be delighted to be wrong about all of this!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Look at the definition of Certificate in the document. It includes licences. It then clearly states mutual recognition of each other’s certificates. in the agreement

[deltahotel]

I can’t see a definition of Certificate in the Air Transport section?

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Look at AVSAF definitions and the the statement in AVSAF-4 in respect of certificates.

[FlyingFrl]

Any one any information regarding the following?

Will it be possible to transfer a UK CAA license to an EASA License later down the road? Or does this mean all the EASA atpl exams have to be retaken?

Is it possible to have a UK CAA license and an EASA license valid at the same time? (As EASA will see the UK license as a 3rd country license?

[hueyracer]

The answer to your first question is depending on the agreements that will be signed later on....
Brexit does not necessarily mean that the UK also will leave the EASA (agreements).....Maybe they will sign something to maintain EASA licenses (which i doubt)....

In my opinion, it will be no problem maintaining both licenses (UK and EASA) if there is no other agreement....

[Aucky]

The first objective of the title is to “enable the reciprocal acceptance, as provided for in the Annexes to this Title, of findings of compliance made and certificates issued by either Party’s competent authorities or approved organisations;”

It seems certificates includes licences.

The scope of the areas they may cooperate on include:

(a) airworthiness certificates and monitoring of civil aeronautical products;
(b) environmental certificates and testing of civil aeronautical products;
(c) design and production certificates and monitoring of design and production organisations;
(d) maintenance organisation certificates and monitoring of maintenance organisations;
(e) personnel licensing and training;
(f) flight simulator qualification evaluation;
(g) operation of aircraft;
(h) air traffic management and air navigation services; and
(i) other areas related to aviation safety subject to Annexes to the Convention.

One annexe exists so far involving airworthiness and environmental cooperation. There is no annexe published relating to personnel licensing and training but it looks set to be included down the line...

“The Specialised Committee on Aviation Safety may only adopt Annexes as referred to in paragraph 2 where each Party has established that the civil aviation standards, rules, practices, procedures and systems of the other Party ensure a sufficiently equivalent level of safety to permit acceptance of findings of compliance made and certificates issued by its competent authorities or by organisations approved by that competent authority”.... Shouldn’t be too tricky for personnel licensing if we remain largely aligned with Part-FCL.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

That’s also how I understood it. However, before the relevant annex is issue what happens in the short term.

[Aucky]

That’s also how I understood it. However, before the relevant annex is issue what happens in the short term.

I can only imagine that in the absence of published annexes for cooperation then the same arrangements which were in place prior to the deal being announced as published by the CAA in all of their recent communications. https://youtube.com/user/UKCAA

[Same again]

In practical terms - I have just been informed by an EU based operator that they cannot offer me a contract until I have converted my (now) UK ATPL(H) to an EASA licence. I think many of us had assumed (never a good idea) that there would be some form of mutual recognition. It seems that recognition is only one-way at the moment and that EASA licensed pilots can fly G reg for another 2 years but UK pilots cannot fly EASA reg from 1st January (quelle surprise!). Maybe a I should try the European Court of Justice ;-)

[hueyracer]

In practical terms - I have just been informed by an EU based operator that they cannot offer me a contract until I have converted my (now) UK ATPL(H) to an EASA licence. I think many of us had assumed (never a good idea) that there would be some form of mutual recognition. It seems that recognition is only one-way at the moment and that EASA licensed pilots can fly G reg for another 2 years but UK pilots cannot fly EASA reg from 1st January (quelle surprise!). Maybe a I should try the European Court of Justice ;-)


You are confusing two things here:

One is the agreement between two authorities; the other the reaction of one company...

See it from the company pov:
They hire you with your UK license, then EASA decided that UK licenses are not EASA licenses, and hence UK licensed pilots cannot fly EASA registered machines.
Now the company had already invested money in your hiring process and training.....and they will need to lay you off, and start looking for another candidate...

Would you go that route-or would you rather hire an EASA licensed pilot from the getgo?

[ApolloHeli]

UK issued (ex-EASA) licences are not automatically recognised in EASA member states to fly EASA aircraft. I've been explicitly told by the Swiss FOCA that a UK issued licence is treated as a "third country" licence and as such would require a case-by-case application for a limited time validation to be issued. The recognition is not mutual. I assume the same applies for other EASA member states but your mileage may vary.

[Same again]

I don't believe that I am confusing the situation. In my particular case the employment was be a short term contract in EU which I cannot be considered for because my UK licence from 1st Jan is non-EASA and is regarded as a 'third country' licence. Meanwhile EASA licence holders can fly in UK for up to 2 years during which time (I am told) they can obtain a UK CAA licence without taking any exams. Seems not only British fishermen were shafted in the 'deal'.

[Same again]

Well I think we all know that EASA licenced pilots are flying G registered aircraft in UK airspace so there must be some other caveat that allows that.

[handysnaks]

This surely cannot be a surprise to anyone?
In every pprune, facebook or twitter interaction I have seen regarding brexit. The one thing people who voted leave were united about and always keen to stress is that they knew what they were voting for.

[ApolloHeli]

Interesting. The separate validation for Swiss EASA licence holders allows the operation of G reg aircraft both inside and outside UK airspace. I was wondering why there were two separate validations and now it makes sense. Here's the extract for those curious:

The CAA hereby renders valid, for the purpose of operating an aircraft on the United Kingdom “G” register within and outside of UK airspace, such Part-FCL pilot licences that were issued in accordance with Swiss Law by FOCA, and which continue to be effective on and after 31 December 2020 by virtue of Official Record Series 4 No. XXXX.

[Same again]

A reason that many (I am reliably informed) voted for Brexit was that whenever Brussels imposed new rules we - the law abiding UK - would always comply whereas EU states only did so when it suited them. It seems that even though we are no longer members of that illustrious partisan club we are still being shafted. Plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose.

[Ovc000]

Here we go .....
told you so.:-).

UK CAA has published and updated their website regularly regarding the effects of Brexit and anyone with still a UK license now complaining that EASA is not recognising their license......tough luck.
The reason EASA pilots can fly a G-reg in the UK is (correct me if I'm worng) the 2 out of 3 rule.
G-reg in G country with a foreign but recognised license, 2 out of 3 so it's legal since.
Flying a EI-reg heli in Ireland with your UK license is to my knowledge not allowed since the license you have is for EASA worth nothing, so 2 out of 3 doesn't apply since there is no nr. 3.
(Country, Reg, License)

[Same again]

Of course. Sounds to me as if you work for EASA.

UK CAA has published and updated their website regularly regarding the effects of Brexit and anyone with still a UK license now complaining that EASA is not recognising their license......tough luck

If that is the case then I am surely the only pilot left in UK with a UK licence? They must be happy in FCL down at Aviation House.

[Ovc000]

[QUOTE=Same again;10973952]Of course. Sounds to me as if you work for EASA.
Very close but not haha. I work in Gatwick for the C..

[Same again]

Then perhaps you are the prefect person to answer a question for me please? (cheque is in the post :-) I was under the impression that pilots could only hold one EASA licence. When I worked in Ireland some time ago I changed my ATPL(H) to ICAA but had to relinquish my UK licence. If most UK pilots (and if it means not being able to fly in EU without one - why wouldn't they?) have been changing to EASA state licences recently then it must mean that they no longer have UK licences. Seems a strange state of affairs to me and would seriously effect UK CAA FCL revenues would it not?

Excuse my ignorance but I have been working in warmer climes for years using FAA and CASA licences so have not paid much attention to Brexit developments.

[Medevac999]

Here we go .....
told you so.:-).

UK CAA has published and updated their website regularly regarding the effects of Brexit and anyone with still a UK license now complaining that EASA is not recognising their license......tough luck.
The reason EASA pilots can fly a G-reg in the UK is (correct me if I'm worng) the 2 out of 3 rule.
G-reg in G country with a foreign but recognised license, 2 out of 3 so it's legal since.
Flying a EI-reg heli in Ireland with your UK license is to my knowledge not allowed since the license you have is for EASA worth nothing, so 2 out of 3 doesn't apply since there is no nr. 3.
(Country, Reg, License)

Well lets hope the operators in the UK favour home grown UK issued FCL. And recruit accordingly!

[deltahotel]

I’m not sure that all that many U.K. pilots are converting to EASA if they are currently G reg employed. I can’t thinkof any in my airline other than TREs (inc me) to enable me to sign EASA licences.

[Same again]

I have been unaware of the changes as I have been working outside the EU for some time. Considering the instability of aviation employment I would have thought that most UK pilots would want to make themselves as employable as possible, so I am surprised to learn that the take-up of EASA licences has not been greater. I fly rotary but I do see many UK based low-cost airlines that are EU registered.

[berlioz]

This is a job advertisement from a big Offshore and Onshore helicopter services provider.....

"• Currently we are only able to accept UK Part FCL Licences or UK issued EASA Licences."

The door is getting smaller

[Northernstar]

This is a job advertisement from a big Offshore and Onshore helicopter services provider.....

"• Currently we are only able to accept UK Part FCL Licences or UK issued EASA Licences."

The door is getting smaller

I have read the same advert. Absolute HR nonsense given several of their pilots including management recently moved licences to EASA states. Indeed another North Sea operator encourage pilots to move to Sweden for their entire U.K. AOC operation and a third did the same for some of their U.K. training department.

[Evil Twin]

Pardon the naïveté but surely you can apply and hold both an English and also a European licence, in much the same way that you can hold OZ, NZ, FAA etc.? Or is that a far too simplistic view given the unwieldy bureaucracy of the UK and the European Union(sic).

[ApolloHeli]

Pardon the naïveté but surely you can apply and hold both an English and also a European licence, in much the same way that you can hold OZ, NZ, FAA etc.? Or is that a far too simplistic view given the unwieldy bureaucracy of the UK and the European Union(sic).

Ovc000 may be more informed than me, but from my understanding that is perfectly acceptable. The UK CAA have told me they will begin issuing UK Part FCL licences starting in April 2021. Why they are waiting till April, when the rules changed in January I have no idea. Maybe that would be too efficient. But from my understanding an EASA licence holder need only request a UK Part FCL licence and then in the usual CAA turnaround time of far too long, they will receive a UK licence (in addition to holding their EASA licence).

I would be happy to be corrected, or given more information.

[Same again]

Evil Twin,

Well now that we have left the EU my UK ATPL(H) is now not an EASA licence and has reverted to a UK CAA licence. It is, I suppose, possible to apply for an EASA licence directly to one of the EASA states but if the message on the Irish CAA licensing website is any indicator then it might be problematic:

"Holders of UK issued Part-FCL licences may not change their Competent Authority to Ireland since 23:00 Irish Time on 31 December 2020"

[lowfat]

You needed to change states before the uk left. Currently they no longer recognise the uk licence . So you would need to apply from the beginning.

[berlioz]

Ovc000 may be more informed than me, but from my understanding that is perfectly acceptable. The UK CAA have told me they will begin issuing UK Part FCL licences starting in April 2021. Why they are waiting till April, when the rules changed in January I have no idea. Maybe that would be too efficient. But from my understanding an EASA licence holder need only request a UK Part FCL licence and then in the usual CAA turnaround time of far too long, they will receive a UK licence (in addition to holding their EASA licence).

I would be happy to be corrected, or given more information.
Wont you need for that also to get a medical class1 in the country (CAA) the issues the licence?

[Same again]

I have a few ICAO licences and the issuing country will generally give credit for your licence, log book hours and type ratings. To issue the licence the new country requires a medical examination, an air law exam and a flight test. I doubt it will be quite that simple in EASA land for a 'third country' licence.

I anticipate that the requirements will be similar to a 10,000 hour Australian CASA ATPL(H) CIR holder applying for a UK licence - all 14 ground examinations, a medical, a flight test, type rating examination and a sizeable bank loan.

[Medevac999]

I have read the same advert. Absolute HR nonsense given several of their pilots including management recently moved licences to EASA states. Indeed another North Sea operator encourage pilots to move to Sweden for their entire U.K. AOC operation and a third did the same for some of their U.K. training department.

The FOM has actually posted the advert on LinkedIn and states that they are only taking UK FCL because of their ATO and lack of flexibility by some EASA countries.

[Variable Load]

I have read the same advert. Absolute HR nonsense given several of their pilots including management recently moved licences to EASA states. Indeed another North Sea operator encourage pilots to move to Sweden for their entire U.K. AOC operation and a third did the same for some of their U.K. training department.

Not nonsense, but a pragmatic approach until EASA enable some sort of reciprocity.

First problem is finding a UK based AME to conduct an EASA medical. As far as I know there is one in London that is approved ONLY by Austrocontrol , but EASA are insisting that the AMEs have to apply to each NAA to obtain individual approvals. The NAAs are not making things easy, e.g. I believe the Swedes are insisting that the AME speaks Swedish.

Second problem is that a UK licensed TRE is now not allowed to conduct a licence PC or Skills Test on an EASA licence holder.

Third problem is that a UK ATO can not conduct any ATO activity on an EASA licence holder e.g. initial Type Rating or Type Rating/IR renewal.

Perhaps Northernstar can explain how he would overcome these issues?

[ApolloHeli]

First problem is finding a UK based AME to conduct an EASA medical. As far as I know there is one in London that is approved ONLY by Austrocontrol , but EASA are insisting that the AMEs have to apply to each NAA to obtain individual approvals.

That's not true. I've spoken with that particular London-based AME, as well as with my own NAA's aeromedical section and they confirmed that despite the AME being approved by Austrocontrol (not my NAA), they are able to revalidate my EASA Class 1 medical in the UK. Yes it's a pain to travel from Aberdeen down to London, but I don't see why the medical would be a factor in Babcock's strange recruiting limitation.

[Aucky]

Second problem is that a UK licensed TRE is now not allowed to conduct a licence PC or Skills Test on an EASA licence holder.

Third problem is that a UK ATO can not conduct any ATO activity on an EASA licence holder e.g. initial Type Rating or Type Rating/IR renewal.

Perhaps Northernstar can explain how he would overcome these issues?

FCL.900(c) & FCL.1000(c)

[Variable Load]

That's not true. I've spoken with that particular London-based AME, as well as with my own NAA's aeromedical section and they confirmed that despite the AME being approved by Austrocontrol (not my NAA), they are able to revalidate my EASA Class 1 medical in the UK. Yes it's a pain to travel from Aberdeen down to London, but I don't see why the medical would be a factor in Babcock's strange recruiting limitation.

I'm no expert on AME approvals, but what you have written goes against what is being said by the AME based in Peterculter. No doubt things will become clearer over time, but the fact that only one AME in the UK has managed to obtain EASA approval speaks volumes that this isn't straightforward.

For a business to have to travel it's pilots to London for a medical is an unnecessary expense and complication. If it can be avoided, why not avoid it?

As mentioned earlier, the medical complication is only one consideration. There are others. If their decision doesn't suit you as an individual, it doesn't mean their decision is incorrect.

[Northernstar]

Not nonsense, but a pragmatic approach until EASA enable some sort of reciprocity.

First problem is finding a UK based AME to conduct an EASA medical. As far as I know there is one in London that is approved ONLY by Austrocontrol , but EASA are insisting that the AMEs have to apply to each NAA to obtain individual approvals. The NAAs are not making things easy, e.g. I believe the Swedes are insisting that the AME speaks Swedish.

Second problem is that a UK licensed TRE is now not allowed to conduct a licence PC or Skills Test on an EASA licence holder.

Third problem is that a UK ATO can not conduct any ATO activity on an EASA licence holder e.g. initial Type Rating or Type Rating/IR renewal.

Perhaps Northernstar can explain how he would overcome these issues?

Well if you read my post again then you’ll see that clearly the operators themselves have found said solution to questions 2 and 3 where necessary especially if they have taken it upon themselves to encourage some to move state and even moved state for their own TRE’s. Indeed some have both U.K. and easa ATO’s, onshore U.K. ATO’s have begun the same. Medical as described can be done in U.K. and more AME’s will follow. Some EASA states are pragmatic.

My post was also calling HR nonsense as opposed to EASA or company ATO processes. But that may have been misinterpreted.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Hi All, sorry to jump in but I have recently gone through the SOLI Transfer (State Of Licence Issue). The deadline on the UK CAA website to effect a transfer was 24/12/2020. I submitted on 22/12/2020. The CAA were very proactive and supportive.

Some things I learned along the way:

1. As of 01/01/2021 UK issued EASA Licences revert to 3rd Country Licences
2. The Brexit Trade Deal signed on 24/12/2020 has a mechanism in AVSAF-01 for mutual recognition of each others "Certificates" which in the definitions to the section include Flight Crew Licences. However, the text refers to "Annexes". The only "Annex" issued at the moment covers the mutual recognition of design certificates. It not clear whether there is a future intent to issue the missing Annexes..
3. In the SOLI process the applicant must relinquish the existing EASA Licence to take up the new one.
4. UK CAA will accept applications to issue a "National" Licence from applicants who previously held UK CAA EASA Licences from April 2021. The detail of how this will work they are going to publish on SKYWISE.

In my opinion, the CAA tried there very best to get mutual recognition but have been defeated by the political process.

DB

[Variable Load]

DB is correct, the UK CAA appear to have been very pragmatic in their approach. They continue to recognise EASA certificates that were in place on 31st December for a period of up to 2 years or until it's next renewal. This applies to non-UK issued licences, TRE certificates, medicals, simulator certification, etc. They also have a blanket validation for EASA licenced pilots to continue to fly UK registered aircraft.

Has any UK licenced pilot managed to obtain an EASA State validation to fly a commercial aircraft registered to an EASA State?

To pick up on Aucky's earlier Part FCL references, does sub para (c) (2) (i) rule this option out for any training conducted within the EASA states e.g. simulators in France, Italy, Norway or Finland? Has any UK TRE managed to obtain an "EASA" TRE certificate?

[cyclic]

There is an AME in Stansted that has a Maltese approval. So that’s definitely two in the UK!

[deltahotel]

https://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/638113-easa-class-1-medical.html

[Aucky]

To pick up on Aucky's earlier Part FCL references, does sub para (c) (2) (i) rule this option out for any training conducted within the EASA states e.g. simulators in France, Italy, Norway or Finland? Has any UK TRE managed to obtain an "EASA" TRE certificate?

I believe it does, but I don’t have first hand experience of how this applies to simulators, and whether they are treated any differently to an aircraft being operated in that country. It would however allow training and testing of EASA licence holders in the U.K. subject to approval from an EASA NAA. I believe that once you have completed the process of standardisation and assessment with that NAA you have the privilege to train/examine for any other EASA NAA, subject to staying up to speed with the relevant NAA’s examiner differences document.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Has any UK TRE managed to obtain an "EASA" TRE certificate?
Hi VL, I have been issued a TRE certificate from my new host EASA state based on the SOLI Transfer of my UK-EASA Issued ATPL(H) and TRE Certificate. It was very straight forward and facilitated by the CAA Form 155 that was issued. The 155 is the document that passes between EASA States to verify the qualifications and authorisation held in the first state. My understanding now is, as the deadline has passed, such transfers are no longer possible.
As it stand, it would appear that UK TREs are in a worst position than we were under the JAR rules where we had to complete State Briefings to certify fellow JAR State licences. As a "Third Country" we have been demoted to Pond Life. Such a shame for all the hard work and dedication those TREs have put in previously. Lorry Drivers have come off better.
Like I said, it was not the intent of the CAA. They simply wanted mutual recognition based on us continuing to follow the EASA rules. My understanding is that due to the morons in the Country and Government who cannot understanding the difference between Sovereignty and Mutual co-operation, we are left in a really poor situation. EASA was a great level playing field and now we are now not allowed to see the match let alone
kick the ball.
Maybe we can all seek solace in eating the Langoustines that are now trapped in the UK and not lavished onto the dining tables of our French Brothers.

[Variable Load]

Hi DB, I've also been through the SOLI Transfer process and plan to apply for the UK licence as soon as is possible. A agree, now that the transition period has ended, SOLI Transfer is no longer an option for UK licence holders. EASA licence holders will be able to apply for a UK licence from April, although the CAA have stated this will be much easier for those with a "UK history".

My earlier question "Has any UK TRE managed to obtain an "EASA" TRE certificate?" was badly worded. My question related to Aucky highlighting that FCL.900 (c) and 1000 (c) does provide some provision for a Third Country Instructor/Examiner (read UK licenced TRI/TRE post 31st December) to obtain an EASA TRI/TRE authorisation. I wondered if anyone had used this provision successfully. If they have, I wonder what limitations are attached. My read is that it is intended to enable flight training and checking for initial licencing purposes to take place outside of the EASA States e.g. flight schools conducting CPL training in USA, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

The situation is an unnecessary mess, as mutual alignment and recognition of licencing standards between EASA and UK is such an easy win. It just needs political will, however that will is totally lacking on both sides. To think that EASA is still pursuing FAA licence reciprocity just shows how crazy this situation is.

[jimf671]

A reason that many (I am reliably informed) voted for Brexit was that whenever Brussels imposed new rules we - the law abiding UK - would always comply whereas EU states only did so when it suited them. It seems that even though we are no longer members of that illustrious partisan club we are still being shafted. Plus ca change plus c'est la meme chose.

This whole business falls out of ignorance of how we are governed, at any level. Particularly regarding EU legislation, this is illustrated by the difference between a Directive and a Regulation. A regulation is law and a directive is not and allows member states to pick their own path.

A perfect example is speed limiters on trucks. A fire brigade operating a national resource that they wanted to be able to deploy anywhere in the country talked to the RAF about airlifting the vehicles because, being limited to 90km/h, the vehicle could not get anywhere fast. The Directive explicitly exempts emergency service, military and certain utility vehicles (Art.6 IIRC) yet the UK Govt enforces it in such a way that emergency service drivers transporting life-saving apparatus across large distances were forced to travel at 56mph. Successive UK Governments keen on too much law, and their compliant bureaucrats, have been the problem all along and look where we are now.

Long past the time when we should have started calling stupid by its real name.

[Milo C]

https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/bilateral-agreements/eu-uk-trade-and-cooperation-agreement

[Same again]

Has anyone been brave enough to read and decipher?

[Variable Load]

Has anyone been brave enough to read and decipher?

That page and the documents have been there for a few weeks now. What I can't work out for sure is what has changed, as EASA sent out an 'update' notification this morning.

Does anyone know what has been amended or added? I think it might be the Working Arrangement with Switzerland.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Has anyone been brave enough to read and decipher?

If you are referring to the Trade Agreement, yes I have read the AVSAF part. As stated on the EASA website, there is a clear statement and mechanism for the mutual recognition of Compliance findings and Certificates of each party (this includes each others FCL Licences). However, the statement refers to the "Annexes" of which the only one in the detailed list that has been issued concerns certification of aircraft and components. Now I am trying to not be cynical as I slide gently towards my 6th decade, however, I suspect the very large AIRBUS FW component industry in the UK may have caused France to stamps its "pied" to ensure UK wings get glued to European fuselages.

In my SOLI Transfer process, someone in "the system" told me that UK CAA made best efforts for this mutual recognition to be in place. However, to facilitate this the UK had to agree to be bound by certain European Legislation (otherwise no certainty of compliance is assured). Despite the fact the UK is legally bound by many treaties already, such as the ICAO Chicago Convention, NATO etc the UK Negotiating team were not empowered to agree to be bound by the necessary legislation. Hence, the annexes relevant to FCL etc are not issued.

I believe it is for this reason that neither the UK CAA nor EASA are able to make any statements relevant to future co-operation and specifically whether these annexes will ever be issued.

UK CAA meanwhile, treated like a mushroom by the politicians, ended up agreeing to unilateral recognition of EU Members FCLs for a 2 year period and also have made a fast track process for those EU members caught up in the debacle to get UK National Licences if and when they need them. Of course that is good news for all our fellow EU Rotorheads who have made their home and lives in the UK working for UK AOCs.For those of us on the opposite side of that fence....well lets say the Big Rabbit got F**ked!

For my own experience, the UK CAA were extremely helpful is facilitating my SOLI Transfer. This process means I give up my UK Part-FCL Licence. However, they have made a commitment to a simple pathway in April for those of us who had to Transfer to be re-issued with a UK National licence once again.

I have to say that I was a great advocate of EASA. I believe they simplified a whole range of protocols and procedures to our benefit even if it seemed at some time to do otherwise. Much of the regulations and rules originating in dear old Blighty.

My wife just received her new "Blue" Passport, (I believe made in France) and my VW Toureg did not self destruct on my driveway at midnight on 31/12/2020. So maybe in a few years we will look back and see a small storm in a very small teacup. Who really knows what the bejesus is going on anyway!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

That page and the documents have been there for a few weeks now. What I can't work out for sure is what has changed, as EASA sent out an 'update' notification this morning.

Does anyone know what has been amended or added? I think it might be the Working Arrangement with Switzerland.
Could be the Norwegian statement they are referring to.

[berlioz]

Having come late to the party in discovering this issue...can anyone recommend what EU state is the best/most simple to transfer my licence to?

Thanks

I would say France, but i don´t have my licence there. Just saying from some feedback i got. seems that you can do a lot online and via the postal office. Fast replying and diligent to solve problems.

[Variable Load]

Having come late to the party in discovering this issue...can anyone recommend what EU state is the best/most simple to transfer my licence to?

Thanks

If you currently hold a UK licence, unfortunately you are not just late but you cannot join the party.

It is no longer possible to use the SOLI transfer process from the UK to another EASA state. This was only possible prior to 1st January 2021.

The EU-UK Trade and Cooperation deal does allow for reciprocity on certificates (read licences), however feedback at the moment indicates that EASA won't have anything in place this year. There's also no indication how difficult EASA will make the process or what additional requirements they may insist on e.g. resitting exams, etc.

[Same again]

Hargreaves99. I think like many of us there was an assumption that there would be some kind of reciprocity between UK and EU in terms of licensing but sadly that is not the case. The UK has agreed to allow EASA licences to be used to fly G-reg in UK but EASA will not now recognise UK licences that are now regraded as 'third country'. So as Variable Load said you are too late.

Also it appears that you cannot even attempt to convert your UK licence to an EASA licence as there is no such animal as a 'UK licence' at the moment until the CAA get around to issuing one. Meanwhile our EASA licensed friends can fly in UK for 2 years and then get a 'free' UK licence issued to them - and they get to keep their own EASA licence.

[hargreaves99]

ok, so.... if I am offered a job in an EU country (flying an EU registered aircraft), and I have a UK issued EASA ATPL(H)...what do I do?

CAA website states this:

UK-issued Part-FCL licences will not be valid to operate EU-registered aircraft.

To continue operating EU-registered aircraft, you may seek a licence validation from any of the EASA Competent Authorities, which would be valid for aircraft registered in any EASA Member State.

We recommend that you speak to the relevant NAA as soon as possible about the process for achieving a validation of your UK issued Part-FCL licence.

Alternatively, you may undertake a State of Licence Issue transfer. This means transferring your licence from the UK to an EASA member state.

To transfer a Part FCL to a new State of Licence, a request to transfer your licence and a separate request to transfer your medical records must be submitted to the CAA. In addition, a request to become the applicant’s new State of Licence must be submitted to the receiving NAA.

An application cannot be progressed until all three of these requests along with supporting documentation and appropriate fees have been submitted.

[Same again]

You will not be be eligible as you do not have an EASA licence anymore. So as you no longer have the right to work in EU and no longer have an EASA licence you will not be eligible - much the same as any Third Country citizen.

[Same again]

Not sure - it may have been good advice last year but I have been researching options and - although I have not tried every State - the ones that I have all sing from the same sheet - "You no longer have an EASA licence (from 01.01.21) so you cannot request SOLI transfer."

The UK EASA licence is now effectively only valid in UK or for flying G-reg outside UK. To operate anywhere else you will need a validation of your UK CAA licence (when you get one issued). A validation is normally an Air Law exam of the country you want to fly in plus a flight test plus a work visa. I suspect that it will not be quite that straightforward when dealing with our 'friends and partners in EU'.

[Same again]

Well you are in limbo-land as you don't have an EASA licence so cannot convert with SOLI and you don't yet have a UK CAA licence. Go ahead and try but I think you will find out what I have just wasted 2 weeks of my life to discover. You still have an ICAO licence so can apply for validation of that in most countries outside EU but in terms of EU employment where you need an EASA licence, your UK EASA licence at the moment is worthless as it is neither EASA - nor UK as yet.

[Variable Load]

Also it appears that you cannot even attempt to convert your UK licence to an EASA licence as there is no such animal as a 'UK licence' at the moment until the CAA get around to issuing one. .

Not technically true. That piece of paper that last year was an EASA licence is now a UK licence. If you were to have a change of address or a new Type Rating, etc the CAA will send you a licence that didn't say EASA on it.

[Same again]

Theoretically yes. But the CAA do not expect to be issuing new UK CAA licences (dark blue covers I would imagine) until April 2021. So if you are not changing address or have a rating change then you will still have a non-existent UK EASA licence - that the EU do not recognise - and that you cannot use to validate your UK CAA with an EASA State.

[621andy]

I've been hit by this as a commercial balloon pilot. We were all pushed into getting the shiny new UK EASA BPL(Balloon Pilots Licence) at the back end of 2019 as we were informed we could no longer fly commercially after April 2020. This we were told would future proof us and allow us to play in Europe too. For another 35 quid we could keep our old UK CPLs for use in countries that accept them(Such as Myanmar where I spend my winters).

Anyway, now my lovely piece of A4 is now just expensive bog roll as I live in Germany and fly the summers in France.

Luckily I still have a French national licence which I'm currently transferring. It expired in June last year as I'd let it lapse due to the new UK licence. I was told by our man on the inside not to even mention the fact that I have a UK EASA licence and just to provide proof that I'd completed the requirements for the revalidation of my French licence and they'd then issue me an EASA equivalent on the back of it...However I suspect even the very friendly and easy going staff in the DSAC office in Marignane will find something that doesn't line up...

[Variable Load]

Theoretically yes. But the CAA do not expect to be issuing new UK CAA licences (dark blue covers I would imagine) until April 2021. So if you are not changing address or have a rating change then you will still have a non-existent UK EASA licence - that the EU do not recognise - and that you cannot use to validate your UK CAA with an EASA State.

Sorry Same Again you are wrong, you do have a UK licence. The colour of the plastic cover is irrelevant.

The lack of EASA reciprocity is nothing to do with the licence you hold, or the CAA. This is bound up in political dogma in the EU.

[handysnaks]

The lack of EASA reciprocity is nothing to do with the licence you hold, or the CAA. This is bound up in political dogma in the EU.
I think you may find it was the UK that voted to become a third country. As everyone apparently knew what they were voting for, then it follows that they knew what being a third country meant. The degree of hardness of the brexit chosen (and for the purposes of this thread, the decision to leave EASA), was a deliberate choice of the party elected into parliament with an 80 seat majority.
So I would say that it is far more to do with the political dogma of the governing party in Westminster than it is the political dogma of the EU

[Same again]

If the Brexit EASA issue is caused by the inflexible and autocratic 'political dogma' of the UK then why do EASA licences pilots continue to be allowed to fly G-reg in UK? Surely EASA licences must be considered to be third country by UK?

[Same again]

I imagine if you are current, type-rated and experienced up the ying-yang it won't trouble European employers too much to do the paperwork to hire you.


Having put that hypothesis to the test recently, I would not rely on it.

[Medevac999]

ah, you also need to be aged under 40

why under 40?

[handysnaks]

If the Brexit EASA issue is caused by the inflexible and autocratic 'political dogma' of the UK then why do EASA licences pilots continue to be allowed to fly G-reg in UK? Surely EASA licences must be considered to be third country by UK?

As the UK chose to leave EASA, surely even with the most red, white and blue tinted glasses you can find, you can accept that the ‘Brexit EASA’ issue is caused by the UK?

I agree, EASA licences in the UK are now licences issued by a third country. As to why we’re still accepting them. I don’t kniw, perhaps UK gov were hoping that this little bit of largesse might earn the UK some reciprocity from the EU, perhaps it turns out we need them slightly more than they need us. However, UK chose to leave EASA ( and many other EU institutions such as Euratom and the EMA), because of the political dogma of the conservative party. That is the cause of UK licences no longer being EASA licences.

[Same again]

perhaps it turns out we need them slightly more than they need us.

I doubt that very much. Your credentials are clearly on display but mine was not a political statement. I only raised this here so that others who may be unaware of licence issues are informed that the angle of inclination of the EU playing field has not changed. The 'largess' demonstrated has been treated in the same way as many other unilateral gestures by our former masters.

[handysnaks]

Well, I’ve certainly no intention of hiding my ‘credentials’ but they are irrelevant to this discussion. All I’ve done is write down the facts of where we are. The potential issues have been quite clearly highlighted by the CAA on their website since the withdrawal agreement was signed. I’m guessing that you were fairly happy to leave the EU, well this is what it meant. I don’t say that as a dig, or as an attempt to score some political point, I just can’t work out why you seem surprised.

[Same again]

As an exercise in democracy I am happy that we have finally left the Titanic on our speedboat (their description). No doubt the EU still will do whatever it can to stymie the progress of UK to dissuade other states from leaving. The CAA highlighted 'potential' issues in terms of a no-deal scenario but no-one seemed to know exactly what the terms of a trade deal would mean for licences. Now we know. My surprise (although I suppose I shouldn't be) stems from the fact that the CAA allow EASA licence holders to fly here. If permission was was withdrawn then maybe there would be some incentive for EASA to change their stance. As it is why should they?

[Medevac999]

So the CAA allow a French/Dutch/German (etc) EASA CPL holder to fly a G-reg machine in the UK....yet a UK CAA CPL holder can't fly a foreign registered machine in Europe?

It sounds like the CAA has shafted us

Agreed! Absolutely shafted!!!!

[handysnaks]

To find out who has shafted you, I think you probably need to look to the government rather than the CAA.
Although the webpage below has been withdrawn, the replacement hyperlink leads to a dead end (a metaphor if ever there was one). Anyway, the webpage below relates to what would happen to the aviation sector in the event of a no deal. Although we have a basic Trade and Cooperation Agreement, for the purposes of aviation regulation, it is pretty much like no deal, so the options are the same/ very similar. The end result is the same, it is the Government, not the CAA who have shafted you.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/aviation-safety-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/aviation-safety-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

[highrpm]

I may be missing something, the but the general validation for EU licence holders states ‘outside U.K. airspace’, where as the Swiss validation states ‘inside and outside U.K. airspace’. What is the mechanism to allow EU licence holders to fly within the U.K. ON G-REG aircraft?

[Variable Load]

I may be missing something, the but the general validation for EU licence holders states ‘outside U.K. airspace’, where as the Swiss validation states ‘inside and outside U.K. airspace’. What is the mechanism to allow EU licence holders to fly within the U.K. ON G-REG aircraft?

CAP1714 provides your answer (my emphasis) "All EASA certificates, approvals and licences in effect on 31 December 2020 for use in the UK aviation system and on UK-registered aircraft will be recognised by the CAA for up to two years."

[Uplinker]

All we have to do is threaten to close our airspace to any EU operator transatlantic flights, unless they grant UK pilots the right to fly EU registered aircraft, as we are allowing EU pilots to fly UK registered craft.

[Variable Load]

All we have to do is threaten to close our airspace to any EU operator transatlantic flights, unless they grant UK pilots the right to fly EU registered aircraft, as we are allowing EU pilots to fly UK registered craft.
:confused::confused::oh::oh:

[212man]

All we have to do is threaten to close our airspace to any EU operator transatlantic flights, unless they grant UK pilots the right to fly EU registered aircraft, as we are allowing EU pilots to fly UK registered craft.
I’m reminded of the expression “ it’s better to remain silent and allow people to think you are stupid, rather than open your mouth and dispel all doubts “

[WillyPete]

All we have to do is threaten to close our airspace to any EU operator transatlantic flights, unless they grant UK pilots the right to fly EU registered aircraft, as we are allowing EU pilots to fly UK registered craft.

Are you perhaps familiar with the Chicago Convention's article 5?

[WillyPete]

So the CAA allow a French/Dutch/German (etc) EASA CPL holder to fly a G-reg machine in the UK....yet a UK CAA CPL holder can't fly a foreign registered machine in Europe?

It sounds like the CAA has shafted us

Don't blame the CAA, they're a civil service with no real teeth or bargaining power.
Blame the current government who negotiated these terms, likely after being leaned on by UK operators who hire those foreign pilots.
The airlines simply wouldn't have wanted to sack them and have to replace them with UK pilots.

[HeliboyDreamer]

Equivalence of pilot licences are not fair for the UK, in a sense I feel that UK has been abused by Europe.

It is possible to have a UK license validated by a EU state but only for a limited time and it seem that it is at the discretion of the member state (might need to read the document again) Also if you read the appendix there are some minimum required which mean that if you are a low time pilot you have no chance of getting a validation.

I wish I had spotted this before surely I would have gone for a transfer to EASA, in the end Brexit + COVID have put an end to my prospect of becoming a pilot, I am sure there would be others in the same boat.

Official EU 2020/723 documentation available here https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/regulations/commission-delegated-regulation-eu-2020723

[Same again]

Just received this from my AME.

This message is aimed at our many clents who operate now on non-UK, EASA licences.
Many of you will be aware that we have sought approval from several EASA states, but as of today, 19 Feb 2021, none of us are yet approved. If you need re-validation, or renewal of a non-UK medical in the near future you will need to find somewhere else to be seen.

[Aucky]

For anyone who it stuck for options - an extract from an email received from Gloster Aviation Medicals 03-Feb-21

“We are pleased to announce that Dr Emma Ramsay has now been approved to offer EASA medicals to pilots with EU licences. Her working days are Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.

Please book online in the normal way and choose the EASA option, we have limited the choice to EASA Class 1 only. If you have an EU issued PPL/LAPL licence and require a EASA Class 2/LAPL then please call or email us prior to booking in.

The EASA medical certificates Emma will issue are from Malta, however they are valid for all EU licences.

You will need to complete page 1 of the following form: https://www.transport.gov.mt/TM-CAD-0332-Application-For-a-Medical-Certificate-Class-1-2-and-LAPL-Issue-5.pdf-f6004
Please bring this to your appointment along with your EU licence and current EASA medical certificate.

EASA medicals are an additional £13. Emma is able to do a UK CAA medical at the same time as an EASA medical and in this case the UK CAA medical will be substantially discounted. We will update the ‘Fees’ page of our website in due course.”

[xam135]

Anyone know what the validity of theoretical ATPL (A) exams completed with the UK CAA before the 31st December 2020 and validated by an EASA member state are?

I completed them in late 2019 and had them verified by the Irish IAA. I have a valid IAA PPL but I am being told by my ATO to check if those exams are still valid to use for CPL and IR training.


This is the most relevant information I have found on the EASA website, although I’m still confused as to what is accepted:

“The certificate of completion of the ATPL theoretical knowledge examination issued by the UK civil aviation authority before the end of the transition period is valid and recognised in the EU only until December 31, 2020In order to continue relying on that ATPL theoretical knowledge examination issued by the UK for the purpose of obtaining a Part-FCL license the student should transfer his/her training before January 1, 2021 to a training organisation under oversight of an EASA Member State or EASA. In such case the student should also apply to the competent licensing authority of an EASA Member State for a formal assessment of the further hours of training required. The new EU competent authority will be the one to whom the student will apply for the licence issue.”

Thanks in advance for any help, suggestions etc.!

[FlyingFrl]

hi all,

Does anybody know if it is still possible to convert a non-UK EASA license to a UK CAA License? There is no information anywhere on the internet.
Will it be possible to keep both licenses valid at the same time?
Will the UK CAA accept a non-UK EASA Class 1 Medical?

So many questions, so little answers to find. Hope somebody can help out! Cheers!

[Same again]

I suppose the question is why would you want to do that now? As a non-UK EASA licence holder you are permitted to fly G reg aircraft in UK for up to two years before you need to hold a UK CAA licence.

Once you have been issued with the UK licence (a third country licence) you would be able to retain both. Just as you can hold any number of other licences (apart from another EASA member state).

I imagine that you would be required to have a UK AME medical examination although the UK seem to have relinquished everything else in terms of licensing so perhaps not.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I spoke to CAA in January as I did a SOLI transfer. They said in March they will issue instructions on SKYWISE on how to reclaim our UKCAANational licences for those of us who had to transfer out. We will then be able to hold both licences. The details of how medical and ratings can maintained I suspect will be made clear on the SKYWISE.

[Variable Load]

hi all,
There is no information anywhere on the internet.


Mmmmm.

https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition/commercial-pilots/

[HeliboyDreamer]

Someone has started a petition here https://www.change.org/p/european-aviation-safety-agency-petition-for-the-simplification-of-uk-easa-flight-crew-licence-conversions (sorry if already posted) regarding licence conversion UK <==> EASA.

Not sure how much it can help but worth trying...

[Apate]

The 1st of April is here. The date the CAA were to make available a process for EASA licence holders to apply for a UK licence. Does anyone see anything on the CAA website? Or is it an April Fools joke?

[SARWannabe]

So has anyone who didn’t SOLI their U.K. issued EASA licence pre Jan 1st found the most time efficient way (NAA) for gaining an EASA licence which sees any recognition whatsoever for a U.K. FCL licence?

is it 14 exams, medical and flight checks?

[haihio]

So has anyone who didn’t SOLI their U.K. issued EASA licence pre Jan 1st found the most time efficient way (NAA) for gaining an EASA licence which sees any recognition whatsoever for a U.K. FCL licence?

is it 14 exams, medical and flight checks?




Not me.

If anyone has any useful info on this please let us know.

My hope is that in the near future sometime there will be some mutual recognition and that our UK license will be accepted by just doing some paper work and paying some fees or maybe just an air law exam and some fees like for example what transport Canada and the FAA have in place.

[Apate]

Not me.

If anyone has any useful info on this please let us know.

My hope is that in the near future sometime there will be some mutual recognition and that our UK license will be accepted by just doing some paper work and paying some fees or maybe just an air law exam and some fees like for example what transport Canada and the FAA have in place.

Opinion at the highest levels in the UK are that current politics will not allow this to happen. :ugh: