Aer Lingus UK

[BHD2BFS]

Following the announcement of Aer Lingus UK and for it to be based in Belfast for its launch in Manchester do we know what the future holds for EI UK in the Northern Ireland? You would assume it will have offices in the north now also.

”Aer Lingus (U.K.) Limited is the latest airline seeking access to the US market. The newly established subsidiary of Aer Lingus (http://aerlingus.com/) is based in Belfast, Northern Ireland and will be the aircraft operator of record for the company’s planned Manchester, UK base in Summer 2021 (https://paxex.aero/2020/11/aer-lingus-manchester-uk-summer-2021/).”

[biddedout]

Assuming the Corona restrictions ease as we go into the summer, this could be a much welcome jobs boost for Manchester airport and associated employers. It should also provide a glimmer of hope for the many UK Airbus rated pilots who lost their jobs after the collapse of TCX , Mon etc. Lets hope the UK Gov are incentivizing and encouraging Aer Lingus to do the right thing in return for rubber stamping the deal.

[Alteagod]

I guess that is also so the BHD/LHR can still operate. I wonder if they will put 320 on G reg for this route.

[JSCL]

Given Stobart are going for a UK AOC too for Belfast ops, I would suggest so.

[LTNman]

Good to see Aer Lingus getting around the EU bureaucracy and starting services from the U.K.

[SWBKCB]

EU bureaucracy - can you clarify? My understanding it's UK law that's involved. We've taken back control.

[lfc84]

LTNman

what has it got to do with the EU ?

[CWL757]

First A330 will be reg'd G-UKEI apparently.

[Buster the Bear]

The worry for Ireland is, that the airframes were supposed to be operating from Dublin, Cork and Shannon, the A321s opening new routes, plus replacing the 757s. No doubt IAG predict more profit from a Manchester base than keeping the airframes in Ireland.

[EI-BUD]

I think you'll find that EI overall have additional frames in the pipeline. They also will be able to step up services from Ireland if needed, and when demand arises.
Manchester is an incremental opportunity. The airline has already said it is committed to Shannon, that was in the media some weeks ago. Some routes may not return immediately I'm guessing ex Dublin, and in the interim until they do Manchester makes sense.

[Just a spotter]

According to The Irish Times, 2 A321 Neo LR's/XLR's will be going onto the G- registery.

The next two for delivery EI-LRE and RF are alreay built and carrying EI- markings, with 8 more on order following those two.

The Irish Times, 11th Dec 2020
Aer Lingus also intends using two new Airbus A321 long range (LR) jets, originally earmarked for the Republic, on the proposed Manchester-US routes.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-to-move-aircraft-from-ireland-to-uk-for-us-flights-1.4434422

[ROKNA]

EI has 4 A321NEOLR's in service A-D, 4 still undelivered E-H, 2 are going to Manchester.

There is also an XLR order to follow on of 6.

[SWBKCB]

The Irish Times article above refers to the two a/c to be delivered in Feb and March going on the UK register.

Airbus is due to deliver the A321LRs to Aer Lingus in February and March, when they will be registered in the UK.

[TURIN]

Good to see Aer Lingus getting around the EU bureaucracy and starting services from the U.K.

I think you'll find that its UK bureacracy that has required the re-registration of the a/c. If we were still in the EU this would not have been necessary. Leaving EASA is causing a right mess.

[SWBKCB]

You are right if we were still in the EU this wouldn't be necessary but EASA aren't involved. Most countries reserve domestic flights for domestic operators, and similarly international air service agreements usually restrict flights to airlines between the two countries involved

[ROKNA]

EI wouldn't have been required to submit or change anything if it wasn't for Brexit

EI is a UK domestic carrier and either held or holds the UK civil service contract from travel London - Belfast, so had to do some fancy footwork to keep flying, the route network out of Belfast has grown considerably to fill the gaps from Flybe.

EI also has some legacy traffic rights at Manchester which might come into play depending on the circumstances of Brexit as DUB-MAN-DUS/DUB-MAN-CPH etc.

Expect the A321NEO to make a least 1 rotation a day either domestically or to Dublin

[Wardair]

Good to see Aer Lingus getting around the EU bureaucracy and starting services from the U.K.

Indeed, always good to beat a bully

[biddedout]

It has got very little to do with the EU and Aer Lingus wasn't being bullied. IAG's lawyers are more than capable of dealing with any bureaucratic bullies, not that there are any.

This service is being launched on the back of newly signed UK -US Air Service Agreement. Had the UK remained in the EU, they could have done the same using the EU-US open skies agreements and without the hassle of creating a UK Subsidiary. As it is, they are struggling to work around this new UK-US agreement due to ownership rules; rules agreed between the UK and US without EU interference.

They have had to create a UK operating company but the reality is that in relation to this UK-US agreement, they are a third country operator as they are ultimately owned by a Spanish consortium. Given the distressed state of the UK industry and the mounting job losses, I am surprised the DfT is even considering sponsoring this box ticking shell company as an "Airline of a Party". If it really is necessary to create competition on these routes post TCX, there are several UK airlines available to to do this work.

[Rutan16]

Such as ?

Only fully UK airline company left of ANY significance is JET2 . Without exception ALL the others are significantly foreign owner invested !

[biddedout]

I know what you mean. The definition of a UK company is very vague but in simple terms I am thinking of companies that have staff based in the UK, living in the UK paying income tax in the UK and occasionally paying a little corporation tax to HMG. Obviously, Jet 2 is the closest but others fit the bill more closely than Aer Lingus or Aer Lingus UK which would be operating on a big loan from a foreign company. I suspect that far from offering competition on the Atlantic, this is just Willie Walsh's final attempt to kick Sir RB in the nuts before retirement. If so, the only losers will be UK workers.

[LGS6753]

The usual definition of foreign ownership is whether non-UK persons or entities own 50%+1 of the shares.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Aer Lingus is just a brand-name within IAG, similar to British Airways, Iberia and Vueling. Ownership isn't the key driver here. Aer Lingus aircraft are better-suited to the MAN Transatlantic routes than those in the British Airways fleet. New A321LR's are available for JFK and BOS, and the A333's have a cabin layout which is well-suited to a leisure-heavy route ... expected to be used on MAN-MCO.

[Rutan16]

biddedout

Again what is this vast list of UK based companies with the expertise to take on Delta/Virgin long haul from the regions even if we expand the coverage ?

BA not happening (See IAG and Aer Lingus UK brand)

With TCX and Monarch gone, that just leaves Tui and they already compete into Florida, Mexico, and the Caribbean however the North East seaboard scheduled service market is not in their DNA.

While Jet2 have operated odd Christmas charters to New York (this season cancelled for obvious reasons) longer programmes seem pretty distant to be honest.

The shrinkage of UK carriers over the last 18 months has removed significant deadwood imho.

As for Easyjet although they have A32xNG frames that could just about cross to the Eastern Seaboard again why would they if same aircraft can complete 4 shorter rotations in the same time period - simple economics

Finally the only other carrier I suppose would be Norwegian UK - however close to bust, aircraft grounded all over the place and new 787s returned to lessors while the Max issues well and truly devastated their erstwhile regional long haul proposals .

BTW they use/used contract labour much from third countries paid gross in Euros via middle man recruiting agencies in Eire and South East Asia - Nothing into our exchequer as they have made consistent losses so no corporate taxes either .

[SWBKCB]

LGS6753

I would imagine the Americans will be very interested in ownership, and will look to use any requests for exemptions to their advantage.

[Rutan16]

The EU-US OPENSKY treaty has already set significant precedent in these markets including ownership and cross border operations and other than bone headed Tory Brexiteer mentality their is nothing preventing continued participation as an annex just like Norway and Switzerland,

[SWBKCB]

Hasn't a US-UK agreement just been signed?

[MCDU2]

biddedout

I can assure you that with 35% UK tax versus 50% plus Irish there will be no trouble whatsoever with EI flight deck paying Her Majestys exchequer for the pleasure of spending 183 days tax resident:)

[Just a spotter]

Being suggested elsewhere (and also carried by Jethros) that the two A330's being transferred to EIUK are EI-ELA and EDY, both 300's.

FWIW, LA is currenty titled St Patrick / Pádraig (transferred from EI-DUB and before that EI-ASI), the frame carrying the name of the Irish partron saint is generally considered the fleet flagship, but he (or at least one of the people the stories about him relate to) was probobally from Britian anyway, so something of a home coming!

[davidjohnson6]

It puzzles me that the St Patrick aircraft is the flagship, yet aircraft names / reg are generally not publicised much to pax
Does Aer Lingus make any sort of effort to acknowledge this aircraft as having special significance in a way that ordinary non-spotter pax might notice while travelling ?

[Shamrock350]

It’s just tradition at this point but did have at least some significance in the past, particularly in the media who would refer to aircraft involved in newsworthy events by their individual names.

Aer Lingus does still follow the tradition of naming their perceived flagship Patrick/Pádraig from the first Lockheed Constellation to the first 720, 747 and its eventual replacement A330 in the 90s and again the latest A330 replacement.

Like with any airline, the so called flagship is more of an internal label stemming from the heritage and history of the airline rather than something passengers should take note of.

[Just a spotter]

The name of each aircraft is painted below the pilot windows, in Irish/'as gaeilge' on the right side and 'as béarla'/in English on the left

https://www.airteamimages.com/airbus-a330_EI-ELA_aer-lingus_118690.html

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8674584

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

There was the story, true or otherwise, that the simulator was named after the most obscure Irish saint of then all..."St Thetic".

[ericlday]

Still waiting for Pat Thetic......sorry

[Jn14:6]

Absolutely true.
We used the Aer Lingus 737 sim in Dublin when I joined Orion. All their sims were named St.Thetic.

[Bealzebub]

Their 707 simulator certainly was, but that is going back a little way!

[ATNotts]

With the way that the Covid pandemic is progress at present, I think if I were IAG I'd delay the start of Aer Lingus UK services by 12 months.

[biddedout]

I think the Home Office and DfT might be getting a little concerned particularly when the Government is promising to do all it can to help those out of work (2000UK pilots on the dole and counting) and yet this arrangement would undercut the UK job market and allow foreign carriers to bring in their own crews. Hardly taking back control and putting an end to freedom of movement.

[ATNotts]

I don't believe they can do diddly squat about it, as the Irish have so many rights with regard to UK, such as free movement, common travel and voting in our elections. I am actually surprised that the EU hasn't thrown this anomaly into the Brexit mix, but I guess as they've lived with it for 50 odd years there's not many grounds for doing so.

[SWBKCB]

Employment maybe, but what about licences?

[ATNotts]

Interesting, hadn't thought about that. The UK having left EASA, I suppose pilots will have to get a CAA licence. How big a deal would that be I wonder?

[biddedout]

I don't think licencing will be an issue. The CAA are allowing a two year period in which they will accept a non UK (EASA) licence and they will be producing a downloadable certificate to prove this for any non UK licence holder just in case they get ramp checked. Not needed for a domestic flight but recommended in case of diversion.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

biddedout

EI is full of British pilots, many might prefer the option to be based out of MAN.

The best thing the UK and most other countries for pilots is rollout testing and allow travel resume.

[TURIN]

Perhaps, worry less about the pilots, and regard other EASA licenced individuals who may (or may not) be looking after this mini fleet. As far as I know Aer Lingus do not have any maint staff at MAN. Brexit s causing a real headache with this.

[The96er]

The application to the CAA stated line Engineering will be performed by British Airways at MAN.

[Albert Hall]

If you know that for sure, someone somewhere has just broken the CAA Regulations by telling you that unless you are the person who wrote the application to them !

[The96er]

Further investigation, it wasn't the CAA application,but the Filing with the U.S Dept of Transport where I read it. A quote from within contained the followig:

It is intended that base maintenance support will be provided
by Sabena Technics and Dublin Aerospace, and line maintenance support will be provided by
British Airways and Aer Lingus Limited.

[Albert Hall]

Different rules and fair game then! Anything filed with the US DoT is public but not the same with the CAA or IAA.

[TURIN]

No updates for a while. Does anyone know when or if these new services will start?

[BHX5DME]

I think 1 July is the latest but will probably slip

[PPRuNeUser0176]

US decision is still pending and on the application they expected a UK one in this month. Not happened yet when I last checked.

Shouldn't be to long to wait and see the next A321 out of the factory in Hamburg which should show G if things go as indicated by EI.

[The96er]

I thought said aircraft was already rolled out with an EI reg ?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

It had the German D reg, person who took the pic indicated it would be EI-LRH which could be right or just making the assumption as it would be next on the list.

[AviationFan2021]

Jethros has updated the Aer Lingus Fleet listing and added EI-LRF, EI-LRG & EI-LRH. Looks like they will be EI reg so far.

[MCDU2]

US and UK regulators approval. IAG Board approval. Waiting on Boris to confirm a "living with covid" plan so that a start date can be agreed and tickets loaded for sale. Uncle Joe will need to give an indication of when he will open up the US of A and who to. Most of these are still up in the air.

[southside bobby]

We get what is meant but just to point out Uncle Joe was the rather more sinister figure from fairly contemporary history.

[DomyDom]

Article about the MAN-US routes and the potential for more EI A/C to be based in the UK according to the the Irish press.
"Aer Lingus expected to move more planes to UK as IAG looks to minimise cash burn" https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/companies/arid-40231562.html?type=amp

[The96er]

The article doesn’t appear to say anything above what was in the original plans which was 4 aircraft (2 A321neo and 2 A333). Seems another piece to put pressure on the Irish government.

[5strypes]

I certainly can't see the argument relating to British pilots? As mentioned, there are currently plenty of British pilots working within EI. And any pilot wishing to opt for a MAN base would be paying tax to HM. For the past several years, Thompson have operated ex DUB to the Caribbean, British reg, British crew, no Irish tax paid. Virgin continue to operate ex DUB to US for cargo ops, again no issue there? If there is a market to be served, let it be.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

None of these airlines have crew or aircraft based in Ireland though, that's the key change.

[Liffy 1M]

ATNotts

Those rights you itemise precede UK membership of the EU and so continue; they are also reciprocal in nature as far as the citizens of the two states are concerned, so it's not a one-way street.

[biddedout]

However it is a one was street if Aer Lingus insists on continuing with its current policy of requiring applicants to have the right to live and work in the EU. These will be UK jobs but UK applicants will be barred from applying even if they are offered externally. Not Aer Lingus's fault. The UK gov has taken those rights away from us and yet it appears to be helping foreign carriers set up in the UK without the need to even give UK nationals the chance to apply for these jobs. Irish unemployed pilot pool shrinks, UK pool expands. Thanks Grant!

[Dorking]

If thats the case surely BALPA have responsibility to represent its members and beat a path to the door of the DoT to even things up..At least they need to try.

[biddedout]

I agree. I don't know if there are any special agreements between parts of the IAG group but if not, I would be a little unhappy if I was a redundant BA pilot and my parent company appeared to be encouraging and helping another part of the group to set up base in my own country bringing its own staff and yet it would appear that a British national is not entitled to apply for that position should it actually be advertised. Aer Lingus have not changed the rules, HMG have. BALPA, DfT and several interested MPs are aware of this potential Brexit own goal so it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Again though, if I was a redundant BA pilot or an unemployed Airbus pilot then I would be interested to know why the minister for Transport has been holding talks with AL and helping the deal along with the US when there is a perfectly capable UK carrier and 2-3000 unemployed UK pilots able to take on this work.

[5strypes]

Skipness One Foxtrot

Not entirely correct. Thompson also fly Canaries routes with Irish based a/c and crew during summers.

[5strypes]

biddedout

If there was a capable carrier of operating, they would have done so surely? BA have neither the aircraft nor the cost structure to compete in MAN, Jet2 have little to no experience or apparently appetite for it. Can I ask why the EI base would be an issue, if the crew will be paying tax to the UK? Surely its just a nationality thing, and thats a dangerous territory. No similar issue raised with TUI or Cityflyer operating ex DUB?

[CruiseMonkey]

I'm sure there are enough British pilots and pilots with the right to live and work in the UK in Aer Lingus to crew the proposed Manchester operation. EI has not recruited pilots since the end of the Brexit transition period. If there were any external recruitment for the Manchester base, I'm sure that UK nationals would be able to apply.

British pilots have been flying for Aer Lingus for decades and I doubt Brexit will change that, thanks to the relationship between the UK and ROI that predates the EU. However it might not be possible for EI pilots with other European passports to fly on the UK aoc.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

I've not read the entire thread and therefore am replying off the cuff. The airline surely is Aer Lingus UK, not Aer Lingus, and therefore all conditions, both with regards to employment and tax, will be governed by UK law.

[El Bunto]

I was thinking that since Aer Lingus (UK) Ltd is registered in Northern Ireland, this will be the first AOC issued to an NI company since Woodgate and the first to incorporate passenger jet aircraft.

Back in the mists of time we had Emerald Airways and Air Ulster registered locally.

[MCDU2]

biddedout

We won't be hiring pilots for the MAN base if it goes ahead. They will be drawn from the existing seniority list.

[biddedout]

Thanks for the info MCDU2. This is not surprising given the number of excess crew in Aer Lingus but what does concern me is where this could lead if Aer Lingus continue to require their pilots to have the right to live and work in the EU. This wasn't a problem for UK nationals until now. What happens when the number of aircraft is 8 say, (half wet-leased in perhaps) and what in theory is to stop IAG working with Iberia to set up another £1 UK brass plate subsidiary bring in all their own surplus aircraft and crew on the South America routes?

The UK ROI Common Travel area agreement should allow this apparent unfair situation to balance out over time but not if it is being completely undermined, now that UK nationals have lost their freedom of movement. The UK, ROI and USA are now all third countries with respect to one another but I doubt that the US authorities would be happy if Aer Lingus said we are opening a NY base and we want to bring all our own staff in. I can't blame IAG and Aer Lingus for giving this a go and I think it could be quite successful. I do wonder though, whether the UK government has a clue what a can of worms they could be opening up and if they do, do they care or are all the UK unemployed pilots just meant to get over it and convert to grocery delivery vans. What's next, Air France UK, Lufthansa UK, each with a small office in a broom-cupboard above the coffee shop at Shoreham Airport.

[speedrestriction]

The UK, ROI and USA are now all third countries with respect to one another.

Not correct from a residency or working rights perspective.

U.K. citizens have unrestricted rights to live and work in the Republic of Ireland.

Irish citizens have unrestricted rights to live and work in the U.K.

This is clearly not the case for living and working in the USA or for US citizens over here.

Obviously Irish citizens additionally have the unrestricted right to live and work in all EU countries.

[biddedout]

Speedrestriction.

That's true but the issue is that Aer Lingus also have the right to live and work in the EU as a restriction on their terms and conditions. I am not sure how they will apply that going forwards or whether like Ryanair, they only apply it selectively. As it stands though, it appears to prevent UK nationals from applying. It may be a hangover from the past and they may drop it but equally, it may be retained to give flexibility if they need to re-deploy crew elsewhere into the EU in the future. If it is that latter then it cannot be right that UK Gov are supporting Aer Lingus either directly through PSO routes or indirectly by loans and aid to BA / AIG when other UK airlines are not being offered support and when so many UK crew are out of work. I suppose one indication would be how they plan to deal with UK nationals currently working for them. They have the right to work n the ROI, but not in the rest of the EU. Maybe they will just turn a blind eye to their own rules.

[Albert Hall]

There's a degree of near-xenophobia developing through this thread. I am sure that Aer Lingus has more than a few UK resident and UK-taxpaying pilots on its seniority list, just as British Airways and Virgin Atlantic have pilots resident in France, Netherlands and far beyond on theirs. If those existing Aer Lingus pilots start to fly to and from Manchester instead of commuting back and forth to Dublin before every shift or block of shifts, who exactly has lost out here?

And there is already a major European airline resident in that figurative broom-cupboard above the coffee shop at Shoreham (not literally). SAS Ireland operating out of Heathrow. It's perhaps at this point that I should put on my tin hat and run for cover.

[LGS6753]

I feel a court case coming on.
As soon as any airline starts advertising in the UK for new recruits with the ability to live/work anywhere in the EU, it will be discriminatory against most UK residents.

[Alteagod]

Is this even going to happen this year I wonder?

[The96er]

Looking less likely for the summer, especially to the U.S. I believe they are looking at the Caribbean for the winter though.

[MCDU2]

Albert Hall

It certainly seems that way.

EI is a part of IAG. It pays dividends up the food chain. All the UK/EU grant aid has been tagged as far as I am aware to the respective territory and cannot be transferred within the group. EI have only just recently received a small loan from the Irish government and its nowhere near anything that BA or Iberia have gained.

MAN went boom when the locos/charters went bust. Opportunites arose to serve a large market. EI had and have aircraft due for delivery that it doesn't need at the moment as Ireland is effectively closed for business from a travel perspective. So it saw an opportunity. It also has a substantial surplus of pilots in the ROI.

There were never any "job opportunites" for UK unemployed pilots in the first place and as such EI won't be taking any jobs away. EI and its UK based staff will be paying its taxes. In the future if (and its a big if) the opportunity expands then there may be opportunities to hire new staff. This will be dependant on a number of factors notwithstanding what level of bounce back there will be in the Irish market.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

US granted approval for the flights.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

LGS6753

They have advertised a few jobs today (not crew) for MAN and the following is required in terms of live/work:

Eligible to live and work in the United Kingdom without restriction (i.e. UK Passport Holder or Non-UK Citizen holding a valid work permit)
Hold a valid UK passport allowing unrestricted worldwide travel/or equivalent
Eligible to apply for and obtain US/relevant visas required for role

https://aerlingus-career.talent-soft.com/job/list-of-jobs.aspx

[easyboy22]

Now advertising for crew for Manchester

[ETOPS]

Yes - was involved in filling in an application last night.

[pabloc]

is this on the official Aer lingus site or a separate Aer lingus uk site?...thanks

[fanrailuk]

https://apply.workable.com/nobox-hr-outsourcing-solutions/j/FBA7B88634/

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Indo reports 120 crew and 40 pilots based on 4 aircraft and flights expected to go on sale in a few weeks. Only 3 have schedules, one assumes the fourth will be spare and used to boost freq if/when the need arises. The Aer Lingus statement:

“Aer Lingus continues to evaluate opportunities to operate North Atlantic routes from [a] regional UK airport,” it told the Irish Independent.

“A final decision has not been taken in relation to the launch of these services which are subject to the granting of all necessary approvals,” it added.


https://www.independent.ie/business/world/aer-lingus-hiring-120-uk-based-cabin-crew-for-new-us-services-40205661.html

[Alteagod]

TBH the article is all a bit if and maybe and hope to but still, jobs is jobs at the moment.

[JSCL]

Precisely this. My anticipation is that these routes don't actually take off until early next year, although every hope for all involved that they can have some kind of season this year.

[The96er]

Current planning is for an end of July start. I’m hearing the proposed BOS route will not feature this year.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

New York and Orlando on sale from July and Bridgetown is added for winter.

[fjencl]

Aer Lingus launches new direct UK-US flights with fares from £199 each way (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/aer-lingus-launches-new-direct-uk-us-flights-with-fares-from-c2-a3199-each-way/ar-BB1eUSRy?ocid=uxbndlbing)

[EZYPZY]

Very exciting developments indeed, I think a July launch is very optimistic given the Governments rhetoric on international travel, but welcome all the same. When doing a dummy booking however, the website states only UK originating bookings can be made. Anyone know why this might be?

[lfc84]

Waiting for AOC until USA DOT permit ex USA reservations

[Dannyboy39]

Pardon my ignorance but if IAG wanted to operate bucket and spade routes out of MAN, why not just use the spare BAW lift?

[ETOPS]

Because years ago, for reasons I can't fathom, BA decided to withdraw from the regions and concentrate on LHR. They were forced to keep Gatwick because of capacity limits at LHR but have remained true to that decision. I realise that LCY based Embraers have operated weekend fillers from MAN but thats a long way from a longhaul base like this.

They became "London Airways" and thus Aer Lingus have spotted a potential business which IAG have allowed..........

[ROKNA]

CAA proving flight was today with a A321.

EI went hunting a few years ago for some UK regional locations, Dublin has picked up a significant volume of business as people voted with their feet and wallets to avoid the madness, stress and flying the wrong way via LHR/LGW. So the next step was to fly direct.

1. EI has a heavier focus on Y, BA is heavily tied to premium cabins. EI send A330's down to Spain daily in peak season and fills them, none of the messing BA has with load management on 4 class 777's in Europe.

2. The A330-300 is an efficient long haul passenger aircraft, sure the 777 has more capacity but you don't need the MTOW/range for bucket and spade jobs

3. EI has the A321NEOLR which is unbeatable cost wise. EI's cost base is highly competitive which comes from having Ryanair camped out at your home base, no such worries at LHR...

4. If BA did show up at MAN it would be a worn out 777 or one with the 10 across densification, which isn't going to get you return business. The EI J seat was the best seat on the Atlantic for several years and the A330 Y cabin is a vastly nicer place to be than any 777 version

5. Thomas Cook/Monarch demise and Virgin's constant uncertainty left Manchester with a target on its back and EI took first move advantage

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

ETOPS

BA were kicked out of the regions by the easyJets of the world. They fly the old BA routes at a fraction of the cost with none of the overheads legacy BA had. Best example I heard was when BA bought British Regional, the Jetstream 41 fleet went from moneymaker to lossmaker overnight once it was plugged into the BA cost base. Big Airways were fat, bloated and entitled and charged top dollar, the market said "no thanks" and went all orange instead. Basically LHR was the only place BA could make money back then.

I think the refurbished 10 abreast B777s are actually quite nice, and no different to Emirates or Qatar. Aer Lingus uses an A330 on a DUB-AGP between long hauls for passengers holidaying in Spain, BA do the same with a B777 on LHR-MAD, although mainly for cargo and connections to Iberia long haul so more premium seats are needed.

Do we know what the callsign will be for the G- Aer Lingus fleet?

[ETOPS]

How about “Clover” :ok:

[Noxegon]

Skipness One Foxtrot

I'm not a particularly large person, and I find 10-abreast in a 777 to be miserable.

Separately, unless something dramatic has changed in the last few years, I reckon Emirates' ICE has the edge over anything BA offers on the seat back.

[El Bunto]

ETOPS

They could cause ructions in the motherland and adopt AERLINGUS that was dropped in favour of SHAMROCK in the mid-80s...

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Some stats on traffic split from MAN and overall UK transit.

https://www.anna.aero/2021/03/25/aer-lingus-to-craic-non-stop-uk-us-market-data-showcases-recent-dub-hub-success/

[chaps1954]

El Bunto Aer Lingus have been using Shamrock from at least 1960s

[El Bunto]

Actually not, SHAMROCK was used by Aerlinte Eireann for transatlantic flights. After those were folded into the Aer Lingus portfolio, SHAMROCK transferred over to the rest of the network from about 1980 onwards.

[El Bunto]

No, SHAMROCK was used at that time by Aerlinte Eireann for transatlantic flights. After those were folded into the Aer Lingus portfolio, SHAMROCK transferred over to the rest of the network from about 1980 onwards, replacing AERLINGUS.

[chaps1954]

Well I remember the 1-11s calling Shamrock in 1969 when they did the European flights ex Manchester to Zurich, Copenhagen, Amsterdam etc

[ETOPS]

With the delivery yesterday of the second A321LR Aer Lingus UK have both their new aircraft "on the property". I'm assuming the recent AOC proving flight will have concluded succesfully thus they are getting closer to the start of operations.......

Apart for the Covid travel restictions that is :rolleyes:

[Liffy 1M]

El Bunto is correct re the callsign history. In fact "Shamrock" was dropped altogether for a while in the 1980s, with transatlantic services using "Aer Lingus", before being adopted again for the whole operation.

[TURIN]

Only two aircraft to be based at MAN now. I'm beginning to get a sinking feeling about all this.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Liffy 1M

So short haul used "Aer Lingus" as well at this time?

[cumbrianboy]

TURIN

Why? This was the plan - 1 to do JFK and 1 for MCO/BGI. Further aircraft will be added next year when they start BOS ...

[5strypes]

TURIN

Absolutely nothing has changed. As mentioned above, always the plan, 1 neo, 1 330 for 2021.

[TURIN]

Actually, no it wasn't. The original plan was two A321LR and two A330. Start date was May 2021. The start date has now pushed back to end of July, the A330 was reduced to just one aircraft, and now the reduction to just one of each. I really wont be suprised if this is pushed back again to October.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

These reductions however, in all fairness to them, are hardly the fault of Aer Lingus. Could anyone really have known how long Covid would be limiting the travel industry as a whole?

[cumbrianboy]

In fairness the launch of services is the only piece of firm data you have and that was always the plan. The second 330 isn’t needed for the schedule the neo to Boston was delayed due to the ongoing travel restrictions resulting from the ludicrous Covid policy and Boston being summer only.

the plan for the July launch is what was planned and has not since changed and I see no reason to be nervous about it

[TURIN]

Our sources of info may differ Cumbrianboy.

[cumbrianboy]

Yes they probably do. It seems to me all is going according to plan though

[5strypes]

TURIN

I'm not sure where you got May from, but that was never a 'plan', simply a rumour. When things were announced, the plan, was two aircraft in 2021, followed by another in 2022. As with literally everything in aviation these days, things are changing, so that may well become 2 aircraft in 2022 or none. So ultimately your 'fear' is based on rumours and as I said, nothing has changed.

[TURIN]

Sadly, I cannot reveal my sources. It was not from rumour. But I will stick to what I have said. Nothing is going to plan. At all.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It can't go to plan as bookings can't gain any momentum until a realistic idea of when UK-US travel will become normalised, and I don't mean the whole family of mum, dad and several kids masked up in a tube for nine long hours whilst paying hundred of pounds each and queueing for 4-5 hours to get in or worse, back in!

I called Summer 2020 a write off early last year, Summer 2021 will be equally non existent in these markets. It's nearly May and people haven't begun booking. If we're open again by 21 Jun in the UK, there will rightly be pressure to get our own house in order before open again to the world.

[MANFOD]

Only two aircraft to be based at MAN now. I'm beginning to get a sinking feeling about all this.

Can you clarify this please? Are you referring to just 2021 or the longer term? My understanding was 2 based for later this year depending on when things open up and how bookings react, and 3 a/c next year if Boston is introduced. There was talk of 4 based going forward if the operation proved successful.

[Liffy 1M]

Skipness One Foxtrot

Short-haul services used "Aer Lingus" until the adoption of "Shamrock" for the whole operation. My memory as to when this occurred is unclear - late 1980s or early 1990s, I'd say.

[Shamrock350]

It wouldn’t come as much of a surprise if the launch was pushed back a couple of months, the reopening of travel hasn’t happened as expected and we’re still none the wiser on what will or won’t be allowed so forward bookings must be almost non-existent.

What Aer Lingus (and other airlines) will be aware of though is how quickly demand picked up last summer during that brief window of opportunity when everything reopened. If the government give the go ahead, there’ll be a sudden rush of bookings and any airline will want to be ready and waiting to start operations.

[5strypes]

TURIN

Your source is misinformed. As someone directly involved in the process, I can attest to that.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

I hope it works out for them but I reckon booking are very low so far. MCO might be doing better because of more last minute bookings which are undercutting VS who would have solid loads already.

US sales needed so hopefully they are cleared soon.

[waffler]

I would imagine that most of Virgins solid loads are deferred flights from last year and that money has already been spent.
i wish them both well as people certainly deserve a holiday.

[TURIN]

5strypes

My source is Aer Lingus. 😁

[Shamrock350]

So first you claim you have a 'sinking feeling' about it, then that you can't reveal your sources to actually claiming your source is Aer Lingus?

With the current lack of clarity surrounding travel in the near future it's obviously far easier to cast doubt on this venture and a push back wouldn't be a massive surprise but I'm not sure you're the one with the inside track you claim.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Advertised ground ops manger and duty airport manager this morning.

[TURIN]

Shamrock350

Woah there, easy tiger.
If this venture fails it directly affects my future employment. I don't want it to fail any more than you do. I'm merely sceptical after being let down by so many 'new routes/airlines at MAN' over the years.
I don't want to get into a :mad: contest over who's got the juice, I'm really not interested.

​​​​​

[ShotOne]

While genuinely wishing the best to those who’ll be employed, how would this be regarded if the boot was on the other foot? Would any foreign airline be welcome to set up a subsidiary in Dublin without employing local pilots and managed and controlled from abroad?

[Albert Hall]

What, like Hibernian, Norwegian or SAS Ireland, you mean?

[ShotOne]

SAS Ireland aircraft all operate from London Heathrow so, no, I don’t mean like that (yes I appreciate their admin office is in DUB)

[PPRuNeUser0176]

ShotOne

allowed yes, welcome that depends on individual views.

You could view it another way. If MAN works out and they commit to long term operation positions for local pilots will come up. If they had to employ pilots from day one MAN wouldn’t happen.

[MCDU2]

ShotOne

I don't get your point. Is it not the same as what presently occurs in Dublin where Lufthansa, KLM and BA (albeit IAG) nightstop and grab Irish originating pax then fly them to a hub and onwards? None of the aforementioned airlines have bases setup in Ireland nor employ local crews. The most they would have is perhaps a country/regional manager and use third party service providers for ground services. This is all enshrined in the various "freedoms" of aviation.

EI are employing local ground and CCMs in MAN and there is provision that if the base is under subscribed for flight deck then EI UK can go into the market and hire directly.

If you want to get a flight deck position in Aer Lingus UK then I am afraid there is no way to skip the queue as there is a seniority list.

[5strypes]

ShotOne

As mentioned prior, this is common place. TUI, a UK airline, operate ex DUB to both Canaries and Carribbean, with no Irish crew or setup. Virgin, operate to the US via Dublin, albeit for cargo. BA Cityflyer operate from Dublin to sun routes in Spain. Norwegian is perhaps the perfect example, an airline setup to avoid labour laws operating throughout Europe. The world is a global place now, and it's a cautious line between protecting jobs and xenophobia. Aer Lingus are unionised, with strong working conditions and a seniority list, the nationality of its workers is entirely besides the point. They will be paying tax in the UK, many will relocate to the UK and not that it's worth anything, but many pilots and crew within EI are in fact British.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I suppose the difference is that Aer Lingus UK is a new subsidiary opened and based in a different country flying non Irish aircraft on a new AOC but still wholly crewed by Aer Lingus. But we live in strange times.

[SWBKCB]

5strypes

The key difference is that the examples quoted were when we were in the EU and part of the Open Skies agreement.

We aren't now but Aer Lingus UK have satisfied the criteria to obtain a UK AOC and approval from the Americans.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

While this is true don't TUI just outsource to Canada for DUB/BFS and a few other airports with Canadian flight deck/aircraft. Identical set up local cabin crew only for EI UK but they happen to have pilots already based in UK.

[SWBKCB]

Just a short term seasonal damp lease, not an airline operating under it's own AOC.

[cumbrianboy]

As I have said before, Aer Lingus UK is a UK airline operating on a UK AOC issued by the UK CAA. Staff will be employed in the UK and pay UK tax.

Sure, the pilots may transfer from Ireland but given the state of global aviation now, I find it hard to believe anyone is upset at an airline trying to save pilot jobs rather than add to the already heartbreaking list of out of work pilots.

And let's not get too bogged down by the ownership of this UK company, after all the flag carrier is ultimately owned by the same people as Aer Lingus UK, and Ryanair, lets face it, are not a UK company but probably employing the most pilots in the UK (or at least in the top 2-3 airlines employing pilots in the UK) and a lot them are not on the UK AOC ...

I find the negativity and need to diminish things on pprune these days particularly sad, at a time when we should all be coming together to support the resurrection of aviation after what has been a real :mad: year ...

[ShotOne]

I agree the main issue isn’t ownership but please excuse what you term “negativity”. Not a single U.K. pilot job is being “saved”: these jobs are simply being exported. I acknowledge some Brits are presently employed by AL just as there are many Irish pilots flying for U.K. airlines. But even in the event of future recruitment there’s no guarantee British pilots would be eligible.

[5strypes]

EI-EIDW

I don't believe so, their 787s are definitely UK pilots, though you may be correct on the 737 stuff.

Regarding 'outsourcing' jobs, these jobs would not have existed if EI didn't bring them. If you believe otherwise, you're naïve. I have not complained at the 'outsourcing' of jobs from Dublin to UK pilots.

As said before, there is a negativity and willingness to bash, when we should be grateful there's even a glimmer of a restart in our industry.

[cumbrianboy]

ShotOne

When there is future recruitment directly into Aer Lingus UK then absolutely British pilots would be ellgible. Of course they will not recruit new pilots in order to make existing ones redundant - in what world would that make sense or even be moral? It is a requirement that any pilot working in the UK is eligible to work in the UK as that is where they will be based. There will not be dublin pilots popping over to manchester for a couple of days to cover, these are jobs based solely in the UK. Again, I really don't get why this can be seen as anything other than good news?

[ShotOne]

You say “Absolutely British pilots would be eligible...” I’d certainly hope so but they’re not currently: Aer Lingus website specifies right to work in EU. In what world does it make sense or is moral for IAG to make hundreds of U.K. pilots redundant only to bring in others from overseas? Even if you disagree, surely you can appreciate the flip side here?

[DomyDom]

I think we should. Any multinational business that is prepared to invest in MAN at the moment given the year that our travel and aviation industries have been through should be welcomed in my opinion. If they want to employ pilots that they can employ interchangeably elsewhere in the EU that doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's a business decision for them but if they are pulling passengers through the airport thus creating UK jobs for in cabin crew, catering, security, baggage handling that's fine by me.

[DomyDom]

Well said cumbrianboy. It's great news and we should be celebrating that a major airline is investing in the UK given the year that the travel and aviation have had. I'm looking forward flying with them.

[cumbrianboy]

ShotOne

They have not advertised for any pilots for Aer Lingus UK so I am baffled as to what you are referring to ...

Remember ... what is on the website is for recruitment into Aer Lingus Ireland ... which is a different AOC ...as I have said before

[ShotOne]

I was responding to your assurance that in the event of recruitment, U.K. pilots would “absolutely” be eligible. That’s clearly open to question.

[cumbrianboy]

You really are hung up on this fact. If you want to work in the UK you legally have to have the right to live and work here. Go and have a look at the recent cabin crew adverts that went out - again if you look at the Aer Lingus Ireland website you will see to work as cabin crew in dublin you have to have the right to work in the EU - but if you look at the adverts for Aer Lingus UK Cabin Crew it clearly states you must have the right to live and work in the EU and there is NO requirement for EU rights - only UK rights.

You don't need me to tell you this is the ONLY way it can be otherwise they legally will not get anyone ...

I don't know how else I can tell you this, your point is misguided and not open to interpretation - in fact I believe some of the existing Aer Lingus crew were not eligible to move over due to the EU/UK restrictions ... what else can I say?

[ShotOne]

The only fact I’m hung up on is that the tantalising notion of this being a future opportunity for U.K. pilots is total fantasy. AL require EU nationality which would exclude most British pilots from applying. There’s no separate ALUK pilot recruitment process now and possibly never will be.

[cumbrianboy]

AL require the right to work in the EU if you want to go to Ireland, you are 100% correct. AL will not require this for working in the UK as that will not work for the UK operation. This is already the case for pilots relocating to the UK and has also been shown quite clearly in the adverts of last month for the UK based cabin crew as seen here:

https://www.aviationjobs.me/jobs/flight-attendant-aer-lingus-uk/

If this operation is a success then they will expand, and if they expand at some point they will recruit pilots. Is it going to solve the job prospects of unemployed pilots in the short term? of course not. Is it a long term opportunity? absolutely.

What it does do in the short term however is stop even more pilots being made redundant, thereby reducing competition for jobs when they do come back later this tear or next (not withstanding the demagogue tendencies of Matt Hancock)

I don't think I can add anything else to this discussion now as I have been as clear as I can be ...

[ShotOne]

If it works out as you say, please count me as No1 fan. The reason for my strong scepticism is why would AL hire pilotsjust for U.K.operation. Would be overjoyed to be proved wrong.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Why wouldn't they, lets say 2-3 years pass and EI say yes this is working and they also need pilots back in Ireland. They would hire UK pilots because some pilots for this operation might not want to fly the services but given the sector issues have decided to do it.

If there is 2 aircraft year round at MAN they would have no issues hiring locally and then prehaps have Irish pilots crew for seasonal based units.

I think if MAN works out but became a highly seasonal operation like Shannon then questions about hiring UK pilots verses more Irish might tip the balance towards crewing by Irish based and maximize flexibility.

[MCDU2]

Just so that we are perfectly clear IF the base cannot be filled by bids from flight deck off the existing global seniority list then EI can crew it by sourcing externally. This has been made clear many times in webinars and is also contained in the new base agreement.

[davidjpowell]

Do Aer Lingus already employ many UK pilots who commute?

I would suspect quite a few, they certainly were recruiting after Monarch folded, and would be an obvious resource for a Uk base.

[brian_dromey]

Irish Citizens are an unusual case in terms of right to live and work in the UK - it is unrestricted and independent of EU freedom of movement. UK citizens also have the right to work, travel and live in RoI, again independent of EU treaties. So EI-UK, or any other employer, is perfectly entitled to recruit Irish citizens to work in the UK.
At the moment EI seems to be redeploying pilots based in DUB/ORK/SNN to work for EI-UK at MAN. It works both ways, I don't think there were any compulsory crew redundancies when the LGW base closed.

[5strypes]

ShotOne

Can I ask if you would be content if EI only took the British nationals working for them to crew the MAN base? I don't see the issue, bar pure xenophobia, if an Irish pilot moves to the UK and pays tax in the UK and rents/buys a house in the UK? This isn't a tax dodge or cheap labour gig, this is purely an airline fighting to survive and its many crew from all over the world, looking to continue work.

[MCDU2]

EI is a unionised airline just the same as BA. Therefore it has a host of long fought agreements. One key agreement covers seniority. It matters not a jot if a pilot on the seniority is British, Irish or any other nationality when filling up the MAN base. There is a bid form and seniority. The most senior person will get the gig. The only caveat is the right to work in the UK that I understand will have precluded some following Brexit.

People that struggle with the concept of seniority should stay away from legacy airlines.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Is the UK cert taking longer than expected?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

They have asked the US to allow the BA codeshare and said this about the UK ACO.

When the Joint Applicants submitted their application on December 9, 2020, they anticipated the CAA would have issued all required licenses and authorizations by now. However, although the CAA has assured Aer Lingus (U.K.) that its application remains on track, those approvals have not yet been granted but are expected to be issued before the end of May

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2020-0250-0007

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/634062/breaking-aer-lingus-set-to-close-shannon-airport-base.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0518/1222358-aer-lingus-cork/

Looks like the Shannon A321 NEOs won't be going back anytime soon.

[AviationFan2021]

Actually thats not confirmed. Rumoured to be crewed by DUB crew and EI CEO said theres no intent to remove these flights. Flights are still on sale from SNN with 2 NEO from September!!

[pabloc]

They have asked the US to allow the BA codeshare and said this about the UK ACO.



https://www.regulations.gov/document/DOT-OST-2020-0250-0007
Any news on this?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

I was thinking the same, so no UK AOC and the end of May has passed. They have said there side is in order so you would wonder why the CAA are not issuing. Not sure the US would bend the rules and allow the BA sale without the AOC.

One positive is possible US-UK travel soon.

Cabin Crew training was due to start over the last week or two, not sure if it did. Anyone confirm?

[jmccrew]

Cabin crew training started over a week ago at Manchester

[PPRuNeUser0176]

US appear to have a approved the BA codeshare request.

[TURIN]

Excellent news. We need something positive after this week's announcement.

[CabinCrewe]

more delays to start date?

[fanrailuk]

Aer Lingus delays Manchester transatlantic flights launch to September (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-delays-manchester-transatlantic-flights-launch-to-september-1.4594890)

[daz211]

30th of September, do they know something the rest of us don’t.

[772]

Good move, can’t see U.K. govt

a. Wanting to open up before September at the earliest

And

b. Working out how to before September

[Just a spotter]

According to "Flying in Ireland", A330 EI-ELA has been re-registered G-EILA

[ATNotts]

772

Given the direction of political travel I don't so much see the UK government as an obstacle, more so the US government where the Delta variant hasn't really taken hold and cases are much lower than the UK whichever statistical measure you use.

[Just a spotter]

As a somewhat interesting aside, I've just had a look at the EI fleet listing on Jethros, it would appear that there will soon be a Concord flying the G- register.

EI-LRG is to be transferred to be G-EILG and, as with all the EI Fleet carries the name of a Christian saint associated with Ireland, in RG's case that's St Concord, or Conchobhar in Irish.

The now G-EILA is St.Patrick/Pádraig, the frame carrying that name is usually considered the fleet flagship (although it's been know to switch aircraft)

[EISNN]

Not sure where you got that information but Concobhar is the Irish for Cornelius and also Conor. It’s also a variation on the family name Connor. Definitely not Concorde.

[Shamrock350]

True but that is the name Aer Lingus has gone for, Concobhar is visible on the Irish side of EI-LRG and St Concord on the other.

[pabloc]

Call sign.. GreenFlight

[HOVIS]

These flights have been operating for a few weeks now, what are the loads like? Is it a success yet or has Omicrom stuffed it?

[The96er]

These flights have been operating for a few weeks now, what are the loads like? Is it a success yet or has Omicrom stuffed it?

JFK and MCO doing well considering it's winter. BGI figures have been poor with only a few flight going into triple digits.

[VickersVicount]

JFK and MCO doing well considering it's winter. BGI figures have been poor with only a few flight going into triple digits.
I’ve a feeling the VS services will be in the same boat ex UK

[cumbrianboy]

MCO &JFK doing very well. bgi has been busy over xmas and new year but with the current state of travel to be expected it’s quieter outside the holiday season. Confirmed BGI back for winter 2022/23 though. Summer 2022 sees MCO daily (which was always the plan) and daily JFK.

[roverman]

MCO &JFK doing very well. bgi has been busy over xmas and new year but with the current state of travel to be expected it’s quieter outside the holiday season. Confirmed BGI back for winter 2022/23 though. Summer 2022 sees MCO daily (which was always the plan) and daily JFK.

I don't think that the A321NX quite has the range to reach BGI, otherwise that would be a good equipment swap at leaner times of the season.

[cumbrianboy]

No I’d expect the neo will operate other routes but not florida or the Caribbean

[pabloc]

Any news on G-EILA’s return to service, I read somewhere that it was having heavy maintenance

[HOVIS]

Due back mid February. G-EIDY will then head off to DUB, for an A check I think.

[pabloc]

Due back mid February. G-EIDY will then head off to DUB, for an A check I think.
thanks Hovis👍🏻

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Two A330s at MAN this winter? No A321N down-gauge?

[chaps1954]

Don`t think so, a friend of my wife has just completed her training with a number of others and now on services.

[pabloc]

Two A330s at MAN this winter? No A321N down-gauge?
2 330 since March this year , reports in house is all is well

[The96er]

Two A330s at MAN this winter? No A321N down-gauge?

You wouldn’t get the 6 to 10 tonnes of cargo a day on the A321 that the JFK currently sees.