Sydney-Canberra proposed Twin-Otter floatplane service

[layman]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-08/sydney-to-canberra-seaplane-route-proposed/12957556

Sydney Seaplanes are proposing a twice daily Rose Bay - Lake Burley Griffen (West Basin) service using a 15 seat Twin Otter.

There is to be a test flight ‘next week’ (beginning 14 December).

Might be a unique opportunity for the photographers among you.

I don’t see this becoming a regular service. There is already a proposal to partly in-fill the lake at West Basin for apartment living.

[Bodie1]

Thank god the propellers don't go in the water!

That looks sensational!

[Stationair8]

The local Canberra Nimby’s are already voicing concerns!

The Canberra yacht club Commodore, hasn’t seen Sydney harbour on busy day.

[Blueyonda]

Good luck to them. I hope it makes a good impression and if it doesn’t, I hope it proves a point to those in power.

[MLHeliwrench]

They could take some lessons from Victoria BC Canada. We have over 100 movements a day sometimes in our little water aerodrome. https://www.focusonvictoria.ca/focus-magazine-july-august-2019/an-airport-in-our-midst-r14/

[Sunfish]

Great idea but I can't see the Government allowing it on strategic policy grounds. CASA would, I think also not allow it even if it was technically possible. There will be a demonstration flight and then the project will be allowed to die in a welter of committees.

My reasoning is simple; Such a service, were it permitted and succeeds, would provide a constant reminder of the utility of General aviation (Little aircraft) to the public, public servants and legislators. Its the perfect advertisement for GA - which is why it can't be permitted.

A successful service raises a whole series of very uncomfortable policy questions for the Department of Transport and CASA. Here are some of them:

- Considering the billions we have spent on Sydney transport systems, Badgery's creek, freeways, etc. Why is this service even needed? Could it be that our major investment has been wasted? Our transport planning does not allow for floatplanes! Especially not in a designed environment like Canberra!

- Considering that the National Capital now has a floatplane service, how can any government or authority reject applications for similar services across Australia? It's the thin end of the wedge! How do we prevent private float planes from landing?

- What does this do to our "Green" credentials? Will Labor support such a service? The greens will go nuts!

- Considering the success of this service, what does this demonstration of the usefulness of GA aircraft mean for our policy positions on such things as airport privatisation, infrastructure investment as well as transport planning? What just happened to our "One size fits all" big airport model?

- How can CASA regulate or interfere with such a highly visible service? How do they regulate other services? With what effect?

These are just a few of the uncomfortable questions that would be asked but mustn't.

[Lookleft]

I would imagine that this is just a publicity announcement. I doubt that a twice daily service is viable and the pollies are never going to step foot in a Twotter.

[Al E. Vator]

Brilliant idea...imagine being able to step onto an aircraft at Rose Bay (almost in central Sydney) and hop off in central Canberra. Beats all that awful traffic out of Sydney on the Hume Hwy.
Of course there will be some bureaucratic hurdle to prevent this

[Bodie1]

I doubt it's aimed at politicians. High worth tourism perhaps, Canberra is a great place to visit, I would jump at the chance to do the equivalent in any country.

[Ascend Charlie]

I have ridden the Single Otter from Victoria to Vancouver, and it is a gorgeous flight - over water all the way, perfect for a forced landing in a single floatplane. Our baggage went by bus on the ferry - not much space in an Otter when you put the pax on board.

If the flight is carried out IFR (which it will probably have to, as RPT) on a cloudy day, will they shoot the approach to Canberra Apt and then go VFR to the puddle? Will CA$A insist on Flight Attendants? X-ray security at Rose Bay and at "Gough's Harbour"? Tarmac terriers in yellow "FollowMe" boats scooting around the water, examining boating people for not displaying ASIC? Big fences put up around Sydney Harbour to stop intruders?

Somebody in CA$A will be licking his lips as he contemplates the Fees and Charges applicable to this simple run. And Sydney Airports Corporation will be screaming about missing out on a landing fee.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Such a service, were it permitted and fails, would provide a constant reminder of the futility of General aviation (Little aircraft) to the public, public servants and legislators.

Careful what you wish for.

[Vag277]

Some people on here do spout absolute rubbish. The fares suggested are competitive with Sydney - Canberra via jet RPT. Good tourist market.
Not a "twotter" Aircraft proposed is a Cessna Caravan.
Sunfish views suggest he is opposed to aviation in general as he appears unable to write anything positive about anything in aviation. Must be a depressing life.
NCA badly need educating about aviation. That would be a much better investment of time and effort than some of the crap written here. Hopefully Sydney Seaplanes staff will be able to explain in short sentences with single syllable words.

[halas]

Could continue on to Jindabyne.

[jportzer]

Sydney Seaplanes previously used their C208 Caravan on an approved RPT service from Rose Bay to Newcastle, landing in the Hunter river and tying up near Honeysuckle, in the early 2010's I guess? It attracted a few regulars, but apparently was not successful in the long term. I tried it once - a wonderful way to travel on a nice day. This service was single pilot, no flight attendant. Each passenger was issued a belt mounted life jacket which you had to have at the ready during the flight (though you didn't actually fully don it). My understanding is this was a condition of approval for single engine operations in RPT - you must always be within gliding distance of a landing area, and the ocean counted but it was presumed an ocean landing would not necessarily be upright, hence the life jackets. The flight path followed the coast up to Newcastle and only operated VFR as I understand it. How would that work for a Canberra service, given the terrain would surely not be suitable for such a condition?

Btw, Wikipedia claims that Rose Bay has IATA code RSE - is that accurate? Was there an equivalent code for Newcastle CBD/Hunter River when Sydney Seaplanes operated that service? Could travel agents / booking channels sell these tickets "normally?" I remember booking mine direct through the web site.

[Capt Fathom]

Not a "twotter" Aircraft proposed is a Cessna Caravan.

15 passengers would be a good load in a Caravan!

"The company estimates each flight would be able to carry 15 passengers, each paying about $300 for a one-way ticket."

"Sydney Seaplanes would use a 15-passenger de Havilland Twin Otter seaplane like the one pictured."

You wouldn't think there were too many spare Otters floating around! :}

[neville_nobody]

So how does this all work in IMC? The departure/arrival/approach tracking alone is difficult once in cloud. You could make up some IFR Water Approaches and some SIDs & STARs but how low are they going to get you with all the terrain around? Not to mention the icing. Unless they are prepared to throw alot of money at this operation I doubt it will get off the ground.

[Blueyonda]

You wouldn't think there were too many spare Otters floating around! https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Maybe a cunning stunt CF??

[Global Aviator]

So how does this all work in IMC? The departure/arrival/approach tracking alone is difficult once in cloud. You could make up some IFR Water Approaches and some SIDs & STARs but how low are they going to get you with all the terrain around? Not to mention the icing. Unless they are prepared to throw alot of money at this operation I doubt it will get off the ground.

Did you mean off the water? :)

[layman]

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7044469/there-could-soon-be-a-new-way-to-commute-to-sydney/

A 208 for the 'proving' flight with larger capacity (Twin Otter) if sufficient demand?

If the report in the Canberra Times is accurate, the National Capital Authority seem to have a positive view depending on issues to be addressed (safe passenger loading/unloading, refuelling, etc)

Terrain, near lake buildings, current lack of navaids ... approach & take-off options may be somewhat restricted.

Black Mountain Tower is about 475 metres above lake level, about 2.5km NW from West Basin

I’d like to see it work but am not too hopeful.

[geeup]

Well that’s one way to go broke I guess...

[George Glass]

I have flown the Twin Otter and it is a magnificent aircraft. But it is purpose designed to go where other aircraft cant.
Think the Himalayas ( Kathmandu - Lukla) , PNG or island hopping.
Flat out it will do 180 kts but usually 150-160. A Dash 8-400 300-350kts .
Bouncing around at 10,000 ft for an hour in summer or through a cold front in winter ? I don’t think so.
Maybe save a few minutes to and from the airport.
Maybe novelty value for tourists but thats about bit.

[machtuk]

I wish 'em luck, they are gunna need lots of it! -)

[Lookleft]

Its thought bubbles like this that requires you to start with a large fortune in aviation...you know the rest.

[Australopithecus]

I have flown from Coal Harbour in Vancouver over to Victoria a few times and enjoyed every minute. That’s a flight about a third of the distance SYD-CBR. So figure on 1:10 plus vectors and arrival for a flight getting bashed in low level turbulence. Sign me up!

[morno]

Great idea but I can't see the Government allowing it on strategic policy grounds. CASA would, I think also not allow it even if it was technically possible. There will be a demonstration flight and then the project will be allowed to die in a welter of committees.

My reasoning is simple; Such a service, were it permitted and succeeds, would provide a constant reminder of the utility of General aviation (Little aircraft) to the public, public servants and legislators. Its the perfect advertisement for GA - which is why it can't be permitted.

A successful service raises a whole series of very uncomfortable policy questions for the Department of Transport and CASA. Here are some of them:

- Considering the billions we have spent on Sydney transport systems, Badgery's creek, freeways, etc. Why is this service even needed? Could it be that our major investment has been wasted? Our transport planning does not allow for floatplanes! Especially not in a designed environment like Canberra!

- Considering that the National Capital now has a floatplane service, how can any government or authority reject applications for similar services across Australia? It's the thin end of the wedge! How do we prevent private float planes from landing?

- What does this do to our "Green" credentials? Will Labor support such a service? The greens will go nuts!

- Considering the success of this service, what does this demonstration of the usefulness of GA aircraft mean for our policy positions on such things as airport privatisation, infrastructure investment as well as transport planning? What just happened to our "One size fits all" big airport model?

- How can CASA regulate or interfere with such a highly visible service? How do they regulate other services? With what effect?

These are just a few of the uncomfortable questions that would be asked but mustn't.

You are a miserable human being. Does anything good ever happen in your day Sunfish? Or do you wake up angry, stay angry and then go to bed angry?

[Checklist Charlie]

It's a shame you can't open a thread now without the usual suspects engaging in a childish pi$$ing contest and a bit of little willy waving.

Both entertaining and sad at the same time.

CC

[Eclan]

You are a miserable human being. Does anything good ever happen in your day Sunfish? Or do you wake up angry, stay angry and then go to bed angry?
Actually, I think he's spot on re the outlook on GA by various elements of gov't. He doesn't sound angry or miserable to me; cynical maybe, correct too, but not angry. The meds must've kicked in. This is not the Sunfish who has left the building in disgust numerous times, this is the medicated but clear-thinking version. I think the other version is more entertaining.

[601]

- What does this do to our "Green" credentials? Will Labor support such a service? The greens will go nuts!

Just get a battery powered Twin Otter and every pollie will be lining up.

You wouldn't think there were too many spare Otters floating around!

Just buy new Viking Twin Otter
https://www.vikingair.com/viking-aircraft/dhc-6-twin-otter

[J.O.]

This service was single pilot, no flight attendant. Each passenger was issued a belt mounted life jacket which you had to have at the ready during the flight (though you didn't actually fully don it). My understanding is this was a condition of approval for single engine operations in RPT - you must always be within gliding distance of a landing area, and the ocean counted but it was presumed an ocean landing would not necessarily be upright, hence the life jackets.

If you aren't wearing it when you hit the water, it may as well be stuffed inside your left boot for all the good it will do you.

[OldLurker]

So how does this all work in IMC? The departure/arrival/approach tracking alone is difficult once in cloud. You could make up some IFR Water Approaches and some SIDs & STARs but how low are they going to get you with all the terrain around? Not to mention the icing. Unless they are prepared to throw alot of money at this operation I doubt it will get off the ground.There's at least one seaplane base with instrument procedures: Greenville, Maine (http://www.airnav.com/airport/52B). But in Alaska, where floatplane operations are routine, even their busiest place, Lake Hood near Anchorage, doesn't have instrument procedures AFAIK.

[Sunfish]

Vag and Morno, I fail to understand how you got the idea that I want such a service to fail???? I very much want to see it succeed! What my post attempted to do was catalogue some of the barriers to getting such a service in place.

The company is going to need a PR strategy to ensure that all the barriers, including the ones I've mentioned, are surmounted. If they fail to do that, they may succeed technically but lose the battle.

For example the "Green" argument needs to be addressed e.g No need for expensive infrastructure and very small environmental footprint. Minimises road use and automotive greenhouse gas emission, etc., etc.

I would very much like to see far more use made of floatplanes for short haul as well as tourism. My mate floatplane pilot "Rocket Rod" would agree. They are one of my favourite modes of transport. Last float trip was a caravan from Hanoi to Halong Bay which saves about three hours on the road.

[rigpiggy]

I have ridden the Single Otter from Victoria to Vancouver, and it is a gorgeous flight - over water all the way, perfect for a forced landing in a single floatplane. Our baggage went by bus on the ferry - not much space in an Otter when you put the pax on board.

Somebody in CA$A will be licking his lips as he contemplates the Fees and Charges applicable to this simple run. And Sydney Airports Corporation will be screaming about missing out on a landing fee.

I understand a turbo Otter is a 3400# payload machine so 10 peeps at 250#(includes bags) and 1.5 hr fuel is at about 3300#

[Turnleft080]

How about this for a proposal operation. It's only a brainstorm.
If the economics work, what about the Beriev BE-200 would that work.

The Beriev Be-200 Altair (Russian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): Бериев Бе-200) is a utility amphibious aircraft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_aircraft) designed and built by the Beriev Aircraft Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriev). Marketed as being designed for fire fighting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_firefighting), search and rescue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_rescue), maritime patrol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_patrol), cargo, and passenger transportation, it has a capacity of 12,000 litres (3,200 US gal) of water, or up to 72 passengers.
https://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2016/9/29/786136as.jpghttps://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2016/9/27/785540as.jpghttps://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2016/9/26/784888as.jpg
As you can see this aircraft has all the equipment like a 737NG, regarding IFR and weather terrain etc, they could easily design
a non Pan-Ops proprietary RNP-AR approach into Lake Burley Griffen and Rose bay.
I suppose the only problem is funding, CASA, and the Greenies.

[evansb]

Seaplane? Take the Australian ultra-high speed train. Enjoy a snack of low-tide Thai sushi, and a plastic flute of luke-warm Yellow Tail wine !

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Beriev Be-200
Except that there are only 17 in existence, and none of them are used to carry passengers. It needs 1000m to take off and 1300m to land. The lake looks pretty limited to where you can get those distances with a reasonable clearance from land. Can't imagine that a noisy jet in and out of CBR's lake would be very popular either.

[Global Aviator]

Ahhh ok if the Be-200 is too noisy how about the - Spruce Goose?

Hang on before you call me crazy, Clive Palmer was going to build the Titanic II! Surely he will be interested in the Goose II!!!

Think about it, now this has serious merit.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1125x733/660455ec_37cd_4c0f_9bb6_ce6959f6dae8_713b6905bd720abd458e46a 16bbbf2dd8cf80d28.jpeg

[Lead Balloon]

Seaplane? Take the Australian ultra-high speed train. Enjoy a snack of low-tide Thai sushi, and a plastic flute of luke-warm Yellow Tail wine !
Ah yes. Australia’s version of the Japanese ‘Bullet Train’: The ****-Can-Zen.

[Turnleft080]

Maybe the Short Sunderlands should make a come back. At least it's probably got better climb performance than HH monstrosity.

[aroa]

HH Goose. An early WIGE ? since it only flew in ground effect could call it the SanFransico Bay Monster or wherever it was tested.
Recent news shows that great beast the Caspian Sea Monster. one of being saved from a watery grave.
I'd like to see that,!

As for the seaplane service..great idea, but CAsA doesnt like enterpreneurs. Hope it gets up but I would posit red tape, green tape and time will make it very difficilt..if not impossible

[no_one]

HH Goose. An early WIGE ? since it only flew in ground effect could call it the SanFransico Bay Monster or wherever it was tested.
Recent news shows that great beast the Caspian Sea Monster. one of being saved from a watery grave.
I'd like to see that,!

As for the seaplane service..great idea, but CAsA doesnt like enterpreneurs. Hope it gets up but I would posit red tape, green tape and time will make it very difficilt..if not impossible
I doubt the economics work out but something like this between sydney and canberra would be cool... A little faster than twin otter on floats....
https://dornierseawings.com/products/seastar/

I wonder if you can leave out the landing gear i.e. commit to be water only and have a higher useful load....

[neville_nobody]

Seaplane? Take the Australian ultra-high speed train. Enjoy a snack of low-tide Thai sushi, and a plastic flute of luke-warm Yellow Tail wine !

Why? A seaplane is more environmentally friendly, faster and cheaper.

[George Glass]

Why? A seaplane is more environmentally friendly, faster and cheaper.

Faster ?
Shanghai Maglev 431kph / 232 kts
Shinkansen 359 kph / 194 kts
TGV 320 kph / 173 kts plus.
Twin Otter cruise speed at 10,000 ft 182kts , probably slower on floats.
Personally when in Europe ( and if I ever get back there ) I don’t bother with aircraft.
Trains are way easier.

[jportzer]

I doubt the economics work out but something like this between sydney and canberra would be cool... A little faster than twin otter on floats....
https://dornierseawings.com/products/seastar/

I wonder if you can leave out the landing gear i.e. commit to be water only and have a higher useful load....

Can't imagine you would want to give up the ability to land at nearby airports... that adds so much flexibility (and risk reduction). Not to mention much better maintenance and storage conditions on land.

[layman]

Heard a news report the proving flight landing is to happen at 11:00AM today (Tuesday, 15 December).

[Lookleft]

Its now 13:10, what, if anything, happened?

[Blueyonda]

VH-IOV It came, it saw, it went.

[neville_nobody]

Faster ?
Shanghai Maglev 431kph / 232 kts
Shinkansen 359 kph / 194 kts
TGV 320 kph / 173 kts plus.
Twin Otter cruise speed at 10,000 ft 182kts , probably slower on floats.
Personally when in Europe ( and if I ever get back there ) I don’t bother with aircraft.
Trains are way easier.

Door to door it would be faster on the Twin Otter. A High Speed train isn't going to pull out of Central and start doing 300KM/H. Additional to that Trains don't go in a straight line so it would have further to travel.

[layman]

From the Canberra Times
Sydney Seaplanes demonstration flight from Rose Bay to Lake Burley Griffin to test for future route | The Canberra Times | Canberra, ACT (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7055708/historic-seaplane-landing-on-lake-burley-griffin-could-signal-bold-new-way-to-travel/?cs=14225)

Article said 1st take-off of the day would be from Canberra Airport (in winter at least).

Comments from National Capital Authority and similar seem to be fairly positive e.g. "...we don't have a fundamental problem with it. It could potentially be very good for tourism and activation of the lake."

Just wondering if the prevailing north-westerly winds would mean an approach over the Chinese Embassy ...

[TBM-Legend]

Faster ?
Shanghai Maglev 431kph / 232 kts
Shinkansen 359 kph / 194 kts
TGV 320 kph / 173 kts plus.
Twin Otter cruise speed at 10,000 ft 182kts , probably slower on floats.
Personally when in Europe ( and if I ever get back there ) I don’t bother with aircraft.
Trains are way easier.

Nice but when I'm in the Maldives I take a Twin Otter on floats - much more comfortable and quicker than the boats...

[Duck Pilot]

I doubt CASA would approve a Caravan on floats to do RPT in between Sydney and Canberra. I also doubt the aircraft would be approved for ASEPTA with floats on. How can the aircraft achieve the engine failure after take off turn back requirements with floats under it? I could understand them approving RPT up the coast to Newcastle if all the flying was done over water, however anything over land and particularly in between Sydney and Canberra doesn’t make sense. Winter would be interesting with freezing levels below lowest safes in an aircraft without boots, thought we stopped doing that kind of RPT stuff about 15 years ago.

I also doubt it was a proving flight with CASA onboard approving the operation to use a Twin Otter. A proving flight is normally done with the introduction of a new type and/or a new RPT route. Has the company actually got a Twin Otter on floats in Australia?

[Global Aviator]

Here’s the beast!

https://dornierseawings.com/products/seastar/

Multi IFR and fast. Not cheap to buy but operationally looks great.

[MickG0105]

Has the company actually got a Twin Otter on floats in Australia?
A quick scan of the register turns up zero Twotters with VH- regos so I'm guessing no.

[Tooheys]

Just had a quick look at the Dornier website .
85% Chinese owned now !
It’s like a viral video clip , everyday there’s a new one of someone selling out to the chinese.

[MickG0105]

Here’s the beast!

https://dornierseawings.com/products/seastar/

Multi IFR and fast. Not cheap to buy but operationally looks great.
The Dornier lineage all the way back 100 years to the Do J "Whale (https://images.app.goo.gl/dMw14Ex7JZN4JS5A8)" is pretty striking.

[Duck Pilot]

Well it would be pretty fare to assume that this thread is fake news without a Twin Otter on the Australian register to be seen!

I though there was still a 200 series Twin Otter (ex P2-ALS) still being operated out of the Gold Coast, has that been exported? Not sure what the Australian registration was.

[Capt Fathom]

There are 2 on the register. Running around the Brisbane area to Lady Elliot Island.

[MickG0105]

Well it would be pretty fare to assume that this thread is fake news without a Twin Otter on the Australian register to be seen!

I though there was still a 200 series Twin Otter (ex P2-ALS) still being operated out of the Gold Coast, has that been exported? Not sure what the Australian registration was.
On the basis that I've looked straight past my keys when I've been looking for them it would be fair to say that it's not beyond the realm of possibilities I missed them.

On second look it turns out that unlike virtually every other DHC model on the register where there's either a space or hyphen separating DHC from the model number, the Twotters are under 'DHC6' (and that's despite there being DHC-6 Series 200 and DHC-6-300 on the drop down).

Any old how, so yes, two. BVS and ZKF.

[Capt Fathom]

Don’t sweat it Mick, the CASA rego website is not that intuitive! Indeed, DHC-6 comes up with zero! Go figure!

[MickG0105]

Don’t sweat it Mick, the CASA rego website is not that intuitive! Indeed, DHC-6 comes up with zero! Go figure!
Ta. I've never been keen to blame my tools for poor work. Searches using "DHC-6 Series 200" and "DHC-6-300", which actually appear in the drop down for Model, also turn up zero. A salutary lesson learned.

[TBM-Legend]

Full marks to Sydney Seaplanes for commiting more aviation. It's laughable to read the comments from the peanut gallery - but it is the silly season.

[Lead Balloon]

One meteorological phenomenon and one person may be substantial impediments to this plan:

Fog.

Snow.

[Lookleft]

but it is the silly season.

Exactly. Which is why the whole idea of a Sydney-Canberra seaplane service is just a way to generate publicity.

LB-I see what you did there, tch boom.

[BendyFlyer]

Takes me back about 40 years and as some of us may recall this has been tried before by the Late Vic Walton and Aquatic Airways in the 1980s. Same problems - wrong aeroplane, too few seats, too few passengers, too many weather issues and of course the Regulator on top of all that. Nice idea but completely uneconomical at any level!

[The Banjo]

One meteorological phenomenon and one person may be substantial impediments to this plan:

Fog.

Snow.

wander over to Vancouver and observe the floatplane operation there. Fog and snow don't seem to be a show stopper for them.

[harrryw]

wander over to Vancouver and observe the floatplane operation there. Fog and snow don't seem to be a show stopper for them.
Do they have CASA in Vancouver?

[Lookleft]

They won’t have CASA and they won’t have “Snow” like Canberra has “Snow”.

ps I got it LB, the others are just a bit “snow” on the uptake.

[Lead Balloon]

Ha! And a 'tish boom' for you, now.

[SRFred]

Winter extension, on to Jindabyne and the snow fields!

[Max Tow]

Perhaps not the most helpful photo (even allowing for telephoto foreshortening)...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-01/seaplane-proposal-yacht-club-concerns/100180740

[layman]

Proposed approach path seems to be downwind for much of the year - as is takeoff.

The yacht club is about halfway along the south side of the proposed ‘runway’.

Was there one day when there were about 20 dinghies becalmed in that area (part of a school holiday sailing program). It took the yacht club about 30 minutes to tow them in.

I think it’s going to take a bit of work to get this running safely.

[neville_nobody]

The yacht club doesn't have some God-given right to monopolise a lake. It is a public water course and the aircraft has the same "right" to access it as the yacht Club or any member of the general public who wants to go rowing or sailing. Once it touches down the aircraft is just another speed boat. How it gets into the lake, whether it be by air or a trailer is irrelevant.

[Lead Balloon]

...and there is a prohibition on the use of any powered vessel on LB-G.

Some electric vessels, some outboard-motored rowing school support vessels and a couple of tourist ferries have exemptions, but you ain't gonna see any "speed boat" out there on a normal day.

Setting all that aside... walk me through why all the little tackers on their becalmed or otherwise sailboats are obliged to make way for a seaplane.

[wombat watcher]

It is straight out garbage.
There can’t be any more competing interest than the floatplanes V the sailboats on Sydney Harbour in Oz.
one of the most under-utilised water areas in Oz is Lake Burley Griffin.
typical parochial Canberra approach.

[neville_nobody]

...and there is a prohibition on the use of any powered vessel on LB-G.

I don't live in Canberra so wasn't aware of that one. Could be a problem for the seaplanes.

The sailing boats don't give way to anyone they have right of way. From what I understand of the article they want to have a seaplane lane established on the lake where the boats aren't suppose to go which I gather is what the Commodore is complaining about.

[MickG0105]

It is a public water course and the aircraft has the same "right" to access it as the yacht Club or any member of the general public who wants to go rowing or sailing.
That's not quite correct. Your right to use Lake Burley Griffin for rowing and sailing is largely unfettered - non-powered craft such as sailing boats and rowing boats do not require a permit to go onto the Lake. It's a very different regime for anything that is powered. The National Capital Authority governs how powered craft can use the lake under the Lakes Ordinance 1976. The NCA is fairly restrictive with regards to internal combustion engines on the lake; for example powered boats used for private recreational purposes are restricted to the use of electric motors only whilst on the Lake.

[Global Aviator]

That's not quite correct. Your right to use Lake Burley Griffin for rowing and sailing is largely unfettered - non-powered craft such as sailing boats and rowing boats do not require a permit to go onto the Lake. It's a very different regime for anything that is powered. The National Capital Authority governs how powered craft can use the lake under the Lakes Ordinance 1976. The NCA is fairly restrictive with regards to internal combustion engines on the lake; for example powered boats used for private recreational purposes are restricted to the use of electric motors only whilst on the Lake.

Problem solved - electric Beavers! (Ok I know it doesn’t have the range)

:ok:

[Foxxster]

Problem solved - electric Beavers! (Ok I know it doesn’t have the range)

:ok:

electric beaver ? Sounds like an option on one of those Japanese sex dolls.

[Lookleft]

I think the 2nd biggest impediment to the whole thing is the single engine performance in case one fails. Those turns required after take-off with a stiff westerly just invoke images of the Potomac Bridge disaster. It will be a "brave" bureaucrat at the NDC that puts their stamp of approval on that proposal.

[Global Aviator]

electric beaver ? Sounds like an option on one of those Japanese sex dolls.

Although I’m sure you know -

https://www.harbourair.com/about/corporate-responsibility/goingelectric/

As for the Japanese... ahhh ok I’ll stop there!

[layman]

Report from the ABC
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-17/national-capital-authority-seaplanes-lake-burley-griffin/100707800

NCA support the planned use. Possibly two
operators - Sydney Seaplanes (3 flights a day) & South Coast Seaplanes (once or twice a week)

Working group to address issues raised in the 107 submissions to starting meetings in February.

[megan]

I think the 2nd biggest impediment to the whole thing is the single engine performance in case one failsOne of these STOL performers should fix that.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1083/9906_japan_maritime_self_defence_force_jmsdf_shinmaywa_us_2_ planespottersnet_1002986_d0eee5b46f_o_06b55767e87e1762d0c189 9fde7d97648c89feee.jpg

[rattman]

One of these STOL performers should fix that.





Maybe one of these are on the cards

https://australianaviation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/An-illustration-showing-what-the-next-generation-Albatross-will-look-like.-.jpg

https://australianaviation.com.au/2021/12/albatross-flying-boat-returns-and-will-be-built-in-nt/

[megan]

When in flight training there were dozens of Albatross parked wing tip to wing tip along the sea wall at Pensacola, thought them a lovely aircraft, but please, please, if they're going to manufacture them again keep the radials instead of those whining turbines. :{ It's OK, I'll get over it.

[Foxxster]

I wonder if I am alone in wondering how in hell this plan would ever make business sense. I just can’t see who will actually use it. Is the trip from Sydney to Canberra that scenic that people want to take a low slow plane when they can get a fast jet. Or drive in only 3 hours and have their car to use when they get there.

[tail wheel]

You're not alone.........

[Bleve]

I know of a Canberra businessman who hated flying and drove to Sydney for a meeting. One of his colleagues hated driving so flew instead. On the return, the businessman dropped his colleague at Sydney airport, then drove to Canberra airport where he waited to give his colleague a lift home.

[Lead Balloon]

Best way to get back and forth between Canberra and Sydney CBDs? Bus.

Under $50 return. Internet access the entire trip. No security rigmarole. Over a dozen trips a day.

I know a number of highly paid execs who take the bus. (Public servants wouldn’t of course ‘lower’ themselves to take the bus.)

[Icarus2001]

I am still amazed that there is no fast train service between the two.

[Lead Balloon]

These days we're just hoping for a 'slightly less slow' train. The track from Goulburn to Canberra is in a speed-limiting state of disrepair.

[Doors Off]

These days we're just hoping for a 'slightly less slow' train. The track from Goulburn to Canberra is in a speed-limiting state of disrepair.

Brace yourself for the “Fast” rail marketing, election year coming up and the classic “fast” rail BS will roll out again. Been going on for 40 years, with outstanding results.

Utopia have it nailed. Both Major parties are a disgrace, incredibly out of touch and a corrupt stain on our country. You bet your fast rail ticket that some multi property owning MP has an interest or a debt to get the Gloatplane service running.

[Foxxster]

I am still amazed that there is no fast train service between the two.


Because it makes absolutely no economic sense whatsoever. And never will. Before people start spouting off about Japan, China, Europe etc, for a start their population densities are multiple times what we have between Sydney and Melbourne or Sydney and Newcastle. Although out dear leaders would love nothing more than to turn the entire east coast into Shanghai mark 2 via massive immigration.

japanese and Chinese fast rail companies are debt laden … with their massive population.

https://youtu.be/eLCa6Vl7EeQ

https://youtu.be/4wsMjxESAY0

https://www.cato.org/blog/lesson-japans-high-speed-trains (https://youtu.be/4wsMjxESAY0)

[Icarus2001]

Foxxster, by fast I mean say 140-160 kms. Not bullet speed, or maglev. Just a respectable speed. Most train speeds in Australia are limited by track quality. Fix the tracks and you get a “fast” train.
The line is already there and in use. Four and a half hours to do 320km FFS.

[MickG0105]

Foxxster, by fast I mean say 140-160 kms. Not bullet speed, or maglev. Just a respectable speed. Most train speeds in Australia are limited by track quality. Fix the tracks and you get a “fast” train.
The line is already there and in use. Four and a half hours to do 320km FFS.
For Sydney - Canberra it's not quite as simple as "fix the tracks" unless you mean "re-route the tracks". The section of the rail line that places the critical limit on Sydney - Canberra speeds (and therefore travel time) is between Macarthur and Mittagong. As you can see by the routing below, the best maintained tracks in the world aren't going to make much of a difference to the speed at which a train can negotiate that. Those pesky train-specific issues of maximum negotiable gradients and turn radii rain on that parade.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1287x990/screenshot_20211223_081337_maps_1a8ca46a8c1ad79c827ad0a09624 727e01efee02.jpg

[Icarus2001]

So the train slows down where required, as all trains do but get the average speed up. Yes if some realignment is needed then do it. If travel time was closer to two hours then it would be viable.

We all know the reason no government is interested in trains anywhere near SYD- CBR is some very strong interest groups who provide chairman’s lounge and business class trinkets.

[MickG0105]

So the train slows down where required, as all trains do but get the average speed up. Yes if some realignment is needed then do it. If travel time was closer to two hours then it would be viable.

We all know the reason no government is interested in trains anywhere near SYD- CBR is some very strong interest groups who provide chairman’s lounge and business class trinkets.
If you want two hours Sydney - Canberra, you need to average 145 km/h point-to-point. That means you need to be hitting 160 - 180 km/h for most of the journey. Those speeds require minimum turn radii of 1.2 - 1.4 kilometres and grades not exceeding 1 in 30 for any significant distance. Between Campbelltown and Mittagong you currently routinely encounter sub-0.4 kilometre radius turns. Around places like Sutton Forest, Tallong, Towrang, Mount Fairy and Queanbeyan you've got a number of 0.5 - sub-1 kilometre radius turns. So, it's more than just "some realignment" that is needed, not if needed.

[SRFred]

Surely you don't need a high speed service into Canberra/ACT rather you need a high speed service OUT of Canberra.

[Icarus2001]

Read my post, I said CLOSER to two hours.

I am well aware of turn radius requirements and gradients but none of these problems are unsolvable.

[lucille]

Float plane rumour somehow devolves into high speed rail slanging match. Ya gotta luv the Aussie forums for spirited thread drift.

So, back to the hilarious idea of a floatplane service… With Canberra sloshing around in subsidy cash, I’d be inclined to propose restarting the Nomad production line, finding a test pilot silly enough to have a crack at certifying an N-24 on floats and just run with the torrent of subsidies this proposal would deliver.

[Duck Pilot]

Maybe one of these are on the cards

https://australianaviation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/An-illustration-showing-what-the-next-generation-Albatross-will-look-like.-.jpg

https://australianaviation.com.au/2021/12/albatross-flying-boat-returns-and-will-be-built-in-nt/

Thread drift however indirectly related, probably deserves a separate thread.

This is an Elephant in the room. I know a lot of Territorians will eagerly support this project if it gets traction. Get a few people in the organisation who know how to navigate the CASA processes and Australia will be producing aircraft again, and something very unique.

[rcoight]

Thread drift however indirectly related, probably deserves a separate thread.

This is an Elephant in the room. I know a lot of Territorians will eagerly support this project if it gets traction. Get a few people in the organisation who know how to navigate the CASA processes and Australia will be producing aircraft again, and something very unique.

If someone from AAI can “get close” to someone in the NT government it will help…

[Foxxster]

Not sure if this still has legs. I would think the existing business would be bleeding money with no international tourists, recent lockdowns in Sydney, border closures keeping interstate tourists out, and with that new multi million dollar revamp of the restaurant which like every other hospitality venue, must have been decimated. I wonder how long the cash flow can last. Doubt they will be wanting to branch out into an unproven expensive new route.

[layman]

Trials to start "this week" Sydney Seaplanes and South Coast Seaplanes conducting the trials ... to Rose Bay. Didn't see a mention of flights to the coast. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-15/trial-seaplanes-taking-off-from-lake-burley-griffin-sydney-route/102096748

[Duck Pilot]

Are the trial flights CASA proving flights or air transport flights open to the general public?

Caravans and Maule Rockets on floats I assume.

Good luck to them.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Any idea of the location of the CB Base 'office' on the shores of...?


Also, Lake Burley Griffin has been known to collect some 'floating debris' after flooding incidents.......You'all be careful out there, d'ya hear..?

(See G.E. photo on 'Yarralumla Beach' the one in de middle of de beach...)

VFR Only..? And, I also concur with Mr F # 84........


Lotsa Luck.

[Capn Bloggs]

Any idea of the location of the CB Base 'office' on the shores of...?
Why's that, Griffo? You going to set up a CAGRO/SFIS/AFIZ/MBZO/"CB Radio"? Your redundo needs a topup??!! :p​​​​​​​

[Duck Pilot]

Kingston Foreshore where the BIG KNOBS hang out 😀😀😀😀😀

[Ascend Charlie]

The videos show single-engine floaties, but the thread title is "Twin Otter" - when did they downgrade to singles?
If a single has engine problems, there are few areas enroute for a float landing.

[PiperCameron]

The videos show single-engine floaties, but the thread title is "Twin Otter" - when did they downgrade to singles?
If a single has engine problems, there are few areas enroute for a float landing.

SETPs are generally known to have fairly high reliability, but if they can land their floatie safely on something as tiny as LB-G I'm sure they'd have no trouble putting it down safely in someone's nice, soft, paddock.

It's quite likely Sydney Seaplanes would use their electric floatplanes on this route if they can. If so, it'll be interesting to see how that goes (sneaking up on unsuspecting dinghy sailors!).

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Aye Aye Cap'n.......,


Imagine sittin' in de sun....doin' a bit of fishin'.......3 flights per day WOW!! BUSY HOUR!


Oh, and did Oi mention 'topping up' that 'redundo'..??