Charter versus government owned aircraft

[mickjoebill]

Biz jet can be efficient means to transport a corporate team across a continent, especially if multi stops are required in a single day.

Former Senator Mathias Cormann’s itinerary is lengthy but the schedule does not appear too tight to justify a private jet on these grounds alone.(21 flights in 30 days and counting)

Be that as it may, a figure of A$4k per hour for the RAAF Falcon 7X has been provided by government and is quoted by press as the cost to the Australian taxpayer.

This presumably doesn’t include ATC fees, ground handling and parking, which for a 37 tonne jet, which is half the weight of an A320, begin to add up in Europe. How much to empty the planes dunnies at a European international airport?


The flight log thus far, commenced on Nov 8th:
Canberra-Perth -Muskrat-Anarka-Copenhagen-Berlin-Zurich-Bern-Ljubljana-Bern-Luxembourgh-Brussels-Madrid-Lisbon-Vienna-Budapest-Le Bourget -Geneva-Ponta Delgada (Azores)- Bogata-Santiago-Bogata-?


What are the usual ways to calculate the actual cost of a journey on a government aircraft to the tax payer? The Falcon is leased.

What would be the cost had a Falcon 7X been chartered?

Reports of 8-10 passengers plus crew.

Mjb

[TWOTBAGS]

"What would be the cost had a Falcon 7X been chartered?"

A civil operated 7X goes for between US$7-8K per hour and there is about 50 hours flying in the route you've mentioned so US$400k so far not including enroute and landing charges, handling, catering, crew accommodation & costs, ground transport, admin and planning etc etc etc so add in another $100-150k per month for a 3 person crew. Lets call it US$500..... so somewhere shy of AU$700k so far for the plane alone.

[Checkboard]

US$7-8K per hour includes fees!

... and presumably if it's a RAAF Falcon, it's flown by RAAF officers, who wouldn't be pulling $100-150k per month for a 3 person crew.

[drpixie]

More likely, the $4k is just the absolute minimum the gov can claim - for face-saving and bull****ting purposes.
$US8k/hr seems much more likely for that size aircraft ... perhaps $AU4k is just the fuel !?
Or some silly accounting trick to pull the wool on the public.

[Global Aviator]

Yep first time I read that 4k I thought where can I buy a few thousand hours and then sell it on at less than the real cost.

The gov propaganda machine rolls on.

Nice bit of kit thou!

[Squawk7700]

I’m eagerly waiting for someone to say “but they are flying it anyway for training, so it doesn’t cost anything.”

Same with the cops. Ask a pilot what it costs to run the Leonardo AW139 and he’ll tell you it’s $1,500 an hour for fuel.

[chimbu warrior]

$100-150k per month

Sign me up please!

[Bodie1]

So, we're going to whinge about the 'cost' of getting a seat on the OECD, not only a seat but the lead. FFS. Looks to be cost effective considering the benefits. CFW (Continual ******* Whinge) as my old man used to say.

Now, about those New Years Eve Fireworks............

[Anti Skid On]

I know bugger all about said senator, but presume him and his entourage would not travel cattle class. If he and his entourage were to do the same trip, basically a round the world with lots of European side trips, what would the cost be, especially in COVID times. For a country the size of Aussie the cost is minimal, plus the crew are getting lots of hours in their logs

[swh]

This presumably doesn’t include ATC fees, ground handling and parking, which for a 37 tonne jet, which is half the weight of an A320, begin to add up in Europe.


The C in ICAO is for civil, the aircraft is classified as a state aircraft, different rules apply.

[thorn bird]

First thing I'd ask is what is the estimated cost of an hour of the time for each passenger carried?

Then I'd look at how much time would it would take for those passengers to complete the task utilising normal commercial aviation including extra accomodation costs and time waiting for connecting flights.

Then compare this to the time saved by utilising a private aircraft. The savings might surprise some people.

[mickjoebill]

The thread relates to cost of State versus charter aircraft.

The trip is to aid a former senator in a role where country is not represented.

The State claim a cost of $4k per hour as if this is the only cost.

The public are entitled to know the actual cost (including crew wages and back office ect ) and also the comparative value of the flight were it made with a charter company, because there is indeed questions relating to the value of this help bestowed on a private job seeker.


They are currently heading from Columbia toward the USA.


Mjb

[Global Aviator]

Couldn’t be doing this trip on the airlines now anyway.

Actual cost is more likely double the cost quoted.

Try chartering a Falcon and you will soon find out the commercial charter rates.

I have no issue with government corporate jets they are used for a reason, what I hate is the blul**** propaganda machine making it sound a lot cheaper than what it is.

$4000 an hour doesn’t even get you an entry level 6 seat jet in the real world!

[aroa]

Bodie ! There was recent article a few W/E Auatralians ago whe Ergas? Kenny ? gave a spiel on exactly this subject and the gist was the OECD in Europe will lead to the life of abject luxury for this now private citizen and that the return on investment to the Oz taxpayer will be ZILCH. Whether he gets the job or not
It really just reinforces the view that bureaurats and pollies just LOVE to spend other peoples money any which way.. Its a life style thing...we're entitled.!

[brokenagain]

Then compare this to the time saved by utilising a private aircraft. The savings might surprise some people.

Exactly right. Time is money. Time spent sitting in lounges waiting for connecting flights is not taxpayer money spent well. I don’t understand the angst that people have towards politicians flying on charter/military flights. Especially for military flights, the flight hours are budgeted for anyway. If they weren’t flying a mission specific task like flying a politician around, they’d be flying a training sortie anyway. It just seems a case of whataboutism.

[Squawk7700]

the flight hours are budgeted for anyway. If they weren’t flying a mission specific task like flying a politician around, they’d be flying a training sortie anyway.

Bingo... and there it is.

No. Not on an aircraft that is typically tasked for VIP transport. It’s like saying that if we go to war, it won’t cost anything more than the ammunition, because they would be flying anyway. Or perhaps the bushfire response... that cost a fortune from the contingency budget.

[Petropavlovsk]

Pretty much on a global basis; third world countries excepted.

Government Ministers travel in Military VIP aircraft. It's the way business is done. It's is called showing the flag. Saving time, Security etc etc

Rarely except in the case of a Dictator is the Head of Sate aircraft anything more than a standard fit out; communications equipment excepted.

There is nothing flash about the RAAF Dassault Falcon 7X interiors. I had a peak inside the Queen's BAe146 when the aircraft was in Australia shortly before the Royal flight being disbanded. Spartan would be the word to describe the interior other than a few Crest's etc

Government's need VIP aircraft for Politicians and Military Chiefs. You will never hear the Government or Opposition arguing about the RAAF VIP fleet in Parliament as they are essential to conducting business. The flight hours are in the budget.

[Checkboard]

The other advantage of private aircraft is that you can spend the flight time in frank discussions/preparations for the next meeting.

The public nature of commercial flights stops that .. no not only are you saving executive time on not waiting for connections, the actual flight time becomes useful work time as well.

[601]

If the contract for the Falcon is anything like what I have been involved in, there would have been a flat yearly charge irrespective of the hours flown that covered up to a certain numbers of hours. After that number of hours were flown in that year, a rate/hr would then apply.

If it is a calendar basis, the Govt may be using up the hours already paid for under the flat yearly charge. Therefore it is not really costing us anything extra.
Just guessing.

[Lead Balloon]

A number of posters seem to be overlooking the fact that Mr Corman is a private citizen. He’s no longer a Senator. He’s no longer a politician. He’s a private citizen.

34SQN has a lot better things to do for the benefit of Australia than transporting a jobseeker trying out for a sinecure.

[jonkster]

A number of posters seem to be overlooking the fact that Mr Corman is a private citizen. He’s no longer a Senator. He’s no longer a politician. He’s a private citizen.

34SQN has a lot better things to do for the benefit of Australia than transporting a jobseeker trying out for a sinecure.

Centrelink requires you attend interviews as part of your "mutual obligation" if you want to keep the Jobseeker allowance. I assume he is just trying to do the right thing.

[mickjoebill]

Centrelink requires you attend interviews as part of your "mutual obligation" if you want to keep the Jobseeker allowance. I assume he is just trying to do the right thing.
Mathias tweeted the formal job interview was over last week in Europe. He said he had a “few more meetings” and flew to the Azores and on to South America. Then home via Honolulu today.

To those who say the Govt jet would have been doing something and it was positive the crew ticked off a few countries on the log book, well, you’ve missed the point of the thread.


The public should be told the cost of all the extras.

Te secondary point is what is the commercial value of the flights to Mathias? For instance, the army engineers build an extension to your home, the cost to the taxpayer is negligible, but the increase in value to your home is not.


Why didn’t this private citizen spend his own dollars, which could have gone to private charter companies and (non salaried?) civilian pilots?
Nov 7th Canberra-Perth -Muskrat-Anarka-Copenhagen-Berlin-Zurich-Bern-Ljubljana-Bern-Luxembourgh-Brussels-Madrid-Lisbon-Vienna-Budapest-Le Bourget -Geneva-Ponta Delgada (Azores)- Bogata-Santiago -Bogata-Cartagena-Honolulu-Canberra Dec 10

Mjb

[Bodie1]

Bodie ! There was recent article a few W/E Auatralians ago whe Ergas? Kenny ? gave a spiel on exactly this subject and the gist was the OECD in Europe will lead to the life of abject luxury for this now private citizen and that the return on investment to the Oz taxpayer will be ZILCH. Whether he gets the job or not
It really just reinforces the view that bureaurats and pollies just LOVE to spend other peoples money any which way.. Its a life style thing...we're entitled.!

For every article that takes this line, there'd be one that takes the opposite line I reckon.