Slingsby T21b WB935

[SlingsbyWB935]

Hello,
In 1994 we bought a Slingsby T21B in the South East of England. We kept our WB935 airworthy until today. and it is still flying at the Hahnweide airfield near Stuttgart, south of Germany. I am very interested in the history of gliding at the ATC. Concerning our T21 WB935 we only know it was build in 1948 and was operated at the RAF airfield Seyerston and RAF airfield St Athan. If anyone in this forum know more details about the history of our barge it would be great to get information and perhaps also old pictures from you. Thank you for your ear.

[condor17]

You may have this link already ?

Demobbed - Out of Service British Military Aircraft (http://www.demobbed.org.uk/aircraft.php?type=978#)

rgds condor .

[Thatsthewaytodoit]

I have WB935 in my logbook in March and May 1964, this was at RAF Spitalgate on 644GS although the aircraft may have belonged to No 1 Gliding Centre which I think has moved their for a time.

I assume that you have seen this thread: Air Cadet Gliding pix in the 80s (pre glass) - PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/284073-air-cadet-gliding-pix-80s-pre-glass.html?highlight=air+cadet+gliding)

Keep safe

TTWTDI

[SlingsbyWB935]

Thanks for the information. Yes i know the thread "Air Cadet Gliding..."

Merry Christmas
Martin

[SlingsbyWB935]

Yes, I have, thank you.

Regards,
Martin

[SlingsbyWB935]

Hello,
I found a link with a picture of WB935 at RAF Spitalgate.
The colour scheme ist all over silver with red nose at the fuselage and red stripes at fuselage and wings. I also found colour scheme all over silver with a yellow stripe at the fuselage. Does anyone know the difference? The colour scheme of our WB935 since we got it is black, white and red at the fuselage and silver-grey wings with red tips.

Thanks and regards
Martin

[mikemmb]

Sorry to be pedantic, but I think you have spelt “Seyerston” incorrectly (which could effect your searches) in your first post? I think it should be RAF Syerston which I pass quite often and is still very active as a gliding centre.
I may even have flown in your T21 as I had a number of glider flights at both St Athans & Syerston in the 60’s and 70’s. ...but unfortunately no records to confirm identity.
Good luck with the old girl!

[SlingsbyWB935]

Thanks for the info to the right spelling of RAF Syerston. It is fine to hear that you had a couple of flights in our barge. Do you know, whether the RAF 644 VGS also was established at St. Athan? Or was it another Volunteer Gliding Squadron ?

regards
Martin

[WE992]

I Can not believe that you want to be predantic about the spelling of Syerston and the mention St Athans which should not have the S on the end!

[mikemmb]

Oooops!

I'm standing in the naughty corner.

[Duchess_Driver]

Do you know, whether the RAF 644 VGS also was established at St. Athan? Or was it another Volunteer Gliding Squadron ?

If I am remembering correctly, St Athan was 634VGS and were disbanded in 2016.

644VGS are based at Syerston, as is ACCGS (are they still called that?)

[longer ron]

Hello,
I found a link with a picture of WB935 at RAF Spitalgate.
The colour scheme ist all over silver with red nose at the fuselage and red stripes at fuselage and wings. I also found colour scheme all over silver with a yellow stripe at the fuselage. Does anyone know the difference? The colour scheme of our WB935 since we got it is black, white and red at the fuselage and silver-grey wings with red tips.

Thanks and regards
Martin
Hi Martin
644 GS (Gliding School) was based at RAF Spitalgate (Grantham) for many years (1955 - 1975),then moved to RAF Syerston,and renamed 644 VGS in 1979.
The different colour schemes were used depending on decade (year) - the original scheme would have been Silver/Yellow (1950's) - then Silver/Dayglo (red) (1960's) and lastly - Grey/White/Red.
WB935 was my 2nd ever Glider Flight in May 1968 (age 15) when 'Doc' Ward took me up for 20 mins off the winch at RAF Spitalgate,I flew in 935 1 more time in 1969

[Brookmans Park]

The silver with yellow stripes paint scheme was used for most of the 1960s

[longer ron]

The silver with yellow stripes paint scheme was used for most of the 1960s

Hi BP
The dates I put in my post were just approximations for when a particular colour scheme came into use - I thought the Silver/Red scheme was introduced gradually from approx 1965 onwards ??

[longer ron]

Actually - thinking about it - I think the Silver/Red/Dayglo scheme must have started in the early 60's.
I joined the ATC in 1966 and I do not recall seeing a single 'In Service' aircraft still with the Silver/Yellow scheme.
Here is a lovely pic taken by H John Black at Gaydon in 1966,including a link to his Abpic page which has some lovely colour shots from the 1950's onwards.

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/photographer/H%20John%20Black/30/?f=&sort=date_approved&order=asc

https://i.imgur.com/RxAD2sK.jpg

[SlingsbyWB935]

Thank you to all giving informations to me about the different colour schemes .

Wish you a happy new year

regards
Martin

[BrassAPE]

Joining this thread late, but perhaps some extra information not included previously.

I flew in WB935 as an Air Cadet 3 times on 9th Aug 1984 at RAF Sealand (near Chester) - I recall it having the RAF training red and white colour scheme at the time (no photos).

[chevvron]

[QUOTE=longer ron;10957195]Actually - thinking about it - I think the Silver/Red/Dayglo scheme must have started in the early 60's.
I joined the ATC in 1966 and I do not recall seeing a single 'In Service' aircraft still with the Silver/Yellow scheme.
Here is a lovely pic taken by H John Black at Gaydon in 1966,including a link to his Abpic page which has some lovely colour shots from the 1950's onward/QUOTE]
First flight in 1962 at Halton and they were all dayglo/silver then

[SlingsbyWB935]

Thank you very much for your reply. Good to hear that our "Barge" was operated by the 631 VGS at a further RAF base .

Cheers
Martin

[POBJOY]

The ATC followed the 'Training' finish of the times. When I joined (1960) the gliders were silver with yellow bands, and were plastic self ad 'Dayglo'ed' by MGSP when the RAF went that way. It just so happened that the MGSP used to 'bin' loads of repair junk (inc safety harnesses that went from brown webbing sutton type) to turn box blue as per Chipmunks etc and off cuts of dayglo, and this ended up on the Kenley dump. This spawned a whole range of bumper motives including rather smart 2-3 gull motive as used for the enamel badges that the BGA supplied for your A&B or C Cert in the days when you did three solos and had the BGA badge on your uniform. The Dayglo was a sensible alternative for the yellow as it could not be missed, although the machines looked better with the yellow. When machines later went away for a major they came back with a doped red white finish (awful in my mind). The only good thing was the 'system' stayed the same with 3 solo's and a BGA Cert with a nice little book that you could present to someone and point out the message that requested that the holder of such a book would be grateful for any help that could be available if he had landed away from a normal airfield. I think mine was signed by Lord Brabazon of Tara !!!!. The discarded harness system went in my Beetle long before seat belts were required. The 'Dayglo' was always a plastic film as no dope at that time could give the same awareness factor of Dayglo.

[BEagle]

Ah yes - that little green booklet. Mine was obtained through the RAF GSA from RAF Locking when I was a CCF cadet:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/515x549/new_picture_1__1bda1df410792db0b3992ba05365a6f8f67e4f7e.jpg
Signed by 'Stavros':


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/827x567/new_picture_30e95e229a8d2cda2cc04a7a66be197eb7f121ba.jpg
'The Civil, Naval and Military Authorities, including the Police, are respectfully requested to aid and assist the holder of this certificate'....in 6 languages!

[Prangster]

Hi Martin
644 GS (Gliding School) was based at RAF Spitalgate (Grantham) for many years (1955 - 1975),then moved to RAF Syerston,and renamed 644 VGS in 1979.
The different colour schemes were used depending on decade (year) - the original scheme would have been Silver/Yellow (1950's) - then Silver/Dayglo (red) (1960's) and lastly - Grey/White/Red.
WB935 was my 2nd ever Glider Flight in May 1968 (age 15) when 'Doc' Ward took me up for 20 mins off the winch at RAF Spitalgate,I flew in 935 1 more time in 1969

Working from a dim memory my log book having gone AWOL during a house move. After solos at 643 GS Kirton in Lindsey I was traded to 644 at Spitalgate. I recall 3 barges on strength, 643 held 2. One of which currently resides in 617's old hanger at Scampton as does the units badge board. I certainly recall barges flying from Syerston just before the Ventures took over

[POBJOY]

[QUOTE=BEagle;11222443]Ah yes - that little green booklet. Mine was obtained through the RAF GSA from RAF Locking when I was a CCF cadet:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/515x549/new_picture_1__1bda1df410792db0b3992ba05365a6f8f67e4f7e.jpg
Signed by 'Stavros':


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/827x567/new_picture_30e95e229a8d2cda2cc04a7a66be197eb7f121ba.jpg
'The Civil, Naval and Military Authorities, including the Police, are respectfully requested to aid and assist the holder of this certificate'....in 6 languages![/QUOT
What happened to the C Beagle !!!

[chevvron]

The ATC followed the 'Training' finish of the times. When I joined (1960) the gliders were silver with yellow bands, and were plastic self ad 'Dayglo'ed' by MGSP when the RAF went that way. It just so happened that the MGSP used to 'bin' loads of repair junk (inc safety harnesses that went from brown webbing sutton type) to turn box blue as per Chipmunks etc and off cuts of dayglo, and this ended up on the Kenley dump. This spawned a whole range of bumper motives including rather smart 2-3 gull motive as used for the enamel badges that the BGA supplied for your A&B or C Cert in the days when you did three solos and had the BGA badge on your uniform. The Dayglo was a sensible alternative for the yellow as it could not be missed, although the machines looked better with the yellow. When machines later went away for a major they came back with a doped red white finish (awful in my mind). The only good thing was the 'system' stayed the same with 3 solo's and a BGA Cert with a nice little book that you could present to someone and point out the message that requested that the holder of such a book would be grateful for any help that could be available if he had landed away from a normal airfield. I think mine was signed by Lord Brabazon of Tara !!!!. The discarded harness system went in my Beetle long before seat belts were required. The 'Dayglo' was always a plastic film as no dope at that time could give the same awareness factor of Dayglo.
At Bovingdon we used to collect large pieces of sticky backed dayglo (ah La Val Singleton) discarded in bins, these being for the resident Ansons/Devons/Pembrokes.
I still have the green A&B plus the 'C' certificate No 41611. I got the enamel badges for both of these but the cloth 'Gliding Proficiency' badge to be worn on battledress then woolly pullys didn't happen 'til later.

[BEagle]

What happened to the C Beagle !!!

Back to boarding school, then PPL courtesy of an RAF Scholarship the following Easter before RAFC Cranwell in September!

I did graduate to a single seat glider in Autumn 1967 though - the mighty Slingsby Tutor with it's nigh-on perpendicular glide ratio. My next single seat aeroplane was the Hunter GT6 8 years later....

[longer ron]

'Stavros' was Inge Deen - who was the hard working BGA secretary until 1970 (?)
I wonder how many gliding certificates she stamped :)

edit - unless you meant the other stamp of course :)

[76fan]

Re BEagle & POBJOY:

Like POBJOY's mine also had the signature of Brabazon of Tara.
Over 17500 certificates issued between mine and BEagle's over a period of less than seven years ... and I guess the vast majority of gliding certificates in the 60's would have been issued to Air Cadets. I reckon that is a pretty impressive number per year.



https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/suc55694_53dd7810e5b63d4d6e305b4324601556a3dc240d.jpg

[thegypsy]

Just looking at my little green certificate
I joined Oxford University Gliding Club at RAF Bicester early sixties. Cert No 40445 with A B and C certificates and Silver C height during my three years there .

[George Richardson]

I had three trips in WB935 at Linton ,642GS,under instruction on 22 May 1960 .My 20th birthday!

[POBJOY]

Back to boarding school, then PPL courtesy of an RAF Scholarship the following Easter before RAFC Cranwell in September!

I did graduate to a single seat glider in Autumn 1967 though - the mighty Slingsby Tutor with it's nigh-on perpendicular glide ratio. My next single seat aeroplane was the Hunter GT6 8 years later....

That does sound rather more 'interesting' than scratching around Halesland in a Prefect to get that third gull on the little enamel badge, and just look at the THOUSANDS of Cadets that went through the system, which even if they never continued in aviation was a great start in the ability to make decisions and 'think ahead'.
It was a 'system' that evolved with almost zero paperwork other than signing daily MT and Glider inspections with briefings out on the field (minimal) as how long can you brief for a (3 minute) rocket launch followed by a one shot descending circuit (observing the 45 deg rule). I truly think there is merit in revisiting the whole 'model' of why it worked so well as we now have a World that is unable to make decisions in a timescale that actually gets things done when needed !!!. It was also damm good fun driving those MK1 landrovers around stripped of everything (windscreen flat) with three up front (the middle one changing gear)
And who would have ever thought that they went to Space in a shuttle that landed like a MK3. (although a bit faster)

[chevvron]

That does sound rather more 'interesting' than scratching around Halesland in a Prefect to get that third gull on the little enamel badge,

Never got to Halesland; my 3rd gull was obtained after my CFI said 'take '150 solo and don't come back for at least 15 minutes'.(I did 18 min, climbing a bit higher than I should have but I don't think the crew of the Britannia saw me)
This was at Bovingdon in 1965 which as far as I know was the first ever 'C' certification at that airfield; my schoolteacher was standing watching me too; he had just got engaged to the sister of one of my instructors and had been invited to have a looksee.
My longest flight was from Halton in a Prefect (24 min)

[POBJOY]

The 'Halesland' bit was for A&B's doing what was then called an 'advanced' ** course. This included use of spoilers/airbrakes, spot landings, trying to stay on the ridge long enough for the C, and no question of 'landing out' down at the bottom of the hill. The evening part of the course included under age drinking in Weston !!!.
On my first visit at the hilltop site (we self catered during the day) we had a barge, prefect, and swallow in the shed, and looking back on the situation it was probably what we now would call a 'marginal' operation for low launch Cadets, some of whom had only done an A&B possibly over a year earlier, and certainly at a normal airfield. However as usual we were not aware it was marginal so it worked ok most of the time. Later 'schools' would move down for a weeks 'away' operation which was probably a valuable training exercise after their normal base. **The 'C' bit was an extra to the advanced as I recall the ATC issued an 'advanced cert' as part of the normal system. The swallow was for instructor use and those trying to get their bronze or 5 hour flights. Another example of the Air Cadet organisation at the time providing a facility that was available to anyone with a modicum of ability at a very interesting location. I never saw the barge operated solo during my visits. The Weston night club bit was not part of the certificate !!!.

[longer ron]

Certainly in 1970 at Halton you had to be at least 'C' cat to fly the swallow,P1's/2's got to fly the Prefect - in my case January of course so no chance of soaring LOL :)

[chevvron]

**The 'C' bit was an extra to the advanced as I recall the ATC issued an 'advanced cert' as part of the normal system. .
Thinking back, after my 18 min over Bovingdon, I was sent the Soaring Certificate and the Advanced Gliding Certificate in the same envelope; I then had to apply to the BGA for the enamel 'C' badge.

[POBJOY]

Certainly in 1970 at Halton you had to be at least 'C' cat to fly the swallow,P1's/2's got to fly the Prefect - in my case January of course so no chance of soaring LOL :)

Another bit of 'Mumbo Jumbo' in the Cadet organisation as in some schools it was B cats only despite the fact that the civ clubs used them as basic solo machines.
Even a rarer sight than the Prefect coming around so guarded by the 'CAT's' normally until in my case it arrived at Kenley. Duly DI'd by myself (P2 Staff Cadet) it was placed on the line one quiet Saturday, and as no interest was shown by the IC line I suggested a trip by myself was possible. No chance only B cats was the reply,. but soon countered by producing log book and showing my check out at Swanton the previous week by Ian Ladley with 6 flights made as a thank you for helping up there doing all the usual jobs including flying station staff in the T21 on the wed sports afternoon. 651 was duly pushed back to the fence to get more height and having made over 1000 ft did two loops off the top of launch. This prompted an immediate grounding until the following week when a log book cert arrived from Swanton with the 'aerobatic' box ticked !!!!

[FL575]

My ‘B’ certificate is dated about a year earlier that that of 76fan, and the numbers would indicate that some 2750 were issued in that year! Surely most must have been ATC cadets.

I flew at Exeter Airport with 624 GS, however, the airport did not have the utilisation it has today! Gliding was halted/recommenced by Aldis light from the tower. Most cessations were caused by the, sometimes spirited, movements of the CAACU (Civilian Anti-Aircraft Co-operation Unit) In my early days at the GS they flew Mosquito aircraft, but later re-equipped with Vampires.

One of these Vampires was to come a cropper however, courtesy of the GS.

Towing of the gliders, T21, Prefect, and the Sedburgh ‘Barge’ utilised a WW2 Bedford lorry with canvass doors, which was also used to draw out the twin launch cables. Cadets were encouraged to drive the Bedford. This lorry had a removable steering wheel, which just lifted off the steering column shaft. One of the standard ‘pranks’ was to remove this steering wheel whilst driving around the peritrack furthest from the tower, and for the driver to hand it to a new, unsuspecting, ‘passenger’ and say ‘you steer’. However, on this occasion, the steering wheel would not go back on to the spines on the steering column, and in the resulting confusion and with virtually useless brakes, the Bedford ran smartly in to the side of the Vampire.

With the arrival of the Vampires, all the Mosquitos were de-rigged, and their various components placed up against the hedge on the northern side of the airport, and left to rot.

We did go to Halesland once for a Summer Camp, being accommodated in the huts at RAF Locking. One of my memories of Halesland , apart from the 45 degree rule, is the ‘T of trees’, which was on the upslope of the hills, and roughly pointed to the landing area. I can’t find it now on Google Earth.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1832x1911/gliding_and_record_of_service_covers_06d8990b7b70bbf1efb77a2 07530c6e9902a6cea.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/gliding_and_record_of_service_inside_4f8d9661dcd5062f71873a3 4826d6619db688f9a.jpg

[BEagle]

'Stavros' was Inge Deen [...]

Nope, 'Stavros' was 'Phil the Greek', otherwise known as HRH The Prince Philip RIP.

[POBJOY]

One of the Halesland 'features' was the use of rocks to make messages/ faces.
On one particular course after a couple of rather low final turns (caused by leaving the ridge too late) it was decided to have a 400 ft marker made from rocks as a reminder not to be lower over that particular spot. Unfortunately this was made from a convenient pile of rocks that later transpired to be a feature called Robbies head which referred to the local GS CO (Weston) who had been the instigator of the ridge site. Halesland later featured in an incident report in the printed 'Gliding Lines' when a landrover attempted to drive through the side of the hangar. It appeared that the completely innocent LR was parked outside and upslope of the shed, and had a course Cadet in the pass seat. The I/C the course indicated to the cadet to 'bring the rover' down and to his credit he slid over and set forth on this mission. The Rover impaled itself in the hangar side and rather spoilt the I/C's day.
It appears that the Cadet (not a staff Cadet or even a driver) managed to initiate a start, but had not progressed on to the steering / braking part of his instant self training. !!!!
By the way 575 your Mossies were the stars at the Biggin 'At Home' show in 59, also memorable for a Spitfire (SL574) belly landing on a Bromley cricket pitch the next day after a London BoB fly past.

[Krystal n chips]

For the OP, do you know Al S at all?...very useful and knowledgeable source.

Got the little green book c/o Burtonwood . The Cadet Mk 3 demonstrated its capacity to return to earth, rapidly, with no help from me on the second solo, hence my arrival on the ramp, rather than launch area, surrounded by 45 gall drums... and other sundry items.

" The Civil, Naval and Military Authorities, including the Police, are respectfully requested to aid and assist the holder of this certificate'....in 6 languages!"

Ah yes, the police ! First encounter, about 07.30 ish on a Sunday morning near Bury St Edmunds having just left Wattisham ...had to collect a trailer for a B4 and thence to Bicester...the stop would have made "The Sweeney " envious. However, all I can say, is, not everybody suits wearing a uniform...the reason he stopped me was the trailer number plate didn't match my car...this was hardly unknown in those days, so I smiled...politely.

Next encounter...Lancs finest on the side of the M6 !...reason ? towing a K18 on an open trailer and, apparently, they'd never seen one out of a box before in bits..felt like saying, try a gliding club, not the hard shoulder.

Next encounter...Dumfries and Galloway at Moffatt when I missed a turn on the old A74 and took what I thought would be the next suitable exit...alas, it was a single track road leading to a reservoir...a farmer called the police , quite reasonably, as to why a glider trailer was on this track. They were highly amused

Next, the Dutch police whom came to my asssitance due to a "breakdown in international relations " at the then Aachen border crossing involving myself, the US Army Military police and one particular German border guard, even his mate was shaking his head in disbelief at his actions, although it's possible I may have contributed by suggesting to the Yank if he continued to push me in the chest, he could be viewing the world from a horizonal rather than vertical perspective...and one or two other "observations "....however, this trip did complete my Silver C

Silver height out of Colerne...got the book back with a very terse letter from Anne Welch, bless her, informing me in no uncertain terms, "we are flying gliders, NOT BAC 1-11's !! "...as I had the Baro calibrated at Filton