Ryanair-11

[Link Kilo]

"Ryanair is close to placing an order for dozens of additional Boeing 737 MAX jets in a commercial boost to the U.S. planemaker after regulators lifted a 20-month safety grounding, industry sources said."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max-ryanair-idUSKBN28C223

[racedo]

Good spot.

Ultimately the key point is "as part of a compensation deal for delays caused by the grounding.". This is pretty much in line with what I suggested when rumours first broke of a potential deal.

Financed by EXIM so assumming Ryanair pay $40 M each, sales and lease back deal @ low rates for $80 M each and you have just generated a huge pot of cash.

[davidjohnson6]

In December 2020 and also early January 2021, Ryanair are flying between Stansted and Edinburgh. During Dec 2020, it's a FR flight code and operated by Ryanair Ireland - i.e. default setup for Ryanair. From 01-Jan-2021, there's an RK flight code (i.e. Ryanair UK) but the Ryanair website lists the flight as being *operated by Ryanair* - i.e. Ryanair Ireland doing the flying rather than Ryanair UK
For clarity, I'll refer to the Irish airline within the Ryanair group of companies as Ryanair Ireland
I get that Brexit means things change - and I really don't want a whole Brexit/EU argument going on here, but how can you have a UK-registered airline flight code, operated by an EU-registered airline on a domestic flight within the UK ? Yes, I know Ryanair UK is probably 100% owned by Ryanair Ireland so it's a paperwork/legalities exercise rather than any money being involved
Wizzair Hungary (W6) have set up a UK airline called Wizz UK with a separate code (W9) with G- aircraft that are registered to Wizz UK. Wizz don't fly UK domestic so have fewer constraints in their overall operation

Surely one would expect flights between Edinburgh and Stansted after 01-Jan-2021 to not only have an RK flight code but also be *operated by Ryanair UK* instead of Ryanair Ireland ?

[FRatSTN]

Ryanair UK only has one aircraft, G-RUKA.

Those flights with the RK code are indeed Ryanair UK flights (as needed to continue after 1st Jan), but 'operated by Ryanair' (ie the aircraft is leased in from Ryanair DAC/Ireland).

Whether the Ryanair UK fleet will grow in time I'm not sure, but so long as they're a UK carrier (based in STN) with it's own AOC, there's no reason to my knowledge why it couldn't operate using any aircraft leased in from any one of the other Ryanair subsidiaries.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

davidjohnson6

Aer Lingus' BHD-UK operation is not going over to a British AOC so far as I know. I believe an exemption has been granted.

[SWBKCB]

Whether the Ryanair UK fleet will grow in time I'm not sure, but so long as they're a UK carrier (based in STN) with it's own AOC, there's no reason to my knowledge why it couldn't operate using any aircraft leased in from any one of the other Ryanair subsidiaries.

With CAA approval, and if the old system still applies would need to take account of any possible objections from other UK airlines.

[Bueno Hombre]

Ryanair never, even when times were good, ever paid any dividend to its share holders so why is the share price rising ? Better times revenues will rightly accrue to the account of Michael, not to dumb shareholders.

[southside bobby]

Not so sure the "never & "ever" are correct however.

[cavokblues]

I've just noticed that whilst the Maltese registered aircraft have the Maltese flag next to the registration and the Polish aircraft the Polish flag, and obviously the Irish aircraft the Irish flag, the one British registered aircraft is missing the Union Flag. Just an oversight or intentional?

(Not wanting to start any political arguments but just an observation which I found amusing!)

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Guess but its not mandatory in UK and might be elsewhere?

Jet 2, BA etc dont carry the flag so not an intentional omission from FR.

[Angry Rebel]

Ryanair never, even when times were good, ever paid any dividend to its share holders so why is the share price rising ? Better times revenues will rightly accrue to the account of Michael, not to dumb shareholders.

The first part is wrong and the second part makes no sense.

[Alsacienne]

Well being Ryanair, I doubt they'd spend money 'decorating' an aircraft frame if they didn't actually need to or have a marketing plan in mind!

[Jonnyknoxville]

Ryanair have paid billions in dividends over the last 7 or 8 years

[TOM100]

and lots of share buybacks I believe....

[Link Kilo]

"WASHINGTON, Dec. 3, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] and Ryanair announced today that Europe's largest airline is placing a firm order for 75 additional 737 MAX airplanes, increasing its order book to 210 jets. Ryanair again selected the 737 8-200, a higher-capacity version of the 737-8, citing the airplane's additional seats and improved fuel efficiency and environmental performance."

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2020-12-03-Ryanair-Orders-75-More-Boeing-737-MAX-Jets?sf240731629=1

[southside bobby]

Timeline for delivery of "the gamechanger" also condensed with all a/c to be delivered by 2024.

[inOban]

I notice that both the EZY and FR flights from EDI to STN leave at the same time. I wonder what the load factors will be.

[racedo]

Michael O'Leary is not Ryanair nor has he ever claimed to be. True he has a generous incentive scheme allied to performance but bearing in mind he is already very wealthy and is quite happy to pay millions in tax in that Tax Haven (Not) Ireland then I see not what the reason is. Bearing in mind he bet the farm in 2001 when all were laughing at a stupid decision I guess the laughter is not there now.

For reference Ryanair has spent just under €7 billion in special dividends and buy backs since 2008 but hey begrudgery works if you want it to.

As for the dumb shareholders they could have put money in safe banks.....oh wait.

[CCFAIRPORT]

Ryanair is launching a new base at Venice-Treviso Airport ! Opening 30 March 2021 with 2 based aircraft and 45 routes

New routes :

Paphos
Billund
Alicante
Palma
Tenerife
Chania
Kos
rhodes
Thessaloniki
Tel Aviv
Alghero
Pescara
Trapani
riga
Fez
Warsaw-WMI
Poznan
Kyiv

Some routes were already in the previous network they just come back

[Seljuk22]

Ryanair's VIE base (currently 3 based a/c) will be closed eff. January. Lauda Europe and Buzz will take over.

Beauvais base was opened on 3rd December.

[inOban]

excuse my ignorance but I thought that the current base at Marco Polo was a temporary one while Treviso was being resurfaced. ie they are reopening it, not a new base.

[southside bobby]

Up to 18 Lauda Europe 9H- A320`s at STN in temporary store.

[Noxegon]

inOban

Ryanair always uses the words "new route" and "new base" regardless as to whether they've previously operated something.

[EZYPZY]

inOban

FR have had a large presence at Treviso (VCE temporarily while runway works are carried out) for years but despite this it was never a ‘base’ for them. This announcement will see aircraft and crew permanently based there, rather than flying in from other bases around the network.

[MANFAN]

Spanish authorities announced on 10th December that the LAMP COVID-19 test is now being accepted for entry into mainland Spain. This is a rapid test where results are given within 90mins and is already offered by Collinson who are providing tests at various UK airports.
Ryanair's travel area on their website only states PCR or TMA tests. As usual., trying to speak with someone at Ryanair is proving difficult, disconnection on the phone due to the lines being too busy and no response from Twitter messages.

I have booked a PCR test a few weeks ago for my flight with them to Malaga on 21st December. Now I have also pre-booked a LAMP test at MAN airport on the day of travel, but my concern would now be because their website is not up-to-date, would boarding be denied even though this type of test (LAMP) has official been announced as acceptable by the Spanish authorities?

[Mr A Tis]

CAA response to Ryanair statement ( Re Ryanair UK)

21 December, 2020

Commenting on Ryanair's recent press release, Paul Smith at the UK Civil Aviation Authority, said: “It is incorrect for the airline to state that the UK Civil Aviation Authority has changed its wet-leasing policy at short notice. It has been our long-standing position that a UK airline with a significant presence in the UK, such as Ryanair UK does, should not rely heavily on using wet-leased, foreign-registered aircraft to undertake their operations. Doing so undermines the competitiveness of the UK aviation industry and the effectiveness of the regulatory regime. This is a view shared by regulators around the world and has nothing to do with our preparations for the end of the transition period, which we have planned for extensively.

"The decision to cancel these flights was taken by Ryanair alone. We will continue to engage with the airline on these matter as we seek to act in the best interest of consumers.”

Notes to editors:

Ryanair has chosen to create a UK subsidiary to benefit from UK air traffic rights, including flying between domestic destinations in the UK.
Ryanair UK currently has only one aircraft listed on the UK's register. Ryanair has a fleet of over 470 aircraft.

[Dannyboy39]

This isn’t adding up for me, although they haven’t said what the rule changes are. I presume RYR U.K. plan to wet lease several EI-reg RYR DAC aircraft (or from other airlines in the group) to the U.K. subsidiary to get around the break from EASA protocols in 10 days time.

Whilst it’s true that no U.K. airline wet leases a substantial portion of their aircraft from a third party, what is the difference between having say 2 aircraft v 20 aircraft? Each are being managed and maintained by the same regulations. Even the CAA say it’s all about competitiveness rather than safety or regulations.

It is one of my big bug bears in aviation - that the rules totally change on the same aircraft as soon as the letters at the back end change.

[LTNman]

Ryanair’s UK arm had agreed to Brexit contingency arrangements with the CAA two years ago so they can’t claim they didn’t know there could be issues if they didn’t comply in the spirit of those arrangements when they only have one aircraft registered in the U.K.

[biddedout]

Yes, it is about the spirit of the arrangements. It has been clear that post end of transition, in order to operate under any Air Service Agreements entered into by the UK, an airline will to have a UK entity and has to have a UK AOC. To obtain a UK AOC, the aircraft has to be on the UK register. Although there has been much confusion over Brexity arrangements generally, the CAA has been consulting with airlines and it has been clear for a while that the UK - EU Air Service agreement would probably only cover third and fourth freedoms. This would mean Ryanair would need a UK business (which it has with one aircraft on the G reg). Other airlines have worked this out so no doubt Ryanair are just playing and generally stirring for time whilst there isn't much flying going on. It has been obvious all along that wet leasing in and just continuing as before wasn't part of the CAA's plan as this would just be taking the p*** of the point of having a regulator.

[Dannyboy39]

Yes, it is about the spirit of the arrangements.
So not set in legislation then?

[tictack67]

How is the Stobbart EI from BHD to GB affected? They use EI reg aircraft

[SWBKCB]

Looking to set up Stobart UK

[D9009]

biddedout

but surely the CAA have also had plenty of time to release this news item

[Albert Hall]

CAA rules have long prescribed that the number of wet-leased aircraft in an AOC holder's fleet cannot exceed 50% of your core aircraft fleet. If you have one aircraft on the UK register and try to secure permission to wet-lease 15 others - even on a part-time basis - then you can expect to fall foul of this provision, which has been in place for longer than I can remember with the objective of making sure that UK AOCs cannot effectively become flags of convenience. I would be very surprised if the CAA had not outlined that to Ryanair. Unlike Wizz (for example) which has a meaningful and growing number of G- aircraft on its UK AOC, Ryanair look to have gained the approvals and promptly done very little with them.

[LTNman]

Wizz U.K. had no problems understanding CAA requirements but Ryanair like to sail near the wind. Now they have been caught out but they claim it is all the fault of the CAA, which has made a robust response.

[biddedout]

AH - Exactly!
It may not be in law yet but from 01 Jan there will either be no agreement (nothing flies) an agreement or an emergency temporary agreement. The CAA make it clear in their podcasts (and no doubt in conversations with airlines) that the Air Service Agreement between the UK and EU will only be third and fourth freedoms ("97%Written up, just awaiting political sign off"). Airlines wishing to operate under this agreement will need to have a UK AOC. I am not a Brexit fan but this is the point of taking back control, leaving EASA and bolstering our own regulator. It needs something to regulate and the rest of the UK airlines would not be happy if there wasn't a level playing field. Apart form the cost, Ryanair are probably just miffed because they will no longer be able to pool their airframes across Europe / UK. The UK airframes on the G-Reg will have to be ring fenced for UK based ops only. They set up Ryanair UK so they must have been aware of what was coming and would have had a lot of conversations with the CAA as they did this.

[LTNman]

Worth reading this from 2016 when they threatened to cut investment in the U.K in retaliation for the U.K voting to leave the EU. Well that never happened did it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-will-shift-investment-away-from-uk-after-brexit-vote-1.2702603

[DomyDom]

Perhaps they didn't expect that the UK would still be following all EU rules, regulations and still be paying into it's budget by the end of 2020. The only difference now being that the UK has no vote or veto over those EU rules or regs.

[SWBKCB]

This list always includes paying into the budget and always forgets the receiving payments bit. Funny that. Anyway, back on topic.

[True Blue]

If the establishment hadn't set about converting a very good commercial/business arrangement into a political project, we wouldn't be where we are now I believe. The difficulty now being experience shows how much of our authority had been signed away, mostly without our knowledge or agreement. Did nobody at the stop ever stop to ask this question "what happens if a population changes its mind?" as they signed agreement after agreement.

[ETOPS]

Along with the "G" reg comes CAA oversight and inspection................not something MOL will be keen on.

[virginblue]

However, Ryanair is apparently in the process of moving two Polish and two Maltese aircraft two Ryanair UK. Not sure it that will be sufficient to get below the 50 per cent threshold.

[Big_D]

Reading the Brexiteer grievances here is worth the gold :D

[inOban]

Surely the CAA should require the number of UK - registered a/c to at least equal the number of a/c which are normally on the ground overnight in the UK in low season.

[Fly757X]

virginblue

Out of curiosity is there an available source for this?

[virginblue]

It was posted on a German aviation forum by someone who quoted ch-aviation (the article he linked to is paywalled):

https://www.vielfliegertreff.de/sonstige-europaeische-airlines/143012-ryanair-hat-brexit-aerger-12-routen-eingestellt.html#post3323733

[LTNman]

Handy link if I could speak German.

[davidjohnson6]

Try having a look at the following (mentioned in the post from virginblue)
https://aviation.direct/ryanair-uk-u...eiche-strecken (https://aviation.direct/ryanair-uk-uebernimmt-ab-jaenner-2021-zahlreiche-strecken)

You can set Chrome to automatically translate other languages for you - or use Google Translate. The link from virginblue gives the aircraft registration details

[kildress]

LTNman
"Worth reading this from 2016 when they threatened to cut investment in the U.K in retaliation for the U.K voting to leave the EU. Well that never happened did it."
It is worth reading. Did you read it?
I read nothing of any threat or in retaliation.
I did read read about possible future plans to pivot growth toward Europe and perhaps set up a UK Operating Licence.
Are you tilting at windmills, DQ?

[davidjohnson6]

There appear to be a large number of routes which operate during Jan-Mar 2021, but which cease after 27 March. No, these are not ski or winter seasonal routes. The removal of flights seems to be across the network, and not specific to a single country or few airports

Is there a computer failure or some sort of major reworking of schedules going on ? If not, there appears to be a cull of about 15% of all routes across the network effective 27 March 2021

[ericsson16]

https://www.ft.com/content/79a64a0a-5af9-4c52-95bf-4b731a3d71b6

[rotorwills]

davidjohnson6

Integration of Max ?

[racedo]

davidjohnson6

I think no airline can tell you with any degree of certainty what routes they will operate in Summer 2021. IF Covid becomes a part of history through burning itself out and vaccine then there will be lots of routes. However the big Caveat is will people be willing to travel. IMHO the answer is not yet.

Flying somewhere is about confidence as post 9/11 showed in Europe, then it was against a visible threat. now it is an invisible one.

People are influenced by others. So if Kevin and Sharon do a couple of weekend breaks and keep telling friends the message from them and others is flying is OK. Getting the same message from Del and Tracey etc etc then confidence will start to rise as people think "If they can then we can". Knowing someone who has done it an arrived back safe and well is key.

Confidence is fickle, as post 9/11 the AA crash on Long Island almost brought US Aviation into an immediate shutdown.

I do feel many marginal routes where airline only really makes money for 4 months a year but it covers most costs rest of year are under threat in 2021. Until population are back treating travel as before then airlines will chop and change routes all the time.

It is likely that during 2021 that routes will appear and disappear all the time but airlines will be in the driving seat, airports can not afford to be choosy as the local economies they serve will need as many travellers in to sustain jobs as possible.

[harriewillem]

COVID is much worse as 9/11 for the aviation industry, Yes it is about confidence, but we are now lets say 10 months inn and the rules are changing per country overnight and mostly are getting worse and worse... and with a vaccine that will see enough people vaccinated in about 6-12 months I am afraid we can bin 2021 too... Even if we set all lights on green tomorrow and covid is gone by a miracle.. it will take 3-6 months to get recovery.. so that is between 9 and 18 months from now... sorry..

Been flying for work weekly also this year majority on RYR and during the year the chopping changing and cancelling only got worse and worse, I was surprised that they kept going so long without drastic route cuts as flights have been empty for RYR LF.

[racedo]

H1 2021 is a write off, H2 is a who knows but likely will be ok, not good, not bad but ok. The issue will be for another 5 years is people will be Virus sceptics, the mere hint of one will change airlines markets up and down.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Fear of catching the C-19 virus itself is not the only thing holding back air travel. Most people cannot take the risk of being ordered to self-isolate at short-notice upon their return home (or at intended destination). People are wary following the debacle of the on / off 'travel corridors' and are in no hurry to be caught out by these again. Many lost money on non-refundable items like car hire and accommodation in 2020; they don't want to lose more. Others are put off by the requirement for a covid test taken within 72 hours of departure, often at greater expense than the underlying air fare. For a family that cost can mount up, and the test is only good for one trip. Some jurisdictions aren't allowing overseas nationals in at all yet, and we can't predict when that will change. Other countries have more overbearing restrictions than others: anyone fancy being muzzled-up 24/7 whenever outdoors in a tropical climate? And then there is the admin factor. Few relish another round of interminable phonecalls listening to muzak, unanswered emails and long waits for travel vouchers when flight arrangements have been cancelled yet again. Or - in the case of some Ryanair routes - customers lost their fares as the airline went ahead with flights which the passenger as an individual was banned from using on the grounds of nationality / residency.

My travel for the first half of 2021 will be limited to very late bookings with high confidence of going ahead to destinations which I know will be welcoming, open and not oppressively restricted. And I'll need to know that the destination I'm planning to visit isn't completely shut down too - we've got to be able to do the things we want to do and meet the people we want to meet when away. Avoiding the virus itself is only the start of it.

Set against this there are some positives. People holding travel vouchers will want to deploy them - especially if expiry date becomes an issue - though I think most of Ryanair's revert to a cash refund upon reaching their anniversary anyway. Though voucher redemptions don't represent new income for the airline. Folks who have worked throughout the crisis - in many cases (key workers) doing all the overtime they can bear - have the funds and inclination to treat themselves to a decent break away somewhere. Many of those furloughed have had money coming in and much reduced opportunity to spend. Pensions have been coming in as normal too. So there is pent-up demand to be satisfied once travel reliably opens up again.

When mass-market travel does come back, I would expect Ryanair to be a big winner. Their services can be booked easily at short notice to destinations which have been reliably opened up to visitors. They go to the right places for shorter, high confidence breaks away. And if travel is disrupted again, the funds committed are generally much lower than those for alternative long-haul or high-end trips. Ryanair also has the flexibility to blitz short-haul destinations which do reliably open up for bookings. Familiar 'old favourite' destinations will be in high demand once re-opened.

[AirportPlanner1]

On the leisure side I think long haul will be the big winner when things become easier. People haven’t been anywhere, like you say lots will have disposable income mounting and I think people will want a big ‘adventure’ as a reward for what they’ve been through. I suspect the ME3 along with the Chinese and others will be dumping low fares like we’ve never seen before.

[DomyDom]

Ryanair blocks UK investors from buying shares in Brexit move - CityAM

https://flip.it/4hoeOK

[brian_dromey]

AirportPlanner1

Perhaps in 2022, but I think short-haul is where it will be at for S21. Flexibility and ability to make changes at short notice are going to be key to confidence.
To various extent some form of certainty that you will:
1) able to go,
2) not have to quarantine on arrival,
3) get home quickly if things change
4) work remotely if things really go wrong,
5) not have to restrict movements/self-isolate on return
Will play to each individuals confidence. Many long haul destinations do not meet even one of those criteria. Time zones, for example could mean you would be working in the middle of the night in a £500+ a night over water Villa indefinitely. The EU traffic lights and physical proximity make short haul a better bet for a lot of people. I think bookings will trend close to departure, for all of the above. That said, I do agree that some will want to splash out, there are plenty of places around the Mediterranean and Adriatic with the ability to charge like a wounded bull!

[SWBKCB]

Just seen a RYR sales advert on TV - strap line is "Jab & Go!"....

[HKGBOY]

Can't see any long haul getting underway soon.
It's not a question of customer confidence- but Government policies.
Currently flights (as are pax) from the UK are banned to India, Singapore, Philippines, & Hong Kong. Even HKG residents can no longer fly to HKG if they have been in the UK within 14 days. Even then, they need a PCR test before & on arrival - if negative result you are compulsory quarantined in an appointed hotel- at your expense for THREE weeks now.
Thailand is not expected to start any vaccination until May/June.
( As an aside all the M &S chilled food shelves in HKG are empty due to the complete lack of flights between the two countries)
So, only shorthaul is where any up swing will be. Right on Ryanair territory. They are able to act swiftly to demand & are perceived not to be as "clunky" as the Orange rivals in terms of flexibility on scheduling.
I'm not a fan of the outfit, but they always seem to land on their feet with deep pockets to ride out problems. I'm not a fan of their Jab and go adverts either. It is simply something you cannot do. Who are they trying to appeal to at the moment? The over 80s in care homes? I think it's a stupid and baffling ad.

[Asturias56]

I think you are right - RYanair are almost always ahead of the game - what they're targetting is everyone who has had the vaccine - they'll feel happy to fly - and that's currently 500,000 people a week being added to the lcustomer base

Sure a lot of them are old and in homes but in a month there'll be lot of care workers and over 70's outside homes - several million - desperate for a winter break.........

[oldart]

I would imagine that NHS staff and carers won't be able to get time off for winter holidays just yet. The virus spike at the moment seems to be overtaking the summer one, more pressure on NHS hospitals, less people for holidays.

[LTNman]

Passengers would still need to meet both U.K. and European nations travel requirements vaccine or no vaccine in the coming months.

[Wallsendmag]

The UK is an European nation,the EU is something very different.

[Asturias56]

old-art

Ryanair are selling holidays for the post vaccination period - looks like by Easter things my be under control

[ICEHOUSES]

Who the hell would book a holiday with this mob after this years performance regarding refunds..

[Jamesair1]

Plenty of willing punters who perceive they may be getting a fantastic bargain for their money

[HKGBOY]

Ryanair are selling holidays for the post vaccination period - looks like by Easter things my be under control

A bit wildly over optimistic.
The UK is stretching the gap between Dose 1 & Dose 2 to 12 weeks. So, even if you are in the over 65 group- expect a jab Feb/March - second dose May/June - give it another 3 weeks for full effacy.
We are looking at August / September at the very earliest before any significant impact on leisure travel.
That's without any issues with production or distribution.
The Ryanair" jab & go" adverts completely absurd IMHO. You need two jabs- in the UK a gap of 12 weeks- then wait for effect- so you can't just jab and go can you(?)

[SWBKCB]

And wherever you're going has to accept that you've had the jab, through a process that hasn't been created yet.

And assuming the vaccinations are 100% effective, and stop you carrying/transmitting the virus.

All seems pretty straightforward.

[HKGBOY]

The briefing on TV today said 12 weeks between doses for Astra.
The Moderna isn't available in the uk until "early spring" according to NHS and then only enough for 3.5M
The Pfizer is also stock limited in smallish batches.

[inOban]

The reason for the longer gap between doses is because the evidence shows that the first dose protects against severe illness and so the likelihood of hospital admission. Whether this will satisfy destination countries, who knows.

As for the vaccination of countries like Thailand, most of the world will use the Oxford vaccine because it is a fraction of the cost and easy to distribute.

[GA F15]

Aviation was amongst the first industries to be affected by this virus, with closing of international borders. Unfortunately I feel it will also be the last to recover.
Even if we in the U.K. vaccinate quickly and successfully, I can’t see other countries opening up to us until their respective populations have achieved equal inoculation.
U.K. pubs will open, and domestic travel will probably boom this summer, but I just can’t see Spain etc being ready for a summer of (vaccinated) Brits!

[harriewillem]

Who the hell would book a holiday with this mob after this years performance regarding refunds..

For me they have been good, I use them regular and got the vouchers and spended them, asked for a refund on the familiy holiday (as that was a bigger amount) and got that whitin 3wks so for me not bad, I think any "bad" RYR do is always under a loop... Dont use Ryanair if you are not used to flying and your 60 plus.. but they are fantastic from a buisness point of view and you get what you pay for, a seat, on time, safe and the rest you pay for but that is nowadays with most.. Aer Lingus, Transavia... many Legacy have scrapped the free drink and sambo (that you paid for yourself).. so what is the real difference... a few avios or flying blue points... but they lost the value 5-10 yrs ago..

[southside bobby]

Above post...

Quote..."Dont use Ryanair if you are not used to flying and your 60 plus"

Please explain!

[davidjohnson6]

Ryanair is not the most forgiving of airlines - there are more traps a passenger can fall into, and mistakes by passengers tend to be punished more severely. I've flown with Ryanair over 250 times for leisure, but know that when dealing with the FR website, I need to concentrate fully on what I'm doing and that I need to be hawk-like against being taken advantage of. I know that I will have to argue hard (and possibly revert to use of law) on anything which is a grey area, where other large airlines might be more prepared to accept they were at fault. When things go wrong with Ryanair, resolving them is always painful. Ryanair are the only airline where I've had to raise multiple chargebacks via my credit card on different occasions or make recourse to courts for claims

When I took my dad (in his 70s) on a flight with them I found myself regretting not paying more and giving him the comfort of a legacy carrier

Yes, the fares are cheap, flights delays are few and I still use Ryanair, but I know I'm dealing with a shark and to expect sharp practice from them

[southside bobby]

Still not quite getting the allusions to RYR firstly with "the 60`s & now over the 70`s" !!

[SWBKCB]

= young people think we're stupid.:ok:

[biddedout]

Ryanair appear to be operating a few flights out of the UK this morning. Assuming they are starting here, does anyone know what rules, AOC's approvals they are operating under? All EI aircraft and no sign of the Ryanair UK G-Reg machine.

[Noxegon]

As long as one end of the flight is in the European Union they're good. They need the G- aircraft for UK domestic.

[biddedout]

So Covid restrictions aside, is an airline with 60-70 aircraft based in the UK simply going to be allowed to continue on an Irish AOC under EASA when other operators have gone to the trouble of Creating UK subsidiaries to continue their UK based operations. If this is the case then what was the point of leaving EASA and what is the point of rebuilding the CAA?

[SWBKCB]

As an EU airline, they are allowed to operate betweeen the EU and the UK. What they can't do is operate withing the UK or from the UK to non-EU countries.

[LTNman]

Plenty of willing punters who perceive they may be getting a fantastic bargain for their money

I doubt many will get to travel without some sort of restrictions in the next few months. Then it will be a case of rebooking and paying the large difference in price.

[biddedout]

SWBKCB
I have had another look at the agreement and yes, it does look like that. It looks like business as usual in many ways so nothing to stop other EU carriers opening bases here, pushing existing struggling UK carriers closer to the brink and generally undermining the UK resident pilot market. There will not be much left for the CAA to regulate soon other than UK domestic.

[OzzyOzBorn]

It looks like business as usual in many ways so nothing to stop other EU carriers opening bases here, pushing existing struggling UK carriers closer to the brink and generally undermining the UK resident pilot market.

This isn't really the issue you might suppose. Very few carriers of size are purely UK-owned these days. British Airways is a division of multinational IAG. TUI is a pan-European company ultimately owned in Germany. Ryanair UK, EasyJet (UK), Wizz Air UK are all divisions of pan-European companies. Virgin, Jet2 and Loganair are (AFAIK) predominantly UK-owned. Aurigny and Blue Islands are Channel Isles. Eastern, Titan, Jota, 2Excel and Skybus I presume to be UK-owned too. But in terms of fleet numbers and crew, all of those added together don't come close to the size of those large multinational companies. The principal UK freight carriers are mainly multinational operations as well. Most of those familiar 'struggling UK carriers' are in reality 'struggling multinational carriers' already.

[racedo]

biddedout

Right :rolleyes:

Like Ryanair is going to get rid of its Pilots that are British just because they are British.

[southside bobby]

RK/RUK prefix & "Blue Max" c/sign evidenced pm operating STN-OSL with an Irish registered a/c.

[LGS6753]

An interesting choice of call-sign.

[Liffy 1M]

The movie "The Blue Max" was made in Ireland so that might be part of the puzzle.

[southside bobby]

G-RUKA flying the "BlueMax" STN/OSL today.

[SealinkBF]

Who the hell would book a holiday with this mob after this years performance regarding refunds..

Money talks. I know people who vowed never to fly FR again, then did because they were by far the cheapest.

[southside bobby]

As with most products many people will "buy" the price & not the product.

[22/04]

It isn't only the price. As a large chap I but an extra leg room seat and flight them because they often go where I want to go - Carcasonne for example.

[LGS6753]

Another few toys out of the pram:

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/294966/ryanair-scraps-uk-routes-in-tiff-with-regulator/

[SerriaFireFly]

Interestingly even in COVID, with Brexit looming earlier last year there was talk of opening a base in Gatwick. HORD seemed to indicate he could put 16 aircraft, and the latest on the grapevine is it could be announced later in January. Not sure when flights would start, but with RYR losing aircraft next year it would be interesting to see if they do open it to get ready for a recovery while deals are getting cheaper at airports.

[BACsuperVC10]

davidjohnson6

I have had an issue with them recently where I was booked to fly to Faro on 21 Dec. On 20 Dec Portugal barred UK nationals from entry along with the majority of other European countries and others around the world. I therefore did not travel. I emailed Ryanair twice about this as their online chat wasn't responding, had no reply. I also tried to call but gave up, imagining they would be pretty inundated with other passengers asking similar question about their tickets they were unable to use.

I got to speak to their call centre a couple of days ago, and was basically told , the flight left and there was nothing they could do. They didn't want to know, I kind of expected , but its awful to feel you are being fleeced . My hire car at Faro and Parking at Liverpool Airport was all resolved very quickly on the plus side.

[PAXboy]

Ryanair expects 95% fall in passenger numbers until April.
Reported in The Guardian today.

[southside bobby]

CEO stating today initial roll out of the `8200 will be into the UK market.

[kildress]

If that is the case, then each new UK frame will be a Blue Max.
Now it all makes sense!
Ok, Blue & White...

[Sober Lark]

DUB all airlines only 384 departures in the next 7 days! Anyone flying into DUB from UK or SA needs a negative Covid test taken within 72 hours of arrival. Arrive without a test and you can get a €2,500 fine or 6 months in prison. Soon other countries. Who is going to book? I've had 12 recent cancellations and await refunds / vouchers. Will I book for Spring / Summer? No way and perhaps others think that way.
Look at UK airports MAN next 7 days only 320 departures, STN 303 departures, GLA 119 deps, EDI 156 and of all those flights how many pax?
I don't think you'll see any FR flights from UK soon. Its how they will weather the storm.

[toledoashley]

kildress

Even if they are based in the UK, it doesn’t mean they are going to be added to the RUK AOC.

[Buster the Bear]

8200 := If the price is right, folk will fly on it and within 12 months, assuming no accidents or major incidents, the public will have lost the connection with the MAX.

[OzzyOzBorn]

I look forward to flying on the -8200. But I need to be allowed to fly somewhere first! :-)

[southside bobby]

MoL on R4 this morning saying mass cancellations of flights to/from the UK wef 21.1.21 underway resulting in probably just "10-20" flights per day operated in total from that date.

Blames Governmental Pandemic policy or the lack of it for the temporary measures...

[davidjohnson6]

Ryanair has cut a large number of routes across its network - down maybe 20% (or more) compared to 2019, and the remaining routes generally will see a much lower frequency in S21
This of course means the number of aircraft in use will be down significantly

Is Ryanair planning on a sizeable reduction in fleet size over the next 2 years, or are they just grounding aircraft in the expectation of a return to service in 2022 or 2023 ?

[SWBKCB]

Or maybe the summer schedule isn't fianlised yet, and they are keeping some flexibility so they can respond quickly to changing circumstances?

[FRatSTN]

The schedule isn't finalised yet so speculating on route closures/frequency cuts at this stage is near pointless. Not sure when it will be but I would imagine fairly soon.

[HH6702]

Ryanair is expecting others to fail or certain ones so it can react and move aircraft etc

[davidjohnson6]

Article yesterday on anna.aero about Ryanair. The tone of the article is rather upbeat, indicating flying at something close to S19 levels across Europe. When I look at the FR website, and see all the routes that are no longer offered, and the frequency reductions, I see a very different story

Anyone else have an opinion on the article ?

[FRatSTN]

anna.aero get their info from OAG schedule data, which by no means is a perfect source at the best of times. What Ryanair is currently selling tickets for is an even less accurate reflection of what they'll actually operate. As has been said previously, the schedules are not yet finalised. It's arguably later than usual, but these of course are not usual times.

[harriewillem]

All airlines are releasing schedules very early, some already for summer 2022, they all want to get as much cash in the bank to ride this storm.

Off course they will not fly all, as much is tentative for now... but I would trust a RYR schedule more as for example Logan who are opening routes like mad man.

But all airlines are now just publishing to generate cash in banks and later on they will cancel and refund... if they still have cash :)

[Tim27]

davidjohnson6

Ryanair will lead the aviation recovery in Europe. Their flexibility, innovation and drive are unmatched. Their view is that in adversity there is opportunity....

[southside bobby]

A Malta Air `8200 currently in assembly at Renton will be sporting the new Malta Air livery.

Three Buzz liveried `8200`s currently await certification/delivery.

[daz211]

Has anyone got any idea when November schedule will be available, currently only showing prices until the end of October 2021, thanks in advance.

[SealinkBF]

Ryanair app is showing Inverness as a departure point with destinations Alicante, Murcia and Kaunas.

Mistake or planning to get as many seats on planes once travel starts again?

EDIT: Looks like an error as it's gone again!

[racedo]

Lots of planning going on as would be expected, maybe for 2022.

[jetstream7]

The website and the app don't seem to be lining up very well right now...

Flights from Cardiff to Barcelona on the app, but not on the website.
Flights from Bristol to Cologne on the app, but not on the website
Neither actually bookable.

Cologne to Kyiv on the website, but not on the app, and not bookable.

Hopefully all sorted out soon.

[LGS6753]

Extracts from the Q3 report:
"In Dec., shortly after the FAAs ungrounding of the Boeing MAX aircraft in the U.S., Ryanair ordered a further 75x B737-8200 aircraft from Boeing increasing its firm order to 210 units. Following EASAs recent certification of the MAX-8 to return to flying in Europe, we are hopeful that the [197-seat] B737-8200 will be certified in the coming weeks. This will enable the Group to take delivery of up to 24 new aircraft before peak S.21. This order will deliver over a 4 year period between Spring 2021 and Dec. 2024"
"Recently, Ryanair concluded a 4-year extension of its low-cost growth deal in Stansted to 2028, extending the Groups low cost leadership in the key London market. The Group has also secured easyjet’s 7 based aircraft slot portfolio in Stansted."

[simoncorbett]

According to bbc the Ryanair ‘jab & go ‘ adverts have been removed by complaints board

[AirportPlanner1]

Telegraph have reported that all UK to non-EU and domestic outside of Stansted is to cease. I guess putting aircraft on the UK register for the odd few flights here and there doesn’t make sense. Derry would be hit hardest it would seem. Another great Brexit Dividend I suppose

[davidjohnson6]

Seems like this will have modest non-domestic impact, namely just Manchester to Agadir, Marrakesh and Kyiv, as well as potential new routes to Morocco and Ukraine

[Alsacienne]

.......... not forgetting Norway.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

AirportPlanner1

The sensible plan would have been to appreciate the short term costs and hurdles of continuing to do business from the UK which they have manifestly ignored until now. easyJet had this sorted out literally years ago. UK based aircraft remained G- whereas a new EU based AOC was set up in Austria. Ryanair UK could have had the bulk of the UK based fleet allocated in the same way, it would have some impact on the ability to base aircraft all around Europe but the market has changed and the operator should have recognised this and adapted. If Aer Lingus can set up a whole new AOC for a handful of ex MAN flights, Ryanair could easily have managed this for the whole UK operation. But they screamed and moaned and whined and didn't. It's not as if they are one unified AOC anymore themselves, they have Irish, Polish and Maltese companies, all a ruse to keep costs down.
Another winning Ducksy strategy.

[AirportPlanner1]

Skipness, the flaw in what you say is that the other subsidiaries are all within the EU hence could if needed be shuffled around the network to cover. Comparing EZY isn’t like with like as EZY was itself UK based hence needed to re-register a substantial portion of the fleet elsewhere to maintain operations. FR have scale of UK-non EU at STN hence its cost-effective to have a UK registered and crewed operation. Same applies to EI at MAN. That isn’t the case at LPL for example where you have a handful of flights per week.

[FlyingStone]

easyJet had this sorted out literally years ago. UK based aircraft remained G- whereas a new EU based AOC was set up in Austria. Ryanair UK could have had the bulk of the UK based fleet allocated in the same way, it would have some impact on the ability to base aircraft all around Europe but the market has changed and the operator should have recognised this and adapted.

Note that easyJet has moved the bulk of the fleet away from the UK AOC/G-reg. It would be silly for any airline operating in Europe to have even a single aircraft more than absolutely neccessary registered in the UK, as it limits the scope of operation quite a bit. For example, you can forget about flying W patterns with intra-EU legs with a G-reg/UK AOC.

The question for Ryanair is, whether the profit margin on those 13 (possibly more or less in the future) warrants moving some aircraft to G-reg and accepting the limitations related to that.

[FRatSTN]

Indeed Ryanair could've re-registered their entire UK based fleet to G- aircraft, very much like how Wizz Air UK have done with everything based in the UK using the W9 code on G- aircraft. Then of course they wouldn't be restricted as to which routes they fly (ie a handful of LPL-RAK a week amongst an entirely UK-EU route network wouldn't cause any issue).

The thing is, Ryanair aircraft and crew in the UK are employed on the Irish (EI-) register along with Spain, Portgual, Greece and I think a few others. Those in Germany, France and Italy are on the Maltese (9H-) register and likewise Poland, Czech, Hungary etc. on the Polish (SP-) register. All comes down to labour union and tax cost savings to the Ryanair "group". Wizz are not represented by trade unions at the moment. When this inevitably happends at some point, they'll start to lose their cost advantage over Ryanair on labour terms and similarly may end up creating separate registers.

If, as Skipness suggests, you had everyone in the UK move to the G- register, you'd need to abide by UK employment terms as well as potentially reduce your fleet agility with these aircraft not being able to move as freely around the group network since they're registered to Ryanair UK, outside the EU. With only a handful of UK-Dom/Non-EU routes in the Ryanair network, it's perfectly understandable why they haven't gone down this road. It's totally unneccesary for the other 95%+ of the UK route network that serves the EU and can continue to operate on the current register.

[Mallorcaguy]

davidjohnson6

Another low cost airline this time from Ukraine announced on Tuesday that they have been given rights to fly a four times weekly service between Manchester and Kyiv and are also looking at a service to Lviv, obviously nothing will happen until Covid is sorted in both countries.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

AirportPlanner1

I understand Ryanair's pathological wish to have the lowest of possible cost bases. If it's scale you're after Ryanair could have chosen to operate all UK based aircraft as G- but there's a cost implication to the business they chose to avoid. Point being there was a huge shift in the rules and they intentionally left it to 5 mins to midnight to address the issue. Doesn't matter as they'll come out on top once again as ever as they've got enough cash to ride out the storm that will take out a few more airlines once reality hits home in 2021 as the post COVID market emerges. With a whole new fleet of MAXes arriving one of the issues I can see is that the original idea of selling on the B73Hs they'll be replacing will be way more difficult in such a tough marketplace.
By this summer though the Ryanair brand will be diminishing itself though as Buzz Air and Malta Air are finally rebranded properly......? I'd be lying if I said I properly got the logic behind this one as they could have maintained one unified branding albeit across all four geographies of EI / 9H / SP / G.

[southside bobby]

Appears borderline revelatory that there is an airline way of business out there that the poster above vainly perhaps continues in attempts to categorize.

[SWBKCB]

Point being there was a huge shift in the rules and they intentionally left it to 5 mins to midnight to address the issue.

G-RUKA was registered in December '18, so they've been thinking about it for a while. There was a spat with the CAA end of last year, as the CAA weren't happy about the ratio of UK registered a/c vs those leased in from other RYR AOC. Maybe this led to the change of plans.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

southside bobby

Bobby maybe if you were a little more plain? I literally have no idea what you mean, not being cheeky, but that's an incomprehensible word salad. Apologies if English isn't your first language, I don't mean to be rude but you're incredibly hard to understand.

What's an "airline way of business"?? If you mean business model then I take my hat of to MOL who has been right way more often than most. My point was that the old model of one single lowest cost expanding business, Ryanair, has reached a tipping point of maturity where for reasons of cost it's been necessary to split that winning simple model into three different brands and four AOCs. I merely questioned what benefit the split branding would bring? No other loco has done this and with Brexit already adding complexity to a model that was wonderfully KISS, I wonder how it will pan out.

[southside bobby]

SOF...
The analytical tools of your trade that continue to be defied by the "luck of the Irish" majorly enhanced by "a kiss of the blarney stone" remain of interest.

Even the not so analytically minded of course may be amazed that you suddenly "see the light" & profess "Ryanair has reached a tipping point of maturity"...really...really...Ryanair first brought the low cost/fares "revolution" to Europe 34 years ago of course dear chap.

It does appear your posts contain more than the "merely questioning a split branding" would suggest.

As you struggle noted for instance is the fact you raise too the old chestnut of the fleet rollover...

By the way... what is KISS?...Forgive me but that is probably in essence the difference between a mind bent on the classroom lesson & a straight talking Irishman...albeit blarney enthused.

"I wonder how it will pan out"...The book is not yet considered but many written on the rise & rise of "Ryanair" thus far.

[davidjohnson6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

[southside bobby]

Absolutely...
It was a tongue in cheek question to highlight absolutely the man at Ryanair & the ethics that have been instilled thru the decades...I used the question to suggest humbly that that is why the culture at Ryanair is very difficult to categorize they live it & do not conduct messaging in the form of needless acronyms used & taught in business classes nowadays.

[cavokblues]

Skipness One Foxtrot

I completely agree with you here. I can't quite work out the benefits of having the separate brands and aircraft painted in the different colours etc.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The "tipping point of maturity" refers to the growth trajectory maturing and bold increases in revenue no longer being able to keep the cost base so low. Markets plateau, growth slows and routes mature. In many cases, loads of people go once at low prices and over time volumes fall back to sustainable levels, often in ways Ryanair didn't make enough money on and so they walked away. UK domestic is a good example, low fares drove STN-PIK/EDI/GLA to high volumes but lack of ancillary sales and stiff competition meant aircraft were redeployed to new routes with lower costs and better airport deals.

The new reality is that cannot go on as there's not enough new markets to move into. This maturity is also why MOL has intentionally moved away from telling customers to FO.

I see now the Southside may be the Dagobah system, all is clear now :)

[southside bobby]

SOF...

The thinking is clear & partly correct but perhaps is soooo last year...literally.

Does not Novel Virus produce more opportunities which an arch exploiter such as MoL& team are eager & impatient to take advantage of.

Perhaps with everything on their side there is now far more upside in playing the grand game differently to what you clearly & (wrongly) anticipate.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

We disagree. Am not gonna hijack the thread trying to debate in the style of Nostradamus via google translate. You're habitually disagreeing with me, which is fine, but intentionally needling for a response and without any coherent arguement on your side.

[vikingivesterled]

cavokblues

Wasn't it Stelios that a couple of years ago in his fight with easyJet maangement over aircraft orders touted that 200 planes was the ideal size for an airline. Ryanair is certainly splitting into that sized airlines operationally if not sales/marketing wise. You also have Ryanair's unique problem that the IAA is insisting that all crew on irish registered ac should tax to Ireland and the trouble Ryanair had over this that was partial in the march to unions, and solved by adding AOC's in other juridictions. Add to that how Ryanair mgmt have utilized it to offer differnt t&c's over its airlines. And that another irishman Walsh leapfrogged O'Leary and became the head of an airline group probably also irked him. Pack that up with goodwill by the Maltese government and a want to display their name around, some resentment against Ryanair as such in some countries and inpass in the german market with Lauda, and Ryanair having pickled the Buzz name for years, you could see a continued growth through more new names. Didn't the board once tell O'Leary that if he wanted to go transatlantic he couldn't do it in a way that disturbed Ryanair core.

[cavokblues]

I understand why it makes sense legally and financially for Ryanair but from a brand and marketing perspective it seems a weird one. Will they design separate websites? Or will people book flights on the Ryanair site only to be flown on a Buzz coloured aircraft? I just don't understand why they don't keep the aircraft in Ryanair livery with a small 'operated by Buzz' at the front or something similar. The cynic in me - Buzz sounds an awful lot like Wizz. (I appreciate Ryanair have owned the Buzz name for 18 years or so) but perhaps Ryanair really are struggling against Wizz in the eastern markets and feel this brand will serve them better?

[HH6702]

I think it is more to do with tax and employment rights.
Ryanair close a base and reopen it as buzz new contracts needed for staff in a few years that closes and goes to Malta air

cheaper labour and costs will be the bottom line for Ryanair

[SWBKCB]

But you can do that without changing the brand - just a different AOC e.g. would the average SLF spot the difference between easyJet and easyJet Europe?

[davidjohnson6]

You don't even need to have a different website to allow the extra brands. It's not that difficult to create a new skin for the existing FR website, so that customers see a different logo in the required places, while the underlying code framework stays exactly the same

[southside bobby]

In Buzz livery the 8200 viewed in the metal leaves little question of an identity.

[SWBKCB]

davidjohnson6

But why go to the bother? You already have a brand which is well known, why dilute it with two new one's? Are people more like to fly with Buzz than Ryanair, pay more? Are Buzz going to offer a differnt level of service, so you need to differentiate?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

That's exactly it. easyJet have three AOCs EZY/EZS/EUJ but one pan European unified branding. It's not as if Ryanair couldn't have used "Ryanair Buzz" or similar, the three Ryanair brandings are wholly disconnected. The race to keep
costs low is a known and long standing one, Norwegian also went down this path, but again, the Norwegian, Irish, Swedish and British AOCs had one unified branding.

Surely decoupling Buzz and Malta Air will have a sales and marketing cost.

[southside bobby]

The projected livery for Malta Air says very much more about Malta than even the good ole harp livery perhaps to venture.If that is the case then more of a marketing success compared with a wee bit of software.

[speed13ird]

I'm no brand expert or marketing strategist, but a parallel may be seen in the automotive industry with the VW choice of branding - the eastern European offshoot (lower labour costs) as Skoda -essentially the same cars as mainstream VWs, the Spanish subdivision branded as SEAT, again the same cars, but lower labour costs and a sportier look, and the upmarket German brand, AUDI.

There must be some logic behind it because they're all VWs under the skin.

[SWBKCB]

The Malta Air fleet is currently well over 100 a/c - so doubt whether many of them will be seen in Malta on any given day. Not sure what your point is?

speed13ird

The different VW brands are differentiated by price, reputation, specification, equipment level etc - I've not seen anything about differences in the RYR brands

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

southside bobby

What does this mean?

I suspect only a tiny fraction of Malta Air will see their own livery and similar with Buzz. They're Ryanair fronts, nothing more. Any attempt to google "book malta air" simply takes you to Air Malta pages. It is literally driving traffic to airmalta.com !

There's no attempt at SEO.

Now as a marketing analyst, in any business I have ever been involved in, that would be ringing alarm bells.

[Buster the Bear]

Buzz has signed big deals with IT operators in Poland to supply the aircraft for the inclusive holidays. Maybe a reason for the branding?

[southside bobby]

Exactly...Posters are looking at the proposals & original planning purely from a UK market perspective.

[SWBKCB]

Not really - roughly 50 a/c on the polish AOC. Must be more to it than that.

Still yet to see an explanation for the different AOC's being given diferent brands.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

southside bobby

Didn't mention the UK directly on the branding point.
Ryanair is a pan European brand based in Dublin. Do they need 53 aircraft in Poland for IT flights for third parties? Or 120 aircraft based in Malta serving Luqa? No.
Will they be flying Germany-Italy with Malta Air branding? If so, *WHY*?

No one's attacking Ryanair. We're just questioning the branding strategy as it makes little sense on several levels IMHO.

[vikingivesterled]

Ryanair have through the years irritated more than a few customers, and politicians, so they could probably do with attacking some markets with new brands. Sample wasn't Lauda bought as n lternativ branding for the german speaking market. Could also see that they would do better with alternative name and livery if they ever went more heavily into the Nordic market. They might enjoy a grudging respect as an airline but they are not near what easyJet stand for as a brand to sell to those of potential passengers that do not only look at who have the lowest price down to the cent. That segment becomes larger and larger as the market share of Ryanair Group as a whole grows.

[LGS6753]

We're just questioning the branding strategy as it makes little sense on several levels IMHO.
As a business gets larger, it may see a need for market segmentation to increase market penetration. Previously, FR's segment was "cheap". But now it's "Mediterranean" (Malta Air), "Germanic " (Laudamotion), and "East Europeans on holiday" (Buzz), thereby widening its appeal.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Great point, well made.
That's interesting but there's a cost to fleet flexibility. Is the strategy not to drive all traffic via ryanair.com or are they going to actually skin a proper website for each brand? If your hypothesis is right, I wouldn't expect them to serve each market via a Ryanair sales portal. It would surely need a bespoke website and app for each company in the group. Perhaps MOL's "costs to a bare minimum" strategy has gone and this is a sea change? This isn't something you half do on the cheap IMHO.

[onion]

What about possible listings on the stock exchanges raising further capital, while retaining stakes in said off shoots.

Not that they need more capital, but it's an idea..... possibly readying themselves for an assault on the transatlantic market?

[rotorwills]

Can't imagine in any sense that O'Leary would even glance at a transatlantic route. Enough fools on those routes. No while never say never may prove sometimes true, the time Ryan Air looks in that direction is well into the future, not the foreseeable one either for me.

Nah, this guy can carve up Europe in the next decade without gulping down a mouthful of pond.

[racedo]

LGS6753;

You are forgetting the obvious from a Ryanair internal POV. To generate the next senior management you need people to get experience. 4 subsidaries which are sizeable airlines in their own right provide 4 times the number of people who can be provided with experience in running the whole of Ryanair. Failing to do this leaves Ryanair seeking some external candidates when MOL has had enough. Some of your management will not cut the mustard but quite a few will and whether the gain the top job or other you will have trained a whole new group of senior management.

[SWBKCB]

Sounds like an expensive training scheme

[rotorwills]

racedo

The world is not ready to be exposed to four MOL wannabes. There are so many obvious reasons as to why Ryanair appear to be moving in their direction. No, I'm not going to try and explain any of them as of one doesn't see them it's fruitless even trying to preach to the deal dumb and blind.

[southside bobby]

It is of course Ryanair & not Ryan Air which is an airline entity in the USA.

[rotorwills]

thanks, duly amended.

[LGS6753]

racedo

The biggest influence on any business is its senior management. A cohort trained in Group corporate policy and culture will be invaluable to take the business forward, and as the company grows, more will be needed.

[racedo]

SWBKCB

Really

Have you ever looked at a company who have NOT trained their senior management and brought in outsiders when a larger than life CEO retires.

If you think training senior management is expensive, have a look at all the airlines around who couldn't be bothered and just parachuted someone in with zero knowledge of the industy.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

LGS6753

Yes all true but the CEO is hired by the Board and often an external hire is preferred. Strong CEOs like MOL tend not to have strong competitors for their own jobs on their teams. Some businesses do, but many prefer a new era to begin with a new broom.
Having no aviation experience is seen as bonus, a clear eyed leader is often preferred to one who gets aroused at sales presentations by Airbus and Boeing. Aviation makes romantic fools of many, that's exactly why it's really hard to make money. MOL had no aviation experience when he joined Ryanair, it was that cold headed logic that made him such a succesful challenger. Lord King and Colin Marshall were not from the industry either, nor was Carolyn McCall at easyJet who succesfully changed the brand perception for the better.

[racedo]

LGS6753

In full agreement, Jim Collins did a good selection of books on this many years ago, appointing big name CEO into existing successful business was not a recipe for long term success. Amazing that some companies over generations seem to have got it right again and again.

[SWBKCB]

By this summer though the Ryanair brand will be diminishing itself though as Buzz Air and Malta Air are finally rebranded properly......? I'd be lying if I said I properly got the logic behind this one as they could have maintained one unified branding albeit across all four geographies of EI / 9H / SP / G.

Getting back to the original point (post #130), I take the various points about splitting the organisations down into seperate units but most of that could be done within a common corporate identity. The question why re-brand? You have one of the most reconisable brands on the continent and you look to dilute it with new ones.

Or will just one or two Buzz/Malta Air a/c be painted up for appearances sake and nothing else will change brand wise?

[flyingtincan]

"You have one of the most recognisable brands on the continent."
Maybe that's just it! Too recognisable. New brands, new customers, new reputation (but underneath the same airline).

[davidjohnson6]

A brand is ultimately a promise. It says "if you buy something from this brand, you will get services X, Y and Z"
There will need to be clear differentiation of product if the different brands are going to have any value. You can see an example of this in the large hotel chains - some of them will have 10+ different brands, all at different budgets but each deliver a different product from the cheep'n'cheerful to the ultra-luxurious. An example is Accor which ranges from their Raffles brand (yes, the Singapore hotel is part of the chain) down to the Ibis Budget chain

If you take a bad product and give it a new brand, it works for a while and then eventually customers realise that it's still the same old product

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Or will just one or two Buzz/Malta Air a/c be painted up for appearances sake and nothing else will change brand wise?
I suspect this is the likely outcome.

To the point about "new customers", I think what you mean is taking market share from the easyJets of the world? Those who fly LCC but not ULCC? easyJet did that with a single brand repositioning under Carolyn McCall, they kept the business unified. Ryanair as a ULCC would in effect end up competing with Malta Air on some routes if the group wants a low cost and an ultra low cost AOC.

[rotorwills]

Brand used on respect to RyanAir and worth has to be a joke. The slf isnt in the slightest concerned about brand image, it's all about where they are going and the cost. You have a flight from say Berlin to London, and you have three fare prices, Ryanair are cheapest, guess who's plane fills up?

Give us a break and go peddle brand awareness elsewhere, it's certainly doesn't cut any mustard when Ryanair are mentioned.

[cavokblues]

I'm not sure that's quite true. Ryanair made quite a big thing about 'growing up' a few years back and specifically targeting business travellers. If their expansion slows and the airline reaches maturity they will need to attract people by differing means other than cheap tickets. It's also a bit contradictory to say they don't care about branding whilst they're trying to launch three new brands. If branding wasn't important then they would just keep the Ryanair logo and name on the side.

[rotorwills]

Well of course I don't mean to infer that they don't care about brand, that would be foolish. The point I wanted to air was that splitting up their airline was not brand awareness intent dependent along with debunking the idea that it was intended to train management in order to have extra replacement potentials for MOL, when he eventually goes. With regards supporting a brand awareness in order to attract business travel, it's not likely that an introduction of business class separation is going to happen. Again if the fare is lowest and the route fits the bill then the seats will fill. I don't follow Ryanair generally but in my mind I have them operating at very high
load factors. I may be mistaken in that assumption and stand to be corrected. The general talk in my collection of colleagues is whilst there is no some hostility towards them there are underlying signs of grudgingly admiration, may be a little too strong in my mind, at their operating and business models. Not that they are an attractive employer, but at least they fulfil a place in the aviation business, like them or not. Plenty of pilots are flying due to their presence.

[cavokblues]

Not disputing any of that, 96% load factor in 2019. They do what they do very well. People aren't attacking Ryanair, (and I agree with you regarding them being an unattractive employer - their new Ts & Cs for cadets are outrageous but that's another debate!) it's just people trying to work out the need for the separate branding and identities. The airline industry is littered with a lot of brands within a brand not working out particularly well.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Brand used on respect to RyanAir and worth has to be a joke. The slf isnt in the slightest concerned about brand image, it's all about where they are going and the cost. You have a flight from say Berlin to London, and you have three fare prices, Ryanair are cheapest, guess who's plane fills up?

Give us a break and go peddle brand awareness elsewhere, it's certainly doesn't cut any mustard when Ryanair are mentioned.

Well of course I don't mean to infer that they don't care about brand, that would be foolish.
Ouch(!)
Ryanair got where they are through controlversial headlines driving brand recognition. They're absolutely many people's first port of call and brand identity is a huge part of that. It may be marmite but you know what you get, it's a ULCC and a known quantity. It's not always booked on price as many second home owners will testify to.

I don't follow Ryanair generally
That wasn't what was said, easyJet changed the brand perception from Stelio's tacky original to something that many (most?) business travellers would have no issue booking as the service and frequency was decent. Branding is hugely important and it's apparent very quickly when it doesn't work. BA's World Tales being the classic example.

[racedo]

rotorwills;

Is there a purpose to your personal attacks ?

[racedo]

davidjohnson6

A brand in Marketing speak is something that has value to what the customer is requiring.

In Finance terms a brand is something that has value, so bundled up together it could be sold.

A business need to be either number 1 or 2 in their market or they are just a product. Definition of what market is, remains the key.

[toledoashley]

The original premise for the multi-brand approach was IAG. MOL liked the way the individual airlines within the group were allowed to compete against each other for resources, which he saw as a way of possibly reducing cost.

[rotorwills]

Racedo.

Marketing and brand are separate entities. They are connected of course but still their functions are not the same. Not that I want to go down this route.

The Ryanair brand is of the most recognisable but not held in high regards as can be seen by the customer reviews and lists produced over the decades, in fact it comes out at the bottom of many.

I was sat in a sauna a year or two ago and the talk was European holidays and fights. One guy said he would never fly Ryanair, and was denigrating them. I just mentioned that if they, FR , had a flight from A to B and was cheaper would he book FR, well he replied he would use them.

This was a real situation, not a story. It illustrates to me that no matter what the majority of customers will choose the airline that has the route and the reasonable price he will take it.

Horses for courses, Ryan have a pretty extensive stable and their threatening further expansion, must be a concern for other aviation companies.

[LTNman]

Ryanair rolls out a travel wallet that I doubt would be recognised by any country.
https://www.travelweekly.co.uk/news/air/ryanair-rolls-out-covid-19-travel-wallet

[adfly]

Cheer up! It appears to just be a useful way of storing PCR/antibody test results and potential vaccine certificates. I personally think it is a good and forward thinking idea - benefits everyone involved in the process.

[southside bobby]

Ryanair extend their zero charge flight change policy for all bookings made before 30.6.21

Bookings enabled to be changed twice with nil charge until the end of Oct. this year.

[southside bobby]

A second B738 for Ryanair UK in the form of G-RUKB reg 10.3.21 transferred from Ryanair Buzz SP-.

[CCFAIRPORT]

New base : Zagreb with 2 based A/C
12 new routes
Charleroi 3pw
Dortmund 2 pw
Frankfurt Hahn 3 pw
Gothenburg 3 pw
Karlsruhe 3 pw
London Stansted 7 pw
Memmingen 2 pw
Milano Bergamo 4 pw
Paris Beauvais 2 pw
Podgorica 2 pw
Rome Champino 3 pw
Oslo Torp 2 pw

[mariofly12]

Last week FR announced 3 new seasonal bases in Greece, CFU,RHO,CHQ..But 2 of them are re-launches essentially..46 new routes, in addition to the already existing..

CFU-HER,JTR,PFO,TLV,BCN,MRS,MXP,VRN,CPH,AAR,WRO,KRK,ODS,SBZ,FMO, FKB,NRN,NUE

CHQ-JMK,TLV,BRI.CIA,BLQ,MLA,TSF,CGN,BRE,BER,BUD,BLL,KBP,NCL,LBA

RHO-SKG, HER,PFO,TLV,SCV,WMI,BDS,BCN,MRS,FMM,TSF,BHX,DUB

[southside bobby]

`8200 moves a step closer with FAA certification yesterday with EASA approval within a few working days.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Anyone know what EI-SEV stands for, ref the lone B737-700?
It's out of sequence and as the company trainer, I am betting "SEV" means something?

[OzzyOzBorn]

SEV = SEVen Hundred Series (B73G) ?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Ahh could be! Should have twigged that, thanks.

[CCFAIRPORT]

NEW BASE : RIGA
14 NEW ROUTES
2 BASED A/C

Aarhus
Beauvais
Bristol
Budapest
Ciampino
Göteborg
Krakow
Kyiv
Lviv
Malaga
Memmingen
Palermo
Sandefjord
Warsaw-Modlin

[Noxegon]

NEW BASE : RIGA

Air Baltic won't be pleased.

[rotorwills]

Kitchen , heat.

[Banana Joe]

How many aircraft are currently based in MLA and will it expand?

[Seljuk22]

see here:
https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-opens-5-new-malta-routes-to-italy-greece-57-routes-to-from-malta-for-summer-21/?market=mt

[CCFAIRPORT]

NEW BASE : BILLUND (from October 2021)
2 BASED A/C
16 New routes in total (9 from this summer, 7 from this winter)

Already Announced :
Barcelona x2
Bologna x2
Edinburgh x2
Gdansk x2
Milan-BGY x2
Poznan x2
Ciampino x2
Venice-TSF x2
Vilnius x2

Winter new routes
Brussels-crl x3
Gothenburg x3
Memmingen x2
Sibiu x2
Sevilla x2
Tallinn x2
Wroclaw x2

[FRatSTN]

New base from October 21. Routes currently being loaded on website/app:
Aalborg
Alicante
Banja Luka
Bologna
Brussels Charleroi
Gdansk
Gothenburg
Karlsruhe
Kaunas
Krakow
Liverpool
London Stansted
Malaga
Malmo
Milan Bergamo
Nis
Riga
Tallinn
Thessaloniki
Vienna
Warsaw Modlin

[CCFAIRPORT]

Maybe the end of opeRations fRom Stockholm Skavsta ? no moRe flights fRom winteR on the website

[EGNXROB]

Anyone know why flights for S22 are not on sale from East Midlands?

[Fly757X]

A large chunk of the network is yet to go on sale. Nothing out of the ordinary.

[EGNXROB]

sorry seems no flights bookable from 31.12.21 from East Midlands

[Fly757X]

Well then that could be a separate matter all together however for other destinations it is indeed the case that some S22 routes are yet to be loaded.

[CCFAIRPORT]

New routes
New Fr destination

Karlsruhe-Baden to Tuzla
Düsseldorf-Weeze to Tuzla

Both begin September 2021 and twice weekly

[Tech Guy]

Must be the scenic route. Or a clever way of getting you to spend more onboard. :)


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x600/img_20210518_210434_993_thumb_jpg_decf8ca265698db743bdd1fbab a4a246_9edbe8afab72d667c3b5223e3303760b89cbd0f3.jpg

[DomyDom]

New routes:
Manchester- Santander 2pw
Manchester- Verona 2pw

[davidjohnson6]

I am aware that there are other threads around the ATH-VNO flight, focussing on all the legalities, politics, the did-X-happen-or-not, why-did-they-do-Y, and general after-effect of this....

Looking at this from a solely Ryanair standpoint, have the crew of this flight been given some *paid* time off to catch their breath and been allowed to get over the shock a bit ? I am guessing these are ordinary people who did not wish to become the centre of world attention
I know FR doesn't exactly have a fluffy image, but this is a time when an employer should perhaps have a duty of care to its employees.

[Dorking]

I also do hope so David. They are ordinary people, caught up in extra ordinary circumstances, during which time I`m sure they gave of their best. I think it would be unwise to identify any of them but they are entitled to due care by their employer. I wish each one of them the very best.

[CCFAIRPORT]

New routes

düsseldorf-weeze to bergamo
düsseldorf-weeze to tallinn
düsseldorf-weeze to lanzarote
düsseldorf-weeze to tenerife south

all begin for winter 2021

[LowNSlow]

Has Mr O'Leary fallen out with Luton's management as all flights from Dublin to Luton seem to have been cancelled for the foreseeable future but flights to/from Kerry and Cork are available?

[davidjohnson6]

Luton - Dublin seems to be bookable from 01 July
This may be linked to an expectation that Ireland will announce this week that it will substantially unlock to arriving UK residents from early July

[mikkie4]

YIPPY.......Our first flight has just taken of, Weldone done RYR for keeping faith in SOUTHEND AIRPORT

[Alteagod]

From acorns oak trees are grown

[CCFAIRPORT]

New Base : Turin
15 new routes
All begin end of october / beginning of November
Beauvais
Budapest
Copenhagen
Edinburgh
Krakow
Kyiv
Lanzarote
London-LTN
Madrid
Malaga
Marrakesh
Sevilla
Shannon
Tel-Aviv
Trapani

[Teaboy24]

First B.737Max currently on delivery flight to Dublin

[southside bobby]

B737-8200...MOL states now expects reduced total of 12 airframes to be delivered for ops this summer...6 x RYR...6 x Malta Air.

[Seljuk22]

Helsinki joins the network
https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-announces-its-expansion-in-finland-this-winter-with-9-new-routes-14-routes-in-total/?market=fi

[EGAC is Better]

The B737-8 MAX200 looks to have entered service today at STN this morning.

EI-HEZ operated FR4192/4191 between STN and BGY.

Can anyone confirm if this is the first commercial service? Or were the HEN & HEZ’s positioning flights from DUB to STN also carry paying passengers?

[pabely]

I think it ran a service rather than positioning from DUB, see https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637163-stansted-4-a-15.html#post11067126

[southside bobby]

Indeed could be said the B737-8200 entered service FROM Stansted today with EI-HEZ to Bergamo...since returning.

EI-HEN operated the first ever B737-8200 commercial flight for RYR on the evening of 23.6 when it flew a DUB-STN service.

EI-HEZ operated the morning DUB-STN service yesterday 25.6.

Both a/c based now STN.

[Brian Pern]

Got to give it to him MOL has big brass ones, when the dust settles I am sure Ryanair will still be standing.

[rotorwills]

Honestly not sure what the ones are made of, but they won't be holding him back in the race to get back to extending his hold in Europe. Surprised that the first Max delivery is to UK. I had heard they were destined for Poland. Maybe changes to take advantage of prospective green countries.

Its going to be interesting to see how aggressive he gets with his pricing. Will he really continue with such cut throat fares with what looks like little to no real competition. These other airlines, Ezy, Jet2 need to get moving.

[pabely]

Plenty of Buzz 737-8200 waiting to be delivered.

[SealinkBF]

Anyone know what this is?
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1480/screenshot_20210628_212136_flightradar24_6aa6214faefd7d14421 2f816f9061f7456ee5b12.jpg

[BA318]

“It is used as engineering support to protect and maintain our record of the fewest delays and cancellations of any major European airline,” Ryanair said.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20211674.html%3ftype=amp

[Buster the Bear]

They have 3. easyJet use 2Excel Aviation Beech 200s

[GayFriendly]

This very aircraft appeared at VRN last August bringing engineers from BGY to fix an issue when my VRN-BHX flight went tech. I was very impressed with how FR dealt with the whole incident, we were issued food vouchers and ground staff were excellent, giving us regular updates. We weren't held at the gate either which allowed us to stretch our legs in the terminal whilst waiting. We eventually took off around 2 hours late but had it not been for this little aircraft and its passengers, I imagine my flight would have been cancelled.

[SWBKCB]

Ben Houchen said there had been "fluctuations" in demand as the low-cost carrier this week began to cancel a number of its holiday flights scheduled for later this month. He has also denied claims suggesting that taxpayers money has been "subsidising" Ryanair for cancelled flights due to demand.The Northern Echo earlier this week first reported that several flights to Alicante, Palma and Corfu had been cancelled with some routes temporarily dropped from two to just one per week.

Have RYR been making similar cancellations elsewhere? Maybe that these are just more visible at MME.

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19410605.ben-houchen-responds-ryanair-cancels-teesside-flights/

[CCFAIRPORT]

New base : Agadir
16 new routes

Alicante
Barcelona
Beauvais
Bologna
Ciampino
Dublin
Karlsruhe/Baden
Krakow
Madrid
Malaga
Nantes
Naples
Sevilla
Tenerife-South
Toulouse
Porto

[davidjohnson6]

Last week, there were news reports that Lauda cabin crew were getting an earful for not generating enough in flight sales of food, perfume and other items
Article in German:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lauda-wien-ryanair-ngesichts-ihrer-unfaehigkeit-und-mangelnden-eigenmotivation

Being the awkward git that I am I found myself wondering.... what rules does Ryanair Group have against especially hard sell of items by cabin crew ? Is waking sleeping passengers to sell scratchcards allowed ? Perhaps on longer flights spend a minute at each row pestering pax to buy stuff ? Can cabin crew "play up" so as to hit sales targets ?
Where do FR draw the line as to what constitutes overly aggressive hard sell that might boost sales of food, but potentially damages the airline brand perception by consumers ?

[rotorwills]

I heard that Ryanair has three rules that cabin crew should remember and adhere to when selling to passengers.

1. Sell
2. Sell
3. Sell.

If not successful in applying these rules, go back to rule1, then 2, then 3 recurring.

[D9009]

If the fare is €14.99 and you sell a coffee and a chocolate bar for €5.99, then you have increased the revenue for the seat by more than a 1/3rd. I'm sure the sales of booze help too. As for damaging the brand, onboard sales is the brand.

[Dannyboy39]

To be honest, having flown RYR about 30-40 times in the last few years, I can’t remember them being any more demanding than any other airline cabin crew. My biggest gripe with them is that most of them look like they’ve been dragged through a hedge backwards with their uniforms.

[daz211]

I have more pressure from TUI crew trying to Sell Sell Sell, and found it very frustrating that you can’t select seats until 90 days before departure.

[DC3 Dave]

MOL says FR will continue to require pax to wear masks on flights from England even if there is no legal requirement to do so from 19/6.

Good or or bad call?

[brian_dromey]

Good, I think. Wearing a mask when in close confines to strangers seems like a sensible approach - although all passengers should be vaccinated and/or have a negative COVID test, so the risk is probably very low.

It's worth bearing in mind that the majority of the FR fleet is operated under Irish, Maltese or Polish registrations, only 2 are on the UK register - masks are legally required on Irish registered aircraft, for example. So it is probably easier to require them rather than expect people to work out if the flight is Ryanair, Ryanair UK, Buzz, Malta Air or Lauda Europe. easyJet will also have a similar issue - it appears that Austria requires FFP2 masks, not just any old face covering. There are also obligations for Ryanair and easyJet as employers - 2m distance cannot be maintained on an aircraft, there are no exemptions for crew under Irish or Austrian regulations, for example.

[rotorwills]

Sell sell was a joke. Only ever flew Ryan twice, Stanstead to Rimini and return, outward fare £1. Inbound can't recall but was cheap. Sorry if I ruffled anyones feathers. COVID boys drives you mad, That's a joke as well.

not the virus but the idea of madness. Mind you getting a little tired of all the media talk of mental illness being done with COVID. It may be but there's enough of other major causes of mental health, better not make a joke here as will undoubtedly get some bitter replies.

anyway all at Ryanair carry on regardless. Yep. That's a funny.

[Dorking]

brian_dromey

I think this is something that they are going to have to run by their lawyers. Although foreign registered they are operating and trading within a jurisdiction that has withdrawn all legislation requiring mandatory compliance. It is not a condition of carriage to wear a mask. Equally if someone says they are exempt it is against UK legislation to demand to know what that disability is. I think its a typical RYR kneejerk. In the coming weeks their may be some `wiggle room`. Easyjet have hedged their bets saying that this issue is under constant review. I`ll bet it is. A legal minefield.

[davidjohnson6]

What would stop FR making the wearing of masks a condition of carriage ? Do they need to give a notice period ?

[Dorking]

I would suggest another minefield. Under contract law, you cannot make terms retrospective. Therefore if they were to introduce masks as such, some would, some wouldn`t have to comply depending on when you entered into contract with them and on the same flight..Complete farce. In addition to which foreign Governments domestic legislation re masks(ie Irish Reg Aircraft) has no validity in the UK and is not enforceable.

Interestingly the Rail Industry have tonight said they will not enforce masks on trains...

[True Blue]

It will never happen as this is just MOL claiming some media attention. Remember they believe all publicity is good publicity.

[commit aviation]

Dorking - Agreed the legal situation is a minefield.

In fact mask wearing isn't that simple either. On the ground in the UK - not enforceable but outside UK airspace that could change.
Too complex for me but this article appears to cover it quite well if anyone's interested. I should add, I am not a lawyer so can't guarantee it's accuracy but from memory it sounds about right.
Which Country's Laws Are Enforced During International Flights? - Simple Flying (https://simpleflying.com/which-countrys-laws-are-enforced-during-international-flights/)

[davidjohnson6]

Unilateral changing of contract terms is indeed naughty. However, how many passengers would really challenge Ryanair cabin crew by insisting on their rights, especially when calling the police is threatened for not wearing a mask ? Flying with FR usually involves multiple jurisdictions - it's a bit of an unknown to figure out which country's laws do or don't apply. I very much doubt that the average police officer in Europe is remotely interested in the legal niceties of what details were in the contract at the time of booking versus what is in the contract now.... most police officers at an airport will just arrest first when cabin crew claim a passenger has been disruptive, and ask questions a few hours later. Do you really want to be held under arrest for a couple of hours while your flight departs, only for the police to decide to let you go without charges ? Challenging FR through the police and courts to seek later recompense can be an awfully expensive and time consuming business

Thus, FR pretty much can insist on everyone wearing a mask whether the requirement is legally binding or not... and get away with it

[LTNman]

Continued mask wearing will persuade some passengers to fly but with Covid cases set to double in the next 9 days and then the removal of restrictions in England, so they will double again at a faster rate, I can see Europe locking down on U.K. flights.

[AirportPlanner1]

They have the right to prevent anyone from boarding that doesn’t conform to their rules. I’m sure you could also be offloaded into any jurisdiction on the basis of ignoring crew orders if the mask was removed.

Any business could demand masks be worn on their premises. What the anti-maskers/libertarians fail to understand is others have rights as well.

[Dorking]

The point I was making is a legal one. Their rules, as you put it, have to be enshrined in law and for the most part the Air Navigation Act gives the crew, rightly, their authority. The particular issue with this is that the legislation, presently empowering crew, is being withdrawn and not replaced by any other overarching or specific legal instrument. That, precisely, is the legal minefield that operators are going to have to negotiate. I`m making no comments on any other aspect of this issue.

[bycrewlgw]

AirportPlanner1

that is correct. On private property you follow the owners rules. As long as it’s not illegal it is fine. Take smoking on board an aircraft, it wasn’t illegal for years yet many airlines chose to enforce it. It can be the same with masks.

[Sober Lark]

Not all passengers are vaccinated. Not all passengers are from UK.

[Mr A Tis]

I suspect as Javid has predicted UK C-19 cases could soar to 100,000 a day, many countries will just stop accepting UK originating pax, vaccinated or not. Thus mask wearing for air travel from the UK is almost academic.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

AirportPlanner1

I think we all need to stop thinking in extremes. "Anti-maskers" and "anti-maskers" is bundling some good honourable arguments in with the extremists. I won't be flying again until the mask mandate is removed, mainly because I won't be paying that much money to sit with a cloth covering across my face for hours on end. It's worth remember why the mask mandate remains. It is PRIMARILY a reminder and a CONTROL MECHANISM, with all the good intentions in the world, it's a noble lie. How many times have you gone out and forgotten your mask and had to go back for it? That's what it's primarily for, to keep us conscious we're in a pandemic and danger remains. If you ever want to go back to normal, and I do, then if we cannot take masks off in mid summer as hospitalisations and deaths have collapsed as the vaccine is rolled out, then there's a real chance that this panic runs to next summer, That's two and a half years.
So yeah, by all means wear a mask, but the experts were being honest in early 2020 when they said it barely makes a difference, the impetus to make people wear one was from behavioural pyschology, and it worked to some degree. The first airline that says they're no longer required will also be within their rights and I am will book with them when the time comes. If not now, then it's going to be another year of this because a lot of people will meltdown when seasonal flu / COVID hits in winter, and the media will LOVE it.