Cardiff-3

[runway30]

Promotion by airports isn't done as much as it used to be, and of course local media isn't the force it was. There appears to be much greater reliance on airlines and tour operator and their websites and social media.

Cardiff really does look very much as though it is in potentially terminal decline. Given their superior runway and facilities a few decades ago you might have bet on Cardiff becoming a much larger airport than Bristol but it hasn't worked out thus. Probably not bagging 'Go' that was subsequently flogged to Easyjet during the rapid growth of LoCo airlines a couple of decades ago was the turning point.
I hate to spoil a good story but if you read Babara Cassani's book you will see that Cardiff was never in the running for a base.

[caaardiff]

Some spot on comments from previous posts. There's a mix of things going wrong at CWL. The main one I would say is people automatically looking at Bristol or other Airports as their first choice, then the propensity to fly and constant change of available routes. Then throw in what appears to be an unambitious management team that seems too complacent and have little appetite to really showcase CWL.
KLM are a longstanding airline at CWL, so something is seriously wrong for them to drop the overnight aircraft. This reduction will severely hamper connection options available from CWL and will in turn affect the demand of the remaining 2 flights. Hopefully this is only a temporary reduction, but who knows.
If it is a commercial decision then serious questions need to be asked. If KL aren't able to maintain what is a historic route frequency, then definitely kiss goodbye to QR returning. KL's bread and butter is connections, and if Welsh people aren't using KL's connections, then they sure as hell won't fill QR's aircraft.

On the flip side, lets not forget CWL is seeing more growth from FR. FR is CWL's last hope of survival. If FR can't make it work then no Airline can. CWL should be screaming from the rooftops about FR's routes, because FR very rarely do any of their own advertising. An Airline like FR will get people through the door, which in turn will get people thinking CWL again. It happened around 10 years ago when Flybe returned and numbers started increasing before covid.

Time for a change of Management to a team with ambition and clout.

[TOM100]

FR growth is small, yes a couple of new destinations but they have lost 3 flights a week to DUB.

The catchment leakage to BRS runs into 000”s - the airport should be massively incentivising FR and LS to base and grow ( maybe they are or are trying ?), even if some initial commercial pain to get confidence growing, but where is the so called board of directors (who I assume are paid to do a job) in holding this dreadful performance and lack of results to account via the management team ? There just seems no urgency to (on the surface) do or try anything - they must see this platform is burning intensely. The whole set up and leadership just appears so passive (and comfortable) to an onlooker.

[DC3 Dave]

Some might say there are a lot of pigeons coming home to Rhoose right now.

[runway30]

What you are all forgetting is that there is another Board above the Board. That Board calls the shots because they own the business and receive political direction. You have a Minister for Transport who would rather go to Amsterdam on a bicycle than promote going there by air. You have politicians who will scream in the Senedd any time any money is spent.
I supported the airport being rescued by the taxpayer because at the time it was necessary but now it has been in public ownership too long. The government overpaid and made poor strategic decisions. Whether the private sector has an appetite to invest and whether the government could sustain the political outcry at losing the money they have invested is another matter.

[LGS6753]

What you are all forgetting is that there is another Board above the Board. That Board calls the shots because they own the business and receive political direction. You have a Minister for Transport who would rather go to Amsterdam on a bicycle than promote going there by air. You have politicians who will scream in the Senedd any time any money is spent.
I supported the airport being rescued by the taxpayer because at the time it was necessary but now it has been in public ownership too long. The government overpaid and made poor strategic decisions. Whether the private sector has an appetite to invest and whether the government could sustain the political outcry at losing the money they have invested is another matter.
This is the key. Public ownership simply doesn't work.
The management work for the politicians (Labour) who aren't interested which means the owners can't attract the best management.
Resources are competed-for by schools'n'hospitals. No sensible MS would opt for airport investment against those.
Politicians are generally very low-calibre individuals, particularly when it comes to running a business.
The current obsession with all things green in Cardiff Bay means aviation will never get a fair crack of the whip.
Labour aren't very enamoured with privatisation, so I don't see a very positive future for CWL.

[Letsflycwl]

FR growth is small, yes a couple of new destinations but they have lost 3 flights a week to DUB.

The catchment leakage to BRS runs into 000”s - the airport should be massively incentivising FR and LS to base and grow ( maybe they are or are trying ?), even if some initial commercial pain to get confidence growing, but where is the so called board of directors (who I assume are paid to do a job) in holding this dreadful performance and lack of results to account via the management team ? There just seems no urgency to (on the surface) do or try anything - they must see this platform is burning intensely. The whole set up and leadership just appears so passive (and comfortable) to an onlooker.

You’ve deffo hit the nail on the head with the hammer…..would anyone know who the actual CWL management is if they bumped into them ?? You see nothing of them, hear nothing from them so love to know what their day entails as at present it is simply just haemorrhaging routes, airlines and destinations.

Get some new blood in, people with the drive and ambition who have the actual gut determination to sell CWL and to be seen.

[Wycombe]

KLM will be reducing flights at CWL more than at other airports because they are making less money there. Maybe if more Welsh people supported the flights from the airport, it might encourage more flights?
KLM announced last week an increase to 3 daily (6 days a week, 2 on Sat) from SOU, from 31st March.

[CWL757]

I know it'll come down to operational reasons, but the nightstopper seems an odd one to cut, that means they will have an additional aircraft to park overnight in an already very congested AMS (Unless another airport is gaining a Nightstop?) and it removes the daytrip and a good chunk of business pax.

Surely the mid morning would be the better one to cut?

I'm sure they've done their homework but it seems odd.

As for the future of CWL, Ive always said they shouldn't put all their eggs in one basket as they did with WW,BE etc, but they do need to do their damn best to get FR expanding now! LS was the biggest missed opportunity of recent times for CWL imo, A finacially stable, and well loved carrier with a fantastic mix of city and sunshine destinations.

As I say, the airport needs a full management and media overhaul and ideally needs private owners again now.

LM isn't working because its not even daily, and when it is, its only 1x and silly prices. A reasonably priced 2x (ideally 3x) service is needed. The same would be needed with a EDI route.

Belfast seems OK, but again more frequency is needed, same with DUB.

I miss the 90s/00s where the airport had strong links to most EU bases and numerous based 757,767 & A321s.

what a shame.

[Letsflycwl]

I know it'll come down to operational reasons, but the nightstopper seems an odd one to cut, that means they will have an additional aircraft to park overnight in an already very congested AMS (Unless another airport is gaining a Nightstop?) and it removes the daytrip and a good chunk of business pax.

Surely the mid morning would be the better one to cut?

I'm sure they've done their homework but it seems odd.

As for the future of CWL, Ive always said they shouldn't put all their eggs in one basket as they did with WW,BE etc, but they do need to do their damn best to get FR expanding now! LS was the biggest missed opportunity of recent times for CWL imo, A finacially stable, and well loved carrier with a fantastic mix of city and sunshine destinations.

As I say, the airport needs a full management and media overhaul and ideally needs private owners again now.

LM isn't working because its not even daily, and when it is, its only 1x and silly prices. A reasonably priced 2x (ideally 3x) service is needed. The same would be needed with a EDI route.

Belfast seems OK, but again more frequency is needed, same with DUB.

I miss the 90s/00s where the airport had strong links to most EU bases and numerous based 757,767 & A321s.

what a shame.

So many missed opportunities over the years which is horrible to witness. CWL was/is a great place but wow the finger of blame has to go to the management. Totally shocking.

Agree an increase of x2 daily M-F for EDI and Loganair…what about GLA ? NCL ? JER ?

In my opinion a small airline such as Eastern (yeah I know some people hate them) with say AT7 or E70 should be targeted. Eastern seem to have out lived most U.K. airlines. They could easily operate the domestic and euro regional routes with CWL help and incentives.

[vectisman]

What all of you ranting above seem to forget is that airlines will maintain services from an airport if it is financially viable to do so. Clearly airlines have decided that there is more money to be made elsewhere. Changing the management and stamping your feet will not change this simple truth.
In the summer leisure travel makes money for some operators less so in the winter. Domestic flying from most smaller airports is at best marginally profitable and at Cardiff less so.
You can all have wish lists as long as your arms and look for scapegoats, but that will not change the economic reality.

[SWBKCB]

This is the key. Public ownership simply doesn't work.

Except to rescue the private sector when it fails

Agree an increase of x2 daily M-F for EDI and Loganair… what about GLA ? NCL ? JER ?

Flybe Mk. 2?

[Sean North]

What all of you ranting above seem to forget is that airlines will maintain services from an airport if it is financially viable to do so. Clearly airlines have decided that there is more money to be made elsewhere. Changing the management and stamping your feet will not change this simple truth.
In the summer leisure travel makes money for some operators less so in the winter. Domestic flying from most smaller airports is at best marginally profitable and at Cardiff less so.
You can all have wish lists as long as your arms and look for scapegoats, but that will not change the economic reality.

But management do set the fees. Let's compare to Bristol:

Cardiff

Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £17.50 per passenger

Bristol

Fee over 3 tonnes = £16.90 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £16.35 per passenger

Then there are other fees, of which Bristol is cheaper. Bristol is cheaper to operate from.

Of course airlines maintain flights if it is financial viable. Airport charges are a part of that. Do you really support Cardiff Airport making itself uncompetitive? You are blind to the failings of management if you do not recognise overcharging compared to your biggest competitor is folly. Cardiff Airport should be undercharging.

[vectisman]

But management do set the fees. Let's compare to Bristol:

Cardiff

Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £17.50 per passenger

Bristol

Fee over 3 tonnes = £16.90 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £16.35 per passenger

Then there are other fees, of which Bristol is cheaper. Bristol is cheaper to operate from.

Of course airlines maintain flights if it is financial viable. Airport charges are a part of that. Do you really support Cardiff Airport making itself uncompetitive? You are blind to the failings of management if you do not recognise overcharging compared to your biggest competitor is folly. Cardiff Airport should be undercharging.

I think you also need to take into account economies of scale when looking at the pricing. Cardiff has to provide certain services and safety standards to be able to legally operate as an airport. These costs have to be spread over a smaller number of
operators and passengers compared to the much larger number of users at Bristol. Personally I have no feelings about Cardiff either way, I was just pointing out the economic reality of the situation.

[Sean North]

I think you also need to take into account economies of scale when looking at the pricing. Cardiff has to provide certain services and safety standards to be able to legally operate as an airport. These costs have to be spread over a smaller number of
operators and passengers compared to the much larger number of users at Bristol. Personally I have no feelings about Cardiff either way, I was just pointing out the economic reality of the situation.

The Welsh Govt is the owner. The airport has the ability to put off making a profit over the short-term. It certainly has the cash and capital to keep operating. The airport should make a loss on aircraft fees to incentivise passenger numbers, and aim to make the money back through passengers passing through the airport terminal and spending in shops (of which the airport could own the franchises of to make more money).

The Welsh Govt has written off debt equivalent to over 2m passengers worth. When you have them through your door, you get them spending. It's a loss leader. It's what Southend did.

[caaardiff]

But management do set the fees. Let's compare to Bristol:

Cardiff

Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £17.50 per passenger

Bristol

Fee over 3 tonnes = £16.90 per tonne
Passenger load charge = £16.35 per passenger

Then there are other fees, of which Bristol is cheaper. Bristol is cheaper to operate from.

Of course airlines maintain flights if it is financial viable. Airport charges are a part of that. Do you really support Cardiff Airport making itself uncompetitive? You are blind to the failings of management if you do not recognise overcharging compared to your biggest competitor is folly. Cardiff Airport should be undercharging.

Where did you find those charges? Because the charges I've found on each Airports website are different:

Cardiff
Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Parking fee = £240 (Free for first 2 hours)
Security charge - £2.85 per departing passenger
Passenger load charge = £17.30 per passenger

Bristol
"Runway fee" over 3 tonnes = £18.00 per tonne
Parking fee 0-30 tonne = £21.70 per aircraft + £1.50 per tonne
Airport Safety & Security Levy = £7.26 per departing passenger
Passenger load supplement = £17.50 per passenger

BRS also has an ATC fee - over 3 tonne = £6.10 per tonne

I can't find anything as an ATC fee on CWL's charges.

So based on that, CWL charges less for passenger load, considerably less for security per departing passenger, but based on the above CWL has higher landing fee and parking fee, despite having slightly different set ups.
Also lets not forget these are standard charges and don't reflect any commercial agreement with based or regular Airlines, which we're unlikely ever to see.

[Sean North]

Where did you find those charges? Because the charges I've found on each Airports website are different:

Cardiff
Landing fee between 25-200 tonnes = £23.50 per tonne
Parking fee = £240 (Free for first 2 hours)
Security charge - £2.85 per departing passenger
Passenger load charge = £17.30 per passenger

Bristol
"Runway fee" over 3 tonnes = £18.00 per tonne
Parking fee 0-30 tonne = £21.70 per aircraft + £1.50 per tonne
Airport Safety & Security Levy = £7.26 per departing passenger
Passenger load supplement = £17.50 per passenger

BRS also has an ATC fee - over 3 tonne = £6.10 per tonne

I can't find anything as an ATC fee on CWL's charges.

So based on that, CWL charges less for passenger load, considerably less for security per departing passenger, but based on the above CWL has higher landing fee and parking fee, despite having slightly different set ups.
Also lets not forget these are standard charges and don't reflect any commercial agreement with based or regular Airlines, which we're unlikely ever to see.

My point is not so much the exact figures but rather what the figures show. That is Cardiff Airport is not clearly, beyond any doubt, cheaper as it should be. Refusing to waive the parking fee would motivate KLM to cut the flight. That's the best part of £100k a year in parking fees for Cardiff alone.

[SWBKCB]

My point is not so much the exact figures but rather what the figures show. That is Cardiff Airport is not clearly, beyond any doubt, cheaper as it should be. Refusing to waive the parking fee would motivate KLM to cut the flight. That's the best part of £100k a year in parking fees for Cardiff alone.

If KLM are paying the "walk up" rate - which would be surprising.

[cavokblues]

So what should the Welsh government be doing?

The airport was failing as a private enterprise, hence why they stepped in.

They could offer cheap rates to stimulate some activity, or do a Southend and pay an airline to operate routes for a summer, as they did with Flybe. But look where Southend are now, losing a lot more money then they ever were.

Equally, what happens when the incentives stop? Airlines like Ryanair are incredibly flexible so they'll just up and move to where they can get better yields.

I don't know what the answer is, tbh.

[caaardiff]

My point is not so much the exact figures but rather what the figures show. That is Cardiff Airport is not clearly, beyond any doubt, cheaper as it should be. Refusing to waive the parking fee would motivate KLM to cut the flight. That's the best part of £100k a year in parking fees for Cardiff alone.

The point you were trying to make wasn't a factual point though. CWL and BRS pricing structure is different in a number of ways, so unless you do a complete analysis of a certain aircraft type and passenger number, you wouldn't know if CWL is cheaper or not.

Also KLM have been flying from CWL for decades, you can't honestly suggest they are paying the standard rates. FR wouldn't be flying there is they were paying the standard rate. Wizz wouldn't have been coaxed under the standard rate. You cannot judge CWL's prices on the basis of standard rates.

[caaardiff]

So what should the Welsh government be doing?

The airport was failing as a private enterprise, hence why they stepped in.

They could offer cheap rates to stimulate some activity, or do a Southend and pay an airline to operate routes for a summer, as they did with Flybe. But look where Southend are now, losing a lot more money then they ever were.

Equally, what happens when the incentives stop? Airlines like Ryanair are incredibly flexible so they'll just up and move to where they can get better yields.

I don't know what the answer is, tbh.

Flybe were effectively paid to operate the E95 routes, Vueling had a substantial marketing budget, there is talk, although not confirmed, that QR and Qatar had various subsidies and deals. Wizz would've had some form of benefit thrown at them and no doubt so have FR.
Vueling is the telling sign that since the 10 year deal ended they have gradually reduced. One would hope that CWL could throw some money at them and FR just to get people through the door and stimulate growth. In turn there'll be beneficial income from things such as parking and retail.

[davidjohnson6]

Throughout the world, when you have two adjacent regions each with their own airport, airlines will always base their aircraft in the region with larger population and higher incomes... and make the poor neighbours travel further. Airlines would be crazy to act otherwise.

Cardiff airport and its traffic reflects the local economy, much like Leeds airport. If you want to see a busy CWL... then you need a really buoyant and dynamic economy in south Wales. You might be able to persuade the odd airline (eg Qatar) to try you out... but in the long term, you need a robust local economy. Anything else is just trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear. When you walk around places like Barry and see people struggling to make ends meet, it's not encouraging

Dublin airport used to be sleepy. In the last 30 years, the economy around Dublin has gained vast wealth and the airport is booming. Same with Cork. Yes, the airport is an important asset, just like good roads and a train station... but the way to revive CWL is by creating a strong economy first. Good education, strong skill base, etc...

[caaardiff]

Throughout the world, when you have two adjacent regions each with their own airport, airlines will always base their aircraft in the wealthy region and make the poor neighbours travel further. Airlines would be crazy to act otherwise.

Cardiff airport and its traffic reflects the local economy, much like Leeds airport. If you want to see a busy CWL... then you need a really buoyant and dynamic economy in south Wales. when you walk around places like Barry and see people struggling to make ends meet, it's not encouraging

Dublin airport used to be sleepy. In the last 30 years, the economy around Dublin has gained vast wealth and the airport is booming. Yes, the airport is an important asset, just like good roads and a train station... but the way to fix CWL is by creating a strong economy first. Good education, strong skill base, etc...

Of course what you say is correct in theory, but why are well over 1m Welsh people using BRS, if not more than 1m? Even for routes operated from CWL. Quite simply, price. The Southwest region is more affluent than Wales, but there is definitely propensity to fly in Wales. It'll be interesting to see how the FR routes perform this summer. The timings are terrible but hopefully the prices will be right.

[davidjohnson6]

Before anybody takes offence, I write this with good intentions. Really, I do.

Debating propensity to travel within Wales and air fares is just tinkering at the edges. A sleepy CWL is merely a symptom. A lousy moribund economy in south Wales is the disease.

Cure the disease, instead of trying to cover the symptom with cosmetic make-up. The medicine is good education and high skills. Medicine takes a long time to act... but once it does, the cure is long-lasting.

[cymru]

Before anybody takes offence, I write this with good intentions. Really, I do.

Debating propensity to travel within Wales and air fares is just tinkering at the edges. A sleepy CWL is merely a symptom. A lousy moribund economy in south Wales is the disease.

Cure the disease, instead of trying to cover the symptom with cosmetic make-up. The medicine is good education and high skills. Medicine takes a long time to act... but once it does, the cure is long-lasting.

Amen!

[GROUNDHOG]

I am an old man now, my commercial history with Cardiff goes back over 50 years.. I don't know the market today but davidjohnson6 and cymru are spot on. Nothing will change until the local economy changes.

[Sean North]

And who is to blame for a terrible South Wales economy? The Welsh Government

You have a completely incompetent government - who seem to be ideologically opposed to wealth creation to any extent - trying to operate an airport (admittedly at 'arm's length' whether we believe the claims or not) in an area their policies have repeatedly made poor. I concur with the above posters. EGFF's decline was inevitable.

[vectisman]

And who is to blame for a terrible South Wales economy? The Welsh Government

You have a completely incompetent government - who seem to be ideologically opposed to wealth creation to any extent - trying to operate an airport (admittedly at 'arm's length' whether we believe the claims or not) in an area their policies have repeatedly made poor. I concur with the above posters. EGFF's decline was inevitable.

Total disagree.

[Sean North]

Total disagree.

So who do you blame for the economy of Bristol and the surrounding areas growing and attracting businesses, and then the South Wales economy that does neither?

[GROUNDHOG]

One massive advantage Bristol has over Cardiff, those of us that live West of the Tamar might drive to BRS but could drive to LHR in the time it takes to get to CWL. That is a lot of potential sales.

[runway30]

So who do you blame for the economy of Bristol and the surrounding areas growing and attracting businesses, and then the South Wales economy that does neither?
I have done some work on this because there is now a problem attracting passengers from Wales, who now prefer Bristol, to return to Cardiff but to do it through fair competition rather than subsidies to a publicly owned airport that Bristol rightly sees as unfair.
Incomes in Cardiff city and suburbs are sufficient for a high propensity to fly but the population isn’t that big.
The population of the Cardiff hinterland have low incomes and a low propensity to fly due to economic scarring. The old heavy industries had a short period of prosperity but were well past their best when Thatcher withdrew support.
What came next was an attempt to attract subsidy tarts, companies that moved around the world to attract the best subsidies but didn’t have much of their research and development here and could always be attracted away to the next good deal.
Money was spent on roads to support those industries either in decline or didn’t exist any more. A good public transport system that could have transported workers from areas in decline to good jobs elsewhere wasn’t developed until now. Much of the mistakes were made by the UK Government and not by the Welsh Government which had to deal with a poor model of devolution.
The answer to bring it back to Cardiff Airport is to raise the propensity to fly in the Cardiff hinterland and in the cities of Swansea and Newport, although any rising incomes in Newport is going to benefit Bristol equally with Cardiff.
To do this will take a radical overhaul of the support system for growing companies in Wales, providing premises, a trained workforce and cheap easy finance. If that sounds like the Wales Development Agency, that would probably be correct. It was abolished because politicians couldn’t control it but control by politicians is the last thing it needs.

[GROUNDHOG]

I have done some work on this because there is now a problem attracting passengers from Wales, who now prefer Bristol, to return to Cardiff but to do it through fair competition rather than subsidies to a publicly owned airport that Bristol rightly sees as unfair.
Incomes in Cardiff city and suburbs are sufficient for a high propensity to fly but the population isn’t that big.
The population of the Cardiff hinterland have low incomes and a low propensity to fly due to economic scarring. The old heavy industries had a short period of prosperity but were well past their best when Thatcher withdrew support.
What came next was an attempt to attract subsidy tarts, companies that moved around the world to attract the best subsidies but didn’t have much of their research and development here and could always be attracted away to the next good deal.
Money was spent on roads to support those industries either in decline or didn’t exist any more. A good public transport system that could have transported workers from areas in decline to good jobs elsewhere wasn’t developed until now. Much of the mistakes were made by the UK Government and not by the Welsh Government which had to deal with a poor model of devolution.
The answer to bring it back to Cardiff Airport is to raise the propensity to fly in the Cardiff hinterland and in the cities of Swansea and Newport, although any rising incomes in Newport is going to benefit Bristol equally with Cardiff.
To do this will take a radical overhaul of the support system for growing companies in Wales, providing premises, a trained workforce and cheap easy finance. If that sounds like the Wales Development Agency, that would probably be correct. It was abolished because politicians couldn’t control it but control by politicians is the last thing it needs.
Whoo would pay for that and why South Wales? Not too save the airport surely?

[pug]

What all of you ranting above seem to forget is that airlines will maintain services from an airport if it is financially viable to do so. Clearly airlines have decided that there is more money to be made elsewhere. Changing the management and stamping your feet will not change this simple truth.
In the summer leisure travel makes money for some operators less so in the winter. Domestic flying from most smaller airports is at best marginally profitable and at Cardiff less so.
You can all have wish lists as long as your arms and look for scapegoats, but that will not change the economic reality.

This 100% the truth.

Its tiresome reading various politicians and local authority executives championing the cause of under performing or failed regional airports as untapped sources of economic growth and stability. Airports are a reflection of the region they serve, they facilitate. They are not wider regional economic generators themselves until they have a critical mass (MAN, LHR etc), and it’s actually annoying to see justification for spending £millions of public money on such projects when the commercial realities are that they are unsustainable if following the same growth principles of the major players. They do have a future in connections to hubs (AMS, DUB), with some complimentary leisure destinations as far as the catchment areas can support, so long as they have mechanisms in place to cover their costs, or at least only rely on small public subsidies to allow them to continue to exist. Just don’t expect them to be able to compete on a level playing field with the ones nearby that have access to much larger catchment areas with more wealth within them.

[runway30]

Whoo would pay for that and why South Wales? Not too save the airport surely?

Good to hear from you Groundhog, I hope you are well.

The airport is the symptom not the illness. Raising incomes in South Wales would be to the benefit of the population, it is not something you would do just to save the airport.

There is already a Business Support budget that is spent by the Welsh Government, I am just saying that it isn’t effective in its current form. We have the Development Bank for Wales, we don’t yet know the effectiveness of that over the long term.

If we were being really radical we would have a Severnside Economic Zone which would straddle the political border with two successful airports. It was my thinking when I called for tolls to be removed from the Severn Bridges. However the politics of cross border co-operation seem just too difficult.

[FRatSTN]

It's an interesting one. On the one side there's some truth in that the airports reflect the economic wealth of the areas they serve, but that isn't entirely the case. There is a valued need for public money to support crucial connectivity in some regions, like the NQY-LON PSO route for instance, but not an entire airport operation beyond anything short to medium term where it doesn't add significant economic benefit.

That's largely why an airport like Doncaster Sheffield reached the end of the road because it offered no critical, wider economic purpose to justify throwing public money at it when other nearby airports at EMA, LBA and MAN can easily serve that demand.

Cardiff I feel is a little different as it does serve some important hub links that are crucial economic drivers, and there is, I believe, a large enough propensity to fly among it's catchment area to support a sustainable long term future, returned to the private sector. The issue unfortunately is you have public ownership come in to protect the airport from closure, but you then don't have the expertise, nor the funds, of a private investor to drive that sustainable growth of the airport through competitive and meaningful growth incentives. It's never going to be a big airport, but unfortunately CWL is stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment and that may only change once the wider economic picture picks up so that a private investor can unlock the potential that's there.

[highwideandugly]

Interesting observations?.however where does Teesside airport fit into the mix..when huge,massive amounts of tax payers money is being thrown at it?
Is it because the pm and local lord live next door to each other?
Or maybe we are all missing something else!

To me a capital city …deserves a little stay of execution ?

[SWBKCB]

There is something in the model of Teesside, Norwich etc - the business park with a runway in the middle. It's not all about passenger flights, and Cardiff already has the BA presence.

[caaardiff]

I'm not convinced by the propensity to fly argument for the reason CWL is failing. Pre-covid in 2019 CWL had 1.63 million passengers which was continually creeping up from the 1m passengers in 2014. 2019 was up 4.3 percent than 2018.

This is quite an interesting document created in 2020 by the Welsh Government, covering pre-covid numbers.

https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/statistics-and-research/2020-10/air-transport-2019-397.pdf

According to BRS masterplan created in 2017 20% of BRS passengers travel from South Wales of it's then 8m yearly passengers. That's around 1.6m passengers.
Currently BRS is nearing 10m passengers and if the 20% still stands that 2m Welsh people using BRS, if not more since Covid and CWL's decline.

The key for CWL is to win back those passengers from BRS, firstly starting with routes currently served from both Airports, then target new routes once momentum builds. And that is just when looking at BRS. There's still plenty of people from South Wales flying from Birmingham, Manchester and London that can be won back.
What CWL needs to the core scheduled routes to be at decent prices and good times to create that initial attraction to look at CWL when booking flights.

[pug]

I'm not convinced by the propensity to fly argument for the reason CWL is failing. Pre-covid in 2019 CWL had 1.63 million passengers which was continually creeping up from the 1m passengers in 2014. 2019 was up 4.3 percent than 2018.

This is quite an interesting document created in 2020 by the Welsh Government, covering pre-covid numbers.

https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/statistics-and-research/2020-10/air-transport-2019-397.pdf

According to BRS masterplan created in 2017 20% of BRS passengers travel from South Wales of it's then 8m yearly passengers. That's around 1.6m passengers.
Currently BRS is nearing 10m passengers and if the 20% still stands that 2m Welsh people using BRS, if not more since Covid and CWL's decline.

The key for CWL is to win back those passengers from BRS, firstly starting with routes currently served from both Airports, then target new routes once momentum builds. And that is just when looking at BRS. There's still plenty of people from South Wales flying from Birmingham, Manchester and London that can be won back.
What CWL needs to the core scheduled routes to be at decent prices and good times to create that initial attraction to look at CWL when booking flights.

This was what I was trying to get at in my last post, there might be 2mppa from South Wales using BRS, but there are 8mppa using BRS from other areas. So if you were an airline (and let’s face it, there aren’t many to choose from these days) where would you put your expensive assets and invest in a base?

CWL has its place, but why does that place have to be an airport flying millions of passengers to Tenerife and the Costas? Can it not build on what it’s already successful at and actually pay its own way without the public having to invest large amounts in facilities and subsidies that come to nothing?

[caaardiff]

This was what I was trying to get at in my last post, there might be 2mppa from South Wales using BRS, but there are 8mppa using BRS from other areas. So if you were an airline (and let’s face it, there aren’t many to choose from these days) where would you put your expensive assets and invest in a base?

CWL has its place, but why does that place have to be an airport flying millions of passengers to Tenerife and the Costas? Can it not build on what it’s already successful at and actually pay its own way without the public having to invest large amounts in facilities and subsidies that come to nothing?

There in lies the issue. There are only a certain number of airlines left that could base at CWL without diluting their own operation at BRS. Wizz was one of those candidates but completely messed that up.
For whatever reason FR, despite some level of expansion have not attempted to be bigger than they could be in competition with EZY. The one way they could compete with EZY is to dilute some of those passengers to CWL on the core popular routes, but that may dilute their own passengers.
The costas and Canaries is ultimately where people in South Wales want to go. They are tried and tested routes that should work. Attract those passengers back then it will peak peoples interest in using CWL more and in turn peak Airlines interest to offer more.

[Sean North]

CWL has its place, but why does that place have to be an airport flying millions of passengers to Tenerife and the Costas? Can it not build on what it’s already successful at and actually pay its own way without the public having to invest large amounts in facilities and subsidies that come to nothing?

Airports are labour-intensive operations and the aviation sector has decent salaries. Transporting millions of passengers to Tenerife and the Costas requires more workers than exclusively being a Broughton. Thousands of high paying job in South Wales is obviously a good thing and will support the poorer valley regions. By all means do both but don't dismiss the passenger side

[pug]

Airports are labour-intensive operations and the aviation sector has decent salaries. Transporting millions of passengers to Tenerife and the Costas requires more workers than exclusively being a Broughton. Thousands of high paying job in South Wales is obviously a good thing and will support the poorer valley regions. By all means do both but don't dismiss the passenger side


Im not sure what you mean, my point was that airlines aren’t particularly interested in serving CWL in any big way, mainly because they’re happy to consolidate their operations at BRS. So they shouldn’t be mindlessly pumping money into something that’s unlikely to be a success. By all means support the activity that’s already there, double down on KLM etc and the bucket and spade flights that do exist, but it’s not going to ever be a large airport for the reason I already outlined.

[cavokblues]

I wonder if the best hope Cardiff has is APD being devolved to the Welsh Parliament as it is for the Scottish and Northern Irish ones.

Until then, I'm not sure what else can change quickly enough to warrant much change in terms of new airlines etc.

[caaardiff]

I wonder if the best hope Cardiff has is APD being devolved to the Welsh Parliament as it is for the Scottish and Northern Irish ones.

Until then, I'm not sure what else can change quickly enough to warrant much change in terms of new airlines etc.
I don't think knocking a couple of quid off a holiday flight will make a huge difference, as there's also no guarantee the airline will take it off the fare.

A change of management is needed. From the outside it appears there's no drive or ambition to attract passengers back. I've no doubt CWL are working hard in the background to get airlines in, but there appears to be little evidence of strategic advertising and marketing ploys to get CWLs current routes noticed and fill the current flights.
It's almost as if CWL believe they got the airlines in, now it's up to the airlines to get the passengers through the door. It's in CWLs own interests to market flights as well.

[Markushillman]

There is something in the model of Teesside, Norwich etc - the business park with a runway in the middle. It's not all about passenger flights, and Cardiff already has the BA presence.

One thing Norwich has in common with Cardiff is certainly Ryanair and some silly flight times :ugh: But yes Norwich has Saxonair, East Anglia Air Ambulance Building, KLM Engineering, Air Livery and the proposal for an aviation business park to be built on the North side of the airport, and the oil and gas sector but of course that won't last forever, hence diversifying with all these other activities. Norwich is never going to be big in terms of pax numbers and with the arrival of Ryanair with their bucket and spade flights, along with TUI, Blue Islands, KLM and Loganair it's found its niche.

Obviously this thread isn't about Norwich but my point is perhaps Cardiff is at a niche for itself and may only ever have these bucket and spade flights as its main source of pax flights. And it needs to diversify into other aviation related business. Of course they have BA but perhaps they should look to other things to expand its activity.

[ZULUBOY]

Genuine question. Apologies if it has already been mentioned. Doss the airport lose money each year or is it making a profit?

[caaardiff]

Genuine question. Apologies if it has already been mentioned. Doss the airport lose money each year or is it making a profit?
I don't think it's made a profit in over 10 years. Up to around 2019 I think various Welsh government scrutiny meetings that were broadcast brought a lot of facts and projections out. Projections that on it's current path then they would return to profit I think around this year or next year. But then covid threw any of those plan out of the window.
It's a been a constant rollercoaster for the past 15 years with various ups and downs from it's peak in 2007/2008.

[ZULUBOY]

Thanks

[Sean North]

Im not sure what you mean, my point was that airlines aren’t particularly interested in serving CWL in any big way, mainly because they’re happy to consolidate their operations at BRS. So they shouldn’t be mindlessly pumping money into something that’s unlikely to be a success. By all means support the activity that’s already there, double down on KLM etc and the bucket and spade flights that do exist, but it’s not going to ever be a large airport for the reason I already outlined.

My point is Cardiff shouldn't focus specifically on a niche and be satisfied with that.

By no means should Cardiff try to become the next Bristol or Heathrow but there is room for over 2m annual passengers. The leakage - one thing that is seldomly mentioned in the obsessive propensity to fly debate - is over 2.5 passengers from South Wales. 2m passengers from Bristol start in South Wales and in 2010 there were 500k passengers using London airports for popular short haul routes. I certainly believe with the support and drive, 2m annual passengers is not far-fetched.

On top of that 2m passengers, there is room for expanded engineering facilities. BA is there but even BA is cutting back aircraft serviced there. More Welsh Govt support for aerospace engineering in Wales would be helpful. Cargo and other industries centred around the airport can also be expanded, for example, an aircraft paining operation could be set up

With a bigger aviation industry will come higher paying jobs... and more jobs overall. That is obviously a good thing.

[pug]

My point is Cardiff shouldn't focus specifically on a niche and be satisfied with that.

By no means should Cardiff try to become the next Bristol or Heathrow but there is room for over 2m annual passengers. The leakage - one thing that is seldomly mentioned in the obsessive propensity to fly debate - is over 2.5 passengers from South Wales. 2m passengers from Bristol start in South Wales and in 2010 there were 500k passengers using London airports for popular short haul routes. I certainly believe with the support and drive, 2m annual passengers is not far-fetched.

On top of that 2m passengers, there is room for expanded engineering facilities. BA is there but even BA is cutting back aircraft serviced there. More Welsh Govt support for aerospace engineering in Wales would be helpful. Cargo and other industries centred around the airport can also be expanded, for example, an aircraft paining operation could be set up

With a bigger aviation industry will come higher paying jobs... and more jobs overall. That is obviously a good thing.

If the airlines aren’t interested your efforts are wasted! Thats the whole point in trying to make. Same applies to MRO facilities, you state that BA are reducing use of their own facility there, I don’t know whether that is the case or not, but it would appear there is no appetite for it. That is why CWL must double down on what it does well so it can survive and possibly look to grow in future should operating conditions permit.

I think this point is lost on some, but there are far less airlines in operation in the U.K. now than there were 20 years ago. Since the financial crash of 2007/08 it has been consolidation all the way. The smaller airports have lost out to this with a growing focus of centralising assets on one larger regional airport.

If those 2.5 million passengers are flying from other airports, and 2 million of those are flying from BRS (as suggested further up the page), then that would suggest as a crude estimate that 20% of the passengers on a given flight from BRS are from the South Wales region. Why would they duplicate this at Cardiff and split their loads and decimate their yields whilst doubling their costs over night?

Bmibaby did ok but they were wrapped up a long time ago, same again for Flybe and same happened there. Wizzair UK didn’t stick around that long. It’s all telling, meanwhile easyjet, Ryanair and Jet2 keep building their presence at BRS.

[caaardiff]

What's the setup at St Athan? If I remember correctly the WG don't own it, but Cardiff Airport operates it? That would surely bring in some income

[LTNman]

Cardiff Airport continuing to make losses https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-68294274

[Letsflycwl]

Eastern Airways are switching both EMA & SOU routes from ORY to CDG as of end of March.

No mention or reference to them switching the CWL service to CDG. ORY due to end at this time too.

Come on CWL, what on earth are you doing to secure this route? CDG is definitely needed as much better for connections and a better airport full stop to ORY.

Ideally I’d love AF to serve the route but until then Eastern was/is CWL only hope.

I wonder if something is happening behind the scenes between CWL, T3 & AF or is this another nail in the CWL coffin??

[SKOJB]

Eastern Airways are switching both EMA & SOU routes from ORY to CDG as of end of March.

No mention or reference to them switching the CWL service to CDG. ORY due to end at this time too.

Come on CWL, what on earth are you doing to secure this route? CDG is definitely needed as much better for connections and a better airport full stop to ORY.

Ideally I’d love AF to serve the route but until then Eastern was/is CWL only hope.

I wonder if something is happening behind the scenes between CWL, T3 & AF or is this another nail in the CWL coffin??

The fact that nothing is on sale after end March leads you to believe Paris is ending, however I hope for CWL sake this is not the case

[runway30]

Eastern Airways are switching both EMA & SOU routes from ORY to CDG as of end of March.

No mention or reference to them switching the CWL service to CDG. ORY due to end at this time too.

Come on CWL, what on earth are you doing to secure this route? CDG is definitely needed as much better for connections and a better airport full stop to ORY.

Ideally I’d love AF to serve the route but until then Eastern was/is CWL only hope.

I wonder if something is happening behind the scenes between CWL, T3 & AF or is this another nail in the CWL coffin??

AF has never wanted to compete for transfer traffic with KLM on Amsterdam. On the other hand KLM have reduced their frequency to Amsterdam, perhaps in anticipation of losing passengers to CDG. You can take your pick but with CWL at the moment my view would be pessimistic rather than optimistic.

[SKOJB]

AF has never wanted to compete for transfer traffic with KLM on Amsterdam. On the other hand KLM have reduced their frequency to Amsterdam, perhaps in anticipation of losing passengers to CDG. You can take your pick but with CWL at the moment my view would be pessimistic rather than optimistic.

In which case that doesn’t make sense as SOU has an additional KLM daily on the way and CDG just added

[Letsflycwl]

AF has never wanted to compete for transfer traffic with KLM on Amsterdam. On the other hand KLM have reduced their frequency to Amsterdam, perhaps in anticipation of losing passengers to CDG. You can take your pick but with CWL at the moment my view would be pessimistic rather than optimistic.

My thoughts exactly…..with KL reducing x1 flight a day for S24, could we actually see AF doing a CDG to compensate as part of the AF/KL alliance in a bid to keep the passengers?

Unless the negotiations are still ongoing with T3 (on behalf of AF as per ORY was).

We can’t afford to loose another route !!!

[davidjohnson6]

CAA stats for December 2023 on the route to Paris Orly:
Cardiff - 1,115 pax
East Midlands - 1,808 pax
Southampton - 1,871 pax

CWL saw 29 round trips in Dec-2023, while EMA and SOU each saw 30 round trips. Thus average pax load per one way flight is
Cardiff - 19 pax
East Midlands - 30 pax
Southampton - 31 pax

Aircraft on all 3 routes was (generally) a 72 seat ATR

As a comparison:
Bristol - Orly saw 11,250 pax and Bristol - CDG saw 27,159 pax (both are flown solely by Easyjet)
Cardiff - Amsterdam saw 9,642 pax and Southampton - Amsterdam saw 6,502 pax

I know load factors without yields tell only part of the story... but I think this is enough of the story to draw basic conclusions

[Markushillman]

Credit to @SeanM1997 on X

But he confirms the Paris route is gone from the end of March

[caaardiff]

CAA stats for December 2023 on the route to Paris Orly:
Cardiff - 1,115 pax
East Midlands - 1,808 pax
Southampton - 1,871 pax

CWL saw 29 round trips in Dec-2023, while EMA and SOU each saw 30 round trips. Thus average pax load per one way flight is
Cardiff - 19 pax
East Midlands - 30 pax
Southampton - 31 pax

Aircraft on all 3 routes was (generally) a 72 seat ATR

As a comparison:
Bristol - Orly saw 11,250 pax and Bristol - CDG saw 27,159 pax (both are flown solely by Easyjet)
Cardiff - Amsterdam saw 9,642 pax and Southampton - Amsterdam saw 6,502 pax

I know load factors without yields tell only part of the story... but I think this is enough of the story to draw basic conclusions

Something is seriously wrong when you look at those figures. CWL carrying just 10% of what EZY ORY carried, without even considering the CDG numbers. CWL just needed 800 more passengers to have carried more than SOU and EMA. I don't recall Easterns prices being too cheap either so the yield wouldn't have been part of the reason.

Go back to Dec 2019 and BE carried 4179 passengers, so the potential is there, just being lost to other Airports. In 2019 overall 71,000 people used CDG.
Eastern were never going to be the exact answer, but they could've performed better on the route. There was next to no advertising and Eastern aren't known for being cheap.

AMS is still a mystery when CWL carried more passengers than similar sized Airports that maintain their 3x daily departures.

[The Ex Flyer]

One of the issues with CWL- ORY-CWL, is the wrong timings. There are no flights on Saturdays or they get cancelled, and Mon-Fri who would want to fly to Paris dept CWL at 15.40 arr in ORY at 18.30? Weekend breaks needs Sat morning departures. Business travel or connecting flights need earlier departures out of CWL and more frequent. Plus 1 hour 50 min flight time on a turboprop when from BRS you can hop on a jet, better frequency, better timings and fares. Almost set up to fail.

[fanrailuk]

One of the issues with CWL- ORY-CWL, is the wrong timings. There are no flights on Saturdays or they get cancelled, and Mon-Fri who would want to fly to Paris dept CWL at 15.40 arr in ORY at 18.30? Weekend breaks needs Sat morning departures. Business travel or connecting flights need earlier departures out of CWL and more frequent. Plus 1 hour 50 min flight time on a turboprop when from BRS you can hop on a jet, better frequency, better timings and fares. Almost set up to fail.


…do you know davidjohnson6 by chance?

[Letsflycwl]

Could we be seeing Eastern start CWL-CDG sometime soon in the future ?? Eastern have referenced CWL flights in the Travel Weekly as ceasing Paris flights in the “short term” from CWL as only obtaining slots (so far) for EMA & SOU. The link in on the Eastern thread.

“Eastern Airways is has secured rare slots at Paris Charles de Gaulle airport to enable two UK regional links to switch from Paris Orly.

The move will enable the airline to connect to Europe’s third busiest airport from both East Midlands and Southampton with services operated in partnership with Air France.

But a Cardiff-Paris Orly service will cease “in the short-term” as only two take off and landing slot were freed for Eastern at Charles de Gaulle”.

[CWL757]

Could we be seeing Eastern start CWL-CDG sometime soon in the future ?? Eastern have referenced CWL flights in the Travel Weekly as ceasing Paris flights in the “short term” from CWL as only obtaining slots (so far) for EMA & SOU.
It'd be nice to think it's just temporary, but to me it seems more of a way of softening the blow of saying its been axed, with the old "It's not our fault " Hope im wrong though.

[Sean North]

NEW PRESS RELEASE. Things are looking up

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1600/cardiff_bb6e71053b0072aea8c43d48bb7462b08b62696b.jpg

[Sotonsean]

Surely, the article should have stated the flight being once a week flight rather than daily?

It's not daily, is it?

If not, it's a huge error on behalf of TUI.

It's great for Cardiff to see a long anticipated resumption of service to Malta.

[MARKEYD]

You need to look at the date mate
Cant say it’s that funny though to be honest !!

[Sotonsean]

You need to look at the date mate
Cant say it’s that funny though to be honest !!

I had completely overlooked the date. For someone who doesn't indulge in such stuff, I hadn't given it a second thought.

That's the second time I've been "stung" here on pprune today. I'll make sure there's not a third time 🙂

[Sean North]

I was going to write about an airline axing a service at Cardiff but decided that was far too believable and realistic

[jensdad]

You need to look at the date mate
Cant say it’s that funny though to be honest !!
Agreed. It's not exactly up there with BBC Nationwide's Spaghetti trees is it? :)

[TOM100]

Rigby (RCA) have shown at BOH, EXT and NWI what progressive and focused management can achieve in the post pandemic climate at small regional airports and Itheir aviation division makes a profit (albeit small at just under £3m in 2023). They have got Jet2 at BOH, growth at the other 2 airports. Again, I ask the WG to have a really hard look at the stagnant management team at CWL and show they want our national airport to thrive - it is possible with this kind of catchment and climate to grow but CWL just seems stuck in a big commercial rut. Something clearly isn’t working - I believe there is demand and TUI currently have a very nice commercial monopoly and can no doubt flex their yields nicely with their 3 a/c base. The airport can’t carry on as is and expect a different outcome.

i know this is an old debate but I don’t see anything changing and it is very frustrating. Who is holding the fire/burning platform under the management who must be very comfortable.

[caaardiff]

Rigby (RCA) have shown at BOH, EXT and NWI what progressive and focused management can achieve in the post pandemic climate at small regional airports and Itheir aviation division makes a profit (albeit small at just under £3m in 2023). They have got Jet2 at BOH, growth at the other 2 airports. Again, I ask the WG to have a really hard look at the stagnant management team at CWL and show they want our national airport to thrive - it is possible with this kind of catchment and climate to grow but CWL just seems stuck in a big commercial rut. Something clearly isn’t working - I believe there is demand and TUI currently have a very nice commercial monopoly and can no doubt flex their yields nicely with their 3 a/c base. The airport can’t carry on as is and expect a different outcome.

i know this is an old debate but I don’t see anything changing and it is very frustrating. Who is holding the fire/burning platform under the management who must be very comfortable.

Questions do need to be asked why CWL is falling behind other Airports. But at the same time, are you completely forgetting that CWLs management in recent years have got Qatar Airways in, Wizz in, Loganair in to replace flybe to Edinburgh, Aer Lingus in to replace Flybe to Belfast, continued growth from TUI each year and continued growth from Ryanair?

Shouldn't those questions also be posed to Airlines? Historic demand has been there, why don't they think it's there now?

[TOM100]

Agreed, there have been some wins but where is the sustained growth and re-growth that is being experienced at nearly every other UK airport (SEN springs to mind as an exception - another example of poor management and ownership) ? Yes, I agree that airlines have to step up but what are the other airports doing that is seeing them grow whilst Cardiff”s numbers are in decline ? CWL arguably has a bigger catchment, more benign ownership model (than say, BOH, EXT) and cannot sustain growth. I am just pointing out it’s like Einsteins parable of quantum insanity to keep doing the same things and expecting different results.

Wizz failed (airline performance shambolic admittedly), CWL is only UK airport QR have not returned to, VY stagnant with lower flights than pre pandemic, TUI stagnant and a monopoly, KL down to 2 flights a day, Paris dropped, EDI numbers down, FR growth yes, but not spectacular - it’s not a great record and it should be better with air traffic demand now back to pre pandemic levels and growing and reportedly good LFs ex CWL obviously yield dependant. This airport is capable and has handled 2m plus pax a year - now it is less than 1m. Something is not working. Yes we can look to airlines, but other airports are growing with the same macro background - why ?

2 airports can be successful side by side like CWL/BRS - see EMA/BHX or GLA/EDI.

i hope the WG are talking or have talked to RCA who offer a management service but keeps the ownership in Welsh hands. I want this airport to thrive - I just think there needs to be change, it’s a great facility.

[GROUNDHOG]

Rule number one
When things are not as good as we want them to be blame the management, it is always down to them, never mind the extenuating circumstances that surround the difficulties they face.

[TOM100]

That’s my point - these are the same extenuating circumstances that would be affecting every other UK airport - what is different at Cardiff ? In fact at the moment you could argue that the extenuating circumstances affecting aviation right now are positive - increased demand for vacations (despite the cost of living crisis) ; confirmed by multiple tour operators, air traffic expected to increase above pre-pandemic levels etc You might think against this background a business in the sector would be growing (as most others are) not declining…….

BTW - I want the airport to work, I use it once or twice a month (or I did until the 6am KL flight stopped) - I am just stating some facts.

[caaardiff]

That’s my point - these are the same extenuating circumstances that would be affecting every other UK airport - what is different at Cardiff ? In fact at the moment you could argue that the extenuating circumstances affecting aviation right now are positive - increased demand for vacations (despite the cost of living crisis) ; confirmed by multiple tour operators, air traffic expected to increase above pre-pandemic levels etc You might think against this background a business in the sector would be growing (as most others are) not declining…….

All very valid points. CWL has not recovered as well as many other Airports. BRS has been one of the best to recover and is now over pre-pandemic passenger numbers.
What does that tell you? A large chunk of those 10m passengers are probably coming from Wales.

How do you convince Airlines to try and win those using BRS to use CWL again? What exactly can the management do?
It's a shame Wizz didn't mess up their launch, as things might be very different with a based low-cost carrier than doesn't have links to BRS.
CWL's last option of anything like that is FR. It will be interesting to see what happens with their schedule after this summer.

CWL seriously needs to look at it's marketing. Over recent years it's been dire. Social Media is a free platform to advertise, and CWL should also be investing in other marketing. It's not just down to Airlines to market their flights.

[YVRscot]

Social Media is a free platform to advertise, and CWL should also be investing in other marketing. It's not just down to Airlines to market their flights.

Sorry to be pedantic. Social media is certainly not free to advertise. It may be free to reach up to 20% of your followers. (Cardiff Airport has around 35,000 followers) So a post may be seen by up to 7,000 of people who are already interested.
To reach "new people" on Facebook and Instagram you need to spend on advertising. This can be remarkably low cost but it still needs objectives, a plan and a budget. I'm afraid that a few random posts won't cut it.

[TOM100]

Carrrdiff - Well you just gave one example of what management can do - what did the management at BOH and EXT do ? What did LPL do ? Same airlines, same competitive industry with nearby airports. That’s my point again other smaller regional airports are being successful and they don’t have such benign owners (their owners are looking for returns).

[SWBKCB]

Rule number one
When things are not as good as we want them to be blame the management, it is always down to them, never mind the extenuating circumstances that surround the difficulties they face.

Absolutely - the easy option.

But look at TOM - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL, RYR - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL. What does that tell you? Maybe there is somenthing more fundamentally wrong than the social media strategy etc. Local economy, small/restricted catchement area, etc

[YVRscot]

Absolutely - the easy option.

But look at TOM - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL, RYR - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL. What does that tell you? Maybe there is somenthing more fundamentally wrong than the social media strategy etc. Local economy, small/restricted catchement area, etc

If they aren't marketing (including spending), on Facebook or elsewhere, that suggests that their hands are tied. No budget? Spending cutbacks? Sounds like PIK - owned by the Scottish Government. Is there a pattern?

[TOM100]

Absolutely - the easy option.

But look at TOM - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL, RYR - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL. What does that tell you? Maybe there is somenthing more fundamentally wrong than the social media strategy etc. Local economy, small/restricted catchement area, etc

Small restricted catchment area - same for some other regional airports (who see growth) and the area is larger now than when the airport handled 2m plus pax a year.

Local economy - ditto above (not saying CWL will ever be on a scale of the neighbour) and again, more businesses, financial services etc in the area than 10 years ago.

Something is wrong that the airport is going backwards in terms of pax numbers. Last years pax numbers were lower than 30 years ago :( The local economy is in far better shape than in 1994 -Welsh GDP significantly higher, however you spin it; airline bad luck, competition, local economy, it should be doing better. Any other failing business (or at least underperforming);shareholders would be asking serious questions of the management - that’s their job.

[MidlandsWanderer]

I can tell you exactly what the likes of Rigby and LPL do, they talk to airlines. To be more specific they don't just talk to airlines, they present well-researched business cases with facts that can be backed up. They tell you what businesses are travelling and where to and how often and sometimes even what they are currently paying to go via points a/b/c. Then they offer you a good proposition to help with the start-up phase of operations. It's a fairly well-worn, successful formula but it needs a substantial amount of focussed legwork by the airport.

[GROUNDHOG]

The purpose of marketing an airport is to attract its customers. The customers of an airport are the airlines that may be attracted to use it not the passengers. It is for the airlines to attract the passengers. Airlines will put their business where they feel they can make the most profit or attract the biggest opportunity to do so. Cardiff is and always has been marginally located with poor access and that has not changed since my days arranging flights from there over 40 years ago. There are many airfields that are making good profits and if Cardiff wants to improve in this regard the best way is to attract other businesses that contribute to the bottom line in ways other than passenger flights. 25 years ago I was managing director of an airline based at Cardiff, although I have been retired ever since the problems seem exactly the same today as they did then and I don't see any signs of them changing.

[TOM100]

I can tell you exactly what the likes of Rigby and LPL do, they talk to airlines. To be more specific they don't just talk to airlines, they present well-researched business cases with facts that can be backed up. They tell you what businesses are travelling and where to and how often and sometimes even what they are currently paying to go via points a/b/c. Then they offer you a good proposition to help with the start-up phase of operations. It's a fairly well-worn, successful formula but it needs a substantial amount of focussed legwork by the airport.

Exactly, so already, a couple of areas identified that management can do to influence outcomes. Not saying Cardiff not attempting to do any of these things but obviously they’re not proving to be very good at it.

Not saying there are not challenges (access, location, competition etc) but they were all there with 2m plus pax through the doors. Yes, the world has changed and so that means the approach needs to change too. We should be seeing higher numbers than in 1994 - period.

[pug]

Exactly, so already, a couple of areas identified that management can do to influence outcomes. Not saying Cardiff not attempting to do any of these things but obviously they’re not proving to be very good at it.

Not saying there are not challenges (access, location, competition etc) but they were all there with 2m plus pax through the doors. Yes, the world has changed and so that means the approach needs to change too. We should be seeing higher numbers than in 1994 - period.

Youre comparing to a time when there were far more airlines around. When CWL had Bmibaby as a base, they no longer exist. Flybe gone, Thomas Cook gone, go further back and recall all the tour operators that would have filled aircraft to all sorts of Med destinations and beyond without even having to base an aircraft. All gone!

Whilst the overall market has grown, it’s done so with fewer airlines who pool their resources at a limited number of airports to maximise profit and minimise overheads as much as possible. CWL is as much a victim of this as many other regional airports whose location doesn’t lend itself to volume so much as the competition.

I don’t know what you expect ‘management’ to do about this? They’re clearly trying, as evidenced by the recent Wizzair base that lasted all of 5 minutes, and Flybe before that with their loss leading e-jet operation.

Jet2 went in to Bournemouth because it’s the last unserved part of the U.K. and they can’t get in to LGW in any sizeable way. You cannot compare the plight of CWL with the success of LPL and BOH. Don’t forget that SOU has lost out to the news too…

[TOM100]

Youre comparing to a time when there were far more airlines around. When CWL had Bmibaby as a base, they no longer exist. Flybe gone, Thomas Cook gone, go further back and recall all the tour operators that would have filled aircraft to all sorts of Med destinations and beyond without even having to base an aircraft. All gone!

Whilst the overall market has grown, it’s done so with fewer airlines who pool their resources at a limited number of airports to maximise profit and minimise overheads as much as possible. CWL is as much a victim of this as many other regional airports whose location doesn’t lend itself to volume so much as the competition.

I don’t know what you expect ‘management’ to do about this? They’re clearly trying, as evidenced by the recent Wizzair base that lasted all of 5 minutes, and Flybe before that with their loss leading e-jet operation.

Jet2 went in to Bournemouth because it’s the last unserved part of the U.K. and they can’t get in to LGW in any sizeable way. You cannot compare the plight of CWL with the success of LPL and BOH. Don’t forget that SOU has lost out to the news too…

Agree but all that poor fortune and airlines demise did not only affect CWL. SOU is still carrying more pax than it did in 1990’s and with a short restricted runway and limited opening hours, parking - none of which affect CWL. BOH was likely to overtake CWL even before LS.

What o o I expect management to do? Better tbh and in my opinion. When did you last hear from their Chatman, Wayne ? Roger Lewis (previous) was frequently in the press talking up the airport, leading negotiations with QR etc. I am not saying they are not ‘trying’ just they haven’t been very successful at it vis a vis other airports (the stats tell you this) and maybe somebody else could make a better shot at it.

obviously a lot of people think they are doing a sterling job at this and they are just a victim of circumstance - I’m just glad I don’t run my business in the same way.

Point I was making about 2m+ pax is that people will use the place.

[pug]

Agree but all that poor fortune and airlines demise did not only affect CWL. SOU is still carrying more pax than it did in 1990’s and with a short restricted runway and limited opening hours, parking - none of which affect CWL. BOH was likely to overtake CWL even before LS.

What o o I expect management to do? Better tbh and in my opinion. When did you last hear from their Chatman, Wayne ? Roger Lewis (previous) was frequently in the press talking up the airport, leading negotiations with QR etc. I am not saying they are not ‘trying’ just they haven’t been very successful at it vis a vis other airports (the stats tell you this) and maybe somebody else could make a better shot at it.

obviously a lot of people think they are doing a sterling job at this and they are just a victim of circumstance - I’m just glad I don’t run my business in the same way.

Point I was making about 2m+ pax is that people will use the place.

No it didn’t only affect CWL, I made that very point in my last post. MME was handling just shy of 1mppa at its peak, it’s now at around 25% peak value. HUY almost 600,000 and now lucky if it passes 150,000. Some airports have now gone because they couldn’t sustain operations after the low cost boom matured and got comfortable in its main operating bases.

SOU is operating way below peak value after Flybe went to the wall. It’s picking up some easyjet traffic but it won’t be enough at the moment to recover its momentum.

CWL hasn’t got Easyjet, Jet2 or significant Ryanair ops because they all fly from BRS which is nearby. So even though it did at one time handle 2mppa it won’t now because there are not the number of airlines there were to go around. So again, I ask you what you think ‘management’ should be doing about it? It’s fine saying to offer route incentives but if they’ve already been offered and the routes don’t last, how do you justify a continued spend on something that continues to fail? Diversification of aviation revenue is key, as alluded to by another member unthread.

[TOM100]

No it didn’t only affect CWL, I made that very point in my last post. MME was handling just shy of 1mppa at its peak, it’s now at around 25% peak value. HUY almost 600,000 and now lucky if it passes 150,000. Some airports have now gone because they couldn’t sustain operations after the low cost boom matured and got comfortable in its main operating bases.

SOU is operating way below peak value after Flybe went to the wall. It’s picking up some easyjet traffic but it won’t be enough at the moment to recover its momentum.

CWL hasn’t got Easyjet, Jet2 or significant Ryanair ops because they all fly from BRS which is nearby. So even though it did at one time handle 2mppa it won’t now because there are not the number of airlines there were to go around. So again, I ask you what you think ‘management’ should be doing about it? It’s fine saying to offer route incentives but if they’ve already been offered and the routes don’t last, how do you justify a continued spend on something that continues to fail? Diversification of aviation revenue is key, as alluded to by another member unthread.

I respectfully don’t agree with all your points and don’t think HuY and MME are great comparisons. I am sure we will not agree.

CWL has survived as a result of the Welsh taxpayer, which I agree with - Wales should have a national airport.

But taking your point about diversification- can you tell me what success the current team has had since the pandemic in non aviation revenue or what is on the horizon or what the current strategy is ?

The number of airlines is not relevant - those that remain are bigger and as I pointed out this impacts every other airport as does competition.

if 2m were prepared to use the airport before why wouldn’t they again ?

[caaardiff]

Absolutely - the easy option.
But look at TOM - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL, RYR - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL. What does that tell you? Maybe there is somenthing more fundamentally wrong than the social media strategy etc. Local economy, small/restricted catchement area, etc

TOM is up to 3 based summer aircraft, some W patterns and using other carriers. They have filled the gap left by TCX, so i'd say that is expansion.
Ryanair are now operating DUB, AGP, ALC and TFS, with the latter two starting this summer. Not exactly huge expansion, but still expansion. FR swap capacity around all the time. If these routes make money then hopefully there will be more from them to replace the lost Wizz capacity.


Carrrdiff - Well you just gave one example of what management can do - what did the management at BOH and EXT do ? What did LPL do ? Same airlines, same competitive industry with nearby airports. That’s my point again other smaller regional airports are being successful and they don’t have such benign owners (their owners are looking for returns).

They negotiated. I'm not sure what your point regarding EXT is alluding too, as TOM have a much bigger operation at CWL than EXT.
CWL have been trying to get Jet2 in for years. There is a slight overlap in catchment of BOH and BRS, where BRS pretty much caters for the whole South Wales market. If you were an Airline manager, which would you pick?
The same goes for LPL, much bigger catchment.

​​​​​​​
I can tell you exactly what the likes of Rigby and LPL do, they talk to airlines. To be more specific they don't just talk to airlines, they present well-researched business cases with facts that can be backed up. They tell you what businesses are travelling and where to and how often and sometimes even what they are currently paying to go via points a/b/c. Then they offer you a good proposition to help with the start-up phase of operations. It's a fairly well-worn, successful formula but it needs a substantial amount of focussed legwork by the airport.
Surely this is exactly what CWL did to get Vueling, Qatar, Flybe and Wizz in? They effectively paid Flybe to fly from CWL to eradicate the hefty cost of the E95's. Vueling had a huge 10 year marketing budget. What happened when that 10 years was up? Start to see VY cut flights.
CWL is under a lot of scrutiny of it's spending as it's Welsh Government owned, so I doubt as much money is there as would be from private owners.

​​​​​​​
The purpose of marketing an airport is to attract its customers. The customers of an airport are the airlines that may be attracted to use it not the passengers. It is for the airlines to attract the passengers. Airlines will put their business where they feel they can make the most profit or attract the biggest opportunity to do so.

Tosh. It's in the Airports own interest to get passengers through the door. How often do you see adverts from Ryanair? They almost market themselves just in name because of their popularity. The marketing that's needed is for people to know they fly from Cardiff, which many probably don't.
There's a Facebook Cardiff Flights and Deals page that has over 50k followers, 20k more than CWL's own page and regularly posts flights and deals which get many likes, and tags, and tags of tags. That's how word spreads, and it's pretty much free.


The issue isn't that the demand isn't there. The issue is that many of that demand choose BRS as their primary choice, even when those destinations are available from CWL.
Pre-pandemic that was changing and things were on the up. 1.6m annual passengers if i remember correctly.

You can throw as much money at Airlines as you like, but when you're left with a much smaller pool of Airlines to choose from, many of which already have commitments at BRS, it isn't going to be easy. BRS is a much bigger catchment, and if Airlines know Welsh people will travel to BRS, why dilute that? It will be a huge struggle to convince Airlines otherwise. To convince FR of that, it's going to mean bums on seats of the flights they do currently offer.

There's probably a lot of background work going on. But CWL has been very quiet of late, there needs to be a lot more open discussion, marketing and engagement with passengers going on to get things back to pre-pandemic levels and hopefully top 2m again. FR is probably the last option to help with that.

[pug]

I respectfully don’t agree with all your points and don’t think HuY and MME are great comparisons. I am sure we will not agree.

CWL has survived as a result of the Welsh taxpayer, which I agree with - Wales should have a national airport.

But taking your point about diversification- can you tell me what success the current team has had since the pandemic in non aviation revenue or what is on the horizon or what the current strategy is ?

The number of airlines is not relevant - those that remain are bigger and as I pointed out this impacts every other airport as does competition.

if 2m were prepared to use the airport before why wouldn’t they again ?

Why are HUY, NME and let’s not forget SOU (which you now neglect to mention) poor comparisons? SEN too?

How is the number of airlines not relevant? It is directly relevant and is why all examples I’ve just provided have lost market share to other airports. Why? Because most airlines have chosen to consolidate at fewer, larger departure points. That is why, even though more passengers are travelling now than 20 years ago, they’re flying with a smaller number of airlines and those airlines have chosen not to fly from CWL but BRS and cannot justify flying from both.

You can of course choose to disagree if you wish, but I’m offering empirical evidence and you appear stuck in a mindset not fitting of today’s operating environment. I suggest to you therefore that what CWL needs in order to grow in the way you appear to be championing, is new airlines entering the U.K. market, not a better management team at the airport.

[TOM100]

Why are HUY, NME and let’s not forget SOU (which you now neglect to mention) poor comparisons? SEN too?

How is the number of airlines not relevant? It is directly relevant and is why all examples I’ve just provided have lost market share to other airports. Why? Because most airlines have chosen to consolidate at fewer, larger departure points. That is why, even though more passengers are travelling now than 20 years ago, they’re flying with a smaller number of airlines and those airlines have chosen not to fly from CWL but BRS and cannot justify flying from both.

You can of course choose to disagree if you wish, but I’m offering empirical evidence and you appear stuck in a mindset not fitting of today’s operating environment. I suggest to you therefore that what CWL needs in order to grow in the way you appear to be championing, is new airlines entering the U.K. market, not a better management team at the airport.

I don’t see HUY or MME as being so relevant as they have never really been of a size (pax wise) comparable to CWL. I made some points about SOU and SEN in earlier posts.

So, if I follow your train of thought through - the large airlines have chosen BRS and won’t operate at CWL and I don’t see new entrants into the UK market, then the aviation related business of CWL looks pretty bleak. I don’t see how non aviation businesses can make the airport a viable going concern.

i am going to bow out of the discussion as it would seem a lot of people feel management and leadership are entirely passive to the aviation part of this business. I take a different view as a customer of the airport and a taxpayer would like to see change and more transparent communication about a recovery business plan - whether that be aviation or non aviation growth. At the moment I see nothing and would like to see more than the maintenance of the status quo.

[ATNotts]

I don’t see HUY or MME as being so relevant as they have never really been of a size (pax wise) comparable to CWL. I made some points about SOU and SEN in earlier posts.

So, if I follow your train of thought through - the large airlines have chosen BRS and won’t operate at CWL and I don’t see new entrants into the UK market, then the aviation related business of CWL looks pretty bleak. I don’t see how non aviation businesses can make the airport a viable going concern.
.

I think in your 2nd paragraph you have hit the nail firmly on the head. The clustering of airlines around particular larger airport is a fact. Airports such as Cardiff are going to struggle to attract large new based fleets. Managements can offer incentives galore but if airlines can't see a path to increasing market share and more importantly profit they aren't going to bite.

I absolutely get that Wales wants its capital to have a thriving airport but it isn't always possible. Take Bratislava as an example, overshadowed by Vienna, or Ljubljana neither of which enjoy enormously successful airports.

Best hope is for Cardiff to develop a niche for itself over and above passenger traffic. There is already the BA maintenance facility. Perhaps cargo could also be attracted, the freight sector isn't served by BRS to any degree.

[pug]

I don’t see HUY or MME as being so relevant as they have never really been of a size (pax wise) comparable to CWL. I made some points about SOU and SEN in earlier posts.

So, if I follow your train of thought through - the large airlines have chosen BRS and won’t operate at CWL and I don’t see new entrants into the UK market, then the aviation related business of CWL looks pretty bleak. I don’t see how non aviation businesses can make the airport a viable going concern.

i am going to bow out of the discussion as it would seem a lot of people feel management and leadership are entirely passive to the aviation part of this business. I take a different view as a customer of the airport and a taxpayer would like to see change and more transparent communication about a recovery business plan - whether that be aviation or non aviation growth. At the moment I see nothing and would like to see more than the maintenance of the status quo.

The reason I used them as an example is that they all have over 1 million people within a 60 minute drive of the airport, had a lot more flights than they do now and ultimately lost market share to competitors when airlines consolidated at larger departure points. It is therefore directly relevant. The BRS CWL is not a level playing field, the airlines prefer to risk new routes from BRS because it can pull from a larger catchment area which includes South Wales. Therefore ATNotts conclusion is correct.

That is why I can’t see how you conclude that the management are passive. You can’t attract business that doesn’t exist! I agree though, you have every right to question them as a tax payer, but they may find that other aviation revenue is needed and they can double down on the routes that are currently successful like the KLM.

[shlamps]

Surely the economy and supply & demand play a bigger part in CWLs fortunes rather than the management or WG? Do we honestly think the management and WG want to run it into the ground to do themselves out of jobs and lose millions in investment on purpose?

As much as I want to see CWL thrive, we have the be realistic. Airlines are businesses and will invest where they can make money. At the moment there is obviously no confidence in the South Wales economy so they won’t take the risk.

if you owned a thriving shop in one location, would you open another where you may or may not make money just for the convenience of a small minority who will travel to your thriving shop anyway? I wouldn’t until I had the confidence and research that both would thrive.

[SealinkBF]

Absolutely - the easy option.

But look at TOM - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL, RYR - expanding elsewhere but not at CWL. What does that tell you? Maybe there is somenthing more fundamentally wrong than the social media strategy etc. Local economy, small/restricted catchement area, etc

I don't think it's all down to the airports social media.

All airlines use social media really well, maybe CWL just isn't offering the same deals as other airports.

[GROUNDHOG]

Surely the economy and supply & demand play a bigger part in CWLs fortunes rather than the management or WG? Do we honestly think the management and WG want to run it into the ground to do themselves out of jobs and lose millions in investment on purpose?

As much as I want to see CWL thrive, we have the be realistic. Airlines are businesses and will invest where they can make money. At the moment there is obviously no confidence in the South Wales economy so they won’t take the risk.

if you owned a thriving shop in one location, would you open another where you may or may not make money just for the convenience of a small minority who will travel to your thriving shop? I wouldn’t until I had the confidence and research that both would thrive.
Well put
I would love to see CWL as a major airport with a regular connection to NQY I could then fly to YVR as I do often without the trek to London. The area just can't sustain that.

[caaardiff]

I don't think it's all down to the airports social media.

All airlines use social media really well, maybe CWL just isn't offering the same deals as other airports.

TUI's flights are mostly going out full. Obviously that is never a sign that the yields are working, but when you combine that with everyones perception that CWL is always more expensive (side note - its not). Then it seems TUI must be making good money but aren't confident they can expand enough without diluting yields even more.
As for Vueling, Ryanair etc. Who knows? Posts on various forums about load factors are showing positive signs though.

[shamrock7seal]

Is TUI maintaining 3 aircraft in CWL in 2025? I am wondering where they are getting the 2nd EXT aircraft from?

[caaardiff]

Is TUI maintaining 3 aircraft in CWL in 2025? I am wondering where they are getting the 2nd EXT aircraft from?
No signs that they are cutting any CWL schedules. The aircraft could be coming from anywhere, new Max deliveries, cuts elsewhere or another lease in for the summer season.

[Sean North]

More Ryanair expansion at Bristol...

The fault is the Welsh Government. I doubt they even want a successful airport. Doing so would hurt the environment....

[caaardiff]

More Ryanair expansion at Bristol...

The fault is the Welsh Government. I doubt they even want a successful airport. Doing so would hurt the environment....

Is it? Why?

Ryanair have expanded at CWL. On a much smaller scale but it's still growth.
This constant comparison of CWL and BRS is tiring. You don't read similar articles comparing BRS and LHR or LGW.

[runway30]

More Ryanair expansion at Bristol...

The fault is the Welsh Government. I doubt they even want a successful airport. Doing so would hurt the environment....

What you fail to take into account is the market at CWL. As one low cost airline CEO said to me, I can fill 6 aircraft in the Summer but nothing in the Winter. Serving CWL from other bases is the sensible way to match capacity with demand.

[Sean North]

What you fail to take into account is the market at CWL. As one low cost airline CEO said to me, I can fill 6 aircraft in the Summer but nothing in the Winter. Serving CWL from other bases is the sensible way to match capacity with demand.

Airlines are not even doing that on any significant scale

[runway30]

Airlines are not even doing that on any significant scale

No but what there is has been more sustainable than the based aircraft that have come and gone.

[markhillmana320flyer]

Just posted by the ever brilliant @SeanM1997 on X so credit as always to him for the information

PLAY

Reykjavík Keflavík to Cardiff. Flights start 10 October 2024

OG380 KEF 0645-0940 CWL (Mon & Fri)

OG831 CWL 1040-1340 KEF (Mon & Fri)

Should hopefully please a few of the Cardiff faithful after a thread of negativity.

[caaardiff]

New route announced:
Fly Play - Cardiff - Iceland with connections to the US.

Random dates available in October and November only, but hopefully will be made permanent in the future.

[Letsflycwl]

Nice to see and read some good news for once about CWL, be it a small programme it is still a positive !!

Be great if CWL has the same success securing SunExpress as that would be even better and most probably a longer programme of flights too.

I can see Play has been added to Wikipedia already - though Freebird are also operating for TUI this year to AYT (under their own flight numbers not TUI)…..can someone not add this onto Wikipedia too as they seem to be missed off the list.

[SWBKCB]

Random dates available in October and November only, but hopefully will be made permanent in the future.

News reports say to coincide with half-termPlay chief executive Einar Orn Olafsson said: “Our new route from Cardiff to Iceland is the first direct flight between the two destinations. Not only does this mark a milestone for Play, but also opens up exciting possibilities for customers wanting to travel to the US and Canada at affordable prices. Our new Cardiff route is ideal for families seeking to explore all that Iceland has to offer during the school half-term, as well as enthusiastic football fans eager to watch Iceland versus Wales in the upcoming Nations League later this year.”

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/play-launches-new-temporary-iceland-route-from-cardiff-45901

[caaardiff]

News reports say to coincide with half-term

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/play-launches-new-temporary-iceland-route-from-cardiff-45901

Which I do find a bit strange given that there's regular end of term and half term holidays in the UK, but you rarely here a new Airline launch a route to cater for school holidays. A one off for the football is something else, but not 6 weeks of flights.

[CWL757]

Excellent to see Play at CWL, but I find the dates and duration very odd, and if anything they restrict many potential PAX. A summer season with a proper schedule is needed if they are to gauge demand imo.

I hope I'm wrong, but I fear we'll have them for these few weeks then never see them again.

[FRatSTN]

Freebird are also operating for TUI this year to AYT (under their own flight numbers not TUI)…..can someone not add this onto Wikipedia too as they seem to be missed off the list.
Is that not a rather daft comment to make? Firstly, you could always add it yourself so long as you reference it with adequate sources. Though it would probably get deleted anyway as they operate solely for TUI in conjunction with TUI's own route network. I don't necessarily disagree it should be there, but they're not listed on any other airports wiki page either on the routes they fly for TUI.

Good to see Play trying out Cardiff, however limited.

[Letsflycwl]

See Loganair are pulling the SOU-GLA route as a result of direct competition from EZY on the same route. Also pulling the ABZ-NCL & MME flights too.

Be great if Loganair started CWL-GLA or a second daily CWL-EDI instead !!

[L1011effoh]

Be great if Loganair started CWL-GLA or a second daily CWL-EDI instead !!

I admire your optimism. Short answer, not a chance. Long answer, read the press release and the reasons for cutting services.

[caaardiff]

I admire your optimism. Short answer, not a chance. Long answer, read the press release and the reasons for cutting services.

The only possible way CWL will benefit from this is if it frees up at ATR76 to boost overall seat capacity.
Are CWL-EDI flights still booked to be the ERJ?

[MidlandsWanderer]

See Loganair are pulling the SOU-GLA route as a result of direct competition from EZY on the same route. Also pulling the ABZ-NCL & MME flights too.

Be great if Loganair started CWL-GLA or a second daily CWL-EDI instead !!

They're doing it because Loganair have been an operational shambles for the last 12 months. The cancellations will be firebreaks in the schedule or to free up an operational spare

[Sean North]

There's a nice sense of irony here. On one hand people defend Cardiff Airport by blaming it having an economically poor catchment area, whilst on the other hand celebrate a new service to one of Europe's most expensive tourist destinations.

Either these same people need to accept this new service will be a short-term disaster due to Iceland (and even the US if you're talking about connections) being too expensive for the poor people in the South Wales valleys, or accept the catchment area reason is simply an excuse and people will happily travel to an airport out of their way if the price is right and it's easy to use.

[caaardiff]

or accept the catchment area reason is simply an excuse and people will happily travel to an airport out of their way if the price is right and it's easy to use.

This is the most sensible reason.
Based on BRS masterplan that said 20% of its passengers come from South Wales, which if still accurate in 2024 is about 2m passengers.

What is unique about Play is although EZY compete to Iceland, there's no competition from BRS on flights to the US, so they may attract people from the Southwest.
This route could go either way, will be interesting to see what happens with it.

[ATNotts]

This is the most sensible reason.
Based on BRS masterplan that said 20% of its passengers come from South Wales, which if still accurate in 2024 is about 2m passengers.

What is unique about Play is although EZY compete to Iceland, there's no competition from BRS on flights to the US, so they may attract people from the Southwest.
This route could go either way, will be interesting to see what happens with it.
I would suggest that, given the short season that Play are offering, the market they believe they have identified is the short break / Northern Lights one, not the North America hub over KEF.

Its a bit of a stretch at this stage to start getting exited about USA connections which would only become a serious opportunity should the service be extended to year round.

[caaardiff]

I would suggest that, given the short season that Play are offering, the market they believe they have identified is the short break / Northern Lights one, not the North America hub over KEF.

Its a bit of a stretch at this stage to start getting exited about USA connections which would only become a serious opportunity should the service be extended to year round.

It's a bit of a bizarre schedule of random days over a 6 week period. Who know what they're aiming for? The schedule covers two big football games between Wales and Iceland but if they were just targeting them then why not just put special football flights on?
Agreed the short break market will be the primary demand for the route but it does open up new opportunities. Although when WOW operated from BRS the connections weren't all that popular.

[Letsflycwl]

With all these new routes to/from Turkey I’m surprised CWL has missed out. SunExpress, Pegasus, Corendon etc,

Turkey is a popular destination from CWL and has been for many years. I wonder if CWL have actively tried to secure a new airline like one of these?

[cymru]

Glad to see that the year on year passenger numbers (terminal/transit) were up 30% for March. From a low base granted but one of the highest figures UK wide. A few more destinations/increased frequency and I think the habit of travelling from Cardiff will return to many.