QantasLink trainee first officer...

[nigelsomers]

Hi All,

I recently finished all of my training (frozen ATPL) and have a lot of debt (discussed elsewhere!), and looked at different ways of kickstarting my flying career. Does anyone know much about how difficult it is to get a shot at the "Qantaslink Trainee First Officer" role? The minimum requirements seem quite low (but a bonus for me!). Any tips or experience would be great!

Nigel

Source - https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/qantas-careers/pilots-flight-operations.html

[brokenagain]

Offer to work for free?

[Runaway Gun]

Offer to help promote Qantaslink with exciting youtube 'How To..." videos.

[Lookleft]

Go into more debt and get an instructor's rating. Then go and build your hours teaching others. If you wait for recruiting opportunities in an airline even at the regional level you will be waiting for a while. There are currently hundreds of airline pilots driving headers and working at Woolies so the need for new pilots will take some time.

[Time Map Ground]

Hi All,

I recently finished all of my training (frozen ATPL) and have a lot of debt (discussed elsewhere!), and looked at different ways of kickstarting my flying career. Does anyone know much about how difficult it is to get a shot at the "Qantaslink Trainee First Officer" role? The minimum requirements seem quite low (but a bonus for me!). Any tips or experience would be great!

Nigel

Source - https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/qantas-careers/pilots-flight-operations.html
Hi Nigel,

If you've done an Aviation degree through a uni that has partnership with Qantas, you can apply for the Qantas Future Pilot Program, which may eventually lead to a FO position in QLink.

If not, then I think your best bet is to build experience through instructing or by flying in GA for a while before the industry recovers. For the latter, be prepared to relocated to remote regions of Australia & work a few temporary jobs (bars, cafes, servos, farms etc) whilst waiting for flying work. Basically the idea is to show them you're persistently keen to fly and willing to do whatever it takes to get a flying job.

The selection process involves a group exercise, a behavioural-based interview based on how you dealt with different situations in life, a few technical questions based on briefing an approach plate (usually the RNAV 24 into Ballina). This all takes place in day 1. I would recommend looking into the 'STAR' method of answering the behavioural-based interview questions - Situation, Task, Action, Result.

On day 2, if you pass the interviews, you'll be given a sim assessment, which is typically on the 767 sim, but this might change based on sim availability/maintenance. It involves some basic instrument flying and air work, as well as a VOR & ILS approach. Get used to reading VOR radials using an RMI only, and flying sector entries using an RMI only (push the head, pull the tail!). It would also be a good idea to brush up on your raw data flying. Configure early for the approach & slow down sufficiently before descending on the glideslope, as the sim you'll be flying will depict a larger aircraft than what you would've been flying, and will have a lot more inertia. Similarly, when intercepting radials/localisers, start turns a bit earlier due to the extra inertia, or else you might end up overshooting your target radial/localiser. Prepare thoroughly by studying the simulator study pack they'll send you prior to attending the interview & know all your attitudes and thrust settings by heart!

I would also buy the QLink interview information/preparation package off Pinstripe solutions & read through all the .pdf files.

It might take a while for you to secure the role, given the big hold file & COVID right now. But with the right mindset & a bit of persistence, you'll succeed.

All the best!

[nigelsomers]

Go into more debt and get an instructor's rating. Then go and build your hours teaching others. If you wait for recruiting opportunities in an airline even at the regional level you will be waiting for a while. There are currently hundreds of airline pilots driving headers and working at Woolies so the need for new pilots will take some time.

Do you think there is a demand for instructors now? Worried about more debt because I already have way too much debt from all of the training to date.

[mikewil]

Hi All,
finished all of my training (frozen ATPL)

No such thing as a "frozen ATPL" despite what the training provider who sucked $100K+ out of your VET funding allocation told you.

You have "Passed all of your ATPL subjects but do not have an ATPL yet".

In the same way that a PPL holder who has passed all their CPL subjects doesn't hold a "frozen CPL".

[Time Map Ground]

I'd usually refer to it as "CPL with ATPL theory credit"

[Dubya]

Why the hell would you want to be in this industry?

If you pay me $60/hr you can be my C206 FO.

[mikewil]

Why the hell would you want to be in this industry?

If you pay me $60/hr you can be my C206 FO.

I think QLink prefer command time so maybe make it left hand seat time in the 206 and call it ICUS (you could probably charge $80/hr for that) :E

[Jetdream]

I feel you are fishing for some magic answer that will get you in a turboprop/jet next week. Sorry to say mate but there isn’t one. You have a long road ahead if you want to get there, especially with the current state of the industry.

Pack your car up, set up base in Kununurra, Broome or Darwin, knock on doors and start networking. Start as a hangar rat and get a foot in the door. If not, work doing anything you can. Don’t offer to work for free.

It wasn’t unusual for guys/girls to be in town for over a year before they saw any flying work. That’s the way it is, and many have done it before you.

[Lookleft]

Do you think there is a demand for instructors now? Worried about more debt because I already have way too much debt from all of the training to date.

I recommended that pathway a little while back to a bloke in your situation and he ended up at QLink. Its also the pathway I took many years ago and I am now in the LHS of a jet. Nothing is guaranteed but as I understand the situation, instructing is still the one area of aviation that hasn't been hit badly by C19. Given the size of your debt at the moment extra for an instructor's rating won't be that much but you won't be able to put it on fee help. Your best option would be to do the rating with a school that can offer you a job afterwards. Thats my advice, others have a different view especially about instructing but from where I am currently sitting I haven't flown for a while but instructors havent stopped. Good luck and hang in there.

[Ming06]

Hi all,
Hope you all are well. i wonder is there any flying club in shanghai please? would like to fly or train in Shanghai.
Blessings
Ming

[pineteam]

No such thing as a "frozen ATPL" despite what the training provider who sucked $100K+ out of your VET funding allocation told you.

You have "Passed all of your ATPL subjects but do not have an ATPL yet".

In the same way that a PPL holder who has passed all their CPL subjects doesn't hold a "frozen CPL".

Google will disagree with you. Frozen ATPL is commonly used especially in a CV.

[Fuel-Off]

Google will disagree with you. Frozen ATPL is commonly used especially in a CV.

In Europe, yes. Because that is a qualification. In Australia, not so much. Simply because it well, isn't.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[mikewil]

Google will disagree with you. Frozen ATPL is commonly used especially in a CV.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Frozen ATPL has no meaning in Australia.

[Capt Fathom]

Frozen ATPL = Non Existent qualification. To put it bluntly, it’s a wank!

[pineteam]

Haha! But for the poor fellows just out of school any extra bits are adden into a CV. I definitely remembered having this on my CV and some other ridiculous adds on. xD
Having a frozen ATPL is still better than just a CPL. For instance, many guys in my outfit were never upgraded or upgraded later than they could cause they were unable to pass the ATPL exams.

[homonculus]

I would like to give OP some more serious advice than the definition of frozen ATPL

Objectively the pandemic will be suppressed in H2 2021 in the first world and Q2 2022 worldwide but we have permanently changed behaviour. People will come back to offices but business travel will be lower. Taxation will go up and remain up for a decade eating into leisure and therefore vacation travel budgets. In short pilot recruitment will be suppressed hard for many years.....I was one of the last schoolboys to apply for a BA scholarship. When they stopped them the following year it was going to be for 2 years. I am now near retirement......

But as someone who does no longer earns his living from flying I have seen that a degree, the ability to pass exams and the aptitude to gain qualifications stands an individual in good stead for many other jobs. Many industries will be short of people to make businesses work. Biotech has scientists but often lacks management. Hospital management is crying out for competent people. The list is long. Infrastructure is about to increase exponentially. So consider a change of industry. You can still fly recreationally or even come back in a decade.

[nigelsomers]

I would like to give OP some more serious advice than the definition of frozen ATPL

Objectively the pandemic will be suppressed in H2 2021 in the first world and Q2 2022 worldwide but we have permanently changed behaviour. People will come back to offices but business travel will be lower. Taxation will go up and remain up for a decade eating into leisure and therefore vacation travel budgets. In short pilot recruitment will be suppressed hard for many years.....I was one of the last schoolboys to apply for a BA scholarship. When they stopped them the following year it was going to be for 2 years. I am now near retirement......

But as someone who does no longer earns his living from flying I have seen that a degree, the ability to pass exams and the aptitude to gain qualifications stands an individual in good stead for many other jobs. Many industries will be short of people to make businesses work. Biotech has scientists but often lacks management. Hospital management is crying out for competent people. The list is long. Infrastructure is about to increase exponentially. So consider a change of industry. You can still fly recreationally or even come back in a decade.

Very insightful! If the pandemic occurred earlier I would have never started my training. So I'm a situation with a few others in my recent group with alot of debt and a... frozen ATPL? or "credit" (whatever the correct term is. The college use "frozen ATPL" as the term). So to consider a change of industry when I've just graduated is very soul destroying. How long were you flying in the industry for?

[nigelsomers]

I recommended that pathway a little while back to a bloke in your situation and he ended up at QLink. Its also the pathway I took many years ago and I am now in the LHS of a jet. Nothing is guaranteed but as I understand the situation, instructing is still the one area of aviation that hasn't been hit badly by C19. Given the size of your debt at the moment extra for an instructor's rating won't be that much but you won't be able to put it on fee help. Your best option would be to do the rating with a school that can offer you a job afterwards. Thats my advice, others have a different view especially about instructing but from where I am currently sitting I haven't flown for a while but instructors havent stopped. Good luck and hang in there.

Thanks for that! I have asked around and the uptake of instructors is on standby. Even though the instructors at my college were working off their feet to get us through the course. I will consider the instructor rating if all else fails... thanks for your help!

[Checkboard]

In Australia new fixed wing cpls are limited to:

Flying piston singles up north - WA, NT, QLD. The down side is that you have to be Johnny-on-the-spot (living in the town, odd-jobbing and vising the airport once a month or so to annoy them) - when the job appears which is normally due to one of the current pilots advancing (which requires the airlines to be hiring).
Flying instructing down south - NSW, VIC, WA. The downside is that you have to pay for a rating, and it's normally a zero-hour contract, so you'll need income support until you build up a student base.
In both cases - scrounging for twin hours where you can - positioning, flight tests, ad hoc charter, ride-alongs.
Being friends with an aircraft owner who would like a second pilot.

Fixed wing cattle chasing needs you to be a farmer first (knowing cattle and the country life is just as important as flying), power-line inspection is usually a side contract for companies doing something else, aerial photo cartography is usually done in twins with an experienced pilot, crop dusting needs quite a bit of tailwheel experience, and a year (at least) as ground crew refuelling and pumping chemicals...

That (in a "normal" industry, not a damaged one) goes on for three to four years, until you manage a full-time turbine job.

[Stikman]

I held a frozen CPL for 22 years.. :}

[Aussie Hornet Jockey]

You think you have debts, think of the students of Soar that are debt ridden and have nothing to show for it.

in fact one of the young students is Nerita Somers, any relation Nigel?

You are long down the list of work, so many experienced guys and girls out there.

Lot of the jet jockey I know are taking up GA cargo and instructor jobs either in the air or theory.

All I can say is keep trying but don’t expect to be in the right side of a jet/turboprop for many years.

Remember, you are in debt but you don’t pay that back until you earn a certain amount of income and then its taken from your tax anyway. So in reality its debt, but its not the same as many airline guys/girls that have debts and mortgages in the 100’s and thousands and even the millions.

So stop worry about the debt, its not as if your paying it now anyway, and even in a low paying GA job you won’t have to pay it anytime soon.

Get another job out of the industry and self fund hour building and extra ratings and endorsements then come visit flying in a couple of years, and forget about the debt you don’t have to worry about it anytime soon.

Cheers..
PS: Long time lurker, decided to join. Currently an instructor with 2OCU.

[Runaway Gun]

AHJ, lots of great advice, and relevant, but have you seen his previous posts about working for free and making youtube videos? Seems to be a high speed cheerleader arcing the fight...

Why mention your 2OCU job though?

[Mach1Muppet]

You think you have debts, think of the students of Soar that are debt ridden and have nothing to show for it.

in fact one of the young students is Nerita Somers, any relation Nigel?

You are long down the list of work, so many experienced guys and girls out there.

Lot of the jet jockey I know are taking up GA cargo and instructor jobs either in the air or theory.

All I can say is keep trying but don’t expect to be in the right side of a jet/turboprop for many years.

Remember, you are in debt but you don’t pay that back until you earn a certain amount of income and then its taken from your tax anyway. So in reality its debt, but its not the same as many airline guys/girls that have debts and mortgages in the 100’s and thousands and even the millions.

So stop worry about the debt, its not as if your paying it now anyway, and even in a low paying GA job you won’t have to pay it anytime soon.

Get another job out of the industry and self fund hour building and extra ratings and endorsements then come visit flying in a couple of years, and forget about the debt you don’t have to worry about it anytime soon.

Cheers..
PS: Long time lurker, decided to join. Currently an instructor with 2OCU.

2OCU thing is very cool!

Don't suppose you need a FO in the back seat of an F-18 who hasn't ever sat foot in them? ill even hang off the wing of an f35!

[nigelsomers]

AHJ, lots of great advice, and relevant, but have you seen his previous posts about working for free and making youtube videos? Seems to be a high speed cheerleader arcing the fight...

Why mention your 2OCU job though?

I am trying to get a break in the industry so I'm asking questions to get advice.

[brokenagain]

I am trying to get a break in the industry so I'm asking questions to get advice.

Pack your car, head north, get a job at Woolies/Coles/pulling beers, hand out resumes, settle in for the long haul and wait for a 206/210/Airvan seat to become available. It’s probably not the answer your looking for though.

[nigelsomers]

Pack your car, head north, get a job at Woolies/Coles/pulling beers, hand out resumes, settle in for the long haul and wait for a 206/210/Airvan seat to become available. It’s probably not the answer your looking for though.

That is not the issue. The issue is trying to break into the industry during covid. This was why I brought up flying for free in another post (which attracted a few haters in the private message area).

[morno]

That is not the issue. The issue is trying to break into the industry during covid. This was why I brought up flying for free in another post (which attracted a few haters in the private message area).

Then WAIT until after covid you idiot.

You’re not the only unemployed pilot out there

[Mach1Muppet]

That is not the issue. The issue is trying to break into the industry during covid. This was why I brought up flying for free in another post (which attracted a few haters in the private message area).
Just ride out the storm i think is the best bet, youre in the same boat with many others (including myself) and when travel takes off again (no pun intended), it will hopefully go back to normal!

[Car RAMROD]

That is not the issue. The issue is trying to break into the industry during covid. This was why I brought up flying for free in another post (which attracted a few haters in the private message area).


you do realise, don’t you, that the suggestion by brokenagain was a way of trying to break into the industry during covid?

or does that sound like a little too much hard work and your expecting a free and easy ride with things basically given to you?

if that’s the case, don’t even bother with aviation.

you have been given a LOT of valuable advice and tips, for free, despite holding an unpopular view of how to get into a job.
the reason it’s unpopular is because just about everyone before you has gone and done the hard yards to make it where they have in this game.
its your choice whether to take the advice of those who’ve got the experience. I’d suggest you take notice of such advice. Change your attitude a bit and you might get that break you are so desperately searching.
a hard worker (whose not willing to do it for free just to screw everyone else over), who is enthusiastic and goes above and beyond what is expected, will stand out and impress your bosses/potential bosses.


now you could just be a troll. Even so, there will be other newbies reading all this advice and hopefully they take it.
if you not a troll, the other newbies who accept the advice given throughout your threads, which you seem reluctant to accept, will likely get the jobs ahead of you.

[Time Map Ground]

That is not the issue. The issue is trying to break into the industry during covid. This was why I brought up flying for free in another post (which attracted a few haters in the private message area).
Pilots have often done many jobs outside the industry whilst waiting for flying work. This is especially relevant during a time where there is low/no demand for pilots. I have read about Qantas & Jetstar 787 pilots driving buses & Aus post delivery vans whilst waiting for things to pick up again. The idea here is to do whatever it takes to support yourself whilst waiting for the industry to pick up again, as well as using this chance to upskill & find different ways to make a living. It takes a bit of humility and courage, but it is very good character formation. Remember that pride always comes second in aviation! You've got to do what you've got to do to get to where you want to go to. Think outside the box a little bit - you don't necessarily have to be doing something in aviation right now! This is a very good chance for you to learn additional skills outside of aviation.

[megan]

you do realise, don’t you, that the suggestion by brokenagain was a way of trying to break into the industry during covid?

or does that sound like a little too much hard work and your expecting a free and easy ride with things basically given to youWas at Tamworth many years ago as a visitor when QF cadets were going through. The norm was for them to be farmed out to GA for a couple of years, two lads were assigned positions in Darwin with some operator, they refused the appointment on the basis the city was in the sticks and had no amusement facilities for the off duty hours, both Sydney boys. I couldn't believe it, the world at their feet and presented on a plate with all the trappings, wonder to this day as to what may have happened to them, dropped from the QF scheme? Sounded like a little too much hard work and they were expecting a free and easy ride with things basically given them.

[neville_nobody]

a hard worker (whose not willing to do it for free just to screw everyone else over), who is enthusiastic and goes above and beyond what is expected, will stand out and impress your bosses/potential bosses.


I would avoid putting such cliches out there in aviation. Ultimately in life that holds true however in terms of the aviation industry there is alot of luck involved, and I have witnessed some really good, well qualified pilots get screwed over whilst some pretty ordinary operators who had connections in their younger years just breeze through. In the end everyone ended up where they wanted to be, but I wouldn't say that just being a hard worker in aviation necessarily counts for anything. I think it is a myth that needs to be dispelled because it will only lead to bitterness. This becomes a bit of a issue as all airlines work along seniority lines so if your goal is to be an airline pilot once you get in there is very little you can do to accelerate your career. So getting screwed early in your career can actually have a detrimental affect on your entire life.

[nigelsomers]

Pilots have often done many jobs outside the industry whilst waiting for flying work. This is especially relevant during a time where there is low/no demand for pilots. I have read about Qantas & Jetstar 787 pilots driving buses & Aus post delivery vans whilst waiting for things to pick up again. The idea here is to do whatever it takes to support yourself whilst waiting for the industry to pick up again, as well as using this chance to upskill & find different ways to make a living. It takes a bit of humility and courage, but it is very good character formation. Remember that pride always comes second in aviation! You've got to do what you've got to do to get to where you want to go to. Think outside the box a little bit - you don't necessarily have to be doing something in aviation right now! This is a very good chance for you to learn additional skills outside of aviation.

Really appreciate that advice. I was thinking of getting a part time job in construction while things turn around. Looks like I've been told!! Not trying to offend anyone as I am clueless and hence asking.

[nigelsomers]

I would avoid putting such cliches out there in aviation. Ultimately in life that holds true however in terms of the aviation industry there is alot of luck involved, and I have witnessed some really good, well qualified pilots get screwed over whilst some pretty ordinary operators who had connections in their younger years just breeze through. In the end everyone ended up where they wanted to be, but I wouldn't say that just being a hard worker in aviation necessarily counts for anything. I think it is a myth that needs to be dispelled because it will only lead to bitterness. This becomes a bit of a issue as all airlines work along seniority lines so if your goal is to be an airline pilot once you get in there is very little you can do to accelerate your career. So getting screwed early in your career can actually have a detrimental affect on your entire life.

I wonder just how many guys like me that graduate from flight school ultimately never find any work. Do you have any idea? Or is it true that everyone eventually finds a flying gig somewhere at some point?

[717tech]

I wonder just how many guys like me that graduate from flight school ultimately never find any work. Do you have any idea? Or is it true that everyone eventually finds a flying gig somewhere at some point?
Out of six close mates who learnt to fly at the same time (and school); only two of us got jobs flying. We were the two out driving the Tractors while the others complained about no jobs....

[Climb150]

Out of 12 who started with me 3 are left. Only one is flying a jet and we got CPLs 15 years ago.
The other were out of the industry within 2 years of finishing.

[Left 270]

Can’t remember the exact numbers but out of roughly 20 only 5 are still flying and most of the others never flew professionally.

[nigelsomers]

Out of 12 who started with me 3 are left. Only one is flying a jet and we got CPLs 15 years ago.
The other were out of the industry within 2 years of finishing.

So interesting! Our flying college told us in the "information night" that after graduation, there would be a 100% employment rate within 3 months of finishing. This was pre-COVID. Definitely feel misled in the beginning!

[Climb150]

So interesting! Our flying college told us in the "information night" that after graduation, there would be a 100% employment rate within 3 months of finishing. This was pre-COVID. Definitely feel misled in the beginning!
100% employment as a pilot or just 100% employment in any job? Read the fine print.

[Stikman]

I went to a sausage factory in 1989/90. One of their big marketing ploys was to tell all us aspiring pilots that we'd all find employment within 6 weeks of graduating.

[Stationair8]

Nigel, do you believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny?

The marketing guy is only their for wage and the commission/bonus he gets for signing up suckers or potential students.

[nigelsomers]

100% employment as a pilot or just 100% employment in any job? Read the fine print.

As a pilot. At least that is what is assumed when we all attended the "pilot information night".

[Checkboard]

I learnt "modular" (lesson by lesson) at RVAC in Morrabbin in 1987/88/89. There were about 8 or so people doing the same at the same time, and 6 or so all became professional airline pilots.

The "next wave" have about half that success, I think.

... so the idea that 90% plus would "make it" may have been a "true" statement for those who wnt through training at a previous time - but may not hold true for the people they are talking to at a later time...

[Clare Prop]

As a pilot. At least that is what is assumed when we all attended the "pilot information night".

Sorry to say, you and so many others have been scammed. The guaranteed employment and pilot shortage are furphys.


THIS is the reason why so many of us are against the whole VET debacle. It lines a lot of dodgy pockets with taxpayers money by exploiting people like the OP by telling him there is an easy way, a short cut to that dream of an airline job. It creates a very uneven playing field for those schools that don't want to get involved in it. There never has been and never will be a shortcut or pilot shortage.

Over my 30 years working in this industry I have seen so many of these frauds come and go and leave a trail of disappointed, debt ridden students just like the OP in their wake, they rake up the VET money and stash it who knows where then suddenly "go bust" leaving a trail of destruction. Then someone else starts it up and off we go again. I did hear one of the local sausage factories had a proud achievement of 5% of their graduates actually ending up working as pilots, the majority were so poorly trained they were simply unemployable, even in times of good hiring.

At least you have some qualifications, many of the people who get scammed in this way end up with a file and a log book in a skip or the money supply dries up and they can't afford to go to a proper school and finish.

[neville_nobody]

Or is it true that everyone eventually finds a flying gig somewhere at some point?

I was referring to making it into airlines rather than just out of flight school. From what I have seen, if you hang in there long enough you will get a break eventually at every level in the industry as you go along. The question though is do you still want to be battling it out in GA 10 years after you started because that is a real possibility now. There already has been a thread on the subject of "is it all worth it?" I suggest you go have a read through that too.

On saying that I am of the opinion that there will be a demographic crunch in about 10 years as large scale retirements meet a lack of supply of younger pilots.

I wonder just how many guys like me that graduate from flight school ultimately never find any work. Do you have any idea?

All the guys that were serious I went through with ended up in airlines. However you have to be serious about it, if you are not and just think it's like a 'normal' job you will never make it. What personal cost are you are willing to pay I think is the question you need to ask. It will mean moving house, living where you don't want to live, poor pay and conditions strain on relationships (including family and friends) etc. Whether it is all worth it I think is become a more difficult question to answer and will probably see decrease in the number of people taking up the profession. As I alluded to earlier there is no real guarantee that your hard work actually counts for anything either.

[umop apisdn]

2011 Sausage factory graduate.


Most of us who ended up with CPLs were flying pre-rona, many in airlines or other good - great jobs around the world.


Graduates of 2013, not so much.


I think even those of 2009 struggled a lot as well.


Timing is a big part of it. Unfortunately no one can help that, and no one can predict black swan events.


Having said that, I think if any one who gave up went on to instruct, or moved up north to pull beers while waiting, then they'd all have had some luck by now. It all comes down to how much you want it.

[Konyagi]

A couple of years ago, NZALPA published a sobering research article on Pilot career progression in New Zealand. In conclusion they estimated only 29% of kiwi CPL holders, (New Zealand residents), who graduated between 2000 and 2017, were still actively flying commercially in New Zealand.
I don’t think they could account for those flying overseas, but still, not good at all. Would be very interesting to see an equivalent Australian study.