Would you do it again?

[robby239]

considering how aviation changed in the last years, would you become a pilot again? or a student pilot, considering the covid situation? would you also change the path?

[Hawker400]

I would get a career that makes money first. Then throw that money into the bottomless pit that is aviation as a hobby /side career later. (well I wouldn't now but definitely what any newcomers should do)

Flying in any context is absolutely not transferable at all to other industries and should never be a first career.

I come from a privileged background and didn't have debt and found a job soon after my training. But it's not the first time I have to pick up the scraps when the flying world stops hiring and you have no other professional experience.

[wiggy]

would you do it again

It's the "again" that's the problem...times have changed, aka "the past is another country, they do things differently there".

I've just finished a multi decade career which encompassed flying past pointy things, military jet instructing, and then onto a few decades commercially, long haul, and command on a couple of Boeing's finest...and pretty decent T&Cs.

If I could cut and paste that career path then sure, I'd probably put it on the list of recommended careers.

Anybody starting now, going straight into the commercial airline world now is looking at T&Cs heading in a questionable direction, certainly short term, in many cases multiple decades of flying variations of PBN/RNAV type approaches - not really much "slipping the bonds"....and I rather suspect seeing the advent of single pilot Ops, even on large airframes......

I'd hesitate to recommend the job now to any bright or very bright young person...I'm in agreement with Hawker..they should at least get the money first and then either fly for fun or go into the career later, accepting all that brings with it.

[awair]

In my “alternative past”/fantasy future: I...

stopped spending money on training after my PPL/IR.
tried a twin for a couple of hours, and decided to stick with singles
bought a succession of 4-seat Pipers, before moving on to a nice IFR Cherokee 6
have now decided to stick with the Piston Malibu, rather than trade up to Turbine...
have 2500 hours instead of 20k, and fly the family on holiday twice a year...

Unfortunately, my 4th wife doesn’t like flying, i drink too much and i spend too much time at work.

Some things never change!

[Bealzebub]

A lot of it is just luck but....

I would do it all (well most of it) again in a heartbeat! Flying has provided me with an excellent career and opportunities that I could never have dreamed of in any other life. It provided a great standard of living and let me bring up a family whilst providing them with excellent opportunities. I have worked for great employers and many excellent colleagues and friends. I’ve shared laughs with people all over the world, and when times were difficult, had a team to share the workload with. For over 40 years work has rarely felt like work. I’ve seen every corner of the world, which would be wonderful in Itself, but also been able to share beers and laughs with fantastic people in all of those corners.

On top of all that, it has been a privilege to also have the opportunity to encourage and develop other people coming into this career. I have seen so many people do really well as they advance their own careers. I have even had the opportunity to fly with my own children in that role. Even if I isolate the worst occurrences, it has been a privilege to be able to experience them. For over four decades I could say “we live in interesting times.”

Certainly in the last 20 years, major changes have marched over the horizon and its true to say that the career aspect has become much more difficult for a great many people. Remuneration, terms and conditions, and certainly the “glamour” has all become much more difficult and very elusive. The advent and domination of the “low cost” industry models have encouraged a standard where the expectations rarely live up to the reality. There have always been cycles within aviation, but rather like battery charging cycles, it does seem that the industry becomes weaker with each one. This current pandemic has obviously been a catastrophe for a great many people, but it will subside to reveal the next reality of the next cycle.

as I say, a lot of it is just luck!.....

[Capt Pit Bull]

Flying in any context is absolutely not transferable at all to other industries and should never be a first career.

Have to disagree. Most of the skills involved in flying are highly transferable.

[redsnail]

Would I do it all again? I would have done a few things differently. Just a couple of adjustments here and there.
Admittedly, I flew in Australia which has a different pathway. I instructed, then did bush flying, coastwatch flying, a variety of regional turboprop flying. Came to the UK, turboprop night freight flying and now, best job ever, corporate jet flying (AOC and a roster).
Would I start now? Definitely not at 55!!
I would definitely advise newbies to get some life experience so they can appreciate the "dream" versus "reality".
Not necessarily a degree per se unless you want to work for a while and gain some experience.
Personally, a decent trade/skill would be very useful and definitely something you can keep doing as a side hustle.

[Hawker400]

Capt Pit Bull

Sure they are.. Except no one gives a flying* crap about it.
*no pun intended

Pick any profession out of a hat and pretty much every soft skill you learn in an airline environment is needed.

Except the only one that actually matters. And that's the direct industry knowledge.

Time management, risk assessment, team oriented environments, multi-tasking the list goes on....

None of these will get a job outside aviation that pays even remotely close because it doesn't qualify you as any thing other than what should be expected of a well educated applicant .

There were multiple articles and even ones that were quite motivational for people to consider employing pilots but at the end of the day, why would a company hire someone without industry knowledge?

So back to my first comment and OPs question.

I would get a proper money making professional career, even if just a few years. Then burn my money flying, if it becomes a career (and yeah I quite enjoyed the past decade I put in it) then you have a plan B in you pocket that no one can take from you.

[PilotLZ]

Myself, I would undoubtedly do it again. I love flying and have always found it a worthwhile career path, even if it involves a lot of personal sacrifice and compromise with many things in life. I guess that you need to have an inclination towards it to genuinely enjoy it. Just like most wannabe doctors or teachers don't choose their professions because they're the best paid, most straightforward or anything like that. It's just what they want to be doing for a living because they find it more meaningful and satisfying to themselves than anything else.

I don't regret the path I chose, which effectively makes flying my second career. I'm also a qualified engineer, holding a decent degree and relevant industrial experience. I knowingly chose to do it that way back in the day, even though it delayed the flying by a couple of years, because I wanted to have a plan B and also a somewhat broader professional development. Even now, some years into it, I'm thinking of signing up for some form of part-time postgraduate study in finance or asset management for the sake of becoming better positioned for airline management roles.

Would I recommend a similar approach to new entrants? Totally yes. Please, please, don't get frustrated by the fact that someone is already a Captain by the age you're just starting your FO line training because he went into flight school straight out of high school. Your career is a 40-odd-year-long marathon. You will have enough time to enjoy flying and a couple of years won't make that much difference to your long-term progression. But those years, spent working on something else, can give you a lot of advantage in many ways. It's not just the hugely important plan B. Having a broad knowledge base and a well-rounded personality can open up many career doors that can be combined with flying. The vast majority of airline post holders I know have some significant background in other fields, be it maintenance, finance, management, corporate security, IT or whatever. Moreover, it will give you so much more to talk about in that first airline interview! So, don't take the present climate as the death knell of your dreams and goals. Use the time to recovery wisely and you'll end up in a much better position long-term.

[Bloated Stomach]

Never. I would go into medicine.

[dreamsdocometrue]

PilotLZ

Well said Buddy! Some common sense amid the storm

[jadrolinija]

PilotLZ

Very nicely said!

[Daddy Fantastic]

Well said DreamsDoComeTrue....me either. I would go into Law and business. Much more opportunity and there is an added bonus of not dealing with airline management! I love flying and being a pilot but cant stand the industry. I would probably fly King Airs on the side part time in a charter capacity or medevacs etc to give me my 'flying fix' and be content.

[G SXTY]

So much of this game is down to luck - and specifically luck with timing - that everyone will have different experiences. Ask 10 pilots and you’ll get 15 opinions.

Me, I’d do it again in a heartbeat. But . . .

(a) I had more than 10 years in a previous (office based) career, so know only too well the crushing monotony of a 9-5 job, not to mention the stress of the daily commute and the pressures of working with big financial numbers in a target based organisation. It gives me perspective when I consider the merits of flying for a living.

(b) I have been very, very lucky with my timing. Landing my first turboprop job and getting a foot in the door just before the financial crash, getting a jet job in the Middle East and building priceless experience when there were very few options back home, and somehow ending up a long haul pilot in a big legacy carrier, joining right in the middle of a huge recruitment bulge. And luckiest of all, being on a fleet that is not only still flying, but actually quite busy.

If the dice had rolled the other way, I might have qualified when there were no jobs, or been made redundant (more than once), or lost a fortune to a rogue flying school.

This can still be a great job (and career), but it can also be brutal. Timing is everything.

[rudder_authority]

PilotLZ

Very well said. I love flying not for the money, glory, glamor, etc. I love the subtle intricacies and dynamics of operating an aircraft. I wanted to make a career out of this interest. I wanted to join a flight school right after I finished high school. My family persuaded me to do otherwise. I'm glad I listened to them. I'm doing something similar to what you've advised.

I got a university degree and I've been working as a professional for a few years now. The intention was to build a decent plan B foundation before I tried to get into one of the cadet pilot programs available to me. Due to the unprecedented situation, that's going to be delayed for many years. Thankfully, I'll still have a source of income in the mean time.

A mate of mine went down the "modular" path after high school and is still unemployed. Another, who around the beginning of this year joined a cadet program, is also unemployed now as the program was terminated about a couple of months into the pandemic.

Sometimes things fall into place late for some of us. I hope as they say that the best things often come to those who wait! At the back of my mind, there is a thought to take up flying as a hobby. Depends on how things transpire over the next few years..

[macdo]

It is a good question, particularly as I am now recently retired.
The straight answer is yes, but with some tweaks.
I'd have got my flying started both earlier (I started at 35) in my life and at least 15 years before 9/11 and the rise of lo-co really knocked the life style of the job to bits. There is no going back, but the way pilots were treated in the mid nineties (let alone the 80's) was so much better than they are now. I'm not talking money, the money is still there if you climb the career structure efficiently. It is everything else about the job that made it special that was lost.
If I had started earlier in life I would have been able to stick to a retirement age of 55. I'm firmly of the opinion (backed by scientific research) that the airline lifestyle knocks years off your lifespan. I'm out at 61 and very glad as the deep nights were getting too hard.
I wish I had done long haul in my 20's before having a wife and family. Being away a lot is damaging to your relationships. But you have to experience LH as a 30 year SH career is simply inconceivable in the industry as it operates today.
So, on balance I'd do it all again. But quite glad that I don't have to.

[Spartaguy13]

Never. Too many sacrifices for such a low prize at the end. Now days pilot life is a low life.

[Klimax]

If the dream is to fly in the sky, listen to the sound of the engine roaring and smelling the avgas or jet A1 - the dream is still alive. If the goal in life at the age of 20 is a monetary one - look else where. Having had an aviation career so far (with another 2 decades to go hopefully) that see me living and working in two different continents (other than Europe) twice already, and having flown in a variety of airplanes and operations with all sorts if people from various cultures and enjoyed good and bad times through it all. Having lived and worked in Hong Kong a couple of times and seen other expatriate professionals, such as lawyers, bankers, doctors etc (not comparing academics) and how their lifestyle is - I would have chosen my path any day of the week.
CoS may no longer be what they used ti be - but flying a C206, a Caravan or a King Air in Africa wouldn’t have changed all that much - it beats the :mad: out of sitting in an office building with wall to wall mounted windows overlooking the Thames, counting beans or looking at the stock market on a screen. That after work beer with your pilot colleagues also tastes good - there’s still good stories to be told after a day in the sky. Horses for courses. A life in the sky is not for everybody - it does take a special character to survive.

[Klimax]

rudder_authority

And this is why flying professionally is not for everyone. For those who dreamed of flying since they could walk - or remember it at least - they will follow through and make that dream happen (subject to other life matters of course) and they are likely the ones who will survive crises' and accept the terms and conditions required to fulfill that dream. Is it always easy in aviation? Definitely not - it's mostly a learning and humbling experience - but it's also a very rewarding job in its own unique way - if you have the capacity to enjoy it, that is. I've seen plenty of "pilots" who got the licenses and then hit the wall - ended up giving up on flying (after spending the cash) - simply because they lived on an illusion of what flying is - it's not a desk job and you can't hide behind your desktop if thing don't go your way. It's not a career for anybody. If money is the primary drive or concern - then chances are that a professional pilot career is not the right job for you - you need a certain dedication and "drive" to make it all work out.

[Banana Joe]

Yes, I would. Over and over again.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

If you have the passion for it, you will always do it again, I certainly would.

[PilotLZ]

Something I am a firm advocate of is - try and get some exposure to aviation before jumping onto that zero-to-hero fATPL/MPL course. Join a gliding club. Man the reception desk at an aeroclub or a skydiving club. Try to get a summer job on the ramp of your local airport. Maybe try and ask your local agrochemical spraying company if they need someone to help out - many of the operator jobs come with the opportunity to fly in the back of the plane. If you're doing a degree, look into all sorts of options for an internship - it doesn't necessarily have to be a full year in industry, even a couple of weeks over the summer holidays would be great. This is one of the precursors towards making an informed decision which you won't regret. If it's just not the right cup of tea for you, it's so much better to find this out and re-plan accordingly before you've spent the money for the CPL rather than after it! Conversely, if it looks right for you - bingo, here's one more thing to talk about in your job interview one day. So, any aviation experience you can get prior to starting flight training is a total win-win.

[Captain-Random]

Definitely would do it all again...

After: scrubbing plates in kitchens, delivering pizza, chocolate factory, recruitment, car rental agency, Porsche, airline ops nothing compares to being a pilot for me.

Maybe because I’ve done lots of other (mainly monkey) jobs beforehand it makes me appreciate it more.

I can’t imagine I would appreciate it as much if my parents had thrown £100k at me at 18 and shipped me off to CTC, OAA etc.

[Klimax]

PilotLZ

Very, very wise and considered approach towards the pilot profession. Someone who really, really want to fly aeroplanes will appreciate all aspects of aviation and not just look towards the shiny jets.

[Klimax]

Negan

I understand your perspective - but I don't agree on it. IF flying is what you always wanted to do - and for the right reasons - I don't see the point in "wasting" (though education is never a waste as per se) time and effort in building another career before flying. Sure, it's nice and comfy to know you have something to fall back on (maybe!), but if all you want to do, is to fly airplanes - then you will succeed - no backup plan required - perhaps not always in ideal locations, sometimes you'll have to travel across the world for the job (interim), but that will all be part of the aviation times to look back at and remember. This is aviation. If you're priority in life is family only, with the need to be home in your own bed every night, and have your daily routines in place, aviation might not be suitable.

[VariablePitchP]

Worst case just pick up a 25k/year office job to keep you ticking over.

Spending three years not earning and going to university to get into 50k of debt just to have a ‘backup’ seems pretty silly. Chances are in a downturn you’ll need a backup for two/three years if that and unless you’re making 100k plus you’re far better off having just done the flight training in the first place and picking up a generic job if you need to.

And in any seniority airline the three years you spent getting a computing degree could well be the reason you’ve been made redundant and not kept the job in the first place.

If you want to spend three years boozing and chasing the opposite sex then yes uni is awesome but don’t put yourself through three years of something you don’t want to do just to have this mythical ‘backup’. How many companies are actually hiring and offering top pay in downturns? Not many...

[BobsCousin]

Klimax

Completely disagree. First of all, how on earth are you going to raise the money for a pilot licence without having a job, in which case you're building up experience in a profession while funding flight training.
Myself and most of my colleagues have been made redundant now. Some are driving trucks, some are doing nothing. I'm personally glad that I've been able to jump straight back into my old career. It's not flying, and I'm getting paid half as much for doing double the work, but at least it's enough to keep me going until things improve and I'm building up more experience for when the next crash comes in 10 years time and won't have to resort to driving trucks then either.

[Klimax]

Fair enough.
However, most pilots that I know of (including myself) took out loans to do their flight training - not by saving up first. The time you spend doing your old career, prior to flying, others spend on getting the license and flight hours. This may well have put them ahead of you on the seniority list or "flight experience list" - this may in return mean they still have a job or they will be ahead of you when things turn brighter (rehiring/hiring). It's obviously not a disadvantage to have "other" prior experience or education other than aviation - it's just not necessary to pursue an aviation career.

[PilotLZ]

Getting on the seniority list of a major airline can be delayed by multiple reasons. Luck with timing, willingness and ability to relocate, bonding arrangements, momentary perception of the benefits coming with a quicker upgrade in a non-seniority-based airline and many other factors can come into play. So, it's not granted that someone who rushed into flight training straight out of high school will necessarily be higher up the list than someone who has taken some time to learn something different before starting flying.

[Klimax]

It's not granted, true, but chances to qualify (flight time requirements if any!) are possibly higher the sooner the pilot has gained flying experience - which in most cases means the sooner he starts flight training and building flight experience (and not office experience!). Three years spend on a college degree (BA etc.) can easily be 1500h of flight time down in Africa or where ever work is found. To fly airplanes there is no benefit in having higher levels of studies or any other academic degree. This is quite clear from most airline requirements (in Europe at least).

[Lew747]

Having wanted to fly airliners since I was 9 years old, I grew up playing flight simulator, geeking out on the classic ITVV documentaries and building airfix models. Typical of many...the best part of any family holiday was always the flight! It was all I wanted to do and every decision I made from that age steered me towards that direction. From the GCSE and A-Level subjects I chose at school, joining the air cadets and getting a gliding scholarship through GAPAN. Every book, movie and magazine I owned always involved aviation. I had an absolute burning desire to fly.

I always wanted to fly airliners, But having gained my PPL from a young age I never thought it would materialise, I honestly thought I would end up becoming an FI and instructing at weekends. Something I would of been more than happy doing as I loved flying and being around airplanes. However, I was extremely lucky and echoing ‘right place, right time’, I was able to join a major European airline at the age of 25.

I say ‘lucky’ as there is always an element of luck, but also a lot of hard work and determination. I self funded my PPL and CPL/IR and studied for my ATPL’s distance learning whilst working a full time job- studying in the afternoons and weekends.


But would I do it again? YES with one difference: learn a skill set outside of aviation.

I find it an absolute privilege to go to work and fly professionally for a living. Having spent the best part of a decade saving every penny towards a modular route makes you appreciate it all the more. I had worked in a different industry beforehand, doing long hours outside in the wet and cold and it makes me never take my flying job for granted.

However, this year has made me realise more than ever how fragile the industry is. The most volatile of the volatile. I knew what I was getting into having read PPRuNe as a young teenager (there was just as much depression as there is today!) I wish I had studied for something at university or something more practical like being in the tools. I’ve worked all my life towards my goal and this year it was almost taken from me, and next year is worrying too as to whether I’ll have a job still or not. None of the skills I’ve acquired as a professional pilot will ever be of any use in the real world. A fact I’ve slowly come to terms with.

HOWEVER,

All well and good saying hindsight is a wonderful thing. But what would I have studied or learnt before embarking on a flying career when it was (and still is) my one true passion in life. All well and good asking people to get some training or another career beforehand but how can you succeed when your mind and heart isn’t set on it? I always remembered an old quote when I was studying for my ATPL’s from Will Smith...“there is no need for a Plan B as it distracts from Plan A“ :E

[Muhammad Antar]

Capt Pit Bull

Why is it then that pretty much every pilot made redundant this summer became a delivery driver? Aviation gives you zero transferable skills for use outside aviation.

People need to know what flying is really like, it’s boring, unsociable shift work that you have to pay a huge premium for the privilege of doing.

I look back 10 years at when I was in my office job in a big company in a large city, I got up at a regular sociable time, I had routine, I could make arrangements with family/friends, I had dynamic days at work where I would be constantly learning new things, attending courses, giving presentations, bettering myself on a daily basis professionally. I worked in a large office with lots of people, there were always social events going on, work sports clubs, drinks, gatherings. I was learning to fly at the time as well because I had a real passion for aviation.

fast forward 10 years, I’m LHS LCC, I know I haven’t flown much over summer, but generally speaking; the lack of routine makes fitting anything in my life much harder, the 3am starts are no doubt shaving years off my life. The times I am home I’m normally so shagged from the stupid hours I work I’m no good as a husband/father. Try looking after youngsters then set your alarm for 3am. I hardly know any captains at work, I know the FOs really well, mostly nice chaps but 15 years younger than me. I’m hardly going to go to the pub with them. The few work socials there are I tend to know so few people it’s not that fun. 99% of a normal working day I get to interact with 1 person. The environment is horrible, noise, dirt, dry air, radiation etc. The work is mundane and boring, you’ll soon realise it doesn’t matter where you fly, you’re just flying from 1 bit of tarmac to another, Belfast or Budapest, who cares? You repeat SOPs to the point where your mouth is saying them but your brain isn’t even paying attention. Yes I get paid well, less so now with COVID, but it’s such a dull life. I read about my ex-colleagues who are doing amazing things in my old company, rising the ranks, learning new skills, constantly developing and evolving and compare it to being a taxi driver. Oh and if you had a passion for aviation before flying it’ll be gone in a year or two. I couldn’t think of anything worse now than paying to sit in an aeroplane. I wouldn’t recommend this job at the best of times, now you must be mad to start it.

also in 10 years this job probably won’t exist, or certainly be single pilot. Airbus are already doing research into removing one of the flight crew.

[macdo]

Quite a common thread developing here of having an alternative income source to fall back on. I can't help but agree, we've had a decade of exponential employment growth which has followed on from 2 decades of patchy growth. Most pilots in their 30's will have only known a benign job market. At the moment there is an expectation that things will right themselves by 2023-4 and the happy times will return. I'm not so sure. The world may have turned as it does from time to time and this could be a beginning of a new normal with a lot less footfall in the terminals. Plenty of economic, environmental and behavioral reasons for the possible change of habit. I know literally dozens of pilots doing min wage jobs at the moment and have had quite a few discussions about the future. Many have said, particularly the ones over 50, that they wished they had planned for this eventuality more carefully and had a better transferable skill set.

[neville_nobody]

Many have said, particularly the ones over 50, that they wished they had planned for this eventuality more carefully and had a better transferable skill set.

Very few skilled jobs are really just part time or you are able to just waltz into after 20 years in an airline. I looked into this in my younger years once I got into an airline, and it didn't really work. I didn't have the time to become some sort of trade apprentice and just going to university and getting a degree part time wasn't going to get you a job as you then needed to go and work in an industry full time. However I was flying full time and not home a great deal. The only people who I have seen make it work are those from big family businesses or farms, or they got a trade from their father so they can come and go as they pleased, or help out for a week at harvest. If you don't have that kind of background it doesn't really work as you can never commit to anyone as you are flying full time. The only real solution was to fly part time and study then work part time. Throw in raising kids and actually doing something other than working your whole life the entire idea of a part time career just in case the airline goes broke became a bit pointless. You might have well just quit being an airline pilot and go and do your alternative career/business instead.

[hec7or]

99% of a normal working day I get to interact with 1 person.

Well, having observed the behavior of many people during this pandemic, I would say this is a positive advantage.

[sbetts]

The answer to the question depends on the experience you had, if you spent your life savings learning to fly, then ended up never getting a job - you're gonna say no.
Back in 1999, I sold my house, quit my job and went off to learn to fly, I was truly passionate about it, I'd loved everything aviation since I was a nipper - then right in the middle of my training 9/11 happened, totally screwed my (and many of my mates) plans. I stuck with it for 5 years, instructed, did air taxi, anything I could get - then one day I thought what the hell am I doing, I'm working my nuts off for less money than I was getting when I was 17 years old! and I quit there and then. That was the best decision I ever made, fortunately I had an I.T career I could sort of fall back on, I was well out of date but paid for some courses, got a job within a year. I love what I do now, I get paid well, get shares in the company, as much training as I need, 32 days holiday, flexible hours, bonus, paid overtime, home by 17:00 every day. And Im treated with respect, something that NEVER happened to me when I was flying.
Would I do the flying again given a chance - no ******* way.
But everyone has a different story, if its your dream you have to try, and who knows - it may work out.

Good luck to everyone & Happy New Year!

[P40Warhawk]

Negan

You absolutely NAILED it.

Especially the last paragraph. Many of these pilots are there just to show off to the world. Look at me,,, I am a pilot. Look at me staying in awesome hotels and living a Jetset lifestyle.

Honestly, Aviation is further away from jet set life than a trip to the moon.

I love flying. It always gives me a great feeling sitting up front. Working with this beautiful piece of technology. Carrying a big responsibility. Be on top of things, but all you said in your comment is absolutely true.

Anyway, I wish all of you happy new year and lets hope that we can go back to flying soon again. My last flight was 2.2.2020. I miss it.

[Banana Joe]

I am sick and tired of hotels. Covid restrictions probably have affected my opinion.

But yes, I reiterate I would do it all over again.

[P40Warhawk]

Would I do it again?

I think I would yes, but not in times like these.

I started flight training in 2011. In the hope 2013 the Market will be better. Which was not the case.

Started working in a small airline operating for the 2nd biggest Airline in Germany on the Bombardier Dash8 Q400 as a Flight Attendant. Then after 20 months moved on to the mainline as a FA.

All together 3.5 years working as a FA. Learned a lot in that job and the Airline was really grateful to us. It was the best employer I ever worked for in my life.
The airline went Bust.

Then worked in service on trains in DB on the ICE trains. Sucked all the way. Luckily FINALLY got my first job on B737 in an ACMI Club. Flew there 2 seasons and moved on from there to a Small ACMI company also on the B737. Worked there 6 months, and then BAM. Corona. Bye-bye flying.

But I am very hard to break, so decided to start my own business together with a business partner. It starts to develop very well and expecting to become successful this year.
In the meanwhile, as I have not much of transferable skills, I am working in one of the Big guys in Parcel Business as a delivery guy and next to it Food delivery in Takeaway as well. Just to pay the bills.

What I would suggest anyone with a passion for Aviation and becoming a pilot. Make sure you dont screw yourself with huge loans and going to L3 and such Scum clubs who rip you off. Study, work and in free time obtain licenses if you really want to become a pilot. Then you will have not so much financial stress in times like these.

My debt is not excessively high, so I can survive pretty well from my present two jobs.

All in all, if you want to become a pilot, make sure you REALLY want it. Otherwise, you waste loads of money and then you will find out that your passion was actually not so great as you thought, but then it is to late.

It is not all about flying a shiny jet. Ray Ban Aviator Glasses, Breitling Watches, having fun with Stewardesses.
It is a tough job, very undervalued by most airlines and you will be treated as such.

[PilotLZ]

One small piece of advice for those fighting an uphill battle now: never lose the long-term perspective. Everyone has hiccups in their careers. I was also not spared spending a year out of flying on one occasion. I know many, many other colleagues, excellent guys who eventually found good long-term flying jobs, who have also spent extended periods in unemployment or working other jobs for one reason or another.

It works differently for everyone. Someone has a very difficult start but progresses quite quickly and successfully afterwards. Someone else starts off swiftly enough but encounters some major setback later on. Some guys spend the best part of a decade flying part-time in GA and working second jobs, but eventually get a jet command on the fourth year of their first airline job. Others walk into a RHS straight out of flight school, but remain stuck right there for 10+ years. Everyone is different. Never suffer comparing yourself to anyone else and thinking that they did better or whatever. You're a unique case in yourself and you have your own path to follow. Don't give up and you'll eventually get where you want.

Stay strong and all the best for the New Year!

[Flyingdog84]

Well, I believe that this is a job for people that follw a dream or for daddy's son.
Pros: no idea
Cons: huge mountain of money invested, never end stress, always a new training to pay for be current or update, job instability, pay to flight jobs, every 10 years a new crackdown, salary very low....

my suggestion?
invest all the money in a good university (economy or medicine), flight at aeroclub, maybe one day buy your own airplane.

Life is real, dreams not.

wish everybody a wonderful year

[Banana Joe]

As if other fields are not in trouble nowadays:}
So why did you do it? Did you follow a dream or were you following your dad's footsteps?

Let's talk about your cons: I did modular training down to a very reasonable cost, stress is not necessarily bad (remember Human Performance), and my employer pays for the training. Even the money isn't quite bad compared to other jobs out there, if you happen to fly for a cargo outfit by pure luck even better.

If I'd never gotten a job in the first place, my opinion would have been probably very different. But one has to determine the reason for not getting a job in the first place in good times.

Just trying to shed away some negativity.

[Flyingdog84]

Peace and love dear "argue lover" friend.
Everybody have different point of view and nobody have to give you any kind of explanation as you are a normal common human like everybody here. Every post you comment is just for debate, just leave alone the community.

[Banana Joe]

It is not for debate. I am just trying to bust your negative points. Those cons aren't real, at all.

[Flyingdog84]

Maybe for you are not real, but... as the world is very big and full of people... your history is not equal for everybody.
Again, happy for you that your life is just roses and flowers, but not for everybody.
As you mentioned to remember human factors, remember also behaviour and macho attitude.

[Procrastinus]

Whilst I have enjoyed a career in avaition very much - would I do it again? - NO!

[SignalSquare]

Great fun while it lasted - but quit while you are ahead!
Architect for me next time

[wassupman]

Interesting read, definitely no one had expected 2020 end up like this.

I was wondering, How would the market look like in 2022 or 2023?

[Banana Joe]

I reckon that towards the end of the next Spring things will start picking up slowly but steadily with more vaccines becoming available. I think it's fair to assume that big players like Ryanair and Wizz will have some places for cadets in 2022. Whether you like it or not, for several reasons, there will always be places for cadets.

And if the vaccines don't work, well, we have to go back to some sort of normality at some point but that will take much longer. And I don't even want to think about this outcome.

[Bullantjet]

I can start my ATPL in March of this year, or wait a year, until 2022 and I would be finishing around June of 2023, what do you recommend to me?

[Spartaguy13]

I don't understand what people still see in this profession. (Yes I wrote profession where you get paid for what you do and not the opposite, this is not a hobby) This industry is treating pilot, cabin crew and other personnel like stray dogs.... especially pilots. Atypical employment(no guarantee for the future at all, no social rights), no respect from the management and other office people, when you actually fly rostering is just insane, disrespect of FDP (max FDP is more like a rule than exception ), bad hotels, no benefits,..... etc etc. Some pilots over here who are more down to earth ...wrote it quite realistically. For younger generations who would like to know more and join this madness, I would suggest that you ask the people who are working in this industry for max 8 years and then you will get most realistic picture how it’s like. As I said before this industry will treat you like garbage. I wonder what regulator (EASA, CAA...) is saying about this. It seems they don’t care.

[SierraTangoBravo]

Man, what is your proposal? If everyone will search the profession and consider only treatment and payment, we will have a word consisted of IT specialists solely. Do you think office people have larger salaries than pilots? Or do you think office people do nothing? people got the benfit from enjoyable activities, not only money. If you are aviation enthusiast - flying the aircraft is a benefit for you, as is. In my opinion it is better to do what you love ang get half a salary than burn out your eyes and brain it the office.

[Jammysticks]

TLDR: For those who have currently been pilots for 5+ years, are you glad you became a pilot?

I am 25 years old, and building my non-aviation career. It's a secure office job, pays the bills, I'm good at it, my colleagues are friendly, and I don't hate it. But I'm not passionate about it. It doesn't excite me. If I won the lotto, I'd quit tomorrow.

I have wanted to be a pilot since I was 5 or 6, and I went down the "Go to uni and have a plan B in case aviation doesn't work out" path. I still find myself watching every plane that flies overhead, listening to ATC on my scanner, watching cockpit videos on YouTube regularly. Aviation is the only thing I have ever been passionate about to the point of obsession. I am sure this feeling is familiar to many of you.

I am now considering building some flight hours and getting some aviation-relevant experience so that I can start properly training and getting my licenses once the industry picks up again (I'm envisioning that this will be 2024-2026, correct me if I'm wrong).

I do have a few concerns, however, and I am hoping that some of you who have been pilots for a while might be able to help.

1) Does the job get boring after a few years? From what I understand, after you've become familiar with the aircraft, routes, procedures, etc, there is little intellectual challenge or room for creativity. Have you found this to be the case, and if so, how significantly does it impact on your enjoyment of the job?

2) How realistic a possibility do you think it is that the job will be lost to automation in the coming decades? Of course, only somebody who is both a pilot and an AI expert could answer this with a high degree of certainty, but I would still like to get a sense of what the general sentiments are on this!

3) What surprised you about the job, good or bad? What might I not be factoring into my considerations here?

Broadly-speaking, I am wondering whether you are glad you became a pilot. Do you wish you took a path that was more secure, or more intellectually stimulating, or which offered more autonomy, or which allowed you to spend more time with your family or spouse? Or were you right to pursue the dream?

[Banana Joe]

I have not been working as a pilot for 5+ years, but more than 2 and I do have a full time job in these hard times and the short answer is: yes, absolutely.

1) It could happen, but then you can bid for a fleet change if your operator has more than one fleet or change employer.

2) Not happening in our life time. Not even with commercial cargo aircraft.

3) The importance of a stable roster is critically important, no matter how much you love this job.

[Jammysticks]

I resonated with so much of what you said! From the wanting to fly airliners since you were a kid, playing flight simulator, watching air crash investigation in my case (to the perplexment of my parents), building models, the best part of the family holiday being the flight, and then searching these forums as a young teenager.

In fact, it was that last thing that turned me off the career at the impressionable young age of 13. I pursued an interest in college, rather than a passion, and I am now in my second year of employment at an office job. It's bearable, but I still find myself looking up to the sky every time I hear a plane. The itch is still there.

It's great to see that you would do it again, because it means that my desire to begin pursuing this dream may not be childish or naive.

[Peter Ahonsi]

Jammysticks;

Hey man i say go for it , i am in a similar position to you. I am 24 currently working as building surveyor 9-5 role i enjoy the job but , i never stop thinking about aviation too, currently getting ready for my PPL skills test. I say go for it take the modular route and try and stay away from debt, i personally don’t have ambitions to join the airlines. From what i have heard business aviation tends to be less boring , there is a lot more hands on flying in that sector.

[snooky]

My health has been ruined by many years flying the wonderful but flawed 757, breathing in toxins from hot oil. So if I’d known, no I would not do it again, except perhaps flying a 787.

[blind pew]

My health ruined by various neurotoxins as well, last commercial flight was when I was 44..1994 but yes without a doubt. Sadly my wife has Parkinson’s from the crap sprayed around our second home in the south of france..paid for by my career.
Win some

[ollie135]

Im only 22, airline job for 6 months and now out in the cold with loads of others 😂 I went into it with my eyes wide open and luckily should be debt free in just over 2 years which hurts enough so I can only imagine how some people are feeling..... I'll be able to answer your question in about 5 years time once things have settled. With hindsight I'd have bought shares in zoom but there we go!

[excrab]

Would I do it again? Yes, with no shadow of a doubt. But for me the path to the left seat of a jet started with four thousand hours of instructing on a PPL, to single crew air taxi to tail wheel bush planes to right and left seat business jets then airline turbo props to the left seat of a Boeing. I’ve seen the sunrise in my eyes over the North Atlantic and I’ve seen it set over the Indian Ocean. I’ve waterskied with a tail dragger on unnamed rivers in New Guinea, and seen the Northern Lights, and I’ve looked down on rain forests and deserts, and I’ve done walk arounds in minus thirty centigrade and in plus fifty. None of those things could I have imagined when I was living in my parents council house and washing glasses in the local pub. Yes I’d do it again.

But as someone said earlier on in the thread, the past is another country. If I had £100k now and there was no pandemic would I spend that money on an Airbus rating to spend maybe five or six years in the right seat of an airbus then maybe thirty five years in the left, flying from Gatwick to Malaga and doing two sim checks a year and worrying about an annual medical and working anti social hours and weekends and wondering how long it would be before they invent a pilotless airbus and didn’t need me anymore. No I don’t think I would. I’d find a reasonably well paid job doing something else, I’d get a modular CPL and an instructor rating and a share in a Chipmunk, put the rest of the money down as a deposit on a house, and spend a day each weekend teaching aerobatics from a grass strip where there was a decent cafe and a bar...

However, it doesn’t really matter what I would do, or what anyone else would do. If you want to fly for a living you’ll find a way, eventually. But don’t expect that way to be either cheap or easy. It never was, and it never will be...

[blind pew]

EXCRAB
Council house...luxury....washing glass IN a pub!
Spoilt mate.
Prefab moi..collected the empty bottles from outside the pub, washed the labels off in a cold water tank on the top of an ack ack gun emplacement and filled the things up with bleach which my old man had diluted...no elf and safety. 12 years old.
9,000 hours and 20 years to get into the LHS.
Wouldn't miss it for the world. Made some good friends at the tropical medicine hospital as well.

[Jammysticks]

Because there are so few topics in this forum I thought I might throw this in here... What are people's opinion of this video on YouTube: "Should you still become a pilot | ALL STAR PILOT COLLAB | FILIPINA PILOT CHEZKA@"

(Sorry for the spamminess of sending a title - I haven't made enough posts here to be able to post a URL yet)

Basically, it's 30 minutes of various pilot influencers saying that there has never been a better time to start flight training than now. The reason? Because the market will be growing again in 2-3 years when the pandemic passes.

My issue with this is that when airline traffic does pick up again, airlines will be growing from a far lower starting point than the size they were at in 2019. So it won't be growth as such, but a slow rebound to 2019 levels. This surely means that all these jobs will go to those who were furloughed during the pandemic, no?

Is it me, or is now an incredibly foolish time for a young person to begin flight training with the expectation of being hired in 2-4 years? Do you think the people in this video really believe what they are saying? The cynic in me says that many of them don't, but that they know they wouldn't grow as pilot influencers if they told their largely young and pilot-aspiring audience to hold off on the dream for a few years.

[Banana Joe]

The problem with that video is in the title. Star pilots my arse...Especially the First Officer that calls himself Captain:yuk:

Regarding flight training, start now if you wish but do it modular and keep your day job, don't get into debt. Start at your local aeroclub and after the PPL sign up at an ATPL ground school. There is plenty of time to begin your CPL-ME-IR modules at the right time after you will have passed ATPL exams. 36 months if I remember well.

[Jammysticks]

Thanks for your response about the modular route, makes a lot of sense to me.

Regarding your other reply, I'm curious - what makes you so sure that pilotless passenger aircraft are more than 40 years away?

[Jammysticks]

Thanks for this info. I find it incredibly irresponsible that these people are telling young people to jump into aviation right now. Of course, it's up to young people to do their due diligence too, and to know that pilots are not qualified to discuss what is essentially an economic matter. Still, it's grating to see grown adults doing this.

[SierraTangoBravo]

Let me give you some point regarding pilotless aircraft.

Let's go to arithmetic and Airbus/Boeing production.

Usually aircraft model is been produced for 20-30 years. A320 from 1990 till today, 737NG from 1998 till 2019,A330 From 1994 till today.

Average airframe lifetime:

Narrowbody (320/737) - 20 years as passenger and, 10-15 more years as a freighter (if converted, like 737-400 or 737-800)

Widebody (330/747/767 (tel:330/747/767)/777) 20-30 years as passenger aircraft and 10-25 more years as freighter (if converted, like 767, 777)

Today the following narrowbody and widebody airplanes are still in production:

a320 (including NEO) - plenty of orders. Will be produced up to mid 2030-s I assume

737MAX - till the end of 2020-s it will be in production

a330-900 and a350 - pretty popular - will be produced for along time up to 2040 I believe

777-X - passenger and freighter versions will be in production for a long time (let it be 2040)

787 - popular and reliable - still enough orders - assume production untill mid 2030-s

767F - will be produced at least untill 2025-2027.

Also we should notice E190E2 and C300/A220, as well - these new models will be in production for next 10 years, at least (I assume until 2040 also)

Boeing is about to launch it's NMA program, but this is still on early stage. Let's assume it also will be 2-pilot aircraft - this roughly give us 2030 as production start and 2050-2060 as production finish for that model.(Absolutely theoretical, but let me to speculate).

Let summarize this info.

We have classic 2-pilot scheme as a "gold standard" for Airbus and Boeing (as well as Embraer). Tons of these manned aircraft are produced right now and will be produced for the next 20 years at least. Even if production of these aircraft will be ceased, they will fly up to mid 2060 (this is the worse case).

If you are 15-30 person, who are about to become a pilot, the risk to be replaced by unmanned passenger aircraft is insignificant.

[pug]

Well summarised. Without wishing to derail the thread, I think it would take a paradigm shift to even reduce the flight deck to one pilot, let alone gain the confidence of the travelling public that flying on an automated or remotely operated commercial aircraft is safe enough. I suspect it would take a century of developing land and sea based automated passenger carrying transport before there is the large scale demand from the travelling public for such air services to be viable.

I think there are more direct threats to the profession; the erosion of T&C’s paired with an ever increase in training costs - with most of the risk being picked up by the trainee. Add to that the climate change argument and the risk of far more restrictions (taxes etc) on air travel to reduce demand, will inevitably reduce the opportunities available.

I personally believe there will be a spike in demand once COVID is fully under control, it’s how long it lasts and how sustainable it is that is the question.

[G SXTY]

For those who have currently been pilots for 5+ years, are you glad you became a pilot?

Jammysticks - I’ve over a decade in a previous career, and the same again flying for airlines. I’ll try and answer your questions.

1) Does the job get boring after a few years? From what I understand, after you've become familiar with the aircraft, routes, procedures, etc, there is little intellectual challenge or room for creativity. Have you found this to be the case, and if so, how significantly does it impact on your enjoyment of the job?
Short answer, no. Crossing the ITCZ at night doing Mach 0.84 is never, ever boring. In fact I’d suggest being bored in the cruise is probably a good thing. Any job can get a bit ‘samey’ eventually, but as already mentioned, flying offers good opportunities to refresh the experience every now and then. Depending on where you end up, it may be possible to change base, seat or aircraft type. Or airline, obviously. Any of these can bring new challenges and enjoyment.

The intellectual challenge is there every time I fly, which is one reason I still enjoy the job. Familiarity with the aircraft, routes and SOPs comes with experience, but operating safely and efficiently as a crew in a highly dynamic environment is still a satisfying workout for my brain. Even now it gives me a buzz that I can jump into an aircraft with 2 or 3 other pilots who I’ve probably never met, and fly it 5,000 miles. And if the passengers find it boring, I’ll take that as a compliment.

What has changed is my perspective. When I started off I was overjoyed to have achieved my dream, and fizzing with excitement. I can still remember scraping the ice off my car at 4am and driving to work with a silly big grin on my face - and that was 3 or 4 years into the job. The novelty has long since worn off, and I could spend all day listing the downsides of flying, but fundamentally I still enjoy it; the mental challenge (see above), the views, the opportunities to travel the world and do things I’d never have done in my previous life (e.g. jungle trekking in Malaysia, snorkelling in the Red Sea, cycling across the Golden Gate bridge, dining al fresco in Rat Alley in Hong Kong...). And I’m lucky enough to have a salary that funds a decent lifestyle, even when part time.

2) How realistic a possibility do you think it is that the job will be lost to automation in the coming decades? Of course, only somebody who is both a pilot and an AI expert could answer this with a high degree of certainty, but I would still like to get a sense of what the general sentiments are on this!
I fly one of the most modern airliners out there. It can autoland but there’s a big long list of system / technical failures that will prevent it doing so. It can plan a vertical path from top of descent to touchdown, but invariably, real-world considerations (weather, traffic, ATC vectoring or speed control, etc etc) will require human intervention to manage the flightpath efficiently and safely. Interpreting the weather radar is art as much as science. And that’s before we get on to some of the more entertaining software glitches and gotchas. It’s a state of the art aircraft, but the tech has a long, long way to go before we’re flying 200+ passengers around in pilotless airliners. I’d be surprised if it happens in my lifetime.

3) What surprised you about the job, good or bad? What might I not be factoring into my considerations here?
Good stuff: The teamwork, camaraderie and social life of regional flying – still the most fun I’ve ever had at work. The fact that I never stop learning, and that I’m still enthusiastic about my job (as are colleagues with 20-30 years experience). The way aviation is an incredibly small world, and everyone seems to know (or know of) just about everyone else. The views from the office window. 1st class desserts.

Bad stuff. Fatigue. Constant erosion of terms and conditions. The lack of job security – even in an airline that until last year had never made a pilot redundant. Being checked in the sim every 6 months. The knowledge that a problem at my annual medical could mean game over. The way rostering can make or break your quality of life. The inability to attend family get-togethers unless planned a year in advance.

[arrowcapitan]

Constant erosion of terms and conditions. :} so ture !

[G SXTY]

Also of course the nature of the job has changed beyond recognition in a short time.

Fair comment. My first airline job was in 2008, and imho the industry has got worse even in that time.

A small example:

2009: 450 block hrs (full time). Regional, no night flying, few night stops. A very easy life.

2015: 750 block hrs (God only knows what the duty time was). Middle East, constant night flying, regular fatigue. Not fun.

2019: 720 hrs. Long haul, every trip is at least 1 night out of bed, circadian rhythm wonders what hit it. LHR-CHS, 2 days off, LHR-NRT, 2 days off, LHR-MAA? No problem because EASA says it's legal.

I'm now part time, which has restored my enthusiasm (not to mention quality of life). Before COVID, my part-time (75%) block hours would have been around 450-500 per year - i.e. what I was doing full time when I started. There's progress for you.

Other opinions are available; the best advice I could give any wannabe is to ask as many questions as possible, to as many people as they can, and make up their own mind if this is a career for them.

[Banana Joe]

Long haul and regional is a bit like comparing apple to oranges though. At my lot, the quality of life on the long haul fleet is quite good. 3,5 trips on average per month, with a decent amount of days off between duties. 600-650 hours per year.

[nickler]

Very interesting thread. My answer is no, and I will explain why.

25 years as an airline pilot, of which 20 in the middle East, 16 as a widebody Captain. I can confirm all the pros and cons given before by previous posters.
End of 2019 I resign from my employer to relocate to the Old Continent, LHS for a big LCC, decided on a comfortable start date in April just to take a few months off to move back from the sandpit, relax a bit and get ready to start the new adventure. March 2020, hello Covid, joining is cancelled but don't worry we'll call You soon. Chaos explodes, thousands of pilots are made redundant worldwide, HR stops replying and finally comes back with something like "well it's messy my friend, good luck !"
Time goes by, no-one is hiring, recency expires, no last flight within 12 months to apply for one of the very few jobs around the world and all the jobs are on the A320, which I hadn't flown for 20 years (although I have about 14k hours on A330/340/380).
I've got dozens of former colleagues in my position. Just find me another field where this could have happened.

[ICEHOUSES]

So you’ve not worked or payed income taxes in the new continent you have moved to for 16 years, all of a sudden when it suits you, you expect the red carpet to be rolled out and LHS jet job to be given to you on a plate ahead of possibly command ready FO’s, and then moan to us all when it doesn’t work out. These things happen in life mate, do something different career wise if you don’t like aviation anymore and it doesn’t go your way all of the time.

[nickler]

The heck You talking about ? LCC’s hire DECs in addition to the huge amount of internal upgrades and cadets they train on a daily basis. It’s just they can’t (well couldn’t) cope with the demand of training.
I wasn’t paying income taxes in Europe because I wasn’t living in Europe, nor was my family.
Anyhow my point was that no-one gives a damn fix in our industry when it comes to send people home. I acted responsibly, left my job for another one and got screwed. If you think that this is just the way it goes than I realize why our industry has come to such terms and conditions.

[Flying Clog]

I agree with Icehouses. We went East as mercenaries, to the Far East in my case. I'm not expecting any special treatment when I return to Europe, jumping the queue into the left seat.

9 years from PPL to tax free wide body command as well in Nickler's case... I think he might have used up his share of luck.

Go find something else to do. This industry is buggered anyway.

[nickler]

The amount of stupidity of some posts is puzzling.
Point 1 I did not get any "special treatment". In 2019 Airline X was advertising for Direct entry Captains, I applied, went to the interview, passed it, got the contract, got it cancelled because of covid. Fair enough ? If You don't want DECs joining then go complain to airline managers.
Point 2 from PPL to Widebody command it took many more years, but this is completely irrelevant. I started 25 years ago RHS in a charter lot, then moved to the sandpit and ended up staying there 20 years. There is no luck involved mate, just using wisely the opportunities you are given in life and making informed decisions. I am no special case, tons of other colleagues have followed the same path, but for those who look from the outside it is far easier to talk about "luck" rather than hard work and commitment; it's always the same story.
The industry is treating us like garbage, people get fired and replaced within a few weeks with cheaper more desperate commodities. Again if You think this is the way it should be then I understand we have no future whatsoever.

[banterbus]

I wouldn't change much. Different for me compared to a lot on this thread, joined the RAF which was brilliant, in most ways. Certainly for life experience and employability outside aviation. On the whole loved seeing a lot of the world, and flying in some of the most dynamic situations you can really find yourself in whilst flying these days.

Transitioning to the airlines was reasonably straightforward, but only have one company to base my experiences on, and they've been great to be honest!

Unfortunately there is quite a lot of luck involved; I've been lucky with timing both with joining the RAF and with joining an airline pre-COVID.

[iome]

100% Yes Through the ups and downs. I'll go through the same :mad: again.

This path took me to wonderful places, I met wonderful colleagues, I met my love, gave me more money that I needed to enjoy life and when I sit in that seat all worries and problems disappear and I'm left to enjoy the wonderful views and challenges ahead.

[Banana Joe]

Yes, I would do it again, and personally I am optimistic for the upcoming opportunities we might possibly have in the future when things do pick up.

[arrowcapitan]

I would do it again .... as long as the conditions improves post covid ...

[no sponsor]

I wouldn’t do it again. Completely cocked up my life.

[Flymed54]

Not a chance